Strength above 30.

[rc_brooks]

The RUE says that for every 5 points above 30 carrying and lifting is increased by 30%. Is this increase limited to normal strength or does it apply to supernatural and robotic strength as well?

[eliakon]

The RUE says that for every 5 points above 30 carrying and lifting is increased by 30%. Is this increase limited to normal strength or does it apply to supernatural and robotic strength as well?

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't.
It says strength, not "only regular strength"
So any strength will get the boost.

[13eowulf]

The RUE says that for every 5 points above 30 carrying and lifting is increased by 30%. Is this increase limited to normal strength or does it apply to supernatural and robotic strength as well?

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't.
It says strength, not "only regular strength"
So any strength will get the boost.

On page 284 of the RUE it actually does specify Ordinary "Human" Physical Strength (P.S.) right in the bolded header that contains the particular text reference.
I agree that if it did not specify all would get the boost.
But the O.P. needn't have asked as the answer is in the section header.

[rc_brooks]

Already we've illustrated the disagreement our group was having. The subhead is for Normal Human strength but the title for the section is "Attributes Above 30" ((I may be paraphrasing)). So the argument was that the other attributes apply to all being. The subhead was making a statement about normal human strength but the other points below that wasn't just about human strength but applied to all strength types. My point was the same as yours. I think mostly I am looking for consensus.

[ShadowLogan]

Already we've illustrated the disagreement our group was having. The subhead is for Normal Human strength but the title for the section is "Attributes Above 30" ((I may be paraphrasing)). So the argument was that the other attributes apply to all being. The subhead was making a statement about normal human strength but the other points below that wasn't just about human strength but applied to all strength types. My point was the same as yours. I think mostly I am looking for consensus.

The greater than 30 attribute text in question is specifically for "Ordinary 'Human' Physical Strength". All this means is that Augmented, Robotic and Supernatural PS don't get an extra bonus for being over 30. If parts where to apply to all PS categories I would think Palladium would mention it.

Just remember that other PS categories have certain advantages over Ordinary PS. Robotic PS actually has a scale for Giant Robots, SN greatly exceeds ordinary PS at this level, all can do MD where Ordinary PS can't.

[dreicunan]

We know that the bonus sdc damage from strength applies to the other kinds of strength. That invalidates any argument about the heading limiting what follows to normal human strength. The idea that a juucer with PS 35 can carrry less than an unaugmented human with PS 35 is also ludicrous on its face, as is the idea that the normal strength human with PS 35 can carry more than a character with robotic PS 35.

[HarleeKnight]

We know that the bonus sdc damage from strength applies to the other kinds of strength. That invalidates any argument about the heading limiting what follows to normal human strength. The idea that a juucer with PS 35 can carrry less than an unaugmented human with PS 35 is also ludicrous on its face, as is the idea that the normal strength human with PS 35 can carry more than a character with robotic PS 35.

Yeah, can I get a book and page number for this? I haven't seen this anywhere and we have always played that it doesn't.

[dreicunan]

We know that the bonus sdc damage from strength applies to the other kinds of strength. That invalidates any argument about the heading limiting what follows to normal human strength. The idea that a juucer with PS 35 can carrry less than an unaugmented human with PS 35 is also ludicrous on its face, as is the idea that the normal strength human with PS 35 can carry more than a character with robotic PS 35.

Yeah, can I get a book and page number for this? I haven't seen this anywhere and we have always played that it doesn't.

Well, you've been playing it wrong according to RAW then (though since the damage is SDC, adding 15 sdc to even 1 MD normally doesn't make a difference). RUE p. 279 notes that any character with a PS of 16 or higher gets a bonus to damage. RUE p. 284 reminds the readee that the SDC damage bonus for augmented strength is considerable and refers the reader back to both the Attribute bonus chart and Attributes beyond 30 (yet more evidence that the title does not limit the undelined rules to "ordinary" PS).

[shadrak]

We know that the bonus sdc damage from strength applies to the other kinds of strength. That invalidates any argument about the heading limiting what follows to normal human strength. The idea that a juucer with PS 35 can carrry less than an unaugmented human with PS 35 is also ludicrous on its face, as is the idea that the normal strength human with PS 35 can carry more than a character with robotic PS 35.

Yeah, can I get a book and page number for this? I haven't seen this anywhere and we have always played that it doesn't.

Well, you've been playing it wrong according to RAW then (though since the damage is SDC, adding 15 sdc to even 1 MD normally doesn't make a difference). RUE p. 279 notes that any character with a PS of 16 or higher gets a bonus to damage. RUE p. 284 reminds the readee that the SDC damage bonus for augmented strength is considerable and refers the reader back to both the Attribute bonus chart and Attributes beyond 30 (yet more evidence that the title does not limit the undelined rules to "ordinary" PS).

Doesn't RUE give carry and lift levels for augmented/robotic/SN strength above 30?

If so, the chart is canon...but if it makes sense that your giant robot with a robotic PS of 45 cab lift more than the 8 foot SN demon with a SN PS of 46, go with your gut.

[shadrak]

PS: strength bonuses for AN strength apply only when making an SDC attack (example: using a neural made or SDC sword).

[shadrak]

With regard to Augmented strength, it DOES get the strength beyond 30 bonuses (see page 285), but robotic and SN do not...
So no worries about the juicer and the body builder...they BOTH get the bonus

[13eowulf]

With regard to Augmented strength, it DOES get the strength beyond 30 bonuses (see page 285), but robotic and SN do not...
So no worries about the juicer and the body builder...they BOTH get the bonus

Well, it specifically and explicitly refers to the S.D.C. damage bonus, but not the lift/carry bonus, so, strictly speaking, Augmented strength does not get the lift/carry bonus.

[13eowulf]

With regard to Augmented strength, it DOES get the strength beyond 30 bonuses (see page 285), but robotic and SN do not...
So no worries about the juicer and the body builder...they BOTH get the bonus

Well, it specifically and explicitly refers to the S.D.C. damage bonus, but not the lift/carry bonus, so, strictly speaking, Augmented strength does not get the lift/carry bonus.

I am gonna go ahead and retract this statement, can call myself not quite correct.
It seems that I forgot that Augmented PS uses the same life/carry multipliers as normal P.S. as Normal PS, and has no separate listing the way Robotic and Supernatural PS does.
Now, having said that, it could still be interpreted as not applying, but I can see now that it can be interpreted. It is ambiguous at best.

Unlike Robotic and Supernatural, which it does not apply to at all.

[Mack]

Ugh. This post reminds my why PS gives me a headache.

