How, where, when and why to incorporate skill checks?

[TatteredBlackCape]

Hello!

Let’s have a discussion about skills, yes?

Should characters have any idea what they’re finding in the wild without a skill such as Find Contraband or Weapons Engineer or something else that i’m forgetting.

Maybe it’s a stupid question, but the implications of these little details can be the difference between playing Everquest/FFXI or playing WoW, if you catch my drift.

Outside staple Northern Gun weapons, which would be known to people like AR-15s and AK-47s are known to the laymen’s or our society, why would anyone recognize items found on the field?
I’m running a game of RIFTS for an imaginative group of newbies and I’m keeping it very old school and grounded. The first drop i’m planning to leave my Wilderneas Scout is the solar powered snipe rifle in the NG1 book.

But just because he can fire it, why should I tell him what it is?

But does this add to the game or take from it? Not this specific example, per say, but the general GM or Gaming philosophy behind thinking identifying this stuff would be a skill check.

On the flip side, if a Hovercycle is automatic transmission, why couldn’t anyone jump on it and go? Actually, that’s probably a bad example because I can picture that going terribly.

But an Automobile or regular motorcycle, on the other hand— Where is the skill check needed there? During difficult maneuvers? Then does that mean without the skill even attempting a maneuver is impossible? Maybe home brew it to 50% the lvl1 starting point of the pilot skill?

The real question, honestly, is how much do you DEPRIVE your players because of lack of skill?

[Mack]

Hello!

Welcome to the forum!

Let’s have a discussion about skills, yes?

Should characters have any idea what they’re finding in the wild without a skill such as Find Contraband or Weapons Engineer or something else that i’m forgetting.

Maybe it’s a stupid question, but the implications of these little details can be the difference between playing Everquest/FFXI or playing WoW, if you catch my drift.

Outside staple Northern Gun weapons, which would be known to people like AR-15s and AK-47s are known to the laymen’s or our society, why would anyone recognize items found on the field?

I’m running a game of RIFTS for an imaginative group of newbies and I’m keeping it very old school and grounded. The first drop i’m planning to leave my Wilderneas Scout is the solar powered snipe rifle in the NG1 book.

But just because he can fire it, why should I tell him what it is?

If the character has WP Energy Rifle (I assume he does) and the weapon isn't exotic, then yes, I'd assume he knows what it is. Maybe not the details, but in general.

"Hey, I saw one of these about 3 months ago..."

But does this add to the game or take from it? Not this specific example, per say, but the general GM or Gaming philosophy behind thinking identifying this stuff would be a skill check.

On the flip side, if a Hovercycle is automatic transmission, why couldn’t anyone jump on it and go? Actually, that’s probably a bad example because I can picture that going terribly.

But an Automobile or regular motorcycle, on the other hand— Where is the skill check needed there? During difficult maneuvers? Then does that mean without the skill even attempting a maneuver is impossible? Maybe home brew it to 50% the lvl1 starting point of the pilot skill?

The rule of thumb is to use a driving/piloting skill roll when the character attempting something difficult, or has to quickly react to the unexpected.

The real question, honestly, is how much do you DEPRIVE your players because of lack of skill?

Completely a GM's call, but I'd give players a little bit of leeway.

For example, I had a character who was stranded with a just a motorcycle but didn't have the appropriate skill. Instead of just saying "you're out of luck" the GM let the character attempt to ride it at half the normal base percentage, and had to roll every quarter mile. The character kept the speed down and was really careful. It was slow going (and a bit painful) but still better than walking.

[guardiandashi]

i'm going to suggest a couple things but its just my take on it.

if a character has a "related skill" I would allow them to use it but with penalties.
if the character finds an energy pistol, I would consider wp pistol, and wp energy rifle and wp heavy md weapons to be "related" skills, this is assuming they don't have wp energy pistol of course.

if they have the relevant skills then obviously they use the best skill they have.

on the other hand if they are trying to ride a motorcycle then pilot bicycle and pilot automobile would be IMO "related" skills.

note sometimes there aren't really related skills or the related skills vary depending on what you are trying to do.

if you were trying to fly a space shuttle for instance, for launch the related skill would be pilot rocket, and for landing it might be pilot jet/fighter, or pilot helicopter but at penalties sometimes major ones.

