Understanding Tattooed-Warriors

[Razorwing]

The Secrets of the Atlanteans has shown me some interesting insights into the nature of the various Tattooed Warriors presented in the previous books dealing with Atlantis. I can now admit that I was playing these characters with more than a few assumptions that seem to be wrong, given the new insights that SotA has provided.

Assumption #1- The Chain with a Broken Link tattoo (Supernatural Strength) was pointless. I initially assumed that because this tattoo existed, that Tattooed Warriors didn't have Supernatural Strength as it would make this tattoo redundant. It honestly made sense... given that if T-Warriors did have Supernatural Strength, it would only be useful to those who had 6 or fewer tattoos. This was problematic given that anyone who isn't a T-Warrior would have to pay double the PPE to activate the tattoo... and few non-T-Warriors have enough PPE reserves to do so.

Looking closer at this particular tattoo, I can see now why it would still be useful to a T-Warrior who doesn't need it to achieve Supernatural level of strength... the bonus to the PS may seem insignificant when it comes to increasing the weight they can lift and carry, but it is often enough to push the damage they can do with their attacks to a higher bracket. Combining that with the magical weapons that they possess which (with some of the rules where weapon and strength damage are combined) can allow them to do a surprising amount of damage to the sorts of monsters these warriors were created to fight.

This new insight has made me reevaluate the usefulness of such a tattoo... given that T-Warriors have Supernatural Strength (which isn't explicitly mentioned in many of the T-Warrior O.C.C.s).

Assumption #2- T-Warriors only get MDC from the magic tattoos above 6. When I've created T-Warriors in the past, I assumed that they only get MDC capacity from each tattoo above 7... that the Hit Points and SDC they had before this transformation were more or less lost... and that any increases from Physical Skills to SDC was likewise lost. SotA has shown me that I seem to have been mistaken on that.

On pg 47 of SotA in the section that discusses MDC, it is stated that for those O.C.C.s that receive more than 6 tattoos, the Hit Points and SDC of the character (including the SDC gained from physical skills) are converted to MDC on a point for point basis and the MDC provided by the tattoos above 6 are added to this base. Some T-Warrior O.C.C.s will also receive a bonus to this MDC. Additionally, T-Warriors gain 1d6 MDC per level (most likely representing the increase in their Hit Points). Now, while this may only apply to Atlanteans who use Magic Tattoos, I don't find it all that unreasonable to have it to apply to anyone who is able to make use of this magic... humans, elves and Ogres (Chiang-Ku Dragons are natural MDC beings so they would be the exception in magic rich environments).

This also helps when T-Warriors go to worlds and dimensions where magic levels are lower (non-MDC environments) as it allows an easy way to convert the MDC they have back to Hit Points and SDC. In this case, the MDC they gained from the tattoos above 6 (and any bonus provided by their OCC) is converted into additional SDC. T-Warriors will likely also have a Natural AR in these environments (though this is explained in their respective OCCs and seems to be in the 10-13... unless specified, I would probably go with a Natural AR of 10).

Yet even with these new insights that alter the way I have viewed T-Warriors before, SotA does still leave a few things vague... Like the new Dragon Head tattoos.

Does the Fire Dragon Head Breathing Flame tattoo also include the Immunity to Fire in addition to the Fire attacks this tattoo provides... making it a superior form of the Fire Dragon Head tattoo, or does it just provide the fire attacks and one needs the Fire Dragon Head (without breathing fire) to gain the Fire Immunity power. I am leaning towards the latter, making these two different tattoos that look similar but only provide their specific abilities (in other words, one would need both to get both effects and thus have to activate both to use them, limiting how many other powers they can have active as well). This would also apply to the Ice Dragon Head tattoos.

Now all we need is to have the other T-Warrior OCCS (the Splugorth slave T-Men OCCs) revisited to take these new insights into account... and maybe show some of the Tattoos the Splugorth have created (and maybe some new Power Arrow tattoos).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The Secrets of the Atlanteans has shown me some interesting insights into the nature of the various Tattooed Warriors presented in the previous books dealing with Atlantis. I can now admit that I was playing these characters with more than a few assumptions that seem to be wrong, given the new insights that SotA has provided.

Assumption #1- The Chain with a Broken Link tattoo (Supernatural Strength) was pointless. I initially assumed that because this tattoo existed, that Tattooed Warriors didn't have Supernatural Strength as it would make this tattoo redundant. It honestly made sense... given that if T-Warriors did have Supernatural Strength, it would only be useful to those who had 6 or fewer tattoos.

Its an amazing Tattoo for any practitioner of magic (who can get 6 without messing with their ability to cast spells), particularly one like a Mystic Knight. Even at the double cost. Enemy closes is on the "weak" mage and without having to cast a spell, the mage bats their head off with a haymaker that could crumple balistic armor. Its not as useful for non T-men as some other tatoos, because of the high cost, but it's still quite good.

This was problematic given that anyone who isn't a T-Warrior would have to pay double the PPE to activate the tattoo... and few non-T-Warriors have enough PPE reserves to do so.

Non-TA Tattooed classes do not have Supernatural Strength by default. They never did. This was a feature of -only- the Undead Slayer and the Monster-shaping guys from SA - both of whom are by default True Atlanteans. This isn't an oversight or mistake.

Looking closer at this particular tattoo, I can see now why it would still be useful to a T-Warrior who doesn't need it to achieve Supernatural level of strength... the bonus to the PS may seem insignificant when it comes to increasing the weight they can lift and carry, but it is often enough to push the damage they can do with their attacks to a higher bracket.

It will, in fact, almost ALWAYS push their strength to the next highest category, and so yes, is therefore quite useful even to True Atlantean T-men.

Combining that with the magical weapons that they possess which (with some of the rules where weapon and strength damage are combined)

These rules are super inconsistent though and really, really need to be clarified and updated, IMO.

can allow them to do a surprising amount of damage to the sorts of monsters these warriors were created to fight.

This new insight has made me reevaluate the usefulness of such a tattoo... given that T-Warriors have Supernatural Strength (which isn't explicitly mentioned in many of the T-Warrior O.C.C.s).

If they aren't a True-Atlantean-only Tattooed Man, they explicitly DO NOT get Supernatural Strength.

Assumption #2- T-Warriors only get MDC from the magic tattoos above 6. When I've created T-Warriors in the past, I assumed that they only get MDC capacity from each tattoo above 7... that the Hit Points and SDC they had before this transformation were more or less lost... and that any increases from Physical Skills to SDC was likewise lost. SotA has shown me that I seem to have been mistaken on that.

I dont have that book or have access to it yet, so i cant read the way it is worded, but my guess here is that this is, again, referring to True Atlantean Tatooed Men OCCs, not every T-man. The four T-men that the Splugorth can create dont read this way. (T-man, Maxi Man, T-Monster Man, and T-Archer).

[Razorwing]

The Chain with a Broken Link tattoo is not so amazing to get for a practitioner of magic... as they have a far cheaper means of enhancing their strength to supernatural levels, namely the Superhuman Strength spell.

Remember, outside of Atlantis and those who have met Atlanteans and the Chiang-Ku (both very rare on the planet), almost no one knows that Magic Tattoos even exist... let alone that there is one tattoo that can provide supernatural strength. Even if they do know of these beings, getting this tattoo from them is not going to be easy. The Chiang-Ku and Atlanteans will likely require the mage to prove their worthiness for the tattoo (not likely to sell such tattoos for mere credits) which can take a long time... while the Splugorth are a whole different matter to deal with (assuming they don't decide to enslave the mage in the first place). Assuming that they can get the tattoo from these sources, the mage will have to endure the intense pain of getting the tattoo (even ordinary tattoos can be too painful for some to endure).

