seriously?

[Pepsi Jedi]

How is two jet engines heavy armor and a gun only 340 lbs. Rediculous. It isnt the heaviest but is heavier than standard armor and has actuators.

Okay so 340lbs to 1600 lbs and speeds?

*Points to RUE* Page 240.

I didn't write it. To be fair it says "With out rail gun" as the weight. But even with a gun it' snot going to near the other. And you're --literally-- using a dragon that hatched like minutes before to have the 1600lbs. Again with in a few weeks they're 24 tons, or 48,000lbs

When a car is whippng down the street at and hits the corgi does the car's wheel suddenly shatter and explode? Does the drive train get ripped out?

Or does the dog get splattered to a greater or lesser degree?

At most you might crack a bumper, but that dog is toast. And the car doesn't have -supernatural strength-

Guy in power armor 340lbs.... vs Dragon that's an absolute minum of 4 tons if he was born minutes ago, or 24+ tons if he's a few weeks old. So in reality it's more like a tank smearing into a line backer. That line backer might be pretty tough but he's not going to scratch the paint on the tank. At best you'll need a squeegie

[dragonfett]

How is two jet engines heavy armor and a gun only 340 lbs. Rediculous. It isnt the heaviest but is heavier than standard armor and has actuators.

Okay so 340lbs to 1600 lbs and speeds?

Look at the Glitter Boy clocking in at 1.2 tons fully loaded. Exactly what does fully loaded mean? Depends on which rule book you have. The original GB from the RMB only had 100 rounds, and while no official weight is given, but speculation puts it between 10 lbs or more. Now at 10 lbs, the original RMB version of the GB carried 1000 lbs of ammo (or .5 tons of ammo), which left .7 tons to the suit, unrealistic given how super dense their armor supposedly is, but at least it's a positive number, unlike the RUE's version (which must be a typo that became canon), because then that same ammo weighs 5 tons, or nearly 5 times the weight of the suit of power armor that is supposed to be carrying it. Nobody ever said Palladium made a whole lot of sense...

[Pepsi Jedi]

Nobody ever said Palladium made a whole lot of sense...

Quite right.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Just for some numbers on the weight issue (using only RUE for some generic numbers unless we get more specifics) ...

RUE, page 240: SAMAS weighs 340 pounds without the rail gun. The rail gun weighs 92 pounds. The Ammo-Drum weighs 190 pounds. This is 622 pounds total.

That's not counting the pilot. According to the USMC, the average soldier is 180 pounds. Let's say the pilot weighs above average at 228 pounds for a total of 850 pounds.

RUE, page 158-159: The "typical hatchling" weighs 4-8 tons (page 158, under "Size"). A hatchling will reach 80% of its full size within 3D4 weeks and this will last until they're 600 years old (page 159, under "Hatchling's Size"). Considering the duration of that size (almost a full 600 years compared to the max of 12 weeks smaller), this probably details the "typical" listed previously. When born, a Hatchling is 1/3 it's "mature size."

So, if 4-8 tons is 80% of the full size, then 5-10 tons is mature size. When a hatchling is a newborn, it'll be 1/3 of 5-10 tons. So the smaller sized dragon will be 1.65 tons (3,300 pounds) fresh out of the egg. If the hatchling wanted to use its Metamorphosis to further reduce its size, it can reduce it by an extra 50%. So the smallest you'll probably ever find a dragon (which is a newly hatched dragon using metamorphosis to further reduce its size) is .825 tons (or 1,650 pounds), which is still about twice the weight of a SAMAS (counting weapons, ammo, and pilot).

Since we're been using size comparisons, SAMAS against a hatchling that's only a few seconds old and is intentionally making itself smaller is about the same as me throwing my body (about 165) against the average sumo wrestler. More realistically, the SAMAS is going up against something that weighs 3.8x its weight (still on the small end for dragons) or more.

The speed of the SAMAS also came up though. If this is adding to the force hitting the dragon, then we're not discussing Body Block/Tackle, as speed has no factor. In Rifts, the main thing I can think of that applies to speed (and also relates to this situation) is collision damage. That's 1D4 per 10 miles an hour (RUE, page 356). We've been told the SAMAS was flying "several times faster" than the dragon. Dragon speeds are variable, but can be slow as 15 mph, but I think 60 to 100 mph is more common. So without knowing the specific species and character stats, I'm thinking 60 mph is rather fair. The dragon's speed isn't very relevant to the equation though, other than figuring out the speed of the SAMAS. The SAMAS has a max speed of 300 mph. While I find Palladium generally considers "several" to be 7 to 15 (using Presence Sense psionic power, RUE page 175 as my base), I'm thinking that's not the intent here (as a SAMAS probably can't get that fast). Could be max speed of 300, but let's just say 200 (for a lower estimate at the moment).

So the speed would inflict 20D4 damage. So that's potentially 50 damage. The book doesn't state S.D.C., M.D.C., or whichever is applicable. If it's S.D.C., not much harm done. If it's M.D.C., then that's average around 50 M.D.C. ... to both parties. The SAMAS wings (30 M.D.C. each, per RUE page 240) would be ripped off. Still operational, but can no longer fly. The pilot also takes damage per RUE page 356. At 200 mph, that's 6D4 (or 7D4 depending on interpretation) and 100% chance of being stunned (98% chance if we cap it). Probably still alive, but suffering a few bumps, bruises, dazed, and now grounded (note, I only applied crash damage once, for the collision with the dragon, not for the collision and then crashing into the ground while stunned). The Dragon Hatchling is hurt, but survives (all the Hatchlings I saw in RUE had over 100 M.D.C. even on minimum rolls). We have to make a house rule on breaking legs, but I wouldn't be opposed to said result if we're ruling crashes inflict M.D.C.

Anyways, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In short you're not reading the distinctions correctly.

Greetings and Salutations. Just for some numbers on the weight issue (using only RUE for some generic numbers unless we get more specifics) ...

RUE, page 240: SAMAS weighs 340 pounds without the rail gun. The rail gun weighs 92 pounds. The Ammo-Drum weighs 190 pounds. This is 622 pounds total.

That's not counting the pilot. According to the USMC, the average soldier is 180 pounds. Let's say the pilot weighs above average at 228 pounds for a total of 850 pounds.

I did stipulate it was the weight of the PA with out the gun. But no where does it say it's with out the pilot.

RUE, page 158-159: The "typical hatchling" weighs 4-8 tons (page 158, under "Size")

WHEN HATCHED.

They then undergo a dramatic growth spurt, as directly stipulated in the same pages.

A hatchling will reach 80% of its full size within 3D4 weeks and this will last until they're 600 years old (page 159, under "Hatchling's Size").

Yes and this is where you start to go wrong. They're born at 4 to 8 tons, and then grow to 80% of their full size in 3D4 weeks.

Considering the duration of that size (almost a full 600 years compared to the max of 12 weeks smaller), this probably details the "typical" listed previously. When born, a Hatchling is 1/3 it's "mature size."

Clearly not true, 1) That's not how it reads. 2) There's direct quotation about 'Depending on when people meet up with a new dragon hatchling they might see a shocking growth over the next few weeks" line. *not direct quote, but it's on the same pages there. and 3) We have adult dragon weights. Which is not 12 tons but instead 30.

So, if 4-8 tons is 80% of the full size, then 5-10 tons is mature size.

That's not how it reads though, and again we have weights for adult dragons. You're confusing birth weight with the dramatic growth spurt they undergo in their first weeks of life.

When a hatchling is a newborn, it'll be 1/3 of 5-10 tons.

That's not how it reads at all. You're taking an inaccurate reading and trying to reverse engineer a smaller number. But it's based on an inaccurate premise.

So the smaller sized dragon will be 1.65 tons (3,300 pounds) fresh out of the egg. If the hatchling wanted to use its Metamorphosis to further reduce its size, it can reduce it by an extra 50%. So the smallest you'll probably ever find a dragon (which is a newly hatched dragon using metamorphosis to further reduce its size) is .825 tons (or 1,650 pounds), which is still about twice the weight of a SAMAS (counting weapons, ammo, and pilot).

But again this isn't correct, and Dragons can metamorph down to cat size but that's not the point. Your math is way off due to inaccurate reading.

Since we're been using size comparisons, SAMAS against a hatchling that's only a few seconds old and is intentionally making itself smaller is about the same as me throwing my body (about 165) against the average sumo wrestler. More realistically, the SAMAS is going up against something that weighs 3.8x its weight (still on the small end for dragons) or more.

Your math is off by an astounding level but reguardless that sumo would need to have Supernatural strength as well.

