do different HtH Stack?

[DB 2.0]

Do Different types of HtH Stack? I've got a character I haven't played in about two decades but am being a opportunity to play them again, they have some levels behind them, they have HtH Merc as an OCC skill but is shifting in to an OCC that has Non-Man-at-Arms as an elective skill (yes it's a 1E character).

I know under 1e rules that my current HtH & WP's will be frozen at my old level, but If I take HtH NMaA will my new combat bonuses stack or will I have to start a new combat record and choose which HtH I'm going to use at any given time?

[Lord Malachdrim]

If memory serves they do not stack. Instead you use the bests bonus between the two.

[DB 2.0]

Ok good to know, I'm going from my old OCC to a Man of Magic (Mind Mage) posing as a Scholar, a couple of the players know about the fake OCC, but not the real one or the fact the character has an old OCC with some levels, I'm even faking my characters Homeland & Background.

[kiralon]

Are you playing first ed or second ed with a first ed character, as I didn't think multiple OCC's were possible with 2nd ed mind mages.

[Veknironth]

Well, as Kiralon said, the bonuses do not stack. If they stacked, you could take all 4 Hand to Hand skills, plus boxing, and end up with 12 Attacks per melee at level 2.

-Vek
"What you want is the Scholar Monk with the automatic dodge, and then switch."

[DB 2.0]

just checking.

[eliakon]

You keep track of the two skills, and basically its similar to N&SS.
You can use one or the other at a time.
Thus you can either use H2H X or H2H Y in any given round, but you don't mix and match abilities or combine them in any way. They are separate 'skills' and you use one or the other.

[the ancient gamer]

You can't pile on attacks, but OF COURSE the other bonuses stack. There is nothing in the original rules prohibiting that, nor should there be.

[Veknironth]

Well, there's nothing that says you can't pile on attacks either.

-Vek
"No stacking"

[kiralon]

For second ed
On skills that are repeated you use the one with the highest bonuses. Even though it gives multiple bonuses a hth style is one skill so you get to choose which one you want to use and can't just pick the best bonuses from both. N&S lets you choose between the 2 each round.
When changing class you need a teacher, if the class is a similar class (soldier to ranger, or thief to paladin) there is no xp negative if you have a teacher.
If you go from warrior class to mage or vice versa it costs double xp to go up levels if you have a teacher
if you don't have a teacher it costs triple the xp to go up a level

First ed was a bit different as if the skill came with a bonus the bonus was added but the base skill didn't go up level by level until it became a higher level in the new class, which is complicated by having skills start at level 1 when picked at a higher level. Luckily for hth there are very few classes that have hth/weapon bonuses that aren't part of the skills levelling table. Undead hunters get +1 attack per melee at level 5, and this is a bonus that would stack if he changed class to say thief, the thief hth style would get the undead hunters bonus attack at level 5, but not the bonuses from hth paladin to strike parry dodge and damage as they aren't skill bonuses but skill levelling.

[DB 2.0]

Well I know my character isn't going to carry their Kobold crafted Orichalcum Kopis (+3 Dam, +1 Parry & Strike) set with a Pisionic Crystal (Luck: Fighting, +1 Dodge, +1 Inish), just a collection of Knives & Daggers

[the ancient gamer]

Well, there's nothing that says you can't pile on attacks either.

Ummm...yeah, there is. Attacks per round is specified.

[Axelmania]

Everything stacked in 1st edition because it didn't say otherwise. What a time to live.

[kiralon]

It did actually sort of say otherwise. Number of attacks was a set number, not a plus, and to quote the first ed book on weapon proficiencies.
The skill tables indicate the specific bonuses per level of experience, per weapon type.
so it told you that the weapon profiency numbers weren't cumulative, except in palladium style where it says the bonuses are usually cumulative for skills. However the tables weren't bonus's.
So it told you specifically what the plus was for each level at each level. It didn't say that for the hth table but it is implied as that table is similar to the weapon proficiency ones, and the fact that number of attacks was set at each of the levels.

