Supernatural Evil

[HarleeKnight]

What exactly registers as Supernatural Evil?

Will a supernatural person, such as a Sea Titan or a Demigod, with an Aberrant alignment, register as a Supernatural Evil?
I get demons and devils will and a ton of other things, but I don't believe my Demigod who believes in righteous retribution, at all costs, against those who do evil, should fall into this category. He restricts his "evil" actions to only evil doers, kinda like Dexter.

[Natasha]

Well, it's an evil alignment...

[Khanibal]

Yah, if the creature is A). Supernatural and B) miscreant, diabolical, or aberrant aligned, then it's C) Supernatural Evil. Of course if you're a peach of a fellow who is willing to mug a drug dealer, technically you're aberrant. As a GN I'd actually call you unprincipled. On the other hand if you handle pedophiles with 3 gallons of gas and a match, you're aberrant. According to the rules.

[Killer Cyborg]

What exactly registers as Supernatural Evil?

Will a supernatural person, such as a Sea Titan or a Demigod, with an Aberrant alignment, register as a Supernatural Evil?
I get demons and devils will and a ton of other things, but I don't believe my Demigod who believes in righteous retribution, at all costs, against those who do evil, should fall into this category. He restricts his "evil" actions to only evil doers, kinda like Dexter.

Dexter would be Aberrant.

[Khanibal]

Dexter would be Aberrant.

Just not supernatural, also the whole, 'Will he get caught?', bit got old for me pretty fast.

[Blackwater Sniper]

I've never really liked the fact that an alignment gets targeted.

The Coalition see themselves as Good; fighting for the future of the human race, fighting for Earth, and seeing the invaders as needing to be eliminated at all costs.

Most player characters see the Coalition as an evil organization out for their own selfish wishes and will run over anyone who doesn't see things their way.

Now if you want to target a supernatural creature that's a whole new story. They were created supernatural regardless how they act.

[Jorick]

I don't have the book definitions of alignment in front of me right now, so you can totally throw this in my face if I contradict them.



That being said I think you can argue Dexter is Principled (or Scrupulous, if following "the law of the land" is necessary for principled). The ends never justify the means for him. He must follow his code, which includes a process more thorough than the criminal justice system, no matter the outcome, and innocents can never die.

Someone like Magneto, on the other hand, has principals, and in his case those principles are the end that justifies any means. Innocents die all the time. Magneto is aberrant.

Coalition soldiers can be any alignment. Engaging in/with the Coalition does not define alignment. This is shown throughout the books via NPCs. The leaders/rulemakers are evil. Those who follow out of loyalty and/or ignorance are not defined by those leaders.

Alignment generally comes down to the ability to be aware of, and act in favor of, the dignity of innocents, or the potential thereof within any other being (you can argue that this is only relevant in our culture--or similar cultures--in the real world, but it's our game so that makes sense). If any other principal is more important than the other being then you are aberrant.

Justice always creates an ambiguity. Justice is the opposite of "two wrongs don't make a right." But justice is also seen as "good." Magneto, or Thanos, finds Justice by destroying a lot of stuff/people. Dexter finds it by bringing individuals to it through a painstaking process of adjudication (and his "father" can be seen as unprincipled at the very best, or aberrant, for putting him on that path). Justice is a big part of what we explore through alignments, and such moral ambiguities are constantly thrust upon us in Rifts.

Because of the ambiguities in the mortal world, the supernatural certainties of alignment seem oddly unambiguous. I would handle it based on situation. I think a Magneto type can come to be accepted by supernatural good (a rune-weapon or god or whatever) if the ends they choose align them with the good (being super loyal to that god, or agreeing with the weapon on appropriate behavior). But in the end I think it's a system of mystical trust. The aura identifies a tendency of behavior and world-view, and the protection circle is going to go by aura. It's up to the circle's creator to make a more subtle judgement.

[VIsgar]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Dexter would never show up as he's a lowly human.

Alignment is pretty set in this game and doesn't work with peoples personal opinions or "code". If you run around killing people premeditated you cannot be a good alignment.

[Blackwater Sniper]

Alignment is based on a series of laws whether natural or written.

Our alignments are based on how we see the world in relation to our Constitution and laws. We see this as a good thing, better than 99% of the rest of the countries on Earth.

When we look at the differences between our country and others, the more different they are from the way we do things the more likely we are to see them as "less good" or even "evil governments."

On the flip side, those other countries see the US as evil, oppressive, and wonder why we act the way we do.

Alignments are all perception from the position of the individual not the outsider. If it were the other way around, there could be two people standing side by side, one sees me as a savior who could do no wrong (Mr. Goody-goody) and the other person is thinking I'm going to rip out their throat for breathing wrong (Mr. Bad-guy).

[Axelmania]

Alignment guidelines as they pertain to obeying the law are very interesting when we look at what laws in places like Atlantis probably are, like you're probably obligated to aid slave captors similar to pre-CW US.

[Killer Cyborg]

Dexter would be Aberrant.

Just not supernatural, also the whole, 'Will he get caught?', bit got old for me pretty fast.

In the novels, he kinda was supernatural.
His "Dark Passenger" sometimes seemed like a possessing entity.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't have the book definitions of alignment in front of me right now, so you can totally throw this in my face if I contradict them.



That being said I think you can argue Dexter is Principled (or Scrupulous, if following "the law of the land" is necessary for principled). The ends never justify the means for him. He must follow his code, which includes a process more thorough than the criminal justice system, no matter the outcome, and innocents can never die.

That's just OCD aberrant.
And he strayed from the code over time anyway.