The speed of the SAMAS also came up though. If this is adding to the force hitting the dragon, then we're not discussing Body Block/Tackle, as speed has no factor. In Rifts, the main thing I can think of that applies to speed (and also relates to this situation) is collision damage. That's 1D4 per 10 miles an hour (RUE, page 356).

Here again you start to go wrong. Page 356 of the RUE doesn't say that.
I it doesn't say 1D4 per 10MPH.

It says1D4 for every 20mph over 50mph

BUT and this is the important part. It's not pertaining to MD things crashing into one another. It's pertaining to the ___SDC___ of the pilot in said crashes, -inside- the armor. So while it would pertain to the poor guy inside the samus, it doesn't pertain to the dragon at all. SDC unless it's over 100 at a time, wouldn't scratch the dragon scales.

You're misrepresenting the rules on the page. 1) With inaccurate numbers and 2) That it's pertaining to situations when pilots/armor wearers sustain damage -with in the armor-.

We've been told the SAMAS was flying "several times faster" than the dragon. Dragon speeds are variable, but can be slow as 15 mph, but I think 60 to 100 mph is more common. So without knowing the specific species and character stats, I'm thinking 60 mph is rather fair. The dragon's speed isn't very relevant to the equation though, other than figuring out the speed of the SAMAS. The SAMAS has a max speed of 300 mph. While I find Palladium generally considers "several" to be 7 to 15 (using Presence Sense psionic power, RUE page 175 as my base), I'm thinking that's not the intent here (as a SAMAS probably can't get that fast). Could be max speed of 300, but let's just say 200 (for a lower estimate at the moment).

So the speed would inflict 20D4 damage. So that's potentially 50 damage. The book doesn't state S.D.C., M.D.C., or whichever is applicable.

Actually it very much does, it stipulates SDC or hit points, to the person inside the armor. That's what the section is about.

If it's S.D.C., not much harm done. If it's M.D.C., then that's average around 50 M.D.C. ... to both parties.

Only if 2 power armor pilots are ramming one another, but in this instance the PA pilot is ramming an MD creature. Taking 50 points to his SDC/Hitpoints is likely to be pretty painful as he splashes off the inside of that armor decelerating from 200mph to nothing PDQ

The SAMAS wings (30 M.D.C. each, per RUE page 240) would be ripped off. Still operational, but can no longer fly. The pilot also takes damage per RUE page 356. At 200 mph, that's 6D4 (or 7D4 depending on interpretation) and 100% chance of being stunned (98% chance if we cap it). Probably still alive, but suffering a few bumps, bruises, dazed, and now grounded (note, I only applied crash damage once, for the collision with the dragon, not for the collision and then crashing into the ground while stunned).

Technically you're not applying the correct damage in any fashion. If you're going to give crash damage for him doing 200mph it would be 200-50= 150/20 which would be 7.5. So it would be 7D4 or 8d4. But not the 20d4 you said above as you were using the wrong numers. And if we ARE going to go on this route, the pilot would surely suffer fall damage as well. which is 1SDC/HP per 20 ft of fall.

The Dragon Hatchling is hurt, but survives (all the Hatchlings I saw in RUE had over 100 M.D.C. even on minimum rolls). We have to make a house rule on breaking legs, but I wouldn't be opposed to said result if we're ruling crashes inflict M.D.C.

The dragon (Via the rule's your citing) is not hurt. 1) He's not an SDC squishy inside PA, and 2) he IS a MDC creature by nature. 50SDC wouldn't scratch him. 99 SDC wouldn't scratch him.

Anyways, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys for now.[/justify]

Sadly while you clearly put work into the post it's wrong on a number of factors and the pages cited don't.... say what you say that they say.

I appreciate the attempt but you're way off.... pretty much from start to finish.

[Zer0 Kay]

How is two jet engines heavy armor and a gun only 340 lbs. Rediculous. It isnt the heaviest but is heavier than standard armor and has actuators.

Okay so 340lbs to 1600 lbs and speeds?

*Points to RUE* Page 240.

I didn't write it. To be fair it says "With out rail gun" as the weight. But even with a gun it' snot going to near the other. And you're --literally-- using a dragon that hatched like minutes before to have the 1600lbs. Again with in a few weeks they're 24 tons, or 48,000lbs

When a car is whippng down the street at and hits the corgi does the car's wheel suddenly shatter and explode? Does the drive train get ripped out?

Or does the dog get splattered to a greater or lesser degree?

At most you might crack a bumper, but that dog is toast. And the car doesn't have -supernatural strength-

Guy in power armor 340lbs.... vs Dragon that's an absolute minum of 4 tons if he was born minutes ago, or 24+ tons if he's a few weeks old. So in reality it's more like a tank smearing into a line backer. That line backer might be pretty tough but he's not going to scratch the paint on the tank. At best you'll need a squeegie

A: this was done during RMB.
B:point all you want my books are packed.
C: or MONTHS ago up to 2 plus some days so NOT literally minutes ago
D samas is not a corgi to a monts old pre growth spurt dragon. More like a deer to a vw bug.

[Zer0 Kay]

Greetings and Salutations. Just for some numbers on the weight issue (using only RUE for some generic numbers unless we get more specifics) ...

RUE, page 240: SAMAS weighs 340 pounds without the rail gun. The rail gun weighs 92 pounds. The Ammo-Drum weighs 190 pounds. This is 622 pounds total.

That's not counting the pilot. According to the USMC, the average soldier is 180 pounds. Let's say the pilot weighs above average at 228 pounds for a total of 850 pounds.

RUE, page 158-159: The "typical hatchling" weighs 4-8 tons (page 158, under "Size"). A hatchling will reach 80% of its full size within 3D4 weeks and this will last until they're 600 years old (page 159, under "Hatchling's Size"). Considering the duration of that size (almost a full 600 years compared to the max of 12 weeks smaller), this probably details the "typical" listed previously. When born, a Hatchling is 1/3 it's "mature size."

So, if 4-8 tons is 80% of the full size, then 5-10 tons is mature size. When a hatchling is a newborn, it'll be 1/3 of 5-10 tons. So the smaller sized dragon will be 1.65 tons (3,300 pounds) fresh out of the egg. If the hatchling wanted to use its Metamorphosis to further reduce its size, it can reduce it by an extra 50%. So the smallest you'll probably ever find a dragon (which is a newly hatched dragon using metamorphosis to further reduce its size) is .825 tons (or 1,650 pounds), which is still about twice the weight of a SAMAS (counting weapons, ammo, and pilot).

Since we're been using size comparisons, SAMAS against a hatchling that's only a few seconds old and is intentionally making itself smaller is about the same as me throwing my body (about 165) against the average sumo wrestler. More realistically, the SAMAS is going up against something that weighs 3.8x its weight (still on the small end for dragons) or more.

The speed of the SAMAS also came up though. If this is adding to the force hitting the dragon, then we're not discussing Body Block/Tackle, as speed has no factor. In Rifts, the main thing I can think of that applies to speed (and also relates to this situation) is collision damage. That's 1D4 per 10 miles an hour (RUE, page 356). We've been told the SAMAS was flying "several times faster" than the dragon. Dragon speeds are variable, but can be slow as 15 mph, but I think 60 to 100 mph is more common. So without knowing the specific species and character stats, I'm thinking 60 mph is rather fair. The dragon's speed isn't very relevant to the equation though, other than figuring out the speed of the SAMAS. The SAMAS has a max speed of 300 mph. While I find Palladium generally considers "several" to be 7 to 15 (using Presence Sense psionic power, RUE page 175 as my base), I'm thinking that's not the intent here (as a SAMAS probably can't get that fast). Could be max speed of 300, but let's just say 200 (for a lower estimate at the moment).

So the speed would inflict 20D4 damage. So that's potentially 50 damage. The book doesn't state S.D.C., M.D.C., or whichever is applicable. If it's S.D.C., not much harm done. If it's M.D.C., then that's average around 50 M.D.C. ... to both parties. The SAMAS wings (30 M.D.C. each, per RUE page 240) would be ripped off. Still operational, but can no longer fly. The pilot also takes damage per RUE page 356. At 200 mph, that's 6D4 (or 7D4 depending on interpretation) and 100% chance of being stunned (98% chance if we cap it). Probably still alive, but suffering a few bumps, bruises, dazed, and now grounded (note, I only applied crash damage once, for the collision with the dragon, not for the collision and then crashing into the ground while stunned). The Dragon Hatchling is hurt, but survives (all the Hatchlings I saw in RUE had over 100 M.D.C. even on minimum rolls). We have to make a house rule on breaking legs, but I wouldn't be opposed to said result if we're ruling crashes inflict M.D.C.

