OLOSOHOK and penalized natural 19s or 20s

[Axelmania]

Page 122

if the Strike, with bonuses, is 20 or better, then the result will be a Critical Strike (double damage).

But let's say, I am DRUNK, from page 24:

When totally drunk, the following penalties apply .. —2 to strike, parry and dodge.

If I rolled a natural 20 with no bonuses, 20+0 is 20 or better.
If I rolled a natural 19 with +1 to strike, 19+1 is 20 or better.

OLOSOHOK only says "with bonuses" not "with modifiers".

Should we take this to mean that penalties do not matter, and that even if this would normally result in a modified 18 total, that it still works?

It seems weird that penalties would not apply, even if RAW might imply that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Expand OLOSOHOK.

[Axelmania]

One Life One Shot One Hit One Kill.

I supposed 1L1S1H1K would also work. I think Os look better.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Gm's might rule that the char could not initiate that MA-Tech while drunk due to the rules about how being drunk effects chi usage.

[Axelmania]

Page 25 mentions intoxication drops chi to 1d6, not that you can't use it anymore.

OLOSOHOK is a Martial Arts Technique, I don't believe that category of abilities has any chi requirements.

Drunkness is also merely an example I'm using for a possible strike penalty. A better example might be the -3 to strike moving targets on page 134, since OLOSOHOK can work with guns.

[The Beast]

Seeing how you're talking about a specific MA technique, yes you do factor in penalties in this specific instance, unless a Nat 20 is rolled.

[Axelmania]

What is your interpretation based on? It only says "if the Strike, with bonuses, is 20 or better"

It doesn't say "the strike, with bonuses and penalties" or "the strike, with modifers". Do you view penalties as bonuses with negative numbers?

Also where are you getting this bit about penalties not applying on a natural 20?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Gm's might rule that the char could not initiate that MA-Tech while drunk due to the rules about how being drunk effects chi usage.

Page 25 mentions intoxication drops chi to 1d6, not that you can't use it anymore.
...snip

Hello, what I presented was presented as .......What GM's might do.... comment. I don't know why you didn't understand it as I presented it.

[The Beast]

What is your interpretation based on? It only says "if the Strike, with bonuses, is 20 or better"

It doesn't say "the strike, with bonuses and penalties" or "the strike, with modifers". Do you view penalties as bonuses with negative numbers?

Also where are you getting this bit about penalties not applying on a natural 20?

My interpretation is based off of that thing between my ears. If a roll says you factor in bonuses, then you obviously factor in penalties as well.

As for the Nat 20, as others have already pointed out to you, it has its own rule: A natural 20 can only be countered by another natural 20. Bonuses and penalties are irrelevant due to that rule.

[eliakon]

What is your interpretation based on? It only says "if the Strike, with bonuses, is 20 or better"

It doesn't say "the strike, with bonuses and penalties" or "the strike, with modifers". Do you view penalties as bonuses with negative numbers?

Also where are you getting this bit about penalties not applying on a natural 20?

No many how many threads you start on this topic (This is what? The third in a week?)
The answers you will get from people are going to be the same.
You wont be able to forum shop around until you can find a sympathetic group that will help you with your answer and give you the reply that you seem to be desiring.
As such it appears that based on all three threads that the general consensus is that a n20 is going to hit, even if there are penalties, because luck is luck is luck.

[Axelmania]

Please stop arguing a straw man. I am not asking whether or not OLOSHOHOK will hit, but whether or not it's hit becomes a critical strike.

Beast I agree with you in spirit that penalties ought to be applied everywhere. Even places without bonuses. I don't think we explicitly have to be told to apply them because in glossaries, penalties are said to apply to rolls.

That said, I have never seen the natural 20 always-critical and always-hit rules to mean a lack of bonuses.

In the case of a natural 20 on an OLOSOHOK, you could have a double-critical, which would be x3.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Please stop arguing a straw man. I am not asking whether or not OLOSHOHOK will hit, but whether or not it's hit becomes a critical strike.

.

Then you should of asked this question ....Clearly.... in the OP. And not dancing around the issue.

The answer is Exactly like the Text says.
However, if the total strike roll is less then 20...no crit.
The text does not say to include any WP, H2H & MAF bonuses when calculating the strike roll when using this MAT.

