Hunter/Vigilante revisited

[zerombr]

this is my white whale. I've yet to find a way to really make this power category interesting. The idea of 'big game hunter' is just so weird and niche as it stands. So the Hunter needs to be revisited, reimagined.

the Hunter is a manhunter, he's a tracker, a trapper, he knows the human terrain as it were. He predicts patterns and movement, and has his own sort of psychology at work.

He studies his prey, he knows his weak spots (like the Sleuth but more so)

He's got to be more than just 'disguise scent' and a bit of sharpshooting.

What more do you see about this sort of character? What have you done with yours?

[csyphrett]

I have never had a hunter in any of the games I have run. The players that I have dealt with prefer powers to someone shooting a guy. Even Kraven the Hunter is dismissed as someone not good enough to polish Doc Ock's boots.

If I were going to run this type of character, I would run him like either like the Allan Quatermaine type who has lived in the wilderness and knows how things work.

or the Punisher.
CES

[Incriptus]

I guess the biggest problem is that the character as written seems to downplay his abilities.

1: Disguise Scent ... The biggest problem with this ability is that it is listed as number 1! It is such a niche ability as to seem irrelevant.

I think the best move would be to upgrade this to being part of "Disguise Presence". Like the deer hunter who knows how to disguise his scent the Hunter/Vigilante knows his prey has a variety of senses. The Hunter/Vigilante through learned techniques and other tools knows how to camouflage his presence and/or disrupt his prey's senses. We then give him a skill percentage. We then attach a table with modifiers.

Camouflage Presence: 70% +2 per level
Disguise Scent: -0
Remove Scent: -40%
Avoid Thermographics: -20% (watch predator)
Stationary Silence: -X% (The character can control is breathing and heart rate)
Disrupt Radar/Sonar: -X%
Hide Lifeforce: -70%

Then you give the character the options to specialize in such things; so you can give the character something to really look forward to.

2: Trap/Snare Animals ... Then they start by giving you a penalty for trapping people.

We replace this with "Trap Making". The first thing you do is instead of saying -10 for Large Animals (Including Humans) is you say +10 for Small Animals. Next you make a list of traps that the character can make. This is likely to be the biggest chuck of text for such a character. I would make a few of the more common ones, that he could make in the wilderness with nothing more than a knife and his wits, then perhaps guidelines for more advanced stuff.

3: Modify Weapon Cartridges
4: Quick Draw
5: W.P. Sharp Shooter

I'm grouping these all together because their problem is their basically described as "be a worse version of a weapon hardware".

For this I say just go all in, Don't limit him to just Pistols or Rifles. Give him Pistols & Rifles & Bows! This wouldn't water down the Weapons Hardware at all since they still have the more exotic stuff.

---

After addressing the existing abilities, I would then address what is missing from the class

1: I would like to see perhaps more detail being given to "hunting" people. Most likely doing for the "Track" skill the same thing they did for the "Escape Artist" skill of the Stage Magician and the "Computer Hacking" Skill of the Sleuth. Penalties based on difficulty, time requirements based on terrain/number of targets, ect.

2: I would like to see a more indepth look at Wilderness Survival. However in the case of this type of character it would be a special ability called "Survivalist". Stuff like Hunting in the Wilderness, Maintaining Water in the Desert, Not freezing in the snow ... and even how to get food and shelter when living on the streets of a big city

3: Physical Program. The character doesn't need to match the physical training category, but only getting secondary physical skills doesn't seem very nice for such a character (Unashamedly complaining about not getting boxing). May also be tied in with the Survivalist abilities.

