Have the Splugorth/Atlanteans gotten into orbit?

[ShadowLogan]

@Shark_Force
WB5 states "It stays in a low sub-orbital altitude because to go higher into orbit means getting blasted by Pre-Rifts weapon satellites in orbit around the planet (or possibly getting attacked or intercepted by the forces from the moon colony)." Maximum Altitude is also listed at 30km (which is high enough for astronaut wings).

What branch of the CS military was responsible for the missile strike (I only have SOT4&6)? The CS Navy is specifically called out as the branch responsible for the strategic nuclear weapons and safeguards seem to be in place (pg47 of SB4):
-"... and the deployment of strategic nuclear weapons has been limited to the CS Navy."
-"Even at that, there are extensive and elaborate protocols surrounding the use of stratetic nukes which CSN officers must follow to prevent unauthorized or accidental use of nuclear weapons."

Those two text bits would seem to rule out the opening nuclear strike to be be using strategic weapons from a rogue officer.

@Taal.
Splyn "...discovered a fleeing Kittani armada filled with refugees trying to escape the encroaching Mechanoid force." The Kittani organization being an "armada" suggests they are in space IMHO. And IINM the 3G's Splugorth don't get actual ships until Fot3G (DB13) aside from the space fighter (which DB2 says is based on DDs).

Lets also keep in mind we only really see Splyn's organization at Atlantis, we don't know how he has his military organized for the other WORLDS he/she/it controls completely (Atlantis being a continent and not the entire planet). So it is fair so say that Splyn might not see a need at Rifts Earth, but we don't know about his other holdings (he may be saving "money" by letting the orbitals do the job for "free"), but indications point to some knowledge (else why build the DD, or how to encounter an fleeing Kittani Armada possibly).

[glitterboy2098]

CS nukes fall into the following catagories:

LRM nuclear warheads - RUE, probably on par with the old Davy Crockett system in terms of yield. very minimal blast for a nuke. these would not be effected by the orbital defenses.

Tomahawk and Firefly's - SB4, basically cruise missiles with 150-200kt warheads. fired from naval torpedo systems. these would not be effected by the orbital defenses.

Trident II SLBM's - SB4, fired from the CS's 2 Ohio class. these would be effected by the orbital defenses.. but only if fired in a standard sub-orbital shot, and if fired in a Depressed trajectory shot probably wouldn't be effected. however such shots have far reduced effective ranges.


the SOT attack appears to have been carried out by the army, and thus was probably done with a volley of the Nuclear LRM's. since those are tactical rather than strategic nukes, the CS navy would not have to be involved.

[guardiandashi]

the reality of why everyone uses normal rotation orbits is as mentioned due to the fact that it saves energy or delta V.

part of the issue is that based on the claimed damage of the glitterboy boom gun the stated speed of the rounds is bull crud, it just doesn't pack enough energy for the claimed effects.

another issue is as mentioned clearly most of the writers (and editors) have no flipping clue how space actually works.

like the claim that you need to have a vehicle with a minimum speed of mach 4.8 to reach escape velocity and a bunch of other issues

[Hotrod]

the reality of why everyone uses normal rotation orbits is as mentioned due to the fact that it saves energy or delta V.

part of the issue is that based on the claimed damage of the glitterboy boom gun the stated speed of the rounds is bull crud, it just doesn't pack enough energy for the claimed effects.

another issue is as mentioned clearly most of the writers (and editors) have no flipping clue how space actually works.

like the claim that you need to have a vehicle with a minimum speed of mach 4.8 to reach escape velocity and a bunch of other issues

When we were kids, these were just numbers that translated into "really fast" or "really powerful." Now the fanbase has too many nerd degrees. While I agree with your points, I take far more issue with the fact that spacecraft are given "maximum speeds" in space, that the gigantic orbital stations can't be easily seen, monitored, and communicated with from Earth (since they all dwarf the ISS, which we can see with the un-aided eye), and the notion that humans in orbit would abandon their own species and homeworld rather than render any kind of aid against alien invaders.

[ShadowLogan]

the reality of why everyone uses normal rotation orbits is as mentioned due to the fact that it saves energy or delta V.

part of the issue is that based on the claimed damage of the glitterboy boom gun the stated speed of the rounds is bull crud, it just doesn't pack enough energy for the claimed effects.

another issue is as mentioned clearly most of the writers (and editors) have no flipping clue how space actually works.

like the claim that you need to have a vehicle with a minimum speed of mach 4.8 to reach escape velocity and a bunch of other issues

When we were kids, these were just numbers that translated into "really fast" or "really powerful." Now the fanbase has too many nerd degrees. While I agree with your points, I take far more issue with the fact that spacecraft are given "maximum speeds" in space, that the gigantic orbital stations can't be easily seen, monitored, and communicated with from Earth (since they all dwarf the ISS, which we can see with the un-aided eye), and the notion that humans in orbit would abandon their own species and homeworld rather than render any kind of aid against alien invaders.

While the Orbitals are larger than the ISS, the ISS also orbits at a relatively low orbital altitude in comparison (~400km).
Outcast Station orbits BOTH Earth and the Moon
Yuro Station orbits Earth at 100,000km (and is geostationary)
Laika Station orbits the Moon (passing close to L1 and L2)
Freedom Station orbits at L5 (384,400km, or the distance to the Moon)

So while they are BIGGER, they are also FARTHER AWAY making naked eye spotting difficult.

Just because they can be seen and both sides can (theoretically) send and receive radio/laser communications, does not mean that the other party is any way obligated to reply.

While the Orbitals attitude may strike you as unlikely, the following does have to be considered: what aid can they really give? Or have given in the past 300years?
-

[Blue_Lion]

the reality of why everyone uses normal rotation orbits is as mentioned due to the fact that it saves energy or delta V.

part of the issue is that based on the claimed damage of the glitterboy boom gun the stated speed of the rounds is bull crud, it just doesn't pack enough energy for the claimed effects.

another issue is as mentioned clearly most of the writers (and editors) have no flipping clue how space actually works.

like the claim that you need to have a vehicle with a minimum speed of mach 4.8 to reach escape velocity and a bunch of other issues

When we were kids, these were just numbers that translated into "really fast" or "really powerful." Now the fanbase has too many nerd degrees. While I agree with your points, I take far more issue with the fact that spacecraft are given "maximum speeds" in space, that the gigantic orbital stations can't be easily seen, monitored, and communicated with from Earth (since they all dwarf the ISS, which we can see with the un-aided eye), and the notion that humans in orbit would abandon their own species and homeworld rather than render any kind of aid against alien invaders.

