Anyone buy a copy of Antarctica yet?

[Zer0 Kay]

Has anyone purchased a copy of Antarctica yet? I'm trying to write several rifter articles for AK and hoping it drives interest in a world book but one of my ideas seems to be in Antarctica and I need to find out if it is different or if I have to axe it.

[kaid]

I got my copy and finished reading it. I highly recommend picking it up its very well fleshed out similar to sovietski raw preview where mostly just needs editing and art.

[Willy Elektrix]

I didn't realize this was coming out! Awrsome! I won't buy the preview version, but I am eager for the finished book.

[Axelmania]

I'm going to hazard a guess that this reprints some of the ice spells from Library of Bletherad?

[kaid]

I'm going to hazard a guess that this reprints some of the ice spells from Library of Bletherad?

I have not read my library of bletherad book in ages so I don't recall if they are reprints. I don't want to spoil anything but https://youtu.be/qfL8gItXoDA

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm going to hazard a guess that this reprints some of the ice spells from Library of Bletherad?

I have not read my library of bletherad book in ages so I don't recall if they are reprints. I don't want to spoil anything but https://youtu.be/qfL8gItXoDA

Dude... that's worse than a Rick Roll.

[kaid]

Cruel but not inaccurate

[Killer Cyborg]

Has anyone purchased a copy of Antarctica yet? I'm trying to write several rifter articles for AK and hoping it drives interest in a world book but one of my ideas seems to be in Antarctica and I need to find out if it is different or if I have to axe it.

Haven't bought it.
I'm a bit behind on books anyway, but this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

[The Beast]

Has anyone purchased a copy of Antarctica yet? I'm trying to write several rifter articles for AK and hoping it drives interest in a world book but one of my ideas seems to be in Antarctica and I need to find out if it is different or if I have to axe it.

Haven't bought it.
I'm a bit behind on books anyway, but this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

Come on. You know you want to read about the secretly hidden tropical rainforest with dinosaurs in it that's down there.

[kaid]

Has anyone purchased a copy of Antarctica yet? I'm trying to write several rifter articles for AK and hoping it drives interest in a world book but one of my ideas seems to be in Antarctica and I need to find out if it is different or if I have to axe it.

Haven't bought it.
I'm a bit behind on books anyway, but this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

Come on. You know you want to read about the secretly hidden tropical rainforest with dinosaurs in it that's down there.

Spoiler alert no rain forests.

[Proseksword]

.....this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

On the other hand, I LOVE new settings, because I feel like traveling across an endless Megaverse via RIFTs is, well, the focus of the game!

What's there? Is it just icy wilderness full of ice creatures and ice magic, or are there any settlements of note?

[kaid]

.....this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

On the other hand, I LOVE new settings, because I feel like traveling across an endless Megaverse via RIFTs is, well, the focus of the game!

What's there? Is it just icy wilderness full of ice creatures and ice magic, or are there any settlements of note?

Not to give to much away but much of it is still icy wilderness but with nexus opening since the cataclysm for all the DBees who came in and died off shortly there after there were some that opened to worlds with cold adapted life forms and so there are areas that have vegetation and support an ecosystem but a very alien one. I don't want to give to much away but there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities. The upside in living in an ice blasted wilderness is a lot of the stuff other parts of world had to deal with just could not survive the conditions in antarctica long enough to be a problem. There is a front for the minion war that is very interesting and the splugorth are gonna splugorth.

[Killer Cyborg]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

[Blue_Lion]

No interest in it. It would be unlikely to be used if I purchased it.

[Proseksword]

.....this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

On the other hand, I LOVE new settings, because I feel like traveling across an endless Megaverse via RIFTs is, well, the focus of the game!

What's there? Is it just icy wilderness full of ice creatures and ice magic, or are there any settlements of note?

Not to give to much away but much of it is still icy wilderness but with nexus opening since the cataclysm for all the DBees who came in and died off shortly there after there were some that opened to worlds with cold adapted life forms and so there are areas that have vegetation and support an ecosystem but a very alien one. I don't want to give to much away but there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities. The upside in living in an ice blasted wilderness is a lot of the stuff other parts of world had to deal with just could not survive the conditions in antarctica long enough to be a problem. There is a front for the minion war that is very interesting and the splugorth are gonna splugorth.

Nice snapshot, thanks!

[The Beast]

No interest in it. It would be unlikely to be used if I purchased it.

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

These two pretty much sum up my feelings on the book.

[kaid]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

[kaid]

One last tid bit is there is a magical/tw city built on the "sunny" shores of lake Vostok.

[glitterboy2098]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

with no reason to send more than that down (the science can be done quite well remotely after all, and there is zero reason to colonize pre-rifts.) it is highly unlikely those numbers would change much.
so the odds of there being even one station with sufficient numbers to support a breeding population is pretty darn low. supporting a population that is not heavily inbred is going to be nearly impossible.

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

[Hotrod]

Is it March of the Penguins... with MDC?

[Zer0 Kay]

Has anyone purchased a copy of Antarctica yet? I'm trying to write several rifter articles for AK and hoping it drives interest in a world book but one of my ideas seems to be in Antarctica and I need to find out if it is different or if I have to axe it.

Haven't bought it.
I'm a bit behind on books anyway, but this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

Lol... So your going to hate my Alyeska Book then right? IIRC you said you hate how new books keep adding more people to the post apocalypse. I think you even said my intended <5,000 remaining human population was too much. There is also over a million elementals, four "ancient" dragons and 10,000 Urayuli. But come on that human population is dinky compared to other books... wonder what the population of those little science bases in Antarctica grew to.

[Zer0 Kay]

.....this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

On the other hand, I LOVE new settings, because I feel like traveling across an endless Megaverse via RIFTs is, well, the focus of the game!

What's there? Is it just icy wilderness full of ice creatures and ice magic, or are there any settlements of note?

And Ice Cows that make... No not ice cream jeez... they make shakes because of the earthquakes.

[Zer0 Kay]

Is it March of the Penguins... with MDC?

Hey, don't joke about them. Emperor Penguins are mean SOBs.

[Killer Cyborg]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

There are plenty of reasons one could make up in order to explain why there might be a population there.
But I can't think of any reasons why one should.

[Killer Cyborg]

.....this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

On the other hand, I LOVE new settings, because I feel like traveling across an endless Megaverse via RIFTs is, well, the focus of the game!

I agree: travelling across an endless Megaverse via Rifts should be the focus of the game.
But this isn't that.
This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

New settings are great.
Dimensional travel is great.
If this was "World Book 45: Ice Planet Zebra," I'd be good with it. I'd be intrigued, and I'd be scrounging for money to buy it.
But it's not that.
It's yet another "in a literally infinite multiverse, let's explore places on the same old planet, particularly ones that you've never really cared about."