Anyways, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Nope you've been told that the samus was at full speed

[Prysus]

In short you're not reading the distinctions correctly.

Greetings and Salutations. Possible, though I can't find most of your points that you're saying are there, so if I am blind (might be the case) maybe you can help point me in the right direction.

I did stipulate it was the weight of the PA with out the gun. But no where does it say it's with out the pilot.

True, but Dead Boy armor says it weighs 18 pounds. Think that's counting the wearer? Dog Boy Light Riot Armor weighs 8 pounds. Think that counts the wearer? For 340 to count the pilot, every pilot would need to weigh the exact same, which is unlikely, and Palladium would have to count the wearer for that instance but then not do so for every other instance. Possible, though I find this unlikely.

RUE, page 158-159: The "typical hatchling" weighs 4-8 tons (page 158, under "Size")

WHEN HATCHED.

The full quote reads: "However, the true size of the typical Dragon Hatchling, from snout to tail tip, is 30 feet (9.1 m), and 4-8 tons!"

So I guess that would depend if we view "when hatched" as the typical Hatchling. I, personally, believe that a 600 period represents a more typical hatchling as opposed to the 3-12 week period.

They then undergo a dramatic growth spurt, as directly stipulated in the same pages.

I'll agree this part is stated. Now what Palladium considers "dramatic" is where we're disagree so far. Note: I cut out the next small response as I believe I'd simply repeat the above quote, which seems needless at this current junction. If you feel I left out something important, I can re-address it.

Considering the duration of that size (almost a full 600 years compared to the max of 12 weeks smaller), this probably details the "typical" listed previously. When born, a Hatchling is 1/3 it's "mature size."

Clearly not true, 1) That's not how it reads. 2) There's direct quotation about 'Depending on when people meet up with a new dragon hatchling they might see a shocking growth over the next few weeks" line. *not direct quote, but it's on the same pages there. and 3) We have adult dragon weights. Which is not 12 tons but instead 30.

1: Okay, an exact quote then: "The Hatchling is born one-third its mature size and does not reach full maturity until it is 600 years old."

To me, this reads that it's 1/3 it's mature size. And it also tells us the maturity is after 600 years old. I'm not sure what different interpretation you'd have of "one-third its mature size"?

2: The book does say this. For me, going from 33% its mature size to 80% its mature size in a few weeks is rather shocking/dramatic (that's about 2.5x the size of when you meet it a few weeks ago). This will really be a matter of opinion though.

3: If you mean in Conversion Book One (revised and original), I'm not going to argue that. Those are different dragons though. If you mean in RUE, all it really says for Dragon size is "increase physical size by 20%." If there's an actual adult size listed for RUE dragons, I'll be interested. I'd contend that the RUE dragons are different, and in this case smaller than the Conversion Book One dragons (which Palladium tried to move away from in an attempt to try and keep their IP separate, or at least I believe that was their reasoning).

That's not how it reads at all. You're taking an inaccurate reading and trying to reverse engineer a smaller number. But it's based on an inaccurate premise.

I'm providing exact quotes. If you feel I'm misreading the exact quotes, I'd appreciate a clarification. For the record, I'm not contending RUE somehow erases everything from Conversion Book One, but I also don't believe the examples of different dragons from RCB1 makes what's printed in RUE invalid for the dragons contained within.

And, for the record, I had been mainly curious to see how small I could get a dragon to see if the SAMAS would be close. The smallest I could get it (using the smallest weight and then reducing it further) to go was still putting me as a the SAMAS and the newborn dragon hatchling with reduced size as a sumo wrestler. I don't think that collision would go well for me.

But again this isn't correct, and Dragons can metamorph down to cat size but that's not the point. Your math is way off due to inaccurate reading.

True, but I that involves changing into a different form entirely. I was using the version that lets them stay in dragon form. Of course, I'm not entirely sure that the Size modifier on page 158 would affect weight. Typically when a dragon metamorphs they retain their weight. However, I went with a more liberal reading to see if I could find a good reasoning for the SAMAS being considered equal (I did not).

Your math is off by an astounding level but reguardless that sumo would need to have Supernatural strength as well.

Agreed. Though I think either way I'm coming out of the contact hurting pretty bad.

Here again you start to go wrong. Page 356 of the RUE doesn't say that.
I it doesn't say 1D4 per 10MPH.

It says1D4 for every 20mph over 50mph

You are correct on two accounts.

1: Page 356 doesn't say that. Well, it does say your part, but not what I said. I was flipping pages and typed the wrong one. I meant to reference was ...

2: Page 345 mentions damage per 10 mph. However, it's 2D4, so I was wrong there as well. This is in the "Damage" section (starts on page 344) under "Miscellaneous." It does not state whether it's S.D.C. or M.D.C. I'd say this is logically S.D.C. So even at 200 mph (40D4), this might inflict 1 M.D. total. However, since I was (in part) seeing if I could find justification for the ruling, I went with a more liberal application of the damage to doing M.D. in an M.D.C. on M.D.C. crash. I do not, personally, believe this is the correct ruling. However, I wanted to take this from multiple different viewpoints.

BUT and this is the important part. It's not pertaining to MD things crashing into one another. It's pertaining to the ___SDC___ of the pilot in said crashes, -inside- the armor. So while it would pertain to the poor guy inside the samus, it doesn't pertain to the dragon at all. SDC unless it's over 100 at a time, wouldn't scratch the dragon scales.

You're misrepresenting the rules on the page. 1) With inaccurate numbers and 2) That it's pertaining to situations when pilots/armor wearers sustain damage -with in the armor-.

Wasn't an attempt to misrepresent. I typed the wrong page number. I did intend to reference page 356 for damage to the pilot (which I discussed in the overall outcome). For the record, I'm going to just cut out your next few responses as I'm not going to disagree with the 356 rule, and I addressed my page error above (everything else will be just repeating several times).

Sadly while you clearly put work into the post it's wrong on a number of factors and the pages cited don't.... say what you say that they say.

I appreciate the attempt but you're way off.... pretty much from start to finish.

Well, I definitely admit I typed the wrong page number and wrong value (2D4 per 10 mph is the actual number on page 345). I'm not convinced about your dragon sizes yet. If I had to make a guess, you're taking your impressions from RCB1 and not giving RUE section on dragons a proper reading. I could be wrong though. Like I said, I'd be curious to your interpretation of what "one-third its mature size" would mean other than 1/3 of its mature size or why 1 day old would be considered a "typical" dragon hatchling. How about this: What is the size listed for an adult Cat's Eye Dragon? Because I don't believe that's listed in RCB1, so I'd be interested to see how you get your results. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. So I just saw the posts from Zer0 Kay as I typed. If this is during RMB, never mind. RCB1 dragons are definitely the source. So yup, much bigger.

[iteration27]

wheres the law around here? theres been a hijacking lol
oh well R.I.P OP.

[Pepsi Jedi]

How is two jet engines heavy armor and a gun only 340 lbs. Rediculous. It isnt the heaviest but is heavier than standard armor and has actuators.

Okay so 340lbs to 1600 lbs and speeds?

*Points to RUE* Page 240.

I didn't write it. To be fair it says "With out rail gun" as the weight. But even with a gun it' snot going to near the other. And you're --literally-- using a dragon that hatched like minutes before to have the 1600lbs. Again with in a few weeks they're 24 tons, or 48,000lbs

When a car is whippng down the street at and hits the corgi does the car's wheel suddenly shatter and explode? Does the drive train get ripped out?

Or does the dog get splattered to a greater or lesser degree?

At most you might crack a bumper, but that dog is toast. And the car doesn't have -supernatural strength-

Guy in power armor 340lbs.... vs Dragon that's an absolute minum of 4 tons if he was born minutes ago, or 24+ tons if he's a few weeks old. So in reality it's more like a tank smearing into a line backer. That line backer might be pretty tough but he's not going to scratch the paint on the tank. At best you'll need a squeegie

A: this was done during RMB.
B:point all you want my books are packed.
C: or MONTHS ago up to 2 plus some days so NOT literally minutes ago
D samas is not a corgi to a monts old pre growth spurt dragon. More like a deer to a vw bug.

A; I was citing the book, an RUE has been out for well over a DECADE. I'm sorry but I'm not citing a source from another book another decade older than that.
B: Then arguing rules might not be the best thing to do if you can't look um up.
C: I have no idea what you're talking about
D: No. The Dragon goes through it's growth spurt in those first few months... and the weight was a direct correlation. I looked up how much a car weighed. Reduced the dragon's weight down to that of a car. (Roughly a factor of 10) So I reduced the Samus down by the same factor. I then googled dogs that weighed 34 lbs and came up with Corgi.

