Steelwood and Vampires

[pad300]

Ok, I searched "steelwood vampires", and only found the arnzo worldbook thread talking about armor. So, my questions:

1) Does a "raw" steelwood weapon hurt a vampire?

2) Does a "forged" steelwood weapon hurt a vampire?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ok, I searched "steelwood vampires", and only found the arnzo worldbook thread talking about armor. So, my questions:

1) Does a "raw" steelwood weapon hurt a vampire?

2) Does a "forged" steelwood weapon hurt a vampire?

Vampire Kingdoms Revised says Ironwood weapons can hurt vampires, but are less effective, not dealing double damage and being capped to 2d6+2 as the maximum damage they can inflict. While Steeltree is Natural and Ironwood is a spell, the revised says that the structual changes made in the wood to make it MDC make it less effective on vampires, so I think you can reasonably apply the ruling to Steelwood as well as Ironwood.

[ITWastrel]

MDC wood has one huge disadvantage versus SDC wood. MDC wood does not splinter.

When a vampire is stabbed by a wooden weapon his clothing, meat, and bone also damage the weapon. Sometimes in a visible "chunks out of the edge/tip" way, and always in the small scale, tiny splinters scratching and digging into the supernaturally vulnerable flesh. An MDC wood weapon will not lose even a fiber to the cleaving of bone and skin, and thus the damage track won't be littered by the tiny, burning, itchy remainders you would find from a normal wood weapon.

[pad300]

MDC wood has one huge disadvantage versus SDC wood. MDC wood does not splinter.

When a vampire is stabbed by a wooden weapon his clothing, meat, and bone also damage the weapon. Sometimes in a visible "chunks out of the edge/tip" way, and always in the small scale, tiny splinters scratching and digging into the supernaturally vulnerable flesh. An MDC wood weapon will not lose even a fiber to the cleaving of bone and skin, and thus the damage track won't be littered by the tiny, burning, itchy remainders you would find from a normal wood weapon.

MDC Wood has a HUGE advantage - as an MDC structure, it can be used to apply MDC force (robot or supernatural PS) to an inherently SDC vampire... For example, closing to melee with a suit of powered armor which has an MDC wooden Tonfa for example, is a losing proposition for vampires...

[ITWastrel]

Vampires aren't harmed by the strength of the weapon wielder. In several places the new Vampire Kingdoms book repeats that the weapon used against vampires does not get any PS bonus damage, even if wielded by a character with supernatural PS. A wooden or silver weapon driven with the force of a train wouldn't do more than base damage.

I doubt the MDC weapon would do any better than the SDC equivalent, save for durability. An SDC weapon would likely never survive to take a second swing when held by a dragon, but an MDC one should.

[Nekira Sudacne]

MDC wood has one huge disadvantage versus SDC wood. MDC wood does not splinter.

When a vampire is stabbed by a wooden weapon his clothing, meat, and bone also damage the weapon. Sometimes in a visible "chunks out of the edge/tip" way, and always in the small scale, tiny splinters scratching and digging into the supernaturally vulnerable flesh. An MDC wood weapon will not lose even a fiber to the cleaving of bone and skin, and thus the damage track won't be littered by the tiny, burning, itchy remainders you would find from a normal wood weapon.

MDC Wood has a HUGE advantage - as an MDC structure, it can be used to apply MDC force (robot or supernatural PS) to an inherently SDC vampire... For example, closing to melee with a suit of powered armor which has an MDC wooden Tonfa for example, is a losing proposition for vampires...

Yea, as Wastrel says, Vampire Kingdoms Revised that in no case do you add PS damage to the damage of wooden weapons, SN PS or regular PS.

[Shark_Force]

Vampires aren't harmed by the strength of the weapon wielder. In several places the new Vampire Kingdoms book repeats that the weapon used against vampires does not get any PS bonus damage, even if wielded by a character with supernatural PS. A wooden or silver weapon driven with the force of a train wouldn't do more than base damage.

I doubt the MDC weapon would do any better than the SDC equivalent, save for durability. An SDC weapon would likely never survive to take a second swing when held by a dragon, but an MDC one should.

well, that's a load of bull.

the only way wooden bullets (or railgun slugs) plausibly do any damage at all is the high speed impact.

[Mack]

well, that's a load of bull.

Perhaps we can find a more amenable way to disagree with our fellow Rifts fans.

[Shark_Force]

well, that's a load of bull.

Perhaps we can find a more amenable way to disagree with our fellow Rifts fans.

i'm not disagreeing with the fan, i'm disagreeing with the author(s) who wrote that. it's not the fans' fault if the rules are nonsense.