While the Orbitals are larger than the ISS, the ISS also orbits at a relatively low orbital altitude in comparison (~400km).
Outcast Station orbits BOTH Earth and the Moon
Yuro Station orbits Earth at 100,000km (and is geostationary)
Laika Station orbits the Moon (passing close to L1 and L2)
Freedom Station orbits at L5 (384,400km, or the distance to the Moon)

So while they are BIGGER, they are also FARTHER AWAY making naked eye spotting difficult.

Just because they can be seen and both sides can (theoretically) send and receive radio/laser communications, does not mean that the other party is any way obligated to reply.

While the Orbitals attitude may strike you as unlikely, the following does have to be considered: what aid can they really give? Or have given in the past 300years?
-

Humans nations abadon their own all the time. Mexico is a third world country on the boarder of a 1st world. Over all the US government has done nothing to help them that was not in the US best interest.
There are tribes and nations of people that will attack or kill people of another tribe or nation on sight. Our Iraq allies will refuse medical treatment at risk of life and limb if you call the trauma Bandage a Iserellie Bandage.

Given the issue of getting supplies and people down through the debree field why would they waste their limited supplies on it.

So there is no logical reason to assume the space collines that put the earth in quorenteen would send help just because you radio them when they have been raised being told the earth is to be left alone isolated. The human factor favors them doing nothing in this case, for the same reason as we still have racism in the US. You develop a US vs them attitude it is eas to ignore them when they are in trouble.


So I think the orbirtals are as likely to help people on earth as the KKK is to help a struggling black community in the south.

[Hotrod]

the reality of why everyone uses normal rotation orbits is as mentioned due to the fact that it saves energy or delta V.

part of the issue is that based on the claimed damage of the glitterboy boom gun the stated speed of the rounds is bull crud, it just doesn't pack enough energy for the claimed effects.

another issue is as mentioned clearly most of the writers (and editors) have no flipping clue how space actually works.

like the claim that you need to have a vehicle with a minimum speed of mach 4.8 to reach escape velocity and a bunch of other issues

When we were kids, these were just numbers that translated into "really fast" or "really powerful." Now the fanbase has too many nerd degrees. While I agree with your points, I take far more issue with the fact that spacecraft are given "maximum speeds" in space, that the gigantic orbital stations can't be easily seen, monitored, and communicated with from Earth (since they all dwarf the ISS, which we can see with the un-aided eye), and the notion that humans in orbit would abandon their own species and homeworld rather than render any kind of aid against alien invaders.

While the Orbitals are larger than the ISS, the ISS also orbits at a relatively low orbital altitude in comparison (~400km).
Outcast Station orbits BOTH Earth and the Moon
Yuro Station orbits Earth at 100,000km (and is geostationary)
Laika Station orbits the Moon (passing close to L1 and L2)
Freedom Station orbits at L5 (384,400km, or the distance to the Moon)

So while they are BIGGER, they are also FARTHER AWAY making naked eye spotting difficult.

Just because they can be seen and both sides can (theoretically) send and receive radio/laser communications, does not mean that the other party is any way obligated to reply.

While the Orbitals attitude may strike you as unlikely, the following does have to be considered: what aid can they really give? Or have given in the past 300years?
-

Humans nations abadon their own all the time. Mexico is a third world country on the boarder of a 1st world. Over all the US government has done nothing to help them that was not in the US best interest.
There are tribes and nations of people that will attack or kill people of another tribe or nation on sight. Our Iraq allies will refuse medical treatment at risk of life and limb if you call the trauma Bandage a Iserellie Bandage.

Given the issue of getting supplies and people down through the debree field why would they waste their limited supplies on it.

So there is no logical reason to assume the space collines that put the earth in quorenteen would send help just because you radio them when they have been raised being told the earth is to be left alone isolated. The human factor favors them doing nothing in this case, for the same reason as we still have racism in the US. You develop a US vs them attitude it is eas to ignore them when they are in trouble.

So I think the orbirtals are as likely to help people on earth as the KKK is to help a struggling black community in the south.

Supplies are a moot point. There are a wide variety of ways in which anyone with a ship and some decent equipment could help people down below, but the biggest are the same ways that we use satellites today: communication, overhead imagery, and navigation, none of which require exotic tech. The cost of such support would be very low, since the main expense of putting up communication satellites is the giant rocket full of explosive fuel that has to push them there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they should be hailing Emperor Prosek and calling in weather reports for the warlords of Russia. I just can't accept that 100% of the people in orbit watched the Coming of the Rifts and reacted by thinking "well, screw the homeworld; they're on their own." I can't accept that none of them changed their minds from that initial reaction in 300 years. It breaks my suspension of disbelief, and it's one of several reasons why I find Mutants in Orbit to be a frustrating read.

I like the "no space" constraint of the Rifts setting, and if I could rewrite the book, I'd take a page from 2001: A Space Odyssey, and have a renegade computer intelligence running the show around Earth and the Moon, with a colony of humans on Mars (and perhaps some other places) who want to help the rest of humanity on Earth, but who are stuck in some kind of stalemate with the machines that blockade the homeworld.

[Blue_Lion]

Most of the people on rifts are 1 unaware of the orbitals and 2 lack the skills to set up satellite communications.


I so not see a reason to assume they would respond to any random radio broadcast, from a place they have been raised to ignore. The governments may believe that it the earthers learn about them they would run the risk of an attack.


In addition the people in orbit would not see any suffering of the people on the ground so would be apathetic to the suffering.

I do not think it is that the orbitals are blocking the use of satellite coms, just that most people are unware they are up there and do not have the skills to use them. After 300 years many of pre-rift satellites have likely been replaced so the earthers do not have the access codes for the ones up there. Archie seams to be the only one to have a working access codes to access the secure computer on the moon base allowing him to get the satellite codes.


Satellite coms are lost technology on rifts there is more to it than just sending up a signal.

[lather]

On the other hand, some broadcasts might not be random at all.

People in orbit could hear about the suffering.

The great orbital altitudes give more time to make/maintain contact. All you need are two ham radios. It's tech available to vagabonds.

[ShadowLogan]

Given the issue of getting supplies and people down through the debree field why would they waste their limited supplies on it.

Well the Debris field requires them to maintain it, so they could stop maintaining it.

I do agree though, the Orbitals where strapped for supplies back when the GC happened and remains so.

but the biggest are the same ways that we use satellites today: communication, overhead imagery, and navigation, none of which require exotic tech. The cost of such support would be very low, since the main expense of putting up communication satellites is the giant rocket full of explosive fuel that has to push them there.

In 2098-9? MiO strongly implies IMHO those got wiped out and created the initial debris ring. They could bring their ships in, but that would really be wasting resources that could likely be better spent elsewhere. It is strong implied though that the Orbitals came to the conclusion Earth was cut off from them. Not to mention with military satellites responding to the crisis, they could have started jamming transmissions (not saying something couldn't get through).