[Cr'Imson]

Should characters have any idea what they’re finding in the wild without a skill such as Find Contraband or Weapons Engineer or something else that i’m forgetting.?

Yes. People know Energy Rifle when they see it. Do they know how to use that specific type? Maybe not, if just introduced.

The real question, honestly, is how much do you DEPRIVE your players because of lack of skill?

Could they learn the limitations, assuming proficiency? Yes. Would they know what it was? Did they take it in, and maybe pay a fee, to have it identified/serviced?



Cr'Imson

[Killer Cyborg]

Hello!

Let’s have a discussion about skills, yes?

Should characters have any idea what they’re finding in the wild without a skill such as Find Contraband or Weapons Engineer or something else that i’m forgetting.

Maybe it’s a stupid question, but the implications of these little details can be the difference between playing Everquest/FFXI or playing WoW, if you catch my drift.

Back in the days of yore, a Palladium staffer of some kind (I forget whom, possibly Maryann) told us here on the forums (or perhaps over AOL?) that in cases where a character needs to try to attempt a skill check, but does not have the skill in question, the attempt can be made by rolling percentile dice against the appropriate attribute.
So in this case, if somebody obtains a random rifle, and doesn't have the right WP or other skill, they could probably roll against their IQ to see what they can remember or figure out.
If their IQ is 10, that's a 10% chance of knowing something.

This is something that is very useful to consider in most conversations about skill checks and such.

Outside staple Northern Gun weapons, which would be known to people like AR-15s and AK-47s are known to the laymen’s or our society, why would anyone recognize items found on the field?

Not necessarily, BUT most guns in the real world do have their make and model inscribed into them somewhere.
A lot of the answer here comes down to how much work you as a GM want to do, and how much you want your characters to do.
Most GMs don't want to have their players write down stuff like "unknown energy rifle," and make them figure out all the details through trial and error and such.

I’m running a game of RIFTS for an imaginative group of newbies and I’m keeping it very old school and grounded. The first drop i’m planning to leave my Wilderneas Scout is the solar powered snipe rifle in the NG1 book.

But just because he can fire it, why should I tell him what it is?

If he fires it once, he should be able to tell the energy type.
If there are solar panels on it, he can probably tell it's solar powered (unless he's never seen solar panels before).
The make and model would probably be inscribed on it.

But does this add to the game or take from it? Not this specific example, per say, but the general GM or Gaming philosophy behind thinking identifying this stuff would be a skill check.

Most adventures I've run and participated in don't gain much from hiding rather meaningless information like "the kind of specific rifle," and aren't nuanced enough to gain anything significant by hiding the name of the rifle or so forth.
And figuring it out from scratch is often considered tedious: you have to burn an e-clip to figure out how many rounds you have, and do a bunch of shots to determine range, and so forth.
Extra work, but usually for no real gain.

On the flip side, if a Hovercycle is automatic transmission, why couldn’t anyone jump on it and go? Actually, that’s probably a bad example because I can picture that going terribly.

For an unskilled character, I'd roll percentile dice versus IQ to figure out how to start the vehicle, and probably versus PP to steer it.
Skilled characters only need to make checks when something interesting or risky is happening, so a skilled character could drive for miles without having to make a check. But an unskilled character, at least for the first several miles until they became more familiar with the machine... I'd have them make a LOT of checks to avoid crashing.

But an Automobile or regular motorcycle, on the other hand— Where is the skill check needed there? During difficult maneuvers?