[Mack]

well, that's a load of bull.

Perhaps we can find a more amenable way to disagree with our fellow Rifts fans.

i'm not disagreeing with the fan, i'm disagreeing with the author(s) who wrote that. it's not the fans' fault if the rules are nonsense.

Which, in no way, changes my suggestion.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Vampires aren't harmed by the strength of the weapon wielder. In several places the new Vampire Kingdoms book repeats that the weapon used against vampires does not get any PS bonus damage, even if wielded by a character with supernatural PS. A wooden or silver weapon driven with the force of a train wouldn't do more than base damage.

I doubt the MDC weapon would do any better than the SDC equivalent, save for durability. An SDC weapon would likely never survive to take a second swing when held by a dragon, but an MDC one should.

well, that's a load of bull.

the only way wooden bullets (or railgun slugs) plausibly do any damage at all is the high speed impact.

Technically the high speed impact rules and the PS Damage rules are unrelated. So throwing a fastball with wooden spikes, deadball style, 100 MPH, would add damage that way.

[Axelmania]

In several places the new Vampire Kingdoms book repeats that the weapon used against vampires does not get any PS bonus damage

That sounds relatively new, I don't think it works that way in Nightbane, PF, or the original VK.

What if I drop a wooden picnic table on a vampire? Does fall height still matter? I can't remember where to find damage calculation for dropped anvils and the like

[eliakon]

I would also like to point out that Steeltree 'stuff' may or may not even count as wood.
I mean it is pretty clearly a metal, as it is smelted, forged, etc
Just because it grows doesn't make it a wood.

I would, off hand, say that a Vampire would simply laugh at a Steeltree weapon entirely.

[dreicunan]

Vampires aren't harmed by the strength of the weapon wielder. In several places the new Vampire Kingdoms book repeats that the weapon used against vampires does not get any PS bonus damage, even if wielded by a character with supernatural PS. A wooden or silver weapon driven with the force of a train wouldn't do more than base damage.

I doubt the MDC weapon would do any better than the SDC equivalent, save for durability. An SDC weapon would likely never survive to take a second swing when held by a dragon, but an MDC one should.

well, that's a load of bull.

the only way wooden bullets (or railgun slugs) plausibly do any damage at all is the high speed impact.

Technically the high speed impact rules and the PS Damage rules are unrelated. So throwing a fastball with wooden spikes, deadball style, 100 MPH, would add damage that way.

That is a fascinating idea. I've never considered applying those rules to projectiles of any kind.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Vampires aren't harmed by the strength of the weapon wielder. In several places the new Vampire Kingdoms book repeats that the weapon used against vampires does not get any PS bonus damage, even if wielded by a character with supernatural PS. A wooden or silver weapon driven with the force of a train wouldn't do more than base damage.

I doubt the MDC weapon would do any better than the SDC equivalent, save for durability. An SDC weapon would likely never survive to take a second swing when held by a dragon, but an MDC one should.

well, that's a load of bull.

the only way wooden bullets (or railgun slugs) plausibly do any damage at all is the high speed impact.

Technically the high speed impact rules and the PS Damage rules are unrelated. So throwing a fastball with wooden spikes, deadball style, 100 MPH, would add damage that way.

That is a fascinating idea. I've never considered applying those rules to projectiles of any kind.

I would think the speed is already incorprated into any kind of Firearm or Bow listed damage, but objects thrown, especially by beings with supernatural strength, should definatly get impact damage, in my own opinion.

[ShadowLogan]

Vampires aren't harmed by the strength of the weapon wielder. In several places the new Vampire Kingdoms book repeats that the weapon used against vampires does not get any PS bonus damage, even if wielded by a character with supernatural PS. A wooden or silver weapon driven with the force of a train wouldn't do more than base damage.

I doubt the MDC weapon would do any better than the SDC equivalent, save for durability. An SDC weapon would likely never survive to take a second swing when held by a dragon, but an MDC one should.

well, that's a load of bull.

the only way wooden bullets (or railgun slugs) plausibly do any damage at all is the high speed impact.

Technically the high speed impact rules and the PS Damage rules are unrelated. So throwing a fastball with wooden spikes, deadball style, 100 MPH, would add damage that way.

That is a fascinating idea. I've never considered applying those rules to projectiles of any kind.

Well technically if you take the projectile's muzzle velocity of (for example) an M-16 (which is listed in some books) and apply that to the generic damage tables (either RMB or RUE) you actually end up doing 100s of points of damage from a single round (off hand I forget the result, but IIRC its MD short-hand is like 1d8 or 2d4).

