Texas-sized Frustration

[RockJock]

Well the Vintax see Erin Tarn as "practically a god", so she should be able to rally a large number. As for the Squilbs there are 40k on the Southern border waiting for someone to lead them against the Vamps. While that is spread over a couple of states it is still a fair number of soldiers to add to someplace like Arzno. The rest of the population is all over.

There are some races like the Vanguard Brawlers listed with a large population(at least half a mil) to other D-Bees without much detail at all.

Oh no....not the slugs.....

[Pepsi Jedi]

The thing with that is you're quoting entire populations. Men women, children, and most importantly non combatants.

40K people might sound impressive but even assuming an astronomical number like 1 in 10 is under arms that's just 4K to add to a build up.

the CS have MILLIONS. 4+ MILLIONS. 40K is noooothing. the CS has the tech advantage and money advantage too.

4K troops sound impressive to mud farmers in Jayne's town, but to the CS it's an afternoon betting pool.

People have a hard time conceptualizing large numbers. When 1000 or even 40,000 sounds huge, they tend to not wrap their mind around 4,500,000. That's not a cut at anyone. It's just an aspect of human nature that many possess. Four thousand sounds big. Four million sounds bigger but the difference between Four thousand and fourty thousand is largely lost, and the difference between fourty thousand and four point five million is lost on even more.

Kevin -surely- displays this. As he's the one publishing the numbers, and making statements like "There's towns in the baronies 1000s of miles apart"

[Nightmartree]

Just assume that any travel beyond 20 miles is subject to radical distortion due to dimensional anomalies and the setting as written starts to make a little more sense.

Not necessarily 20 miles, I mean if you take the time, effort, lost resources and cases of poking the hornets nest you might be able to find routes that allow you to travel the length of the U.S. in the normal times it would take for a suit of power armor breaking the speed of sound. Heck maybe you'll do it in less time...

But I support this explanation, I mean, some dimensional folds and energies and magic and blah blah blah turns the earth from "hey I can hit japan with a missile from here" to "Man I hope this coalition patrol stops chasing soon, I don't know whats ahead but I should have hit the atlantic by now, not a frozen tundra". It basically allows you to handwave a lot of "details" with the wonderful line of "a wizard...wait, a god...no oops this one is uhhh, a random dimensional anomalie did it"

There is more than one case of things "swapping" land with other dimensional places, maybe the land that gets swapped dimensions don't quite fit what our maps say they do, a classic case of "The inside dimensions are different from the outsides"

[RockJock]

I picked the Vintax and the Squilbs for a reason as my examples. The Squilbs because the passage about the 40k in D-Bees of North America says they are ready to join a leader, and march off to war against the vamps. I read that as combat troops, not families, but it isn't defined. The Vintax are warriors. Male, female, doesn't matter they are all RCC warriors, and have always been. So again, I see a whole lot more than 10% being combat troops. The only non combatants among the Vintax are too young/old to fight. Based on the below I don't think these two groups really fit as "average" populations.

I tend to go with the idea that there is no possible way to really debate Rifts populations because there are too many inconsistencies, and things that flatly don't make sense in various books.

The CS has a large population, and large military. I have no clue what the current "official" population number, or military size of the CS is, if there is one. My guess is the military makes up too large of a percentage of the general population to make real world sense, but maybe there are enough wannabee Deadboys from outside the CS, and new Dog Boys to make it work.

A crazy example of fighters as a percentage of the population is found on page 206 of Spirit West, under the Fort Apache population. Basically Fort Apache has a listing of 113,500 people. Out of the 113k you have 6k of modern troops, which is a reasonable number around 5% fighters. The problem is you also have 25,000 traditional warriors and shamans bringing the percentage under arms into the high 20s.

If you use real US demographics as a starting point Fort Apache is just nuts. Roughly 37% of the US is either under 18, or over 65. If you apply this to the 113k almost every able man and woman between 18-65 would need to be combat capable. You can argue that less of the population in Rifts lives to be over 65, but the counter is a higher percentage of the population would be under 18. I understand that hunters and warriors double duty, but still the number is crazy.

[dreicunan]

All of this talk of 40k has me wanting to run a crossover campaign where the grim darkness of the future shows up to make Rifts even more over the top.

40 chapters worth of Space Marines vs everyone on the planet = Victory for the Emprah!

[Khanibal]

Well, the CS has a plan for expansion, and I guess Houston isn't next on the list. It's on the list, just not next. Their 150 year plan includes expansion into space. They'll run afoul of Splynncryth before then. Not to mention the human supremacy won't play well with the more advanced races in the galaxy, not to mention the Megaverse.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well, the CS has a plan for expansion, and I guess Houston isn't next on the list. It's on the list, just not next. Their 150 year plan includes expansion into space.

That plan will probably be revised in the face of reality - I.E. they can't get into Outer Space because the orbital community will blow away anything they send up.

They'll run afoul of Splynncryth before then.

Only if they go at him full-bore/try to invade Atlantis. He doesn't want the whole planet. If the CS controls all of NA, he wont really care. If they start impinging on his profits, then perhaps hell care.