Communication could also be rendered difficult given "solar falre activity increased by a hundred fold" (pg56, taking about the GC), so we have solar flares going off. Plus "radiation, debris", "strange energy readings", "space-time continuum seemed torn apart"

Now by 2387AD/109PA the situation could have improved, but then who do the orbitals contact? I would also add that people from Earth might view the Orbitals as "aliens" responsible for the "attacks from space" that get mentioned (pg57), so might be suspicious of transmissions from space. Given the Orbitals dislike of aliens, they might not want to transmit in the open since the "aliens" on the surface could also intercept/receive said transmissions. So there are a lot of ways to look at it that make sense.

I just can't accept that 100% of the people in orbit watched the Coming of the Rifts and reacted by thinking "well, screw the homeworld; they're on their own." I can't accept that none of them changed their minds from that initial reaction in 300 years. It breaks my suspension of disbelief, and it's one of several reasons why I find Mutants in Orbit to be a frustrating read.

Who says that it has to be 100%, even 300 years later. There could be people with differing opinions, just they don't have the influence to change the official policy.

The Orbitals had much more pressing issues just after the CotR. They'd been cut off from Earth, and by indications "Probes sent to Earth showed a planet still in the throes of upheaval. [...] If Earth was denied them, so be it, their new life was to be among the stars"." So their impression of Earth was they are cut off and they might as well have been teleported to Venus or the Gas Giants. They couldn't go down there.

[Blue_Lion]

On the other hand, some broadcasts might not be random at all.

People in orbit could hear about the suffering.

The great orbital altitudes give more time to make/maintain contact. All you need are two ham radios. It's tech available to vagabonds.

The orbitals are likely outside the range of those given the distance to the stations. The best easily available radio on rifts has a 500 mile range while impressive(out side of line of sight radio waves range) will not reach any of the stations up there. As that means the range is not limited by line of site we can conclude that the station is out side of their range of the radios.

Orbitals likely use digital radio systems, and I doubt old anoalog ham radios are just lying around digital radios will likely have filters to so you are not talking over each other with thousands of radios being in line of sight with each other. The hull and radiation shielding of their stations and ships would interfere with signal. That means radio antennas are normally going to be on the outside of the ships with small short range radios being used for space walks.


Note it takes more than both sides having a radio to hear eachother. While we have standard chanels set aside for ham radios, radios in space or on earth might not have the same standard radio channels and many radios on earth are clearly directional.

[lather]

On the other hand, some broadcasts might not be random at all.

People in orbit could hear about the suffering.

The great orbital altitudes give more time to make/maintain contact. All you need are two ham radios. It's tech available to vagabonds.

The orbitals are likely outside the range of those given the distance to the stations. The best easily available radio on rifts has a 500 mile range while impressive(out side of line of sight radio waves range) will not reach any of the stations up there. As that means the range is not limited by line of site we can conclude that the station is out side of their range of the radios.

Orbitals likely use digital radio systems, and I doubt old anoalog ham radios are just lying around digital radios will likely have filters to so you are not talking over each other with thousands of radios being in line of sight with each other. The hull and radiation shielding of their stations and ships would interfere with signal. That means radio antennas are normally going to be on the outside of the ships with small short range radios being used for space walks.


Note it takes more than both sides having a radio to hear eachother. While we have standard chanels set aside for ham radios, radios in space or on earth might not have the same standard radio channels and many radios on earth are clearly directional.

*shrug* people are curious (and amateur radio enthusiasts are nowhere near the exception); it may take time, but it's believable they find each other over time.

As for range, amateur radio operators do bounce their signals off the Moon in EME communications. So they can reach most, possibly all, of the stations including the ones in physically impossible orbits.

[Blue_Lion]

On the other hand, some broadcasts might not be random at all.

People in orbit could hear about the suffering.

The great orbital altitudes give more time to make/maintain contact. All you need are two ham radios. It's tech available to vagabonds.

The orbitals are likely outside the range of those given the distance to the stations. The best easily available radio on rifts has a 500 mile range while impressive(out side of line of sight radio waves range) will not reach any of the stations up there. As that means the range is not limited by line of site we can conclude that the station is out side of their range of the radios.

Orbitals likely use digital radio systems, and I doubt old anoalog ham radios are just lying around digital radios will likely have filters to so you are not talking over each other with thousands of radios being in line of sight with each other. The hull and radiation shielding of their stations and ships would interfere with signal. That means radio antennas are normally going to be on the outside of the ships with small short range radios being used for space walks.


Note it takes more than both sides having a radio to hear eachother. While we have standard chanels set aside for ham radios, radios in space or on earth might not have the same standard radio channels and many radios on earth are clearly directional.

*shrug* people are curious (and amateur radio enthusiasts are nowhere near the exception); it may take time, but it's believable they find each other over time.

As for range, amateur radio operators do bounce their signals off the Moon in EME communications. So they can reach most, possibly all, of the stations including the ones in physically impossible orbits.

Well that skill is beyond what most people so in that sense it is exceptional even with modern life with many people having lots of free time. There where 726,275 registered in the US amateur radio members in 2014 at the same time there was over 300 million people in the US. So that means it is less than 1% of a population with lots of free time so it is exceptional in that it is rare. Now then take Rifts where there are fewer people and average tech and education levels are allot lower it would be even more exceptional for people like that to have the skills and the time to waste try and talk to people in space.

While some amateur radio operators do bounce signals off the moon it is not something that most them can do. Do to lack of equipment and signal. According to new York times only about 1000 hams world wide have the ability to do it. They call it "It’s the equivalent of climbing Mount Everest in amateur radio," So yeah it does sound some one exceptional for them to be able to do what you claim. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/27/tech ... 7moon.html

So I am not going to buy it is something that would be something easy for people in rifts earth to do. Because 1 the equipment is not common(no stats for it and it is rare in the modern world) 2 they lack the skill to do it 3 they do not know there is any one up there to talk to.

[lather]

On the other hand, some broadcasts might not be random at all.

People in orbit could hear about the suffering.

The great orbital altitudes give more time to make/maintain contact. All you need are two ham radios. It's tech available to vagabonds.

The orbitals are likely outside the range of those given the distance to the stations. The best easily available radio on rifts has a 500 mile range while impressive(out side of line of sight radio waves range) will not reach any of the stations up there. As that means the range is not limited by line of site we can conclude that the station is out side of their range of the radios.

Orbitals likely use digital radio systems, and I doubt old anoalog ham radios are just lying around digital radios will likely have filters to so you are not talking over each other with thousands of radios being in line of sight with each other. The hull and radiation shielding of their stations and ships would interfere with signal. That means radio antennas are normally going to be on the outside of the ships with small short range radios being used for space walks.


Note it takes more than both sides having a radio to hear eachother. While we have standard chanels set aside for ham radios, radios in space or on earth might not have the same standard radio channels and many radios on earth are clearly directional.

