Tree SDC

[dragonfett]

Does anyone know how much SDC a tree would have?

[The Beast]

Well a light, wooden wall is 50 SDC per sq. 10 ft.

[dreicunan]

Does anyone know how much SDC a tree would have?

Once we find this out, how many melee attacks would it take a mutant woodchuck to chuck it?

[ShadowLogan]

Does anyone know how much SDC a tree would have?

You've got:...
-Forest Warden RCC (WB30 pg90-3) might do in a pinch as they are tree people (literally)
-Dinosaur Swamp (WB26 pg37-40) has some generic plants, they might do in a pinch
-Biomancy Spells of "Strengthen Plant" (level 5), "Tree Warrior" (level 6), "Woodland Entity" (level 10) could do in a pinch with some conversion (usually at 1:1). Can be found in Rifts Book of Magic (pg38-9) or South America 1 (pg?)
-Heroes Unlimited 2E (pg285-6) Major Super Power: Plant Control lists the SDC of numerous plant types including trees. Trees even come in a variety of sizes (small, average, large) and come with AR

[slade2501]

10 sdc per inch of radius (trees are actually tough)

[Library Ogre]

Of course, there's also the question of "For what purpose?"

A full grown oak will obviously have scads of SDC... but you need to inflict far less to chop it down.

[dragonfett]

Of course, there's also the question of "For what purpose?"

A full grown oak will obviously have scads of SDC... but you need to inflict far less to chop it down.

For a couple different reasons. First to determine just how effective they are at providing cover (like a character or NPC is hiding behind one, leaning out just a little bit to fire back). Second is how difficult is it to damage it enough to drop it on enemies (specifically robot vehicles piloted by the enemies). I already found out how to calculate the weight of various trees and know that trees vastly outweigh robot vehicles, now I am wanting to know just how difficult it would be to apply that knowledge.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I always think of the Herbalist from World Book 3: England. Power 8 is the ability to Animate Plants and Trees. Page 24 lists the S.D.C. of an adult tree at 3D4x100. So it can withstand anywhere from 3 to 12 M.D.C. as a whole (though an attack may blow a hole in it even if not fully depleted). S.D.C. for various sized branches are also listed. How much of the S.D.C. is natural and how much is magical though is unclear. There may also be different information in some other book. Anyways, hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Nightmartree]

I can confirm my SDC is pretty low

maybe 10?

[glitterboy2098]

Greetings and Salutations. I always think of the Herbalist from World Book 3: England. Power 8 is the ability to Animate Plants and Trees. Page 24 lists the S.D.C. of an adult tree at 3D4x100. So it can withstand anywhere from 3 to 12 M.D.C. as a whole (though an attack may blow a hole in it even if not fully depleted). S.D.C. for various sized branches are also listed. How much of the S.D.C. is natural and how much is magical though is unclear. There may also be different information in some other book. Anyways, hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

interesting side effect of that is that a simple Pallisade of trimmed trunks would actually be able to withstand a couple attacks from most MD predators. a double pallisade filled with dirt and stone (a technique known as garillum) would be able to hold up fairly well against hits from even most infantry MD weapons. at least for a few minutes.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Of course, there's also the question of "For what purpose?"

A full grown oak will obviously have scads of SDC... but you need to inflict far less to chop it down.

For a couple different reasons. First to determine just how effective they are at providing cover (like a character or NPC is hiding behind one, leaning out just a little bit to fire back). Second is how difficult is it to damage it enough to drop it on enemies (specifically robot vehicles piloted by the enemies). I already found out how to calculate the weight of various trees and know that trees vastly outweigh robot vehicles, now I am wanting to know just how difficult it would be to apply that knowledge.

Not that much. In the example of using an MD pistol to hunt in the books, the guy blows apart a deer with the pistol and cuts a basket ball sized hole through the forest behind said deer, and hits a large tree that falls over towards him.

So.... not that great for cover in rifts.

[Blue_Lion]

Rifts merc talks about improvised cover from things such as rocks and sand bags.

I am confused how did you determine a tree weighs more than 18, 22 or 28 tons?
Those seam like they would be more than a tree would weigh

[dragonfett]

Rifts merc talks about improvised cover from things such as rocks and sand bags.

I am confused how did you determine a tree weighs more than 18, 22 or 28 tons?
Those seam like they would be more than a tree would weigh

I used formulas I had found on this website: https://temporaryrepair.com/blog/2013/9/19/how-much-does-a-tree-weight

Of course, there's also the question of "For what purpose?"

A full grown oak will obviously have scads of SDC... but you need to inflict far less to chop it down.

For a couple different reasons. First to determine just how effective they are at providing cover (like a character or NPC is hiding behind one, leaning out just a little bit to fire back). Second is how difficult is it to damage it enough to drop it on enemies (specifically robot vehicles piloted by the enemies). I already found out how to calculate the weight of various trees and know that trees vastly outweigh robot vehicles, now I am wanting to know just how difficult it would be to apply that knowledge.

Not that much. In the example of using an MD pistol to hunt in the books, the guy blows apart a deer with the pistol and cuts a basket ball sized hole through the forest behind said deer, and hits a large tree that falls over towards him.

So.... not that great for cover in rifts.

It's not like the tree in that scenario was ever described in any great detail, other than the laser made a basket ball sized hole in it. And while that is fine for a description, by working backwards and extrapolating data from the RMB, page 36 it lists the SDC of an interior wooden door at 100 and an exterior wooden door at 170, so it really seems to me like trees (namely large hard wood trees) should have more than enough SDC to survive being shot at by a laser pistol at least one time.