The Collected MOPs, p. 115
How do you roll against one of your skills to find out if it succeeded or not?
The simple answer is that you roll a percentile. A result under your skill level means your character succeeds at whatever is being attempted. Rolling a number above the skill level means that the attempt failed.
However, you don't roll all the time. You only roll when the character is facing some kind of challenge or [i]difficulty[/u]. For example, let's say that Night Beast is planning to drive a car he's never driven before, say the latest luxury care from Detroit.
There are two possible situations.
In the first, the car is parked in an empty parking lot on a Sunday evening, he's got all the time in the world, and he can take a few minutes getting used to the controls, and then test driving the car around the parking lot. Does he have to roll? No! He already knows pilot: automobile, so he just has to spend a minute or two to get the feel of that particular car. Many cars have a different feel to them. If you're used to driving a big car, jeep, truck, or van, there is a moment of disorientation when one drives a smaller care because the vehicle is much smaller and lower to the ground.
However, what if Night Beast is in hot pursuit of some bank robbers? He runs out of the bank and spots a friend of his. "Here, take my car," says the friend, tossing Beastie the keys. Same new luxury car, but now Night Beast is trying to operate a totally strange vehicle in a big hurry. In this case, he might need to roll to start the car, another roll to drive it successfully, and perhaps a few more rolls during the pursuit, particularly when trying to make a special move, like a sudden turn.
Likewise, Night Beast driving his usual vehicle, in normal traffic, at regular speeds, will never have to roll against his skill.

Then does that mean without the skill even attempting a maneuver is impossible? Maybe home brew it to 50% the lvl1 starting point of the pilot skill?

Only if the appropriate attribute number for whatever is being attempted is 50.
Usually IQ or PP.

The real question, honestly, is how much do you DEPRIVE your players because of lack of skill?

It all depends on the story/adventure that I'm running, and how much I've zoomed in on that part.
I've skimmed over a lot of stuff here or there... but I've also had situations where I've denied character the ability to count enemy troop numbers unless they have the Basic Math skill: they could only get the gist, like "more of them than us," "maybe twice as many of them," or "There's more than I can count."

[Blue_Lion]

Hello!

Let’s have a discussion about skills, yes?

Should characters have any idea what they’re finding in the wild without a skill such as Find Contraband or Weapons Engineer or something else that i’m forgetting.

Maybe it’s a stupid question, but the implications of these little details can be the difference between playing Everquest/FFXI or playing WoW, if you catch my drift.

Outside staple Northern Gun weapons, which would be known to people like AR-15s and AK-47s are known to the laymen’s or our society, why would anyone recognize items found on the field?
I’m running a game of RIFTS for an imaginative group of newbies and I’m keeping it very old school and grounded. The first drop i’m planning to leave my Wilderneas Scout is the solar powered snipe rifle in the NG1 book.

But just because he can fire it, why should I tell him what it is?

But does this add to the game or take from it? Not this specific example, per say, but the general GM or Gaming philosophy behind thinking identifying this stuff would be a skill check.

On the flip side, if a Hovercycle is automatic transmission, why couldn’t anyone jump on it and go? Actually, that’s probably a bad example because I can picture that going terribly.

But an Automobile or regular motorcycle, on the other hand— Where is the skill check needed there? During difficult maneuvers? Then does that mean without the skill even attempting a maneuver is impossible? Maybe home brew it to 50% the lvl1 starting point of the pilot skill?

The real question, honestly, is how much do you DEPRIVE your players because of lack of skill?

Find contraband is used to locate a source of contraband or hiding place of it. Weapons engineer is used to build/modify weapons. Neither of them is needed to know what you already found. You do not need to be able to build a gun to know a AR 15 when you see one. Any adventure in rifts should reasonably be expected to know a L-20 laser rifle or ak-47 on sight.(if you think it reasonable that an adventure would recognize something they do.)


Telling how well made the weapon is would require recognize weapon quality, As would spotting a cheep knock off. Ensuring a weapon is in working order requires a skill in that weapon.


Vehicle piloting by the rules a roll is required for trick driving or high risk moves. Most ground vehicles can be used without a piloting skill to get from point A and B. So while they can get from point A to B any high risk move(such as taking fire) would require a skill roll if they can not make a skill roll they crash.

[TatteredBlackCape]

I appreciate the responses. I really was asking for opinions rather than trying to put forward a position.

While I do disagree that becoming proficient with rifles on the family farm makes one proficient at identifying rifle models, especially in the RIFTs setting where long distance trade isn’t that common.