Even without the +30% rule from p284, here's the carrying weight for few classes:

Code: Select all

PS    Normal  Crazy(2x)  Juicer(4x)  Robot  Supernatural
5     50      n/a        n/a         50     100
10    100     n/a        n/a         100    200
15    150     n/a        n/a         150    300
20    400     n/a        n/a         500    1000
25    500     1000       2000        625    1250
35    700     1400       2800        875    1750
40    800     1600       3200        1000   2000
45    900     1800       3600        1125   2250
50    1000    2000       4000        1250   2500

So at PS 25 a Crazy carries more than a Full Cyborg, and a Juicer carries more than a Dragon.

[dreicunan]

PS: strength bonuses for AN strength apply only when making an SDC attack (example: using a neural made or SDC sword).

PS damage bonus always applies, regardless of type of strength, but for an MD atrack would only matter if your damage bonus was +100 sdc, and thus translated to +1 MD. Since that would take PS 115, it is unlikely to actually occur. On the other hand, some GMs might add the +1 if you have PS 65 or higher and do a double damage attack. For attacks that do triple damage, it would only take PS 49, and if there is a way to get to quadruple then it would be PS 40. Not a frequent issue, but possible.

However, the fact that the PS damage bonues applies to all types of strength most definitely matters in some cases, like Cold-Blooded (with Robotic PS) being able to damage vampires with a punch, kick, or bite.

[shadrak]

PS: strength bonuses for AN strength apply only when making an SDC attack (example: using a neural made or SDC sword).

PS damage bonus always applies, regardless of type of strength, but for an MD atrack would only matter if your damage bonus was +100 sdc, and thus translated to +1 MD. Since that would take PS 115, it is unlikely to actually occur. On the other hand, some GMs might add the +1 if you have PS 65 or higher and do a double damage attack. For attacks that do triple damage, it would only take PS 49, and if there is a way to get to quadruple then it would be PS 40. Not a frequent issue, but possible.

However, the fact that the PS damage bonues applies to all types of strength most definitely matters in some cases, like Cold-Blooded (with Robotic PS) being able to damage vampires with a punch, kick, or bite.

No,

Strength bonuses do not apply to Robotic and SN strength on a full strength/MD or power punch/MD attack...if this were the case, the RUE would say so...and the RUE does not say so.


IN FACT,

RUE, Page 285, 2nd to last paragraph:

"NOTE: Superantural beings do NOT add the P.S. attribute damage bonus to their M.D. Attacks, but may add it to pulled punches that inflict SDC damage instead of MD."

You could make the call the Robotic Strength COULD add SDC damage to an MD attack, but I don't think the developers intended SDC bonuses to be stacked with MD at all, even if it "doesn't make a difference"

[shadrak]

NOTE:

Augmented Strength SPECIFICALLY says it gets the same bonuses as non-augmented strength.

Robotic Strength does not specify

Supernatural Strength SPECIFICALLY says it does not get the bonuses...

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

Maybe we can get some of these religious dudes to do it sometime.

[shadrak]

Oh...one other thing...

Since we are ACTUALLY READING the RUE...

While Robotic strength doesn't say specifically that Strength bonuses don't apply to full strength punches, in the actual listing of damage for each strength band the RUE says:

"P.S. Bonuses are added to SDC attacks."

Since it specifies that Strength bonuses are added to SDC attacks and it DOES NOT specify that Strength bonuses are added to MD attacks, I will point to this as significant evidence that the developers did not intend SDC bonuses to be applied to MD attacks at all, even if doing so would be an absolute waste of time (unless you were a robot with 21 PS (robotic) and you punched a juicer and did 3 MD and he had 280 SDC and 45 HP...in which case applying the SDC damage to the MD would be a benefit that you would want but you would not get it because....

SDC damage bonuses are not added to MD attacks).

[shadrak]

With regard to Augmented strength, it DOES get the strength beyond 30 bonuses (see page 285), but robotic and SN do not...
So no worries about the juicer and the body builder...they BOTH get the bonus

Well, it specifically and explicitly refers to the S.D.C. damage bonus, but not the lift/carry bonus, so, strictly speaking, Augmented strength does not get the lift/carry bonus.

I am gonna go ahead and retract this statement, can call myself not quite correct.
It seems that I forgot that Augmented PS uses the same life/carry multipliers as normal P.S. as Normal PS, and has no separate listing the way Robotic and Supernatural PS does.
Now, having said that, it could still be interpreted as not applying, but I can see now that it can be interpreted. It is ambiguous at best.

Unlike Robotic and Supernatural, which it does not apply to at all.

Given that the RUE topic of Weight and Movement specifies the following classifications:
Normal
Strong
Robots
Supernatural Creatures

You would do the following:

Anyone that does not have robotic strength or SN strength AND their strength is less than 17 (unlikely Augmented could be this low but if it were, use these rules) - 10 x strength
Anyone that does not have robotic strength or SN strength, but their strength is 17 or greater (INCLUDING Augmented Characters), 20 x Strength UNLESS their OCC or RCC specifies otherwise (Crazies are x 30, Juicers are x 40...from some FAQ or other...I think RUE errata).


Seriously, its pretty self explanatory, guys...Juicers DO NOT lift more than dragons....

They get a x 40 in lieu of the x20.

PS- You caught a developer error between Rifts Main Rulebook and Rifts RUE...I believe they ported the language "4x more than normal of equivilent strength and endurance" from the Main Book (check main book...verbage is the same).

If you want your head to explode on strength, try understanding Wormwood...

Or why Palladium gave Wolfen Robotic strength in the updated conversion book

[13eowulf]

With regard to Augmented strength, it DOES get the strength beyond 30 bonuses (see page 285), but robotic and SN do not...
So no worries about the juicer and the body builder...they BOTH get the bonus

Well, it specifically and explicitly refers to the S.D.C. damage bonus, but not the lift/carry bonus, so, strictly speaking, Augmented strength does not get the lift/carry bonus.

I am gonna go ahead and retract this statement, can call myself not quite correct.
It seems that I forgot that Augmented PS uses the same life/carry multipliers as normal P.S. as Normal PS, and has no separate listing the way Robotic and Supernatural PS does.
Now, having said that, it could still be interpreted as not applying, but I can see now that it can be interpreted. It is ambiguous at best.

Unlike Robotic and Supernatural, which it does not apply to at all.

Given that the RUE topic of Weight and Movement specifies the following classifications:
Normal
Strong
Robots
Supernatural Creatures

You would do the following:

Anyone that does not have robotic strength or SN strength AND their strength is less than 17 (unlikely Augmented could be this low but if it were, use these rules) - 10 x strength
Anyone that does not have robotic strength or SN strength, but their strength is 17 or greater (INCLUDING Augmented Characters), 20 x Strength UNLESS their OCC or RCC specifies otherwise (Crazies are x 30, Juicers are x 40...from some FAQ or other...I think RUE errata).


Seriously, its pretty self explanatory, guys...Juicers DO NOT lift more than dragons....

They get a x 40 in lieu of the x20.

PS- You caught a developer error between Rifts Main Rulebook and Rifts RUE...I believe they ported the language "4x more than normal of equivilent strength and endurance" from the Main Book (check main book...verbage is the same).