[Blue_Lion]

So a 24 inch 80 foot tree has a mass than can be 10 tons. That is a big tree and it does not access the mass of a robot.
Then look at how the mass is dispersed when a tree falls and most that weight is not on the robot. So it may impeach a robot for a few actions but the robot would not be likely to be stopped by it. Just needs to smash the trunk.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Rifts merc talks about improvised cover from things such as rocks and sand bags.

I am confused how did you determine a tree weighs more than 18, 22 or 28 tons?
Those seam like they would be more than a tree would weigh

I used formulas I had found on this website: https://temporaryrepair.com/blog/2013/9/19/how-much-does-a-tree-weight

Of course, there's also the question of "For what purpose?"

A full grown oak will obviously have scads of SDC... but you need to inflict far less to chop it down.

For a couple different reasons. First to determine just how effective they are at providing cover (like a character or NPC is hiding behind one, leaning out just a little bit to fire back). Second is how difficult is it to damage it enough to drop it on enemies (specifically robot vehicles piloted by the enemies). I already found out how to calculate the weight of various trees and know that trees vastly outweigh robot vehicles, now I am wanting to know just how difficult it would be to apply that knowledge.

Not that much. In the example of using an MD pistol to hunt in the books, the guy blows apart a deer with the pistol and cuts a basket ball sized hole through the forest behind said deer, and hits a large tree that falls over towards him.

So.... not that great for cover in rifts.

It's not like the tree in that scenario was ever described in any great detail, other than the laser made a basket ball sized hole in it. And while that is fine for a description, by working backwards and extrapolating data from the RMB, page 36 it lists the SDC of an interior wooden door at 100 and an exterior wooden door at 170, so it really seems to me like trees (namely large hard wood trees) should have more than enough SDC to survive being shot at by a laser pistol at least one time.

While the tree was not described in any 'great detail' the fact that it was big enough to acquire a basket ball sized hole in it, tells us that the tree is more than 9 and a half inches across. For to have a basketball sized hole in it, it would have to be 9 and a half inches across + some more on either side. So a tree a foot wide or so minimum is not a 'small' tree

More over if memory serves it wasn't 'just' the tree that got blown apart but I think the laser continued on through the forest for the duration of it's range (though THAT part I may be remembering wrong, but I'm about... 68% sure)

[dragonfett]

Rifts merc talks about improvised cover from things such as rocks and sand bags.

I am confused how did you determine a tree weighs more than 18, 22 or 28 tons?
Those seam like they would be more than a tree would weigh

I used formulas I had found on this website: https://temporaryrepair.com/blog/2013/9/19/how-much-does-a-tree-weight

Of course, there's also the question of "For what purpose?"

A full grown oak will obviously have scads of SDC... but you need to inflict far less to chop it down.

For a couple different reasons. First to determine just how effective they are at providing cover (like a character or NPC is hiding behind one, leaning out just a little bit to fire back). Second is how difficult is it to damage it enough to drop it on enemies (specifically robot vehicles piloted by the enemies). I already found out how to calculate the weight of various trees and know that trees vastly outweigh robot vehicles, now I am wanting to know just how difficult it would be to apply that knowledge.

Not that much. In the example of using an MD pistol to hunt in the books, the guy blows apart a deer with the pistol and cuts a basket ball sized hole through the forest behind said deer, and hits a large tree that falls over towards him.

So.... not that great for cover in rifts.

It's not like the tree in that scenario was ever described in any great detail, other than the laser made a basket ball sized hole in it. And while that is fine for a description, by working backwards and extrapolating data from the RMB, page 36 it lists the SDC of an interior wooden door at 100 and an exterior wooden door at 170, so it really seems to me like trees (namely large hard wood trees) should have more than enough SDC to survive being shot at by a laser pistol at least one time.

While the tree was not described in any 'great detail' the fact that it was big enough to acquire a basket ball sized hole in it, tells us that the tree is more than 9 and a half inches across. For to have a basketball sized hole in it, it would have to be 9 and a half inches across + some more on either side. So a tree a foot wide or so minimum is not a 'small' tree

More over if memory serves it wasn't 'just' the tree that got blown apart but I think the laser continued on through the forest for the duration of it's range (though THAT part I may be remembering wrong, but I'm about... 68% sure)

I remember the excerpt that you are referring to from the RMB, I was merely explaining why I felt trees should have enough SDC that the blast from the laser pistol would have been fully absorbed by the tree. A good sized chunk would have been vaporized into ashes to be sure, and there is the chance that it will fall down at some point due to that.

Basically the perspective that I am looking at it from it is this: what is going to stand up to more attacks made with an SDC weapon, the wooden door, or the live tree?

So a 24 inch 80 foot tree has a mass than can be 10 tons. That is a big tree and it does not access the mass of a robot.
Then look at how the mass is dispersed when a tree falls and most that weight is not on the robot. So it may impeach a robot for a few actions but the robot would not be likely to be stopped by it. Just needs to smash the trunk.

Whether the robot is completely immobilized under the weight of the tree or not is not what I am looking at in this case. Tree falls on robot, knocking it down and maybe pinning it for a few minutes is all the time that a team of people with MDC blow torches to cut the hatch open and attack the crew from the inside.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I also realized that Will-O-The-Wisp (from Monsters & Animals, page 78, as I didn't see a Rifts version in Conversion Book One) also has S.D.C., and their body is literally from possessing "large, old trees." ((The reason I posted.))

((But since I'm here.)) As for the Laser Pistol/Tree example, I believe you're referring to the one from Rifts Sourcebook One (original), on page 6 within the Q&A section. The example has 2 M.D. knocking down a "medium size tree" and leaving a "volleyball size" hole through 50 yards of bushes (and that was after blasting the deer in half). The basketball sized hole is from a laser rifle in a different example (a bar fight).