Not to mention the human supremacy won't play well with the more advanced races in the galaxy,

Which races are those, exactly? We know of precisely ONE advanced/spacefaring race in the Milky Way - the Arkhons. And they are just as bad as the CS.

not to mention the Megaverse.

Since they dont really do Dimensional Travel, i dont think this is a real concern for them.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

All of this talk of 40k has me wanting to run a crossover campaign where the grim darkness of the future shows up to make Rifts even more over the top.

40 chapters worth of Space Marines vs everyone on the planet = Victory for the Emprah!

.... eh? I'm thinking not. 40,000 Space Marines isn't going to make a dent. Ill grant that Imperial weapons and Power Armor are MDC, as are their vehicles, but Rifts Earth is just as advanced (if not more advanced) than the rather hidebound Imperium, even counting the new-and-improved Space-marines-in-your-space-marines Primaris Marines.

Yeah, they might be worth 3 or 4 guys each, but the CS can match them 10 to 1 and still win. And that's just the CS.

An enemy like Free Quebec would wreck Astartes pretty hard.

Infantry in 40k is dudes in flak jackets (or maybe a ceramite breastplate) with flashlights. Infantry in Rifts is a lot more equivalent to say, Sisters of Battle - non-augmented humans in high-grade armor.

[kaid]

The thing with that is you're quoting entire populations. Men women, children, and most importantly non combatants.

40K people might sound impressive but even assuming an astronomical number like 1 in 10 is under arms that's just 4K to add to a build up.

the CS have MILLIONS. 4+ MILLIONS. 40K is noooothing. the CS has the tech advantage and money advantage too.

4K troops sound impressive to mud farmers in Jayne's town, but to the CS it's an afternoon betting pool.

People have a hard time conceptualizing large numbers. When 1000 or even 40,000 sounds huge, they tend to not wrap their mind around 4,500,000. That's not a cut at anyone. It's just an aspect of human nature that many possess. Four thousand sounds big. Four million sounds bigger but the difference between Four thousand and fourty thousand is largely lost, and the difference between fourty thousand and four point five million is lost on even more.

Kevin -surely- displays this. As he's the one publishing the numbers, and making statements like "There's towns in the baronies 1000s of miles apart"

Funny thing I have been reading some starfinder books and palladium is not the only ones that have some issues with population numbers. Seeing cities listed as a metropolis with a population of 160k beings is pretty lol WUT? The palladium ones raise some eyebrows but given how the archologies of the CS state fortress cities are described the population likely is not totally unreasonable. And for things like hundreds of K of some species listed in Dbees of north america that is across their entire range so if they are concentrated they have a small to mid sized city but more likely they are spread out over a huge area so are moderately common Dbee type.

[kaid]

I picked the Vintax and the Squilbs for a reason as my examples. The Squilbs because the passage about the 40k in D-Bees of North America says they are ready to join a leader, and march off to war against the vamps. I read that as combat troops, not families, but it isn't defined. The Vintax are warriors. Male, female, doesn't matter they are all RCC warriors, and have always been. So again, I see a whole lot more than 10% being combat troops. The only non combatants among the Vintax are too young/old to fight. Based on the below I don't think these two groups really fit as "average" populations.

I tend to go with the idea that there is no possible way to really debate Rifts populations because there are too many inconsistencies, and things that flatly don't make sense in various books.

The CS has a large population, and large military. I have no clue what the current "official" population number, or military size of the CS is, if there is one. My guess is the military makes up too large of a percentage of the general population to make real world sense, but maybe there are enough wannabee Deadboys from outside the CS, and new Dog Boys to make it work.

A crazy example of fighters as a percentage of the population is found on page 206 of Spirit West, under the Fort Apache population. Basically Fort Apache has a listing of 113,500 people. Out of the 113k you have 6k of modern troops, which is a reasonable number around 5% fighters. The problem is you also have 25,000 traditional warriors and shamans bringing the percentage under arms into the high 20s.

If you use real US demographics as a starting point Fort Apache is just nuts. Roughly 37% of the US is either under 18, or over 65. If you apply this to the 113k almost every able man and woman between 18-65 would need to be combat capable. You can argue that less of the population in Rifts lives to be over 65, but the counter is a higher percentage of the population would be under 18. I understand that hunters and warriors double duty, but still the number is crazy.

Nearly all the places on rifts earth seem to run very much on the high side of the total population listed as combatants. Some of this is the switzerland model where every single able bodied person is trained how to fight simply because you can't afford not to with the threats roaming around. How many of those are ever deployed actively is an open question. Most probably go about their business until/unless some major threat happens.

Some of it also could just be darwinian selection. You are strong enough to defend yourself and fight or you just don't survive long. There is a major incentive for people to become fighters or shaman if they have that capability. There is a reason being a juicer is a popular option amongst tech people your life expectancy drops like a rock but for that period of time you are very capable of defending yourself or at worst running away from just about any threat.