*shrug* people are curious (and amateur radio enthusiasts are nowhere near the exception); it may take time, but it's believable they find each other over time.

As for range, amateur radio operators do bounce their signals off the Moon in EME communications. So they can reach most, possibly all, of the stations including the ones in physically impossible orbits.

Well that skill is beyond what most people so in that sense it is exceptional even with modern life with many people having lots of free time. There where 726,275 registered in the US amateur radio members in 2014 at the same time there was over 300 million people in the US. So that means it is less than 1% of a population with lots of free time so it is exceptional in that it is rare. Now then take Rifts where there are fewer people and average tech and education levels are allot lower it would be even more exceptional for people like that to have the skills and the time to waste try and talk to people in space.

While some amateur radio operators do bounce signals off the moon it is not something that most them can do. Do to lack of equipment and signal. According to new York times only about 1000 hams world wide have the ability to do it. They call it "It’s the equivalent of climbing Mount Everest in amateur radio," So yeah it does sound some one exceptional for them to be able to do what you claim. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/27/tech ... 7moon.html

So I am not going to buy it is something that would be something easy for people in rifts earth to do. Because 1 the equipment is not common(no stats for it and it is rare in the modern world) 2 they lack the skill to do it 3 they do not know there is any one up there to talk to.

Let's not lose sight of my point and avoid misconstruing it.

I see no reason to assume all broadcasts are random. A person in orbit or on Earth can make purposeful transmissions. Then it becomes possible for people to become aware of each other. The equipment and the skills exist. If it's rare or even doesn't occur in the metaplot, then that says nothing regarding the possibility of it happening. Furthermore, accomplishing things most can't form the basis of some games and stories. Years of gaming adventure could follow finding out you're not alone.

Being unaware of the orbitals does not mean never being aware of them. It is not satellite communications; instead, it is communications between two human radio operators. The equipment does not have to be common to exist. The skills exist; climbing mountains is difficult, but that does not prevent attempts to climb mountains.

Regarding other points, they are tangential, and I'm willing to explore them only so far in this thread. There is a saying that goes something like: "history is a foreign country; they do things differently there."

Suspension of disbelief is purely subjective. For example, Yuro's orbit is physically impossible, yet we may choose to accept it is as described.

To summarize, I think it's possible, however likely or unlikely, that people in orbit and on the ground can find each other. Whether they have or haven't yet is a question for us to answer when we design our campaign's setting. Of course, if we think it's impossible, then the problem doesn't exist.

[Blue_Lion]

On the other hand, some broadcasts might not be random at all.

People in orbit could hear about the suffering.

The great orbital altitudes give more time to make/maintain contact. All you need are two ham radios. It's tech available to vagabonds.

The orbitals are likely outside the range of those given the distance to the stations. The best easily available radio on rifts has a 500 mile range while impressive(out side of line of sight radio waves range) will not reach any of the stations up there. As that means the range is not limited by line of site we can conclude that the station is out side of their range of the radios.

Orbitals likely use digital radio systems, and I doubt old anoalog ham radios are just lying around digital radios will likely have filters to so you are not talking over each other with thousands of radios being in line of sight with each other. The hull and radiation shielding of their stations and ships would interfere with signal. That means radio antennas are normally going to be on the outside of the ships with small short range radios being used for space walks.


Note it takes more than both sides having a radio to hear eachother. While we have standard chanels set aside for ham radios, radios in space or on earth might not have the same standard radio channels and many radios on earth are clearly directional.

*shrug* people are curious (and amateur radio enthusiasts are nowhere near the exception); it may take time, but it's believable they find each other over time.

As for range, amateur radio operators do bounce their signals off the Moon in EME communications. So they can reach most, possibly all, of the stations including the ones in physically impossible orbits.

Well that skill is beyond what most people so in that sense it is exceptional even with modern life with many people having lots of free time. There where 726,275 registered in the US amateur radio members in 2014 at the same time there was over 300 million people in the US. So that means it is less than 1% of a population with lots of free time so it is exceptional in that it is rare. Now then take Rifts where there are fewer people and average tech and education levels are allot lower it would be even more exceptional for people like that to have the skills and the time to waste try and talk to people in space.

While some amateur radio operators do bounce signals off the moon it is not something that most them can do. Do to lack of equipment and signal. According to new York times only about 1000 hams world wide have the ability to do it. They call it "It’s the equivalent of climbing Mount Everest in amateur radio," So yeah it does sound some one exceptional for them to be able to do what you claim. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/27/tech ... 7moon.html

So I am not going to buy it is something that would be something easy for people in rifts earth to do. Because 1 the equipment is not common(no stats for it and it is rare in the modern world) 2 they lack the skill to do it 3 they do not know there is any one up there to talk to.

Let's not lose sight of my point and avoid misconstruing it.

I see no reason to assume all broadcasts are random. A person in orbit or on Earth can make purposeful transmissions. Then it becomes possible for people to become aware of each other. The equipment and the skills exist. If it's rare or even doesn't occur in the metaplot, then that says nothing regarding the possibility of it happening. Furthermore, accomplishing things most can't form the basis of some games and stories. Years of gaming adventure could follow finding out you're not alone.

Being unaware of the orbitals does not mean never being aware of them. It is not satellite communications; instead, it is communications between two human radio operators. The equipment does not have to be common to exist. The skills exist; climbing mountains is difficult, but that does not prevent attempts to climb mountains.

Regarding other points, they are tangential, and I'm willing to explore them only so far in this thread. There is a saying that goes something like: "history is a foreign country; they do things differently there."

Suspension of disbelief is purely subjective. For example, Yuro's orbit is physically impossible, yet we may choose to accept it is as described.

To summarize, I think it's possible, however likely or unlikely, that people in orbit and on the ground can find each other. Whether they have or haven't yet is a question for us to answer when we design our campaign's setting. Of course, if we think it's impossible, then the problem doesn't exist.

I find the idea improbable to find them at random when there is no one making earth to space comms.

It is beyond what I find plausible that it would happen given the state of rifts. This is not two separate radio operators using the same type of equipment and band with.

As the game is written there is no reason to assume it would happen. With the ground finding a way to exetent radio beyound line of sight without satalights there is no reason to make radios to talk to space. The radios they do make do not have the range, even thogh they eccede line of sight by more than 10X. While a stations radios would likely be controlled by the stations government that gave up on earth so they would not likely be used. That places a big limit on it.

Even if one end made purpusfull transmision the other side would need to be using the exact same frequency or purpusly looking for it. So it would require equipment that is rare on earth person a intentally transmitting to person B. Person b having the right equipment and looking for the signal, and by some random chance they both happen to be pointing their radidos at each other as they are likely to be moving targets. That is allot of dumb luck and random things needed to pull it off. Think about it we have dedicated systems to watch space and we only are able to detect a small % of space near earth.