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Greetings and Salutations. I also realized that Will-O-The-Wisp (from Monsters & Animals, page 78, as I didn't see a Rifts version in Conversion Book One) also has S.D.C., and their body is literally from possessing "large, old trees." ((The reason I posted.))

((But since I'm here.)) As for the Laser Pistol/Tree example, I believe you're referring to the one from Rifts Sourcebook One (original), on page 6 within the Q&A section. The example has 2 M.D. knocking down a "medium size tree" and leaving a "volleyball size" hole through 50 yards of bushes (and that was after blasting the deer in half). The basketball sized hole is from a laser rifle in a different example (a bar fight).

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Yeah it was laser pistol/deer/tree from SB1.

It's been a while since I looked, but if it's 2Md that was 2mD after ripping a deer in half. If it's a volleyball sized hole that's..... ok high school was a long time ago.... volleyballs are what... 8in in diameter? So the tree would need to be 10 or 11 inches across Difference of, well an inch or so, but still. Decently sized. No redwood but what most people would consider a full grown tree.

[glitterboy2098]

On the gripping hand though, that hole didn't fell the tree, so clearly it had more than 200 sd. Enough more It would have needed at least one more shot to that part of the trunk to topple it.

[Daniel Stoker]

Or Kevin was being Kevin and writing cinematically on how it would look without considering the actual rules there?


Daniel Stoker

[dragonfett]

Or Kevin was being Kevin and writing cinematically on how it would look without considering the actual rules there?


Daniel Stoker

Yeah, there is that...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Especially since later rules (no, i dont recall exaxtly what book, as ive been looking through a lot of them lately) state that id there is blast-through, it WILL stop at the second object it hits, even if that object is completely destroyed.

Ill give a half hearted look for that reference this weekend, but ive got a bachelor party to attend so it may not happen.

On-topic... non soft-wood trees (evergreens are fairly soft, for instance) id say would be good enough cover, if full-sized adult trees, to absorb a single shot or burst from an MDC weapon and not have blow-through (as splinters and other debris will continue to absorb damage), but excessive damage on a highly penetrative force (like, say, a boom gun round or APSD cannon round) would still blow-through, regardless of how many SDC the tree supposedly has.

Trees also get a lot bigger than people realize, so size would matter. My grandparents had some 90+ year old Maples on their property that were easily 4+ft in diameter.

Softwoods... arent going to protect you as much.

Hardwoods, id say, would prevent blowthrough regardless of what they got hit with, but in all cases, the tree falling on you is going to be a serious issue. However, id also say that hardwoods probably ha e an extremely substantial amount of SDC; they can probably absorb light MDC fire before being blown apart. Go try cutting down a hickory or ironwood (the mundane kind) if you dont believe me. It took the Mythbusters using a rotary cannon and 800+ rounds to succesfully “chop down” a 2ft-ish hickory stump.

[eliakon]

<snip>
Hardwoods, id say, would prevent blowthrough regardless of what they got hit with, but in all cases, the tree falling on you is going to be a serious issue. However, id also say that hardwoods probably ha e an extremely substantial amount of SDC; they can probably absorb light MDC fire before being blown apart. Go try cutting down a hickory or ironwood (the mundane kind) if you dont believe me. It took the Mythbusters using a rotary cannon and 800+ rounds to succesfully “chop down” a 2ft-ish hickory stump.

I would say that right there tells us everything we need
That is pretty clearly a (low) MD weapon in Rifts. machineguns and the like routinely do MD with their 20-50 round bursts...
so a MINIMUM your looking at something like 16d4 MD (if they were using 50 round 'bursts' only got 1d4 damage, and rolled nothing but ones)

[Killer Cyborg]

Especially since later rules (no, i dont recall exaxtly what book, as ive been looking through a lot of them lately) state that id there is blast-through, it WILL stop at the second object it hits, even if that object is completely destroyed.

I forget where that rule is, but it's either RUE or later.
LONG after the SB1 description.
So these days there wouldn't be a bunch of brush blasted out of the way.

[Pepsi Jedi]

On the gripping hand though, that hole didn't fell the tree, so clearly it had more than 200 sd. Enough more It would have needed at least one more shot to that part of the trunk to topple it.

Actually it did fell the tree. That's was the point.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ehh... MD weaponry can blow through the side of a battle ship guys. A bit of wood isn't even slowing it down.

I do know the 'blow through' rule that was mentioned. it's been hotly debated here previously. ( I was in on a few of them)

Still MD obliterates SDC stuff unless the SDC has over 100SDC and even then few MD weapons do a single point of MD.

The pistol in question basically did 200SDC to the single point of impact. and that was a low roll.

Could a red wood take a few MD blasts? Sure, but MD shots go through rock and stuff. Normal Trees are not going to provide cover, or there would be little use for MD fortifications. (( and if you look at the blow through rules, you could just build double walls of wood and stop all MD shots)

[Blue_Lion]

Whether the robot is completely immobilized under the weight of the tree or not is not what I am looking at in this case. Tree falls on robot, knocking it down and maybe pinning it for a few minutes is all the time that a team of people with MDC blow torches to cut the hatch open and attack the crew from the inside.

couple of actions maybe not minutes.
any robot could quickly dismantle the tree in a few attacks.
It would seam to be unlikely it would be a sufficient obstetrical to do what you are suggesting. After all sdc people have survived trees falling on them.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cen ... -1.3413381

[Nightmartree]

Looking at all the discussion I think the first thing that needs to be decided is what size/kind of tree is being used? Are we discussing a "Normal" sized tree, say 12 inches wide? maybe a large one at 24 inches wide? a "giant" tree at 4 feet or so wide? a super tree of 6ft+? perhaps something like you see in some art/mythology over 20ft?

