?MDC Disentanglement?

[KillWatch]

hey guys...
MDC just never made sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

1) Rifts says that earth had MDC gear before the rifts. So at some point MDC weapons were on a strictly SDC biome world

2) Rifts magic and psionics however, only do MDC because of the Dragon Line environment...
-Rune Weapons become MDC. WHy? Aren't they self contained? What if they were in an area of 0 magic energy? would they then be normal weapons or even do no damage since they seem to be affected by their environment?
-Three galaxies: I would assume that within the three galaxies there are SDC worlds. does the magic rich environment of "my" world end at the atmosphere, turning me from a MDC engine of death to a relative party magician? Conversely, shouldn't there also be worlds where the environment makes MDC would be creatures into Micro DC Creatures?

3) how are humans on rifts earth still a thing? Every book has a new mass of MDC creatures that would easily destroy a MDC fortified village. Sometimes they are big like fury beetles, sometimes they are small like lasae. A crafty psychopath with a laser scalpal can wipe out a whole town. These outlying villages aren't equipped for MDC battles. As far as I can tell they MIGHT have a rifle or two. Maybe they got lucky with a MDC Merc sherriff. but if anything really wanted to avoid a one on one with that guy, he would be the only one left standing in a town full of destroyed buildings and corpses. A single lasae, 1 foot tall, SNPS 2 (5d6x100 punch, 6d6x100 claw or 2d6 bite(?!?!?)), invisibility, with HF 12, and MDC: 66, or 6600 SDC, Prowl at 71, Regenerates at 10 per second, could take out soooo many people humans.

4) why the separation between MDC and SDC? For much of humanity who isn't living in the MDC defended mega city states, human farm villages are still human farm villages, made of wood, with sdc weapons, structures, and tools. But bring that same lasae into BTS suddenly it is a shell of its former self. why would it want to go these realms at all when they can cause so much death on worlds like Rifts?
-If TECH is able to survive the trip through rifts or across space, why not magic, psionics, the supernatural?

what is the point of the different strength categories and MDC? what are some problems and solutions you've come up with

Enlighten me,please

[dreicunan]

:?
hey guys...
MDC just never made sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

1) Rifts says that earth had MDC gear before the rifts. So at some point MDC weapons were on a strictly SDC biome world

2) Rifts magic and psionics however, only do MDC because of the Dragon Line environment...
-Rune Weapons become MDC. WHy? Aren't they self contained? What if they were in an area of 0 magic energy? would they then be normal weapons or even do no damage since they seem to be affected by their environment?
-Three galaxies: I would assume that within the three galaxies there are SDC worlds. does the magic rich environment of "my" world end at the atmosphere, turning me from a MDC engine of death to a relative party magician? Conversely, shouldn't there also be worlds where the environment makes MDC would be creatures into Micro DC Creatures?

3) how are humans on rifts earth still a thing? Every book has a new mass of MDC creatures that would easily destroy a MDC fortified village. Sometimes they are big like fury beetles, sometimes they are small like lasae. A crafty psychopath with a laser scalpal can wipe out a whole town. These outlying villages aren't equipped for MDC battles. As far as I can tell they MIGHT have a rifle or two. Maybe they got lucky with a MDC Merc sherriff. but if anything really wanted to avoid a one on one with that guy, he would be the only one left standing in a town full of destroyed buildings and corpses. A single lasae, 1 foot tall, SNPS 2 (5d6x100 punch, 6d6x100 claw or 2d6 bite(?!?!?)), invisibility, with HF 12, and MDC: 66, or 6600 SDC, Prowl at 71, Regenerates at 10 per second, could take out soooo many people humans.

4) why the separation between MDC and SDC? For much of humanity who isn't living in the MDC defended mega city states, human farm villages are still human farm villages, made of wood, with sdc weapons, structures, and tools. But bring that same lasae into BTS suddenly it is a shell of its former self. why would it want to go these realms at all when they can cause so much death on worlds like Rifts?
-If TECH is able to survive the trip through rifts or across space, why not magic, psionics, the supernatural?

what is the point of the different strength categories and MDC? what are some problems and solutions you've come up with

Enlighten me,please

MDC made good sense in Robotech as a way to show scale of weapons and armor. It doesn't make nearly as much sense in other settings.

[Killer Cyborg]

:?
hey guys...
MDC just never made sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

1) Rifts says that earth had MDC gear before the rifts. So at some point MDC weapons were on a strictly SDC biome world

And?

2) Rifts magic and psionics however, only do MDC because of the Dragon Line environment...
-Rune Weapons become MDC. WHy? Aren't they self contained? What if they were in an area of 0 magic energy? would they then be normal weapons or even do no damage since they seem to be affected by their environment?
-Three galaxies: I would assume that within the three galaxies there are SDC worlds. does the magic rich environment of "my" world end at the atmosphere, turning me from a MDC engine of death to a relative party magician? Conversely, shouldn't there also be worlds where the environment makes MDC would be creatures into Micro DC Creatures?

Originally it was the magic-rich nature of Rifts Earth that made magic/supernatural things mega-damage while they were in that setting.
But later Palladium decided that there are just MDC worlds where things can be MDC, and SDC worlds where things can't be MDC.
Does that help?

3) how are humans on rifts earth still a thing? Every book has a new mass of MDC creatures that would easily destroy a MDC fortified village.

Sure, but how many of those creatures ARE there? And where are they located? And what are their motivations?
All that stuff matters.
A lot of it is determined by the GM.

Sometimes they are big like fury beetles, sometimes they are small like lasae. A crafty psychopath with a laser scalpal can wipe out a whole town.

Crafty townsfolk could outwit and stop the psychopath.
And now you have an adventure plot.

These outlying villages aren't equipped for MDC battles. As far as I can tell they MIGHT have a rifle or two. Maybe they got lucky with a MDC Merc sherriff. but if anything really wanted to avoid a one on one with that guy, he would be the only one left standing in a town full of destroyed buildings and corpses. A single lasae, 1 foot tall, SNPS 2 (5d6x100 punch, 6d6x100 claw or 2d6 bite(?!?!?)), invisibility, with HF 12, and MDC: 66, or 6600 SDC, Prowl at 71, Regenerates at 10 per second, could take out soooo many people humans.