In contrast to all of this is the Superhuman Strength spell... which is likely to be far easier to track down and learn (it is only a 5th level spell, so it is likely to be somewhat common for most guilds to provide for a reasonable fee). It also costs a lot less energy for a mage to cast (10 PPE compared to the 60 PPE for the tattoo). Additionally, the spell is likely to increase the mage's strength more significantly than the tattoo... as the spell boosts the target's strength to 30 while the tattoo only boosts it by 6 pts (so unless the mage is rather buff with a PS of 24 or more, the spell will be far more cost effective).

One also has to realize how much of the character's PPE reserve is being used up. For an average 1st level Mage (Line Walker) 60 PPE is bout half of their reserves (assuming an average roll for PPE base and an average PE)... and this is the OCC that starts with one of the highest reserves of PPE... when they have a much less costly alternative? Most mages will avoid direct melee range confrontation because they are often ill suited for such things (most will only have the most basic of combat training, if they have any at all). By the time they are in a situation where they would need such a tattoo, chances are they have already exhausted their reserves to the point where using such a costly magic isn't an option.

So I am afraid I have to call bullocks on the idea that this one tattoo is as amazing for mages as you claim... it is too costly and too difficult for them plausibly get/use when there is a more reasonable and likely option for them.

As for the other T-Men, I have only found one non-Atlantean T-Man given a write-up in the Rift books, specifically Conversion Book 2... the write up for Ares the Renegade on pg 104. While this would suggest that you are right, the write-up for Endiku Longhair on pg 64 fails to mention that this Atlantean Slayer has supernatural levels of strength. Now, since we have write ups for Atlantean T-Men from before and after this book was printed that show that Atlantean Undead Slayers have Supernatural Strength, we can assume that Endiku's lack of such a mention is due to an oversight. Unfortunately, without another non-Atlantean T-Man write-up to compare with, we can not be sure if the write-up for Ares is as things are intended or also an oversight. The mistake made with Endiku in this book makes the book unreliable as source of reference for non-Atlantean T-men without something to compare to.

If you can provide me with another non-Atlantean T-Man write up that shows they don't have Supernatural Strength as a comparison, I will concede the point that only Atlantean T-Men get are transformed into supernatural beings by the tattoos. Until then, I have to assume that because all T-Men become MDC beings through magic, they are all considered supernatural beings.

It doesn't actually state that non-Atlanteans T-men do not get supernatural strength in the T-Men OOC write ups any more than those same original write-ups state that Atlantean T-Men do. The basic T-Man doesn't have any passage that states that they DO NOT get Supernatural Strength... nor is there a passage in the original Undead Slayer OCC write up that explicitly states that they DO get Supernatural Strength. There is one mention in the Undead Slayer OCC that says they are considered Supernatural Beings, but that is not exactly the same as saying they have Supernatural Strength. Some can interpret that as merely meaning that they are treated as supernatural beings in regards to weapons that do increased damage to such beings. While most Supernatural Beings have Supernatural Strength, not all do... so unless it is explicitly stated (as it now is with SotA), it can not actually be inferred that is the intent of such a passage. Likewise, since the only reason that Atlanteans see their strength increased to such levels is by the tattoos, it isn't completely unreasonable to assume that other T-men will receive a similar increase with the tattoos (when they work for a species). If the tattoos change humans, ogres and elves into MDC beings like they do for Atlanteans, then is it not also reasonable to assume that their strength will also be increased?

Since the only source I can find for any non-Atlantean T-man can't be considered 100% reliable (due to the mistake with an Atlantean T-Man) we need another non-Atlantean T-man from an official source to confirm whether non-Atlantean T-Men have Supernatural Strength without using the Chain with a Broken Link tattoo. I have yet to find such a write up (dozens of books with hundreds of pages to look through so it may take some time, provided there even is another non-Atlantean T-man write up).

By the same token, we must also assume that since these Tattoos provide the same benefits to others who can use them as they do for Atlanteans, we must also assume that Tattoo Magic would convert non-Atlanteans into MDC beings in the same way... namely converting their Hit Points and SDC into MDC on a point for point basis and then providing additional MDC per tattoo above 6. Since other magics magics work in the same way regardless of what species is using the magic (whether sorcery, techno-wizardry, Biomancy or whatever) unless specifically stated otherwise. Thus we must assume that Tattoo Magic will work the same way for all species that can use it, at least until it is explicitly said otherwise. Thus, for us to be 100% sure that non-Atlantean T-Men are affected differently by Tattoo Magic than Atlanteans, we would require a revisit and update to the non-Atlantean T-Men presented in both World Book 2 (T-Men, T-Monster Men and Maxi-Men) and World Book 21 (T-Archers).

This has more to do with how Tattoo Magic works than what special bonuses Atlanteans should get for using it. Just as Atlanteans get similar effects with other types of magic that other species do, then Tattoo Magic should provide similar changes to other species that can use it. This has already been shown to be the case in the magic's description. All Magic Tattoos provide a small boost to both PPE and SDC (when bellow 6 tattoos), regardless of whether the one receiving the tattoo is Atlantean or not. Likewise, regardless of what species is using Magic Tattoos, they are transformed into MDC beings when they receive 7+ tattoos (though Atlanteans do seem a little better adapted to the magic since they receive more MDC per tattoo with this transformation). Thus is it not logical to assume that, like the Atlanteans, non-Atlanteans that are transformed into MDC beings will see their Strength transformed as well? Likewise, is it really unreasonable to assume that, like the Atlanteans, Magic Tattoos will convert the Hit Points and SDC of mortals transformed into MDC being into MDC as well? Are these assumptions game-breaking (as in making non-Atlantean T-Men over powered compared to Atlantean T-men)?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The Chain with a Broken Link tattoo is not so amazing to get for a practitioner of magic... as they have a far cheaper means of enhancing their strength to supernatural levels, namely the Superhuman Strength spell.

Remember, outside of Atlantis and those who have met Atlanteans and the Chiang-Ku (both very rare on the planet), almost no one knows that Magic Tattoos even exist... let alone that there is one tattoo that can provide supernatural strength.

The Cyber Knights know. As do the people in the Magic Zone/Federation of Magic. And Lazlo. It's not as secret as you seem to think it is.

Even if they do know of these beings, getting this tattoo from them is not going to be easy. The Chiang-Ku and Atlanteans will likely require the mage to prove their worthiness for the tattoo (not likely to sell such tattoos for mere credits) which can take a long time...

The Nog Henge give them out as a reward to allies. 1 in 200 Cyber Knights has magic tattoos. They aren't common by any means, they arent exactly rare or unknown.

while the Splugorth are a whole different matter to deal with (assuming they don't decide to enslave the mage in the first place). Assuming that they can get the tattoo from these sources, the mage will have to endure the intense pain of getting the tattoo (even ordinary tattoos can be too painful for some to endure).

In contrast to all of this is the Superhuman Strength spell... which is likely to be far easier to track down and learn (it is only a 5th level spell, so it is likely to be somewhat common for most guilds to provide for a reasonable fee). It also costs a lot less energy for a mage to cast (10 PPE compared to the 60 PPE for the tattoo). Additionally, the spell is likely to increase the mage's strength more significantly than the tattoo... as the spell boosts the target's strength to 30 while the tattoo only boosts it by 6 pts (so unless the mage is rather buff with a PS of 24 or more, the spell will be far more cost effective).

You know what you cant do when someone has stuffed a rag in your mouth? Cast a spell. You know what you can do? Activate a tatoo.

You know what you cant do when someone has shackled you with chains? Cast a spell. You know what you can do (provided you had it put somewhere that makes this feasible) - activate a tatoo and break your bonds.