I mean I can see a 12 inch tree getting cut down pretty easily by MD weapons, maybe a 2fter could take a shot and still be fine (as in its still standing, maybe, but is now missing a major hunk of wood), 4ft? I could see several SMALL MD blasts still not dropping it...now in the above example i'm thinking of a light pistol doing the firing, obviously if your boom gun just did 180 MD on a tree....well that's when you start asking "What tree?".

But all that still comes down to "how big a tree are we talking?" cause if you claim any tree will go down in one shot from a MD weapon let me introduce you to my friend from norse mythology, ya that fellow odin was hung from, has a dragon gnawing at his roots? So again...what size trees do we need to consider for this?

[guardiandashi]

i'm going to say the sdc of the tree doesn't really matter for COVER purposes, note I am using cover in the proper sense of obscuring a target, so you are standing (or crouching) behind a tree, and just peeking out to shoot, the tree is effectively going to protect you for at least a shot or two from being targeted and shot directly.

whether or not the tree will survive more than a shot or two doesn't really matter. it also doesn't totally matter if a shot blows right through the tree, if it means a shot misses you through obscuring cover.

[dragonfett]

Whether the robot is completely immobilized under the weight of the tree or not is not what I am looking at in this case. Tree falls on robot, knocking it down and maybe pinning it for a few minutes is all the time that a team of people with MDC blow torches to cut the hatch open and attack the crew from the inside.

couple of actions maybe not minutes.
any robot could quickly dismantle the tree in a few attacks.
It would seam to be unlikely it would be a sufficient obstetrical to do what you are suggesting. After all sdc people have survived trees falling on them.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cen ... -1.3413381

And exactly how is the giant robot going to get out from underneath the tree that fell on them? Because even the strongest robots which boast a Robotic PS of 60, can only lift 3 tons and pull 6 tons (RUE p. 286 Robots with a P.S. of 17 or higher can lift 25 times their P.S. attribute. Thus, a robot with a P.S. of 24 can lift and carry 600 lbs (270 kg) and a robot with a P.S. of 40 can lift and carry half a ton (1000 lbs). Robot P.S. below 17 is equivalent to normal human strength for the purposes of lifting and carrying (P.S. x 10 in lbs.). Note: Giant robots with a PS of 40 or higher can lift and carry 100x their P.S. number (4000 lbs/1800 kg) and pull 200x their P.S. number (8000 lbs/3600 kg)! So 60 x 100 = 6000 lbs, or 3 tons.

If the robot vehicle crew are lucky, then they were facing the tree when it hit them, therefore meaning that they can use their arms/appendages to damage enough of the tree so that they are no longer trapped, but they are going to be working from an awkward position so that's going to slow you down. You might be able to use some your the robot's weapons if parts of the tree are covering the barrels. But that's only after they recover from getting knocked down (ever been in a car wreck? How quickly right after the hit were you able to respond or react?) At best they lose an action before they can react, and at worst they could be stunned for a few minutes! If the tree hit the robot crew from behind, pinning them down on their front, they are now going to be at the mercy of anyone around them because the robot will lack the strength to get their arms under them (even if they were already in an ideal position to do so).

[Khanibal]

Well, they don't have to pick it up, they just have to roll it off of them.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

mean I can see a 12 inch tree getting cut down pretty easily by MD weapons, maybe a 2fter could take a shot and still be fine (as in its still standing, maybe, but is now missing a major hunk of wood), 4ft? I could see several SMALL MD blasts still not dropping it...

Exactly. As i pointed out, hardwoods especially have lots of SDC. The Mythbusters even tested this (to see if you could cut down a tree with a machinegun). Against softwoods, they could do it even with a .50cal like a browning, with enough rounds (though it did take a lot of rounds, enough to add up to 500+ sdc). Against a "regular" tree like an Maple, they couldn't quite cut it down without excessive abuse (would have required thousands of rounds). Against a hardwood like teak, or hickory, the trees have effectively thousands of SDC.

To "cut down" the 2ft diameter hickory they had, it took them using a rotary cannon, and hundreds if not thousands of rounds - enough to add up to several thousand SDC.

Now, if we're talking strictly "RAW", then Palladiums few sources for how much SDC trees have leave us with the impression that trees are worthless and have almost no SDC.

My argument, i guess, is that Palladium VASTLY underestimates how much SDC damage a tree can take.

[Pepsi Jedi]

1) Nightmare tree is right.

And I'd further ask... what kind of tree?

is it a NIGHTMARETREE??

Well..... not putting too fine a point on it, palladium(hu) has a shoulder fired RPG ding the same damage as a medium nuclear missile... so.... any damage/SDC has to be kinda eyeballed. Right? Yeah an RPG can put a bit of a hurt on a tank. (Sometimes, if you hit um right) but the things that russians play around with and have had for 80 years... doing the same damage as a nuke? Just smaller radius??

There are a lot of such artifacts. I'm not going to argue that some trees like redwoods, would have 1000s of SDC, but they're not exactly common.

There's also the ironwood trees from Dino swamp.

Thing is 'normal' (Non giant) trees are SDC, and while the -entire- tree may add up to 100s or 1000s you're not gettin 100s or 1000s per square foot. Which is roughly where an MD weapon (Shy of a missile) is going to hit. So yes, MD weapons will core and shatter most non giant SDC trees with no problem. Using them as 'cover' will depend on if you're trying not to be SEEN, or if you're trying not to be SHOT, because as written... hiding behind a Tree in an MD fight is like hiding behind a sheet of paper. Both are gonna stop MD weaponry the 'same' (They're not.) But both could obscure you.