(Yes, some people have occasionally cared about Antarctica. I just have no idea why. Especially in the context of a game where it would be more fun and make more sense to create an entirely new world or dimension to explore.)

(Bah Humbug! )

[Zer0 Kay]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

with no reason to send more than that down (the science can be done quite well remotely after all, and there is zero reason to colonize pre-rifts.) it is highly unlikely those numbers would change much.
so the odds of there being even one station with sufficient numbers to support a breeding population is pretty darn low. supporting a population that is not heavily inbred is going to be nearly impossible.

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

According to some research papers like this "only The chances of success, according to Heritage, do not reach 100 percent until the initial crew has 98 settlers, or 49 breeding pairs. “We can then conclude that, under the parameters used for those simulations, a minimum crew of 98 settlers is needed for a 6,300-year multi-generational space journey towards Proxima Centauri b,” say Marin and Beluffi." or this one that says "A initial amount of 25 breeding pairs of settlers drives the mission towards extinction in 50 +/- 15% of cases if we completely forbid inbreeding. Under the set of parameters described in this publication, we find that a minimum crew of 98 people is necessary ensure a 100% success rate for a 6300-year space travel towards the closest telluric exoplanet known so far." and I'm pretty sure with a 10% average female infertility and 5% male infertility and a very low infant mortality rate of .061% (with modern 2010s science) that not just 49 breeding pairs but 397 breeding pairs who can then switch males to a new set of 397 nine time in as many years during their 15 years of breeding (Figuring that the average female researcher is maybe 25 at the start and has a good 15 years of fertility AND peak birth survival rates that) and after those first 9 years they can go back and offset by one so the females throughout their 15 years of fertility never have a child by the same male. The next generation could even start child birth earlier and as gross as it may be some could couple with the original male breeding stalk who were not their fathers, further diversifying the gene pool. Of course they'd also need to have the females move from base to base.

All that to say if 98 people can 100% guarantee a 6300 year mission then 397 with alternate partners can guarantee genetic viability for a much longer time, maybe even more than 20,000 years. It isn't an issue of genetic viability. The issue would be the climate, adapting to larger populations with food and housing and other necessities. It is more likely that with intentional breeding to ensure genetic diversity that the survivors would soon run out of space and maybe have to start digging into the ice and maybe that should have opened up some of those rifts that were under the ice. Bom bom bom
But. There also isn't a shortage of food, especially with creatures coming in. It would be more likely though that the bases would move closer to the shore and/or congregate into a single base.

As far as flying in supplies... I don't remember the Eskimo, Inuit, Yupik or Aleut living in AK and making Igloos worry about not having wood and steel or plastics. Granted they have moss, in some cases stone but they had very little land meat and had a large portion of their diet derived from the sea. Life in the Antarctic would be hard, not impossible.

All of that said... the first objective of most of the scientist would have likely been how to get out of the Antarctic and most would likely try to go home. One usually doesn't think "Oh crap this is happening here it must be worse where I came from.", normally one thinks "It sucks here. I wish I could go back home." Associating the familiarity of home with safety.

[Zer0 Kay]

.....this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

On the other hand, I LOVE new settings, because I feel like traveling across an endless Megaverse via RIFTs is, well, the focus of the game!

I agree: travelling across an endless Megaverse via Rifts should be the focus of the game.
But this isn't that.
This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

New settings are great.
Dimensional travel is great.
If this was "World Book 45: Ice Planet Zebra," I'd be good with it. I'd be intrigued, and I'd be scrounging for money to buy it.
But it's not that.
It's yet another "in a literally infinite multiverse, let's explore places on the same old planet, particularly ones that you've never really cared about."

(Yes, some people have occasionally cared about Antarctica. I just have no idea why. Especially in the context of a game where it would be more fun and make more sense to create an entirely new world or dimension to explore.)

(Bah Humbug! )

Hmm Maybe the real Antarctica of this Earth is gone and it is the Antarctica from a parallel universe that has poked through the void?

[Zer0 Kay]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

There are plenty of reasons one could make up in order to explain why there might be a population there.
But I can't think of any reasons why one should.

You'd be happy if Rifts Earth was just the CS and Atlantis and maybe the vampires wouldn't you?

Each alternate reality only has three of the world books that survived in it roll for world books. Problem fixed.

[Blue_Lion]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

There are plenty of reasons one could make up in order to explain why there might be a population there.
But I can't think of any reasons why one should.

You'd be happy if Rifts Earth was just the CS and Atlantis and maybe the vampires wouldn't you?

Each alternate reality only has three of the world books that survived in it roll for world books. Problem fixed.

Nope because many of the books are made to work together. The CS alone has 7 books but instead of giving us Chi town we get world book X that does not play with the main location. I do not have a problem with books for the main area NA because they can be used together, but I have never used most the special area books such as South America, China, Russia, Austrilia ect. If I am going to leave the main setting of NA why do a highly focused book on the some part of an apocolipitic world instead of a new world. After all they try to set up these special areas as not having regular interaction with the main setting. So just make it a new world instead of some place me and my PC do not want to go on earth to begin with then if that new world is popular it can get more books to flesh it out like phase world. How about a new book to flesh out worm wood, or Chi town. I prefer books that work together than one of special arm pits of the apocalypse books.

Lets face it with rifts it is easer to go to a new world than travel from NA to japan. And there is a core OCC built around dimension hopping so that instead of a book that is not likely to be used by a group not made it.

[Killer Cyborg]

There are plenty of reasons one could make up in order to explain why there might be a population there.
But I can't think of any reasons why one should.

You'd be happy if Rifts Earth was just the CS and Atlantis and maybe the vampires wouldn't you?

I'd be happy if the map that Erin Tarn (aka the in-setting voice of Kevin Siembieda) had laid out in the RMB had been stuck to.
Nothing happening in Japan.
Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.
But we get fleshed out information on the places mentioned in the RMB. Chi-Town, for example, could have a book for each Level or two, and I wouldn't gripe much. Shaedo could have a book, and that'd be cool. Would have been nice to have a good Tolkeen book BEFORE it was destroyed. Would still be great to have a Lazlo book.
Places adjacent to North America, or that might be able to be reasonably traveled to from North America without a Rift, AND that have built-in party motivations to visit? Those are cool too.
To an extent.

Not necessarily as cool as books about other dimensions, but still cool.

But books that answer the lukewarm question of "Hey, ever wonder what's happening in the Rifts Earth version of the most unpopulated wastelands of modern times?"
That's NOT gonna grab me.
I need some kind of reason to care.

[Hotrod]

People surviving in Antarctica makes more sense than people surviving in orbit and on the Moon. I just don't want to see any MDC penguins or mutant penguins.