Etc.

One also has to realize how much of the character's PPE reserve is being used up. For an average 1st level Mage (Line Walker) 60 PPE is bout half of their reserves (assuming an average roll for PPE base and an average PE)... and this is the OCC that starts with one of the highest reserves of PPE... when they have a much less costly alternative?

Because there are plenty of situations where not having to cast an actual spell are pereferable to casting a spell. There a lot of situations when casting a spell isn't even possible (running, dodging, any time you would be firing wild, etc) that using a tattoo is possible.

Most mages will avoid direct melee range confrontation because they are often ill suited for such things (most will only have the most basic of combat training, if they have any at all).

I actually did a whole thread about this particular myth. Almost all the mage classes get H2H basic at the very least. The few that dont are the ones that often dont ever need to actually see combat (in the setting, not as PCs necessarily) - Techno Wizards, Necromancers, and Mystics. All of whom can take H2H basic as a secondary skill. They also all get WPs. They aren't any better or worse in melee than most anyone else, other than the physical-combat outliers in Men at Arms (like juicers).

By the time they are in a situation where they would need such a tattoo, chances are they have already exhausted their reserves to the point where using such a costly magic isn't an option.

You're building up very specific scenarios that you have no way of predicting. That's a bad foundation for an argument. And... at first level, they aren't likely to have this tattoo anyway.

So I am afraid I have to call bullocks on the idea that this one tattoo is as amazing for mages as you claim... it is too costly and too difficult for them plausibly get/use when there is a more reasonable and likely option for them.

Its availability isn't the issue. Its wether or not the tattoo is useful to them as a non-T-man. The answer is "yes, highly".

As for the other T-Men, I have only found one non-Atlantean T-Man given a write-up in the Rift books, specifically Conversion Book 2... the write up for Ares the Renegade on pg 104. While this would suggest that you are right, the write-up for Endiku Longhair on pg 64 fails to mention that this Atlantean Slayer has supernatural levels of strength. Now, since we have write ups for Atlantean T-Men from before and after this book was printed that show that Atlantean Undead Slayers have Supernatural Strength, we can assume that Endiku's lack of such a mention is due to an oversight. Unfortunately, without another non-Atlantean T-Man write-up to compare with, we can not be sure if the write-up for Ares is as things are intended or also an oversight. The mistake made with Endiku in this book makes the book unreliable as source of reference for non-Atlantean T-men without something to compare to.

NPC writeups are largely worthless, as NPCs do not have to, and often explicitly do not follow the rules PCs have to follow.

If you can provide me with another non-Atlantean T-Man write up that shows they don't have Supernatural Strength as a comparison, I will concede the point that only Atlantean T-Men get are transformed into supernatural beings by the tattoos. Until then, I have to assume that because all T-Men become MDC beings through magic, they are all considered supernatural beings.

That's not how this works. There are plenty of MDC beings that are not supernatural beings. There are plenty of creatures of magic that are not inherently supernatural beings (and many dont even have supernatural strength). Unless the rules SAY they are supernatural beings, they are not.

It doesn't actually state that non-Atlanteans T-men do not get supernatural strength in the T-Men OOC write ups

Correct. Because that isn't how rules work. The rules state what you DO get, not what you DONT get.

any more than those same original write-ups state that Atlantean T-Men do.

Orly?

Atlantis Page 97 (Undead Slayers) - power 12 - "Undead Slayers are considered to be Supernatural Beings".
South America Page 100 (Monster Hunters) - power 12 - "Monster Hunters are considered to be Supernatural Beings".

Supernatural beings have supernatural attributes. There are no canon examples of Supernatural beings that do not possess supernatural attributes.

Those are (prior to Secrets) the only two Atlantean T-men; they are explicitly called out as being supernatural beings.

The basic T-Man doesn't have any passage that states that they DO NOT get Supernatural Strength... nor is there a passage in the original Undead Slayer OCC write up that explicitly states that they DO get Supernatural Strength. There is one mention in the Undead Slayer OCC that says they are considered Supernatural Beings, but that is not exactly the same as saying they have Supernatural Strength.

It is actually exactly that.

Some can interpret that as merely meaning that they are treated as supernatural beings in regards to weapons that do increased damage to such beings. While most Supernatural Beings have Supernatural Strength, not all do...

This came up recently as well. Every being called out as a supernatural being has supernatural strength. There are no exceptions i can find. There are some creatures of magic that do not, however. But those are creatures of magic. They aren't the same thing.

so unless it is explicitly stated (as it now is with SotA), it can not actually be inferred that is the intent of such a passage.

Its not an inference. Supernatural beings have supernatural attributes. Full stop.

Likewise, since the only reason that Atlanteans see their strength increased to such levels is by the tattoos, it isn't completely unreasonable to assume that other T-men will receive a similar increase with the tattoos (when they work for a species). If the tattoos change humans, ogres and elves into MDC beings like they do for Atlanteans, then is it not also reasonable to assume that their strength will also be increased?

No, because they aren't Altanteans, who by this time are inherently special and different than those other races. They have higher PPE reserves, live centuries, etc. The Tattoos work differently on them.

Since the only source I can find for any non-Atlantean T-man can't be considered 100% reliable (due to the mistake with an Atlantean T-Man) we need another non-Atlantean T-man from an official source to confirm whether non-Atlantean T-Men have Supernatural Strength without using the Chain with a Broken Link tattoo. I have yet to find such a write up (dozens of books with hundreds of pages to look through so it may take some time, provided there even is another non-Atlantean T-man write up).

By the same token, we must also assume that since these Tattoos provide the same benefits to others who can use them as they do for Atlanteans, we must also assume that Tattoo Magic would convert non-Atlanteans into MDC beings in the same way... namely converting their Hit Points and SDC into MDC on a point for point basis and then providing additional MDC per tattoo above 6. Since other magics magics work in the same way regardless of what species is using the magic (whether sorcery, techno-wizardry, Biomancy or whatever) unless specifically stated otherwise. Thus we must assume that Tattoo Magic will work the same way for all species that can use it, at least until it is explicitly said otherwise. Thus, for us to be 100% sure that non-Atlantean T-Men are affected differently by Tattoo Magic than Atlanteans, we would require a revisit and update to the non-Atlantean T-Men presented in both World Book 2 (T-Men, T-Monster Men and Maxi-Men) and World Book 21 (T-Archers).

This has more to do with how Tattoo Magic works than what special bonuses Atlanteans should get for using it. Just as Atlanteans get similar effects with other types of magic that other species do, then Tattoo Magic should provide similar changes to other species that can use it. This has already been shown to be the case in the magic's description. All Magic Tattoos provide a small boost to both PPE and SDC (when bellow 6 tattoos), regardless of whether the one receiving the tattoo is Atlantean or not. Likewise, regardless of what species is using Magic Tattoos, they are transformed into MDC beings when they receive 7+ tattoos (though Atlanteans do seem a little better adapted to the magic since they receive more MDC per tattoo with this transformation). Thus is it not logical to assume that, like the Atlanteans, non-Atlanteans that are transformed into MDC beings will see their Strength transformed as well? Likewise, is it really unreasonable to assume that, like the Atlanteans, Magic Tattoos will convert the Hit Points and SDC of mortals transformed into MDC being into MDC as well? Are these assumptions game-breaking (as in making non-Atlantean T-Men over powered compared to Atlantean T-men)?

this entire above segment is based on the flawed assumption that Tattoo Magic doesn't work better/different for Atlanteans, when the actual evidence we have is that it clearly does.

So.. yeah.