So yes.. it's like a corgi getting hit by a sedan.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In short you're not reading the distinctions correctly.

Greetings and Salutations. Possible, though I can't find most of your points that you're saying are there, so if I am blind (might be the case) maybe you can help point me in the right direction.

I did stipulate it was the weight of the PA with out the gun. But no where does it say it's with out the pilot.

True, but Dead Boy armor says it weighs 18 pounds. Think that's counting the wearer? Dog Boy Light Riot Armor weighs 8 pounds. Think that counts the wearer? For 340 to count the pilot, every pilot would need to weigh the exact same, which is unlikely, and Palladium would have to count the wearer for that instance but then not do so for every other instance. Possible, though I find this unlikely.

RUE, page 158-159: The "typical hatchling" weighs 4-8 tons (page 158, under "Size")

WHEN HATCHED.

The full quote reads: "However, the true size of the typical Dragon Hatchling, from snout to tail tip, is 30 feet (9.1 m), and 4-8 tons!"

So I guess that would depend if we view "when hatched" as the typical Hatchling. I, personally, believe that a 600 period represents a more typical hatchling as opposed to the 3-12 week period.

They then undergo a dramatic growth spurt, as directly stipulated in the same pages.

I'll agree this part is stated. Now what Palladium considers "dramatic" is where we're disagree so far. Note: I cut out the next small response as I believe I'd simply repeat the above quote, which seems needless at this current junction. If you feel I left out something important, I can re-address it.

Considering the duration of that size (almost a full 600 years compared to the max of 12 weeks smaller), this probably details the "typical" listed previously. When born, a Hatchling is 1/3 it's "mature size."

Clearly not true, 1) That's not how it reads. 2) There's direct quotation about 'Depending on when people meet up with a new dragon hatchling they might see a shocking growth over the next few weeks" line. *not direct quote, but it's on the same pages there. and 3) We have adult dragon weights. Which is not 12 tons but instead 30.

1: Okay, an exact quote then: "The Hatchling is born one-third its mature size and does not reach full maturity until it is 600 years old."

To me, this reads that it's 1/3 it's mature size. And it also tells us the maturity is after 600 years old. I'm not sure what different interpretation you'd have of "one-third its mature size"?

2: The book does say this. For me, going from 33% its mature size to 80% its mature size in a few weeks is rather shocking/dramatic (that's about 2.5x the size of when you meet it a few weeks ago). This will really be a matter of opinion though.

3: If you mean in Conversion Book One (revised and original), I'm not going to argue that. Those are different dragons though. If you mean in RUE, all it really says for Dragon size is "increase physical size by 20%." If there's an actual adult size listed for RUE dragons, I'll be interested. I'd contend that the RUE dragons are different, and in this case smaller than the Conversion Book One dragons (which Palladium tried to move away from in an attempt to try and keep their IP separate, or at least I believe that was their reasoning).

That's not how it reads at all. You're taking an inaccurate reading and trying to reverse engineer a smaller number. But it's based on an inaccurate premise.

I'm providing exact quotes. If you feel I'm misreading the exact quotes, I'd appreciate a clarification. For the record, I'm not contending RUE somehow erases everything from Conversion Book One, but I also don't believe the examples of different dragons from RCB1 makes what's printed in RUE invalid for the dragons contained within.

And, for the record, I had been mainly curious to see how small I could get a dragon to see if the SAMAS would be close. The smallest I could get it (using the smallest weight and then reducing it further) to go was still putting me as a the SAMAS and the newborn dragon hatchling with reduced size as a sumo wrestler. I don't think that collision would go well for me.

But again this isn't correct, and Dragons can metamorph down to cat size but that's not the point. Your math is way off due to inaccurate reading.

True, but I that involves changing into a different form entirely. I was using the version that lets them stay in dragon form. Of course, I'm not entirely sure that the Size modifier on page 158 would affect weight. Typically when a dragon metamorphs they retain their weight. However, I went with a more liberal reading to see if I could find a good reasoning for the SAMAS being considered equal (I did not).

Your math is off by an astounding level but reguardless that sumo would need to have Supernatural strength as well.

Agreed. Though I think either way I'm coming out of the contact hurting pretty bad.

Here again you start to go wrong. Page 356 of the RUE doesn't say that.
I it doesn't say 1D4 per 10MPH.

It says1D4 for every 20mph over 50mph

You are correct on two accounts.

1: Page 356 doesn't say that. Well, it does say your part, but not what I said. I was flipping pages and typed the wrong one. I meant to reference was ...

2: Page 345 mentions damage per 10 mph. However, it's 2D4, so I was wrong there as well. This is in the "Damage" section (starts on page 344) under "Miscellaneous." It does not state whether it's S.D.C. or M.D.C. I'd say this is logically S.D.C. So even at 200 mph (40D4), this might inflict 1 M.D. total. However, since I was (in part) seeing if I could find justification for the ruling, I went with a more liberal application of the damage to doing M.D. in an M.D.C. on M.D.C. crash. I do not, personally, believe this is the correct ruling. However, I wanted to take this from multiple different viewpoints.

BUT and this is the important part. It's not pertaining to MD things crashing into one another. It's pertaining to the ___SDC___ of the pilot in said crashes, -inside- the armor. So while it would pertain to the poor guy inside the samus, it doesn't pertain to the dragon at all. SDC unless it's over 100 at a time, wouldn't scratch the dragon scales.

You're misrepresenting the rules on the page. 1) With inaccurate numbers and 2) That it's pertaining to situations when pilots/armor wearers sustain damage -with in the armor-.

Wasn't an attempt to misrepresent. I typed the wrong page number. I did intend to reference page 356 for damage to the pilot (which I discussed in the overall outcome). For the record, I'm going to just cut out your next few responses as I'm not going to disagree with the 356 rule, and I addressed my page error above (everything else will be just repeating several times).

Sadly while you clearly put work into the post it's wrong on a number of factors and the pages cited don't.... say what you say that they say.

I appreciate the attempt but you're way off.... pretty much from start to finish.

Well, I definitely admit I typed the wrong page number and wrong value (2D4 per 10 mph is the actual number on page 345). I'm not convinced about your dragon sizes yet. If I had to make a guess, you're taking your impressions from RCB1 and not giving RUE section on dragons a proper reading. I could be wrong though. Like I said, I'd be curious to your interpretation of what "one-third its mature size" would mean other than 1/3 of its mature size or why 1 day old would be considered a "typical" dragon hatchling. How about this: What is the size listed for an adult Cat's Eye Dragon? Because I don't believe that's listed in RCB1, so I'd be interested to see how you get your results. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. So I just saw the posts from Zer0 Kay as I typed. If this is during RMB, never mind. RCB1 dragons are definitely the source. So yup, much bigger.

Ok to cover just in generality

Dragons: Size:
Player notes: pg 158: True size of typical dragon hatchling from snout to tip of tail is 30 ft and 4-8 tons.
Now it's important to note same page has 'age' of the dragon, and it goes from literal hours old to a bit over a month, max and that's if you're rolling straight 6s

Page 159: A dragon reaches 80% of it's full size with in 3D4 weeks after it hatches. (Thus where I got the three month old, being 80% of the full grown adult.) As 3 months is well beyond the 'age' in the previous entry, of a few hours to 6 weeks, clearly they're not the same thing.

So when it hatches it's 30 feet long and 4-8 tons.

To quote the book "So depending on how old the hatchling is when the group first meets him, the group could be witness to a rather dramatic growth period.

it also says "A dragon is born at 1/3rd it's mature size" BORN at 1/3rd it's mature size "And doesn't reach maturity for 600 years.

So if it's at 33% when born and 80% in 3 months you're talking about roughly 50%(of the final size) growth in those three months to hit the 80% size

Now... to get the size I used. I'll admit. I did NOT used the ad hock wannabees in RUE. because they're exactly what you alluded to, Palladium's attempt to hack up the IPs so they could license them seperately for more money, but the entries we DO have on adult dragons come from Conversion book 1.

CB1: I looked for the most 'sterotypical' ___DRAGON___ what we all mentally form in our heads when someone says 'Dragon'. I.E. a 'Western Dragon' Not an "Eastern Dragon" (( Which if you're eastern might be your first mental image but I'm from the West so my cultural bias points that way)

The one that fits the bill is the Horned Dragon.
One could argue a Fire dragon but that's a bit more nitch and the size isn't that different between the two.