[eliakon]

Whether the robot is completely immobilized under the weight of the tree or not is not what I am looking at in this case. Tree falls on robot, knocking it down and maybe pinning it for a few minutes is all the time that a team of people with MDC blow torches to cut the hatch open and attack the crew from the inside.

couple of actions maybe not minutes.
any robot could quickly dismantle the tree in a few attacks.
It would seam to be unlikely it would be a sufficient obstetrical to do what you are suggesting. After all sdc people have survived trees falling on them.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cen ... -1.3413381

I would further point out a couple things
The first is that it takes skill and training to precisely drop a tree where you want it (lumberjacking) so hitting and pinning then with trees is going to be tricky

The second is that if the tree is weak enough that you can drop it on the robot with ease... then the Robot is going to anhilate the tree with ease too. They get to take actions themselves and will simply smash up a low SDC tree into splinters and walk away. To pin them for MINUTES you will need trees that have hundreds of MDC... at which point the question becomes "Why are people making mecha out of wimpy metal and not these amazingly tough trees"

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

To "cut down" the 2ft diameter hickory they had, it took them using a rotary cannon, and hundreds if not thousands of rounds - enough to add up to several thousand SDC.

Ill re-iterate, since it doesnt seem to be sinking in:

It took 45 seconds of .30 caliber machinegun ammo (7.62x51mm NATO) at 6000 rounds per minute (so roughly 4500 rounds) to simply cut the tree in half along a single line. Not totally destroy the tree... just to cut a line through it one relatively confined are of the tree (a roughly 8” tall x 24” wide section).

Even in Rifts, thats Mega Damage (since we are told that SDC weapons can do MDC on bursts even though individual rounds are SDC.).. and not a small amount of it. To cut through a small section of the tree. And that was a pine. The Mesquite was over a minute. So... 6000+ rounds (which, according to Palladium, inflict 4 or 5D6 sdc each.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY

Edit: per Merc Ops, a .30 cal Light Machine Gun does 1MD per 10 rounds. Soo.. 600MDC or so to chop that Mesquite down. Even assuming only 50% accuracy (which isnt a great assumption, given that thise gyro-mounted guns can be held on target with a single finger, but hey, lets just do it for math)...thats still 300 MDC to blow a hole throuh a 24” diameter hardwood tree.

Further Edit: even better, Merc Ops has the exact gun they used on the Improved Super Cobra - the XM-134. Its listed at 2D6+3 MD per 10 rounds. Ouchu.

[eliakon]

To "cut down" the 2ft diameter hickory they had, it took them using a rotary cannon, and hundreds if not thousands of rounds - enough to add up to several thousand SDC.

Ill re-iterate, since it doesnt seem to be sinking in:

It took 45 seconds of .30 caliber machinegun ammo (7.62x51mm NATO) at 6000 rounds per minute (so roughly 4500 rounds) to simply cut the tree in half along a single line. Not totally destroy the tree... just to cut a line through it one relatively confined are of the tree (a roughly 8” tall x 24” wide section).

Even in Rifts, thats Mega Damage (since we are told that SDC weapons can do MDC on bursts even though individual rounds are SDC.).. and not a small amount of it. To cut through a small section of the tree. And that was a pine. The Mesquite was over a minute. So... 6000+ rounds (which, according to Palladium, inflict 4 or 5D6 sdc each.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY

True...
...but we can't really use real world data for everything otherwise we run into some HUGE problems...
...like the whole 'tanks' thing. Or the damage value for multi-kiloton nuclear weapons or how explosives scale.

But yes, it suggests that trees should have a coulpe hundred SDC... aka can survive minor MD.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To "cut down" the 2ft diameter hickory they had, it took them using a rotary cannon, and hundreds if not thousands of rounds - enough to add up to several thousand SDC.

Ill re-iterate, since it doesnt seem to be sinking in:

It took 45 seconds of .30 caliber machinegun ammo (7.62x51mm NATO) at 6000 rounds per minute (so roughly 4500 rounds) to simply cut the tree in half along a single line. Not totally destroy the tree... just to cut a line through it one relatively confined are of the tree (a roughly 8” tall x 24” wide section).

Even in Rifts, thats Mega Damage (since we are told that SDC weapons can do MDC on bursts even though individual rounds are SDC.).. and not a small amount of it. To cut through a small section of the tree. And that was a pine. The Mesquite was over a minute. So... 6000+ rounds (which, according to Palladium, inflict 4 or 5D6 sdc each.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY

True...
...but we can't really use real world data for everything otherwise we run into some HUGE problems...
...like the whole 'tanks' thing. Or the damage value for multi-kiloton nuclear weapons or how explosives scale.

.

Doesn't happen often but I agree with Eil on this.

You can't use real world comparisons with Palladium damage ratings. Like... at all. Not for nothing but palladium's military 'knowledge' comes from late 70s/early 80s delta force movies and such.

Again in HU 'medium' ICBM Nuclear weapons do the same amount of damage as a shoulder mounted RPG. (1D4X100) You can't really reverse engineer the damage ratings that way with -any- sort of consistency. Then again by the same token a Medium ICBM nuke only does 1D4 Md.....

So.. if we're saying that trees have 100s of SDC per square foot, and that they could take a few MD worth of damage as 'cover' and then using stats for Medium ICBM nukes.... then a pine tree can take a direct impact from a HU nuke.

Now HU nukes aren't Rifts nukes but still it's a 'universal system', so there's something pretty messed up when you try and do such things.

By this same logic. the smallest Vibroblade doing 1D4 or 1D6 MD is either equalling or SURPASSING a HU ICBM Nuclear warhead....