[kaid]

The Secrets of the Atlanteans has shown me some interesting insights into the nature of the various Tattooed Warriors presented in the previous books dealing with Atlantis. I can now admit that I was playing these characters with more than a few assumptions that seem to be wrong, given the new insights that SotA has provided.

Assumption #1- The Chain with a Broken Link tattoo (Supernatural Strength) was pointless. I initially assumed that because this tattoo existed, that Tattooed Warriors didn't have Supernatural Strength as it would make this tattoo redundant. It honestly made sense... given that if T-Warriors did have Supernatural Strength, it would only be useful to those who had 6 or fewer tattoos.

Its an amazing Tattoo for any practitioner of magic (who can get 6 without messing with their ability to cast spells), particularly one like a Mystic Knight. Even at the double cost. Enemy closes is on the "weak" mage and without having to cast a spell, the mage bats their head off with a haymaker that could crumple balistic armor. Its not as useful for non T-men as some other tatoos, because of the high cost, but it's still quite good.

This was problematic given that anyone who isn't a T-Warrior would have to pay double the PPE to activate the tattoo... and few non-T-Warriors have enough PPE reserves to do so.

Non-TA Tattooed classes do not have Supernatural Strength by default. They never did. This was a feature of -only- the Undead Slayer and the Monster-shaping guys from SA - both of whom are by default True Atlanteans. This isn't an oversight or mistake.

Looking closer at this particular tattoo, I can see now why it would still be useful to a T-Warrior who doesn't need it to achieve Supernatural level of strength... the bonus to the PS may seem insignificant when it comes to increasing the weight they can lift and carry, but it is often enough to push the damage they can do with their attacks to a higher bracket.

It will, in fact, almost ALWAYS push their strength to the next highest category, and so yes, is therefore quite useful even to True Atlantean T-men.

Combining that with the magical weapons that they possess which (with some of the rules where weapon and strength damage are combined)

These rules are super inconsistent though and really, really need to be clarified and updated, IMO.

can allow them to do a surprising amount of damage to the sorts of monsters these warriors were created to fight.

This new insight has made me reevaluate the usefulness of such a tattoo... given that T-Warriors have Supernatural Strength (which isn't explicitly mentioned in many of the T-Warrior O.C.C.s).

If they aren't a True-Atlantean-only Tattooed Man, they explicitly DO NOT get Supernatural Strength.

Assumption #2- T-Warriors only get MDC from the magic tattoos above 6. When I've created T-Warriors in the past, I assumed that they only get MDC capacity from each tattoo above 7... that the Hit Points and SDC they had before this transformation were more or less lost... and that any increases from Physical Skills to SDC was likewise lost. SotA has shown me that I seem to have been mistaken on that.

I dont have that book or have access to it yet, so i cant read the way it is worded, but my guess here is that this is, again, referring to True Atlantean Tatooed Men OCCs, not every T-man. The four T-men that the Splugorth can create dont read this way. (T-man, Maxi Man, T-Monster Man, and T-Archer).

I second the clarifying the strength adding to weapon damage. In some areas it looks like your full punch damage gets added to the weapon damage and others it seems like they don't count that. Like the bone jaguars in the vampire book most of their magic weapons they make don't make any sense if your punch damage is not included as many of them do less than their innate claws would do.

[Shark_Force]

ah, crap... you're seriously going to make me dig through the conversion book AGAIN to find examples of explicitly supernatural beings (described as supernatural beings, not as creatures of magic or magical creatures or anything else like that) which very obviously have non-supernatural strength (i'm only finding two for you this time around from my memory, after that, you can do your own homework, and do a better job of it next time. there are, however, a few others... and a few more that don't mention any indication of supernatural strength at all and certainly nothing in their stat block remotely implies that they have it).

supernatural being does not mean supernatural strength, any more than the reverse of that.

so here's your examples:

1) eye killers. explicitly supernatural, and their only listed means of dealing damage physically is a bite for 1d4 SDC. note that the absolute minimum damage option from supernatural strength (less than 15) would give them 4d6 regular damage, and mega-damage on a power punch. eye killers quite clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are supernatural beings.

2) tomb worms. as a worm of taut, they can be summoned with a summon lesser beings spell (which only works on supernatural beings). again, they have listed damage, and it far below what even the absolute weakest supernatural PS possible can give, although they do retain the ability to power strike for mega-damage (but less than even the weakest supernatural PS grants and costing 4 attacks instead of just 2). once again, they clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are explicitly supernatural beings.

now go do your own research, and do it properly next time. i'm sick of needing to go dig through half my library just because someone else is unwilling to be thorough and just makes a blanket claim supported by having not found any of the examples that are present. if you're going to claim that no creatures exhibit a trait, then you need to have actually checked all creatures. there are dozens that make absolutely no mention of supernatural strength and have damage values that don't fit the table (as in, their damage is done by natural weapon, not by supernatural PS) which muddies the waters, and there are examples that very clearly do not have even a single point of supernatural strength because they are below what a supernatural PS of 1 would give them. there is no general rule that all supernatural beings have supernatural strength either, so there is nothing to rely on there either. supernatural beings *often* have supernatural attributes, but it isn't a requirement. supernatural PE (and even PB) is a thing, and many supernatural beings don't have that either.

if the T-Man and Maxi-Man and T-Monster Man and T-Archer (or whatever it's called, don't own that book) don't say they get supernatural strength, they don't get it. the fact that the true atlantean OCCs get it without mentioning it is an exception, not a rule.

(and iirc you don't get tattoos on your hands, so i don't know where you think a tied-up mage is going to be able to reliably touch for a tattoo use, nor do i understand why we should assume that whoever has captured and tied up the mage is going to leave them in a position where there hands can be used for *anything* at all, and i especially don't know why you think that an ability which is massively worse in almost every way imaginable would be redeemed and then some by a single ultra-rare scenario)

oh, and most of those situations described where a mage "can't cast spells"? the ones like where they're dodging, or get hit, etc? those are situations where a mage can't cast spells above level 5. not situations where the mage can't cast spells at all.

(while gagged, sure, but who's going to gag a mage without tying them up too? what level of incompetence are we assuming on the part of their enemies?)

[Daniel Stoker]

You know what you cant do when someone has stuffed a rag in your mouth? Cast a spell. You know what you can do? Activate a tatoo.

You know what you cant do when someone has shackled you with chains? Cast a spell. You know what you can do (provided you had it put somewhere that makes this feasible) - activate a tatoo and break your bonds.

Etc.

Well the gag would be an issue, but other then that casting Escape would make more sense and it only costs 8 PPE. But otherwise yeah those are good points.


Daniel Stoker

[Mlp7029]

ah, crap... you're seriously going to make me dig through the conversion book AGAIN to find examples of explicitly supernatural beings (described as supernatural beings, not as creatures of magic or magical creatures or anything else like that) which very obviously have non-supernatural strength (i'm only finding two for you this time around from my memory, after that, you can do your own homework, and do a better job of it next time. there are, however, a few others... and a few more that don't mention any indication of supernatural strength at all and certainly nothing in their stat block remotely implies that they have it).

supernatural being does not mean supernatural strength, any more than the reverse of that.

so here's your examples:

1) eye killers. explicitly supernatural, and their only listed means of dealing damage physically is a bite for 1d4 SDC. note that the absolute minimum damage option from supernatural strength (less than 15) would give them 4d6 regular damage, and mega-damage on a power punch. eye killers quite clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are supernatural beings.