So I used the Horned dragon as it's the most 'sterotypical' DRAGON Dragon. Others are variations on the theme.
Page 122-124: Up to 70 feet long, wingspans of 120 feet, Weight 30 tons.

From there I had done some rough eyeballing. In my previous post I had them at 80% of 30 tons being 20 tons, but that was an incorrect estimate (Would only be 66% total size at that weight.

24 tons would be 80% of 30 tons.

So. We know that the end point is 30 tons.

We multiply 0.8*30 and get 24.

So with 24 is what the Hatchling hits after 3D4 weeks.

you can also reverse engineer this a bit more. If the hatchling is 8 tons at hatching, it's a bit smaller than what you'd need to be 33% of full grown (10 tons) for the Horned dragon.

So there it is. Page 158 says they're 4-8 tons on hatching (I'm guessing to account for smaller to larger breeds) and "A third of it's mature size"

Then page 159: Say 80% of hatching in 3D4 weeks

The conversion book (For Sterotypical 'Dragon' Dragons') has an adult weight of 30 tons.

So reverse enginering from a FIRM end point of 30, we get 80% of that or 24 tons at 3D4 weeks old.

Which would mean the Horned Dragons are a bit undersized at birth (They should be about 10 tons) but still The math holds.


As for the collision damage. No worries. I've cited the wrong page from time to time. It happens.

[Zer0 Kay]

It was a GHD and hadn't reached its growth spurt yet. So what is E for a GHD, let's just assume max flight spd was rolled CIDR and and what is E for the SAMAS flying at max speed?

[Zer0 Kay]

How is two jet engines heavy armor and a gun only 340 lbs. Rediculous. It isnt the heaviest but is heavier than standard armor and has actuators.

Okay so 340lbs to 1600 lbs and speeds?

*Points to RUE* Page 240.

I didn't write it. To be fair it says "With out rail gun" as the weight. But even with a gun it' snot going to near the other. And you're --literally-- using a dragon that hatched like minutes before to have the 1600lbs. Again with in a few weeks they're 24 tons, or 48,000lbs

When a car is whippng down the street at and hits the corgi does the car's wheel suddenly shatter and explode? Does the drive train get ripped out?

Or does the dog get splattered to a greater or lesser degree?

At most you might crack a bumper, but that dog is toast. And the car doesn't have -supernatural strength-

Guy in power armor 340lbs.... vs Dragon that's an absolute minum of 4 tons if he was born minutes ago, or 24+ tons if he's a few weeks old. So in reality it's more like a tank smearing into a line backer. That line backer might be pretty tough but he's not going to scratch the paint on the tank. At best you'll need a squeegie

A: this was done during RMB.
B:point all you want my books are packed.
C: or MONTHS ago up to 2 plus some days so NOT literally minutes ago
D samas is not a corgi to a monts old pre growth spurt dragon. More like a deer to a vw bug.

A; I was citing the book, an RUE has been out for well over a DECADE. I'm sorry but I'm not citing a source from another book another decade older than that.
B: Then arguing rules might not be the best thing to do if you can't look um up.
C: I have no idea what you're talking about
D: No. The Dragon goes through it's growth spurt in those first few months... and the weight was a direct correlation. I looked up how much a car weighed. Reduced the dragon's weight down to that of a car. (Roughly a factor of 10) So I reduced the Samus down by the same factor. I then googled dogs that weighed 34 lbs and came up with Corgi.

So yes.. it's like a corgi getting hit by a sedan.

A. Can site the new all you want but arguing an event that occurred in a previous version against the newer version is like saying that buildings built in 1920 shouldn't fall in an Earthquake due to current building standards requiring what they do.

B. Show me where I claim that what was done to him was by the rules?

C. You claimed minimum of 4 tons of born minutes ago. They stay the birth weight until the growth spurt.

D. Does RMB say the dragon has a growth spurt in x weeks or within x weeks? The first happens after x in a spectacular manner, the second starts after hatching and concludes at x. Although within may refer to the variation of the die roll so it would be better worded to support a more gradual growth by stating that they grow throughout the period and not to claim it as a growth spurt.

[Zer0 Kay]

wheres the law around here? theres been a hijacking lol
oh well R.I.P OP.

I know right? I was just expecting a "your mean" or something

[Zer0 Kay]

Your also just going by weight. What is MDC to weight ratio? A Corgi by no means has an equivalent SDC to weight ratio as a SAMAS... I hope (since my books are packed) and the ratio of the corgi's d:w ratio in sdc to a card d:w ratio is probably far greater and then the materials are also reversed if you made a 35 lb metal corgi and tried running over it at full speed with a car made of flesh you sure would cause a wound. Its be better to assess the damage comparing damage with a light vehicle when you run it into a large animal at full speed.

[Pepsi Jedi]

How is two jet engines heavy armor and a gun only 340 lbs. Rediculous. It isnt the heaviest but is heavier than standard armor and has actuators.

Okay so 340lbs to 1600 lbs and speeds?

*Points to RUE* Page 240.

I didn't write it. To be fair it says "With out rail gun" as the weight. But even with a gun it' snot going to near the other. And you're --literally-- using a dragon that hatched like minutes before to have the 1600lbs. Again with in a few weeks they're 24 tons, or 48,000lbs

When a car is whippng down the street at and hits the corgi does the car's wheel suddenly shatter and explode? Does the drive train get ripped out?

Or does the dog get splattered to a greater or lesser degree?

At most you might crack a bumper, but that dog is toast. And the car doesn't have -supernatural strength-

Guy in power armor 340lbs.... vs Dragon that's an absolute minum of 4 tons if he was born minutes ago, or 24+ tons if he's a few weeks old. So in reality it's more like a tank smearing into a line backer. That line backer might be pretty tough but he's not going to scratch the paint on the tank. At best you'll need a squeegie

A: this was done during RMB.
B:point all you want my books are packed.
C: or MONTHS ago up to 2 plus some days so NOT literally minutes ago
D samas is not a corgi to a monts old pre growth spurt dragon. More like a deer to a vw bug.

A; I was citing the book, an RUE has been out for well over a DECADE. I'm sorry but I'm not citing a source from another book another decade older than that.
B: Then arguing rules might not be the best thing to do if you can't look um up.
C: I have no idea what you're talking about
D: No. The Dragon goes through it's growth spurt in those first few months... and the weight was a direct correlation. I looked up how much a car weighed. Reduced the dragon's weight down to that of a car. (Roughly a factor of 10) So I reduced the Samus down by the same factor. I then googled dogs that weighed 34 lbs and came up with Corgi.

So yes.. it's like a corgi getting hit by a sedan.

A. Can site the new all you want but arguing an event that occurred in a previous version against the newer version is like saying that buildings built in 1920 shouldn't fall in an Earthquake due to current building standards requiring what they do.

B. Show me where I claim that what was done to him was by the rules?

C. You claimed minimum of 4 tons of born minutes ago. They stay the birth weight until the growth spurt.

D. Does RMB say the dragon has a growth spurt in x weeks or within x weeks? The first happens after x in a spectacular manner, the second starts after hatching and concludes at x. Although within may refer to the variation of the die roll so it would be better worded to support a more gradual growth by stating that they grow throughout the period and not to claim it as a growth spurt.

Well we run up against "B" "Show me where I claim that what was done to him was by the rules"

Well if that's the attitude. Then just make up what ever you want. House rule it and 'punish' the guy, but realize that by the rules you're wrong on a number of levels. Which means.. he was right to be pissy about it. You changed the rules mid stream to punish him.

You're basically backing out now, that it's been shown that you ignored the rules to seriously slam a character for something he really should have been able to do, but you didn't like very much.

Going back to your first post, yeah the guy got mad when you broke the rules to punish him. In what you're deaming a suicide manuver, that via the rules should have had zero chance of actually hurting his character and every chance of splattering the PA pilot just from the collision. (Inside the armor, never mind the attack itself)

I'm not a strict rules lawyer type but if a GM just made up rules on the fly to hurt/kill my character because I did somthing clever. I'd be pissed too.

So.... what? You're braging about getting rid of a rules lawer by breaking/Making up the rules to punish his char?

[Zer0 Kay]

Now it was wholly by rules... that existed.
1. Roll to strike.
2. Hit
3. Roll damage for a kick.
4. Which wing are you attacking.
5. Both
6. Damage divided in half to each wing not enough to rip it off
7. No damage given for a wing strike, no RMB crash damage given, Use RT crash damage more than a quarter of the dragons REMAINING MD taken.
8. GM declares leg broken. An effect that is exceedingly minor to a bio regenerating/shape changer.