[lather]

You've articulated your interpretation, and I understand and appreciate it.

I have a different interpretation. It stems from five premises.

1. The large orbits of the space stations afford large intervals of time for a line of sight contact. That interval is only a handful of minutes for the International Space Station, at an altitude of about 400 km. Communications between it and the Earth require complex and networked communications systems because of its small orbit.

2. The space stations are continually transmitting in languages understood by people on Earth.

3. The space stations could broadcast over a broad spectrum of frequencies for reasons other than finding people on Earth.

4. The space stations could scan a broad spectrum of frequencies for reasons other than finding people on Earth.

5. The previous three points are applicable in general terms to people on Earth. They transmit in languages understood by people in the space stations. They could broadcast a broad spectrum of frequencies. They could scan a broad range of frequencies.

From this, I conclude it's possible somebody catches a transmission and, in turn, makes a determined effort to establish communications with the source.

A couple of quick examples.

Suppose CS radio operators catch an English language transmission of a docking operation in space. They might sit on it if they exist in a Stalinist or McCarthyist structure. But they might not, and CS intelligence could reasonably ask who are these people and what are their intentions?

Suppose a Rogue Scientist knows (or is curious to know if) people are in space. She catches an English language transmission of a docking operation in space. Now she has somewhere to start an attempt to establish communications with them.

[Hotrod]

It might be interesting to explore how we would write a Rifts Space book if we had the freedom to retcon everything space-related other than the premise of space being inaccessible to those on Rifts Earth.

[Shark_Force]

... maybe i'm just loopy from not enough sleep, combined with too lazy to double check, but... aren't the orbital communities primarily mutant animals? what "human" kinship are they supposed to have with the inhabitants of earth, exactly?

[Hotrod]

... maybe i'm just loopy from not enough sleep, combined with too lazy to double check, but... aren't the orbital communities primarily mutant animals? what "human" kinship are they supposed to have with the inhabitants of earth, exactly?

There are many humans in most of the orbital communities, and all the Moon's people are humans. That said, many are so acclimated to low gravity that they have a very hard time if they go to Earth. Mutant animals in the Rifts version of MiO (I really dislike the dual nature of that sourcebook) are created much like in Lone Star, and for much the same reason.

[Shark_Force]

... maybe i'm just loopy from not enough sleep, combined with too lazy to double check, but... aren't the orbital communities primarily mutant animals? what "human" kinship are they supposed to have with the inhabitants of earth, exactly?

There are many humans in most of the orbital communities, and all the Moon's people are humans. That said, many are so acclimated to low gravity that they have a very hard time if they go to Earth. Mutant animals in the Rifts version of MiO (I really dislike the dual nature of that sourcebook) are created much like in Lone Star, and for much the same reason.

could've swore it still had the bit where most of the humans died. i mean, yeah, there are still humans, but last i recall, it seemed to be heavily implying that there were a lot more non-humans than humans in general.

[Blue_Lion]

You've articulated your interpretation, and I understand and appreciate it.

I have a different interpretation. It stems from five premises.

1. The large orbits of the space stations afford large intervals of time for a line of sight contact. That interval is only a handful of minutes for the International Space Station, at an altitude of about 400 km. Communications between it and the Earth require complex and networked communications systems because of its small orbit.

2. The space stations are continually transmitting in languages understood by people on Earth.

3. The space stations could broadcast over a broad spectrum of frequencies for reasons other than finding people on Earth.

4. The space stations could scan a broad spectrum of frequencies for reasons other than finding people on Earth.

5. The previous three points are applicable in general terms to people on Earth. They transmit in languages understood by people in the space stations. They could broadcast a broad spectrum of frequencies. They could scan a broad range of frequencies.

From this, I conclude it's possible somebody catches a transmission and, in turn, makes a determined effort to establish communications with the source.

A couple of quick examples.

Suppose CS radio operators catch an English language transmission of a docking operation in space. They might sit on it if they exist in a Stalinist or McCarthyist structure. But they might not, and CS intelligence could reasonably ask who are these people and what are their intentions?

Suppose a Rogue Scientist knows (or is curious to know if) people are in space. She catches an English language transmission of a docking operation in space. Now she has somewhere to start an attempt to establish communications with them.

1 While the stations may have extended line of sight time, earth to space comms are directional. Near earth satelights might allow for omni directional but to punch through to the space stations would require more power and to avoid radio jamming. Simply put it is not a mater of transmitting and any one up there can hear it is a matter of pointing your attenna at just the right spot a skill people of earth do not have.

2 It is very hard to transmit and hear on the same frequency at the same time so a contuous transmisition can not establish two way comms.

3 They could that would be unreasonable, they likely use a set of standard channels for most their comms, the frequencies used in space may not be the same ones used on earth.

4 Scanning other radio frequencies could be done for other reason but typically directional when it comes to space. I do not have the mutant in orbit books but what is the ranange of their radios.

5 they could but as I pointed out they lack a reason to build earth to space comms so space stations are outside of their reach. In additional the rifts release allot of interference. That means they could have been driven to different frequencies than space.

So even if some one managed to intercept a communication from space, earth based societies lack the radios equipment to talk to space (do not have the range needed) and lack the skill/equipment to track orbitals objects.

Basically it requires to much dumb luck for me with my tactical radio back ground for me consider it to be a plausible situation.

The close satellite comes used by things with standard antennas is not likely possible in rifts because they fall out of orbit at a fairly regular interval so after 300 years there would be none left. The range of the space statins would require focused directional antenna to reach. (same is true of most long range two way radio comms, omni directional is typically short range, if I recall the rule of thumb is double the range 1/4 the power.)

To put it another way if earth based comms have a intended range of 500 miles(beyond normal line of sight limit) and space based comms have a intended range of 10,000 miles they would both be out of range by more than 4 times (stations are over 40K miles away by the stats listed) with a level signal degradation that would not allow for reliable communication. In that case it is not plausible to randomly hear one side and establish 2 way comms to an object in space.

[lather]

Since you only disagreed with but did not invalidate the premises, the conclusion stands. It is possible to transmit and receive intelligible messages. For example, a mobile antenna addresses the need for directionality.

Earth-based societies may lack the equipment. I don't really know; I do not pay a lot of attention to pieces of equipment and pay even less to metaplot, but I'll accept your representation. Still, their lack of equipment is not a lack of capacity to build it. Various STEM skills provide all they need. The reasons to do these things arise from curiosity or knowledge. Mathematicians found Neptune, then told the astronomers where to look. Or it could be by dumb luck. The cosmic background was discovered by happy accident.