[the ancient gamer]

It did actually sort of say otherwise. Number of attacks was a set number, not a plus, and to quote the first ed book on weapon proficiencies.
The skill tables indicate the specific bonuses per level of experience, per weapon type.
so it told you that the weapon profiency numbers weren't cumulative, except in palladium style where it says the bonuses are usually cumulative for skills. However the tables weren't bonus's.
So it told you specifically what the plus was for each level at each level. It didn't say that for the hth table but it is implied as that table is similar to the weapon proficiency ones, and the fact that number of attacks was set at each of the levels.

Weapon proficiencies, of course, do not stack. Hand to hand skill bonuses do (and keep in mind we're still talking first edition). There is nothing, anywhere, that "implies" that not stacking is the case. And why would it? What would be the benefits of switching from one man-at-arms O.C.C. to another if you didn't get both skills?

[kiralon]

Well it says only the bonuses stack for skills, and the bonuses a the little bits in parenthesis on the occ page, not the level updates from the skill tables which are pluses. The HTH pluses are from the skill tables, and you can only use 1 skill at a time (you will notice hth's are under skills, otherwise im going to track, id tracks, cook, tumble, ride, speak 3 different languages and backflip to level 5 all with the 1 percentile roll as well). People who want to use the pluses from both are effectively using 2 skills with 1 roll. The roll just happens to be a d20 rather than a percentile. You can choose which one you want to use (so you need the plusses worked out for both) but they don't stack.

I actually joined a group where they thought the wp plusses were cumulative.

[the ancient gamer]

Well it says only the bonuses stack for skills, and the bonuses a the little bits in parenthesis on the occ page, not the level updates from the skill tables which are pluses. The HTH pluses are from the skill tables, and you can only use 1 skill at a time (you will notice hth's are under skills, otherwise im going to track, id tracks, cook, tumble, ride, speak 3 different languages and backflip to level 5 all with the 1 percentile roll as well). People who want to use the pluses from both are effectively using 2 skills with 1 roll. The roll just happens to be a d20 rather than a percentile. You can choose which one you want to use (so you need the plusses worked out for both) but they don't stack.

I actually joined a group where they thought the wp plusses were cumulative.

Particular skills--Cooking, etc.--are particular skills. Yet again--why would a man-at-arms-OCC character switch to a different man-at-arms class if he didn't improve his combat abilities (HTH)? And to suggest that a character chooses between combat skills, DURING combat is beyond silly.

[kiralon]

Your argument still doesn't address the fact of why should hth's be treated differently to other skills. They are in the skill list, they take a skill slot to take if you don't get it from your occ, they are laid out like wp's (why can't you then add wp blunt plusses to wp staff plusses, a staff is blunt).
Being a silly rule (not that it is) isn't reason enough. WP Paired is silly, but I'd bet you use them.
I have had a longbowman who changed classes to get better plusses.
Changing to thief gives backstab
changing to soldier gives solid defensive bonuses
changing to knight or paladin gives good offensive bonuses
Changing to longbowman or ranger lets you use the longbow and maybe survive outdoors.
and you still get an extra 1d6 hp per extra level

so plenty of good reasons to change

Treating hth's differently to skills when there isn't any reason to (other then personal preference), and lots of reasons to treat them as a skill generally means you treat them as a skill. You can of course house rule it but from what I have seen in the book its 1 skill use at a time, so no bonuses from the other class.
If there is a rule somewhere that says don't treat them as a skill I would love to see it. Even after all this time I have missed things in the books.

[the ancient gamer]

Your argument still doesn't address the fact of why should hth's be treated differently to other skills. They are in the skill list, they take a skill slot to take if you don't get it from your occ, they are laid out like wp's (why can't you then add wp blunt plusses to wp staff plusses, a staff is blunt).
Being a silly rule (not that it is) isn't reason enough. WP Paired is silly, but I'd bet you use them.
I have had a longbowman who changed classes to get better plusses.
Changing to thief gives backstab
changing to soldier gives solid defensive bonuses
changing to knight or paladin gives good offensive bonuses
Changing to longbowman or ranger lets you use the longbow and maybe survive outdoors.
and you still get an extra 1d6 hp per extra level

so plenty of good reasons to change

Treating hth's differently to skills when there isn't any reason to (other then personal preference), and lots of reasons to treat them as a skill generally means you treat them as a skill. You can of course house rule it but from what I have seen in the book its 1 skill use at a time, so no bonuses from the other class.
If there is a rule somewhere that says don't treat them as a skill I would love to see it. Even after all this time I have missed things in the books.