If you want your head to explode on strength, try understanding Wormwood...

Or why Palladium gave Wolfen Robotic strength in the updated conversion book

Uhh.... kay?
I am referring to the OP question... not what you appear to be referring to here.

Though there probably will be instances where Juicers will lift more than a dragon.... IF you wish to clarify further criteria, that may help, but that blanket statement is false.

[dreicunan]

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

RUE p. 286 under Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: "When wielding a hand weapon...supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per supernatural strength." Since that "weapon damage" would include things like vibroblades and magic swords, we have a clear case of sdc being added to an MD attack.

Also, check out question #72

Now, given that we've had a thread locked recently due to incivility, I kindly invite you to adopt a more civil tone in your posts before this one gets locked as well.

[Mack]

Here's another oddity from PS...

A strong human with a PS 25 can lift 1,000 pounds, where a Cyborg with Robotic PS 25 can only lift 625 pounds. Across the board, weak & strong humans can lift more than a robot. This is because Robotic PS does NOT get the x2 muliplier for lifting.

[13eowulf]

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

RUE p. 286 under Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: "When wielding a hand weapon...supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per supernatural strength." Since that "weapon damage" would include things like vibroblades and magic swords, we have a clear case of sdc being added to an MD attack.

Also, check out question #72

Now, given that we've had a thread locked recently due to incivility, I kindly invite you to adopt a more civil tone in your posts before this one gets locked as well.

While I agree with you on civility, I will point out that question number 72 uses a PS of 28 as an example. Not to nit pick, but the attributes 16-30 bonus chart does not specify Normal PS, it is only the Attributes beyond 30 that does. So it doesnt quite address the issue.

[dreicunan]

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

RUE p. 286 under Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: "When wielding a hand weapon...supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per supernatural strength." Since that "weapon damage" would include things like vibroblades and magic swords, we have a clear case of sdc being added to an MD attack.

Also, check out question #72

Now, given that we've had a thread locked recently due to incivility, I kindly invite you to adopt a more civil tone in your posts before this one gets locked as well.

While I agree with you on civility, I will point out that question number 72 uses a PS of 28 as an example. Not to nit pick, but the attributes 16-30 bonus chart does not specify Normal PS, it is only the Attributes beyond 30 that does. So it doesnt quite address the issue.

To which I would return to my point that the title of that section does not match up with how we know that rule is applied. There are plenty of other examples in the Palladium system of a PS of any type above 30 giving the sdc damage bonus regardless of type of strength (like in HU, for example). One could look at all the Deities with over 30 supernatural PS that have an SDC damage bonus listed in Conversion book 2, a damage bonus which in nearly every, if not every, case corresponds to what the PS bonus from the continuation of the chart would be.

The better way to simplify this issue would be for them to update the chart to reflect that the PS damage bonus is always SDC damage absent a special rule somewhere like Thor has.

[13eowulf]

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

RUE p. 286 under Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: "When wielding a hand weapon...supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per supernatural strength." Since that "weapon damage" would include things like vibroblades and magic swords, we have a clear case of sdc being added to an MD attack.

Also, check out question #72

Now, given that we've had a thread locked recently due to incivility, I kindly invite you to adopt a more civil tone in your posts before this one gets locked as well.

While I agree with you on civility, I will point out that question number 72 uses a PS of 28 as an example. Not to nit pick, but the attributes 16-30 bonus chart does not specify Normal PS, it is only the Attributes beyond 30 that does. So it doesnt quite address the issue.

To which I would return to my point that the title of that section does not match up with how we know that rule is applied. There are plenty of other examples in the Palladium system of a PS of any type above 30 giving the sdc damage bonus regardless of type of strength (like in HU, for example). One could look at all the Deities with over 30 supernatural PS that have an SDC damage bonus listed in Conversion book 2, a damage bonus which in nearly every, if not every, case corresponds to what the PS bonus from the continuation of the chart would be.

The better way to simplify this issue would be for them to update the chart to reflect that the PS damage bonus is always SDC damage absent a special rule somewhere like Thor has.

To which I would reply that you are referring to books either not part of Rifts, where some things may work slightly differently, or older than the RUE, in which case the RUE rule stands as the new standard.
I would also point out that not all NPCs follow the standard rules, and using them as an example is fallacy.

And none of this talk of damage bonus addresses the OP, which is about lift/carry bonuses, which none of your examples show evidence of possessing, lending further credence to the fact that the life/carry bonus listed under attributes over 30 for Normal P.S. is not to by applied to Robotic or Supernatural P.S.

[shadrak]

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

RUE p. 286 under Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: "When wielding a hand weapon...supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per supernatural strength." Since that "weapon damage" would include things like vibroblades and magic swords, we have a clear case of sdc being added to an MD attack.

Also, check out question #72

Now, given that we've had a thread locked recently due to incivility, I kindly invite you to adopt a more civil tone in your posts before this one gets locked as well.

While I agree with you on civility, I will point out that question number 72 uses a PS of 28 as an example. Not to nit pick, but the attributes 16-30 bonus chart does not specify Normal PS, it is only the Attributes beyond 30 that does. So it doesnt quite address the issue.

To which I would return to my point that the title of that section does not match up with how we know that rule is applied. There are plenty of other examples in the Palladium system of a PS of any type above 30 giving the sdc damage bonus regardless of type of strength (like in HU, for example). One could look at all the Deities with over 30 supernatural PS that have an SDC damage bonus listed in Conversion book 2, a damage bonus which in nearly every, if not every, case corresponds to what the PS bonus from the continuation of the chart would be.

The better way to simplify this issue would be for them to update the chart to reflect that the PS damage bonus is always SDC damage absent a special rule somewhere like Thor has.

To which I would reply that you are referring to books either not part of Rifts, where some things may work slightly differently, or older than the RUE, in which case the RUE rule stands as the new standard.
I would also point out that not all NPCs follow the standard rules, and using them as an example is fallacy.

And none of this talk of damage bonus addresses the OP, which is about lift/carry bonuses, which none of your examples show evidence of possessing, lending further credence to the fact that the life/carry bonus listed under attributes over 30 for Normal P.S. is not to by applied to Robotic or Supernatural P.S.

13eowulf is correct.

Question #72 is also in an FAQ that references the term "SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH" not "augmented strength"...

And question 115 says that other T-Men do not have supernatural strength...something that I believe was retconned recently...

So I am not so sure that a random FAQ that may or may not be updated regularly is the best method of determining what an answer should be...

The Combat FAQ rules references Rifts Main Book repeatedly.

That FAQ is also a major source of confusion about MDC and Wormwood.

I would say that these FAQs predate RUE.

If you want to stand on it as current cannon, fine.

But it doesn't change anything that I wrote.