[kaid]

All of this talk of 40k has me wanting to run a crossover campaign where the grim darkness of the future shows up to make Rifts even more over the top.

40 chapters worth of Space Marines vs everyone on the planet = Victory for the Emprah!

.... eh? I'm thinking not. 40,000 Space Marines isn't going to make a dent. Ill grant that Imperial weapons and Power Armor are MDC, as are their vehicles, but Rifts Earth is just as advanced (if not more advanced) than the rather hidebound Imperium, even counting the new-and-improved Space-marines-in-your-space-marines Primaris Marines.

Yeah, they might be worth 3 or 4 guys each, but the CS can match them 10 to 1 and still win. And that's just the CS.

An enemy like Free Quebec would wreck Astartes pretty hard.

Infantry in 40k is dudes in flak jackets (or maybe a ceramite breastplate) with flashlights. Infantry in Rifts is a lot more equivalent to say, Sisters of Battle - non-augmented humans in high-grade armor.

40k is the king of the numbers make no sense. Seriously your space marine super soldier chapters are 1k space marines. On a planetary scale that is a decent sized special forces but not really that major of a threat. Now on a galaxy wide level each chapter is basically an ineffective drop in the bucket.

[dreicunan]

All of this talk of 40k has me wanting to run a crossover campaign where the grim darkness of the future shows up to make Rifts even more over the top.

40 chapters worth of Space Marines vs everyone on the planet = Victory for the Emprah!

.... eh? I'm thinking not. 40,000 Space Marines isn't going to make a dent. Ill grant that Imperial weapons and Power Armor are MDC, as are their vehicles, but Rifts Earth is just as advanced (if not more advanced) than the rather hidebound Imperium, even counting the new-and-improved Space-marines-in-your-space-marines Primaris Marines.

Yeah, they might be worth 3 or 4 guys each, but the CS can match them 10 to 1 and still win. And that's just the CS.

An enemy like Free Quebec would wreck Astartes pretty hard.

Infantry in 40k is dudes in flak jackets (or maybe a ceramite breastplate) with flashlights. Infantry in Rifts is a lot more equivalent to say, Sisters of Battle - non-augmented humans in high-grade armor.

There is not enough LOL in the universe to express how hard this made me laugh when I read it. That you are both able to be aware of Primaris Marines and yet still think based on the lore that Rifts Earth is even close to, yet alone more advanced than, the tech level of the Imperium is a state of cognitive dissonance that would cause the Emperor to crap out at least 5 warpstorms. Rifts Earth only needs about 20 to 25 milleniums' worth of advancement to catch up with the Imperium.

[Daniel Stoker]

<pulls out the popcorn>


Daniel Stoker

[The Beast]

So, 1997 was a busy year for Palladium. Two of the books published were World Book 13: Lone Star and Sourcebook 4: Coalition Navy.

Coalition Navy is set in about 103 PA. In 100 PA, the Coalition launched a massive strike on Port Horus, a small kingdom just west of Beaumont, Texas. They utterly destroyed it, and built a massive military installation, Fort Pinnacle, in its place. Fort Pinnacle, with a population of almost 100,000 people, and a military complement of 35,000 CS Navy personnel. It is now a 10 square mile military base and a full-on Coalition city.

Rifts: Lone Star is set in 105 PA, and has a page or so about the city of Houstown (some in that section, some of its history with the NPC stat block for the mayor). A free city, with a Titan Mystic as a mayor, it has an unusually high population of psi-stalkers (6400), and a total population of just under 30,000 people. As you might guess from the name, it is built around the city of Houston. No mention of Fort Pinnacle but, hey, Texas is a big place. How far apart can they be?
Houston to Beaumont is a bit less than 90 miles. The Coalition could sit in their Navy base and destroy Houston with missiles and wouldn't even need to put on PANTS. The military population of Fort Pinnacle is 25% larger than the total population of Houstown.

Now, there are a couple possibilities. It's possible that something, in 103 or 104 PA, utterly destroyed the massive Coalition base, allowing Houstown to return to the free and happy people they're presented as being in Lone Star. Or, perhaps you favor the "Houstown is obviously so gone it didn't even get a mention in CS Navy".

But when two cities, 84.9 miles apart, don't even mention each other, despite being the major powers in the area, you have to wonder at the lack of a map or something to see what's going on.

Your distance is kind of off. You're using how far it is on today's roads. Straight-line distance they're both just under 78 miles apart from each other's center.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well, the CS has a plan for expansion, and I guess Houston isn't next on the list. It's on the list, just not next. Their 150 year plan includes expansion into space. They'll run afoul of Splynncryth before then. Not to mention the human supremacy won't play well with the more advanced races in the galaxy, not to mention the Megaverse.

Ehh doesn't the 'largest' political group in the 3G consist of humans at the head? One planet of humans isn't going to make the galaxy blink. The only way the galaxy would care is if the CS found some way to "Close" Rifts earth to "Rifts"

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well, the CS has a plan for expansion, and I guess Houston isn't next on the list. It's on the list, just not next. Their 150 year plan includes expansion into space.