2) tomb worms. as a worm of taut, they can be summoned with a summon lesser beings spell (which only works on supernatural beings). again, they have listed damage, and it far below what even the absolute weakest supernatural PS possible can give, although they do retain the ability to power strike for mega-damage (but less than even the weakest supernatural PS grants and costing 4 attacks instead of just 2). once again, they clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are explicitly supernatural beings.

now go do your own research, and do it properly next time. i'm sick of needing to go dig through half my library just because someone else is unwilling to be thorough and just makes a blanket claim supported by having not found any of the examples that are present. if you're going to claim that no creatures exhibit a trait, then you need to have actually checked all creatures. there are dozens that make absolutely no mention of supernatural strength and have damage values that don't fit the table (as in, their damage is done by natural weapon, not by supernatural PS) which muddies the waters, and there are examples that very clearly do not have even a single point of supernatural strength because they are below what a supernatural PS of 1 would give them. there is no general rule that all supernatural beings have supernatural strength either, so there is nothing to rely on there either. supernatural beings *often* have supernatural attributes, but it isn't a requirement. supernatural PE (and even PB) is a thing, and many supernatural beings don't have that either.

if the T-Man and Maxi-Man and T-Monster Man and T-Archer (or whatever it's called, don't own that book) don't say they get supernatural strength, they don't get it. the fact that the true atlantean OCCs get it without mentioning it is an exception, not a rule.

(and iirc you don't get tattoos on your hands, so i don't know where you think a tied-up mage is going to be able to reliably touch for a tattoo use, nor do i understand why we should assume that whoever has captured and tied up the mage is going to leave them in a position where there hands can be used for *anything* at all, and i especially don't know why you think that an ability which is massively worse in almost every way imaginable would be redeemed and then some by a single ultra-rare scenario)

oh, and most of those situations described where a mage "can't cast spells"? the ones like where they're dodging, or get hit, etc? those are situations where a mage can't cast spells above level 5. not situations where the mage can't cast spells at all.

(while gagged, sure, but who's going to gag a mage without tying them up too? what level of incompetence are we assuming on the part of their enemies?)

I am curious what do you think the Undead Slayer being a supernatural being grants the Undead Slayer if it does not grant them supernatural attributes? I cannot come up with anything and that is the reason I give Undead Slayers Supernatural Strength.

[Shark_Force]

I am curious what do you think the Undead Slayer being a supernatural being grants the Undead Slayer if it does not grant them supernatural attributes? I cannot come up with anything and that is the reason I give Undead Slayers Supernatural Strength.

don't know, don't care. palladium wouldn't know what consistency looks like if it came up and bit them in the face, so there may not even be any reason at all for the undead slayer NPCs they've published to have supernatural PS.

but i'm not here to discuss whether undead slayers should or should not be supernatural beings, or what exactly they gain from becoming supernatural beings, or indeed whether they should or should not have supernatural PS, nor do i particularly care about those subjects.

i'm simply here to make the point that being a supernatural being does not mean you have supernatural PS (or PE or PB - not that the exact effects of supernatural PB are *ever* explained, and it's only used once, for aphrodite's stat block i believe), nor does having supernatural PS make you a supernatural being. or even magical at all, for that matter (though nonmagical supernatural PS scores are rare, they do exist).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

ah, crap... you're seriously going to make me dig through the conversion book AGAIN to find examples of explicitly supernatural beings (described as supernatural beings, not as creatures of magic or magical creatures or anything else like that) which very obviously have non-supernatural strength (i'm only finding two for you this time around from my memory, after that, you can do your own homework, and do a better job of it next time. there are, however, a few others... and a few more that don't mention any indication of supernatural strength at all and certainly nothing in their stat block remotely implies that they have it).

Since i utterly debunked every single one you posted last time, you can keep trying. You're still wrong.

supernatural being does not mean supernatural strength, any more than the reverse of that.

so here's your examples:

1) eye killers. explicitly supernatural, and their only listed means of dealing damage physically is a bite for 1d4 SDC. note that the absolute minimum damage option from supernatural strength (less than 15) would give them 4d6 regular damage, and mega-damage on a power punch. eye killers quite clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are supernatural beings.

Again, for the last damn time, NPCs OFTEN have abilities that dont match with the specific rules. There are half a dozen examples (that you tried to use in your last failure of an argument) of creatures that are explicitly supernatural, have supernatural PS, and inflict less or more than what their PS would normally allow. (Scarecrow is a good example) This is an example of a specific rule overwriting a general rule. Just because their damage is specifically limited does not mean they dont have supernatural attributes.

2) tomb worms. as a worm of taut, they can be summoned with a summon lesser beings spell (which only works on supernatural beings). again, they have listed damage, and it far below what even the absolute weakest supernatural PS possible can give, although they do retain the ability to power strike for mega-damage (but less than even the weakest supernatural PS grants and costing 4 attacks instead of just 2). once again, they clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are explicitly supernatural beings.

Except they clearly are supernatural beings. And have supernatural PS. And inflict less damage than they should.

I take it you have a point.

How many creatures would you like me to list that have a supernatural PS and have damages listed that dont match that PS or PS range? I can think of about a dozen without even looking.

now go do your own research, and do it properly next time. i'm sick of needing to go dig through half my library just because someone else is unwilling to be thorough and just makes a blanket claim supported by having not found any of the examples that are present.

Your revisionist history is amusing as all hell, and wrong. I literally debunked every example you posted last time this came up.

if you're going to claim that no creatures exhibit a trait, then you need to have actually checked all creatures. there are dozens that make absolutely no mention of supernatural strength and have damage values that don't fit the table (as in, their damage is done by natural weapon, not by supernatural PS) which muddies the waters, and there are examples that very clearly do not have even a single point of supernatural strength because they are below what a supernatural PS of 1 would give them.

Except that is irrelevant. The creatures dont have to match the chart on damage

there is no general rule that all supernatural beings have supernatural strength either, so there is nothing to rely on there either. supernatural beings *often* have supernatural attributes, but it isn't a requirement. supernatural PE (and even PB) is a thing, and many supernatural beings don't have that either.

if the T-Man and Maxi-Man and T-Monster Man and T-Archer (or whatever it's called, don't own that book) don't say they get supernatural strength, they don't get it. the fact that the true atlantean OCCs get it without mentioning it is an exception, not a rule.

(and iirc you don't get tattoos on your hands,

You dont recall correctly. Seems to be common for you. However, they dont often get them there (i think that is mentioned) and its not the best place anyway, as it can often be hard to reach the back of your hand. top and bottom of wrists is better.

so i don't know where you think a tied-up mage is going to be able to reliably touch for a tattoo use,

The wrists. Which is why the Atlanteans have the Marks there. /asciipicardfacepalm.

nor do i understand why we should assume that whoever has captured and tied up the mage is going to leave them in a position where there hands can be used for *anything* at all,

Because unless they are shackling you bent over backwards wrist-to-ankles, if your hands are together (handcuffs, ties, etc), you can touch your wrists or the backs of your hands together fairly easily.

and i especially don't know why you think that an ability which is massively worse in almost every way imaginable would be redeemed and then some by a single ultra-rare scenario)

Because being unable to cast isn't that rare. It's the same exact thing that makes TW items so powerful. You can just activate them without having to cast. And in situations when you CANT cast.

oh, and most of those situations described where a mage "can't cast spells"? the ones like where they're dodging, or get hit, etc? those are situations where a mage can't cast spells above level 5. not situations where the mage can't cast spells at all.

And you're wrong again. You cant cast while distracted. Im pretty sure it was Eli who pointed it out. Any time you would be firing wild, you can't cast, because you're distracted. You cant cast right after you dodge. You cant cast while running. Its hugely limiting to spellcasters and is pretty much ignore by everyone ive ever met, just like 90% of the situations that RAW you would have to fire wild. (In most combats, if you dont get initiative, you would NEVER be allowed to fire anything BUT wild).