Ummm...getting backstab from the Thief O.C.C. comes from the HTH skill. Defensive bonuses from Soldier come via the HTH skill. Knight/Palladin offensive bonuses come via the HTH skill...unless you're talking solely the critical hit numbers.

And the hit point increase per level COMPLETELY ignores my man-at-arms to man-at-arms O.C.C. switch point I made earlier. Why wouldn't a character change to Warlock or something, if his combat skills didn't improve?

[kiralon]

And the hit point increase per level COMPLETELY ignores my man-at-arms to man-at-arms O.C.C. switch point I made earlier. Why wouldn't a character change to Warlock or something, if his combat skills didn't improve?
snip

And those points about hth skills do show that he improves, getting backstab is an improvement, getting better bonuses to parry and dodge is an improvement.
HTH soldier is superior to hth long bowman, so if he switches, even though the plusses don't stack, he still gets better plusses.
amd if he changes to a long bowman, the bonus there is he can use a longbow etc

Say a lvl 2 soldier/lvl 2 long bowman with no other bonuses fights he can either choose to use hth soldier or hth long bowman for the round (They are a per round skill usage, you can tell by the separate number of attacks) soldier gives him +1 Damage and 2 attacks a round, or he can use hth long bowman with +1 damage and +2 dodge. So if he wants 2 attacks a round he will only get +1 to damage for the round, or he can choose to use long bowman and get 1 attack per round with +2 dodge.
He doesn't get 3(or 2) attacks per round with +2 damage and +2 dodge.

and all you mentioned was a switch from man at arms to man at arms, switching to a magic class means that if he was high enough level man at arms he doesn't need to take hth non men at arms as his plusses are already better.


I'm starting to wonder if we are arguing the same thing
Im saying in first ed combat plusses don't stack if you take multiple classes. You either use one hth or the other per round, not add the plusses together and use a hybrid hth soldier/longbowman

[Axelmania]

you can only use 1 skill at a time

Source?

[kiralon]

Not sure if your trolling me or not, so my answer is you show me where it says you can use more than 1 skill per action and ill show you where it says using a skill takes an action (at least), otherwise, while im forging, ill pick that lock, ride a horse, read a book, search for herbs and as I have a ps of 20 I will carry 49 claymore swords in my left hand for giggles (doesn't say you can't), and draw a 1 mile circle (doesn't say my hands have to be free to draw a circle)

Hint - Its in the combat section of the main book.

[Axelmania]

If it required a full action for every use of a skill, that's going to cause you some serious problems jousting when you're combining WP Lance, WP Shield and Horsemanship. I would be very interested in being shown where that text is.

[kiralon]

Look under melee action under page 46.
Its just an effect of having turn based combat.
Using common sense there are things you can do that were a skill check, that then continue afterwards, like riding and fighting, but I don't think simultaneous use of hth basic and hth expert is one of them. Mostly because they are full round usages. To get 3 actions in a round from hth expert, you have to use hth expert for the full round.
Its one of the downsides of the multiclassing rules. Palladium wasn't made for multiclassing.

[The Beast]

Do Different types of HtH Stack? I've got a character I haven't played in about two decades but am being a opportunity to play them again, they have some levels behind them, they have HtH Merc as an OCC skill but is shifting in to an OCC that has Non-Man-at-Arms as an elective skill (yes it's a 1E character).

I know under 1e rules that my current HtH & WP's will be frozen at my old level, but If I take HtH NMaA will my new combat bonuses stack or will I have to start a new combat record and choose which HtH I'm going to use at any given time?