The whole "killing in cold blood" and "killing an unarmed foe" keeps him from being Good by Palladium standards, or even Selfish.
He has a dark code, and he lives by it. That's Aberrant.

[Blue_Lion]

According to the books a SN life form broadcast its alignment. So any SN that has an evil alignment would register as such.

[pad300]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Note that on the original topic, neither Sea Titan nor Demigod would qualify as Supernatural beings by this definition: If you kill one, they stay dead, not just reform in another dimension...

[Blue_Lion]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Note that on the original topic, neither Sea Titan nor Demigod would qualify as Supernatural beings by this definition: If you kill one, they stay dead, not just reform in another dimension...

Well if it is there native dimension they would die. If you kill them in say phase world if they are SN native to rifts earth they would reform in rifts earth just takes a while.

[pad300]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Note that on the original topic, neither Sea Titan nor Demigod would qualify as Supernatural beings by this definition: If you kill one, they stay dead, not just reform in another dimension...

Well if it is there native dimension they would die. If you kill them in say phase world if they are SN native to rifts earth they would reform in rifts earth just takes a while.

Got a source for that assertion? I can't recall seeing it called out anywhere that a Sea Titan (or a Demigod/Godling) would reform if killed outside of their native dimension. By contrast, the Dyval and Hades dimension books call out specifically that Deevils and Demons reform if killed outside of their home dimension.

[Khanibal]

That being said I think you can argue Dexter is Principled (or Scrupulous, if following "the law of the land" is necessary for principled). The ends never justify the means for him. He must follow his code, which includes a process more thorough than the criminal justice system, no matter the outcome, and innocents can never die.

Dexter tortures, not out of necessity, but because of his mental damage.

P.S. Not throwing in yer face, just explaining my opinion.

[The Beast]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Note that on the original topic, neither Sea Titan nor Demigod would qualify as Supernatural beings by this definition: If you kill one, they stay dead, not just reform in another dimension...

Well if it is there native dimension they would die. If you kill them in say phase world if they are SN native to rifts earth they would reform in rifts earth just takes a while.

Got a source for that assertion? I can't recall seeing it called out anywhere that a Sea Titan (or a Demigod/Godling) would reform if killed outside of their native dimension. By contrast, the Dyval and Hades dimension books call out specifically that Deevils and Demons reform if killed outside of their home dimension.

VIsgar just pointed it out. You included him in your quoting.

[pad300]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Note that on the original topic, neither Sea Titan nor Demigod would qualify as Supernatural beings by this definition: If you kill one, they stay dead, not just reform in another dimension...

Well if it is there native dimension they would die. If you kill them in say phase world if they are SN native to rifts earth they would reform in rifts earth just takes a while.

Got a source for that assertion? I can't recall seeing it called out anywhere that a Sea Titan (or a Demigod/Godling) would reform if killed outside of their native dimension. By contrast, the Dyval and Hades dimension books call out specifically that Deevils and Demons reform if killed outside of their home dimension.

VIsgar just pointed it out. You included him in your quoting.

What I said " neither Sea Titan nor Demigod would qualify as Supernatural beings by this definition". He is asserting that a Sea Titan/Demigod is a Supernatural Being, and thus would reform on earth if killed someplace like phase world. I want to see a reference that says a Sea Titan/Demigod is a what they are calling a Supernatural Being. There are plenty of things out there with SN attributes and MDC hides that are not Supernatural Beings - for example: some super-heroes, assorted mutant animals in SA1&2... This is in contrast to the Dimension Books specifically calling out that true Demons and Deevils reform in their home dimensions if killed outside.

[Blue_Lion]

I merely pointed out that if they are SN they would reform. Most SN do not tell us they reform. I do not need to prove my statement that if something is SN it would reform, as you quoted the rule that states it. Basically I restated a rule in my own words and never made a claim that any thing was SN, there is no reason for me to prove anything is SN.

However PAD300 made a statement of fact/evidence that they are not SN because they do not reform. So the one that made a statement that needs to be proven is accurate is PAD300. Prove they do not reform, as that was the evidence you provided to prove they are not SN. (hint the only way to prove they do not reform is to prove they are not SN. The biggest challenge to this is that SNPS wording in rue implies creatures with it are SN and we have book examples telling us when a creature with natural SNPS is not truly SN dragons and gargoyles. That means you need a book statement that states they are not SN.)


So do you have any evidence they do not reform when slain on another plain?-after all you presented it as evidence they are not SN.
(my statement has already been proven correct, but because your false attack I am going to insist you prove that your statement of fact is in line with RAW.)

Basically the one that made a claim about weather or not something is SN is PAD300 placing the requirement to prove a statemetn on PAD300.


No reason for me to prove a point I did not make, but there is one for you to prove the point you made.

[taalismn]

"We're dropping this Sea Titan in boiling lard here in Dyval to prove that he is NOT a supernatural being. We've bugged his quarters back on Rifts Earth to see if he rematerializes back on his homeworld. Lower away!!!"
"AAAAAUUUUGGGHHHHHHH!!!!"
"Now we wait."
******
(Five years later)
"Nope, no sign of him. Guess he wasn't supernatural. Too bad."

(Meanwhile, on Rifts Earth)
"I think you can come out of hiding, sir. "
"...no...no way....I'm not becoming a fish fritter again...."

[Blue_Lion]

"We're dropping this Sea Titan in boiling lard here in Dyval to prove that he is NOT a supernatural being. We've bugged his quarters back on Rifts Earth to see if he rematerializes back on his homeworld. Lower away!!!"
"AAAAAUUUUGGGHHHHHHH!!!!"
"Now we wait."
******
(Five years later)
"Nope, no sign of him. Guess he wasn't supernatural. Too bad."