------

Ultimately while the 1920's pulp "Big Game Hunter" would still be valid with the updated class
I'm thinking the character should be more of the 1980's action hero

I.E. any Arnold character

[Jack Burton]

Let's not forget the hunter being able to track those digital footprints. I don't care who you are, everyone leaves footprints... and I don't mean the kind in the dirt. Like the sleuth, this character can use the web to find a person. Land ownership records, social media, wifi networks, utility records, phone records, DMV records, marriage records, secretary of state corporate records, business licenses, professional licenses, building permits, court records (arrests, lawsuits, divorces, evictions, etc), newspaper/media reports, genealogy websites, voter registration, library cards, credit reports, gym memberships, grocery store rewards cards, big-box store memberships, streaming media accounts, police reports, internet accounts (Apple, ebay, Google, PayPal, Amazon, etc.), hunting/fishing licenses, pilot or drone licenses with the FAA, HAM Radio licenses, and my personal favorite.... Restaurant delivery accounts. I once found a robbery suspect by calling my contact at a large restaurant chain that delivers. I can't remember how we got it, but we had the guy's cell number to the burner phone he used at one point, but had already got rid of, so we couldn't ping it in real time to find him. Guess what? He ordered food once using that number and had it delivered to his house that he still lived at. BAM!

These are just some of the digital "scents" he can lock onto to in order to stalk and ultimately capture his prey. Some are restricted, so he'd have to use trickery or hack into a database or two. But many of them are public info, believe it or not. Some states are very liberal with what they consider public info, too! Also, there's no substitute for good old fashioned surveillance to establish patterns and collect intelligence. Trash runs (picking up one's garbage on the curb before it's picked up by the garbage man) can yield great info about a person! Talking to neighbors or known associates or acquaintances under the guise of a ruse can also work wonders. Depending on the character's alignment, bribery and coercion can also be used to collect info. on the target.

I envision this OCC as the pinacle of patience. Hunting takes physical cunning, but it's also the supreme mental exercise of hunter vs. prey (high M.E. needed or at least is useful, I would think). While the sleuth looks for clues to bring the villian to justice, the hunter/vigilante simply looks for the villian and doles out his own version of justice.

All the while, he leaves very little footprint of his own. Having to worry about you yourself being a target when you're on the hunt makes for a distracted hunter. Better to tread lightly (or tread smartly) to minimize the chances of being caught yourself. That means always employing counter surveillance to make sure nobody follows you by doing tail checks or as I like to call them, Crazy Ivans. Also exercising counter intelligence measures such as obtaining fake IDs under aliases, renting home or apartment under those alias, registering cars under dummy trust or corporation, using mail drops, burner phones, changing appearance, limiting personal relationships (yeah, pretty lonely OCC...), changing physical travel and time patterns, paying in cash, and NOT, I repeat NOT, having food delivered to your house! Hahahaha. Just my 2 cents...

[zerombr]

oh these are some very good ideas. My initial thought was ,yes, to make the character more of a pulp-y, Doc Savage, Quartermaine, Indiana Jones, style character. I'm liking your thoughts! Thank you. Lets see where this goes.

[Incriptus]

How I imagine a player ends up at the Hunter-Vigilante

Player: I want to play someone without powers, just a normal badass capable of mixing it up with superbeings
GM: Lets see Bionics?
Player: Probably not, I'm really looking for someone who is more normal than that
GM: Hardware
Player: I don't want to be an engineer per say [although a Weapons Expert with a Military Specialist Background may work]
GM: Physical Training?
Player: Maybe ... but I do like guns
GM: Then Ancient Master is out
Player: Yeah
GM: Hunter Vigilante
Player: Not bad, kinda looks like a Weapons Expert with Military Skills [Although Disguise Scent is a really lame special ability]
GM: Secret Operative
Player: Naw, too high tech, and I don't really want to deal with that organization stuff, more independent than that
GM: Stage Magician
Player: Not seeing it
GM: Super Slueth
Player: I like the investigator aspects, but I do want to be more in the thick of it
GM: Alright, so it looks like you narrowed it down to Weapons Expert and Hunter-Vigilante, however I must warn you I do require a roll on the education table, you can't just choose PHD or Military Specialist.
Player: I guess I'll play the Hunter/Vigilante, but with more of an emphasis on the Vigilante.
GM: Well the first sentence does say started his career as a professional hunter, Wilderness Scout, or Military. We can basically use the same skill set making your character an ex-ranger, or forest recon, or seal.
Player: Sounds good

[zerombr]

you're not wrong. Which is why this is something that desperately needs revisited, its just such a niche thing, that I don't have a ton of inspiration that can't be attributed to a secret operative or a weapons expert.