That plan will probably be revised in the face of reality - I.E. they can't get into Outer Space because the orbital community will blow away anything they send up.

They'll run afoul of Splynncryth before then.

Only if they go at him full-bore/try to invade Atlantis. He doesn't want the whole planet. If the CS controls all of NA, he wont really care. If they start impinging on his profits, then perhaps hell care.

Not to mention the human supremacy won't play well with the more advanced races in the galaxy,

Which races are those, exactly? We know of precisely ONE advanced/spacefaring race in the Milky Way - the Arkhons. And they are just as bad as the CS.

not to mention the Megaverse.

Since they dont really do Dimensional Travel, i dont think this is a real concern for them.

Ehh the CS could go to space if they put their minds to it. If you actually read the deployment of the Killer Sats they're so far a part it's comical. All the CS would need to do is get a few telescopes and spend some time plotting them out. Then launch in the holes get up there and kick alot of butt. The CS has SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many people and even if they didn't use PEOPLE they have skelebots and stuff.

In space, you don'th ave to deplete every last mdc of every object. Enough breaches and the people inside die. It's a different sort of fight. The CS have numbers to literally Zerg their way to the space stations and slam them out of orbit with corpses, if they wanted to go that way. (It'd be silly but they 'could')

[Mack]

If the space colonies are even marginally competent then the CS would never make it off the launch pad.

[Khanibal]

Ehh doesn't the 'largest' political group in the 3G consist of humans at the head? One planet of humans isn't going to make the galaxy blink. The only way the galaxy would care is if the CS found some way to "Close" Rifts earth to "Rifts"

That's the thing about using fear and constant war to keep in power. If you defeat all the local enemies, you have to go looking for new ones.

[SolCannibal]

Ehh doesn't the 'largest' political group in the 3G consist of humans at the head? One planet of humans isn't going to make the galaxy blink. The only way the galaxy would care is if the CS found some way to "Close" Rifts earth to "Rifts"

That's the thing about using fear and constant war to keep in power. If you defeat all the local enemies, you have to go looking for new ones.

Well, i would guess there's a lot of steps along the way before the Coalition might even have anything like a serious chance to stop and think on the subject of "striking at the cosmos" and such. Rifts Earth is a pretty big place on itself for them to deal with. Occupied land, invaded oceans, who knows what might or not be hiding under the depths of earth or among the clouds, the even more paranoid survivors in orbit (that depending on circunstances and diplomacy might not be that terribly complicated to negotiate with, what's even scarier, from a certain point of view) and whatever may one find in Mars or other celestial bodies of the Solar System.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

All of this talk of 40k has me wanting to run a crossover campaign where the grim darkness of the future shows up to make Rifts even more over the top.

40 chapters worth of Space Marines vs everyone on the planet = Victory for the Emprah!

.... eh? I'm thinking not. 40,000 Space Marines isn't going to make a dent. Ill grant that Imperial weapons and Power Armor are MDC, as are their vehicles, but Rifts Earth is just as advanced (if not more advanced) than the rather hidebound Imperium, even counting the new-and-improved Space-marines-in-your-space-marines Primaris Marines.

Yeah, they might be worth 3 or 4 guys each, but the CS can match them 10 to 1 and still win. And that's just the CS.

An enemy like Free Quebec would wreck Astartes pretty hard.

Infantry in 40k is dudes in flak jackets (or maybe a ceramite breastplate) with flashlights. Infantry in Rifts is a lot more equivalent to say, Sisters of Battle - non-augmented humans in high-grade armor.

There is not enough LOL in the universe to express how hard this made me laugh when I read it. That you are both able to be aware of Primaris Marines and yet still think based on the lore that Rifts Earth is even close to, yet alone more advanced than, the tech level of the Imperium is a state of cognitive dissonance that would cause the Emperor to crap out at least 5 warpstorms. Rifts Earth only needs about 20 to 25 milleniums' worth of advancement to catch up with the Imperium.

I think you're deluded, if you think the Imperium is more advanced than Rifts Earth.

Like i said, i can easily believe Imperial Power Armor (worn by Astartes, Sisters, and some other important folks like Inquisitors) is Mega-Damage, as are the vehicles. It can definitely take punishment.

But to say its more advanced than anything on Rifts Earth? Eh.. no. Not remotely.

Infantry in Rifts can have MDC armor. Imperial Guard in Warhammer do NOT have MDC armor. They have flak jackets, or sometimes ceramite clamshells. They carry a laser rifle (depending on the Regiment in question, some carry regular fire-arms, some carry lasguns, others carry a mix, etc) that isn't even particularly good at penetrating their own flak armor.

Astartes Power Armor, while quite good, isn't particularly more advanced than Rifts powered armor - in fact, in many cases its not nearly as good. (The communications equipment isnt better, they dont have Radar and other sensors, etc). Couple that with the fact that even conventional rounds can still kill an Astartes in power armor with a lucky shot or powerful enough fire-arm, and ... yeah, it's not really any better than Rifts powered armor. And something like a SAMAS would run rings around an Assault Marine.