You have less than half your MDC and your out of PPE you decide all you have left is to melee the SAMAS and try to rip the wings of a SAMAS GM tells you to run and you say your bigger so should be able to rip the wings off easily.

I wanna watch you pick up a traffic cone while driving 40mph.

Not bragging (2 g's) I simply stated what I did to an annoying rules lawyer who was detrimental to the cohesiveness of the group. How is that worse than bragging... no gloating, about creaming on an arrogant momma's boy's character's face? Your judging me for restoring flow and teamwork in a game held in my own apartment when you are simply trying to show your "dominance" (your word) but not too much because you don't wanna get kicked out? Just kill the character and if momma throws you out game at someone's apartment or a Dennies or other 24hr diner.

[Zer0 Kay]

So back to OP

It wasnt punishment. I just wanted to see what would happen. So I made one of the players in a 20 player group the assassin of another player.

[Zer0 Kay]

There was a guy in a PF game jumped into magic circles. GM made the next one sex change.

[Zer0 Kay]

In my Rifts campaign when I left to use the bathroom I told the players to roll a d20 and a % when I came back I used the randomizer item list. Everyone except one guy got screwed. After a few times I'd just say while I'm gone and leave everyone but the one guy would groan. I came back and before we started he asked can we only roll once each time? And. another asked do we have to roll at all? I said no for both. The guy showed me a list of five rolls. Everyone else claimed not to roll. Everyone else was playing dragons and Cosmo knights and the like the eager guy was playing a standard fixer and ended up becoming the most powerful.
The randomeer item table is a fickle mistress and funny

[Zer0 Kay]

My brother in law is a hit things with other things guy... I tomb of horrors'd him. In a PB way. Instead of traps it was riddles that required teamwork both were actually pretty easy he just refused to work with a team.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Now it was wholly by rules... that existed.
1. Roll to strike.
2. Hit
3. Roll damage for a kick.
4. Which wing are you attacking.
5. Both
6. Damage divided in half to each wing not enough to rip it off
7. No damage given for a wing strike, no RMB crash damage given, Use RT crash damage more than a quarter of the dragons REMAINING MD taken.
8. GM declares leg broken. An effect that is exceedingly minor to a bio regenerating/shape changer.

You have less than half your MDC and your out of PPE you decide all you have left is to melee the SAMAS and try to rip the wings of a SAMAS GM tells you to run and you say your bigger so should be able to rip the wings off easily.

I wanna watch you pick up a traffic cone while driving 40mph.

Not bragging (2 g's) I simply stated what I did to an annoying rules lawyer who was detrimental to the cohesiveness of the group. How is that worse than bragging... no gloating, about creaming on an arrogant momma's boy's character's face? Your judging me for restoring flow and teamwork in a game held in my own apartment when you are simply trying to show your "dominance" (your word) but not too much because you don't wanna get kicked out? Just kill the character and if momma throws you out game at someone's apartment or a Dennies or other 24hr diner.

Your previous post said "Show me where I claim that what was done was by the rules'

So that question was..... what? A stalling tactic? The direct implication was there that what you did wasn't by the rules. So the post above here I'm answering to was what? A modification after you scoured books to back up what you had done?

Now you're trying to say that a dragon getting two broken legs from a strike is by the rules??

Robotech rules? Can you please cite the page where these rules are? I'd love to take a look.

As for my own example I did do things by the rules. Nor was my reason for doing so "He was a rules lawyer" which yours was. Thus the irony was not present.

Your story is changing as we go along.

From your OP

" I asked him to show me where shearing off wings just from a grab attack done with non-prehensile feet between two objects of similar mass with the oppositions airspeed being much higher was."

Now that had been covered. A simple strike would allow for shearing off the wings. (Should the damage been enough))

As has the fact that the mass is in no way similar. A dragon minutes out of the egg is a minimum of 8,000lbs and up to 16,000lbs. A Samus depending on armiment is well under 1,000. (Going to assume it had the gun, but don't know how much ammo had been depleted, but even at full battle load it's under 1,000)
Depending on where the dragon is in it's groath cycle of the first three months of life it could be up to 48,000lbs.

Now I've got a few dozen Robotech books so I'll look when you cite a page for it, but I'm going to guess it doesn't cover a man sized object bouncing off a multi ton MDC dragon with supernatural strength. (But I could be wrong so I'll certainly look)

[Nightmartree]

I wouldn't say its cruel or unusual but we did have a guy who died due to his own effort, got a nice deity to reincarnate him, didn't like what he was reborn as and stormed off. I was however quite happy to play the resulting character who due to some random die rolls ended up with his armor and weapons being worked into his new animal form. Trust me in 2nd edition Dnd a badger with +3 claws and the equivalent of chainmail +2 or so was...rather devastating. I've also in games with that same player grabbed him and bodily dragged him to the side of the ship before everyone restrained me from throwing him overboard (he wouldn't stop drawing from a deck of many things, GM had told him all the good stuff had been drawn and out of the next 9 cards 7 were penalties, he though he could draw the 2 good ones). He also argued with me for over 2 hours on why he should be able to crit on a 20 when it wasn't a nat 20 because it was a 20.

We have also had several nukes dropped on our party in palladium, at least one time my corpse was used for target practice. I was the person least likely to be targeted, the actions to provoke the enemies were taken by the above fellow, I was between him and the party just in case he needed back up as he prodded around a pool and threw stones in it...next thing you know 6 burrowing enemies leap up and attack me with everything they have, then for the next 6 rounds every time the GM rolled to see who was attacked at least 3 of them would attack and savage my corpse even as the party fought and killed them off. GM wasn't targeting me but his dice sure were (he left me in the combat targets even though I was dead, I think it was mercy on our party and just to see if they'd stop attacking me...). I was resurrected after that but I still remember sitting there as they attack my dead body again and again...yeesh

mostly in my group we don't punish people actively, they stick their heads in a noose or some very freaky die rolls make things go weird. And its normally very clearly stated "This is a bad idea" at which point certain people go "Oh Ya! I do it"...most of those nukes were our own, our closest to a party wipe involved a burster and enough ordinance to level a small city exploding right over our party...

[Zer0 Kay]

Now it was wholly by rules... that existed.
1. Roll to strike.
2. Hit
3. Roll damage for a kick.
4. Which wing are you attacking.
5. Both
6. Damage divided in half to each wing not enough to rip it off
7. No damage given for a wing strike, no RMB crash damage given, Use RT crash damage more than a quarter of the dragons REMAINING MD taken.
8. GM declares leg broken. An effect that is exceedingly minor to a bio regenerating/shape changer.

You have less than half your MDC and your out of PPE you decide all you have left is to melee the SAMAS and try to rip the wings of a SAMAS GM tells you to run and you say your bigger so should be able to rip the wings off easily.

I wanna watch you pick up a traffic cone while driving 40mph.

Not bragging (2 g's) I simply stated what I did to an annoying rules lawyer who was detrimental to the cohesiveness of the group. How is that worse than bragging... no gloating, about creaming on an arrogant momma's boy's character's face? Your judging me for restoring flow and teamwork in a game held in my own apartment when you are simply trying to show your "dominance" (your word) but not too much because you don't wanna get kicked out? Just kill the character and if momma throws you out game at someone's apartment or a Dennies or other 24hr diner.

Your previous post said "Show me where I claim that what was done was by the rules'

So that question was..... what? A stalling tactic? The direct implication was there that what you did wasn't by the rules. So the post above here I'm answering to was what? A modification after you scoured books to back up what you had done?

Now you're trying to say that a dragon getting two broken legs from a strike is by the rules??

Robotech rules? Can you please cite the page where these rules are? I'd love to take a look.

As for my own example I did do things by the rules. Nor was my reason for doing so "He was a rules lawyer" which yours was. Thus the irony was not present.

Your story is changing as we go along.

From your OP

" I asked him to show me where shearing off wings just from a grab attack done with non-prehensile feet between two objects of similar mass with the oppositions airspeed being much higher was."

Now that had been covered. A simple strike would allow for shearing off the wings. (Should the damage been enough))

As has the fact that the mass is in no way similar. A dragon minutes out of the egg is a minimum of 8,000lbs and up to 16,000lbs. A Samus depending on armiment is well under 1,000. (Going to assume it had the gun, but don't know how much ammo had been depleted, but even at full battle load it's under 1,000)
Depending on where the dragon is in it's groath cycle of the first three months of life it could be up to 48,000lbs.

Now I've got a few dozen Robotech books so I'll look when you cite a page for it, but I'm going to guess it doesn't cover a man sized object bouncing off a multi ton MDC dragon with supernatural strength. (But I could be wrong so I'll certainly look)

If I needed to stall I just wouldn't have posted. I was correcting you. You decided I was arguing the rules. I don't need to. You decided i broke the rules, a GM can't. Cant scour books because they're still packed.