[Nightmartree]

By this same logic. the smallest Vibroblade doing 1D4 or 1D6 MD is either equalling or SURPASSING a HU ICBM Nuclear warhead....

I still need to go read that exact damage listing on nukes but...i'm gonna go the GM call route and just claim they forgot the MD in an sdc setting label (I'd swear at least 1 place in the SDC worlds has MD conversions listed right in the book, not as in sdc-mdc but they tell you "oh ya, that means this 1dsomethingX100 is actually a 1dsomething MD weapon).

I mean, nukes should hurt, and even if your high tech MD structure full environmental suit can take 100-400 MDC of damage and keep on ticking there is very little in game that will shrug that off. As for the actual printing?...well...I feel sad for your nukes man...

And as for trees acting as cover (the non accurate, how many bullets can this soak kind), i'd say give people a one shot clearance for most 1-2ft trees. Its like the pity hand the GM gives you when your MD armor hits 0 but he doesn't let the single MD point remaining go through and turn you into soup. The tree isn't gonna survive or block another shot but what comes out the other side isn't gonna worry someone in MD suits (sdc...your on your own). Kinda like how a bullet loses most of its momentum on the first impact even if it penetrates.

Also don't most MD weapons lack a kinetic impulse? So there is no reason for an attack to continue through a target unless its sustained fire (or a railgun). Lasers and Plasma are highly destructive, but if we go by "science!" admittedly shaky rpg science, then they lack an impulse, they would hit the tree, burn a hole in or set it on fire, maybe cause an explosion due to superheating the water inside the trunk, but that explosion would disperse the plasma/throw debris in the way of the laser in a direction away from the other side of the tree. A laser I can see penetrating and maybe going to the other side but that becomes a question of how much of the coherence of the beam is lost by burning through a foot of solid matter. Plasma I see as kinda a stick goo that makes things explode by super heating them, this means that they do damage by heat and have little to no penetration value until you melt/burn through the outside. I have no idea about Ion or Particle beams. Kinetic bullets likely deform and go way off course or disintegrate on impact (Higher speed bullet, such as those used for MD attacks is more prone to breaking up when it meets resistance, like a 50cal in water i'm assuming).

So...If you don't want attacks to just go through things and destroy everything in your SDC town with one pull of a laser trigger here is your explanation...

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't have my books on me right now, but maybe you guys should look up:
a) The example battle where an SDC car gets blown "in half" when it's hit by mega-damage. Not "totally destroyed," just blown "in half."

b) In at least one of Palladium's books, maybe HU or N&S, it talks about how shooting bullets at a door might put holes in the door, but it doesn't necessarily deplete the door's SDC.

[Blue_Lion]

Whether the robot is completely immobilized under the weight of the tree or not is not what I am looking at in this case. Tree falls on robot, knocking it down and maybe pinning it for a few minutes is all the time that a team of people with MDC blow torches to cut the hatch open and attack the crew from the inside.

couple of actions maybe not minutes.
any robot could quickly dismantle the tree in a few attacks.
It would seam to be unlikely it would be a sufficient obstetrical to do what you are suggesting. After all sdc people have survived trees falling on them.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cen ... -1.3413381

And exactly how is the giant robot going to get out from underneath the tree that fell on them? Because even the strongest robots which boast a Robotic PS of 60, can only lift 3 tons and pull 6 tons (RUE p. 286 Robots with a P.S. of 17 or higher can lift 25 times their P.S. attribute. Thus, a robot with a P.S. of 24 can lift and carry 600 lbs (270 kg) and a robot with a P.S. of 40 can lift and carry half a ton (1000 lbs). Robot P.S. below 17 is equivalent to normal human strength for the purposes of lifting and carrying (P.S. x 10 in lbs.). Note: Giant robots with a PS of 40 or higher can lift and carry 100x their P.S. number (4000 lbs/1800 kg) and pull 200x their P.S. number (8000 lbs/3600 kg)! So 60 x 100 = 6000 lbs, or 3 tons.

If the robot vehicle crew are lucky, then they were facing the tree when it hit them, therefore meaning that they can use their arms/appendages to damage enough of the tree so that they are no longer trapped, but they are going to be working from an awkward position so that's going to slow you down. You might be able to use some your the robot's weapons if parts of the tree are covering the barrels. But that's only after they recover from getting knocked down (ever been in a car wreck? How quickly right after the hit were you able to respond or react?) At best they lose an action before they can react, and at worst they could be stunned for a few minutes! If the tree hit the robot crew from behind, pinning them down on their front, they are now going to be at the mercy of anyone around them because the robot will lack the strength to get their arms under them (even if they were already in an ideal position to do so).

Break the tree into smaller peaces and it can be moved off the robot. Not like the robot can not do MDC with mellee attacks.
Even if the tree hit the robot from behind it could break the tree above and below it. Using its feet for below it and hands for above it.
In addition some robots will have MD weapons they can use. The laser turrets on the UAR-1 would be a good example.

Also there is a chance the tree breaks over the robot.

In addition as the tree branches will disperse the weight over a wide area, the robot will have less than the full weight on it. So The robot may be able to crawl out from under it.

At worse it will take most robots a few actions to free themselves at best they might loose an action.

[Blue_Lion]

To "cut down" the 2ft diameter hickory they had, it took them using a rotary cannon, and hundreds if not thousands of rounds - enough to add up to several thousand SDC.

Ill re-iterate, since it doesnt seem to be sinking in:

It took 45 seconds of .30 caliber machinegun ammo (7.62x51mm NATO) at 6000 rounds per minute (so roughly 4500 rounds) to simply cut the tree in half along a single line. Not totally destroy the tree... just to cut a line through it one relatively confined are of the tree (a roughly 8” tall x 24” wide section).