Most places probably don't see much Mega-Damage combat.
Yes, a single lasae might be able to wipe out a small community. That probably happens sometimes.
Other times, the single Lasae might get eaten by a dinosaur or something before he gets to the town.
It's not like all monsters and animals are working together. As with the real world, there would be a complex ecology, complete with predation.

4) why the separation between MDC and SDC? For much of humanity who isn't living in the MDC defended mega city states, human farm villages are still human farm villages, made of wood, with sdc weapons, structures, and tools. But bring that same lasae into BTS suddenly it is a shell of its former self. why would it want to go these realms at all when they can cause so much death on worlds like Rifts?

No Boom Guns on BtS Earth.
No Psi-Stalkers.
No Coalition.
Rifts Earth is pretty risky for most things: now matter how tough you are, you might run into something bigger.
Other than that, I can't say much about the motivations of lasae, nor how much choice they get in where they go.

-If TECH is able to survive the trip through rifts or across space, why not magic, psionics, the supernatural?

I give up. Why not?
What are you talking about?

what is the point of the different strength categories and MDC?

To simulate different power levels.

[The Beast]

To add to what KC said, in the original conversion book supernatural creatures lost something like 70% of their MDC when they went to low-magic MDC settings.

[SpiritInterface]

Chaos Earth is where Palladium tries to bridge the gap between SDC and MDC. Nema is where the Golden age Rift tech comes from.

Originally Palladium had the SDC system with Palladium Fantasy and Introduced the MDC system in Robotech to create a world where giant robots and giant aliens can interact on a much grander scale with out having to use a massive number of dice, or ridiculous multiples. They chose to use the MDC system with Rifts so the could use the grand scale where Dragons, Demons, Giant Robot and Mecha could be running around together. Humans only survive in such an environment because they are prolific breeders who are incredibly clever and can do incredible thing when they work together in large groups. Humans have the lifespan of a mayfly in an MDC environment without some sort of MDC protection, whether it is MDC body armor or MDC city walls.

[Killer Cyborg]

Humans only survive in such an environment because they are prolific breeders who are incredibly clever and can do incredible thing when they work together in large groups. Humans have the lifespan of a mayfly in an MDC environment without some sort of MDC protection, whether it is MDC body armor or MDC city walls.

Well, all of that, plus the fact that mega-damage is "rare."
Humans today, in the real world, wouldn't stand much of a chance if they had to fistfight a tank... but we're not in danger of extinction simply because most of us don't have to do that sort of thing in our daily lives.
The books don't ever give a clear picture on how common mega-damage (and, more specifically, the threat of being killed by mega-damage monsters) IS, but it's pretty clear that the odds of encountering and getting killed by a mega-damage creature are lower than the odds of surviving to breeding age and beyond.

Just because there are monsters somewhere in the world doesn't mean that they're in your part of the world, or that they've been there in the past d10 decades.

[Jorick]

I think MDC actually makes more sense than SDC, in terms of simulating the survivability of a human in any situation, including those we are actually familiar with in real life.

A man with a gun can kill lots of people, because one bullet is usually much more than enough to do so. One shot, one kill (like MDC). Not a full magazine of a pistol (depending on rolls) to maybe kill a particularly muscly human (SDC). There are lots of guns and lots of people who try to use them a lot. Despite enormous amounts of people dying very easily due to violence, human population grows.

A 2 inch knife will do it without much trouble. A 2 inch knife does like 1 SDC. At least with hand weapons one can make the claim that the damage roll approximates user error and opponent movement, or something. In which case, the failure rate of bullets in the SDC system is absurd.

People have survived for millennia in places like Africa and Australia, where plants can poke you and you die, and most things that move can do the same. African villages are often beset by crocodiles and lions. It matters not that they "do SDC damage." A crocodile kills you the second you're in its jaws. Most of the rest of the world isn't much different.

There are trillions of viruses floating all over the place. Lots of people die because of them. Lots and lots. Indeed, tripping and falling is often enough. Yet, wonder of wonders, the human species perseveres.

So if crocodiles and viruses and armies can't, or won't, finish the job, neither can, or will (and for the same reasons) T-Rexes and bug-men and whatever.

In the few cases where we know a power maybe could, they either have reasons not to (Atlantis) or someone tries to do something about it (Xiticix, 4 Horsemen, Hades, etc. etc. etc.). Most of the significant stuff that came through the Rifts was actually as interested in civilization and order and life as are real humans (and their understanding of the value of other lives and orders and civilizations runs the gamut as well). And just like in the real world, one shot will kill you.

[SpiritInterface]

Humans only survive in such an environment because they are prolific breeders who are incredibly clever and can do incredible thing when they work together in large groups. Humans have the lifespan of a mayfly in an MDC environment without some sort of MDC protection, whether it is MDC body armor or MDC city walls.

Well, all of that, plus the fact that mega-damage is "rare."
Humans today, in the real world, wouldn't stand much of a chance if they had to fistfight a tank... but we're not in danger of extinction simply because most of us don't have to do that sort of thing in our daily lives.
The books don't ever give a clear picture on how common mega-damage (and, more specifically, the threat of being killed by mega-damage monsters) IS, but it's pretty clear that the odds of encountering and getting killed by a mega-damage creature are lower than the odds of surviving to breeding age and beyond.

Just because there are monsters somewhere in the world doesn't mean that they're in your part of the world, or that they've been there in the past d10 decades.

Paladium and Siembieda have been inconsistent in how rare MDC is. From the different Rift books you get the impression that there are vast swaths of wilderness swarming with MDC creatures, and other places where they are rare. Places where humans live only behind High MDC walls that are heavily defended and other places where medieval villages or wild west frontier towns dot the landscape. Places where everybody walks around in some sort of MDC protection and carries MDC weapons and other places where carrying an MDC weapon is a Capitol Offense.