[Mack]

... maybe i'm just loopy from not enough sleep, combined with too lazy to double check, but... aren't the orbital communities primarily mutant animals? what "human" kinship are they supposed to have with the inhabitants of earth, exactly?

There are many humans in most of the orbital communities, and all the Moon's people are humans. That said, many are so acclimated to low gravity that they have a very hard time if they go to Earth. Mutant animals in the Rifts version of MiO (I really dislike the dual nature of that sourcebook) are created much like in Lone Star, and for much the same reason.

could've swore it still had the bit where most of the humans died. i mean, yeah, there are still humans, but last i recall, it seemed to be heavily implying that there were a lot more non-humans than humans in general.

You may be thinking of the "After the Bomb" section versus the "Rifts" section.

[Blue_Lion]

Since you only disagreed with but did not invalidate the premises, the conclusion stands. It is possible to transmit and receive intelligible messages. For example, a mobile antenna addresses the need for directionality.

Earth-based societies may lack the equipment. I don't really know; I do not pay a lot of attention to pieces of equipment and pay even less to metaplot, but I'll accept your representation. Still, their lack of equipment is not a lack of capacity to build it. Various STEM skills provide all they need. The reasons to do these things arise from curiosity or knowledge. Mathematicians found Neptune, then told the astronomers where to look. Or it could be by dumb luck. The cosmic background was discovered by happy accident.

You see the part about rang that does invalid the premises.(infact I was pointing out flaws in the premises and why it is not likely). Why because there is no industral center with a need to make radios to talk that far in space when the solved line of sight issue on radios.

The premises just is not plausable given what we know about rifts tech.

[lather]

Since you only disagreed with but did not invalidate the premises, the conclusion stands. It is possible to transmit and receive intelligible messages. For example, a mobile antenna addresses the need for directionality.

Earth-based societies may lack the equipment. I don't really know; I do not pay a lot of attention to pieces of equipment and pay even less to metaplot, but I'll accept your representation. Still, their lack of equipment is not a lack of capacity to build it. Various STEM skills provide all they need. The reasons to do these things arise from curiosity or knowledge. Mathematicians found Neptune, then told the astronomers where to look. Or it could be by dumb luck. The cosmic background was discovered by happy accident.

You see the part about rang that does invalid the premises.(infact I was pointing out flaws in the premises and why it is not likely). Why because there is no industral center with a need to make radios to talk that far in space when the solved line of sight issue on radios.

The premises just is not plausable given what we know about rifts tech.

We are never told the lack of the equipment we are talking about is in any way related to a lack of industry so range is not a problem. There are no reasons they can't overcome the technical challenges. I have no interest in shackling thought to the useless strict interpretation that if it isn't in canon then it's nowhere until it's in canon; I'm not going to do so. In any case, other options exist. They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

[Killer Cyborg]

They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

Techno-Wizardry is only limited by the Game Master.

[lather]

They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

Techno-Wizardry is only limited by the Game Master.

Same difference.

[Blue_Lion]

Since you only disagreed with but did not invalidate the premises, the conclusion stands. It is possible to transmit and receive intelligible messages. For example, a mobile antenna addresses the need for directionality.

Earth-based societies may lack the equipment. I don't really know; I do not pay a lot of attention to pieces of equipment and pay even less to metaplot, but I'll accept your representation. Still, their lack of equipment is not a lack of capacity to build it. Various STEM skills provide all they need. The reasons to do these things arise from curiosity or knowledge. Mathematicians found Neptune, then told the astronomers where to look. Or it could be by dumb luck. The cosmic background was discovered by happy accident.

You see the part about rang that does invalid the premises.(infact I was pointing out flaws in the premises and why it is not likely). Why because there is no industral center with a need to make radios to talk that far in space when the solved line of sight issue on radios.

The premises just is not plausable given what we know about rifts tech.

We are never told the lack of the equipment we are talking about is in any way related to a lack of industry so range is not a problem. There are no reasons they can't overcome the technical challenges. I have no interest in shackling thought to the useless strict interpretation that if it isn't in canon then it's nowhere until it's in canon; I'm not going to do so. In any case, other options exist. They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

We are told the stats for the radios they use. We are told they have no contact with space. So we can use the range given to know it is out of range, because we know the radios they use. So using the stats for the radios they use we know it is out of range. Given the only way I know for them to have radios capable of reaching beyond line of sight is bouncing of the upper atmosphere we can determine the main radios they use are not in the right range frequency for talking to space. So we know the radios they use there is no reason for them to be making radios for talking to deep space so industry is irrelevant. Any radios that do have the ability to talk to space are over 300 years old with no maintance so not likely to be usable. So range is the most relevant factor in deterring if it is a plausible concept. Space is lost so space comms are lost. The skill to use satellite coms is not part of radio skills in rifts as it would be exotic, so in general no one has the skill to track and talk to orbitals satellites and stations.

So it is not plausible that some random rogue scientist would be able to set up two way space comms. It is not plausible that some random nation would set up space comms.

Note to this there are few known acceptations. 1 archie 3 has the ability to use satellite coms and we are told he is the only one with the ability to do so(so there is cannon indicating others do not have space comms), and 2 there is a space faring race in SA with colonies in our solar system. And 3 Atlanatas would have the technology but there is nothing indicating they have a interest in talking to the people in orbit and if they learned of them would probably start enslaving them.


Space lacks TW. The definition of TW is combining magic and technology. The only cannon example of long range tw communications is ley line transmission Phaseworld that was only heard by another magic using race.

As the people in orbit know that a hostile space capable race lives on earth they are not going to randomly send down communications to it and risk more threats leaving the planet they work so hard to maintain isolation from. That means any attempt to do so would not be with the stations main space to earth communication network but instead smaller communications with shorter range. So is not plausible they would initiate contact.

[lather]

Since you only disagreed with but did not invalidate the premises, the conclusion stands. It is possible to transmit and receive intelligible messages. For example, a mobile antenna addresses the need for directionality.

Earth-based societies may lack the equipment. I don't really know; I do not pay a lot of attention to pieces of equipment and pay even less to metaplot, but I'll accept your representation. Still, their lack of equipment is not a lack of capacity to build it. Various STEM skills provide all they need. The reasons to do these things arise from curiosity or knowledge. Mathematicians found Neptune, then told the astronomers where to look. Or it could be by dumb luck. The cosmic background was discovered by happy accident.

You see the part about rang that does invalid the premises.(infact I was pointing out flaws in the premises and why it is not likely). Why because there is no industral center with a need to make radios to talk that far in space when the solved line of sight issue on radios.

The premises just is not plausable given what we know about rifts tech.