As a GM I might limit the Strike bonuses counted for this MAT to only those acquired with/through this MAT.

[eliakon]

Please stop arguing a straw man. I am not asking whether or not OLOSHOHOK will hit, but whether or not it's hit becomes a critical strike.

Beast I agree with you in spirit that penalties ought to be applied everywhere. Even places without bonuses. I don't think we explicitly have to be told to apply them because in glossaries, penalties are said to apply to rolls.

That said, I have never seen the natural 20 always-critical and always-hit rules to mean a lack of bonuses.

In the case of a natural 20 on an OLOSOHOK, you could have a double-critical, which would be x3.

The answer is no different than the other two forums. It is, in fact even MORE obvious here.
OLOSOHOK only crits on a 19-20
If you get a 19-10 it is a critical. La la la
If you get a n20 that is a double damage hit la la la
thus with this attack and an20 it is x3
the whole penalties to n20 thing though has been discussed to death in the other two forums and there is no need to attempt to try and start that up again here. The answers to that question are not going to change.

[The Beast]

Please stop arguing a straw man. I am not asking whether or not OLOSHOHOK will hit, but whether or not it's hit becomes a critical strike.

.

Then you should of asked this question ....Clearly.... in the OP. And not dancing around the issue.

The answer is No.
Crit. strikes with ranged weapons only occure with a Nat 20 roll to strike.

Actually this power would allow any weapon to inflict double damage if the total result is 20 or higher. So whether it's a sword, crossbow, M16, or plasma-cartridge gun as long as the roll is high enough it'll inflict double damage. However it doesn't work for punches, kicks, bites, tail swipes, and similar attacks.

On a side note will I could see it also being used with handheld weapons for mecha units (ie: Boom gun, SAMAS railgun, ect) I doubt the author had weapon systems in mind when he wrote this power up and therefore I wouldn't allow it to be used with those systems in a game I ran.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Then you should of asked this question ....Clearly.... in the OP. And not dancing around the issue.

The answer is Exactly like the Text says.
However, if the total strike roll is less then 20...no crit.
H2H & MAF bonuses are not included.

As a GM I might limit the Strike bonuses counted for this MAT to only those acquired with/through this MAT.

Would a nat 20 make it a double crit? Maybe, depending on how your GM ruled how the MAT works. If ruled it raised the nat die roll then no, if ruled it is just another bonus with special rules then yes. Since this is not covered by the text it would be a house rule ether way.

[eliakon]

Please stop arguing a straw man. I am not asking whether or not OLOSHOHOK will hit, but whether or not it's hit becomes a critical strike.

.

Then you should of asked this question ....Clearly.... in the OP. And not dancing around the issue.

The answer is No.
Crit. strikes with ranged weapons only occure with a Nat 20 roll to strike.

Actually this power would allow any weapon to inflict double damage if the total result is 20 or higher. So whether it's a sword, crossbow, M16, or plasma-cartridge gun as long as the roll is high enough it'll inflict double damage. However it doesn't work for punches, kicks, bites, tail swipes, and similar attacks.

On a side note will I could see it also being used with handheld weapons for mecha units (ie: Boom gun, SAMAS railgun, ect) I doubt the author had weapon systems in mind when he wrote this power up and therefore I wouldn't allow it to be used with those systems in a game I ran.

Specially it can be used with any Martial Art Form you possess.
Thus any weapon you have a Kata for you can use it with.
If you can get Weapon Kata Heavy Energy, then go right ahead and use it with a railgun or plasma gun
If you can get Weapon Kata Weapon Systems approved by your GM then go for if it, its SAMAS time.
But you need to have a MAF to use it, and MAFs need a Kata to use weapons.
The only possible[ exception I can see is if you were someone who can take 2 full MAFs and you take a MAF for the One Hit bla bla and as your other MAF you take one of the quickie MAFs known as the N&SS versions of the H2H styles.
Then it is plausible that your GM might allow you to use the Techniques with your H2H style. Maybe then again maybe not. My Magic 8-Ball is a bit hazy on this one you will have to consult your personal GM to find out the actual ruling that applies at that table for that game.

[Axelmania]

H2H & MAF bonuses are not included.

As a GM I might limit the Strike bonuses counted for this MAT to only those acquired with/through this MAT.