Their vehicles are relatively primitive - The Leman Russ runs on diesel fuel ffs - though effective and durable. Even a Baneblade isn't a miracle of high technology - its just a really big tank. The CS has the Firestorm Fortress, which id say is a sight more advanced than a Baneblade (on par with those mobile command fortresses the Guard can get) The Land Raider is certainly an impressive piece of armor, but it isn't more advanced (or more capable of killing people) than a lot of tanks from Rifts.

Both tech bases have plasma cannons; difference being, on Rifts Earth, they dont explode if you fire them too often.

Bolters are just explosive projectiles - similar to the Triax explosive rounds.

Lasguns are -less- powerful than a Rifts laser rifle (as they barely have any affect on well-armored anything).

Lascannons are powerful - but there are powerful laser cannons in Rifts too.

Rifts even has some weapons that the Imperium doesn't - like Particle Beams and Ion weaponry. Though im not really sure what to classify a Meltagun as.

Im sure you see where we're going here.

While there are some pieces of technology that the Imperium has held onto that are more advanced that Rifts Earth tech, most of it is not. A lot of it is equivalent to, or slightly less technologically advanced but still very serviceable.

Part of the entire premise of technology in 40k is that the Imperium doesn't even really understand the technology they have, and have, in fact, been losing bits of technology as time has gone on. Its all created by religious rote and tradition. Very, VERY few Mechanicus Magos actually innovate or develop something new. Even the Primaris Marines aren't really "new" - Cawl didn't invent them, he merely found a way to integrate something the Emperor had already created (the 3 new Gene Seed organs, that were used in the creation of the Primarchs) into the existing mix. And that took him ~9000 years or so. His new Bolter pattern is just a refinement of earlier technology, as is the "upgraded" power armor that the Primaris Marines wear. The decay and gradual loss of their tech base is a key story element in 40k, even after Rowboat's return and the Indomitus Crusade.

There are some areas where the Imperium has a tech advantage - they have energy shields for larger vehicles (space ships and some of the super-heavy tanks and Titans) which is something only Triax has on Rifts Earth, and theirs aren't that impressive - they have artificial gravity, though the actual usefulness of that is debatable. They DONT have faster-than-light travel (neither does any power on Rifts Earth, of course) - as travel through the Warp isnt really going faster than light, and there is no version of the Warp in Rifts. But we DO know that Triax in particular is only ~20-30 years behind the Three Galaxies technologically, and they DO have FTL travel.

Again, i'm not saying that the Imperium's forces are chump change/nothing... but 40,000 Astartes isn't that many when they have to face down (from the CS alone) millions of men under arms, who have weapons that can harm them, a huge number of which are ALSO in Power Armor of their own, and plenty of Armor and Robot support as well. Even if we say that an Astartes in Power Armor has several hundred MDC, thats not going to last long against battalions of SAMs and Terror Troopers.

The reason Astartes are so amazing in 40k is that the forces they are deployed against, other than Chaos Marines, are universally weaker than they are. Like, MUCH weaker. So when you land 40,000 Astartes on a planet in 40k, they can easily account for ten times their number in casualties because by and large, the enemy has weapons that can only hurt Astartes on a lucky shot or if they mass up on one, and the Astartes practice maneuver warfare - they dont get bogged down killing infantry - they strike at the general and decapitate the enemy leadership. Theyll only stand in an attrition fight when they must defend something.

And on top of that... Astartes on Rifts are going to have to deal with real, honest-to-god Magic. Not the (fairly limited) psychic magic of the Warp, but real, honest to goodness defies the laws of reality Magic. It's a huge equalizer against a force like the Astartes. Carpet of Adehsion doesn't care that you're a Space Marine - you're still stuck and helpless. Invisibility doesn't care about your advanced senses. Impervious to Energy removes a number of the Astartes best weapons from the field.

[The Beast]

Take the Warhammer crap elsewhere. No one here cares about it.

[SolCannibal]

Take the Warhammer crap elsewhere. No one here cares about it.

Yes, please, go compare the sizes of your fanwanks somewhere else, it would be much appreciated.

[dreicunan]

All of this talk of 40k has me wanting to run a crossover campaign where the grim darkness of the future shows up to make Rifts even more over the top.

40 chapters worth of Space Marines vs everyone on the planet = Victory for the Emprah!

.... eh? I'm thinking not. 40,000 Space Marines isn't going to make a dent. Ill grant that Imperial weapons and Power Armor are MDC, as are their vehicles, but Rifts Earth is just as advanced (if not more advanced) than the rather hidebound Imperium, even counting the new-and-improved Space-marines-in-your-space-marines Primaris Marines.

Yeah, they might be worth 3 or 4 guys each, but the CS can match them 10 to 1 and still win. And that's just the CS.

An enemy like Free Quebec would wreck Astartes pretty hard.

Infantry in 40k is dudes in flak jackets (or maybe a ceramite breastplate) with flashlights. Infantry in Rifts is a lot more equivalent to say, Sisters of Battle - non-augmented humans in high-grade armor.