The only HtH combat forms that stack are Hwarang-Do Karate and Moo Gi Gong. Both of those are found in the Ninjas & Superspies book. All the other forms are tracked separately, and as was pointed out previously, must be maintained for the entire melee round.

[Veknironth]

Well, there seems to be a 1st Ed/2nd Ed problem in this. If you think of this in a 2nd edition view, then it makes no sense that you could have Hand to Hand: Martial Arts, pick up Hand to Hand:Expert, and then pick up no additional attacks but still get an additional +2 to roll and pull punch. Then you take Hand to Hand:Basic, and add on an additional +2 to roll/pull punch? If you move to 2nd level in each, then you've picked up an additional +5 to parry and dodge. What happens if you start with H2H:Assassin, get to level 2, and then switch to H2H: Martial Arts and make it to level 4? How many attacks do you have?

If you're switching in 1st edition, then I think you're fighting with one "style" or another. So, you're fighting like a Paladin or like a Thief. So, you'd have the bonuses of whichever H2H skill and level in that skill you have achieved.

"I still maintain starting as a Monk Scholar and getting the automatic dodge is the way to go."

[Axelmania]

Look under melee action under page 46.

Firstly, I'm talking about 1e not 2e

Secondly: nowhere under the definition of Melee Action does it prohibit doing something like riding a horse and attacking at the same time.

Its just an effect of having turn based combat.
Using common sense there are things you can do that were a skill check, that then continue afterwards, like riding and fighting, but I don't think simultaneous use of hth basic and hth expert is one of them. Mostly because they are full round usages.

That's only explicitly defined in Ninjas and Superspies, the Palladium RPG never limits HTH skills that way.

To get 3 actions in a round from hth expert, you have to use hth expert for the full round.
Its one of the downsides of the multiclassing rules. Palladium wasn't made for multiclassing.

It doesn't say anywhere you're limited to using the actions of just one form for the whole round in the Palladium RPG.

The only HtH combat forms that stack are Hwarang-Do Karate and Moo Gi Gong. Both of those are found in the Ninjas & Superspies book. All the other forms are tracked separately, and as was pointed out previously, must be maintained for the entire melee round.

This is not written anywhere in the Palladium RPG, you are deciding on a house rule to apply the rules for N&SS Martial Art Forms to Palladium RPG's HTHs.

[kiralon]

1st ed doesn't have melee actions, just melee attacks if you look. Melee actions was introduced in second ed.
so it can only apply to second ed if you want go by what's written in the book. That there would preclude riding and fighting if things that aren't written are included.

1st ed has unlimited class changes. So if someone changes into every class ever made they get to add all the bonuses together and have 20 attacks per melee even though they didn't get past level 3 in any of them? lol.

and the biggest point is it doesn't say anywhere you can either that I have seen that mentions adding bonuses together for different hth's, so if you have found something that says you can do it I would like to see it. Even after 30 years I'm still finding new tidbits.

[Axelmania]

1st ed has unlimited class changes. So if someone changes into every class ever made they get to add all the bonuses together and have 20 attacks per melee even though they didn't get past level 3 in any of them? lol.

Well, keep in mind that according to The time of study between O.C.C.'s (yucky apostrophe abuse) that you need the equivalent of second level in experience.

I'm not entirely sure if that refers to the amount of XP that level begins at or ends at... I guess you could go with "ends at" (ie 1 less than needed to achieve level 3 for most, 1 less than needed to achieve level 4 for the mages) to make it harder to multi-class.

So you're thinking be a 2nd level soldier, 3rd level merc, 4th level non-men, 2nd level knight, 2nd level paladin, 3rd level long bowman, 2nd level assassin, 3rd level range and 2nd level thief to get 9 extra attack?

The attribute requirements of such OCCs make it pretty unlikely most people could accomplish it. I don't see any problem, especially since this is attacks per MINUTE. Even with 10 attacks you're still only attacking once per 6 seconds.

and the biggest point is it doesn't say anywhere you can either that I have seen that mentions adding bonuses together for different hth's, so if you have found something that says you can do it I would like to see it. Even after 30 years I'm still finding new tidbits.