(while gagged, sure, but who's going to gag a mage without tying them up too? what level of incompetence are we assuming on the part of their enemies?)

Someone who has a piece of rag to gag you with you and doesn't have handcuffs? Someone who has your air cut off in a choke hold but doesn't have your arms pinned?

Enjoy going back on ignore.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I second the clarifying the strength adding to weapon damage. In some areas it looks like your full punch damage gets added to the weapon damage and others it seems like they don't count that. Like the bone jaguars in the vampire book most of their magic weapons they make don't make any sense if your punch damage is not included as many of them do less than their innate claws would do.

Yeah, its one of the most inconsistent things in the books.

In my (slow) ongoing re-write, im massively lowering supernatural "punch" damage, but making it so that the PS damage bonus applies to supernatural physical attacks and adds to MDC weapon damage, to make it more consistent.

[eliakon]

Just a point here for the whole "damage table" thing...
Please recall that the damage tables are NOT the universal table for everything.
They are explicitly the table for "what the damage value for your PS is if there is no other value in use"
So if you have a different value given... guess what? That just means you use that not the table.

I would also point out that under SNPS it mentions that you use either the damage from your weapon OR your PS which ever is greater.
So those Jaguars still have reasons to use weapons... they can use their higher PS damage value, but still get the strike bonuses from the weapon, add 1d6 to swords from fencing, and not have to touch a target themselves (useful if your worried about stuff like silver spikes, or poison, or contact spells or someone countering with an arm hold or the like)

[eliakon]

The Chain with a Broken Link tattoo is not so amazing to get for a practitioner of magic... as they have a far cheaper means of enhancing their strength to supernatural levels, namely the Superhuman Strength spell.

Remember, outside of Atlantis and those who have met Atlanteans and the Chiang-Ku (both very rare on the planet), almost no one knows that Magic Tattoos even exist... let alone that there is one tattoo that can provide supernatural strength.

The Cyber Knights know. As do the people in the Magic Zone/Federation of Magic. And Lazlo. It's not as secret as you seem to think it is.

Even if they do know of these beings, getting this tattoo from them is not going to be easy. The Chiang-Ku and Atlanteans will likely require the mage to prove their worthiness for the tattoo (not likely to sell such tattoos for mere credits) which can take a long time...

The Nog Henge give them out as a reward to allies. 1 in 200 Cyber Knights has magic tattoos. They aren't common by any means, they arent exactly rare or unknown.

I would like to point out that there is an entire collage course on this at the Dewomer acadamy, taught anually.
It is well attended as it is required for anyone who wants to buy a magic tattoo from the shop that sells them comercially in town.
I am under the impression that there was a similar shop in Tolkeen as well, and possibly other places.
Add in just how ludicrously common True Atlantians have become (Hello Arzno!)
And Tattoo Magic is not secret at ALL. Heck even the basic Lore: Magic skill will tell you about Tattoo Magic...

[Shark_Force]

ah, crap... you're seriously going to make me dig through the conversion book AGAIN to find examples of explicitly supernatural beings (described as supernatural beings, not as creatures of magic or magical creatures or anything else like that) which very obviously have non-supernatural strength (i'm only finding two for you this time around from my memory, after that, you can do your own homework, and do a better job of it next time. there are, however, a few others... and a few more that don't mention any indication of supernatural strength at all and certainly nothing in their stat block remotely implies that they have it).

Since i utterly debunked every single one you posted last time, you can keep trying. You're still wrong.

supernatural being does not mean supernatural strength, any more than the reverse of that.

so here's your examples:

1) eye killers. explicitly supernatural, and their only listed means of dealing damage physically is a bite for 1d4 SDC. note that the absolute minimum damage option from supernatural strength (less than 15) would give them 4d6 regular damage, and mega-damage on a power punch. eye killers quite clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are supernatural beings.

Again, for the last damn time, NPCs OFTEN have abilities that dont match with the specific rules. There are half a dozen examples (that you tried to use in your last failure of an argument) of creatures that are explicitly supernatural, have supernatural PS, and inflict less or more than what their PS would normally allow. (Scarecrow is a good example) This is an example of a specific rule overwriting a general rule. Just because their damage is specifically limited does not mean they dont have supernatural attributes.

2) tomb worms. as a worm of taut, they can be summoned with a summon lesser beings spell (which only works on supernatural beings). again, they have listed damage, and it far below what even the absolute weakest supernatural PS possible can give, although they do retain the ability to power strike for mega-damage (but less than even the weakest supernatural PS grants and costing 4 attacks instead of just 2). once again, they clearly do not have supernatural PS, and yet are explicitly supernatural beings.

Except they clearly are supernatural beings. And have supernatural PS. And inflict less damage than they should.

I take it you have a point.

How many creatures would you like me to list that have a supernatural PS and have damages listed that dont match that PS or PS range? I can think of about a dozen without even looking.

now go do your own research, and do it properly next time. i'm sick of needing to go dig through half my library just because someone else is unwilling to be thorough and just makes a blanket claim supported by having not found any of the examples that are present.

Your revisionist history is amusing as all hell, and wrong. I literally debunked every example you posted last time this came up.

if you're going to claim that no creatures exhibit a trait, then you need to have actually checked all creatures. there are dozens that make absolutely no mention of supernatural strength and have damage values that don't fit the table (as in, their damage is done by natural weapon, not by supernatural PS) which muddies the waters, and there are examples that very clearly do not have even a single point of supernatural strength because they are below what a supernatural PS of 1 would give them.

Except that is irrelevant. The creatures dont have to match the chart on damage

there is no general rule that all supernatural beings have supernatural strength either, so there is nothing to rely on there either. supernatural beings *often* have supernatural attributes, but it isn't a requirement. supernatural PE (and even PB) is a thing, and many supernatural beings don't have that either.

if the T-Man and Maxi-Man and T-Monster Man and T-Archer (or whatever it's called, don't own that book) don't say they get supernatural strength, they don't get it. the fact that the true atlantean OCCs get it without mentioning it is an exception, not a rule.

(and iirc you don't get tattoos on your hands,

You dont recall correctly. Seems to be common for you. However, they dont often get them there (i think that is mentioned) and its not the best place anyway, as it can often be hard to reach the back of your hand. top and bottom of wrists is better.

so i don't know where you think a tied-up mage is going to be able to reliably touch for a tattoo use,

The wrists. Which is why the Atlanteans have the Marks there. /asciipicardfacepalm.

nor do i understand why we should assume that whoever has captured and tied up the mage is going to leave them in a position where there hands can be used for *anything* at all,

Because unless they are shackling you bent over backwards wrist-to-ankles, if your hands are together (handcuffs, ties, etc), you can touch your wrists or the backs of your hands together fairly easily.

and i especially don't know why you think that an ability which is massively worse in almost every way imaginable would be redeemed and then some by a single ultra-rare scenario)

Because being unable to cast isn't that rare. It's the same exact thing that makes TW items so powerful. You can just activate them without having to cast. And in situations when you CANT cast.

oh, and most of those situations described where a mage "can't cast spells"? the ones like where they're dodging, or get hit, etc? those are situations where a mage can't cast spells above level 5. not situations where the mage can't cast spells at all.

And you're wrong again. You cant cast while distracted. Im pretty sure it was Eli who pointed it out. Any time you would be firing wild, you can't cast, because you're distracted. You cant cast right after you dodge. You cant cast while running. Its hugely limiting to spellcasters and is pretty much ignore by everyone ive ever met, just like 90% of the situations that RAW you would have to fire wild. (In most combats, if you dont get initiative, you would NEVER be allowed to fire anything BUT wild).

(while gagged, sure, but who's going to gag a mage without tying them up too? what level of incompetence are we assuming on the part of their enemies?)