[dreicunan]

To which I would reply that you are referring to books either not part of Rifts, where some things may work slightly differently, or older than the RUE, in which case the RUE rule stands as the new standard.
I would also point out that not all NPCs follow the standard rules, and using them as an example is fallacy.

And none of this talk of damage bonus addresses the OP, which is about lift/carry bonuses, which none of your examples show evidence of possessing, lending further credence to the fact that the life/carry bonus listed under attributes over 30 for Normal P.S. is not to by applied to Robotic or Supernatural P.S.

13eowulf is correct.

Question #72 is also in an FAQ that references the term "SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH" not "augmented strength"...

And question 115 says that other T-Men do not have supernatural strength...something that I believe was retconned recently...

So I am not so sure that a random FAQ that may or may not be updated regularly is the best method of determining what an answer should be...

The Combat FAQ rules references Rifts Main Book repeatedly.

That FAQ is also a major source of confusion about MDC and Wormwood.

I would say that these FAQs predate RUE.

If you want to stand on it as current cannon, fine.

But it doesn't change anything that I wrote.

If by "random" FAQ you mean a FAQ that Palladium hosts on their website and that directly contradicts your assertions about sdc damage being applied to MD attacks, then sure, it is a random FAQ.

It is a very popular position on this site to state that NPCs don't count whenever they don't support your views (first time that I recall hearing it referred to as a fallacy, though; argumentum ad personam non actoris, perhaps?). It is also popular to ignore evidence from other game lines despite Kevin S's repeated statements of it being a megaversal system.

Going back to the OP's issue, I already addressed that (with an error as I'd forgotten about the juicer rules for lifting). So to restate that, if someone wants a world where a human with PS 35 outlifts someome with robotic PS 35 and someone with PS 40 outlifts non-giant robots or other beings with robotic PS 40 then don't apply the rules to other categories. I'll continue to think that is ludicrous both on it's face and as a reading of the rules. You guys do you.

[shadrak]

To which I would reply that you are referring to books either not part of Rifts, where some things may work slightly differently, or older than the RUE, in which case the RUE rule stands as the new standard.
I would also point out that not all NPCs follow the standard rules, and using them as an example is fallacy.

And none of this talk of damage bonus addresses the OP, which is about lift/carry bonuses, which none of your examples show evidence of possessing, lending further credence to the fact that the life/carry bonus listed under attributes over 30 for Normal P.S. is not to by applied to Robotic or Supernatural P.S.

13eowulf is correct.

Question #72 is also in an FAQ that references the term "SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH" not "augmented strength"...

And question 115 says that other T-Men do not have supernatural strength...something that I believe was retconned recently...

So I am not so sure that a random FAQ that may or may not be updated regularly is the best method of determining what an answer should be...

The Combat FAQ rules references Rifts Main Book repeatedly.

That FAQ is also a major source of confusion about MDC and Wormwood.

I would say that these FAQs predate RUE.

If you want to stand on it as current cannon, fine.

But it doesn't change anything that I wrote.

If by "random" FAQ you mean a FAQ that Palladium hosts on their website and that directly contradicts your assertions about sdc damage being applied to MD attacks, then sure, it is a random FAQ.

It is a very popular position on this site to state that NPCs don't count whenever they don't support your views (first time that I recall hearing it referred to as a fallacy, though; argumentum ad personam non actoris, perhaps?). It is also popular to ignore evidence from other game lines despite Kevin S's repeated statements of it being a megaversal system.

Going back to the OP's issue, I already addressed that (with an error as I'd forgotten about the juicer rules for lifting). So to restate that, if someone wants a world where a human with PS 35 outlifts someome with robotic PS 35 and someone with PS 40 outlifts non-giant robots or other beings with robotic PS 40 then don't apply the rules to other categories. I'll continue to think that is ludicrous both on it's face and as a reading of the rules. You guys do you.

**Rolls Eyes as far as possible**

Warning: Official Warning issued for insulting comments.

The point is, "canon" rules change. Also, if you want to point to the FAQ, the FAQ also stays that different rule sets are different rule sets and when there is a discrepancy use the rule set for the system you are playing in at the time...

So, if you want to say "KEVIN S SAYS ITS MEGAVERSAL! YOU SHOULDN'T IGNORE THE RULES FROM TMNT!!!!" then you are undercutting your own argument that the FAQ has validity...

In sum: These two statements are mutually exclusive-
1. The FAQ is entirely accurate
2. The rules system is universal...

Although, it is possible that both are incorrect statements.

[shadrak]

Oh, and NPCs don't always count...

I mean, when was the last time you had a PC God...or Adult Dragon...or Biowizard...?

[eliakon]

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

RUE p. 286 under Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: "When wielding a hand weapon...supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per supernatural strength." Since that "weapon damage" would include things like vibroblades and magic swords, we have a clear case of sdc being added to an MD attack.

Also, check out question #72

Now, given that we've had a thread locked recently due to incivility, I kindly invite you to adopt a more civil tone in your posts before this one gets locked as well.

While I agree with you on civility, I will point out that question number 72 uses a PS of 28 as an example. Not to nit pick, but the attributes 16-30 bonus chart does not specify Normal PS, it is only the Attributes beyond 30 that does. So it doesnt quite address the issue.

To which I would return to my point that the title of that section does not match up with how we know that rule is applied. There are plenty of other examples in the Palladium system of a PS of any type above 30 giving the sdc damage bonus regardless of type of strength (like in HU, for example). One could look at all the Deities with over 30 supernatural PS that have an SDC damage bonus listed in Conversion book 2, a damage bonus which in nearly every, if not every, case corresponds to what the PS bonus from the continuation of the chart would be.

The better way to simplify this issue would be for them to update the chart to reflect that the PS damage bonus is always SDC damage absent a special rule somewhere like Thor has.

The rule is that it is SDC
the FAQ is pretty clear that it is added as SDC.
There is no rule in any book anywhere that says that the damage bonus is ever treated as MDC.
It is always, and always has been SDC.

[shadrak]

Hmmm...its amazing what you discover when you actually read the canon documents you refer too...

RUE p. 286 under Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: "When wielding a hand weapon...supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per supernatural strength." Since that "weapon damage" would include things like vibroblades and magic swords, we have a clear case of sdc being added to an MD attack.

Also, check out question #72

Now, given that we've had a thread locked recently due to incivility, I kindly invite you to adopt a more civil tone in your posts before this one gets locked as well.

While I agree with you on civility, I will point out that question number 72 uses a PS of 28 as an example. Not to nit pick, but the attributes 16-30 bonus chart does not specify Normal PS, it is only the Attributes beyond 30 that does. So it doesnt quite address the issue.

To which I would return to my point that the title of that section does not match up with how we know that rule is applied. There are plenty of other examples in the Palladium system of a PS of any type above 30 giving the sdc damage bonus regardless of type of strength (like in HU, for example). One could look at all the Deities with over 30 supernatural PS that have an SDC damage bonus listed in Conversion book 2, a damage bonus which in nearly every, if not every, case corresponds to what the PS bonus from the continuation of the chart would be.