There is not enough LOL in the universe to express how hard this made me laugh when I read it. That you are both able to be aware of Primaris Marines and yet still think based on the lore that Rifts Earth is even close to, yet alone more advanced than, the tech level of the Imperium is a state of cognitive dissonance that would cause the Emperor to crap out at least 5 warpstorms. Rifts Earth only needs about 20 to 25 milleniums' worth of advancement to catch up with the Imperium.

I think you're deluded, if you think the Imperium is more advanced than Rifts Earth.

Like i said, i can easily believe Imperial Power Armor (worn by Astartes, Sisters, and some other important folks like Inquisitors) is Mega-Damage, as are the vehicles. It can definitely take punishment.

But to say its more advanced than anything on Rifts Earth? Eh.. no. Not remotely.

Infantry in Rifts can have MDC armor. Imperial Guard in Warhammer do NOT have MDC armor. They have flak jackets, or sometimes ceramite clamshells. They carry a laser rifle (depending on the Regiment in question, some carry regular fire-arms, some carry lasguns, others carry a mix, etc) that isn't even particularly good at penetrating their own flak armor.

Astartes Power Armor, while quite good, isn't particularly more advanced than Rifts powered armor - in fact, in many cases its not nearly as good. (The communications equipment isnt better, they dont have Radar and other sensors, etc). Couple that with the fact that even conventional rounds can still kill an Astartes in power armor with a lucky shot or powerful enough fire-arm, and ... yeah, it's not really any better than Rifts powered armor. And something like a SAMAS would run rings around an Assault Marine.

Their vehicles are relatively primitive - The Leman Russ runs on diesel fuel ffs - though effective and durable. Even a Baneblade isn't a miracle of high technology - its just a really big tank. The CS has the Firestorm Fortress, which id say is a sight more advanced than a Baneblade (on par with those mobile command fortresses the Guard can get) The Land Raider is certainly an impressive piece of armor, but it isn't more advanced (or more capable of killing people) than a lot of tanks from Rifts.

Both tech bases have plasma cannons; difference being, on Rifts Earth, they dont explode if you fire them too often.

Bolters are just explosive projectiles - similar to the Triax explosive rounds.

Lasguns are -less- powerful than a Rifts laser rifle (as they barely have any affect on well-armored anything).

Lascannons are powerful - but there are powerful laser cannons in Rifts too.

Rifts even has some weapons that the Imperium doesn't - like Particle Beams and Ion weaponry. Though im not really sure what to classify a Meltagun as.

Im sure you see where we're going here.

While there are some pieces of technology that the Imperium has held onto that are more advanced that Rifts Earth tech, most of it is not. A lot of it is equivalent to, or slightly less technologically advanced but still very serviceable.

Part of the entire premise of technology in 40k is that the Imperium doesn't even really understand the technology they have, and have, in fact, been losing bits of technology as time has gone on. Its all created by religious rote and tradition. Very, VERY few Mechanicus Magos actually innovate or develop something new. Even the Primaris Marines aren't really "new" - Cawl didn't invent them, he merely found a way to integrate something the Emperor had already created (the 3 new Gene Seed organs, that were used in the creation of the Primarchs) into the existing mix. And that took him ~9000 years or so. His new Bolter pattern is just a refinement of earlier technology, as is the "upgraded" power armor that the Primaris Marines wear. The decay and gradual loss of their tech base is a key story element in 40k, even after Rowboat's return and the Indomitus Crusade.

There are some areas where the Imperium has a tech advantage - they have energy shields for larger vehicles (space ships and some of the super-heavy tanks and Titans) which is something only Triax has on Rifts Earth, and theirs aren't that impressive - they have artificial gravity, though the actual usefulness of that is debatable. They DONT have faster-than-light travel (neither does any power on Rifts Earth, of course) - as travel through the Warp isnt really going faster than light, and there is no version of the Warp in Rifts. But we DO know that Triax in particular is only ~20-30 years behind the Three Galaxies technologically, and they DO have FTL travel.

Again, i'm not saying that the Imperium's forces are chump change/nothing... but 40,000 Astartes isn't that many when they have to face down (from the CS alone) millions of men under arms, who have weapons that can harm them, a huge number of which are ALSO in Power Armor of their own, and plenty of Armor and Robot support as well. Even if we say that an Astartes in Power Armor has several hundred MDC, thats not going to last long against battalions of SAMs and Terror Troopers.

The reason Astartes are so amazing in 40k is that the forces they are deployed against, other than Chaos Marines, are universally weaker than they are. Like, MUCH weaker. So when you land 40,000 Astartes on a planet in 40k, they can easily account for ten times their number in casualties because by and large, the enemy has weapons that can only hurt Astartes on a lucky shot or if they mass up on one, and the Astartes practice maneuver warfare - they dont get bogged down killing infantry - they strike at the general and decapitate the enemy leadership. Theyll only stand in an attrition fight when they must defend something.