I would also like to point out that Steeltree 'stuff' may or may not even count as wood.
I mean it is pretty clearly a metal, as it is smelted, forged, etc
Just because it grows doesn't make it a wood.

I would, off hand, say that a Vampire would simply laugh at a Steeltree weapon entirely.

The term "wood" is used so it is wood. Though as there are different levels of Steeltree (unforged, forged, alloy), and some of those levels might not qualify as "wood" anymore.

However the point maybe moot as on pg78 of WB26 it states "...who know of SteelTree forged materials say there is something magical about the process (and the wood)." Emphasis in original text. This suggests the result might be count as "magic weapon", so even if you don't consider it "wood" it might still be a danger due to its magical nature. I would note though that IINM this is the only mention of the magical nature of the material, and it is not presented as "fact" but speculation so a GM has some flexibility in allowing Steeltree to be effective (it counts as wood or its magical in nature).

[Jorick]

I don't know if it really matters, but I'm under the impression that wood hurts vampires because it's wood. Some force needs to be applied to make it go into a vampire, but how much force is irrelevant.

I do not imagine lead bullets (or lasers or whatever) bouncing off of vampires (maybe it states otherwise somewhere in the text, but I don't recall that). Rather, I imagine such things going into/through them no problem. Like zombies or whatever. Vampires just don't care. It's their incredible regeneration that keeps them standing, and no amount of anything (other than wood, silver, water or true sunlight of course) going through them will effect them (other than perhaps knocking them over).

Vampires in Rifts are like the fast uber-zombies of a lot of other fiction. Especially wild vampires. It's not even uncommon to have zombie/vampire hybrids in other fiction (movies and tv shows at least). They will just keep coming unless you do the thing that needs to be done (heart/head shot, or whatever). It's just harder in Rifts cause you absolutely need one of three materials (or true sunlight) to even get started stopping them.

I can see a use for MDC wood (and perhaps also a reason it was nerfed in the revised books): Vampires can wear MDC armor, which is a new focus of the revised books. One could conceivably use MDC wood-shooting machine guns all day. But the tension in the revised books centers on the need to alter tactics mid-combat. The normal materials do not/should not work until the armor is rendered useless. The characters will likely learn this the hard way. That's fun stuff. If you just roll in with an MDC tree tank regardless (and it works either way) then that tension is reduced considerably.

First adventure = wild vampires that don't stop until you learn the water/wood/silver trick. So you go from World War V to "I've found the antidote!" so to speak. Then you use the tricks you learned on the hordes, but all of a sudden you're dealing with more normal Vampire movie type vampires that inconspicuously run the club in town and all your base is belong to them. So you gotta deal with that. And that seems doable until they come at you in armor swinging plasma guns and all you brought was your water pistol and a few pieces of broken chair.

Hordes of zombies impervious to most things + smart/hipster-zombie special forces in effective armor + magic-wielding zombie leaders with demon buddies (+ Eldritch Horror in a temple ruin at the center of it all) is about as Rifts as Rifts gets, and I love all the potential for finding all the things out the hard way.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't know if it really matters, but I'm under the impression that wood hurts vampires because it's wood. Some force needs to be applied to make it go into a vampire, but how much force is irrelevant.

I do not imagine lead bullets (or lasers or whatever) bouncing off of vampires (maybe it states otherwise somewhere in the text, but I don't recall that). Rather, I imagine such things going into/through them no problem. Like zombies or whatever. Vampires just don't care. It's their incredible regeneration that keeps them standing, and no amount of anything (other than wood, silver, water or true sunlight of course) going through them will effect them (other than perhaps knocking them over)..

It says specifically that bullets and lasers do nothing except ruin their clothing with no effect. Nothing. There's no hole that's regenerated, blades just hit skin and stop dead. Even a boom gun just makes a hole in their jacket and doesn't even make them sway a little. page 21 vampire kingdoms revised. At most there's an optional rule for an explosion that would do 200 MDC or more to knock them off their feet, but again, that's all that happened--you knocked them down, they havn't sustained any injuries they need to regenerate from unless they happened to get hit with some wood fragments from the table behind them.