Stacking H2H/MAF bonuses with WP bonuses would be allowed in cases of a Weapon Kata. Do you think anything prohibits this?

Why would you house-rule only the 1/round MAT supplement to be counted?

OLOSOHOK only crits on a 19-20

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but you are wrong either way.

If you mean a total of 19, then no, you need a total of 20 or higher.

If you mean a natural 19, then also no. I can roll a natural 1 and get +19 to strike from having concentrated 19 melee rounds (4 minutes 45 seconds) and still have a modified 20, getting a critical.

That is, of course, if I don't have penalties, if penalties are considered.

If you get a 19-10 it is a critical. La la la

This is the question being asked. "With bonuses" isn't necessarily "without penalties", after all.

We don't have to be told "with penalties" in every instance of dice rolling to be able to apply them, is the point I'm arguing here.

Otherwise, penalties would barely ever apply, as they are rarely called out when explaining rules.

I believe when we are told penalties apply, an argument could be made that they always apply except where explicitly said not to apply, and that being told to apply bonuses is not such a prohibition.

[Zer0 Kay]

Thanks for reminding me. Had a player who always said OSOHOK ended up we nicknamed his character Ahso Hawk, I guess with the OL he could be Ol' Ahso Hawk

[drewkitty ~..~]

Edited the root post.

[eliakon]

Then you should of asked this question ....Clearly.... in the OP. And not dancing around the issue.

The answer is Exactly like the Text says.
However, if the total strike roll is less then 20...no crit.
H2H & MAF bonuses are not included.

As a GM I might limit the Strike bonuses counted for this MAT to only those acquired with/through this MAT.

Would a nat 20 make it a double crit? Maybe, depending on how your GM ruled how the MAT works. If ruled it raised the nat die roll then no, if ruled it is just another bonus with special rules then yes. Since this is not covered by the text it would be a house rule ether way.

Incorrect. It is only a house rule if he makes it a natural roll. The tecnique provides a bonus to strike. Unless said bounus explicitly says it is natural, then it is not natural, this after all is what +1 bonus to strike means, its a bonus. That is what the words "natural" or "unmodified" and "bonus" mean after all.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Would a nat 20 make it a double crit? Maybe, depending on how your GM ruled how the MAT works. If ruled it raised the nat die roll then no, if ruled it is just another bonus with special rules then yes. Since this is not covered by the text it would be a house rule ether way.

Incorrect. It is only a house rule if he makes it a natural roll. The tecnique provides a bonus to strike. Unless said bounus explicitly says it is natural, then it is not natural, this after all is what +1 bonus to strike means, its a bonus. That is what the words "natural" or "unmodified" and "bonus" mean after all.

So....you are saying that if a Nat 20 is rolled when using this MAT, then the damage is multiplied by 3? (iow: a is a double crit.?)
Or are you saying that the MAT bonus is just a bonus. But there can only be one Crit Strike multiplier applied to the damage?

[The Beast]

Well the only thing this power does is allow for double damage if the total roll is 20 or higher instead of on a natural 20 only, so my guess is no, it would not provide an increase of the multiplier in and of itself. Now if there's another factor that the attacker qualifies for (ie: from behind) and they meet the power's requirements there'd be an increase of the multiplier.

[eliakon]

Would a nat 20 make it a double crit? Maybe, depending on how your GM ruled how the MAT works. If ruled it raised the nat die roll then no, if ruled it is just another bonus with special rules then yes. Since this is not covered by the text it would be a house rule ether way.

Incorrect. It is only a house rule if he makes it a natural roll. The tecnique provides a bonus to strike. Unless said bounus explicitly says it is natural, then it is not natural, this after all is what +1 bonus to strike means, its a bonus. That is what the words "natural" or "unmodified" and "bonus" mean after all.

So....you are saying that if a Nat 20 is rolled when using this MAT, then the damage is multiplied by 3? (iow: a is a double crit.?)
Or are you saying that the MAT bonus is just a bonus. But there can only be one Crit Strike multiplier applied to the damage?

I am saying that a n20 is treated like any other n20 and modified 20 is treated like a modified 20.
No more, no less.

[drewkitty ~..~]

eli you were asked a direct question. So instead of using a politician's sidestepping answer that does not directly answer the question that was asked. Please answer the question directly.