And on top of that... Astartes on Rifts are going to have to deal with real, honest-to-god Magic. Not the (fairly limited) psychic magic of the Warp, but real, honest to goodness defies the laws of reality Magic. It's a huge equalizer against a force like the Astartes. Carpet of Adehsion doesn't care that you're a Space Marine - you're still stuck and helpless. Invisibility doesn't care about your advanced senses. Impervious to Energy removes a number of the Astartes best weapons from the field.

While, I think that you are deluded if you think that rifts earth is even close to the Imperium's tech level. They had a 25,000 year head start on tech level, so they can afford to lose a bunch of that and still be well ahead. So we both think the other is deluded, hooray. I categorically disagree with you about how you are converting things like the Imperium's flak armor and lasguns, but since we can't actually post conversions here there isn't much point in debating that further.

The only other point that I would make here is that I didn't just mean 40,000 marines fighting as infantry. 40 chapters worth of Marines is coming with a whole bunch of hardware, including a space presence that I'm sure you would agree would have control of the solar system, and that alone would pretty much guarantee their eventual victory (because as you correctly pointed out, they wouldn't fight stupid).

@The Beast: Clearly at least two people here care about it, so what you've said is demonstrably false.

@SolCannibal: You're just jealous that both Colonel_Tetsuya and I have bigger fanwanks than you do.

[Blue_Lion]

Well, the CS has a plan for expansion, and I guess Houston isn't next on the list. It's on the list, just not next. Their 150 year plan includes expansion into space.

That plan will probably be revised in the face of reality - I.E. they can't get into Outer Space because the orbital community will blow away anything they send up.

They'll run afoul of Splynncryth before then.

Only if they go at him full-bore/try to invade Atlantis. He doesn't want the whole planet. If the CS controls all of NA, he wont really care. If they start impinging on his profits, then perhaps hell care.

Not to mention the human supremacy won't play well with the more advanced races in the galaxy,

Which races are those, exactly? We know of precisely ONE advanced/spacefaring race in the Milky Way - the Arkhons. And they are just as bad as the CS.

not to mention the Megaverse.

Since they dont really do Dimensional Travel, i dont think this is a real concern for them.

Well if CS expansion makes it hard for him to get slaves he would care.(he does have 3rd parties in NA that sell him slaves. such as bandits and pirates, a key event to expansion would be eliminating such criminals.)
If CS expansion ruins things he is betting on he would care.( Atlantis bets on conflicts if the only conflict for him to bet on was the CS, he would care.)
If he thinks they are getting to powerful he will care.

But CS does not know what he would care about.

[SolCannibal]

Well, the CS still has to deal with loads of things on its plate before actually considering a confrontation with Atlantis, truth be told.

There's much land that composed the "Old American Empire" that has not been pacified and sanitized yet, not to mention whichever surprises might come from old Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Greenland & other places also in North America. Central & South America should also bring a bunch of other challenges, even without some serious confrontation with the Splugorth, as very few places fit into the CS' idea of a good, safe place for humanity to prosper healthily again.

That said, i can kind of see some groups in the CS advocating transdimensional exploration and campaigning, not exactly from an expansionist agenda even, but from a "defense of vital space/hit potential invaders first" strategic standpoint. Taking over strategic spots transdimensional intruders might have used as entry points.

I can specially see Joseph II, who can be viciously pragmatical in his exploitation of any resources provided, technogical, mystical or other, trying to promote this kind of two-faced plan.

[Mack]

Let's not get this forum bogged down discussing other game systems.

We have a forum titled Other Games for the purpose.

[Blue_Lion]

Well, the CS still has to deal with loads of things on its plate before actually considering a confrontation with Atlantis, truth be told.

There's much land that composed the "Old American Empire" that has not been pacified and sanitized yet, not to mention whichever surprises might come from old Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Greenland & other places also in North America. Central & South America should also bring a bunch of other challenges, even without some serious confrontation with the Splugorth, as very few places fit into the CS' idea of a good, safe place for humanity to prosper healthly again.

That said, i can kind of see some groups in the CS advocating transdimensional exploration and campaigning, not exactly from a expansionist agenda even, but from a "defense of vital space/hit potential invaders first" strategic standpoint. Taking over strategic spots transdimensional intruders might have used as entry points.

I can specially see Joseph II, who can be viciously pragmatical in his exploitation of any resources provided, technogical, mystical or other, trying to promote this kind of two-faced plan.

They would do that like they do the permanent rift near CS, station a hoard of troops there and kill anything that steps out the rift. They would be unlikely to invest troops in trans-dimensional exploration/outpost as every thing trans-dimensional is evil by their standards and they lack the tech to open portals to return home.

[SolCannibal]

Well, the CS still has to deal with loads of things on its plate before actually considering a confrontation with Atlantis, truth be told.

There's much land that composed the "Old American Empire" that has not been pacified and sanitized yet, not to mention whichever surprises might come from old Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Greenland & other places also in North America. Central & South America should also bring a bunch of other challenges, even without some serious confrontation with the Splugorth, as very few places fit into the CS' idea of a good, safe place for humanity to prosper healthly again.