Even in Rifts, thats Mega Damage (since we are told that SDC weapons can do MDC on bursts even though individual rounds are SDC.).. and not a small amount of it. To cut through a small section of the tree. And that was a pine. The Mesquite was over a minute. So... 6000+ rounds (which, according to Palladium, inflict 4 or 5D6 sdc each.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY

Edit: per Merc Ops, a .30 cal Light Machine Gun does 1MD per 10 rounds. Soo.. 600MDC or so to chop that Mesquite down. Even assuming only 50% accuracy (which isnt a great assumption, given that thise gyro-mounted guns can be held on target with a single finger, but hey, lets just do it for math)...thats still 300 MDC to blow a hole throuh a 24” diameter hardwood tree.

Further Edit: even better, Merc Ops has the exact gun they used on the Improved Super Cobra - the XM-134. Its listed at 2D6+3 MD per 10 rounds. Ouchu.

Rifts damage system does not match real life.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I don't have my books on me right now, but maybe you guys should look up:
a) The example battle where an SDC car gets blown "in half" when it's hit by mega-damage. Not "totally destroyed," just blown "in half."

The blast in question, however, does enough damage to deplete the SDC of the car (as you round MD “up”)

b) In at least one of Palladium's books, maybe HU or N&S, it talks about how shooting bullets at a door might put holes in the door, but it doesn't necessarily deplete the door's SDC.

I dont remember this comments location either, but do remember reading it recently. Id posit theres a big difference between a wooden door (1 3/4” thick) and a 24” thick tree trunk in regards to penetration. Walls of wooden structres, as well, since they arent even solid 2x4 in most cases, just 3/4” flakeboard or plywood and maybe the same inside (or just drywall). Now, a log cabin miht be different (and not as uncommon in Rifts as it is today).

If you watch the video, those rotary canon rounds ARENT penetrating immediately. He has to sustain fire on the same are for a decent amount of time before they penetrate all the way through. And thats from a weapon that Palladium classifies as an MDC weapon in Merc Ops.

Im not saying trees should be MDC structures with hundreds of MDC, merely that the stats Palladium DID give trees are absurdly low and that a decent size tree (18-24”) can probably absorb a shot or two from a pistol or light rifle (2D6 MD or less) before collapsing or being shot through. Or, to sum, “Trees arent tissue paper”.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't have my books on me right now, but maybe you guys should look up:
a) The example battle where an SDC car gets blown "in half" when it's hit by mega-damage. Not "totally destroyed," just blown "in half."

The blast in question, however, does enough damage to deplete the SDC of the car (as you round MD “up”)

b) In at least one of Palladium's books, maybe HU or N&S, it talks about how shooting bullets at a door might put holes in the door, but it doesn't necessarily deplete the door's SDC.

I dont remember this comments location either, but do remember reading it recently. Id posit theres a big difference between a wooden door (1 3/4” thick) and a 24” thick tree trunk in regards to penetration. Walls of wooden structres, as well, since they arent even solid 2x4 in most cases, just 3/4” flakeboard or plywood and maybe the same inside (or just drywall). Now, a log cabin miht be different (and not as uncommon in Rifts as it is today).

If you watch the video, those rotary canon rounds ARENT penetrating immediately. He has to sustain fire on the same are for a decent amount of time before they penetrate all the way through. And thats from a weapon that Palladium classifies as an MDC weapon in Merc Ops.

Im not saying trees should be MDC structures with hundreds of MDC, merely that the stats Palladium DID give trees are absurdly low and that a decent size tree (18-24”) can probably absorb a shot or two from a pistol or light rifle (2D6 MD or less) before collapsing or being shot through. Or, to sum, “Trees arent tissue paper”.

Given the stats we have for trees in England place the sdc at 3d4X100 it is highly likely an MD attack would reduce the tree to 0.
Palladiums damage system is not a true presentation of how hard it is to destroy something. It is just a game mechanic. Now then a tree with max sdc could very easily adsorb a shot or maybe 2 from a light MD weapon like you suggest. That does not mean the tree would necessarily fall before reduced to 0 or that it would fall in set direction.

As was pointed out controlling the way a tree falls would require some sort of skill.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Let's also not forget that even if a tree has a few MDC worth of SDC. It's not 100s and 100s per square foot. Trees may be a foot or two across but they're dozens if not 100s of feet tall depending on breed. If your tree has 1D4X100 SDC it might be able to take a very very minor amount of MD, but .... only if the MD is spread out from base to tip.

That's like going.... "A .... Dbee has ... 400SDC.... so if he holds up a forearm to parry a vibro blade and the vibro blade only rolls 3 damage he's ok.

Well no... because that 400SDC is for the entire Dbee, and if you try and parry with your forearm that blade is going through light saber through a buttertroll.

So we're back to trees not providing cover for MD attacks, as even if they have a few hundred SDC it's spread over the entierty of the tree. Not just that one foot section that's targeted.

Unless people are saying that trees have multiple MD worth of SDC -- per foot --.

To which I would counter the 'Mini gun cutting down a tree video" with this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2NCDJOmaOM
About 2:20, you watch a dude in his ... 60s... 70s... with an SDC Axe get through a tree with no bark (They de-bark um) in 40 seconds.

So under 3 melees, with a simple hand axe. Now if a tree can sustain more than 1MD in damage and not be destroyed, (Thus usable as cover, for at least 1 hit) Then it has a minimum of 2MD

This means that old due had to have surpassed a minimum of 200SDC in 40 seconds. (Technically that's not 3 full melees but for ease we'll call it three melees.) Axe does 2D6... average roll on 2D6 is 7.