Show me where it says that the growth spurt is continuous over the first few weeks of life and not instantanious when it reaches the rolled number of days?

Nope, it covers an MDC veritech through SDC trees.

You still haven't addressed your egregious sins in your analogy. You cant turn the smaller faster metal MDC object vs. The slower, larger F&B MDC object into a smaller, slower F&B SDC object vs. Faster larger metal SDC object. That is as bad as stating a railgun round cant penetrate a dragons skin because a hotdog flying at a tank that is going mach 1 will disinigrate on contact.

Also still dont see how using non existant ejaculate rules to humiliate someone who is likely a person with super low self esteem who's only reprieve from being bullied in school is being the big guy in his Moms shop so you could exert your "dominance" is better than me restoring camaraderie and teamwork in an 10 person group that was being deterred because one of the guys is a fun killing rules lawyer?

[Zer0 Kay]

I wouldn't say its cruel or unusual but we did have a guy who died due to his own effort, got a nice deity to reincarnate him, didn't like what he was reborn as and stormed off. I was however quite happy to play the resulting character who due to some random die rolls ended up with his armor and weapons being worked into his new animal form. Trust me in 2nd edition Dnd a badger with +3 claws and the equivalent of chainmail +2 or so was...rather devastating. I've also in games with that same player grabbed him and bodily dragged him to the side of the ship before everyone restrained me from throwing him overboard (he wouldn't stop drawing from a deck of many things, GM had told him all the good stuff had been drawn and out of the next 9 cards 7 were penalties, he though he could draw the 2 good ones). He also argued with me for over 2 hours on why he should be able to crit on a 20 when it wasn't a nat 20 because it was a 20.

We have also had several nukes dropped on our party in palladium, at least one time my corpse was used for target practice. I was the person least likely to be targeted, the actions to provoke the enemies were taken by the above fellow, I was between him and the party just in case he needed back up as he prodded around a pool and threw stones in it...next thing you know 6 burrowing enemies leap up and attack me with everything they have, then for the next 6 rounds every time the GM rolled to see who was attacked at least 3 of them would attack and savage my corpse even as the party fought and killed them off. GM wasn't targeting me but his dice sure were (he left me in the combat targets even though I was dead, I think it was mercy on our party and just to see if they'd stop attacking me...). I was resurrected after that but I still remember sitting there as they attack my dead body again and again...yeesh

mostly in my group we don't punish people actively, they stick their heads in a noose or some very freaky die rolls make things go weird. And its normally very clearly stated "This is a bad idea" at which point certain people go "Oh Ya! I do it"...most of those nukes were our own, our closest to a party wipe involved a burster and enough ordinance to level a small city exploding right over our party...

Freaking awesome. Love the OK on the body.

[iteration27]

i think i was a bed player in my previous life and this thread is my punishment.

[Blue_Lion]

Does a PC death because he refuses to remove a helmet full of puke count as player punishment?

(I consider it self inflicted if you are told that you can't breath because your helmet is full of puke and you refuse to remove it. Get progresive warnings and then die.)

[Zer0 Kay]

i think i was a bed player in my previous life and this thread is my punishment.

Wait... what's a bed player?

[Zer0 Kay]

Does a PC death because he refuses to remove a helmet full of puke count as player punishment?

(I consider it self inflicted if you are told that you can't breath because your helmet is full of puke and you refuse to remove it. Get progresive warnings and then die.)

OMG are you talking about the one where people around here were calling you a killer GM all because this guy figured you'd kill him if he took his helmet off even though you've never GMd that way and all the other guys took off their helmets. So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

[Blue_Lion]

Does a PC death because he refuses to remove a helmet full of puke count as player punishment?

(I consider it self inflicted if you are told that you can't breath because your helmet is full of puke and you refuse to remove it. Get progresive warnings and then die.)

OMG are you talking about the one where people around here were calling you a killer GM all because this guy figured you'd kill him if he took his helmet off even though you've never GMd that way and all the other guys took off their helmets. So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

Yep.
Only time that any one ever died from that weapon.

[iteration27]

bed player? sank my GF is never going to find out about...

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Pepsi Jedi YOU LEAVE THAT POOR CORGI ALONE!

[Zer0 Kay]

Does a PC death because he refuses to remove a helmet full of puke count as player punishment?

(I consider it self inflicted if you are told that you can't breath because your helmet is full of puke and you refuse to remove it. Get progresive warnings and then die.)

OMG are you talking about the one where people around here were calling you a killer GM all because this guy figured you'd kill him if he took his helmet off even though you've never GMd that way and all the other guys took off their helmets. So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

Yep.
Only time that any one ever died from that weapon.

How dare you killer GM.

[Zer0 Kay]

Pepsi Jedi YOU LEAVE THAT POOR CORGI ALONE!

Hey it should.be a 35 lb metal corgi... CYBER CORGI

[Pepsi Jedi]

If I needed to stall I just wouldn't have posted. I was correcting you.

No it wasn't. Your query on asking where you said what you did by the rules isn't a correction. It's a query with the direct implication that you did NOT go by the rules.

You decided I was arguing the rules.

Your entire point was about using rules against a rules lawyer and punishing him for being a rules lawyer via the situation described.

I don't need to.

Boy did you come to the wrong place...

You decided i broke the rules, a GM can't.

See this statement here is your downfall. Of course a GM Can break the rules. lol When you come together to play you enter into social contract. That contract for playing a game is that you will use the rules of the game. Except where the rules have been modified and agreed upon (House rules) The GM isn't some GOD that can just make up stuff to screw over players at whim. Surely you 'can' but when you 'do' you are breaking the rules. The rules aren't simply "what ever you want them to be, when ever you want them to be to get what ever result you want".

But "You decided I broke the rules, a GM can't" Says quite a bit about your mentality when it comes to being GM. After a statement like that, the rest is pretty much moot. There's no real point in debating it, as at the heart of the matter you refuse to allow for any wrongdoing by a GM.

Cant scour books because they're still packed.

Well you could either open boxes, or... accept that with out citation your claims are harder to prove. While I'm not pointing to your face and saying "LIAR", I don't know where you found the stuff you're citing so.. with out point of reference we don't know if it's as you say or no.

Show me where it says that the growth spurt is continuous over the first few weeks of life and not instantanious when it reaches the rolled number of days?

Show me where it says water is wet!! You're asking for an overly specific answer. But to answer your question in the book it details the Dragon's friends or companions witnessing a dramatric growth over the time frame indicated. Not an instantious shift in size.

Nope, it covers an MDC veritech through SDC trees.

You still haven't addressed your egregious sins in your analogy.

Egregious sins?

Ok let me see if I get what you're saying.

You cant turn the smaller faster metal MDC object

Smaller and faster MDC object... the Samus. (between 400 and 800lbs)

vs the slower, larger F&B MDC object

I'm guessing you mean Flesh and blood.... but slower larger object would be the dragon...

object into a smaller, slower F&B SDC object vs. Faster larger metal SDC object.

Smaller slower flesh and blood.... the dog.... vs a faster larger metal SDC object... the Car.


Well see here's how I most certinly COULD.

Both the Samus and the dragon are MDC. it doesn't matter that one is flesh and blood and the other is metal as both are Mega Damage creatures and there's no AR to MD. MDC is MDC.

The Samus 'Hitting' the Dragon is an application of speed. It's an object hitting a largely immovalbe force. (Not totally but 4 to 24 tons is going to be pretty immobile to a 400lbs Samus.

It's like flying into an MDC wall.

The Dog Vs car is pretty much the same thing. The only difference is in which is moving. The dog is an SDC object, the car is an SDC object. One is very small the other large. When one hits the other the large one comes out better in the collision. The dog is going to get smeared and at best you might crack a headlight or dent a bumper on the car.

You're surely not ripping the front axel off the car for hitting the dog, any more than a 4 to 24 ton dragon is suffering shattered legs from the Samus.

The analogy is a good one. The speed of the Samus and or dog are largely irrelivent. The Samus flying very fast into the dragon just makes it worse for the samus. Just like if the corgi ran fast into the car.

That is as bad as stating a railgun round cant penetrate a dragons skin because a hotdog flying at a tank that is going mach 1 will disinigrate on contact.

Also still dont see how using non existant ejaculate rules

The rules were for the combat in the system. Not the ejaculate. That was role play

to humiliate someone who is likely a person with super low self esteem who's only reprieve from being bullied in school is being the big guy in his Moms shop

Well that's a lot of assumptions there and painting the guy as a victim. While some may be true it's not relivent to the point.