[Jack Burton]

you're not wrong. Which is why this is something that desperately needs revisited, its just such a niche thing, that I don't have a ton of inspiration that can't be attributed to a secret operative or a weapons expert.

There's always Dog The Bounty Hunter!

[eliakon]

How I imagine a player ends up at the Hunter-Vigilante

Player: I want to play someone without powers, just a normal badass capable of mixing it up with superbeings
GM: Lets see Bionics?
Player: Probably not, I'm really looking for someone who is more normal than that
GM: Hardware
Player: I don't want to be an engineer per say [although a Weapons Expert with a Military Specialist Background may work]
GM: Physical Training?
Player: Maybe ... but I do like guns
GM: Then Ancient Master is out
Player: Yeah
GM: Hunter Vigilante
Player: Not bad, kinda looks like a Weapons Expert with Military Skills [Although Disguise Scent is a really lame special ability]
GM: Secret Operative
Player: Naw, too high tech, and I don't really want to deal with that organization stuff, more independent than that
GM: Stage Magician
Player: Not seeing it
GM: Super Slueth
Player: I like the investigator aspects, but I do want to be more in the thick of it
GM: Alright, so it looks like you narrowed it down to Weapons Expert and Hunter-Vigilante, however I must warn you I do require a roll on the education table, you can't just choose PHD or Military Specialist.
Player: I guess I'll play the Hunter/Vigilante, but with more of an emphasis on the Vigilante.
GM: Well the first sentence does say started his career as a professional hunter, Wilderness Scout, or Military. We can basically use the same skill set making your character an ex-ranger, or forest recon, or seal.
Player: Sounds good

you're not wrong. Which is why this is something that desperately needs revisited, its just such a niche thing, that I don't have a ton of inspiration that can't be attributed to a secret operative or a weapons expert.

Okay. I am starting to see something here.
So what we need is to start with the way you rebuilt the other stuff.

Okay, so a military ranger type is going to be built differently than the 'great white hunter' who is going to be different than the 'urban predator' who is going to be different than...

Next. I look over at some of the other game lines for some skills.
Rifts Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill. We can snag that up. Its a synergy skill that adds to some other skills and aimed shots.
Next stop is Splicers where we want the Vital Strikes skill
Next I am dropping by Ninjas and Superspies long enough to raid the professional Assassin and Body guard skill program precedent of "skill programs can modify skills"
Rifter 24 has the Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 30 offers the Advanced Prowl Skills


something like this starts to take shape
Professional Stalking program
Stalk/Capture +15
Stalking +15
Sniper +3 bonus
W.P. Rifle
Vital Strikes
Prowl
Advanced Prowl: one of choice

using almost nothing but canon material from other games and one non-canon skill that is thematically appropriate to the class we get something that looks very 'hunter of the most dangerous game'

[dreicunan]

How I imagine a player ends up at the Hunter-Vigilante

Player: I want to play someone without powers, just a normal badass capable of mixing it up with superbeings
GM: Lets see Bionics?
Player: Probably not, I'm really looking for someone who is more normal than that
GM: Hardware
Player: I don't want to be an engineer per say [although a Weapons Expert with a Military Specialist Background may work]
GM: Physical Training?
Player: Maybe ... but I do like guns
GM: Then Ancient Master is out
Player: Yeah
GM: Hunter Vigilante
Player: Not bad, kinda looks like a Weapons Expert with Military Skills [Although Disguise Scent is a really lame special ability]
GM: Secret Operative
Player: Naw, too high tech, and I don't really want to deal with that organization stuff, more independent than that
GM: Stage Magician
Player: Not seeing it
GM: Super Slueth
Player: I like the investigator aspects, but I do want to be more in the thick of it
GM: Alright, so it looks like you narrowed it down to Weapons Expert and Hunter-Vigilante, however I must warn you I do require a roll on the education table, you can't just choose PHD or Military Specialist.
Player: I guess I'll play the Hunter/Vigilante, but with more of an emphasis on the Vigilante.
GM: Well the first sentence does say started his career as a professional hunter, Wilderness Scout, or Military. We can basically use the same skill set making your character an ex-ranger, or forest recon, or seal.
Player: Sounds good