So... to get through 200sdc that would take 29 strikes.(28.57, as you can't have half a strike you round up) So via mechanics... that old dude is hitting 10 times per melee?? (( 9.5 but can't have half a hit either))

Now he might be high in level but 10 attacks per-melee is pretty hard to acheive. Even for old dude's with mustashes.

I just don't see it.

[Blue_Lion]

Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't have my books on me right now, but maybe you guys should look up:
a) The example battle where an SDC car gets blown "in half" when it's hit by mega-damage. Not "totally destroyed," just blown "in half."

The blast in question, however, does enough damage to deplete the SDC of the car (as you round MD “up”)

Right.
That's what happens when you deplete the SDC of something: it breaks.
It doesn't get "totally destroyed."

b) In at least one of Palladium's books, maybe HU or N&S, it talks about how shooting bullets at a door might put holes in the door, but it doesn't necessarily deplete the door's SDC.

I dont remember this comments location either, but do remember reading it recently. Id posit theres a big difference between a wooden door (1 3/4” thick) and a 24” thick tree trunk in regards to penetration. Walls of wooden structres, as well, since they arent even solid 2x4 in most cases, just 3/4” flakeboard or plywood and maybe the same inside (or just drywall). Now, a log cabin miht be different (and not as uncommon in Rifts as it is today).

If you watch the video, those rotary canon rounds ARENT penetrating immediately. He has to sustain fire on the same are for a decent amount of time before they penetrate all the way through. And that's from a weapon that Palladium classifies as an MDC weapon in Merc Ops. [/quote]

The bolded part stands out as the part that doesn't make sense.
It doesn't fit... well, anything.
It doesn't describe how the gun works in the real world. It doesn't match how similar guns are described in the game.
And it doesn't fit with the gun taking so long to blast through a tree trunk, especially with the stats that Palladium gives trees.

The gun is supposed to do 2D6+3 MD per burst, for an average of 10 MD per attack.
It took 45 seconds to blast through that tree trunk.
At 4 attacks per melee, over three melee rounds, that's 120 MDC to blast through a tree.

Im not saying trees should be MDC structures with hundreds of MDC, merely that the stats Palladium DID give trees are absurdly low and that a decent size tree (18-24”) can probably absorb a shot or two from a pistol or light rifle (2D6 MD or less) before collapsing or being shot through. Or, to sum, “Trees arent tissue paper”.

Trees aren't tissue paper.
But a full stick of TNT does less than 1/2 of 1 point of mega-damage.
Often closet to 1/4 of 1 point.
And axes (and even chainsaws) do a LOT less, but we still used them to fell trees.

[dreicunan]

Point based damage systems do a terrible job of modeling real world damage. They are just a fairly necessary abstraction for a game.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

So standing behind a tree 50 or 200ft tall, You get the benefit of 100% of the SDC 6feet or under right at the ground and everything 7 or 8 feet up has..... no SDC?

Come on now blue. That makes no sense what so ever. Clearly the SDC has to be spread out. Now not every twig on every branch has equal SDC, but it's a tree. You can't have 100% of the SDC just in the spot you want to hide behind and leave dozens if not 100s of feet with out. That's like saying a cat hiding behind your ankles gets the benefit of 100% of your SDC if someone's trying to attack it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Point based damage systems do a terrible job of modeling real world damage. They are just a fairly necessary abstraction for a game.

This is a point that's often forgotten. This is a game, written by imperfect beings trying to represent 'life' in a manner that's easy and digestable by a 12 year old. If anything Palladium is more number heavy than many systems and.... as it's trying to replicate life (In miniature) It simplifies a lot of things, and some things are not replicated well. Be it mechanical limitation of the system or ignorance of real life sorts of things (Palladium's lack of technical knowledge/mechanics for example, or lack of military knowledge beyond late 70s/early 80s delta force movies).

So.... trying to expect an RPG to 'accurately portray all real world functions" Is just not going to happen. Some do better than others. Palladium isn't the best. It's not the worst.

[guardiandashi]

Trees where stated as having 3d4x100 sdc in rifts england.
The trunk of the tree is the main body so it would be like hiding behind the debee with 400 sdc when he gets hit not parring with his fore arm.

A tree would provide about the same amount of protection as sandbags or large rocks used for cover in rifts Merc.

So standing behind a tree 50 or 200ft tall, You get the benefit of 100% of the SDC 6feet or under right at the ground and everything 7 or 8 feet up has..... no SDC?

Come on now blue. That makes no sense what so ever. Clearly the SDC has to be spread out. Now not every twig on every branch has equal SDC, but it's a tree. You can't have 100% of the SDC just in the spot you want to hide behind and leave dozens if not 100s of feet with out. That's like saying a cat hiding behind your ankles gets the benefit of 100% of your SDC if someone's trying to attack it.

I would say yes and no.
the thing to remember is that the trunk of the tree is its main body, as we have seen palladium damage taking is rather wonky that way, in that main body is kind of a pool of total damage taking, but its also a specific hit location that you can attack and deplete.

when looking at a tree and saying it has ~1d4x100 sdc then I have no inherent issue saying that it can take a mdc blast that does lethal damage without immediately blowing the trunk completely apart and obliterating the tree.

you could also make the argument that axes and chain saws work on a special vulnerability of trees. much like were creatures and silver because I can also tell you that if you don't use the axe right you can chop and chop on the tree for a long time and not accomplish much. but if you use it right you can cut through the tree pretty fast.

the thing is guns (bullets) are not the correct way to try to cut a tree down, and using it is effectively attacking the tree going up against its greatest resistance to damage, not its weakest way of absorbing damage