The better way to simplify this issue would be for them to update the chart to reflect that the PS damage bonus is always SDC damage absent a special rule somewhere like Thor has.

The rule is that it is SDC
the FAQ is pretty clear that it is added as SDC.
There is no rule in any book anywhere that says that the damage bonus is ever treated as MDC.
It is always, and always has been SDC.

With the exception of Wormwood and Conversion Book 2 (where it is implied that SDC damage bonuses can be applied as MDC damage bonuses), I would say you are correct...

In both of these cases, though, MDC damage bonuses rules to apply MDC physical damage to physical attacks were not codified.

Currently, if a Gargoyle can do 2D6 M.D. with a punch the rules allow the Gargolyle to add the 2D6 to the damage of the M.D. weapon (2D6 sword would be 4D6 MD total)...

At the time of the writing of those books, the rule was not articulated (and even now Wormwood represents CHAOS with regard to the supposed "Megaversal" rules.)...

So, the writers have several instances where you have a 2D6+55 MD weapon that some god or other is capable of inflicting on some poor unfortunate soul...

But those books came out...well, if they were people they would be in college...

So Rifts players have had ample time to figure it out since then, right?

[eliakon]

Currently, if a Gargoyle can do 2D6 M.D. with a punch the rules allow the Gargolyle to add the 2D6 to the damage of the M.D. weapon (2D6 sword would be 4D6 MD total)...

Wait what?
Where is this codified?
I thought that the RUE states they use either their damage or the damage of the weapon. The only exception I am aware of are those oddball weapons that say differently

[dreicunan]

With the exception of Wormwood and Conversion Book 2 (where it is implied that SDC damage bonuses can be applied as MDC damage bonuses), I would say you are correct...

In both of these cases, though, MDC damage bonuses rules to apply MDC physical damage to physical attacks were not codified.

Currently, if a Gargoyle can do 2D6 M.D. with a punch the rules allow the Gargolyle to add the 2D6 to the damage of the M.D. weapon (2D6 sword would be 4D6 MD total)...

At the time of the writing of those books, the rule was not articulated (and even now Wormwood represents CHAOS with regard to the supposed "Megaversal" rules.)...

So, the writers have several instances where you have a 2D6+55 MD weapon that some god or other is capable of inflicting on some poor unfortunate soul...

But those books came out...well, if they were people they would be in college...

So Rifts players have had ample time to figure it out since then, right?

Do you have a quote on those instances from Conversion Book 2 that you feel imply that it was an MDC bonus besides Thor's bonuses due to Megingiord (p. 150), which raises his PS to 70 and "the normal S.D.C. P.S. damage bonus becomes mega-damage!" but only for Thor, not for anyone else (who would just get supernatual PS 60 by wearing it). I'm unaware of other instances and didn't see any others as I skimmed through it, but my memory may be betraying me.

[shadrak]

With the exception of Wormwood and Conversion Book 2 (where it is implied that SDC damage bonuses can be applied as MDC damage bonuses), I would say you are correct...

In both of these cases, though, MDC damage bonuses rules to apply MDC physical damage to physical attacks were not codified.

Currently, if a Gargoyle can do 2D6 M.D. with a punch the rules allow the Gargolyle to add the 2D6 to the damage of the M.D. weapon (2D6 sword would be 4D6 MD total)...

At the time of the writing of those books, the rule was not articulated (and even now Wormwood represents CHAOS with regard to the supposed "Megaversal" rules.)...

So, the writers have several instances where you have a 2D6+55 MD weapon that some god or other is capable of inflicting on some poor unfortunate soul...

But those books came out...well, if they were people they would be in college...

So Rifts players have had ample time to figure it out since then, right?

Do you have a quote on those instances from Conversion Book 2 that you feel imply that it was an MDC bonus besides Thor's bonuses due to Megingiord (p. 150), which raises his PS to 70 and "the normal S.D.C. P.S. damage bonus becomes mega-damage!" but only for Thor, not for anyone else (who would just get supernatual PS 60 by wearing it). I'm unaware of other instances and didn't see any others as I skimmed through it, but my memory may be betraying me.

I'm sorry, it was actually WB 3 Gods that have the extra MD, not the Conversion Book Gods.

In Conversion Book 2 it shows SDC damage added to SDC attacks, not to MD attacks. Conversion Book 2 actually gives damage for many of the gods' atracks...no SDC on the MD attacks...

For adding the MD punch damage to MD attacks, that is relatively more recent...

One of the books since 2006, I think...

I will see where I can find it...might be Juicer uprising.

[shadrak]

See mankiller armor in juicer uprising as one of the first examples if this...

I think it may also be in a European sourcebook on gargoyle use of weapons that do less damage than their SN PS.

[shadrak]

Also super hide armor

[shadrak]

You will also see it in robotics and cyborgs/bionics where an inherent weapon system (say a 1D6 MD vibroblade) gets the bonus of the robot/cyborgs PS., normally 2D6 or 3D6.

[shadrak]

Also see NGR: Gargoyle weapons.


I am not sure where the formal rule is published, but generally, if the damage can logically be added then you can add it...

There are cases where you would not add it, like a psi-sword or light sword or laser sword and certainly not to a ranged weapon...4

If the weapon is an SDC handheld weapon, then the damage is either the MD of a punch or the SDC+sdc bonus, whichever is greater

[eliakon]

Also see NGR: Gargoyle weapons.


I am not sure where the formal rule is published, but generally, if the damage can logically be added then you can add it...

There are cases where you would not add it, like a psi-sword or light sword or laser sword and certainly not to a ranged weapon...4

If the weapon is an SDC handheld weapon, then the damage is either the MD of a punch or the SDC+sdc bonus, whichever is greater

Again, those are specific unique items. We all know that there can be exceptions to the norm in specific situation, in which case that situation will call out the different result.
So if an item says "this item gets the benefit of X" that does not change the rule on X itself, just that the item in question does not use the standard rule.
The formal rule on the subject is on page 286 of RUE

"Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such a swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater."

That seems to be pretty cut and dried
It would take a specific rule change in a later book to alter that.
So I am curious if there is such an alteration somehwere or not, and if so then where it is

[shadrak]

Also see NGR: Gargoyle weapons.


I am not sure where the formal rule is published, but generally, if the damage can logically be added then you can add it...

There are cases where you would not add it, like a psi-sword or light sword or laser sword and certainly not to a ranged weapon...4

If the weapon is an SDC handheld weapon, then the damage is either the MD of a punch or the SDC+sdc bonus, whichever is greater

Again, those are specific unique items. We all know that there can be exceptions to the norm in specific situation, in which case that situation will call out the different result.
So if an item says "this item gets the benefit of X" that does not change the rule on X itself, just that the item in question does not use the standard rule.
The formal rule on the subject is on page 286 of RUE

"Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such a swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater."