You are instructed to add bonuses to dice rolls.

You're going to need to find rules which tell you when NOT to add those bonuses, if you want to ignore them. When a bonus is applicable, you must opt out.

[kiralon]

The attribute requirements of such OCCs make it pretty unlikely most people could accomplish it. I don't see any problem, especially since this is attacks per MINUTE. Even with 10 attacks you're still only attacking once per 6 seconds.

Yep, and when you get to level 15 in each (backflip to level 15, will take about 30 days per class) which is easily done you end up with over 60 attacks per minute, compared to everyone elses 5

You are instructed to add bonuses to dice rolls.

Source? (There is a bit that says most bonuses are cumulative mind you)

You're going to need to find rules which tell you when NOT to add those bonuses, if you want to ignore them. When a bonus is applicable, you must opt out.

Source?

[Axelmania]

when you get to level 15 in each (backflip to level 15, will take about 30 days per class)

Good thing Back Flip didn't exist in PRPG, though I guess you might get a similar effect of "using a skill, successful or not" by repeatedly using a WP skill to whack a practise dummy.

You are instructed to add bonuses to dice rolls.

Source? (There is a bit that says most bonuses are cumulative mind you)

I suppose the general guideline you're looking for is "BONUSES IN COMBAT" found on the top of the right column of page 42 of the Palladium roleplaying game.

All bonuses add to the character's ability to successfully accomplish some action. Bonuses are added to the die roll modifying the final outcome of the roll. Most bonuses are cumulative.

I suppose we would have to decide if we're talking about an opt-in cumulative (assume non-cumulative until told cumulative) or an opt-out cumulative (assume cumulative until told non-cumulative).

Do you recall any examples in the book which expliclty opt in or opt out cumulativeness?

You're going to need to find rules which tell you when NOT to add those bonuses, if you want to ignore them. When a bonus is applicable, you must opt out.

Source?
[/quote]
I believe "all bonuses add" and "bonuses are added" to be the default policy. Non-cumulative interferes with that addition and I think since it is a minority case (since MOST are cumulative) that the minority case requires explicit instruction.

For example: page 58 gives 3rd-level wizard +1 to save vs spell magic and pg 3 gives someone with PE 16 +1 to save vs magic.

If we assume a non-cumulative default, since we lack instructions to stack these 2 sources of savings throw bonuses, then a 3rd level wizard with PE 16 will only have +1 to save vs spell magic. If we assume a cumulative default, he will have +2 vs spell magic.

I don't think NPCs reflect the former approach.

[kiralon]

No, nothing that shows what is and isn't cumulative. From memory it had to be cleared up that the bonuses from the wp skills were the total at that level and not be added together.
In fact in the combat page dealing with bonuses parry for example it only mentions adding the wp bonus.
(In fact if you have a problem, check what d&d first and second ed say and that's usually your answer)

But mostly its the fact that you would end up with 60 attacks per round plus and +60 to parry etc that tells me that hth styles aren't cumulative or shouldn't be.
Just for this reason I wouldn't allow it as a DM.

[Axelmania]

Natural 20s kinda reduce how broken bonuses can get.

[eliakon]

Natural 20s kinda reduce how broken bonuses can get.

Was that rule part of 1e canon?

[kiralon]

Natural 20s kinda reduce how broken bonuses can get.

But to add them cumulatively would be the only way to get there, first ed doesn't have as much broken stuff and less books for it is some of the reason (Getting converted to something that is akin to rifts is mostly the reason second ed is) but undead hunters (effectively palladin spellcasters who can have psionics)are pretty much the toughest thing to play in first ed and they stop at 7 attacks from memory. 50 attacks more than anyone else tells me not likely the way it's supposed to be, and nat 20's doesn't equalise that.

[Axelmania]

Natural 20s kinda reduce how broken bonuses can get.

Was that rule part of 1e canon?