[Killer Cyborg]

Humans only survive in such an environment because they are prolific breeders who are incredibly clever and can do incredible thing when they work together in large groups. Humans have the lifespan of a mayfly in an MDC environment without some sort of MDC protection, whether it is MDC body armor or MDC city walls.

Well, all of that, plus the fact that mega-damage is "rare."
Humans today, in the real world, wouldn't stand much of a chance if they had to fistfight a tank... but we're not in danger of extinction simply because most of us don't have to do that sort of thing in our daily lives.
The books don't ever give a clear picture on how common mega-damage (and, more specifically, the threat of being killed by mega-damage monsters) IS, but it's pretty clear that the odds of encountering and getting killed by a mega-damage creature are lower than the odds of surviving to breeding age and beyond.

Just because there are monsters somewhere in the world doesn't mean that they're in your part of the world, or that they've been there in the past d10 decades.

Paladium and Siembieda have been inconsistent in how rare MDC is. From the different Rift books you get the impression that there are vast swaths of wilderness swarming with MDC creatures, and other places where they are rare.

I'd say that in some books we can get the impression that there are swarms of MDC creatures, and in other places we're flat-out told that mega-damage is rare, and SDC is still the norm.

Flat-out telling wins over impressions that we may get. Or, at least, it should.

Here's one example, where Tarn explains how there can be lots of MDC critters, AND they can still be rare:
RUE P. 19, from Erin Tarn:
"I have had city folk question how it can be with all the fabled towns, tribes, clans, D-Bees and monsters they hear about, that one doesn't stumble over one hiding behind every tree. It doesn't work that way. The wildlife hides from intruders like us, the innocent animals run to avoid becoming hunted, and the predators watch from a nervous distance at least until they are ready to strike. People hear there may be hundred, thousands, even tens of thousands of a particular species, but they forget that number is spread across vast expanses of land, or that perhaps as few as one or two or a dozen may live in any given area. A predator like a mountain lion, for example, will consider one particular area that might cover 100 or 200 square miles as its domain or hunting ground and only it and its made prowl it (along with other species of predators). That's a large area that city dwellers can't adequately picture, and such a range is tiny compared to the sweeping wilderness that covers our land."

[SpiritInterface]

I'd say that in some books we can get the impression that there are swarms of MDC creatures, and in other places we're flat-out told that mega-damage is rare, and SDC is still the norm.

Flat-out telling wins over impressions that we may get. Or, at least, it should.

Here's one example, where Tarn explains how there can be lots of MDC critters, AND they can still be rare:
RUE P. 19, from Erin Tarn:
"I have had city folk question how it can be with all the fabled towns, tribes, clans, D-Bees and monsters they hear about, that one doesn't stumble over one hiding behind every tree. It doesn't work that way. The wildlife hides from intruders like us, the innocent animals run to avoid becoming hunted, and the predators watch from a nervous distance at least until they are ready to strike. People hear there may be hundred, thousands, even tens of thousands of a particular species, but they forget that number is spread across vast expanses of land, or that perhaps as few as one or two or a dozen may live in any given area. A predator like a mountain lion, for example, will consider one particular area that might cover 100 or 200 square miles as its domain or hunting ground and only it and its made prowl it (along with other species of predators). That's a large area that city dwellers can't adequately picture, and such a range is tiny compared to the sweeping wilderness that covers our land."

The writings of Erin Tarn is not Palladium or Siembieda stating that MDC is rare. She might have been writing about the scarcity of MDC creatures in the wilderness in Illinois that she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used. MDC creatures similar to mountain lions might have a range 100-200 square miles, but lesser MDC predators similar to wolves or foxes would have much smaller ranges.

In the Coalition alone almost half of the Citizens deal with MDC items on a daily basis. Over a third of the British Isles are covered with MDC creatures, another third is mixed half and half MDC/SDC. (per the map in England WB03/pg 119) In Europe humans make up 22% of the intelligent population, with the rest made up MDC beings. (per Triax/NGR WB05/pg 125) Half the population in the Triax/NGR also deal with MDC items on a daily basis. Over a third of the Japanese island of Honshu is covered by Demon Hordes. (per the map in Japan WB08/pg16) Depending on which Kingdom in Japan you visit the amount of MDC tech a citizen interacts with varies allot. (per Japan WB08/pg11-24)

Rifts MB, RUE, New West, and other book also talk about areas in and outside of cities where a person would never see an MDC creature or use MDC items.



In an MDC settings like Robotech where humans are just the little jelly bit that enables the giant Mecha to operate and goes piff when the Mecha is destroyed SDC doesn't matter.

In an SDC setting like Heroes Unlimited since no-one does MDC it doesn't matter.

The problem comes up in settings like Rifts and Phase World where the SDC squishy bits and easily breakables of SDC and the extra hard or high energy bits of MDC intermingle is where the problem exist. Do you have the 1 point MD that gets through the MDC protection and hits the SDC character vaporize him like the books say it will no matter how many SDC it has or do you convert it at 100/1 and compare the result against the characters SDC and Hit Points?


Palladium and Siembieda left allot of how to handle the intermingling of MDC and SDC up to the GMs and Players to deal with. The group I game with came up with a conversion system different from the one in the books that we like and have been using for 20+ years. I suggest GMs and Players sitting down and working it out, then stick with it. If you find that you need to change something do it together before or after a game, never during it. If you have a new player join explain your system to them, if they don't like it they can decide to play or not. If they need time to learn your system have them observe or assist the GM for a session or two. This is just my thoughts and advice.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say that in some books we can get the impression that there are swarms of MDC creatures, and in other places we're flat-out told that mega-damage is rare, and SDC is still the norm.

Flat-out telling wins over impressions that we may get. Or, at least, it should.

Here's one example, where Tarn explains how there can be lots of MDC critters, AND they can still be rare:
RUE P. 19, from Erin Tarn:
"I have had city folk question how it can be with all the fabled towns, tribes, clans, D-Bees and monsters they hear about, that one doesn't stumble over one hiding behind every tree. It doesn't work that way. The wildlife hides from intruders like us, the innocent animals run to avoid becoming hunted, and the predators watch from a nervous distance at least until they are ready to strike. People hear there may be hundred, thousands, even tens of thousands of a particular species, but they forget that number is spread across vast expanses of land, or that perhaps as few as one or two or a dozen may live in any given area. A predator like a mountain lion, for example, will consider one particular area that might cover 100 or 200 square miles as its domain or hunting ground and only it and its made prowl it (along with other species of predators). That's a large area that city dwellers can't adequately picture, and such a range is tiny compared to the sweeping wilderness that covers our land."