Also, like KC said, the book needs to have a "so what" behind it that makes it interesting. Many regions of Rifts Earth are so isolated that they might as well be another dimension. When the powers present in a region have no connections or relations with the rest of the world, I see that as a serious strike against that book. Japan, Australia, and China are examples of this.

[ShadowLogan]

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

So in 80 years (from today), those numbers couldn't increase and/or the gender ratios change?

I agree there probably isn't much reason to increase the population numbers currently, but that doesn't mean some reasonable "mcguffin" couldn't be introduced to explain the population (like mineral wealth, "low cost space program testing", etc). (I don't have the preview book so I am not going to speculate to heavily, though I am interested in getting the final product).

Gender ratio would be harder to justify it remaining static IMHO, at least if GA-Earth is more progressive (and not regressive) with women in science. That might allow the ratio to be more favorable, well short of women taking multiple male breeding partners or other approaches (influx of refuges, cloning, genetic engineering, etc).

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

This assumes they stay focused on cutting edge technology and don't resort to magic/psionic development or using some more "low tech" or have access to some of the tech the space stations have (if they can survive 300 years then its possible Antarctica bases could IMHO) or the New Navy (Tico's support bases).

This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

And of those 15 Dimension Books, we actually only have what 3 locales (Wormwood, Skrapers, Phaseworld, can add +1 with Manhunter maybe). Chaos Earth and other separate lines can also count as Dimension Books, but very few are MDC and don't run into the need to convert.

As Blue_Lion suggested (basically) One way to use those World Books (okay maybe not ALL, but some) would be to treat them as Dimension Books for Alternate Earths specific to that region. That would allow Tarn to be correct, and allowing new places on Earth to be explored from a Rifts perspective if you don't want them to be the same world.

Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.

Here is the question though. Why would these other places look so "open" (or peaceful, uneventful, etc) compared to NA/main-setting? It seems a bit egotistical to think that NA would come out the best from the GC without a huge mcguffin.

It would seem to defy credibility if Rifts North America (and Europe) are the centers of human survival. Because if humans aren't the dominants in Asian/Africa/SA/Austrilia, then it leaves room for the non-humans to rise to prominence (like at Atlantis), and would probably draw in some other "players" that WB2 mentions in passing (IIRC).

Now I do agree that some World Books probably should be Dimension Books (and can certainly be used as such like WB6-9) instead of World Books, but then some World Books should also probably really be Source Books (DBoNA, CWC, JU, maybe LS). I would expect an Antarctica focused book to be one of the less a human-centric locations (like Atlantis), but somehow I don't think that will happen.

People surviving in Antarctica makes more sense than people surviving in orbit and on the Moon. I just don't want to see any MDC penguins or mutant penguins.

It really depends on how self-sufficient those in space actually where by the time of the GC. Launching material into space is expensive, so if those facilities can be made to be self-sufficient as much as possible they can become more economical and likely to survive. Plus the population/size of the stations themselves I think almost requires them to have been self-sufficient.

Humans in Antarctica could always attempt to cross the ocean back to Africa/Australia/South America or even home (Europe, Asia, North America). We know some people attempted the trip (IIRC it was mentioned in Japan). For the Spacers, it is a bit more difficult (adapted biology, available ships, etc) to see that happening or even being a viable option.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

There are plenty of reasons one could make up in order to explain why there might be a population there.
But I can't think of any reasons why one should.

You'd be happy if Rifts Earth was just the CS and Atlantis and maybe the vampires wouldn't you?

Each alternate reality only has three of the world books that survived in it roll for world books. Problem fixed.

Nope because many of the books are made to work together. The CS alone has 7 books but instead of giving us Chi town we get world book X that does not play with the main location. I do not have a problem with books for the main area NA because they can be used together, but I have never used most the special area books such as South America, China, Russia, Austrilia ect. If I am going to leave the main setting of NA why do a highly focused book on the some part of an apocolipitic world instead of a new world. After all they try to set up these special areas as not having regular interaction with the main setting. So just make it a new world instead of some place me and my PC do not want to go on earth to begin with then if that new world is popular it can get more books to flesh it out like phase world. How about a new book to flesh out worm wood, or Chi town. I prefer books that work together than one of special arm pits of the apocalypse books.

Lets face it with rifts it is easer to go to a new world than travel from NA to japan. And there is a core OCC built around dimension hopping so that instead of a book that is not likely to be used by a group not made it.

Uh... I was responding to CK not you. SO I'm assuming this is just your input. Sure it works. If you only roll CS War campaign, Mainbook and Rifts Underseas then the CS made it to 109 but lost Lone Star and Triax was pushed out to Sea and had to strengthen their relations with The New Navy.

It is always possible to make it work... it is what the GM has to do all the time.

[Killer Cyborg]

This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

And of those 15 Dimension Books, we actually only have what 3 locales (Wormwood, Skrapers, Phaseworld, can add +1 with Manhunter maybe). Chaos Earth and other separate lines can also count as Dimension Books, but very few are MDC and don't run into the need to convert.

Yup.
Even tossing in each other game line as a separate dimension, it's still not a lot of dimensions.

As Blue_Lion suggested (basically) One way to use those World Books (okay maybe not ALL, but some) would be to treat them as Dimension Books for Alternate Earths specific to that region. That would allow Tarn to be correct, and allowing new places on Earth to be explored from a Rifts perspective if you don't want them to be the same world.

Oh, definitely.
But I shouldn't have to house-rule it.

Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.

Here is the question though. Why would these other places look so "open" (or peaceful, uneventful, etc) compared to NA/main-setting? It seems a bit egotistical to think that NA would come out the best from the GC without a huge mcguffin.

NA didn't come out the best. The NGR did.
But I wasn't talking "outside of the US," I was talking about within the US as well.
Most of Rifts Earth should be untamed wilderness, with pockets of civilization here or there.

I would expect an Antarctica focused book to be one of the less a human-centric locations (like Atlantis), but somehow I don't think that will happen.

Same.
If I were told that there were NO human survivors or remnants on that continent, but instead there was a civilization of low-temperature D-Bees that had interesting problems, and the potential to affect or interact with other key parts of the planet, then I'd be intrigued.

[Zer0 Kay]

There are plenty of reasons one could make up in order to explain why there might be a population there.
But I can't think of any reasons why one should.

You'd be happy if Rifts Earth was just the CS and Atlantis and maybe the vampires wouldn't you?

I'd be happy if the map that Erin Tarn (aka the in-setting voice of Kevin Siembieda) had laid out in the RMB had been stuck to.
Nothing happening in Japan.
Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.
But we get fleshed out information on the places mentioned in the RMB. Chi-Town, for example, could have a book for each Level or two, and I wouldn't gripe much. Shaedo could have a book, and that'd be cool. Would have been nice to have a good Tolkeen book BEFORE it was destroyed. Would still be great to have a Lazlo book.
Places adjacent to North America, or that might be able to be reasonably traveled to from North America without a Rift, AND that have built-in party motivations to visit? Those are cool too.
To an extent.