Someone who has a piece of rag to gag you with you and doesn't have handcuffs? Someone who has your air cut off in a choke hold but doesn't have your arms pinned?

Enjoy going back on ignore.

based on what evidence do you say those creatures have supernatural PS? is it the place where it does not say they do in their monster entry, or perhaps the place where it never once states that supernatural beings all have supernatural attributes in any of the books? if supernatural strength gives you a certain damage value *as a base* (as per RUE 285), and you don't have the option to do that damage, you don't have supernatural strength. you may have damage from your supernatural claws or your supernatural bite, but you do not have supernatural strength, because that is what supernatural strength does.

your base assumption that supernatural beings all have supernatural strength has no support. there is no general rule. if the rules say they have supernatural PS, they do. if it says they don't, they don't. if it doesn't specify, it could go either way, and the evidence clearly shows that those monsters do not. saying "i debunked everything" is not the same thing as having actually done it.

as to preventing casting, no, being distracted prevents you from casting high level spells. if you actually read the rules for it in "magic combat" in RUE 189 you would find that it REPEATEDLY talks about mid and high level spells being restricted, and explicitly says that you 100% for sure can cast level 1-5 spells no problem. but, since i feel like actually providing rules instead of just making declarations as if i am the voice of god, here are some examples of exactly what i've just said:

"... mid- and high-level spells ... will require the character to take a step back from the action to use his magic..."
"Furthermore, magic has the disadvantage of requiring concentration and speaking, two things you can't do while under attack! So unless the spell being cast is a level 1-5 invocation that can be popped off in three or four seconds, the action of parrying, dodging or striking back will break the spell invocation..."
"if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e. his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity), even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action." (italics from the original text).

all per RUE 189-190.

so, where's your rule? "nope, you're wrong" is not a counter-argument, provide some actual evidence. do real debunking, not just vague claims that you're correct backed by nothing more than your own nebulous authority.

being unable to cast any of your spells is rare at best. being limited in which spells you can cast? sure, that's pretty common. but hey, since supernatural strength is a level 5 spell, it is not one of the spells that is limited if you're distracted. it is instead one of the spells where that enhanced level of concentration is not required.

as to being gagged with a rag, hey guess what, you can be tied up with rags too. and once someone figures out that you are always armed to the point where a few small gestures and muttered words from you can literally rip open a portal to hell or incinerate a small building, i'm not at all certain why they'd be stupid enough to do a half-assed job of tying you up, any more than i would expect someone to do a half-assed job of restraining a cyborg that has somehow been temporarily incapacitated. i wouldn't even count on being conscious at all, let alone having enough freedom of movement to touch various locations on your body, because if you can reach your wrists, you can screw around with your bindings.

if you're able to cast spells, i wouldn't count on being captured by anyone who isn't prepared to do a good job of it. it just isn't a reasonable risk to take. most of the people who are stupid enough to do it are already dead by other causes, because rifts earth is not the kind of place that tends to reward taking stupid risks with survival.

so again, we're looking at a rather significant investment in a variety of ways for something that is rather unlikely to come up. now, something like a simple or flaming weapon (dagger)? substantially lower investment cost, similar value if you're captured and poorly restrained; you can free yourself just as effectively. i'm not sure i would consider it to have particularly great value either, but if you're going to get a last-ditch option for escaping restraints, you should go for one that you're actually likely to have the PPE to use after losing a fight, and that won't blow most of your PPE that you're going to want to use for your escape attempt.

something like a concealed TW device (or even a TW cybernetic implant for the few OCCs that use them) that basically gives the effect of the escape spell would of course be quite useful as well, and again, should be a lower investment cost.

[Axelmania]

Broken chain was a lot more useful for mages back when spells took longer to cast since activating tats could be done faster.

[eliakon]

I would like to point out that for virtually every mage in existence simply being gagged is all that is needed.
It is not 'half assed' in any way, shape or form as gagging will 100% stop spell casting for virtually every mage.

Now if someone makes their Lore: Magic roll, they might recognize those tattoos as being magical. But I would like to point out that not everyone in the universe is an expert in everything.
That is why lore skills exist.
Now sure... people who are anti-magical specialists? They might not need to roll.
But for the 99.999% of the rest of the universe? Make a skill check.

Put another way
Not everyone is James Bond or Sherlock Holmes.


Now if there is some reason to assume that everyone in the universe routinely puts everyone in full body locks with finger binds and body shackles and what not... then maybe.
But otherwise, there is no in universe reason assume that the normal "gag the mage and put people in handcuffs/shackles" is not... well the norm.
Considering that those cuffs and shackles are the restraints of choice for every NPC faction, every law force, every slaver... it seems specious to argue that they are actually NOT what is used.

[Shark_Force]

I would like to point out that for virtually every mage in existence simply being gagged is all that is needed.
It is not 'half assed' in any way, shape or form as gagging will 100% stop spell casting for virtually every mage.

Now if someone makes their Lore: Magic roll, they might recognize those tattoos as being magical. But I would like to point out that not everyone in the universe is an expert in everything.
That is why lore skills exist.
Now sure... people who are anti-magical specialists? They might not need to roll.
But for the 99.999% of the rest of the universe? Make a skill check.

Put another way
Not everyone is James Bond or Sherlock Holmes.


Now if there is some reason to assume that everyone in the universe routinely puts everyone in full body locks with finger binds and body shackles and what not... then maybe.
But otherwise, there is no in universe reason assume that the normal "gag the mage and put people in handcuffs/shackles" is not... well the norm.
Considering that those cuffs and shackles are the restraints of choice for every NPC faction, every law force, every slaver... it seems specious to argue that they are actually NOT what is used.

1) binding their hands works too, plus...
2) not binding their hands means they can just remove the gag, and binding them poorly means they can attempt to get out... and unlike most other enemies, once they get out they have pretty much their entire arsenal with them.
3) less knowledge leads to *more* extreme measures being taken, not less. try this with your players some time. when they defeat a mage, give them a reason to capture that mage, and don't give them a straight answer whether or not they're going to be able to prevent spellcasting with (insert plan here), and see if they think "well, we'll just go with the minimum and hope that works".

frankly, you're more likely to wind up with "cut off all their fingers and consider magically regrowing them later" than you are "eh, we'll just handcuff this guy and hope it'll be fine".

[eliakon]

I would like to point out that for virtually every mage in existence simply being gagged is all that is needed.
It is not 'half assed' in any way, shape or form as gagging will 100% stop spell casting for virtually every mage.

Now if someone makes their Lore: Magic roll, they might recognize those tattoos as being magical. But I would like to point out that not everyone in the universe is an expert in everything.
That is why lore skills exist.
Now sure... people who are anti-magical specialists? They might not need to roll.
But for the 99.999% of the rest of the universe? Make a skill check.

Put another way
Not everyone is James Bond or Sherlock Holmes.


Now if there is some reason to assume that everyone in the universe routinely puts everyone in full body locks with finger binds and body shackles and what not... then maybe.
But otherwise, there is no in universe reason assume that the normal "gag the mage and put people in handcuffs/shackles" is not... well the norm.
Considering that those cuffs and shackles are the restraints of choice for every NPC faction, every law force, every slaver... it seems specious to argue that they are actually NOT what is used.

1) binding their hands works too, plus...
2) not binding their hands means they can just remove the gag, and binding them poorly means they can attempt to get out... and unlike most other enemies, once they get out they have pretty much their entire arsenal with them.

that is what "hand cuffs" were invented for.

3) less knowledge leads to *more* extreme measures being taken, not less. try this with your players some time. when they defeat a mage, give them a reason to capture that mage, and don't give them a straight answer whether or not they're going to be able to prevent spellcasting with (insert plan here), and see if they think "well, we'll just go with the minimum and hope that works".