The writings of Erin Tarn is not Palladium or Siembieda stating that MDC is rare.

Correct. It is Palladium/Siembieda using a fictional character to explains how there can be lots of MDC critters, AND those can still be rare.
Which is why I introduced the passage that way.

She might have been writing about the scarcity of MDC creatures in the wilderness in Illinois that she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used. MDC creatures similar to mountain lions might have a range 100-200 square miles, but lesser MDC predators similar to wolves or foxes would have much smaller ranges.

Uh... no.
That would be an absurd amount of subtext for this kind of writing.
It is what it seems to be--Palladium explaining how it's possible for there to be many monsters, but for these monsters to not be encountered all the time by everybody.

In the Coalition alone almost half of the Citizens deal with MDC items on a daily basis.

And in El Dorado, the streets are paved with gold.
Does that mean that gold isn't rare as a general rule?

Over a third of the British Isles are covered with MDC creatures,

Do you mean "covered" as in "literally 1/3 of the total surface area is covered with monsters," or do you mean "covered" as in "kind of what Tarn was describing above, where there are MDC monsters that people may or may not encounter"...?

another third is mixed half and half MDC/SDC. (per the map in England WB03/pg 119) In Europe humans make up 22% of the intelligent population, with the rest made up MDC beings. (per Triax/NGR WB05/pg 125) Half the population in the Triax/NGR also deal with MDC items on a daily basis. Over a third of the Japanese island of Honshu is covered by Demon Hordes. (per the map in Japan WB08/pg16) Depending on which Kingdom in Japan you visit the amount of MDC tech a citizen interacts with varies allot. (per Japan WB08/pg11-24)

And....?

Rifts MB, RUE, New West, and other book also talk about areas in and outside of cities where a person would never see an MDC creature or use MDC items.

Correct.

In an MDC settings like Robotech where humans are just the little jelly bit that enables the giant Mecha to operate and goes piff when the Mecha is destroyed SDC doesn't matter.

In an SDC setting like Heroes Unlimited since no-one does MDC it doesn't matter.

The problem comes up in settings like Rifts and Phase World where the SDC squishy bits and easily breakables of SDC and the extra hard or high energy bits of MDC intermingle is where the problem exist.

What problem are you referring to?

Do you have the 1 point MD that gets through the MDC protection and hits the SDC character vaporize him like the books say it will no matter how many SDC it has or do you convert it at 100/1 and compare the result against the characters SDC and Hit Points?

Where do you believe that the books state that 1 point of mega-damage will vaporize an SDC character "no matter how many SDC it has"...?

Palladium and Siembieda left allot of how to handle the intermingling of MDC and SDC up to the GMs and Players to deal with. The group I game with came up with a conversion system different from the one in the books that we like and have been using for 20+ years. I suggest GMs and Players sitting down and working it out, then stick with it. If you find that you need to change something do it together before or after a game, never during it. If you have a new player join explain your system to them, if they don't like it they can decide to play or not. If they need time to learn your system have them observe or assist the GM for a session or two. This is just my thoughts and advice.

No idea why this paragraph is in this post.
But whatever.

[SpiritInterface]

I'd say that in some books we can get the impression that there are swarms of MDC creatures, and in other places we're flat-out told that mega-damage is rare, and SDC is still the norm.

Flat-out telling wins over impressions that we may get. Or, at least, it should.

Here's one example, where Tarn explains how there can be lots of MDC critters, AND they can still be rare:
RUE P. 19, from Erin Tarn:
"I have had city folk question how it can be with all the fabled towns, tribes, clans, D-Bees and monsters they hear about, that one doesn't stumble over one hiding behind every tree. It doesn't work that way. The wildlife hides from intruders like us, the innocent animals run to avoid becoming hunted, and the predators watch from a nervous distance at least until they are ready to strike. People hear there may be hundred, thousands, even tens of thousands of a particular species, but they forget that number is spread across vast expanses of land, or that perhaps as few as one or two or a dozen may live in any given area. A predator like a mountain lion, for example, will consider one particular area that might cover 100 or 200 square miles as its domain or hunting ground and only it and its made prowl it (along with other species of predators). That's a large area that city dwellers can't adequately picture, and such a range is tiny compared to the sweeping wilderness that covers our land."

The writings of Erin Tarn is not Palladium or Siembieda stating that MDC is rare.

Correct. It is Palladium/Siembieda using a fictional character to explains how there can be lots of MDC critters, AND those can still be rare.
Which is why I introduced the passage that way.

She might have been writing about the scarcity of MDC creatures in the wilderness in Illinois that she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used. MDC creatures similar to mountain lions might have a range 100-200 square miles, but lesser MDC predators similar to wolves or foxes would have much smaller ranges.

Uh... no.
That would be an absurd amount of subtext for this kind of writing.
It is what it seems to be--Palladium explaining how it's possible for there to be many monsters, but for these monsters to not be encountered all the time by everybody.

No more amount of subtext than you are trying to insert. Unless you are saying that ALL MDC Critters or beings act like apex predators?

Over a third of the British Isles are covered with MDC creatures,

Do you mean "covered" as in "literally 1/3 of the total surface area is covered with monsters," or do you mean "covered" as in "kind of what Tarn was describing above, where there are MDC monsters that people may or may not encounter"...?