you're not wrong. Which is why this is something that desperately needs revisited, its just such a niche thing, that I don't have a ton of inspiration that can't be attributed to a secret operative or a weapons expert.

Okay. I am starting to see something here.
So what we need is to start with the way you rebuilt the other stuff.

Okay, so a military ranger type is going to be built differently than the 'great white hunter' who is going to be different than the 'urban predator' who is going to be different than...

Next. I look over at some of the other game lines for some skills.
Rifts Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill. We can snag that up. Its a synergy skill that adds to some other skills and aimed shots.
Next stop is Splicers where we want the Vital Strikes skill
Next I am dropping by Ninjas and Superspies long enough to raid the professional Assassin and Body guard skill program precedent of "skill programs can modify skills"
Rifter 24 has the Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 30 offers the Advanced Prowl Skills


something like this starts to take shape
Professional Stalking program
Stalk/Capture +15
Stalking +15
Sniper +3 bonus
W.P. Rifle
Vital Strikes
Prowl
Advanced Prowl: one of choice

using almost nothing but canon material from other games and one non-canon skill that is thematically appropriate to the class we get something that looks very 'hunter of the most dangerous game'

The stalking skill from Dinosaur Swamp doesn't have a percentage to roll against. Did you mean to increase all of its percentage bonuses by 15%?

Also, I'd just give them both advanced prowl options (stealth and hiding). I like the overall idea.

[eliakon]

How I imagine a player ends up at the Hunter-Vigilante

Player: I want to play someone without powers, just a normal badass capable of mixing it up with superbeings
GM: Lets see Bionics?
Player: Probably not, I'm really looking for someone who is more normal than that
GM: Hardware
Player: I don't want to be an engineer per say [although a Weapons Expert with a Military Specialist Background may work]
GM: Physical Training?
Player: Maybe ... but I do like guns
GM: Then Ancient Master is out
Player: Yeah
GM: Hunter Vigilante
Player: Not bad, kinda looks like a Weapons Expert with Military Skills [Although Disguise Scent is a really lame special ability]
GM: Secret Operative
Player: Naw, too high tech, and I don't really want to deal with that organization stuff, more independent than that
GM: Stage Magician
Player: Not seeing it
GM: Super Slueth
Player: I like the investigator aspects, but I do want to be more in the thick of it
GM: Alright, so it looks like you narrowed it down to Weapons Expert and Hunter-Vigilante, however I must warn you I do require a roll on the education table, you can't just choose PHD or Military Specialist.
Player: I guess I'll play the Hunter/Vigilante, but with more of an emphasis on the Vigilante.
GM: Well the first sentence does say started his career as a professional hunter, Wilderness Scout, or Military. We can basically use the same skill set making your character an ex-ranger, or forest recon, or seal.
Player: Sounds good

you're not wrong. Which is why this is something that desperately needs revisited, its just such a niche thing, that I don't have a ton of inspiration that can't be attributed to a secret operative or a weapons expert.

Okay. I am starting to see something here.
So what we need is to start with the way you rebuilt the other stuff.

Okay, so a military ranger type is going to be built differently than the 'great white hunter' who is going to be different than the 'urban predator' who is going to be different than...