Very good question!
... I can't seem to find it, so maybe not!
When HTH skills gain critical hits on natural rolls it always started on a 19+ so I guess I always assumed there was a 20 default or else you'd expect them to start off by gaining it at 20, then 19-20, then 18-20, etc...

But my progressive assumption is wrong anyway, as I've seen a lot of HTHs skip intermediaries and suddenly pull a +2 all at once.

50 attacks more than anyone else tells me not likely the way it's supposed to be

Or Kev understood the value of cross-training because he had a secret UFC fixation even though it was Gene Labelle and not the Gracies or Bruce Lee who deserve credit for inventing MMA.

[kiralon]

Palladins go from no crit to 17+ crit at level 6.

Gladiators HTH has a blurb saying hth bonuses aren't cumulative, but it's talking about the tables like the blurb for wp's does, but as its not worded well could also mean hth bonuses don't stack and you go off the highest bonus number.

[eliakon]

Or you know... we can simply look at the various multi class NPCs and see how their H2H skills and bonuses are calculated.
That will tell us pretty clearly what the intent is

[kiralon]

Or you know... we can simply look at the various multi class NPCs and see how their H2H skills and bonuses are calculated.
That will tell us pretty clearly what the intent is

Just like the rules give us clarity and intent (^_^)

[Father Goose]

Or you know... we can simply look at the various multi class NPCs and see how their H2H skills and bonuses are calculated.
That will tell us pretty clearly what the intent is

Just like the rules give us clarity and intent (^_^)

Clarity? Intent? What are these strange new words and how do they relate to our beloved Palladium?

[eliakon]

Or you know... we can simply look at the various multi class NPCs and see how their H2H skills and bonuses are calculated.
That will tell us pretty clearly what the intent is

Just like the rules give us clarity and intent (^_^)

In this case... they do.
I get that some people like to rag on Palladium and mock it because it doesn't always have crystal clear rules.
But it is a perfectly playable game as the people who have played it for a quarter century will attest.
And a lot of its rules are quite clear.
In this case we can pretty clearly find out what the rule is simply by reading the book, reading how multi-classing works, and then when presented with a fantastical claim about an alternate, highly abusive interpretation of how this should be done instead... we simply go to the examples in the book to see if they follow either the published rules or the fantastical abuse.
When we look at the published NPCs we see that they follow the rules in High Seas and do not follow Axles abuse theory.

Pretty clear.

[kiralon]

The NPC's don't seem to be rolled up, and so aren't a good case for the normal side of things. NPC's often have extra attacks or attack bonuses and abilities, Elven NPC's for example, how many have a PB below 18. In the quick look I had I couldn't find any, but I know I have rolled plenty of ugly elves. (Below 16 PB). The game has a lot of copy pasting done and It really doesn't seem like the makers of the game ever played high level characters. Yes it is playable but palladium is the most home ruled game I have ever played and has a lot more mistakes then most, with the system owners not putting out any helpful errata (Cutting room is gone). For example, rolling a dice to see how a rule turns out isn't fun and itself can cause grief, and the rules have caused more arguments then any other system I have played (But this is usually because the players are much more attached to their characters than in other systems).

But once house rules have been done it is one of the best systems to play as it has a great backstory.

How hard would it be to do an errata page on the forums?

[Axelmania]

Or you know... we can simply look at the various multi class NPCs and see how their H2H skills and bonuses are calculated.
That will tell us pretty clearly what the intent is

Which NPCs from 1st ed with 2 HTH skills do you want to look at?

In this case we can pretty clearly find out what the rule is simply by reading the book, reading how multi-classing works, and then when presented with a fantastical claim about an alternate, highly abusive interpretation of how this should be done instead... we simply go to the examples in the book to see if they follow either the published rules or the fantastical abuse.
When we look at the published NPCs we see that they follow the rules in High Seas and do not follow Axles abuse theory.

Pretty clear.

Just to clarify... it sounds like you are talking about the 2nd edition of Adventures on the High Seas which had optional multi-class rules that operate different from the errata for the PF2 main book.

Were these rules even in the 1st edition of WB3? This is a 1st ed discussion.