That said, i can kind of see some groups in the CS advocating transdimensional exploration and campaigning, not exactly from a expansionist agenda even, but from a "defense of vital space/hit potential invaders first" strategic standpoint. Taking over strategic spots transdimensional intruders might have used as entry points.

I can specially see Joseph II, who can be viciously pragmatical in his exploitation of any resources provided, technogical, mystical or other, trying to promote this kind of two-faced plan.

They would do that like they do the permanent rift near CS, station a hoard of troops there and kill anything that steps out the rift. They would be unlikely to invest troops in trans-dimensional exploration/outpost as every thing trans-dimensional is evil by their standards and they lack the tech to open portals to return home.

At present.
The universe does not exist in stasis.
Experiments may occur and their success or failures may spur one's decision-making in different directions, for good or for ill, who knows, depends on wha side one is in, i guess.

[Blue_Lion]

Well, the CS still has to deal with loads of things on its plate before actually considering a confrontation with Atlantis, truth be told.

There's much land that composed the "Old American Empire" that has not been pacified and sanitized yet, not to mention whichever surprises might come from old Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Greenland & other places also in North America. Central & South America should also bring a bunch of other challenges, even without some serious confrontation with the Splugorth, as very few places fit into the CS' idea of a good, safe place for humanity to prosper healthly again.

That said, i can kind of see some groups in the CS advocating transdimensional exploration and campaigning, not exactly from a expansionist agenda even, but from a "defense of vital space/hit potential invaders first" strategic standpoint. Taking over strategic spots transdimensional intruders might have used as entry points.

I can specially see Joseph II, who can be viciously pragmatical in his exploitation of any resources provided, technogical, mystical or other, trying to promote this kind of two-faced plan.

They would do that like they do the permanent rift near CS, station a hoard of troops there and kill anything that steps out the rift. They would be unlikely to invest troops in trans-dimensional exploration/outpost as every thing trans-dimensional is evil by their standards and they lack the tech to open portals to return home.

At present.
The universe does not exist in stasis.
Experiments may occur and their success or failures may spur one's decision-making in different directions, for good or for ill, who knows, depends on wha side one is in, i guess.

There is no tactical incentive, or tech in the game as written.
When your lands are invaded from multiple fronts it makes no sense to send your troops away to fight on one front.
Experiments would be geared towards closing the rifts not opening them. They just do not have the resources to waste on what would likely be a one way trip if not a suicide mission.

[Zekgravestone]

so i think that maybe he just didn't think anything of Beaumont and houstown being that close

but if it was me, i just put the Fort where Corpus Christi where an actual navel base sits today

[RockJock]

Look at the immediate, or at least short term enemies the CS has to deal with. First the Minion War stuff. If they survive they might be battle hardened, but they will definitely be weakened. The bugs from the Great White North are also a huge, continental problem that will need dealing with. Plus you have the Vamps as well. If given the option the CS would also try to help the NGR with their statue problem. I'm ignoring groups like Lazlo that may or may not be actual "enemies".

Assume for a moment that Atlantis leaves the CS alone, and the CS takes care of all of the big nasties above, somehow absorbs smaller compatible powers like NG/MI/FQ/New Navy(not a complete list, but quick powers they might ally/absorb instead of destroy), and conquers Lone Star they are still far from owning the continent, and making it productive. Groups like the True Federation, or the Soul Worm are not going to easily take out the CS, but who knows what they could unleash. There is also a plausible threat for an Archie/Sleeper/Republican (maybe even Tundra Ranger thrown in there?) to change the trajectory of even a victorious CS. How will the Native Americans and allies(Little Ones, Ondi Thunderbirds, gods, spirits Nunnehi, etc) act if push comes to shove with the CS? The rest of the continent is also a big place with scores of enemies, problems and challenges that have never been mentioned.

Even after all of this you have some major things like whatever is going on in China, the frog entity thing eating Australia, the Lord of the Deep and so on that eventually need to be dealt with by the CS when they reach "super power" status. If all this happens, and the CS unites the old Canada/USA/Mexico territory into something resembling the old power block without Atlantis, or some other interdimensional power getting involved you have multiple continents still on earth to conquer before it makes sense for the CS to go world hopping.

[Library Ogre]

so i think that maybe he just didn't think anything of Beaumont and houstown being that close

but if it was me, i just put the Fort where Corpus Christi where an actual navel base sits today

I find it works a bit better to move it over towards Orange/Port Arthur (actually, the ruins of Deweyville, since Orange and PA are likely under water). It's not THAT much further, so they're still a threat, but they're not right up in Houstown's face.

[RockJock]

I like the idea of moving the base to Corpus, but it causes other problems, like having the Simmons Line being too far away, or at least cutting Houstown off from the Pecos Empire.

Mark's idea of moving Fort Pinnacle a bit East to Orange or Deweyville makes sense. If you move Houstown a bit West, just to say Katy you gain a little bit of space, without a lot of other domino changes.