Next. I look over at some of the other game lines for some skills.
Rifts Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill. We can snag that up. Its a synergy skill that adds to some other skills and aimed shots.
Next stop is Splicers where we want the Vital Strikes skill
Next I am dropping by Ninjas and Superspies long enough to raid the professional Assassin and Body guard skill program precedent of "skill programs can modify skills"
Rifter 24 has the Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 30 offers the Advanced Prowl Skills


something like this starts to take shape
Professional Stalking program
Stalk/Capture +15
Stalking +15
Sniper +3 bonus
W.P. Rifle
Vital Strikes
Prowl
Advanced Prowl: one of choice

using almost nothing but canon material from other games and one non-canon skill that is thematically appropriate to the class we get something that looks very 'hunter of the most dangerous game'

The stalking skill from Dinosaur Swamp doesn't have a percentage to roll against. Did you mean to increase all of its percentage bonuses by 15%?

Also, I'd just give them both advanced prowl options (stealth and hiding). I like the overall idea.

I would let them have hiding + one stealth of choice with the option to buy the other with a skill.
I didn't have my book handy so I couldn't recall the exact stalking rules, my bad there

[zerombr]

hmmm well might have to look into Dinosaur Swamp first. TY

[dreicunan]

Also, I'd just give them both advanced prowl options (stealth and hiding). I like the overall idea.

I would let them have hiding + one stealth of choice with the option to buy the other with a skill.
I didn't have my book handy so I couldn't recall the exact stalking rules, my bad there

If you already have stealth and hiding, would there be a reason to get the wilderness one (besides the PP boost)? I thought the wilderness ones gave you the benefits of hide and stealth but only for the region, but I may be misremembering (and now I don't have my books handy).

[Incriptus]

Dinosaur Swamp is an excellent source for inspiration for the Wilderness Scout version of the character.

Another random thought is to give the Hunter "Specialties". You can still have the "Big Game Hunter" specialty (origin) beside the "Man Hunter" specialty beside the "Cape-Buster" specialty. If you are feeling particularly ambitious, or think that your Anti-Super Specialty is getting a little to powerful, remember ... Latent Psychic and Master Psychic are in the same power category. There is no shame in having one option being explicitly more powerful than another.

[zerombr]

hmm I like this cape killer idea. I don't just want to do +damage to them, but if I could find a way that helped IDK make using their powers more difficult?

[Regularguy]

hmm I like this cape killer idea. I don't just want to do +damage to them, but if I could find a way that helped IDK make using their powers more difficult?

Off the top of my head, how about the Negate Super Abilities power, but only for prey that’s been researched?

So maybe a Hunter/Vigilante needs X amount of time spent studying and scrounging to declare a target designated, and is capped at having one ‘researched prey’ per level — and, if the prey is an animal type, then figure it nullifies whatever powers that animal is, in effect, written up as having (as if he’s taken precautions to counter its keen sense of smell, or whatever; we don’t assume he’s automatically gotten a win with this ability, just that he’s brought it down to ‘human’ levels).

[dreicunan]

hmm I like this cape killer idea. I don't just want to do +damage to them, but if I could find a way that helped IDK make using their powers more difficult?

Off the top of my head, how about the Negate Super Abilities power, but only for prey that’s been researched?

So maybe a Hunter/Vigilante needs X amount of time spent studying and scrounging to declare a target designated, and is capped at having one ‘researched prey’ per level — and, if the prey is an animal type, then figure it nullifies whatever powers that animal is, in effect, written up as having (as if he’s taken precautions to counter its keen sense of smell, or whatever; we don’t assume he’s automatically gotten a win with this ability, just that he’s brought it down to ‘human’ levels).

What would the logical justification for that be? How does researching Mr. Invulnerable allow someone to figure out how to make a normal knife damage him?

Rather than making the use of powers more difficult, it might make more sense for the cape killer to be able to use research to figure out how to be harder to affect with the powers. So instead of stopping you from being able to move at sonic speeds, the Cape Killer's research has revealed combat tendencies that make it easier to dodge his high speed attacks and to score a hit on him (for example, by halving the bonuses to strike, parry and dodge from the power for the super against the Cape Killer), or that there is always a flash of light in your eyes right before lasers fire from them (giving the cape killer a bonus to dodge the attack, perhaps even giving him an autododge against attacks using that power). By talking to victims of Megabrain's Control Others power, he's managed to piece together mental tricks that make it much easier to resist his influence (big bonus to saving throw).