That seems to be pretty cut and dried
It would take a specific rule change in a later book to alter that.
So I am curious if there is such an alteration somehwere or not, and if so then where it is

I would say it is cut and dry of not for 2 things:
1. Context
2. Failure to address contradictions in canon material.

Context: the next paragraph talks about SDC weapons and how to apply damage to them when they are used in MD attacks...so, a rational person would connect the dots.

Failure to address conflocts: I would dispute your assertion that there is something special about a gargoyle' s MD sword or a juicers armor spike or a borg's tooth that makes it special.

The are all simply MD metal.

But, if you want to play that it doesn't stack, fine...

Let your 20' gargoyle with SN PS do less damage with a metal, two handed sword than he can do with brass knuckles

[shadrak]

Again, I am aware of page 286 and I summarized the text above so it was connected to its context...

I invite you to read and repost the section on Mega damage strength and weapons in its entirety.

[eliakon]

Also see NGR: Gargoyle weapons.


I am not sure where the formal rule is published, but generally, if the damage can logically be added then you can add it...

There are cases where you would not add it, like a psi-sword or light sword or laser sword and certainly not to a ranged weapon...4

If the weapon is an SDC handheld weapon, then the damage is either the MD of a punch or the SDC+sdc bonus, whichever is greater

Again, those are specific unique items. We all know that there can be exceptions to the norm in specific situation, in which case that situation will call out the different result.
So if an item says "this item gets the benefit of X" that does not change the rule on X itself, just that the item in question does not use the standard rule.
The formal rule on the subject is on page 286 of RUE

"Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such a swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater."

That seems to be pretty cut and dried
It would take a specific rule change in a later book to alter that.
So I am curious if there is such an alteration somehwere or not, and if so then where it is

I would say it is cut and dry of not for 2 things:
1. Context
2. Failure to address contradictions in canon material.

Context: the next paragraph talks about SDC weapons and how to apply damage to them when they are used in MD attacks...so, a rational person would connect the dots.

Failure to address conflocts: I would dispute your assertion that there is something special about a gargoyle' s MD sword or a juicers armor spike or a borg's tooth that makes it special.

The are all simply MD metal.

But, if you want to play that it doesn't stack, fine...

Let your 20' gargoyle with SN PS do less damage with a metal, two handed sword than he can do with brass knuckles

1) yes SD weapons when used in MD attacks take damage. That does not conflict. After all you are doing your punch damage with the weapon. However, they do NOT say "SD weapons" they say "hand weapons" that means... all hand weapons. Even MD ones.

2) There has to be something special about them... because their stats violate the rules.

3) a Gargoyle does the same damage. You do not do the *lesser* of the weapon or punch you do the *greater* of the two.
Simply put... it doesnt matter if you swing a wood club or a MD steel one... you still do the same amount of damage because you hit them with the same strength.
Now yes, some weapons will get an exception to policy as it were... but in general the rule is that they do not stack.
I understand that lots of GMs wish to change that and it is a fairly common *houserule* but it is not the *actual* rule

[shadrak]

Also see NGR: Gargoyle weapons.


I am not sure where the formal rule is published, but generally, if the damage can logically be added then you can add it...

There are cases where you would not add it, like a psi-sword or light sword or laser sword and certainly not to a ranged weapon...4

If the weapon is an SDC handheld weapon, then the damage is either the MD of a punch or the SDC+sdc bonus, whichever is greater

Again, those are specific unique items. We all know that there can be exceptions to the norm in specific situation, in which case that situation will call out the different result.
So if an item says "this item gets the benefit of X" that does not change the rule on X itself, just that the item in question does not use the standard rule.
The formal rule on the subject is on page 286 of RUE

"Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such a swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater."

That seems to be pretty cut and dried
It would take a specific rule change in a later book to alter that.
So I am curious if there is such an alteration somehwere or not, and if so then where it is

I would say it is cut and dry of not for 2 things:
1. Context
2. Failure to address contradictions in canon material.

Context: the next paragraph talks about SDC weapons and how to apply damage to them when they are used in MD attacks...so, a rational person would connect the dots.

Failure to address conflocts: I would dispute your assertion that there is something special about a gargoyle' s MD sword or a juicers armor spike or a borg's tooth that makes it special.

The are all simply MD metal.

But, if you want to play that it doesn't stack, fine...

Let your 20' gargoyle with SN PS do less damage with a metal, two handed sword than he can do with brass knuckles

1) yes SD weapons when used in MD attacks take damage. That does not conflict. After all you are doing your punch damage with the weapon. However, they do NOT say "SD weapons" they say "hand weapons" that means... all hand weapons. Even MD ones.

2) There has to be something special about them... because their stats violate the rules.

3) a Gargoyle does the same damage. You do not do the *lesser* of the weapon or punch you do the *greater* of the two.
Simply put... it doesnt matter if you swing a wood club or a MD steel one... you still do the same amount of damage because you hit them with the same strength.
Now yes, some weapons will get an exception to policy as it were... but in general the rule is that they do not stack.
I understand that lots of GMs wish to change that and it is a fairly common *houserule* but it is not the *actual* rule

Yes, those spikes on that mankiller armor MUST be special! I mean, they are made by Northern Gun out of their mystical metal.

LOL...

They are ONLY special because the particular Worldbook identifies them as increasing damage...the magic is in the fact that they are in one Worldbook and not another...

It is an editorial error (just as is the fact that the writers of RUE overlooked page 286 - probably because the only MD hand weapon in the book is a vibrosword/vibroknife).

[shadrak]

I mean, my ultimate edition doesn't say 'Borgs have robotic strength...

So, maybe that means they use the normal strength charts?

[shadrak]

Also see NGR: Gargoyle weapons.


I am not sure where the formal rule is published, but generally, if the damage can logically be added then you can add it...

There are cases where you would not add it, like a psi-sword or light sword or laser sword and certainly not to a ranged weapon...4

If the weapon is an SDC handheld weapon, then the damage is either the MD of a punch or the SDC+sdc bonus, whichever is greater

Again, those are specific unique items. We all know that there can be exceptions to the norm in specific situation, in which case that situation will call out the different result.
So if an item says "this item gets the benefit of X" that does not change the rule on X itself, just that the item in question does not use the standard rule.
The formal rule on the subject is on page 286 of RUE

"Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such a swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater."

That seems to be pretty cut and dried
It would take a specific rule change in a later book to alter that.
So I am curious if there is such an alteration somehwere or not, and if so then where it is

I would say it is cut and dry of not for 2 things:
1. Context
2. Failure to address contradictions in canon material.

Context: the next paragraph talks about SDC weapons and how to apply damage to them when they are used in MD attacks...so, a rational person would connect the dots.