Not necessarily as cool as books about other dimensions, but still cool.

But books that answer the lukewarm question of "Hey, ever wonder what's happening in the Rifts Earth version of the most unpopulated wastelands of modern times?"
That's NOT gonna grab me.
I need some kind of reason to care.

That was kind of annoying with the oh she just missed all of Japan that wasn't rifted out.
I agree to a point. Her saying a specific place like Japan should leave out Japan. Her claiming an in general everyplace else is wilderness is simply irresponsible unless she has traveled every place. But detailing locations she knew were inhabited first before making up stuff... that would have been so much better. Like you said we are missing so much on the Lazlos and they should have been within the first 10 world books.

So even if the most unpopulated wasteland was home to something like the mountains of maddness

[Blue_Lion]

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

So in 80 years (from today), those numbers couldn't increase and/or the gender ratios change?

I agree there probably isn't much reason to increase the population numbers currently, but that doesn't mean some reasonable "mcguffin" couldn't be introduced to explain the population (like mineral wealth, "low cost space program testing", etc). (I don't have the preview book so I am not going to speculate to heavily, though I am interested in getting the final product).

Gender ratio would be harder to justify it remaining static IMHO, at least if GA-Earth is more progressive (and not regressive) with women in science. That might allow the ratio to be more favorable, well short of women taking multiple male breeding partners or other approaches (influx of refuges, cloning, genetic engineering, etc).

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

This assumes they stay focused on cutting edge technology and don't resort to magic/psionic development or using some more "low tech" or have access to some of the tech the space stations have (if they can survive 300 years then its possible Antarctica bases could IMHO) or the New Navy (Tico's support bases).

This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

And of those 15 Dimension Books, we actually only have what 3 locales (Wormwood, Skrapers, Phaseworld, can add +1 with Manhunter maybe). Chaos Earth and other separate lines can also count as Dimension Books, but very few are MDC and don't run into the need to convert.

As Blue_Lion suggested (basically) One way to use those World Books (okay maybe not ALL, but some) would be to treat them as Dimension Books for Alternate Earths specific to that region. That would allow Tarn to be correct, and allowing new places on Earth to be explored from a Rifts perspective if you don't want them to be the same world.

Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.

Here is the question though. Why would these other places look so "open" (or peaceful, uneventful, etc) compared to NA/main-setting? It seems a bit egotistical to think that NA would come out the best from the GC without a huge mcguffin.

It would seem to defy credibility if Rifts North America (and Europe) are the centers of human survival. Because if humans aren't the dominants in Asian/Africa/SA/Austrilia, then it leaves room for the non-humans to rise to prominence (like at Atlantis), and would probably draw in some other "players" that WB2 mentions in passing (IIRC).

Now I do agree that some World Books probably should be Dimension Books (and can certainly be used as such like WB6-9) instead of World Books, but then some World Books should also probably really be Source Books (DBoNA, CWC, JU, maybe LS). I would expect an Antarctica focused book to be one of the less a human-centric locations (like Atlantis), but somehow I don't think that will happen.

People surviving in Antarctica makes more sense than people surviving in orbit and on the Moon. I just don't want to see any MDC penguins or mutant penguins.

It really depends on how self-sufficient those in space actually where by the time of the GC. Launching material into space is expensive, so if those facilities can be made to be self-sufficient as much as possible they can become more economical and likely to survive. Plus the population/size of the stations themselves I think almost requires them to have been self-sufficient.

Humans in Antarctica could always attempt to cross the ocean back to Africa/Australia/South America or even home (Europe, Asia, North America). We know some people attempted the trip (IIRC it was mentioned in Japan). For the Spacers, it is a bit more difficult (adapted biology, available ships, etc) to see that happening or even being a viable option.

I made no such suggestion, I pointed out a blanket statement zer0 Kay made that you clump world books in threes and make them new dimensions does not quite work. Do not put words in my mouth.

Also thanks to the minion war we are up to 5 dimensions plus other game lines.

[Zer0 Kay]

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

So in 80 years (from today), those numbers couldn't increase and/or the gender ratios change?

I agree there probably isn't much reason to increase the population numbers currently, but that doesn't mean some reasonable "mcguffin" couldn't be introduced to explain the population (like mineral wealth, "low cost space program testing", etc). (I don't have the preview book so I am not going to speculate to heavily, though I am interested in getting the final product).

Gender ratio would be harder to justify it remaining static IMHO, at least if GA-Earth is more progressive (and not regressive) with women in science. That might allow the ratio to be more favorable, well short of women taking multiple male breeding partners or other approaches (influx of refuges, cloning, genetic engineering, etc).

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

This assumes they stay focused on cutting edge technology and don't resort to magic/psionic development or using some more "low tech" or have access to some of the tech the space stations have (if they can survive 300 years then its possible Antarctica bases could IMHO) or the New Navy (Tico's support bases).

This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

And of those 15 Dimension Books, we actually only have what 3 locales (Wormwood, Skrapers, Phaseworld, can add +1 with Manhunter maybe). Chaos Earth and other separate lines can also count as Dimension Books, but very few are MDC and don't run into the need to convert.

As Blue_Lion suggested (basically) One way to use those World Books (okay maybe not ALL, but some) would be to treat them as Dimension Books for Alternate Earths specific to that region. That would allow Tarn to be correct, and allowing new places on Earth to be explored from a Rifts perspective if you don't want them to be the same world.

Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.

Here is the question though. Why would these other places look so "open" (or peaceful, uneventful, etc) compared to NA/main-setting? It seems a bit egotistical to think that NA would come out the best from the GC without a huge mcguffin.

It would seem to defy credibility if Rifts North America (and Europe) are the centers of human survival. Because if humans aren't the dominants in Asian/Africa/SA/Austrilia, then it leaves room for the non-humans to rise to prominence (like at Atlantis), and would probably draw in some other "players" that WB2 mentions in passing (IIRC).

Now I do agree that some World Books probably should be Dimension Books (and can certainly be used as such like WB6-9) instead of World Books, but then some World Books should also probably really be Source Books (DBoNA, CWC, JU, maybe LS). I would expect an Antarctica focused book to be one of the less a human-centric locations (like Atlantis), but somehow I don't think that will happen.

People surviving in Antarctica makes more sense than people surviving in orbit and on the Moon. I just don't want to see any MDC penguins or mutant penguins.