Rather than make a comprehensive list for every power in the game, it might make more sense to just give the GMs examples and guidelines. Perhaps also include a generic +1 to strike, parry, and dodge against a researched target due to learning about their combat tendencies...perhaps make the strike bonus a natural bonus to help give a bit of an edge against a researched opponent.

[Incriptus]

I too dislike the idea of a raw bonus to damage

I wouldn't want to go pure "Negate Super Abilities"

Some of my thoughts are
Bonus to your Tracking/Stalking skill
Lowering the Target's AR [For Verisimilitude I don't want him to be able to shoot an invulnerable person, but he may be skilled in targeting APS metal's weak(ish) spots)
Negating Bonuses to Strike/Parry/Dodge (ect)

I usually prefer giving the character bonuses over penalties, because for penalties you have to back track [How much of his bonus to strike is from superpowers, and how much is from attributes/skills, wait aren't his attributes increased by his powers ... ect]

[zerombr]

i too think NSA is too much and impossible to justify. I think also that affecting invulerable targets, no matter how well researched, is impossible.

I was actually thinking about the palladium fantasy capture skill, where each hit drops your opponent's bonuses by 1, except maybe for firearms or something.

Its bound to be a delicate point, and it needs justification, but I think this might be doable.

[eliakon]

i too think NSA is too much and impossible to justify. I think also that affecting invulerable targets, no matter how well researched, is impossible.

I was actually thinking about the palladium fantasy capture skill, where each hit drops your opponent's bonuses by 1, except maybe for firearms or something.

Its bound to be a delicate point, and it needs justification, but I think this might be doable.

That is the Rifter 24 Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 24 has the official conversion of Yin Sloth Jungles which is why I used it.

I would suggest that using specialized tools is the way to go.
W.P. Bola, W.P. Net, Use & Recognize Poisons
A shotgun shell loaded with teargas is going to slow down a super.
a W.P. Dartgun for tranquilizer darts might be handy

[zerombr]

That is the Rifter 24 Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 24 has the official conversion of Yin Sloth Jungles which is why I used it.

I would suggest that using specialized tools is the way to go.
W.P. Bola, W.P. Net, Use & Recognize Poisons
A shotgun shell loaded with teargas is going to slow down a super.
a W.P. Dartgun for tranquilizer darts might be handy

ah I forgot the officially converted. Thank you for the reminder.

I def see some good use of Use Poison, as well as actual traps.

As for the items, hmmm, well yes the proper weapon is critical for most jobs, but I'm thinking about innate things too, abilities like what I did with the other special training cats. Heck, I still want to use a paintball gun filled with capsican, as a weapon!

[Regularguy]

What would the logical justification for that be? How does researching Mr. Invulnerable allow someone to figure out how to make a normal knife damage him?

I sure don’t want to run afoul of the rules against conversions. But: you’ve read comic books, right?

[eliakon]

That is the Rifter 24 Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 24 has the official conversion of Yin Sloth Jungles which is why I used it.

I would suggest that using specialized tools is the way to go.
W.P. Bola, W.P. Net, Use & Recognize Poisons
A shotgun shell loaded with teargas is going to slow down a super.
a W.P. Dartgun for tranquilizer darts might be handy

ah I forgot the officially converted. Thank you for the reminder.

I def see some good use of Use Poison, as well as actual traps.

As for the items, hmmm, well yes the proper weapon is critical for most jobs, but I'm thinking about innate things too, abilities like what I did with the other special training cats. Heck, I still want to use a paintball gun filled with capsican, as a weapon!

So what about go middle of the road.
All those weaknesses and vulnerabilities out there that people take confidant that no one will ever actually use them against them?