Your missing the point.
I don't know if your doing it intentionally or not.
But your missing it completely
first off... NO ONE is EVER going to escape from the foolproof "I have you and you cant get away so nyah" prison.
Not Going To Happen
That's a strawman because it doesn't matter what no one wins against it. Basically it is the old "GM Metagames so you cant get out" crap from bad 80s modules.
Second off... If your lying to your players then your a bad GM right there and that's a problem
Third off... skills again
Fourth. Um, lets see... oh yes, back to "what is known about mages" It is well known that mages have to speak to cast spells. Hence why they have to be gagged.
So I am not sure where the rest of this is coming from.

frankly, you're more likely to wind up with "cut off all their fingers and consider magically regrowing them later" than you are "eh, we'll just handcuff this guy and hope it'll be fine".

Sure, if your playing the CS or your a GM trying to make sure the players "lose" so you "win"
Now if your playing the people as written in the settings, using the given material, given examples, and the rest... not so much.

[Shark_Force]

it is well known that mages need to be able to use their hands to cast spells too... except, you know... when they don't. because sometimes, they totally don't.

when it comes to a mage, you treat them differently from other captives, just like you would treat a full conversion combat cyborg differently, because if a normal human gets loose, they're still just a normal human. unless they are standing right next to the armoury when it happens, they can probably be instantly vapourized if even a single shot hits, and they are probably incapable of dealing meaningful damage to your own soldiers. if a mage gets loose, you have a fully armed and dangerous opponent loose, capable of doing who knows what. so sure, you're going to put handcuffs on a regular person, because a small chance that they escape is not a small chance that they could slaughter you all in a heartbeat. the mage? eh, the mage might be able to do that, and heck, who's to say they don't have some rare spell you've never heard of that doesn't require them to speak? there are dozens of kinds of mages, a significant portion of them are capable of learning each other's style of magic, and unless you've got a full up-to-the-minute report on their abilities from an infallible source, you don't know what they're capable of. you don't know if they might have access to some form of magic that doesn't rely on speech (say... nazcan line drawing, which can be learned by a ley line walker, or ocean magic, and we don't even know if the rules in the ocean magic allowing ocean magic without speech are restricted to ocean magic or can apply to other spellcasters. or the not-really-all-that-rare tattoo magic).

if you take a chance with erin tarn, about the worst thing that's going to happen is she'll escape and it will be extremely embarrassing because she'll write the story in a book. if you take a chance with alistair dunscan, when you're not looking he might literally conjure invisible demons to kill you and your friends. this is why magic is frightening to most people (and while it shouldn't be most of the time - just because i *can* grab a kitchen knife and stab someone in their sleep doesn't mean i'm at all likely to do it, just like a ley line walker who *can* lob a fire bolt at you doesn't mean they're at all likely to do it - in this particular case the paranoia is legitimate. if you have captured and tied up a spellcaster to do something to them later, it is *very* reasonable to assume that they might be able to lob a fireball at your head, and that they will actually do it if given a chance to do so).

seriously, read up on the ways that people restrain spellcasters on rifts earth. cutting off their arms and replacing them with bionic ones is literally a thing that is done. people on rifts earth do not screw around when it comes to restraining spellcasters, which is frankly pretty accurate to human nature (and also pretty reasonable... well, not going so far as to cut off their arms, but taking extra measures beyond what is normal is totally reasonable). a group of humans facing little to no real risk (if my character dies, i can just make a new one, no problem... it'll only take an hour or two, and it will even be fun) will go to extreme lengths to guarantee that the spellcaster they have captured is not going to be able to get out of their bonds and kill their completely fictional characters that they pretend to be for a few hours per week (if they're lucky... man i wish my group's schedules matched up well enough to play a few hours every week). change it to a situation where my life is at stake, and damn right i'm going to immobilize every single finger on top of all the other precautions i can take.

[Curbludgeon]

I've only read the SotA preview. Based on that table of contents, the line on pg 47 regarding converting sdc/hp to mdc is in the racial description. I suppose I'd be curious as to what bonus mdc the Undead Slayer or Monster Hunter gets (aside from the >6 tattoo bonus) in addition to the converted value (if basic stats are the same as in WB2, a first level slayer would have 3d6+6hp+50 sdc+60initial tattoo+skills), and compare that to the 2d4x10 base from the world books. Nevertheless, none of the non-Atlantean OCCs have a base mdc given, including in optional Rifter stuff like the Black Crusade. It seems pretty cut and dried that Atlanteans just get more out of supernatural conversion via tattoos.

Homophone abuse hurts everyone.

[dreicunan]

Supernatural beings have supernatural attributes. There are no canon examples of Supernatural beings that do not possess supernatural attributes.

HU 2nd edition page 293 under the Supernatural Strength power states: "Most supernatural beings (Vampires, demons, gods, etc.) will possess supernatural strength. Many demigods, godlings, spirits and supernatural beings are more likely to possess only superhuman PS."

And before any objection is raised about different settings, we know that superhuman PS now converts to robotic strength in Rifts, that means that we have canon examples of supernatural creatures without supernatural PS. Terribly represented in the books, perhaps, but it is there (see also some of the PU2 immortals Lesser Demon, Angel, Avatar of a god, and Fallen Demi-god, godling or demon lord).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

And before any objection is raised about different settings,

Trying to discount the fact that they are different games because it invalidates the argument entirely is not going to work.

They are different games.

"Convert" means it isn't part of the game. The mere fact that you have to convert it at all means its not compatible as written.

Supernatural Beings in Rifts have Supernatural Attributes.

I dont give one flying hoot what is in another game. Despite Kevin's constant nonsensical claims, the system is NOT universal, NEVER was, and wont be without a major overhaul.
Its like trying to say that Old World of Darkness games were compatible. Despite using the same game mechanics, they were definitely NOT compatible with one another.

And beyond that:

Many demigods, godlings, spirits and supernatural beings are more likely to possess only superhuman PS.

In rifts, demigods and godlings explicitly possess supernatural strength

In short: awful argument is awful.

[dreicunan]

And before any objection is raised about different settings,

Trying to discount the fact that they are different games because it invalidates the argument entirely is not going to work.

They are different games.

"Convert" means it isn't part of the game. The mere fact that you have to convert it at all means its not compatible as written.

Supernatural Beings in Rifts have Supernatural Attributes.

I dont give one flying hoot what is in another game. Despite Kevin's constant nonsensical claims, the system is NOT universal, NEVER was, and wont be without a major overhaul.
Its like trying to say that Old World of Darkness games were compatible. Despite using the same game mechanics, they were definitely NOT compatible with one another.

And beyond that:

Many demigods, godlings, spirits and supernatural beings are more likely to possess only superhuman PS.

In rifts, demigods and godlings explicitly possess supernatural strength

In short: awful argument is awful.

Glad to see you aren't trying to be tactful. I'd hate to see you change. Someday, when you buy Palladium Books, you can publish your (slow) rewrite of the rules and make decisions about what is canon and how the system works. Until then, Kevin S. gets to decide. He's stated that the system is universal. Ergo, it is, and your opinion about the sensical-ness of his stance is moot.

The Powers Unlimited 2 characters explicitly state how to handle their stats when they end up in a Mega-damage environment, and the conversion book (which also covers super powers of those born with them on Rifts Earth, so it is silly to argue that those rules aren't canon) make it clear how their strengths are handled. Thus, there are canonical supernatural beings who explicitly would not have supernatural strength on Rifts Earth.

[Mack]

Locked because some folks just can't be civil to one another.