It really depends on how self-sufficient those in space actually where by the time of the GC. Launching material into space is expensive, so if those facilities can be made to be self-sufficient as much as possible they can become more economical and likely to survive. Plus the population/size of the stations themselves I think almost requires them to have been self-sufficient.

Humans in Antarctica could always attempt to cross the ocean back to Africa/Australia/South America or even home (Europe, Asia, North America). We know some people attempted the trip (IIRC it was mentioned in Japan). For the Spacers, it is a bit more difficult (adapted biology, available ships, etc) to see that happening or even being a viable option.

I made no such suggestion, I pointed out a blanket statement zer0 Kay made that you clump world books in threes and make them new dimensions does not quite work. Do not put words in my mouth.

Also thanks to the minion war we are up to 5 dimensions plus other game lines.

But you specifically said Zer0 Kay is a putts it's clearly written here in blue crayon "Zer0 Kay is a putts." See obviously you wrote it because it is blue.

[Blue_Lion]

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

So in 80 years (from today), those numbers couldn't increase and/or the gender ratios change?

I agree there probably isn't much reason to increase the population numbers currently, but that doesn't mean some reasonable "mcguffin" couldn't be introduced to explain the population (like mineral wealth, "low cost space program testing", etc). (I don't have the preview book so I am not going to speculate to heavily, though I am interested in getting the final product).

Gender ratio would be harder to justify it remaining static IMHO, at least if GA-Earth is more progressive (and not regressive) with women in science. That might allow the ratio to be more favorable, well short of women taking multiple male breeding partners or other approaches (influx of refuges, cloning, genetic engineering, etc).

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

This assumes they stay focused on cutting edge technology and don't resort to magic/psionic development or using some more "low tech" or have access to some of the tech the space stations have (if they can survive 300 years then its possible Antarctica bases could IMHO) or the New Navy (Tico's support bases).

This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

And of those 15 Dimension Books, we actually only have what 3 locales (Wormwood, Skrapers, Phaseworld, can add +1 with Manhunter maybe). Chaos Earth and other separate lines can also count as Dimension Books, but very few are MDC and don't run into the need to convert.

As Blue_Lion suggested (basically) One way to use those World Books (okay maybe not ALL, but some) would be to treat them as Dimension Books for Alternate Earths specific to that region. That would allow Tarn to be correct, and allowing new places on Earth to be explored from a Rifts perspective if you don't want them to be the same world.

Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.

Here is the question though. Why would these other places look so "open" (or peaceful, uneventful, etc) compared to NA/main-setting? It seems a bit egotistical to think that NA would come out the best from the GC without a huge mcguffin.

It would seem to defy credibility if Rifts North America (and Europe) are the centers of human survival. Because if humans aren't the dominants in Asian/Africa/SA/Austrilia, then it leaves room for the non-humans to rise to prominence (like at Atlantis), and would probably draw in some other "players" that WB2 mentions in passing (IIRC).

Now I do agree that some World Books probably should be Dimension Books (and can certainly be used as such like WB6-9) instead of World Books, but then some World Books should also probably really be Source Books (DBoNA, CWC, JU, maybe LS). I would expect an Antarctica focused book to be one of the less a human-centric locations (like Atlantis), but somehow I don't think that will happen.

People surviving in Antarctica makes more sense than people surviving in orbit and on the Moon. I just don't want to see any MDC penguins or mutant penguins.

It really depends on how self-sufficient those in space actually where by the time of the GC. Launching material into space is expensive, so if those facilities can be made to be self-sufficient as much as possible they can become more economical and likely to survive. Plus the population/size of the stations themselves I think almost requires them to have been self-sufficient.

Humans in Antarctica could always attempt to cross the ocean back to Africa/Australia/South America or even home (Europe, Asia, North America). We know some people attempted the trip (IIRC it was mentioned in Japan). For the Spacers, it is a bit more difficult (adapted biology, available ships, etc) to see that happening or even being a viable option.

I made no such suggestion, I pointed out a blanket statement zer0 Kay made that you clump world books in threes and make them new dimensions does not quite work. Do not put words in my mouth.

Also thanks to the minion war we are up to 5 dimensions plus other game lines.

But you specifically said Zer0 Kay is a putts it's clearly written here in blue crayon "Zer0 Kay is a putts." See obviously you wrote it because it is blue.

When have you ever seen me use a blue crayon. Simply put you are not worth my blue crayon.

[kaid]

I would simply point out there is a a pretty major foot hold of both demons and devils in one area. If one or both get hell pits opened up unchallenged you could wind up with enormous demon or devil armies with no way of shutting off the pathway if you never get down there. The minion war is going to be a pretty good reason to explore all the far reaches of the world because once the area you are in stabilizes leaving hell pits to churn their armies unchallenged is how you lose the war.

[Curbludgeon]

The word is putz, quoting huge blocks of other quotes is inherently a jerk move, and if someone doesn't mind skimming the Scraypers book to provide a reference, I thought it was described as being a relatively low-tech solar system near Phase World. This would make the list of depicted dimension Rifts Earth, Wormwood, Phase World, dyval, Hades, Palladium, Splicers, Chaos Earth (the last two arguably), and what else?

[Zer0 Kay]

The word is putz, quoting huge blocks of other quotes is inherently a jerk move, and if someone doesn't mind skimming the Scraypers book to provide a reference, I thought it was described as being a relatively low-tech solar system near Phase World. This would make the list of depicted dimension Rifts Earth, Wormwood, Phase World, dyval, Hades, Palladium, Splicers, Chaos Earth (the last two arguably), and what else?

Gee... who are you responding to? I can't tell because there is no quotes your responding to

[Zer0 Kay]

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

So in 80 years (from today), those numbers couldn't increase and/or the gender ratios change?

I agree there probably isn't much reason to increase the population numbers currently, but that doesn't mean some reasonable "mcguffin" couldn't be introduced to explain the population (like mineral wealth, "low cost space program testing", etc). (I don't have the preview book so I am not going to speculate to heavily, though I am interested in getting the final product).

Gender ratio would be harder to justify it remaining static IMHO, at least if GA-Earth is more progressive (and not regressive) with women in science. That might allow the ratio to be more favorable, well short of women taking multiple male breeding partners or other approaches (influx of refuges, cloning, genetic engineering, etc).

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

This assumes they stay focused on cutting edge technology and don't resort to magic/psionic development or using some more "low tech" or have access to some of the tech the space stations have (if they can survive 300 years then its possible Antarctica bases could IMHO) or the New Navy (Tico's support bases).

This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

And of those 15 Dimension Books, we actually only have what 3 locales (Wormwood, Skrapers, Phaseworld, can add +1 with Manhunter maybe). Chaos Earth and other separate lines can also count as Dimension Books, but very few are MDC and don't run into the need to convert.