The point was he was a D-bag and was treated accordingly, but by the rules.

so you could exert your "dominance" is better than me

Because you broke the rules to punish a rules lawyer and were smug when he pointed out you indeed did break the rules. In short he was right to complain as you cheated. I didn't cheat.

restoring camaraderie and teamwork in an 10 person group that was being deterred because one of the guys is a fun killing rules lawyer?

Because your solution fed the complaints.

If I was a jerk to the guy for years and then he decided to be a jerk back, I'd deserve it. It would be bad of me to then "Out jerk" the guy to drive him off as he'd have honest complaint.

If you're breaking the established rules in a game and he points it out, and your reply is to break more rules to drive him off, you're in the wrong.

[taalismn]

[ So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

Kid musts heard about the campaign I was in where the party mage brushed off the threat of a C-level mnster...a giant weasel... and promptly got throat-bitten and exsanguinated for critical damage...

[Mack]

Pepsi / Zero,

Take a deep breath, channel your inner Elsa, and Let It Go.

[Nightmartree]

Take a deep breath, channel your inner Elsa, and Let It Go.

Peace to the world man

Kid musts heard about the campaign I was in where the party mage brushed off the threat of a C-level mnster...a giant weasel... and promptly got throat-bitten and exsanguinated for critical damage...

Ah that time when you get taken out by rats, one shotted my mage, he gets healed, is promptly one shotted again before he can act, again he gets healed, prepares to act, once more the rats take him down.

Finally just shook my head and told them all to wait till the fight was over to revive me, rats too OP pls nerf (and so we find out that not every young adventurer can breeze through the rat stage of their grand quest)

[Zer0 Kay]

[ So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

Kid musts heard about the campaign I was in where the party mage brushed off the threat of a C-level mnster...a giant weasel... and promptly got throat-bitten and exsanguinated for critical damage...

Dude so messed up. That's like the reverse of killing off the main NPC. Like what happened in Kevin's game with the big baddy dying at the beginning of the game

[Zer0 Kay]

Pepsi / Zero,

Take a deep breath, channel your inner Elsa, and Let It Go.

Awesome rendition

[Zer0 Kay]

Thanks Mack but I took your advice 12 posts before you posted it. Decided since nothing I say is actually getting a direct response and everything is getting parsed and somehow humiliation for the Express purpose of humiliation is better than making something happen as the GM that actually saved the guys character, since he kept demanding battle, AND was ultimately and quickly recoverable from AND restored the group. So PJ can live in his world where he is the JM and I'll live in mine where I'm the GM.

[Mack]

Thanks Mack but I took your advice 12 posts before you posted it.

This part was fine. You should've stopped here.

Decided since nothing I say is actually getting a direct response and everything is getting parsed and somehow humiliation for the Express purpose of humiliation is better than making something happen as the GM that actually saved the guys character, since he kept demanding battle, AND was ultimately and quickly recoverable from AND restored the group. So PJ can live in his world where he is the JM and I'll live in mine where I'm the GM.

This would be the opposite of Letting It Go. This is continuing to argue, attempting to get in the last word, and taking a parting shot at Pepsi.

[Blue_Lion]

[ So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

Kid musts heard about the campaign I was in where the party mage brushed off the threat of a C-level mnster...a giant weasel... and promptly got throat-bitten and exsanguinated for critical damage...

Dude so messed up. That's like the reverse of killing off the main NPC. Like what happened in Kevin's game with the big baddy dying at the beginning of the game

Kind of reminds of the time a player died to the triple natural 20(think it was a house rule) in 3rd ed.
Think he was killed by a normal badger that rolled 3 20s in a roll for an attack roll. Causing instant death. So level 5 mage hit the badger with acid arrow it jumped up and ripped out his throat. Druid healed it and now there is a level 2 badger out there some where.

[Blue_Lion]

Does a PC death because he refuses to remove a helmet full of puke count as player punishment?

(I consider it self inflicted if you are told that you can't breath because your helmet is full of puke and you refuse to remove it. Get progresive warnings and then die.)

OMG are you talking about the one where people around here were calling you a killer GM all because this guy figured you'd kill him if he took his helmet off even though you've never GMd that way and all the other guys took off their helmets. So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

Yep.
Only time that any one ever died from that weapon.

How dare you killer GM.

That is it. Fine I will show you a killer GM.
Hands ZerO Kay a level 15 Glitter boy to play.
*A toilet falls from off a space station passing through the orbital defense field inflicting 3d6 GDC to your charter. It is a surprise attack so you can not dodge.*
You MDC armor does not stop the GDC and your charter dies.

[Nightmartree]

That is it. Fine I will show you a killer GM.
Hands ZerO Kay a level 15 Glitter boy to play.
*A toilet falls from off a space station passing through the orbital defense field inflicting 3d6 GDC to your charter. It is a surprise attack so you can not dodge.*
You MDC armor does not stop the GDC and your charter dies.

GDC?

and dang it, a toilet? whats next, taking out archie with a kitchen sink?

ooohhhhhh I got a killer GM idea, your enemies have MD weapons, but their scopes include a ray that destabilizes MD materials rendering them temporarily SDC, so they're shooting MD shots at NOW SDC materials hehe

[Blue_Lion]

Rifter 9 1/2 April fools edition.
Giga-damage is the next step up from Mega damage. Can not be soaked up with MDC blows right through it.

And archie 3 dies to a broken pipe that causes water damage.

[guardiandashi]

GDC was something we also had in our campaigns, it is to MDC what MDC is to SDC.

for instance I was using stuff from battletech and having the mechs armor be GDC, so rifts/robotech gear had to do 100+ MDC in a single attack to consistently damage the units. of course I gave the battletech gear a "querk" that the GDC armor was not continuous, it was "scales" or plates that were super hard and tough, but their attachments were weaker, so it was possible to blow said plates off by rolling under the fractional damage done on a percentile check example you attack the unit and do 225 mdc in your attack, it automatically shatters 2 plates, and has a 25% (24 technically) chance of blowing off a 3rd plate

[Khanibal]

*A toilet falls from off a space station passing through the orbital defense field inflicting 3d6 GDC to your charter. It is a surprise attack so you can not dodge.*
You MDC armor does not stop the GDC and your charter dies.

Dead, you might even say Dead Like Me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Like_Me

[eliakon]

I avoided this thread previously...
...and reading it all the way through today both told me again why... and raised an issue with it that I feel should be addressed here.

I was horrified at some of the kudos that some of these cruelties got. Worse was how some of them were acts of dominance against a player.
The most egregious example was PJ relating a story of how he used a foe that was specially built to be immune to a character that was expected to play and expected to interact in said way to sexually assault the character resulting in real world humiliation for years... in a forum that the player would be unable to leave... as an act of 'dominance' and 'revenge'.
And that this got accolades?

Maybe we all need to stop, step back and think a bit on what we are doing here.
This is a game, it is meant to be fun. If 'fun' requires the Conan "crushing your foes and hearing the lamentations of their women" then perhaps Your Doing It Wrong.

Yes, we all know "That Guy" who is a jerk. But if you have to resort to power plays and cruelty to 'get back at them' then perhaps the problem isn't them. It is my firm opinion that a GM can, and should be able to handle their players with out having to resort to the Fiat-bat, or to cruelty or humiliation. If the player is unable to respond to anything short of cruelty... then do you really want to be playing a game with someone who can only respond to cruelty...and do you want to become the person that has to use cruelty to make your points?

Just a few things to ponder while reading a thread of ways to humiliate and punish players.

[Zer0 Kay]

Does a PC death because he refuses to remove a helmet full of puke count as player punishment?

(I consider it self inflicted if you are told that you can't breath because your helmet is full of puke and you refuse to remove it. Get progresive warnings and then die.)

OMG are you talking about the one where people around here were calling you a killer GM all because this guy figured you'd kill him if he took his helmet off even though you've never GMd that way and all the other guys took off their helmets. So it wasnt a fear of killer GM but a fear of persecution... must have been the kid after PJ played 50 shades of flying baboon with him.

Yep.
Only time that any one ever died from that weapon.

How dare you killer GM.

That is it. Fine I will show you a killer GM.
Hands ZerO Kay a level 15 Glitter boy to play.
*A toilet falls from off a space station passing through the orbital defense field inflicting 3d6 GDC to your charter. It is a surprise attack so you can not dodge.*
You MDC armor does not stop the GDC and your charter dies.

OMG I was right your killing me soda nose shot burns.BTW I forgot to tell you... I'm playing a tourist