As in so heavily infested that Humans can't survive there except as slave or pets. That a human would last on the Isle of Skye as long as a Fomorii would last in Chi-Town. Do you think that humans can just wander around Splurgoth/Kitanni controlled areas as the please without there being a high chance of being enslaved? You make the assumption that Intelligent MDC races or MDC Tech races don't create kingdoms or empires. That they don't send out patrols to sweep up and enslave lesser races like humans. You make the assumption that MDC Tech is only confined to humans on Rifts Earth

In Europe humans make up 22% of the intelligent population, with the rest made up MDC beings. (per Triax/NGR WB05/pg 125) Half the population in the Triax/NGR also deal with MDC items on a daily basis. Over a third of the Japanese island of Honshu is covered by Demon Hordes. (per the map in Japan WB08/pg16) Depending on which Kingdom in Japan you visit the amount of MDC tech a citizen interacts with varies allot. (per Japan WB08/pg11-24)

And....?

That there is large areas of mainland Europe controlled by MDC intelligent beings that may not like humans and drive them out or kill them. that there is a big chunk of Honshu where Demons have their kingdoms and only have humans as slaves or food, if they let them live at all.

Rifts MB, RUE, New West, and other book also talk about some areas in and outside of cities where a person would never see an MDC creature or use MDC items.

Correct.

In an MDC settings like Robotech where humans are just the little jelly bit that enables the giant Mecha to operate and goes piff when the Mecha is destroyed SDC doesn't matter.

In an SDC setting like Heroes Unlimited since no-one does MDC it doesn't matter.

The problem comes up in settings like Rifts and Phase World where the SDC squishy bits and easily breakables of SDC and the extra hard or high energy bits of MDC intermingle is where the problem exist.

What problem are you referring to?

Nice bit of selective editing there.

The difficulty comes up in settings like Rifts and Phase World. Where the SDC squishy bits and easily breakables of SDC and the extra hard or high energy bits of MDC intermingle is where the problem exist. Do you have the MD Damage that gets through the MDC protection and hits the SDC character vaporize him like some of the books suggest it will no matter how many SDC it has or do you convert it at 100SDC for every 1MD and compare the result against the characters SDC and Hit Points?

You have to decide how you are going to deal with an SDC Character taking MD Damage.

Siembieda never directly covers what happens to an SDC Player Character when they get shot by an MDC weapon. the closest he comes is stating that when you convert SD damage to MD you round down (i.e. 299 SDC = 2 MDC) and when converting MDC damage to SDC you round up (i.e. 2 MD = 299 SDC)

Where do you believe that the books state that 1 point of mega-damage will vaporize an SDC character "no matter how many SDC it has"...?

"As always, mega-damage weapons will obliterate an S.D.C. based item, which puts normal humans in immediate jeopardy." Rifts Conversion Book 1 page 26.

There is also another passage from a different book that says 1MD from an MD energy weapon destroys SDC organic living being completely. I am trying to find it again.

The group I game with came up with a conversion system different from the one in the books that we like and have been using for 20+ years. I suggest GMs and Players sitting down and working it out, then stick with it. If you find that you need to change something do it together before or after a game, never during it. If you have a new player join explain your system to them, if they don't like it they can decide to play or not. If they need time to learn your system have them observe or assist the GM for a session or two. This is just my thoughts and advice.

No idea why this paragraph is in this post.
But whatever.

This was directed to the OP as advice.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. For those trying to figure out the rarity of M.D.C., I know Palladium includes Random Encounter tables in some of their books (and maybe their G.M. screens). Have you considered looking at those and trying to determine the frequency of encountering a M.D. threat?

I figure Random Encounters are more likely in wilderness areas (as opposed to settled areas) and can provide some actual numbers. Just a thought. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Killer Cyborg]

She might have been writing about the scarcity of MDC creatures in the wilderness in Illinois that she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used. MDC creatures similar to mountain lions might have a range 100-200 square miles, but lesser MDC predators similar to wolves or foxes would have much smaller ranges.

Uh... no.
That would be an absurd amount of subtext for this kind of writing.
It is what it seems to be--Palladium explaining how it's possible for there to be many monsters, but for these monsters to not be encountered all the time by everybody.

No more amount of subtext than you are trying to insert. Unless you are saying that ALL MDC Critters or beings act like apex predators?

No, I'm cool with different monsters having different ranges. That makes sense.
The bigger the territory, the less chance of running into the monster while within the territory.
The smaller the territory, the less chance of running into the territory.
I was referring to the bolded portion.

As in so heavily infested that Humans can't survive there except as slave or pets. That a human would last on the Isle of Skye as long as a Fomorii would last in Chi-Town.

That's more clear.
I can't argue one way or the other about this one, because I'm not all that familiar with Rifts: England.
I can say that monsters being heavily populated in some places doesn't mean that they're likely to be encountered in other places.

You make the assumption that Intelligent MDC races or MDC Tech races don't create kingdoms or empires.

No I don't, and I don't know where you came up with the idea that I do.

In Europe humans make up 22% of the intelligent population, with the rest made up MDC beings. (per Triax/NGR WB05/pg 125) Half the population in the Triax/NGR also deal with MDC items on a daily basis. Over a third of the Japanese island of Honshu is covered by Demon Hordes. (per the map in Japan WB08/pg16) Depending on which Kingdom in Japan you visit the amount of MDC tech a citizen interacts with varies allot. (per Japan WB08/pg11-24)

And....?

That there is large areas of mainland Europe controlled by MDC intelligent beings that may not like humans and drive them out or kill them. that there is a big chunk of Honshu where Demons have their kingdoms and only have humans as slaves or food, if they let them live at all.

And......?

Nice bit of selective editing there.

I find it more clear and concise for me to clip just the parts that I'm responding to, then respond to them, than it is for me to clip the entire post or a lengthy chunk of it, then proceed to discuss which part of the larger clip I'm referring to with each of my points/questions/etc.

Siembieda never directly covers what happens to an SDC Player Character when they get shot by an MDC weapon. the closest he comes is stating that when you convert SD damage to MD you round down (i.e. 299 SDC = 2 MDC) and when converting MDC damage to SDC you round up (i.e. 2 MD = 299 SDC)

What else would you need to know?

Where do you believe that the books state that 1 point of mega-damage will vaporize an SDC character "no matter how many SDC it has"...?

"As always, mega-damage weapons will obliterate an S.D.C. based item, which puts normal humans in immediate jeopardy." Rifts Conversion Book 1 page 26.