Failure to address conflocts: I would dispute your assertion that there is something special about a gargoyle' s MD sword or a juicers armor spike or a borg's tooth that makes it special.

The are all simply MD metal.

But, if you want to play that it doesn't stack, fine...

Let your 20' gargoyle with SN PS do less damage with a metal, two handed sword than he can do with brass knuckles

1) yes SD weapons when used in MD attacks take damage. That does not conflict. After all you are doing your punch damage with the weapon. However, they do NOT say "SD weapons" they say "hand weapons" that means... all hand weapons. Even MD ones.

2) There has to be something special about them... because their stats violate the rules.

3) a Gargoyle does the same damage. You do not do the *lesser* of the weapon or punch you do the *greater* of the two.
Simply put... it doesnt matter if you swing a wood club or a MD steel one... you still do the same amount of damage because you hit them with the same strength.
Now yes, some weapons will get an exception to policy as it were... but in general the rule is that they do not stack.
I understand that lots of GMs wish to change that and it is a fairly common *houserule* but it is not the *actual* rule

Do MD Weapons take damage when used in hand attacks?

If so, then your assertion is consistent...

If not, then that MDC metal sword that does 1D8 SDC damage is going to break when someone inflicts 25 MD with it. So that guy with SN PS 40 will break it for sure!

And if that is the rule, then perhaps we should just start running Xiticix campaigns where we can harvest their sweet weapons that are better than all the other weapons on Rifts Earth...since "the weapon M.D. is added to the character's supernatural punching damage, described under each R.C.C. entry. If used by an ordinary human, D-Bee, Headhunter or basic cyborg then only use the weapon's M.D. (because the character normally inflicts only S.D.C. damage)."

Sidenote: If the developers intended your interpretation, then it is a MASSIVE change from the rule asserted in 2000, 2002, and 2004...and it has major implications for a lot of books written before and a few written after RUE, including books written in this "Megaversal System".

In the end, either rule is allowable (see page 294 of the great and powerful RUE that has fewer inconsistencies and contradictions than the Bible) and, if you are running a dimensional outbreak campaign, adding SN PS damage to the 0 MD, 1D6 MD, and 2D6 MD clubs and swords the Demons and Deevils are using makes them more than just damage sponges for the Coalition troopers they are up against.

[shadrak]

And I would venture to guess if it's an issue for you and your game, you're probably play one of those games where every PC has Supernatural strength and a greater rune sword that does 1D6x10 damage and where most of the competition is mortal.

In that case, it makes a lot of sense not to add additional damage since they are so overpowered in the first place.

In games where the player characters are mortal with modern weapons, including melee weapons that do 3D6 and 4D6 MD, it makes sense to boost an Alu's damage from 1D6 or 2D6 to 3D6 or 4D6 with an MDC sword.

Most of my environments I am building, most of the world uses Rifts Main Book/Ultimate Edition-level items and higher powered items are more rare. Not everyone is running around with Naruni, and not everyone is even running around with a C-27 Plasma Cannon (even though it is obsolete).

Many of my non-combatants are unarmed or have SDC weapons. Many of the common enemies in my games have makeshift armor and use the most basic MDC weapons (from SDC explosive bullets/Ramjet rounds to SDC machineguns souped up to do 1D4 damage).

In this environment, where my PCs have a C-29 or an NG-LP, or a TW Lightsword, I will introduce an NPC borg with a vibrosword that does 2D4 MD (punch) + 2D6 MD (vibrosword)...

This gives a slightly greater challenge to the PCs without suddenly giving them access to a weapon that becomes even more overpowering.


And, again, it is more consistent an interpretation than the RUE (especially since it was the rule prior to RUE and, as this thread shows, the intent and meaning of RUE is in dispute).

[eliakon]

Yes, those spikes on that mankiller armor MUST be special! I mean, they are made by Northern Gun out of their mystical metal.

LOL...

They are ONLY special because the particular Worldbook identifies them as increasing damage...the magic is in the fact that they are in one Worldbook and not another...

It is an editorial error (just as is the fact that the writers of RUE overlooked page 286 - probably because the only MD hand weapon in the book is a vibrosword/vibroknife).

Correct, they likely are an editorial error. But as written they have a different game stat than the rules. We can speculate on why… but in the end the answer is, like so many of the oddities in Rifts “because the writers said so”

Do MD Weapons take damage when used in hand attacks?

The sentence is an optional rule about normal weapons.

If so, then your assertion is consistent...

No, that is why there is a period between the two sentences.
Subject #1 period Subject #2
They are different sentences covering different, though related (as in both PS) things.

If not, then that MDC metal sword that does 1D8 SDC damage is going to break when someone inflicts 25 MD with it. So that guy with SN PS 40 will break it for sure!

Again... that is an imaginary strawman
The text covers normal weapons.
Ergo... it does *not* cover non-normal ones, master work swords are less tough than MDC materials for example.

And if that is the rule, then perhaps we should just start running Xiticix campaigns where we can harvest their sweet weapons that are better than all the other weapons on Rifts Earth...since "the weapon M.D. is added to the character's supernatural punching damage, described under each R.C.C. entry. If used by an ordinary human, D-Bee, Headhunter or basic cyborg then only use the weapon's M.D. (because the character normally inflicts only S.D.C. damage)."

That is indeed a popular thing for money minded gamers to do.

Sidenote: If the developers intended your interpretation, then it is a MASSIVE change from the rule asserted in 2000, 2002, and 2004...and it has major implications for a lot of books written before and a few written after RUE, including books written in this "Megaversal System".

It is what they intended when they published RUE.
What they had before is of no relevance. They changed many things when they went to RUE. Changing one more rule is... well it is why RUE is a new edition.

In the end, either rule is allowable (see page 294 of the great and powerful RUE that has fewer inconsistencies and contradictions than the Bible) and, if you are running a dimensional outbreak campaign, adding SN PS damage to the 0 MD, 1D6 MD, and 2D6 MD clubs and swords the Demons and Deevils are using makes them more than just damage sponges for the Coalition troopers they are up against.

A GM can Rule Zero the strength rules however they see fit sure.
But the canon rule is the one in the RUE book. Simply desiring a differnt outcome does not change the actual, official rule.

And I would venture to guess if it's an issue for you and your game, you're probably play one of those games where every PC has Supernatural strength and a greater rune sword that does 1D6x10 damage and where most of the competition is mortal.

You would venture wrongly then.

In that case, it makes a lot of sense not to add additional damage since they are so overpowered in the first place.

Or you know… because it’s the rules.

In games where the player characters are mortal with modern weapons, including melee weapons that do 3D6 and 4D6 MD, it makes sense to boost an Alu's damage from 1D6 or 2D6 to 3D6 or 4D6 with an MDC sword.

Sure, that is what Rule Zero is for. To change the rules to fit the desired goals of that game.