(Meanwhile, on Rifts Earth)
"I think you can come out of hiding, sir. "
"...no...no way....I'm not becoming a fish fritter again...."

seams trying to summon him every 10 years would work better.

[VIsgar]

Sorry the page number is really 277.

I didn't want to type all four paragraphs but it also says "The ordeal of dying in the mortal plane prevents it from returning to that reality for decades, often 1d8x100 years.

[Axelmania]

In the novels, he kinda was supernatural.
His "Dark Passenger" sometimes seemed like a possessing entity.

Could he be a Reaper from Shadows of Light?

The whole "killing in cold blood" and "killing an unarmed foe" keeps him from being Good by Palladium standards, or even Selfish.

There isn't anything in good alignments preventing killing in cold blood, just "killing for pleasure". Dexter feels pleasure when he kills, but he doesn't kill ONLY for pleasure, he requires that killing them would improve society.

As far as Principled/Scrupulous being unable to ATTACK (much less kill) unarmed foes... well, I think everyone I've seen Dexter attack had at least one limb with a hand on it. They're all capable of punching him, so they're armed

Dexter tortures, not out of necessity, but because of his mental damage.

I thought he justified torture as a means of ascertaining their guilt so that he had a taped confession to listen to in case he ever doubted his past behavior?

I merely pointed out that if they are SN they would reform. Most SN do not tell us they reform. I do not need to prove my statement that if something is SN it would reform, as you quoted the rule that states it.

Technically, RUE 277 says "When struck down on Earth, the monster vanishes and reappears in its native environment."

If you are born on Rifts Earth and struck down elsewhere (Wormwood, Phase World) there's no text saying that you would come back.

Rifts Earth may have a unique property where supernatural creatures from other dimensions who visit it will respawn, even if they otherwise normally would not.

Which would really help in explaining why it is such a popular place to come, as normally this is a benefit that only Hadesians/Dyvalians enjoy.

"The ordeal of dying in the mortal plane prevents it from returning to that reality for decades" also puts a minimum waiting period of 20 years in place for situations where this applies. I guess this would apply even in cases where Hadesians/Dyvalians have accelerated revival with help from a Lord.

[DD The Shmey]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Dexter would never show up as he's a lowly human.

Alignment is pretty set in this game and doesn't work with peoples personal opinions or "code". If you run around killing people premeditated you cannot be a good alignment.

This quoted section of RUE is inconsistent with other published material in Rifts. Maybe it was a copy of something printed in beyond the supernatural where it might be true, or maybe it was poorly phrased and should have referred to a subsection of supernatural beings including supernatural intelligence's, demons, and devils, and supernatural entities. Elsewhere in various Rifts books there are numerous references to supernatural beings that do not meet the description you quoted from RUE.

For instance Dragons are quoted in many places as being supernatural beings, however they are neither immortal (their statistics list a life span) nor do they disintegrate and vanish like a ghost, teleportation back to their home dimension upon being slain in the mortal one. We know this because people make armor and things out of their scales and bones.

Another example in WB2 Atlantis it is stated multiple times that the Atlantis is populated mostly by supernatural beings. That most of the minions of the Splugorth are supernatural creatures. However most of the minions of the Splugorth, and residence of Atlantis are not immortal - Kydian, Kittani, Metztla, Dragons, and Gargoyles - all list a life span.

I believe that there is a much wider definition to supernatural being in the Rifts setting as a creature that has supernatural attributes and/or powers, and that the term supernatural being has been used interchangeably with supernatural evil, supernatural creature, and creature of magic.

[Natasha]

Yea, it's all over Beyond the Supernatural.

[Axelmania]

This quoted section of RUE is inconsistent with other published material in Rifts. Maybe it was a copy of something printed in beyond the supernatural where it might be true, or maybe it was poorly phrased and should have referred to a subsection of supernatural beings including supernatural intelligence's, demons, and devils, and supernatural entities. Elsewhere in various Rifts books there are numerous references to supernatural beings that do not meet the description you quoted from RUE.

If you read later in the section, it says "great supernatural", so I believe that's the intention. What happens to AIs and the like. Not what happens to Brodkil/Gurgoyles and the like.

Here's an interesting question about "home dimension" and demons...

Death Demons from DB10 can basically be "born" ("reborn"?) anywhere. A human from Rifts Earth might get turned into one on Phase World, or vice versa, as an example.

If they die, would they reincarnate on Hades like other Greater Demons? Would they reincarnate where their host was born, or where they finally turned into a demon? Or just not reincarnate at all no matter where they were slain?

Same question would also apply to Demon Knights from DB12. They are non-demons transformed into greater demons through a torturous ordeal on Cormal. Are they reincarnated on Hades, on Cormal, on the home planet of their original lifeform, or not at all?

What about people transformed into lesser Hadesians/Dyvalians using Deific powers? Do they reincarnate where they were transformed, where they were originally born, or not at all? Deific powers give ALL the powers of the species you're transformed into...

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've never really liked the fact that an alignment gets targeted.

The Coalition see themselves as Good; fighting for the future of the human race, fighting for Earth, and seeing the invaders as needing to be eliminated at all costs.

Most player characters see the Coalition as an evil organization out for their own selfish wishes and will run over anyone who doesn't see things their way.

Now if you want to target a supernatural creature that's a whole new story. They were created supernatural regardless how they act.

Just because someone beleives themselves to be good doesn't mean they're not evil. Plenty of villians see themselves as in the right.