As Blue_Lion suggested (basically) One way to use those World Books (okay maybe not ALL, but some) would be to treat them as Dimension Books for Alternate Earths specific to that region. That would allow Tarn to be correct, and allowing new places on Earth to be explored from a Rifts perspective if you don't want them to be the same world.

Most places quite and/or unpopulated and/or wastelands.

Here is the question though. Why would these other places look so "open" (or peaceful, uneventful, etc) compared to NA/main-setting? It seems a bit egotistical to think that NA would come out the best from the GC without a huge mcguffin.

It would seem to defy credibility if Rifts North America (and Europe) are the centers of human survival. Because if humans aren't the dominants in Asian/Africa/SA/Austrilia, then it leaves room for the non-humans to rise to prominence (like at Atlantis), and would probably draw in some other "players" that WB2 mentions in passing (IIRC).

Now I do agree that some World Books probably should be Dimension Books (and can certainly be used as such like WB6-9) instead of World Books, but then some World Books should also probably really be Source Books (DBoNA, CWC, JU, maybe LS). I would expect an Antarctica focused book to be one of the less a human-centric locations (like Atlantis), but somehow I don't think that will happen.

People surviving in Antarctica makes more sense than people surviving in orbit and on the Moon. I just don't want to see any MDC penguins or mutant penguins.

It really depends on how self-sufficient those in space actually where by the time of the GC. Launching material into space is expensive, so if those facilities can be made to be self-sufficient as much as possible they can become more economical and likely to survive. Plus the population/size of the stations themselves I think almost requires them to have been self-sufficient.

Humans in Antarctica could always attempt to cross the ocean back to Africa/Australia/South America or even home (Europe, Asia, North America). We know some people attempted the trip (IIRC it was mentioned in Japan). For the Spacers, it is a bit more difficult (adapted biology, available ships, etc) to see that happening or even being a viable option.

I made no such suggestion, I pointed out a blanket statement zer0 Kay made that you clump world books in threes and make them new dimensions does not quite work. Do not put words in my mouth.

Also thanks to the minion war we are up to 5 dimensions plus other game lines.

But you specifically said Zer0 Kay is a putts it's clearly written here in blue crayon "Zer0 Kay is a putts." See obviously you wrote it because it is blue.

When have you ever seen me use a blue crayon. Simply put you are not worth my blue crayon.

Oh, yeah... well it's there so it must have been you

[Zer0 Kay]

I would simply point out there is a a pretty major foot hold of both demons and devils in one area. If one or both get hell pits opened up unchallenged you could wind up with enormous demon or devil armies with no way of shutting off the pathway if you never get down there. The minion war is going to be a pretty good reason to explore all the far reaches of the world because once the area you are in stabilizes leaving hell pits to churn their armies unchallenged is how you lose the war.

And that makes sense on why they'd open in remote areas instead of right next door to major civilizations.

[Pepsi Jedi]

there are some settlements some descendants of the golden age research facilities.

But of course there are.

Well I would simply point out even today we have some highly modern advanced bases in antarctica that are designed to survive in isolation for extended periods of time and staffed by highly skilled highly screened scientists. Now throw in golden age micro factories and recycling and it would have been more surprising if some did not come through pretty well. As terrible as the environment is down in antarctica that very harshness basically negates a great deal of threats from the rifts other survivors had to deal with. No cities of dead/decaying people to spread disease most critters short of demons or full on supernatural horrors would not survive rifting in long enough to find the survivors let alone attack them. Their isolation also ment they fell into the memory hole most people forgot those bases existed or never knew in the first place so no major invasion attempts to attack people that nobody knows exists/existed.

the bigger issue is that the number of people living there is only about 4000, with only 1000 being year round, in 70 research stations. the largest station currently (mcmurdo) tops out at only 1000 people, only 200 living there year round. AND the population is more than 90% men.

with no reason to send more than that down (the science can be done quite well remotely after all, and there is zero reason to colonize pre-rifts.) it is highly unlikely those numbers would change much.
so the odds of there being even one station with sufficient numbers to support a breeding population is pretty darn low. supporting a population that is not heavily inbred is going to be nearly impossible.

and that is before getting into the fact the stations have no access to resources that aren't flown in.. even with golden age tech, they would supplies of metals, plastics, etc to produce spare parts to keep their bases running.. and they won't have them. so the bases being maintained over 3 centuries is nigh impossible. and without those bases any population would freeze to death. (plus, no resources for expansion.. so the population would never be able to get above what the pre-rifts base was designed to handle.. which is a recipe for disaster)

According to some research papers like this "only The chances of success, according to Heritage, do not reach 100 percent until the initial crew has 98 settlers, or 49 breeding pairs. “We can then conclude that, under the parameters used for those simulations, a minimum crew of 98 settlers is needed for a 6,300-year multi-generational space journey towards Proxima Centauri b,” say Marin and Beluffi." or this one that says "A initial amount of 25 breeding pairs of settlers drives the mission towards extinction in 50 +/- 15% of cases if we completely forbid inbreeding. Under the set of parameters described in this publication, we find that a minimum crew of 98 people is necessary ensure a 100% success rate for a 6300-year space travel towards the closest telluric exoplanet known so far." and I'm pretty sure with a 10% average female infertility and 5% male infertility and a very low infant mortality rate of .061% (with modern 2010s science) that not just 49 breeding pairs but 397 breeding pairs who can then switch males to a new set of 397 nine time in as many years during their 15 years of breeding (Figuring that the average female researcher is maybe 25 at the start and has a good 15 years of fertility AND peak birth survival rates that) and after those first 9 years they can go back and offset by one so the females throughout their 15 years of fertility never have a child by the same male. The next generation could even start child birth earlier and as gross as it may be some could couple with the original male breeding stalk who were not their fathers, further diversifying the gene pool. Of course they'd also need to have the females move from base to base.

All that to say if 98 people can 100% guarantee a 6300 year mission then 397 with alternate partners can guarantee genetic viability for a much longer time, maybe even more than 20,000 years. It isn't an issue of genetic viability. The issue would be the climate, adapting to larger populations with food and housing and other necessities. It is more likely that with intentional breeding to ensure genetic diversity that the survivors would soon run out of space and maybe have to start digging into the ice and maybe that should have opened up some of those rifts that were under the ice. Bom bom bom
But. There also isn't a shortage of food, especially with creatures coming in. It would be more likely though that the bases would move closer to the shore and/or congregate into a single base.

As far as flying in supplies... I don't remember the Eskimo, Inuit, Yupik or Aleut living in AK and making Igloos worry about not having wood and steel or plastics. Granted they have moss, in some cases stone but they had very little land meat and had a large portion of their diet derived from the sea. Life in the Antarctic would be hard, not impossible.