Most of my environments I am building, most of the world uses Rifts Main Book/Ultimate Edition-level items and higher powered items are more rare. Not everyone is running around with Naruni, and not everyone is even running around with a C-27 Plasma Cannon (even though it is obsolete).

Many of my non-combatants are unarmed or have SDC weapons. Many of the common enemies in my games have makeshift armor and use the most basic MDC weapons (from SDC explosive bullets/Ramjet rounds to SDC machineguns souped up to do 1D4 damage).

In this environment, where my PCs have a C-29 or an NG-LP, or a TW Lightsword, I will introduce an NPC borg with a vibrosword that does 2D4 MD (punch) + 2D6 MD (vibrosword)...

This gives a slightly greater challenge to the PCs without suddenly giving them access to a weapon that becomes even more overpowering.


And, again, it is more consistent an interpretation than the RUE (especially since it was the rule prior to RUE and, as this thread shows, the intent and meaning of RUE is in dispute).

Then by all means. Rule Zero the rules to fit how you wish it to be run.
But I have yet to see any convincing evidence that this was the rule, ever. And in RUE it is explicitly not the rule.
There is no ‘dispute’ about the RUE. The rule is printed in black and white. Now if people wish to use that printed rule is a different matter than if the rule exists.

[shadrak]

Yes, those spikes on that mankiller armor MUST be special! I mean, they are made by Northern Gun out of their mystical metal.

LOL...

They are ONLY special because the particular Worldbook identifies them as increasing damage...the magic is in the fact that they are in one Worldbook and not another...

It is an editorial error (just as is the fact that the writers of RUE overlooked page 286 - probably because the only MD hand weapon in the book is a vibrosword/vibroknife).

Correct, they likely are an editorial error. But as written they have a different game stat than the rules. We can speculate on why… but in the end the answer is, like so many of the oddities in Rifts “because the writers said so”

Do MD Weapons take damage when used in hand attacks?

The sentence is an optional rule about normal weapons.

If so, then your assertion is consistent...

No, that is why there is a period between the two sentences.
Subject #1 period Subject #2
They are different sentences covering different, though related (as in both PS) things.

If not, then that MDC metal sword that does 1D8 SDC damage is going to break when someone inflicts 25 MD with it. So that guy with SN PS 40 will break it for sure!

Again... that is an imaginary strawman
The text covers normal weapons.
Ergo... it does *not* cover non-normal ones, master work swords are less tough than MDC materials for example.

And if that is the rule, then perhaps we should just start running Xiticix campaigns where we can harvest their sweet weapons that are better than all the other weapons on Rifts Earth...since "the weapon M.D. is added to the character's supernatural punching damage, described under each R.C.C. entry. If used by an ordinary human, D-Bee, Headhunter or basic cyborg then only use the weapon's M.D. (because the character normally inflicts only S.D.C. damage)."

That is indeed a popular thing for money minded gamers to do.

Sidenote: If the developers intended your interpretation, then it is a MASSIVE change from the rule asserted in 2000, 2002, and 2004...and it has major implications for a lot of books written before and a few written after RUE, including books written in this "Megaversal System".

It is what they intended when they published RUE.
What they had before is of no relevance. They changed many things when they went to RUE. Changing one more rule is... well it is why RUE is a new edition.

In the end, either rule is allowable (see page 294 of the great and powerful RUE that has fewer inconsistencies and contradictions than the Bible) and, if you are running a dimensional outbreak campaign, adding SN PS damage to the 0 MD, 1D6 MD, and 2D6 MD clubs and swords the Demons and Deevils are using makes them more than just damage sponges for the Coalition troopers they are up against.

A GM can Rule Zero the strength rules however they see fit sure.
But the canon rule is the one in the RUE book. Simply desiring a differnt outcome does not change the actual, official rule.

And I would venture to guess if it's an issue for you and your game, you're probably play one of those games where every PC has Supernatural strength and a greater rune sword that does 1D6x10 damage and where most of the competition is mortal.

You would venture wrongly then.

In that case, it makes a lot of sense not to add additional damage since they are so overpowered in the first place.

Or you know… because it’s the rules.

In games where the player characters are mortal with modern weapons, including melee weapons that do 3D6 and 4D6 MD, it makes sense to boost an Alu's damage from 1D6 or 2D6 to 3D6 or 4D6 with an MDC sword.

Sure, that is what Rule Zero is for. To change the rules to fit the desired goals of that game.

Most of my environments I am building, most of the world uses Rifts Main Book/Ultimate Edition-level items and higher powered items are more rare. Not everyone is running around with Naruni, and not everyone is even running around with a C-27 Plasma Cannon (even though it is obsolete).

Many of my non-combatants are unarmed or have SDC weapons. Many of the common enemies in my games have makeshift armor and use the most basic MDC weapons (from SDC explosive bullets/Ramjet rounds to SDC machineguns souped up to do 1D4 damage).

In this environment, where my PCs have a C-29 or an NG-LP, or a TW Lightsword, I will introduce an NPC borg with a vibrosword that does 2D4 MD (punch) + 2D6 MD (vibrosword)...

This gives a slightly greater challenge to the PCs without suddenly giving them access to a weapon that becomes even more overpowering.


And, again, it is more consistent an interpretation than the RUE (especially since it was the rule prior to RUE and, as this thread shows, the intent and meaning of RUE is in dispute).

Then by all means. Rule Zero the rules to fit how you wish it to be run.
But I have yet to see any convincing evidence that this was the rule, ever. And in RUE it is explicitly not the rule.
There is no ‘dispute’ about the RUE. The rule is printed in black and white. Now if people wish to use that printed rule is a different matter than if the rule exists.

OMG! You are testing my patience and about to **** me dfq off!

Rifter 11, Official Rules, page 48

[shadrak]

Let me get that for you...since you must have started playing after RUE and probably don't buy Rifter (and yes, while Rifter features "optional material", some articles are official and this one comes from the official FAQ from Rodney Scott at Palladium Books as in - at the time - canon and official:)

Do I add my P.S. damage bonus to M.D. melee weapon attacks? Do I add my P.S. damage bonus if I have supernatural strength?

The PS damage bonus is ALWAYS and SDC damage bonus and is not added to MD melee weapon attacks [emphasis mine].

HOWEVER [emphasis mine] if the character possesses SUPERNATURAL STRENGTH OR ROBOTIC STRENGTH, the normal punch damage, if MD, cn be added to the damage inflicted with a mega-damage melee weapon. Again, PS damage bonuses [my note, as in the extended scale +1 damage for points above 30 and 15 points at 30] do not apply to this.

For example, if you could do a 3D6 MD punch and were using a weapon that did 1D6 MD, you would inflict 4D6 MD.

[shadrak]

And I would refer you to page 294 of your oh-so-holy RUE...

Read it well...there is a sentence that reference you

Warning: If you can't discuss the subject without attacking others then don't post. Mack