[Curbludgeon]

Vampires do not bleed when punched, stabbed, shot or otherwise injured. Sometimes there is a small trickle of blood, but nothing more

Energy blasts from high-tech weapons, lasers, ion blasters and particle beams, as well as electricity, lightning, and other forms of energy, do absolutely NO damage except to the vampire’s clothing. ...Impervious to normal fires, heat and cold. Normal fire, smoke, heat and cold do no damage or injury to vampires

This distinction between injury and damage lends credence to the notion that physical trauma can produce an entirely cosmetic effect. The vampire's regeneration refers to actual hit point damage, so isn't especially a factor here. Whether or not non-damaging injuries instantly fill with mist followed by flesh or sticks around for a few seconds for the sake of horror would be an individual choice. This is a better reflection of pop culture's depiction of vampires; I struggle to think of one example where a vamp is shown as bulletproof instead of unable to be harmed.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Vampires do not bleed when punched, stabbed, shot or otherwise injured. Sometimes there is a small trickle of blood, but nothing more

Energy blasts from high-tech weapons, lasers, ion blasters and particle beams, as well as electricity, lightning, and other forms of energy, do absolutely NO damage except to the vampire’s clothing. ...Impervious to normal fires, heat and cold. Normal fire, smoke, heat and cold do no damage or injury to vampires

This distinction between injury and damage lends credence to the notion that physical trauma can produce an entirely cosmetic effect. The vampire's regeneration refers to actual hit point damage, so isn't especially a factor here. Whether or not non-damaging injuries instantly fill with mist followed by flesh or sticks around for a few seconds for the sake of horror would be an individual choice. This is a better reflection of pop culture's depiction of vampires; I struggle to think of one example where a vamp is shown as bulletproof instead of unable to be harmed.

I havn't seen any pop culture vampire's who work like Palladium Vampires though. Does it matter if no other vampire works that way when Palladium clearly went out of their way making their own unique take on vampires? Palladium's vampires are bulletproof because Kevin thought it'd be funny to have the boom gun bounce off a vampire smirking at a glitter boy, and that's all the reason he needed to decide his vampires are bulletproof. Palladium vampires are their own breed that happens to be bulletproof.

[Curbludgeon]

Please provide a quote that says bullets bounce off. I have provided evidence for my argument. Appeals to authority are irrelevant. Dollars to donuts sez I can find an example in a Palladium text of a vamp laughing off an undamaging injury while pulling it out of their torso before you can find one of ricocheting bloodsuckas.

While the use of an Alien Intelligence is uncommon, and the vulnerability to squirt guns and flashlight crosses uncommonly inane, nothing about the Palladium depiction of vampires is unique.

[Axelmania]

I think a better description might be that a vampire bounces off of a boom gun burst, if using the knockback rules against kinetic MD attacks for them.

Lower-impact bullets probably wouldn't "bounce" off so much as expend their kinetic energy doing minimal and negligible knockback, and then falling down. Bullets bounce off hard stuff and vampire flesh may be soft enough to prevent that and slow them down.

I'd be interested in reading this text about vamps pulling undamaging bullets out of the torso.

[eliakon]

Please provide a quote that says bullets bounce off. I have provided evidence for my argument. Appeals to authority are irrelevant. Dollars to donuts sez I can find an example in a Palladium text of a vamp laughing off an undamaging injury while pulling it out of their torso before you can find one of ricocheting bloodsuckas.

While the use of an Alien Intelligence is uncommon, and the vulnerability to squirt guns and flashlight crosses uncommonly inane, nothing about the Palladium depiction of vampires is unique.

We dont know *what* happens to the vampire.
But it is stated that its clothes are damaged, not it.
That would mean that...its not damaged.

If it had holes poked in it, then it would be damaged...since that is, well...damage.

Especially since when scaled up you run into the problem of explosions... if we are to posit "they are temporarrally damaged as per a normal being, but just instantly regenerate" that
1) requires a special kind of regeneration that is not stated, aka providing an unwritten power
2) runs into the question of "but the normal damage is to be reduced to red-mist"


It would seem that the simplest solution is the easiest one...
...that they are supernatural beings that function the way they do because KS felt that was a good thing. And that part of that is that they simply ignore anything that doesn't fall into their vulnerabilities.
Especially since the exact text is "normal weapons do no damage to vampires. The monsters shrug off energy blasts, bullets, rail gun rounds, shrapnel, and even the fabled Boom Gun might as well be a pea shooter to the vampire." (emphasis mine)
They shrug off the effects. No mention of simply taking either temporary or cosmetic damage. Pea shooters do not shoot peas through people which then instantly heal up!
I would also point out that the Death Spike teams emulate this with cyborgs... which suggests that they think that the immunity is similar to armor.
Oh, and that the term used is "invulnerability" which in every other case in Palladium is just what it sounds like... you take no effect what so ever from the force you are invulnerable to. This would make this the only invulnerability in the game that works differently... which I find doubtful as it doesn't say that it works different than any other invulnerability!