[Axelmania]

After 1 melee's concentration, modified 20 or higher generates a critical.

Natural 20s generate criticals.

So generated criticals stack as a x3.

[eliakon]

eli you were asked a direct question. So instead of using a politician's sidestepping answer that does not directly answer the question that was asked. Please answer the question directly.

I did. There was no "politician's sidestepping answer"
I told you exactly how it is handled. (aka a direct answer)
I told you that it is handled like the book says to handle a n20s and critical hits and all the rest. It is in the combat section. You can go read the exact text yourself if you would like.
The game rules are pretty clear on this issue.
Thus my answer. "Follow the rules as written in the combat section" I, frankly can't make it any clearer.

The question you are asking has no relevance to my statement that adding a +1 bonus to strike means a roll in not natural though.
That is the definition of the system.
A natural roll is the original roll as it appears on the dice. The modified roll = (natural roll) + (all bonuses) - (all penalties).
The ONLY time that this is different is if something explicitly states that it provides a bonus that is treated as natural.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So....you are saying that if a Nat 20 is rolled when using this MAT, then the damage is multiplied by 3? (iow: a is a double crit.?)

It ""Sounded"" like you were saying yes to this eli but you didn't say your answer in a way that was EXPLICITLY saying 'yes, like that' or even "simmiler to that". And no "not like that at all" ether. This is what I mean when I said you didn't answer the question directly.
At to politician's sidestepping....you just stated a comment you wanted to use as an answer, instead of answering the question asked directly. Which politicians do all the time. So pardon me if I got irritatied that you didn't answer the question directly when asked a direct question.

So maybe giving an Example of how you would handle a nat 20 when it occures when using the OLOSOHOK MAT.

[Axelmania]

Martial Arts Techniques are interchangable like Chi Masteries, unlike Atemi / Katas which can only be used with the form you buy them with.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Martial Arts Techniques are interchangeable like Chi Masteries, unlike Atemi / Katas which can only be used with the form you buy them with.

And why does this non sequitur comment have anything to do with the conversation?

By the way the correct phrasing would be something like "Martial Arts Techniques are usable with any MAF..." Which is only slightly paraphrased from the canon text.
Using 'interchangeable' by itself does not quite fit the meaning you meant to mean. But if you had used it this way '...interchangeable between MAF...' it would not of been as far off as when used alone.
And Atemi abilities and Katas 'come with' MAF. Not 'bought through.'
( you did ask elsewhere what a grammar nazi does. And this was the first time I found after that to give you an answer to that question of yours.)

[Axelmania]

I think I misread " when using the OLOSOHOK MAT" as "when using the OLOSOHOK MAF"

"Bought" seems okay, since you can "pay" by expending "martial art technique of choice" or "atemi of choice" variables.

I suppose "between MAF" would have added some clarifying context to interchangeable. "Usable with any MAF" perhaps even more so. Should have mentioned Body Hardening Techniques too. Can't recall where Arts of Invisibility fall.

[cms6317]

OLOSOHOK can still work even if drunk, ask a Drunken Style Kung Fu Master.

[Axelmania]

Mystic China 180 says they emulate being drunk, not actually get drunk. Page 157's "Yung Chin" seems related to concept, but as a Demon Hunter Body Hardening it isn't available to Drunken Style.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Page 122

if the Strike, with bonuses, is 20 or better, then the result will be a Critical Strike (double damage).

But let's say, I am DRUNK, from page 24:

When totally drunk, the following penalties apply .. —2 to strike, parry and dodge.

If I rolled a natural 20 with no bonuses, 20+0 is 20 or better.
If I rolled a natural 19 with +1 to strike, 19+1 is 20 or better.

OLOSOHOK only says "with bonuses" not "with modifiers".

Should we take this to mean that penalties do not matter, and that even if this would normally result in a modified 18 total, that it still works?

It seems weird that penalties would not apply, even if RAW might imply that.

You don't have to stop at +20. OLOSOHOK says you keep getting +1 until you fire or your concentration is broken. Snipers are known to stay in one spot for over a day waiting. Just hang around for a day and rack up +3600 strike for waiting 24 hours.