Also, belonging to an evil empire does not make you evil by default. It's possible to be a good person working for a bad boss.

[Nekira Sudacne]

This quoted section of RUE is inconsistent with other published material in Rifts. Maybe it was a copy of something printed in beyond the supernatural where it might be true, or maybe it was poorly phrased and should have referred to a subsection of supernatural beings including supernatural intelligence's, demons, and devils, and supernatural entities. Elsewhere in various Rifts books there are numerous references to supernatural beings that do not meet the description you quoted from RUE.

If you read later in the section, it says "great supernatural", so I believe that's the intention. What happens to AIs and the like. Not what happens to Brodkil/Gurgoyles and the like.

Here's an interesting question about "home dimension" and demons...

Death Demons from DB10 can basically be "born" ("reborn"?) anywhere. A human from Rifts Earth might get turned into one on Phase World, or vice versa, as an example.

If they die, would they reincarnate on Hades like other Greater Demons? Would they reincarnate where their host was born, or where they finally turned into a demon? Or just not reincarnate at all no matter where they were slain?

The death demon says it overrides all supernatural aspects of the host with the death demon.
It also says in it's own text the only way to truely kill a Death Demon is to kill them in Hades where they cannot revive.

Thus whatever the native dimension of a death demon's host, the infection binds them to Hades instead.

Same question would also apply to Demon Knights from DB12. They are non-demons transformed into greater demons through a torturous ordeal on Cormal. Are they reincarnated on Hades, on Cormal, on the home planet of their original lifeform, or not at all?

That's answered right in the RCC writeup

If they are truly reborn as Greater Demons, then they are immortal and function the same as any other demon, and their life essence returns to Hades to be reborn again.

In short, so far, no one knows, because none have died prior to the outset of the war. If they are truely greater demons, they will be reborn in hades, and if they are not, but merely some manner of Super Witch, then they die.

What about people transformed into lesser Hadesians/Dyvalians using Deific powers? Do they reincarnate where they were transformed, where they were originally born, or not at all? Deific powers give ALL the powers of the species you're transformed into...

I think the answer to that is implicit in the above: Any mortal truely reborn as a Demon/Deevil becomes bound to Hades/Dyval as their native plane, regardless of their true origion.

[Blue_Lion]

Having supernatural (attributes) strength and/or endurance doesn't make you a supernatural creature

Rifts:UE says this about super natural creatures pg.227

all supernatural beings be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. they are not creatures of our earth or reality, but denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension.Thus, when slain on rifts earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. only when slain in their native dimension or similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed.

Dexter would never show up as he's a lowly human.

Alignment is pretty set in this game and doesn't work with peoples personal opinions or "code". If you run around killing people premeditated you cannot be a good alignment.

This quoted section of RUE is inconsistent with other published material in Rifts. Maybe it was a copy of something printed in beyond the supernatural where it might be true, or maybe it was poorly phrased and should have referred to a subsection of supernatural beings including supernatural intelligence's, demons, and devils, and supernatural entities. Elsewhere in various Rifts books there are numerous references to supernatural beings that do not meet the description you quoted from RUE.

For instance Dragons are quoted in many places as being supernatural beings, however they are neither immortal (their statistics list a life span) nor do they disintegrate and vanish like a ghost, teleportation back to their home dimension upon being slain in the mortal one. We know this because people make armor and things out of their scales and bones.

Another example in WB2 Atlantis it is stated multiple times that the Atlantis is populated mostly by supernatural beings. That most of the minions of the Splugorth are supernatural creatures. However most of the minions of the Splugorth, and residence of Atlantis are not immortal - Kydian, Kittani, Metztla, Dragons, and Gargoyles - all list a life span.

I believe that there is a much wider definition to supernatural being in the Rifts setting as a creature that has supernatural attributes and/or powers, and that the term supernatural being has been used interchangeably with supernatural evil, supernatural creature, and creature of magic.

As I understand it dragons are quoted in many places as creatures of magic and not super natural beings. PG 188 rue says "creatures of magic like faery folk, dragons, spinx …" pg 217 rue "It is important to note that the sphinx, dragons, unicorns, Faerie Folk and a handful of other superhuman beings possessing supernatural strength and abilities, but known as creatures a of magic, are not supernatural creatures"
rue 276. "It is important to note that the sphinx, dragons, unicorns, Faerie Folk and a handful of other superhuman beings possessing supernatural strength and abilities, but known as creatures a of magic, are not supernatural creatures."

I would also point out that while there is a general rule that supernatural creatures are immortal. Super natural creatures with a life span cam exist as an acceptation to that general rule. (there are even creatures listed as both creatures of magic and super natural such as the tengo.)
So it clear that dragons are not supernatural creatures as a general rule.

[Axelmania]

The death demon says it overrides all supernatural aspects of the host with the death demon.
It also says in it's own text the only way to truely kill a Death Demon is to kill them in Hades where they cannot revive.

Thus whatever the native dimension of a death demon's host, the infection binds them to Hades instead.

Nice find, thanks!

That's answered right in the RCC writeup

In short, so far, no one knows, because none have died prior to the outset of the war.

Ah, I forgot about the "if". Saying "return" is odd, since Cormal is not in Hades and there's no guarantee a Demon Knight (or a Death Demon) has even traveled there!

Perhaps some died, but if so it was too recent (haven't passed the minimum waiting period) to know if they returned there.

If they are truely greater demons, they will be reborn in hades, and if they are not, but merely some manner of Super Witch, then they die.

Any mortal truely reborn as a Demon/Deevil becomes bound to Hades/Dyval as their native plane, regardless of their true origion.