That doesn't seem to be on that page of my copy of CB1.
Which printing do you have?
In my copy (5th printing), p.26 states (among other things):
The mega-damage weapons punch right through any armor rating and a single MD point inflicts an equivalent of 100 SDC/Hit Points of damage!
and
Also, beings with super-human amounts of SDC like 220 points means that they can endure the equivalent of two MD points of damage. That's not much, but it could be important at some point.

CB1r (1st printing), p. 25 states: (bolding added by me)
Without an MDC means of protection, a Mega-Damage energy blast atomizes half the character and even an MD punch that only does 1 MD point of damage is likely to instantly kill an ordinary person--probably punching right through him or literally knocking the victim's head off!
There are a few exceptions to this rule and formula, as follows.
and
One of the only exceptions are living beings whose combined Hit Points and SDC equal 100 or more.
In this case, 100 Hit Points and/or SDC equal roughly ONE MD point of damage, because one MD equals 100 Hit Points and/or SDC. So a character with 118 points of HP/SDC can actually withstand one point of Mega-Damage. If the character has 150 to 200 combined points, he can withstand up to two pooints of MD (I like to round up to give the character a fighting chance).
and on pages 25-26:
In the case of some aliens, mutants, monsters, and super beings, the character may have way more than a hundred or so Hit Points and SDC when the numbers are combined. They may have several hundred, maybe even a few thousand Hit points and/or SDC. The same consideration and formula, above, applies to these beings (unless otherwise stated). This, a being with 900 SDC is equal to 9 MDC and can take up to nine points of Mega-Damage before being killed. A character with 2,500 SDC can withstand up to 25 MD, and a character with 25,000 SDC can withstand 250 MD. Get it?

This was directed to the OP as advice.

[Killer Cyborg]

Greetings and Salutations. For those trying to figure out the rarity of M.D.C., I know Palladium includes Random Encounter tables in some of their books (and maybe their G.M. screens). Have you considered looking at those and trying to determine the frequency of encountering a M.D. threat?

I figure Random Encounters are more likely in wilderness areas (as opposed to settled areas) and can provide some actual numbers. Just a thought. Farewell and safe journeys.

I did some work on this idea roughly 6 years ago, so things might have changed if new tables came out (and/or if there were any I missed at the time):
viewtopic.php?p=2622768#p2622768

I was thinking about this earlier this morning, and I don't know of any place that includes information about the likelihood of encountering dangerous creatures.

BUT there is a "Random Wilderness Encounter Table" in SB2.
The apparent purpose of the table is for when a GM wants the party to encounter something in the wilderness, but doesn't have anything planned, or simply wants to make things more random.
The table is written for the East Coast, during the time of the Mechanoid Invasion.
Just to spitball something, you could look at that table and take out all of the encounters that would not be occurring if the Mechanoids had not invaded, under the logic that in other regions where there are no mechanoids, nothing in particular would be happening at those percentages.
That leaves a 60% chance of nothing in particular happening, and a 40% chance of something happening.

Of course, I don't know of any good way to gauge how often one would roll on this table, no idea whether it would be appropriate every minute of travel, or every mile, or every day, or every 100 miles, or what.

But looking over that table and thinking about it, I remembered the old Adventure Book that came in the GM's screen, and it has a random encounter table for Xiticix Country.
As with the mechanoid tables, we can remove any encounters with Xiticix, in order to get a rough idea of what the landscape would be like outside of Xiticix territory.
I am also taking out incidents where nothing particular happens, even if it can be rolled on the table (you see a deer, or a bear that runs away, etc.)

This time, there is a 49% chance of nothing in particular happening.

THIS random encounter table, though, has directions for use: "Roll as often as once for every 1d4 hour interval spent in Xiticix territory"
With the additional note that GMs can instead pick out the most interesting ones and play them out.

Now, since the wording there is "as often as," that means that the maximum chance of encountering something dangerous would be 51% per 1d4 hours in the wilderness.
The minimum, I suppose, would be that you don't roll on the table at all, and just decide that nothing at all happens (as far as big threats go).

This table was written up for encounters in a region which the Xiticix consider to be their territory, so no settlements are allowed to exist there, but they ignore individuals and small groups as long as they "keep their noses clean, don't make their presence obvious by building campfires, or do anything that could be construed to endanger or damage the land (like cutting down trees), and don't interfere with [xiticix] activity."
Which means that this is going to be wilderness that is completely unsettled: no roads, no towns, no open fields from farming, etc.
It's essentially virgin wilderness.
In more civilized areas, the odds of encountering a creature would be lower, as the monster population would be cut down by travelers, adventurers, militias, angry mobs, armies, etc.

It seems that there should be some kind of division or spectrum, because the likelihood of encountering hostiles would vary by region.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'd say that in some books we can get the impression that there are swarms of MDC creatures, and in other places we're flat-out told that mega-damage is rare, and SDC is still the norm.

Flat-out telling wins over impressions that we may get. Or, at least, it should.

Here's one example, where Tarn explains how there can be lots of MDC critters, AND they can still be rare:
RUE P. 19, from Erin Tarn:
"I have had city folk question how it can be with all the fabled towns, tribes, clans, D-Bees and monsters they hear about, that one doesn't stumble over one hiding behind every tree. It doesn't work that way. The wildlife hides from intruders like us, the innocent animals run to avoid becoming hunted, and the predators watch from a nervous distance at least until they are ready to strike. People hear there may be hundred, thousands, even tens of thousands of a particular species, but they forget that number is spread across vast expanses of land, or that perhaps as few as one or two or a dozen may live in any given area. A predator like a mountain lion, for example, will consider one particular area that might cover 100 or 200 square miles as its domain or hunting ground and only it and its made prowl it (along with other species of predators). That's a large area that city dwellers can't adequately picture, and such a range is tiny compared to the sweeping wilderness that covers our land."

The writings of Erin Tarn is not Palladium or Siembieda stating that MDC is rare. She might have been writing about the scarcity of MDC creatures in the wilderness in Illinois that she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used. MDC creatures similar to mountain lions might have a range 100-200 square miles, but lesser MDC predators similar to wolves or foxes would have much smaller ranges.