[Shark_Force]

I don't know if it really matters, but I'm under the impression that wood hurts vampires because it's wood. Some force needs to be applied to make it go into a vampire, but how much force is irrelevant.

the problem with this assumption is that the damage for wooden weapons against vampires is based entirely on their damage to normal creatures, and *that* is *very definitely* beyond reasonable doubt based heavily on how much force is applied in a number of cases; an arrow, crossbow bolt, or especially bullet, are dealing their damage largely based on how much force is applied; an arrow is not superior to a knife because it is a superior weapon design capable of inflicting heavier wounds based on shape or size, it is based on the arrow being fired out of a weapon that stores a large amount of kinetic energy and then releases it, and that is only even *more* true for crossbow bolts and bullets.

which is why i think it is laughably absurd to claim that the strength of the person using the weapon is meaningless; if that is the case, then a wooden bullet should be more or less useless against a vampire. if hitting the vampire harder doesn't do anything extra, the only way to damage a vampire with a wooden bullet should be to fill a net with them and beat the vampire to death with the resulting object (hopefully the fibres of the net compress enough to allow the wood to hit as well), which would be worse in just about every way than a simple club. heck, a wooden club isn't even really going into a vampire at all, and it works just fine.

the claim that strength or force is irrelevant is completely inconsistent with the way that weapons that are only even remotely effective to begin with *because* they have a lot of power behind them function against these creatures.

[Curbludgeon]

In Palladium game rulesets, the word damage refers to deleterious changes in people or things which can be measured in some combination of Hit Points, S.D.C., and/or M.D.C.. The word injury however is not similarly constrained, and while occasionally synonymous with damage is most often used to describe trauma and other potentially lasting harm. What some people above are doing is treating the two words as fungible when they are not. There are multiple instances of phrases like "damage or injury" found with a moment's searching, as an example.

Vampires are mentioned as not bleeding when injured save via a stake to the heart. Their limited invulnerability refers to ways in which they are not damaged, save via normal fire/heat/cold, to which they suffer neither damage nor injury. Please compare this to other uses of the word invulnerable, such as the HU power, which also specifically references damage. The general method of this invulnerabilty is not gone into in a source I have yet found, save for specific examples of characters explicitly depicted as bulletproof and the like. In the example of a vampire being shot with a laser which damages their clothing, an individual table could interpret this as the vampire receiving a cosmetic injury which causes no damage and in no way impedes them, while the S.D.C. of the clothing was exceeded via damage. Having taken no damage, the vampire is then free to shrug off the incidental injury.

Exceptions to this interpretation can be found in fan fiction such as Hammer of the Forge. The most direct refutation of this notion, I believe, can be found in the introductory fluff text on Nightbane Main book pg 185. In that other sources do not make the claim explicit, not does it particularly line up with genre convention, adopting the body horror aesthetic found in Rifter 49's vampire article is likely to find more support at the average table than defining a vampire's skin as largely impenetrable.

[Jorick]

Neither of the following responses may satisfy, and that's ok with me, but I think the way I see things does not contravene or complicate the rules.

1. Superficial damage: The story of the Murder Wraith in Juicer Uprising describes the Wraith being "cored" with laser holes and resulting in "3 smoking holes in his chest . . . that went on to punch past the flimsy motel walls." Do with that what you will.

2. Wood not requiring strength. I think one could say "strength matters" with considerable support because mallets matter (for staking). However, the result is mystical, and is reflected by the normal Palladium damage meters, which in every case are an approximation of any given situation. In this situation, Vampires do not have physiology like anything else. Their hit points don't act like anything else's hit points, beyond acting as a damage meter. What we're measuring isn't strength against mundane physical objects, but the amount of mystical damage taken by a mystical being with a particular mystical body. A given wooden object does some amount of mystical damage to that body approximated by hit points. The logic doesn't have to proceed much beyond that. This "inconsistent" approximation occurs a lot, even in mundane situations. There is no rule for the "stopping power" of a handgun for instance. Strength modifiers present a sort of added level of finesse to the "minigame" of hand to hand combat (between mortals). When you're in that arena, there are an extra subset of rules. When immortal supernatural whatevers come into play, we're back to Rifts focusing on approximating elements of the world that are more significant to Rifts than they are other Palladium games.

All that being said, I wouldn't argue any of this at another GM's gaming table. Whatever colors you choose to paint the numbers of this universe are fine with me.

[Khanibal]

It's magic.