I've coined "Hadesian" (based on "Dyvalian" which has appeared in books) to refer to Hades Demons, since there are also non-Hades Lesser/Greater Demons.

What about stuff like Gurgoyles where you have Hades versians and non-Hades versions?

dragons are quoted in many places as creatures of magic and not super natural beings

Perhaps your RUE quotes only pertain to the new species in RUE.

Dragons and Gods:
*pg 14 "bites of a dragon will do full damage to other supernatural creatures, including other dragons"
*pg 87 "a god can tell whether someone is an ordinary mortal, a supernatural creature (for example, a dragon taking the form of a human) or another god"

Or else we're back to "being and creature mean different things but I can't tell you what, or where they are every explicitly described as different" type arguments.

I would also point out that while there is a general rule that supernatural creatures are immortal. Super natural creatures with a life span cam exist as an acceptation to that general rule. (there are even creatures listed as both creatures of magic and super natural such as the tengo.)

It sounds like more of a guideline (moreso intended for greater supernatural beings) than a rule.

[Blue_Lion]

Actually dragons being creatures of magic in rifts was not new to RUE in rifts RUE is just the most current rules on it. The source book from Palladium Fantasy -Dragons and Gods is not a rule book for Rifts and when different than rules for rifts rules win. (While the system is megaverssal each setting has setting specific tweak, so difference in rules are setting specific.) As written there is nothing in it that indicates the statement is limited to the write up for the dragons found only in RUE-it is actually in a different section of the book that the dragon RCC book, where they are telling you what a creature of magic is. Beings such as dragons, Faerie Folk, and the Sphinx are all creatures of magic. (so it literally says dragons are all creatures of magic not some but all.)Page 119 of rifts conversion book 1 (non revised) calls them creatures of magic.(left side second to last paragraph first sentence)-indicates they have been creatures of magic for quite some time in rifts. I think the issue comes from the term creatures of magic was not defined early on. (Rifts RPG listed them as supernatural creatures.) As the rules evolved how dragons where classified changed. Other things have had how they are defined change over time.) What dragons are defined in rifts is set by the last book written for rifts setting that defined them.


The statement on page 277 supernatural clearly states all supernatural beings, gods and demons are examples of them. Nothing in it contains a limiting qualifier so it is not a guide line limited to greater supernatural beings as you claim axelmania. As written there is nothing that indicates it is limited or was intended to be limited. (something in the text would need to have a limiting qualifier for your statement to be true.

So I will have to say there is no indication of that the statements are limited, so there is no reason to assume they are limited. The statements where defining supernatural and creatures of magic as a whole.

[The Beast]

Actually dragons being creatures of magic in rifts was not new to RUE in rifts RUE is just the most current rules on it. The source book from Palladium Fantasy -Dragons and Gods is not a rule book for Rifts and when different than rules for rifts rules win. (While the system is megaverssal each setting has setting specific tweak, so difference in rules are setting specific.) As written there is nothing in it that indicates the statement is limited to the write up for the dragons found only in RUE-it is actually in a different section of the book that the dragon RCC book, where they are telling you what a creature of magic is. Beings such as dragons, Faerie Folk, and the Sphinx are all creatures of magic. (so it literally says dragons are all creatures of magic not some but all.)Page 119 of rifts conversion book 1 (non revised) calls them creatures of magic.(left side second to last paragraph first sentence)-indicates they have been creatures of magic for quite some time in rifts. I think the issue comes from the term creatures of magic was not defined early on. (Rifts RPG listed them as supernatural creatures.) As the rules evolved how dragons where classified changed. Other things have had how they are defined change over time.) What dragons are defined in rifts is set by the last book written for rifts setting that defined them.


The statement on page 277 supernatural clearly states all supernatural beings, gods and demons are examples of them. Nothing in it contains a limiting qualifier so it is not a guide line limited to greater supernatural beings as you claim axelmania. As written there is nothing that indicates it is limited or was intended to be limited. (something in the text would need to have a limiting qualifier for your statement to be true.

So I will have to say there is no indication of that the statements are limited, so there is no reason to assume they are limited. The statements where defining supernatural and creatures of magic as a whole.

Page 97 of the RMB clearly states that dragons are CoM, in at least two different paragraphs on that page.

I will agree with you though that Palladium didn't fully define what CoM were back then, as evident by the many flip-flops on whether dragons are CoM or SNB.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does anybody know of any passage stating that being a Creature of Magic is mutually exclusive with being a Supernatural Being?

[The Beast]

Does anybody know of any passage stating that being a Creature of Magic is mutually exclusive with being a Supernatural Being?

Closest I can think of would be the definitions of the two terms in Mysteries of Magic 1.

[Blue_Lion]

Does anybody know of any passage stating that being a Creature of Magic is mutually exclusive with being a Supernatural Being?

The closest the comes to mind are the two quotes from RUE page 276 says all CoM are mortal creatures-while page 277 says all SN are immortal.

I would think that being mortal and immortal are mutually exclusive states.-so in currant rules they may very well be as a rule mutually exclusive, but there are always exceptions. The also tell us they will tell us when something is a CoM.

During some of the early books they call some creatures as both. The Tengu from rifts Japan wording implied that it was interchangeable. -rifts japan pg 68-Faerie folk; Japanese mountain goblin - considered a supernatural being or creature of magic."-so they may have not been at one time.

PG-(page 9 of the original book does make a statement about about SN including dragons, kind of implies that dragons are SN.)


I have not been auguring the two are Mutaully exclusive just that in rifts dragons are CoM not SN in rifts.(after all we know they are not immortal.)