In the Coalition alone almost half of the Citizens deal with MDC items on a daily basis. Over a third of the British Isles are covered with MDC creatures, another third is mixed half and half MDC/SDC. (per the map in England WB03/pg 119) In Europe humans make up 22% of the intelligent population, with the rest made up MDC beings. (per Triax/NGR WB05/pg 125) Half the population in the Triax/NGR also deal with MDC items on a daily basis. Over a third of the Japanese island of Honshu is covered by Demon Hordes. (per the map in Japan WB08/pg16) Depending on which Kingdom in Japan you visit the amount of MDC tech a citizen interacts with varies allot. (per Japan WB08/pg11-24)

Rifts MB, RUE, New West, and other book also talk about areas in and outside of cities where a person would never see an MDC creature or use MDC items.



In an MDC settings like Robotech where humans are just the little jelly bit that enables the giant Mecha to operate and goes piff when the Mecha is destroyed SDC doesn't matter.

In an SDC setting like Heroes Unlimited since no-one does MDC it doesn't matter.

The problem comes up in settings like Rifts and Phase World where the SDC squishy bits and easily breakables of SDC and the extra hard or high energy bits of MDC intermingle is where the problem exist. Do you have the 1 point MD that gets through the MDC protection and hits the SDC character vaporize him like the books say it will no matter how many SDC it has or do you convert it at 100/1 and compare the result against the characters SDC and Hit Points?


Palladium and Siembieda left allot of how to handle the intermingling of MDC and SDC up to the GMs and Players to deal with. The group I game with came up with a conversion system different from the one in the books that we like and have been using for 20+ years. I suggest GMs and Players sitting down and working it out, then stick with it. If you find that you need to change something do it together before or after a game, never during it. If you have a new player join explain your system to them, if they don't like it they can decide to play or not. If they need time to learn your system have them observe or assist the GM for a session or two. This is just my thoughts and advice.

RT pilots dont go poof when the mecha is destroyed, that was the whole purpose of the reinforced pilots compartment. They arent playing Recon. All the areas you point out the creatures live in arent packed with them it just shows the range they can be found in. Just like a map showing the range lions roam doesnt mean you will definitely find one or that every person going through the area is being hunted.

[Zer0 Kay]

Greetings and Salutations. For those trying to figure out the rarity of M.D.C., I know Palladium includes Random Encounter tables in some of their books (and maybe their G.M. screens). Have you considered looking at those and trying to determine the frequency of encountering a M.D. threat?

I figure Random Encounters are more likely in wilderness areas (as opposed to settled areas) and can provide some actual numbers. Just a thought. Farewell and safe journeys.

I did some work on this idea roughly 6 years ago, so things might have changed if new tables came out (and/or if there were any I missed at the time):
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/v ... 8#p2622768

I was thinking about this earlier this morning, and I don't know of any place that includes information about the likelihood of encountering dangerous creatures.

BUT there is a "Random Wilderness Encounter Table" in SB2.
The apparent purpose of the table is for when a GM wants the party to encounter something in the wilderness, but doesn't have anything planned, or simply wants to make things more random.
The table is written for the East Coast, during the time of the Mechanoid Invasion.
Just to spitball something, you could look at that table and take out all of the encounters that would not be occurring if the Mechanoids had not invaded, under the logic that in other regions where there are no mechanoids, nothing in particular would be happening at those percentages.
That leaves a 60% chance of nothing in particular happening, and a 40% chance of something happening.

Of course, I don't know of any good way to gauge how often one would roll on this table, no idea whether it would be appropriate every minute of travel, or every mile, or every day, or every 100 miles, or what.

But looking over that table and thinking about it, I remembered the old Adventure Book that came in the GM's screen, and it has a random encounter table for Xiticix Country.
As with the mechanoid tables, we can remove any encounters with Xiticix, in order to get a rough idea of what the landscape would be like outside of Xiticix territory.
I am also taking out incidents where nothing particular happens, even if it can be rolled on the table (you see a deer, or a bear that runs away, etc.)

This time, there is a 49% chance of nothing in particular happening.

THIS random encounter table, though, has directions for use: "Roll as often as once for every 1d4 hour interval spent in Xiticix territory"
With the additional note that GMs can instead pick out the most interesting ones and play them out.

Now, since the wording there is "as often as," that means that the maximum chance of encountering something dangerous would be 51% per 1d4 hours in the wilderness.
The minimum, I suppose, would be that you don't roll on the table at all, and just decide that nothing at all happens (as far as big threats go).

This table was written up for encounters in a region which the Xiticix consider to be their territory, so no settlements are allowed to exist there, but they ignore individuals and small groups as long as they "keep their noses clean, don't make their presence obvious by building campfires, or do anything that could be construed to endanger or damage the land (like cutting down trees), and don't interfere with [xiticix] activity."
Which means that this is going to be wilderness that is completely unsettled: no roads, no towns, no open fields from farming, etc.
It's essentially virgin wilderness.
In more civilized areas, the odds of encountering a creature would be lower, as the monster population would be cut down by travelers, adventurers, militias, angry mobs, armies, etc.

It seems that there should be some kind of division or spectrum, because the likelihood of encountering hostiles would vary by region.

Dude that is beautiful. I am so stealing that.

[SpiritInterface]

My source was Conversion Book 1 (First Printing)

SpiritInterface wrote "That she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used."

Killer Cyborg wrote "I was referring to the bolded portion."

Have you ever read the stats on Sir Thorne and his crew, you know Erin Tarn's Cyber-Knight Body Guards.

[Killer Cyborg]

My source was Conversion Book 1 (First Printing)

SpiritInterface wrote "That she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used."

Killer Cyborg wrote "I was referring to the bolded portion."

Have you ever read the stats on Sir Thorne and his crew, you know Erin Tarn's Cyber-Knight Body Guards.

Doesn't matter what their stats are.
The problem is trying to assume that Palladium was deliberately writing Tarn's narrative to be skewed in the direction of "she didn't see as many monsters because her crew was geared up, and Palladium assumed that the readers would understand the unreliability of this narration, because Palladium is known for that kind of indirect layering and depth of approach, and their customer base is known for correctly interpreting this kind of read-between-the-lines advanced writing style."