It’s really not totally about weapon identification, though. How about location detail and backstory?
For example, is it worth it to be a noticeably different GM in how you describe, say, an underground pre-apocalypse installation, when you have a Rogue Scholar or Scientist in the party?

Is it worth it to use story telling more ambiguously when the party doesn’t have the skill or background to know certain thing?

It’s not so much a matter of depriving (as I originally put it) the party of information, but presenting it much differently.

[eliakon]

I would say that with out some skill or an incharacter reason to know the specifics if you find an energy rifle anyone can say "oh, hey look its an energy rifle"

If it has a national marking and/or brand marks/model numbers you can tell what it is from that...
...but most people will look at that rifle and not be able to instantly say "oh hey look a JA-9" let alone "That thing has a sweet range on the laser"

Even many real world military personal can't instantly identify most firearms just by sight let alone tell you their stats.
Sure, the gun aficionados can... but they have a skill invested in that basically. I mean that is what secondary skills ARE, your hobbies and personal interests... like say 'gun collecting'.

In my opinion this ADDS to the game. It makes it so that the gun nut has something special and it helps with the OOTSesque gaming play where every character seems to have memorized every game manual and can instantly identify anything and know its full stats...


I am a big fan at my table of the practice of saying "you see X (give thumbnail description). Roll a skill that you feel is relevant to learn more". I usually allow a roll under IQ on 1d100 for almost anything, with a multiplier or bonus based on why you should know. Thus your dogboy who spent three years supporting the CS rangers is probably going to get a x3 or 4 on his IQ roll to identify some obscure weapon... but your bookish scholar from Lazlo is going to be lucky to not get a penalty!

[shadrak]

I appreciate the responses. I really was asking for opinions rather than trying to put forward a position.

While I do disagree that becoming proficient with rifles on the family farm makes one proficient at identifying rifle models, especially in the RIFTs setting where long distance trade isn’t that common.

It’s really not totally about weapon identification, though. How about location detail and backstory?
For example, is it worth it to be a noticeably different GM in how you describe, say, an underground pre-apocalypse installation, when you have a Rogue Scholar or Scientist in the party?

Is it worth it to use story telling more ambiguously when the party doesn’t have the skill or background to know certain thing?

It’s not so much a matter of depriving (as I originally put it) the party of information, but presenting it much differently.

Why does it matter that the character know the model of the weapon?

Generally, ammunition is universal (standardized and long E-Clips).

Manufacturer's markings might give you an idea of who made the weapon, but I don't see a lot of these weapons being waranteed nor do I see a lot of these weapons needing repairs in the gaming environment assuming the characters even had the skills...so knowing the manufacturer to get repairs or parts isn't a high priority.

With regard to capabilities, the characters could just come across a marketing brochure or test the weapon out.

I mean, you are talking about a rare weapon, right? Well, if it is particularly rare and the character hasn't encountered it before and the character does not have a broad knowledge about the various makes and models of weapons, they don't need to know what the weapon is...

The player probably does...

And the character can learn the weapon's capabilities by testing it...

So you have an opportunity for skill development and roleplaying.

1. Player finds new gun
2. Player unloads and clears gun
3. Player inspects gun and tries to ascertain functions and capabilities
4. Player tests gun to confirm assumed functions and capabilities ("Hey! Bob! Take this deadboy helmet we pulled off of that CS Trooper out about 500'...I wanna see if this baby can hit it!").

In the end, though, just do what works for you and your group.

[guardiandashi]

when a character finds stuff, or runs into things that they wouldn't have a clue about that's when Role playing can get really fun.

the best thing about rifts is that the system is really in a way designed for crossovers such as to other gaming systems.
I mean lets face it, lets say you were playing a character from rifts and the gm felt like running a star wars session, but no one wanted to make new chars for said star wars campaign. boom the chars get rifted to star wars and stuff happens.

or as another example someone wants to have an adventure/session, where equipment (or people) from battletech, star trek, or battlestar galactica, or even warhammer 40k show up in rifts, its all possible. you just have to decide what kind of stats the stuff has.