[Prysus]

Does anybody know of any passage stating that being a Creature of Magic is mutually exclusive with being a Supernatural Being?

Greetings and Salutations. RUE, page 276, Creatures of Magic heading, second paragraph ...

All creatures of magic are mortal, meaning they habe a finite life span. [snip] Though removed from humanity by their magical nature, creatures of magic think and feel like humans, and live in the same world.

RUE, page 277, Demons, Gods, & Supernatural Beings heading, first paragraph ...

All supernatural beings, be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. They are not creatures of of our Earth or reality ...

ALL CoM are mortal and part of our world. ALL SN Beings are immortal and from an alien reality. Sounds mutually exclusive, but maybe someone can find a way to reconcile both into one.

And to address whether or not dragons are Supernatural Beings in RUE, page 276, Creatures of Magic, paragraph three ...

If you'd ask a dragon with whom he has more in common, he'd say "humans" and snarl at thr suggestion of anything else.

This is in regards to the distinction of creatures of magic and supernatural beings. This isn't a definitive rule, but it is an implication (combined with rule that dragons not being immortals from an alien world).

That's all for now. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[DD The Shmey]

dragons are quoted in many places as creatures of magic and not super natural beings

Perhaps your RUE quotes only pertain to the new species in RUE.

Dragons and Gods:
*pg 14 "bites of a dragon will do full damage to other supernatural creatures, including other dragons"
*pg 87 "a god can tell whether someone is an ordinary mortal, a supernatural creature (for example, a dragon taking the form of a human) or another god"

Or else we're back to "being and creature mean different things but I can't tell you what, or where they are every explicitly described as different" type arguments.

I find it silly that people are suggesting that dragons are not supernatural creatures when they are the most commonly cited examples of supernatural creatures within the Rifts books.

I started paging through a few Rifts books looking for example references and everywhere I looked I saw citations listing dragons as supernatural creatures. I also saw a bunch more other things described as supernatural beings, and supernatural creatures.

If I may add to your list, and this is by no means exhaustive.
WB2 Atlantis page 33 - "Most scholars in the arts of magic will agree that dragons, like the Splugorth, are supernatural beings who are masters of magic and dimensional travel. "

WB2 Atlantis page 17 under The Undead Slayer OCC there is a strong implication that Minions of the Splugorth are also supernatural - "... they are the trans-dimensional hunters and slayers of supernatural evil know as undead slayers. Their archenemies are vampires, vampire intelligence, and the minions of the Splugorth."

WB2 Atlantis pg 26 "Note: Remember, gargoyles and their relatives are supernatural predators ..."

WB21 Splynn pg 144 under corrupted millennium weapon Serpent-Slayer "... but inflicts double damages against dragons and other supernatural serpents."

I thought I would find more clear definitions of dragons as supernatural creatures in the write up for the Dragon Juicer ooc, but the closest I could find was under the insanity table WB10 Juicer Uprising pg49 - "Obsessed with fighting and killing dragons and other supernatural beings."

After looking at the Dragon Juicer, I checked the Mega-Juicer and found WB10 Juicer Uprising pg36 - "In the ppe rich world of Rifts Earth, the Mega-Juicer process creates a minor supernatural creature."

...

Due to all of these examples and many more, it is safe to say that the phrasing of the paragraph that VIsgar cited was made in error. Any implications drawn from this paragraph should be disregarded in any discussion of what is and is not a supernatural creature according to the Rifts setting.
I believe that the error of this paragraph was in its use of the word "being" instead of intelligence. That the title of the paragraph "Demon's, Gods, & Supernatural Beings" should have read as "Demon's, Gods, & Supernatural Intelligence" in the same vein as page 205 of the original Rifts Conversion Book.

Also I was under the impression that the phrases "creature of magic" and "supernatural creature" were used almost interchangeably. I know that creature of magic is more often used when talking about faerie folk
and some of the creatures from greek mythology that typically have a large ppe base and natural spell casting ability, whereas supernatural creature seems to be a term used more generally. I am less sure about the distinction between creature of magic and supernatural creature/being. I certainly don't believe that that the terms are mutually exclusive as dragons are described both creatures of magic and supernatural beings.

I would also point out that while there is a general rule that supernatural creatures are immortal. Super natural creatures with a life span cam exist as an acceptation to that general rule. (there are even creatures listed as both creatures of magic and super natural such as the tengo.)

It sounds like more of a guideline (moreso intended for greater supernatural beings) than a rule.

Yeah, maybe "greater supernatural being" might be something that you could use to describe a class of entities that includes demons, devils, gods, alien intelligences, elemental intelligences, and other entities that might fit the description of that quote in RUE pg277.

[Shark_Force]

the big problem is that palladium is not known for consistency. which means that sometimes dragons are described as supernatural beings (or at least, as being in the same general category of stuff as supernatural beings), and sometimes they are not at all. for example, in spells dealing with supernatural beings, none of them mention dragons (in some cases, they may even distinguish dragons as being creatures of magic instead of supernatural beings). it gets particularly frustrating when you consider that different authors (as with different fans) could have different opinions on whether dragons are or are not supernatural beings. and since you can't tell which references are caused by inconsistent writing, and which references are not, well... who knows, really?

my gut feeling: i don't think kevin intended for dragons to count as supernatural beings (they are supernatural in the sense that they have powers beyond what we as players would consider natural, but not in the sense of the category of creatures in various palladium rulesets), or at least, i don't think he did waaaaay back when he was writing the original rules. mostly because them being supernatural beings in the rules sense would mean you could use the same spells you control and summon demons and such with to control and summon dragons, and that isn't really something i'd expect the rules to have in them; summoning demons and spirits is a fairly standard fantasy trope, while summoning dragons is not.

but ultimately, i'm forced to admit, that's just a guess at this point. the whole thing has been muddled up beyond any reasonable chance of us coming to an answer, and kevin will probably just tell us to rule it however we want (if he gets around to answering it at all) most likely.