[SpiritInterface]

In an MDC settings like Robotech where humans are just the little jelly bit that enables the giant Mecha to operate and goes piff when the Mecha is destroyed SDC doesn't matter.

RT pilots dont go poof when the mecha is destroyed, that was the whole purpose of the reinforced pilots compartment. They arent playing Recon. All the areas you point out the creatures live in arent packed with them it just shows the range they can be found in. Just like a map showing the range lions roam doesnt mean you will definitely find one or that every person going through the area is being hunted.

Ok they don't go poof, they float around like so much space debris.

That is like saying you look at a map of American and saying that you won't definitely run into Americans in the area. That argument is based on the assumption that the beings in the area are alpha predators and have large ranges. If the MDC beings are a social being in moderate to large numbers the chance of running into them increases exponentially. Then factor in sentience and or intelligence and the chance of encountering them increases again. The areas I mentioned were for sentient intelligent beings.

[Sohisohi]

2) Rifts magic and psionics however, only do MDC because of the Dragon Line environment...

3) how are humans on rifts earth still a thing? Every book has a new mass of MDC creatures that would easily destroy a MDC fortified village. Sometimes they are big like fury beetles, sometimes they are small like lasae. A crafty psychopath with a laser scalpal can wipe out a whole town. These outlying villages aren't equipped for MDC battles. As far as I can tell they MIGHT have a rifle or two. Maybe they got lucky with a MDC Merc sherriff. but if anything really wanted to avoid a one on one with that guy, he would be the only one left standing in a town full of destroyed buildings and corpses. A single lasae, 1 foot tall, SNPS 2 (5d6x100 punch, 6d6x100 claw or 2d6 bite(?!?!?)), invisibility, with HF 12, and MDC: 66, or 6600 SDC, Prowl at 71, Regenerates at 10 per second, could take out soooo many people humans.

There is indeed at least one SDC spells in the main book, Energy Bolt. But you are correct, most magic is indeed MDC unless in an SDC environment.

Because SDC weapons can effectively do MDC damage if they pile on the SDC. So a rocket launcher, Heavy machine-gun/gun-turret, or and old SDC tank/cannon. I believe there is also a weapon that is a blatant rip-off of the P90, which will deal 1 MDC if you concentrate fire for a full minute of combat. Point is, although their is a limit on the number of MDC weapons a village or farmstead might have... I don't believe such a limit exists for SDC weapons, of which can indeed mean a very bad time for you. That and there is no google earth, how is any particular creature going to find some random village of like -500 people out in the middle of nowhere? That and creature that specifically exist to hunt humans (like vampires) tend to be weak to SDC items like wood, stone, and silver. On a side note, I was under the impress that it is rare for any particular city to just be out on it's own. With the exception of a place like faze town, most small communities will eventually ally with a larger kingdom. Hell, there a tribals/natives allied with the CS because the CS stretches across their territory.

[Zer0 Kay]

In an MDC settings like Robotech where humans are just the little jelly bit that enables the giant Mecha to operate and goes piff when the Mecha is destroyed SDC doesn't matter.

RT pilots dont go poof when the mecha is destroyed, that was the whole purpose of the reinforced pilots compartment. They arent playing Recon. All the areas you point out the creatures live in arent packed with them it just shows the range they can be found in. Just like a map showing the range lions roam doesnt mean you will definitely find one or that every person going through the area is being hunted.

Ok they don't go poof, they float around like so much space debris.And then they're saved by Rick Hunter. But your point is erred too since ALL civilians who aren't resistance fighters are SDC as are Invid not in suits as are Micronian Zentradi. To say it doesn't matter simply means your GM or you do not make it matter.

That is like saying you look at a map of American and saying that you won't definitely run into Americans in the area. NO that is like saying that I can be in the Rockies on foot, which is on that map and not see anyone for weeks. That is like saying that I could be in Death Valley and die before I see a single person. That is like saying that I could be in the Badlands and never run across anyone for days or in the Middle of Alaska and not see anyone for months. Are you one of those people that think that the world is overcrowded? If so you need to leave your city and go to a rural town to learn it isn't the world that is overcrowded it is the cities and that is by choice so...That argument is based on the assumption that the beings in the area are alpha predators and have large ranges. If the MDC beings are a social being in moderate to large numbers so... you do realize that lions are a social animal living in prides? So are wolves, tasmanian devils, wolverine, hyenas, crocodiles, cheetah, bears and humans and they're all alpha predators.
the chance of running into them increases exponentially. No it doesn't if all of a species is packed into a single large group or even several groups rather than living solitary lives it reduces the chances of running into one of them.
All it does is increase the number you will run into when in the unlikely chance your run into their herd.Then factor in sentience and or intelligence and the chance of encountering them increases again.So because humans are sentient and arguably the smartest animal on the planet then we should be guaranteed to run into one no matter where we go right I mean since mankind extremely social AND sentient AND intelligent so... how do people get lost in wilderness in the contiguous united states?Won't mention Alaska since more people get lost there. The areas I mentioned were for sentient intelligent beings.

What ever... it isn't RT pilots that go poof, it is your arguement.

[Zer0 Kay]

My source was Conversion Book 1 (First Printing)

SpiritInterface wrote "That she witnessed while being protected by MDC armor worn by her and her bodyguards and the MDC weapons that they carried. Surrounded by the MDC equipment that was carried by the MDC vehicles they used."

Killer Cyborg wrote "I was referring to the bolded portion."

Have you ever read the stats on Sir Thorne and his crew, you know Erin Tarn's Cyber-Knight Body Guards.

Doesn't matter what their stats are.
The problem is trying to assume that Palladium was deliberately writing Tarn's narrative to be skewed in the direction of "she didn't see as many monsters because her crew was geared up, and Palladium assumed that the readers would understand the unreliability of this narration, because Palladium is known for that kind of indirect layering and depth of approach, and their customer base is known for correctly interpreting this kind of read-between-the-lines advanced writing style."

Which line