We are never told the lack of the equipment we are talking about is in any way related to a lack of industry so range is not a problem. There are no reasons they can't overcome the technical challenges. I have no interest in shackling thought to the useless strict interpretation that if it isn't in canon then it's nowhere until it's in canon; I'm not going to do so. In any case, other options exist. They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

We are told the stats for the radios they use. We are told they have no contact with space. So we can use the range given to know it is out of range, because we know the radios they use. So using the stats for the radios they use we know it is out of range. Given the only way I know for them to have radios capable of reaching beyond line of sight is bouncing of the upper atmosphere we can determine the main radios they use are not in the right range frequency for talking to space. So we know the radios they use there is no reason for them to be making radios for talking to deep space so industry is irrelevant. Any radios that do have the ability to talk to space are over 300 years old with no maintance so not likely to be usable. So range is the most relevant factor in deterring if it is a plausible concept. Space is lost so space comms are lost. The skill to use satellite coms is not part of radio skills in rifts as it would be exotic, so in general no one has the skill to track and talk to orbitals satellites and stations.

So it is not plausible that some random rogue scientist would be able to set up two way space comms. It is not plausible that some random nation would set up space comms.

Note to this there are few known acceptations. 1 archie 3 has the ability to use satellite coms and we are told he is the only one with the ability to do so(so there is cannon indicating others do not have space comms), and 2 there is a space faring race in SA with colonies in our solar system. And 3 Atlanatas would have the technology but there is nothing indicating they have a interest in talking to the people in orbit and if they learned of them would probably start enslaving them.


Space lacks TW. The definition of TW is combining magic and technology. The only cannon example of long range tw communications is ley line transmission Phaseworld that was only heard by another magic using race.

As the people in orbit know that a hostile space capable race lives on earth they are not going to randomly send down communications to it and risk more threats leaving the planet they work so hard to maintain isolation from. That means any attempt to do so would not be with the stations main space to earth communication network but instead smaller communications with shorter range. So is not plausible they would initiate contact.

Again, I'm not going to discuss my ideas in terms of yours (just like I don't discuss yours in terms of mine). I reject the narrow view that what is in the canon is all that is and all that is possible.
I am not going to stop a TW from building a device because nobody else has built such a device.
I am not going to stop a character from using a skill because others may or may not have it.
I wouldn't want to play in such a game and I wouldn't impose such a game on anybody.
Everything I said either exists or is achievable. Whether or not they occur is a game choice.
From a sci-fi perspective, if I can accept Yuro's ridiculous orbit, then I need not give long-range radio communications a second thought.

[Blue_Lion]

Since you only disagreed with but did not invalidate the premises, the conclusion stands. It is possible to transmit and receive intelligible messages. For example, a mobile antenna addresses the need for directionality.

Earth-based societies may lack the equipment. I don't really know; I do not pay a lot of attention to pieces of equipment and pay even less to metaplot, but I'll accept your representation. Still, their lack of equipment is not a lack of capacity to build it. Various STEM skills provide all they need. The reasons to do these things arise from curiosity or knowledge. Mathematicians found Neptune, then told the astronomers where to look. Or it could be by dumb luck. The cosmic background was discovered by happy accident.

You see the part about rang that does invalid the premises.(infact I was pointing out flaws in the premises and why it is not likely). Why because there is no industral center with a need to make radios to talk that far in space when the solved line of sight issue on radios.

The premises just is not plausable given what we know about rifts tech.

We are never told the lack of the equipment we are talking about is in any way related to a lack of industry so range is not a problem. There are no reasons they can't overcome the technical challenges. I have no interest in shackling thought to the useless strict interpretation that if it isn't in canon then it's nowhere until it's in canon; I'm not going to do so. In any case, other options exist. They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

We are told the stats for the radios they use. We are told they have no contact with space. So we can use the range given to know it is out of range, because we know the radios they use. So using the stats for the radios they use we know it is out of range. Given the only way I know for them to have radios capable of reaching beyond line of sight is bouncing of the upper atmosphere we can determine the main radios they use are not in the right range frequency for talking to space. So we know the radios they use there is no reason for them to be making radios for talking to deep space so industry is irrelevant. Any radios that do have the ability to talk to space are over 300 years old with no maintance so not likely to be usable. So range is the most relevant factor in deterring if it is a plausible concept. Space is lost so space comms are lost. The skill to use satellite coms is not part of radio skills in rifts as it would be exotic, so in general no one has the skill to track and talk to orbitals satellites and stations.

So it is not plausible that some random rogue scientist would be able to set up two way space comms. It is not plausible that some random nation would set up space comms.

Note to this there are few known acceptations. 1 archie 3 has the ability to use satellite coms and we are told he is the only one with the ability to do so(so there is cannon indicating others do not have space comms), and 2 there is a space faring race in SA with colonies in our solar system. And 3 Atlanatas would have the technology but there is nothing indicating they have a interest in talking to the people in orbit and if they learned of them would probably start enslaving them.


Space lacks TW. The definition of TW is combining magic and technology. The only cannon example of long range tw communications is ley line transmission Phaseworld that was only heard by another magic using race.

As the people in orbit know that a hostile space capable race lives on earth they are not going to randomly send down communications to it and risk more threats leaving the planet they work so hard to maintain isolation from. That means any attempt to do so would not be with the stations main space to earth communication network but instead smaller communications with shorter range. So is not plausible they would initiate contact.

Again, I'm not going to discuss my ideas in terms of yours (just like I don't discuss yours in terms of mine). I reject the narrow view that what is in the canon is all that is and all that is possible.
I am not going to stop a TW from building a device because nobody else has built such a device.
I am not going to stop a character from using a skill because others may or may not have it.
I wouldn't want to play in such a game and I wouldn't impose such a game on anybody.
Everything I said either exists or is achievable. Whether or not they occur is a game choice.
From a sci-fi perspective, if I can accept Yuro's ridiculous orbit, then I need not give long-range radio communications a second thought.

So your point it ignore what cannon says and do it because you think they can. Got it. While you can do it in your game does not make it plausible by canon.
There is no stated radio on rifts with that range and no practical reason for any one to build new ones with no space program or statelets. So the idea it just happens is not plausible. There needs to be a plausible reason for it to happen in the first place.

[lather]

I'm not ignoring canon (although we do as a basic necessity for playing Rifts). I've considered the canon and concluded some things are possible. In some places, it is not only possible but also a part of the daily routine.
What I am ignoring is the imposition of ridiculous preconditions like because people do not now that they never will.
As I've already explained, the plausible reason for it to occur is a character chooses to try and there are a sufficient number of in-game reasons why they would try.
I am not going to railroad a character to safeguard the metaplot.
If you have a compelling case as to why I should, I'll give it consideration.

[Killer Cyborg]

They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

Techno-Wizardry is only limited by the Game Master.

Same difference.

Not at all.
Game masters ruling something out doesn't mean that those things cannot be imagined.

[lather]

They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

Techno-Wizardry is only limited by the Game Master.