[Blue_Lion]

Just because scholars think something does not make it true.

The statement on the serpent slayer does seam to be calling them SN.

I think a more accurate statement is RUE changed how SN is defined.-It was a change to the core rules after all.
The wording itself says all SN not X Y or Z, so it does as written apply to all. But the wording would kind have removed many pre-existing SN from being SN if treated as blanket statement and change of how the term was defined.


I propose this compromise based on the text.
1 all creatures listed as SN with a life span be treated as miss labeled CoM do to a change in the rules about classification.
2 all creatures that have SN abilities and or innate RCC magic and are immortal are SN and reform when killed off their native plane.
(this means no mortal SN reforming when killed.)

Is this acceptable?

[Killer Cyborg]

Does anybody know of any passage stating that being a Creature of Magic is mutually exclusive with being a Supernatural Being?

Greetings and Salutations. RUE, page 276, Creatures of Magic heading, second paragraph ...

All creatures of magic are mortal, meaning they habe a finite life span. [snip] Though removed from humanity by their magical nature, creatures of magic think and feel like humans, and live in the same world.

RUE, page 277, Demons, Gods, & Supernatural Beings heading, first paragraph ...

All supernatural beings, be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. They are not creatures of of our Earth or reality ...

ALL CoM are mortal and part of our world. ALL SN Beings are immortal and from an alien reality. Sounds mutually exclusive, but maybe someone can find a way to reconcile both into one.

Great answer!

[Nekira Sudacne]

What about stuff like Gurgoyles where you have Hades versians and non-Hades versions?

I got an offical answer for that from Carl Gleba

Basically he simply missed that Gargoyles and gargoyle sub-species reproduce sexually in the Triax book. and he said that because of that, the rules in Hades about them being reborn in DB10 was in error and Gargoyles and subspecies of gargoyles are not reborn anywhere at all.

[Blue_Lion]

Does anybody know of any passage stating that being a Creature of Magic is mutually exclusive with being a Supernatural Being?

Greetings and Salutations. RUE, page 276, Creatures of Magic heading, second paragraph ...

All creatures of magic are mortal, meaning they habe a finite life span. [snip] Though removed from humanity by their magical nature, creatures of magic think and feel like humans, and live in the same world.

RUE, page 277, Demons, Gods, & Supernatural Beings heading, first paragraph ...

All supernatural beings, be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. They are not creatures of of our Earth or reality ...

ALL CoM are mortal and part of our world. ALL SN Beings are immortal and from an alien reality. Sounds mutually exclusive, but maybe someone can find a way to reconcile both into one.

Great answer!

I found a better one.
Vampire Kingdome revised. 80.
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are NOT supernatural beings, though they share many of the same abilities and aspects, so that people often confuse the two. The big difference is that creatures of magic are mortal. They may be long-lived but they are mortal and die. Supernatural beings are immortal and perish only when slain by a third party.

I guess the confustion found in the books just proves the statement on page 276 rue.
"The distinction between creatures of magic and the supernatural is lost on many people, because they both possess superhuman powers and/or the ability to cast spells. "


So vampire kingdoms states they are mutually eclusive.

[eliakon]

(sorry I have to say this)
The question was? What detects as supernatural evil?
*sings*
"If your supernatural and your evil clap your hands"
If your supernatural and your evil clap your hands
If your supernatural and your evil then the world is gonna know it 'cause your aura's gonna show it
So if your supernatural and your evil clap your hands"


Edit
Yes, this is my stance btw.
Venn Diagram time.
Draw a circle containing "All things that are supernatural, yes including that supernatural thing there"
Draw another circle containing "All things that have the alignments Aberrant, Diabolic, or Miscreant"
Where they overlap is "Supernatural Evil" and is detectable as such.

This is really one of the simpler cut and dry parts of the game honestly. There doesn't seem to be much room for discussion other than "This is how we house rule this" because the rule is pretty clear, concise and simple.

[Nekira Sudacne]

(sorry I have to say this)
The question was? What detects as supernatural evil?
*sings*
"If your supernatural and your evil clap your hands"
If your supernatural and your evil clap your hands
If your supernatural and your evil then the world is gonna know it 'cause your aura's gonna show it
So if your supernatural and your evil clap your hands"


Edit
Yes, this is my stance btw.
Venn Diagram time.
Draw a circle containing "All things that are supernatural, yes including that supernatural thing there"
Draw another circle containing "All things that have the alignments Aberrant, Diabolic, or Miscreant"
Where they overlap is "Supernatural Evil" and is detectable as such.

This is really one of the simpler cut and dry parts of the game honestly. There doesn't seem to be much room for discussion other than "This is how we house rule this" because the rule is pretty clear, concise and simple.

For once, I have to agree with eliakon without reservation. It's really, REALLY cut and dry.

The only room for vaugeness is defining if a particular critter is supernatural or a creature of magic, which Palladium can be kind of vauge in places on.

As to the OP character, he sounds the textbook definition of Abberent to me. An honorable character who adheres to his own Moral Code that justifies doing evil to people who are unworthy of being treated with decency.