All of that said... the first objective of most of the scientist would have likely been how to get out of the Antarctic and most would likely try to go home. One usually doesn't think "Oh crap this is happening here it must be worse where I came from.", normally one thinks "It sucks here. I wish I could go back home." Associating the familiarity of home with safety.

A lot of this is spot on.

Will address some in a later post.

[Pepsi Jedi]

.....this one tends to hit one of my pet peeves anyway: World Books set in places that I don't care about, and my adventurers wouldn't have any interest in.

Feel free to sell me on it, if you like; I'm trying to be open-minded.
Why would I care?
Why would my characters care?
What's this place got that no other place has?

On the other hand, I LOVE new settings, because I feel like traveling across an endless Megaverse via RIFTs is, well, the focus of the game!

I agree: travelling across an endless Megaverse via Rifts should be the focus of the game.
But this isn't that.
This is yet another WORLDbook about a place on Rifts Earth that should probably be desolate wastelands if the "apocalypse" really lived up to its name.
There's an infinity of universes and worlds that can be and should be explored... and Palladium keeps cranking out books about places on this one planet.
The game is literally about interdimensional portals, and we've only got 15 Dimension books that cover a small handful of dimensions, compared to 31+ World books, 17 Sourcebooks, and countless other kinds of books that are all focused on slowly detailing every square inch of Rifts Earth (except for important stuff like Chi-Town).

New settings are great.
Dimensional travel is great.
If this was "World Book 45: Ice Planet Zebra," I'd be good with it. I'd be intrigued, and I'd be scrounging for money to buy it.
But it's not that.
It's yet another "in a literally infinite multiverse, let's explore places on the same old planet, particularly ones that you've never really cared about."

(Yes, some people have occasionally cared about Antarctica. I just have no idea why. Especially in the context of a game where it would be more fun and make more sense to create an entirely new world or dimension to explore.)

(Bah Humbug! )

Hmm Maybe the real Antarctica of this Earth is gone and it is the Antarctica from a parallel universe that has poked through the void?

They replaced the entire rocky mountain chain with 'alien' mountains that are taller and different. Atlantis came Rifting back in. Japan rifted out.. then back. It's not like it'd be totally unprecedented.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's been brushed upon before but I'll re-iterate, using 'today's numbers to rule out survivors in Rifts doesn't work.

The Earth of Rifts went into a full fledged Golden Age of man. Where hyperscience became commonplace. They had technology to uplift dogs into full out bipedal sapient beings, bionics, microtechnology to allow for power armor and MDC Technology.

This technology would allow advances in all aspects. Not just the above. MDC plastic for example would do away with "Having to replace the Habitats on a regular basis" in the Antartic. They have literal nuclear generators the size of a hockeypuck or coffee can. Your 'power needs' are pretty well taken care of. "Well how would they eat, smart guy??" We have the answer to that too. In Lone star they talk about the genetically enhanced food that the CS uses thanks to recovered knowledge/tech from Lone Star. They have genetically engineered cows in the CS that grow more meat, faster, on less food, than our own cows and they taste great!! Now... do I see herds of snowcows? No. Mammoths for food? No (Though I'd totally eat a mammoth burger, but then I'm the one that thought up Dino Burger for our rifts game) What you WOULD see would be golden age hydroponics labs. Genetically engineered plants that would grow in the harsh conditions. Recycling tech (Which we've seen in Mutants in orbit) was amazing in the Golden Age. They recycle their trash to form what little soil they'd need and use advanced hydroponics for growing of genetically enhanced food stuffs. In ATB we even see plants that can grow gasoline, and 'Meat roasts" to the tune of multiples per week. So again, Reference for the food supply is WELL taken care of. Even if they were all vegetarians (With the "Meat potatos" and such they wouldn't have to be.. not to mention FISHING) But even if they WERE All vegetarians they were good to go on food. And... yeah.. there's a BUNCHA Fish in the oceans guys and with like 99% of humanity dying..... a lot less people fishing for them.. so the survivors have a lot more to go around.

So.. Food, power and shelter are more than taken care of. Which leaves Raw materials to maintain, expand and enhance.

Well circle back to the golden age of man. They had microfactories that could produce stuff pretty much with out human intervention. Not quite star Trek Replicators but near enough. Antartica is alot of ice and snow for sure... but.. guys. There's land up under it. A simple mining operation gets down to the minerals and you feed them into those microfactories and produce what ever you need.

The reason noone is seriously tapping the Antarctic right now, is NOT because there's nothing there to tap... but due to international treaties and stuff to leave it alone. The coming of rifts, the haywire that occurs the monsters and society falling on the mainlands and those agreements not to tap Antarctica for resources are going to go away in about a day and a half.

So.... you have Power... you have Shelter.... you have food.... you have resources.... and by the golden age of man you may have even had tourism. In some of the ATB books it talks about buying houses in the new Eden at the bottom of the world. "Ok well that's AtB, not rifts" Ok sure.. but with golden age tech, you're telling me that noone would have cashed in on tourism? "Come see Antarctica, the jewel of the south" Bla bla bla. Which brings more people, more shelter, more power, more presence, etc. And the research stations we HAVE would have grown massivly in the Golden Age of man. Why? Well because science was embraced but there's another thing.

Antarctica is not 'jurisdiction' under any one flag..... Meaning... no regulations.. Each base sets it's own rules and is governed by those rules but say a huge scientific conglomerate or mega corp wanted a research station where it didn't have to play around with pesky US, or Russian, or German regulations.... they could build it down there with golden age tech and do what ever they wanted. Even MORE reason for MORE people to be down there.

If we have survivors in under sea bases and submarines... and survivors in rat-trap left over space stations 300 years old with no access to the planet.... then it's totally easy to conceive that people in Antarctica could still be there. If nothing else, the research bases there are specificly designed to survive harsh conditions and being cut off for months at a time (Best case) They store like two years provisions there now. JUST IN CASE. With hyper science that could be multipled by factors of 10 or 20 with out even breaking a sweat and if during that time frame you're using alllllllllll those scientific and engineering minds to 'survive' and 'prosper' it would not be too difficult to pull it off. Especially if the rules and regulations that prevent some ... less than ideal happenings went away with the cataclysm.

I mean without putting too fine a point on it, they're not THAT damn far from the southern reaches of Africa, Tasmania, Australia etc. There's likely even trade going on.