For extra fun, see if you can talk your GM into combining that with the rules in the Rifts Game Masters Guide where you can shoot at beyond a guns listed range at growing penalties to hit per X feet beyond. If you can go without moving or sleeping for long enough you can technically shoot someone on the other side of the planet. So what if you can't actually see them? shooting blind at a target is only -8 and OLOSOHOK doesn't say you need to see your target.

The problem of course, is that it's actually illegal to use this power with guns. You can only use martial art techniques with weapons for which you have a Kata. Only Triad Assassin has a Kata for any type of Firearm, and they don't get to learn Martial Arts Techniques with it.

So it's only useful for bows or other types of Ancient Weapons. Get a Greater Zen Master's bow, then the arrow can also can go around obsticles and pass through slots or slits in walls or under a door, or keyholes. Your enemy will be unable to ever leave a 100% hermetically sealed room without fear of you sniping him from anywhere on earth. Now you see why Emporer Prosek never leaves his throne room?

[Axelmania]

Snipers are known to stay in one spot for over a day waiting. Just hang around for a day and rack up +3600 strike for waiting 24 hours.

We should probably have some kind of rules to deal with that. I recall an episode of Golgo 13 where the eponymous sniper dosed himself with muscle relaxants to prevent tensing up from that kind of prolonged tension interfering with his ability to keep steady / unexhausted.

You can only use martial art techniques with weapons for which you have a Kata.

I don't recall this rule. Please cite where you got this idea from. Also keep in mind that MAT are interchangeable between forms, so Triad Assassin lacking MAT doesn't matter. Plus there's really nothing preventing non-Triad forms from selecting katas with ranged weapons, Triad's merely the only one which STARTS with it.

[cms6317]

You can only use martial art techniques with weapons for which you have a Kata.

I don't recall this rule. Please cite where you got this idea from. Also keep in mind that MAT are interchangeable between forms, so Triad Assassin lacking MAT doesn't matter. Plus there's really nothing preventing non-Triad forms from selecting katas with ranged weapons, Triad's merely the only one which STARTS with it.[/quote]

Triad Assassin isn't the only one with firearms.
There is the Chi Kung from Rifter 03.
You can look at the Rifts China Gun Master.
There is also this: http://www.geocities.ws/kuseru/PMAN/Styles/gun_fu.htm

I think it is up to your GM. Mine permitted Tamashiwara with Fire Arms.

[Axelmania]

I don't think the Rifter 3 styles are considered canon.

[eliakon]

You can only use martial art techniques with weapons for which you have a Kata.

I don't recall this rule. Please cite where you got this idea from. Also keep in mind that MAT are interchangeable between forms, so Triad Assassin lacking MAT doesn't matter. Plus there's really nothing preventing non-Triad forms from selecting katas with ranged weapons, Triad's merely the only one which STARTS with it.

Triad Assassin isn't the only one with firearms.
There is the Chi Kung from Rifter 03.
You can look at the Rifts China Gun Master.
There is also this: http://www.geocities.ws/kuseru/PMAN/Styles/gun_fu.htm

I think it is up to your GM. Mine permitted Tamashiwara with Fire Arms.

The rule is easy
You can only use weapons with a MAF if you have a Kata for it.
The only source of MATs is from a MAF
ergo, you must be using a MAF... and thus must have a Kata as there is currently no book legal way I am aware of to have a character with a MAT who is not using a MAF as their fighting skill.

The question of if a Dedicated Martial Artist can take Triad Assassin and something else is one for the GM to decide on if they will allow that combination or not.

[Axelmania]

You need to have a MAF to GET a MAT, you don't need to be using a MAF to USE a MAT. You're not using any specific form when you're asleep, for example, but despite 117's "the bonuses from Body Hardening Exercises can be used with any martial art form." this wouldn't mean you lose your SDC bonuses when you fall asleep. Martial Arts Powers should be assumed to always be useable outside their source form except where we're specifically told they're only usable within the source form, such as with Atemi/Katas.

120's "any of these skills can be used in conjunction with any martial art form" for MAT is not asserting they are part of the form and subject to those restrictions. That's why it's "with" and not "within".

123's example of Kobu-Jutsu "the use of a spear while fighting with the usual Isshin-Ryu moves and bonuses" wouldn't be required to use OLOSOHOK with a spear, for example, because that already works with "any weapon". That expression would not be used if it only applied to weapons you had katas in.