Dexter is himself textbook abberent, so yea. He's definatly Supernatural Evil and reads as such. If he ever checks his own aura and sees that, maybe he reconsiders his actions, or more likely he becomes convinced it's some kind of trick or curse placed on him to fool others.

[Axelmania]

What about stuff like Gurgoyles where you have Hades versians and non-Hades versions?

I got an offical answer for that from Carl Gleba

Basically he simply missed that Gargoyles and gargoyle sub-species reproduce sexually in the Triax book. and he said that because of that, the rules in Hades about them being reborn in DB10 was in error and Gargoyles and subspecies of gargoyles are not reborn anywhere at all.

Nice! Although I don't understand why you linked that thread... and Gleba didn't say Gargoyles were no longer Supernatural either, I take it?

Vampire Kingdome revised. 80.
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are NOT supernatural beings, though they share many of the same abilities and aspects, so that people often confuse the two. The big difference is that creatures of magic are mortal. They may be long-lived but they are mortal and die. Supernatural beings are immortal and perish only when slain by a third party.

People have brought this up before and it's clearly silly because "slain by a third party" implies you can't commit suicide. Who is the 2nd party anyway, father time?

This statement simply means that being a CoM is not a guarantee that you are a supernatural being. It is more "not all Creatures of Magic are Supernatural Beings" than "all Creatures of Magic are not Supernatural Beings".

BL are you aware that Mega-Juicers are supernatural beings? Do they seem like immortals? Do you truly think every explicitly supernatural being out there is lifespanless? Does becoming an Undead Slayer make a True Atlantean into an immortal?

I guess the confustion found in the books just proves the statement on page 276 rue.
"The distinction between creatures of magic and the supernatural is lost on many people, because they both possess superhuman powers and/or the ability to cast spells. " So vampire kingdoms states they are mutually eclusive.

It doesn't. The phrase "mutually exclusive" doesn't appear.

"Creatures of magic are NOT supernatural beings" is like "bakers are NOT wrestlers". Saying "not" is not like saying "never".

Defining them as different things with different meanings does not mean a sentient being cannot be both things.

[Blue_Lion]

What about stuff like Gurgoyles where you have Hades versians and non-Hades versions?

I got an offical answer for that from Carl Gleba

Basically he simply missed that Gargoyles and gargoyle sub-species reproduce sexually in the Triax book. and he said that because of that, the rules in Hades about them being reborn in DB10 was in error and Gargoyles and subspecies of gargoyles are not reborn anywhere at all.

Nice! Although I don't understand why you linked that thread... and Gleba didn't say Gargoyles were no longer Supernatural either, I take it?

Vampire Kingdome revised. 80.
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are NOT supernatural beings, though they share many of the same abilities and aspects, so that people often confuse the two. The big difference is that creatures of magic are mortal. They may be long-lived but they are mortal and die. Supernatural beings are immortal and perish only when slain by a third party.

People have brought this up before and it's clearly silly because "slain by a third party" implies you can't commit suicide. Who is the 2nd party anyway, father time?

This statement simply means that being a CoM is not a guarantee that you are a supernatural being. It is more "not all Creatures of Magic are Supernatural Beings" than "all Creatures of Magic are not Supernatural Beings".

BL are you aware that Mega-Juicers are supernatural beings? Do they seem like immortals? Do you truly think every explicitly supernatural being out there is lifespanless? Does becoming an Undead Slayer make a True Atlantean into an immortal?

I guess the confustion found in the books just proves the statement on page 276 rue.
"The distinction between creatures of magic and the supernatural is lost on many people, because they both possess superhuman powers and/or the ability to cast spells. " So vampire kingdoms states they are mutually eclusive.

It doesn't. The phrase "mutually exclusive" doesn't appear.

"Creatures of magic are NOT supernatural beings" is like "bakers are NOT wrestlers". Saying "not" is not like saying "never".

Defining them as different things with different meanings does not mean a sentient being cannot be both things.

While the phrase mutually esclusive does not appear, it does say that CoM are not SN, that would make it a statement making them mutually exclusive.


And who gave you the authority to decide a rule/quote is not valid. While you make think it is silly it is the rule.

If you say that CoM are not SN creatures, that means that a CoM can never be SN. It a statement about classification not occupation so it is not like your example of transient occupations. It would be more like saying a cats are not a dogs. (it is setting a case where one is not the other, in how things are classified.)

[Nekira Sudacne]

What about stuff like Gurgoyles where you have Hades versians and non-Hades versions?

I got an offical answer for that from Carl Gleba

Basically he simply missed that Gargoyles and gargoyle sub-species reproduce sexually in the Triax book. and he said that because of that, the rules in Hades about them being reborn in DB10 was in error and Gargoyles and subspecies of gargoyles are not reborn anywhere at all.

Nice! Although I don't understand why you linked that thread... and Gleba didn't say Gargoyles were no longer Supernatural either, I take it?

Go to the second page, the answer from Carl Gleba is in that thread

And he didn't address it directly, but, sinse he said Gargoyles now use the Triax entry, which defines them as having lifespans of no more than 1000 years, which combined with innate abilities would define them as Creatures of Magic instead

[Axelmania]

Oh you mean http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/v ... 2#p2628832

Nekira, thanks for pointing this out to me. No I must have missed the biological reproduction of Gargoyles. With that i would say they would not be reborn in Hades.

Nice

[Curbludgeon]

In what way is an offhand comment on an unrelated thread official? Even those Rifter articles that are to be assumed as such from then on are only "official." The most Gleba would have been able to do in that thread is apologize.

I take issue with the epistemological leap that because PB staff are unable or unwilling to produce indexable errata players are empowered to cobble together their own.