[glitterboy2098]

ah yes, a "simple" mining operation through three kilometers of ever shifting quasi-solid ice..

and while the shells of the habs might MDC, things like the life support would still be prone to breakdown.. kinda important when the average temp is -49C
not to mention most of those fancy machines you are counting on for power and food and manufacturing are also going to be mostly SDC internals.. prone to breaking and malfunction.

and the thing about sea bases and submarines are that they are capable of reaching civilized areas where they can trade, or have access to raw materials that don't require digging through kilometers of treacherous ice to reach. plus they tend to be in areas where if the life support breaks, they can just get by for awhile. (tritonia is i nthe tripics, where things just get a bit warm.. and subs can surface and ventilate) kinda hard to make do when you are one broken part from freezing to death within hours, even with the best cold weather clothing in the world.

especially when you consider that the cataclysm's global freeze drops things about 30 degrees below normal seasonal temps.. which for Antarctica means that the temp is actually going to be -79C or less for several years after the cataclysm starts (if not longer, given the multi-decade winter russia experienced)
Carbon dioxide freezes at -78C. initial survival would be damn hard when the literal air around you is literally freezing onto the ice, and most materials get as brittle as glass..

[Pepsi Jedi]

ah yes, a "simple" mining operation through three kilometers of ever shifting quasi-solid ice..

Ahh Yes... almost like they didn't have MEGA DAMAGE LASERS which could core through it literally..well. like a LASER through ICE. lol

Seriously? Pew pew pew. Walk down hole. Pew pew pew.. One power armor with the laser hooked up to it's power core (Unlimited ammo) and you're there in under an afternoon. That's with out touching mining borgs.

and while the shells of the habs might MDC, things like the life support would still be prone to breakdown.. kinda important when the average temp is -49C

Build those out of MDC parts. SPECIFICALLY so there's no wear and tear on them. Boom Problem solved. This has been addressed in the books. Yes, MDC may cost 5 or 10 times more than SDC materials but it literally never needs to be replaced (Shy of MDC damage) So you build not only the habitats out of MDC materials but the essential gear out of them too. You know. Like the CS does with EVERYTHING.. or the NGR does with EVERYTHING.. Or every golden aged tech power did with EVERYTHING. Your MDC uniform is going to out live you, they're going to hose it off and give it to your great great grandkid. Even if this wasn't commonplace around the world you can bet your rear end it WOULD be in this environment. It sounds like a rather simple answer.. because it IS a simple answer. Why work harder when you can work smarter. Build the crap out of the hypertech (MDC) at your disposal and stop worrying about it.

not to mention most of those fancy machines you are counting on for power and food and manufacturing are also going to be mostly SDC internals.. prone to breaking and malfunction.

Only if you're an idiot. None of the fancy machines we have now have SDC internals. MDC stuff is simply MDC stuff. You don't have "MDC Crunchy shells with SDC innards" Once you CAN produce MDC materials you WOULD. Cost would be a factor but cost was NEVER a factor in the golden age stuff we know about, and even if it WAS... again, this isn't a TV for South Beach... this would be gear for ANTARCTICA. Of COURSE they would build it out of MDC so they wouldn't have to WORRY about it breaking.

and the thing about sea bases and submarines are that they are capable of reaching civilized areas where they can trade,

So is Antarctica. They can go north to Africa or Australia, or even South America. It's not like they're in outter space.

Oh.. wait..... MULTIPLE multi generational Space stations with literally no resupply from the planet are still kicking around in orbit? Due to.... hyperscience? Ohhhhh riiight.

or have access to raw materials that don't require digging through kilometers of treacherous ice to reach.

Again. Not to sound flip but... Lasers.. Plasma... One power armor could core a tunnel in an afternoon. A concentrated effort could be done ina few days. Then you're down there. Nor is there a solid "Kilometers thick" Ice shelf over the entire place. Some places are thinner than others..annnnnnd. GLobal warming. By the time the coming of rifts, it might have been MUCH thinner. But even with out it. MD lasers solve that problem in a few minutes.

plus they tend to be in areas where if the life support breaks, they can just get by for awhile.

If your sub breaks you sink and die...

(tritonia is i nthe tripics, where things just get a bit warm.. and subs can surface and ventilate)

You're assuming that the "Thing that lets them surface" isn't the thing that breaks...

kinda hard to make do when you are one broken part from freezing to death within hours, even with the best cold weather clothing in the world.

That's why they have replacement items and supplies to last them for literal YEARS... just in case. Even though Resupply happens with in 6 months max. Just in case. It's not like the people go down there with one battery and just hope nothing happens. And again you're 100% ignoring "Golden age of man=MDC materials" Shy of a Demon coming to chew on your (Whatever) it simply doesn't break.

especially when you consider that the cataclysm's global freeze drops things about 30 degrees below normal seasonal temps.. which for Antarctica means that the temp is actually going to be -79C or less for several years after the cataclysm starts (if not longer, given the multi-decade winter russia experienced)
Carbon dioxide freezes at -78C. initial survival would be damn hard when the literal air around you is literally freezing onto the ice, and most materials get as brittle as glass..

MEGA DAMAGE MATERIAL. It doesn't matter. It's a hand wave sure but that's what Mega damage stuff is. It's "Science magic". We don't know 'how' MD materials work. Just that golden age tech advanced far enough for them to work. When you're already used to -50, -80 isn't that much difference. They crank the golden age heaters up a few more notches and be more careful.

Again 1) Mega damage structures = no need to replace them and they can with stand the cold. 2) Golden age power tech (Pocket sized nuclear reactors) means no power worries. 3) Golden age genetics means, food is taken care of, and 4) Golden age recycling and mining/processing means that the materials that ARE there are utilized.

If nothing else once the snows came they'd bury many of the settlements and insulate them from the harsher cold above. You just send up periscopes for air. (That's if you didn't have golden age airscrubberrs for just that reason. I mean..... space stations in orbit are still going.)

Your objections would be some what valid if they only had access to 'modern age tech' (But even then, not nearly as much as you seem to think) But witht he golden age tech we know about.... It may be tough for the first few years.. but no biggie.

Did you read the most recent world book? The Russians lived under ice for literal years(Decades? Generations? I forget the 100% specirics) and came out just fine. They came out stronger than when they went in.

Why would Antarctica be any different when they would be ---purpose built--- to do it?

[Blue_Lion]

The word is putz, quoting huge blocks of other quotes is inherently a jerk move, and if someone doesn't mind skimming the Scraypers book to provide a reference, I thought it was described as being a relatively low-tech solar system near Phase World. This would make the list of depicted dimension Rifts Earth, Wormwood, Phase World, dyval, Hades, Palladium, Splicers, Chaos Earth (the last two arguably), and what else?

Why because you say so. That really starts off as an attack on posters.
I quote what I replay to so it is clear what I am talking about. Becomes long becausse it is a running conversation. It is not a jerk move in any form. You can just skim past the quote because I do not imbed my statment in broken up quotes.

[kaid]

I don't want to get all spoilery but in the golden age humans were starting to colonize space as shown by mutans in orbit. Where would be an excellent place to test long term enclosed habitations that may have to grow their own food and be self sustaining?