Same difference.

Not at all.
Game masters ruling something out doesn't mean that those things cannot be imagined.

And Game Masters determine the exact function of TW devices by using their imaginations.

[Curbludgeon]

As I've increasingly noticed on this forum, there's a positive correlation between a person's willingness to run a post through a spell check and my likelihood to agree with their opinion.

It seems easiest to imagine that a person on one of the orbital stations would attempt to circumvent any societal prohibitions against contact with the surface and send out a pirated broadband unencrypted how-do-you-do. They would have the available tech, a more reasonable rationale than perhaps had by those at the base of a gravity well, an inherent curiosity that those unaware of the orbital peoples might lack and, as a story hook, the most to potentially gain. There are enough inherent problems in Rifts Earth having both the technology and population that it does that there's no sufficient argument against global transit on a small scale, much less attempts by farmboys with ham radios to get good at fiddlin' around. To pretend that no character attempts to pull a small scale SETI when there is a whole subsection of skills applicable to such is willfully myopic.

This is why I have in the past gone with, as I said earlier, the troposphere being bisected with a ley sphere/entity wall. Even limiting nuclear powered airborne power armor that can cross the Atlantic in under a day to similar altitudes as TW biplanes is a stopgap solution. Verisimilitude demands that if you don't want players to escape Earth's atmosphere than flinging the occasional asteroid into a counter orbital debris field is insufficent.

[Killer Cyborg]

They could turn to techno-wizardry which is truly limited only by imagination, by definition.

Techno-Wizardry is only limited by the Game Master.

Same difference.

Not at all.
Game masters ruling something out doesn't mean that those things cannot be imagined.

And Game Masters determine the exact function of TW devices by using their imaginations.

Sure. But, again, just because they imagine something doesn't mean that they'll allow it.
And whether or not they allow it is the limiting factor, not whether or not they can imagine it.
A lot of GMs will nix a TW device specifically because they can imagine how it would affect the game world or adventure, not because they can't.

[lather]

I said nothing about what can or cannot be imagined. I spoke only of limits by imagination, not limits of imagination. RUE says, "It is always the Game Master's call as to exactly how something turns out." That is not the limit of imagination; it is the imagined limit, which is supplied by the Game Master.

[Killer Cyborg]

I said nothing about what can or cannot be imagined. I spoke only of limits by imagination, not limits of imagination. RUE says, "It is always the Game Master's call as to exactly how something turns out." That is not the limit of imagination; it is the imagined limit, which is supplied by the Game Master.

You said "truly limited only by imagination."
That's not the same as being limited by the GM, which is the actual case.
You can have fun trying to argue your semantic interpretations of "of" vs "by," but it'll be a solo adventure.

[Blue_Lion]

As I've increasingly noticed on this forum, there's a positive correlation between a person's willingness to run a post through a spell check and my likelihood to agree with their opinion.

It seems easiest to imagine that a person on one of the orbital stations would attempt to circumvent any societal prohibitions against contact with the surface and send out a pirated broadband unencrypted how-do-you-do. They would have the available tech, a more reasonable rationale than perhaps had by those at the base of a gravity well, an inherent curiosity that those unaware of the orbital peoples might lack and, as a story hook, the most to potentially gain. There are enough inherent problems in Rifts Earth having both the technology and population that it does that there's no sufficient argument against global transit on a small scale, much less attempts by farmboys with ham radios to get good at fiddlin' around. To pretend that no character attempts to pull a small scale SETI when there is a whole subsection of skills applicable to such is willfully myopic.

This is why I have in the past gone with, as I said earlier, the troposphere being bisected with a ley sphere/entity wall. Even limiting nuclear powered airborne power armor that can cross the Atlantic in under a day to similar altitudes as TW biplanes is a stopgap solution. Verisimilitude demands that if you don't want players to escape Earth's atmosphere than flinging the occasional asteroid into a counter orbital debris field is insufficent.

I would advise you stop starting off post with things that can be seen as personal attacks against posters. (More so when it is an attack about spell check when you did not do it yourself.)


The population of rifts is as I understand it relatively small. But there is limited small scale global transport. Triax in Germany sends good to sale in North America. However over all travel in rifts is allot more dangerous than it is today.

Exploration and finding new places is a lot harder in rifts and giving the low populations of most countries and the need to deal with immanent real threats organized expedition. Many of the would be explores are exploring other dimensions.

SETI serves no practical intent in rifts. They already know about life forms not indigenous to earth and there is no nation with a space program. Because right or wrong most believe there is a barrier stropping them from leaving.

SETI requires space, safety and resources for something that serves no practice purpose not something you see small nations with immanent danger do. Without a nation to fund it becomes even less likely. There is no practical need for any manufacture to make deep space radios, and the radios they do use may not be on compatible band with.

[lather]

Exploration and finding new places is a lot harder in rifts and giving the low populations of most countries and the need to deal with immanent real threats organized expedition. Many of the would be explores are exploring other dimensions.

Basically, you're providing reasons why people would not, and extrapolating that to will never. As long as you impose that thinking on the ideas of others, all you're doing is being dismissive of those ideas. You don't have to agree that Rifts isn't Charlie Brown who never grows, learns, or adapts, but you don't have to try to force others to adopt the belief that Rifts is like Charlie Brown either..

You said "truly limited only by imagination."

Of course, I said more than that You purposefully misrepresented me and I'm not going to bother addressing posts that lack integrity.

[Curbludgeon]

(In a convivial spirit of positive habit formation, I had allotted some hope towards Blue_Lion calling a Muphry's.)

As was perhaps not made explicitly clear, I think the lion's share of surface/orbital radio contact will lie with those in orbit. I'm not looking up station locations to justify this, but there's some narrative resonance with Outcast Station trying to contact Earth. This lowers the technical requirements of the planetbound considerably. There is also a strong argument that Arkhon transmissions could be intercepted by the Silver River Republics or Megaversal Legion, and subsequently disseminated.

As far as difficulty in terrestrial exploration, it cant help but seem largely artificial given Earth's population and capacities*. Teleportation aside, many power armors have no real problem with sinking into the ocean when needing to cool their jets during transoceanic flights. While pirates and ley line storms make for good random encounters, and would have an effect on commerce, individual couriers could acquit themselves admirably, and might quickly be seen as useful by the New Navy, NGR, and others.

*Is there a good accounting of Earth's population available, that some presumably handsome friend to animals and children could provide? I've been told roughly ~350 million before, which seems like it must treat Africa similarly to India and the Middle East.

[Axelmania]

One way to explain the orbital barrier: a "herald of Galactus" type situation where a Demon Knight or ten constantly patrol and hide amongst the debris and attack anything crossing it, so as to keep the delicious morsels on the planet contained for Cormal to eat.