[TatteredBlackCape]

I would say that with out some skill or an incharacter reason to know the specifics if you find an energy rifle anyone can say "oh, hey look its an energy rifle"

If it has a national marking and/or brand marks/model numbers you can tell what it is from that...
...but most people will look at that rifle and not be able to instantly say "oh hey look a JA-9" let alone "That thing has a sweet range on the laser"

Even many real world military personal can't instantly identify most firearms just by sight let alone tell you their stats.
Sure, the gun aficionados can... but they have a skill invested in that basically. I mean that is what secondary skills ARE, your hobbies and personal interests... like say 'gun collecting'.

In my opinion this ADDS to the game. It makes it so that the gun nut has something special and it helps with the OOTSesque gaming play where every character seems to have memorized every game manual and can instantly identify anything and know its full stats...


I am a big fan at my table of the practice of saying "you see X (give thumbnail description). Roll a skill that you feel is relevant to learn more". I usually allow a roll under IQ on 1d100 for almost anything, with a multiplier or bonus based on why you should know. Thus your dogboy who spent three years supporting the CS rangers is probably going to get a x3 or 4 on his IQ roll to identify some obscure weapon... but your bookish scholar from Lazlo is going to be lucky to not get a penalty!

I agree with this. If a weapon is marked, it’s fine they know what it is, and when they hit, they’ll know it’s damage, but there’s no reason for them to know the range of the rifle or the radius of a missile.

Honestly, not knowing the destructive capability of a weapon you’re capable of firing can create some great situations, and that example, as I was thinking about my introduction campaign, is what prompted, in part, this thread.

Further more, if the party is learning a lot deeper information from the GM on their environments, by virtue of having a Rogue Scholar in the party, that really incentivizes those classes in a world of storm summoners and giant robots.

In fact, i’ll probably have entire areas of certain dungeon-crawls unattainable without an academic class, similar to a video game RPG, because that successfully makes these classes wanted.

[guardiandashi]

I would say that with out some skill or an incharacter reason to know the specifics if you find an energy rifle anyone can say "oh, hey look its an energy rifle"

If it has a national marking and/or brand marks/model numbers you can tell what it is from that...
...but most people will look at that rifle and not be able to instantly say "oh hey look a JA-9" let alone "That thing has a sweet range on the laser"

Even many real world military personal can't instantly identify most firearms just by sight let alone tell you their stats.
Sure, the gun aficionados can... but they have a skill invested in that basically. I mean that is what secondary skills ARE, your hobbies and personal interests... like say 'gun collecting'.

In my opinion this ADDS to the game. It makes it so that the gun nut has something special and it helps with the OOTSesque gaming play where every character seems to have memorized every game manual and can instantly identify anything and know its full stats...


I am a big fan at my table of the practice of saying "you see X (give thumbnail description). Roll a skill that you feel is relevant to learn more". I usually allow a roll under IQ on 1d100 for almost anything, with a multiplier or bonus based on why you should know. Thus your dogboy who spent three years supporting the CS rangers is probably going to get a x3 or 4 on his IQ roll to identify some obscure weapon... but your bookish scholar from Lazlo is going to be lucky to not get a penalty!

I agree with this. If a weapon is marked, it’s fine they know what it is, and when they hit, they’ll know it’s damage, but there’s no reason for them to know the range of the rifle or the radius of a missile.

Honestly, not knowing the destructive capability of a weapon you’re capable of firing can create some great situations, and that example, as I was thinking about my introduction campaign, is what prompted, in part, this thread.

Further more, if the party is learning a lot deeper information from the GM on their environments, by virtue of having a Rogue Scholar in the party, that really incentivizes those classes in a world of storm summoners and giant robots.

In fact, i’ll probably have entire areas of certain dungeon-crawls unattainable without an academic class, similar to a video game RPG, because that successfully makes these classes wanted.

heh the worst one for that never knowing the blast radius was a weapon our GM came up with for a "race" that he had.
basically the gun fires what appears to be a ping pong ball. (table tennis ball) when it hits something it detonates, with variable yield, I want to say you roll 1d4, 1d6, or 2d6 that roll determines the number of d6X10 MDC damage the blast does, and the damage done ( in D6X10 ) determines the blast radius, from ~1ft, to something like 30ft if I remember right