Special Skill
Master of the prey
By researching their target/prey they are able to learn what does, or does not work against them and what to use or not use. This skill allows for them to carefully tailor loads to use this research. Things like bone bullets, shot shells filled with silver dust, and paintballs filled with noxious chemicals are some of the possibilities.
Some of the other possible uses of this skill will allow the hunter to use the special skills of hand to hand combat via aimed, called shots. For example by studying a target to learn where their weaknesses are, the hunter may learn where to shoot them and on a successful research cycle, followed by a successful roll may now make their hand to hand "deathblow on a 19".
When used on a target with no specific vulnerabilities it allows for tailoring a load to them, specifically. Such effects can include one of the following effects. Making a bullet that will bypass 2 points of AR. Make a bullet that is a +1 strike. Make a bullet that will raise their critical threshold by 1, etc.
I am not good at skill balance, so I will let those better at it than I work out the skill value.

[zerombr]

yeah it'll probably be closer to that than anything, with some choices as to what you focus on and the like. I think subdual damage and such should be a possibility for this character as well.

[Jack Burton]

That is the Rifter 24 Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 24 has the official conversion of Yin Sloth Jungles which is why I used it.

I would suggest that using specialized tools is the way to go.
W.P. Bola, W.P. Net, Use & Recognize Poisons
A shotgun shell loaded with teargas is going to slow down a super.
a W.P. Dartgun for tranquilizer darts might be handy

ah I forgot the officially converted. Thank you for the reminder.

I def see some good use of Use Poison, as well as actual traps.

As for the items, hmmm, well yes the proper weapon is critical for most jobs, but I'm thinking about innate things too, abilities like what I did with the other special training cats. Heck, I still want to use a paintball gun filled with capsican, as a weapon!

So what about go middle of the road.
All those weaknesses and vulnerabilities out there that people take confidant that no one will ever actually use them against them?

Special Skill
Master of the prey
By researching their target/prey they are able to learn what does, or does not work against them and what to use or not use. This skill allows for them to carefully tailor loads to use this research. Things like bone bullets, shot shells filled with silver dust, and paintballs filled with noxious chemicals are some of the possibilities.
Some of the other possible uses of this skill will allow the hunter to use the special skills of hand to hand combat via aimed, called shots. For example by studying a target to learn where their weaknesses are, the hunter may learn where to shoot them and on a successful research cycle, followed by a successful roll may now make their hand to hand "deathblow on a 19".
When used on a target with no specific vulnerabilities it allows for tailoring a load to them, specifically. Such effects can include one of the following effects. Making a bullet that will bypass 2 points of AR. Make a bullet that is a +1 strike. Make a bullet that will raise their critical threshold by 1, etc.
I am not good at skill balance, so I will let those better at it than I work out the skill value.

I know your intent, but honestly, a lot of these sound more like weapons expert skills.

[eliakon]

That is the Rifter 24 Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 24 has the official conversion of Yin Sloth Jungles which is why I used it.

I would suggest that using specialized tools is the way to go.
W.P. Bola, W.P. Net, Use & Recognize Poisons
A shotgun shell loaded with teargas is going to slow down a super.
a W.P. Dartgun for tranquilizer darts might be handy

ah I forgot the officially converted. Thank you for the reminder.

I def see some good use of Use Poison, as well as actual traps.

As for the items, hmmm, well yes the proper weapon is critical for most jobs, but I'm thinking about innate things too, abilities like what I did with the other special training cats. Heck, I still want to use a paintball gun filled with capsican, as a weapon!

So what about go middle of the road.
All those weaknesses and vulnerabilities out there that people take confidant that no one will ever actually use them against them?

Special Skill
Master of the prey
By researching their target/prey they are able to learn what does, or does not work against them and what to use or not use. This skill allows for them to carefully tailor loads to use this research. Things like bone bullets, shot shells filled with silver dust, and paintballs filled with noxious chemicals are some of the possibilities.
Some of the other possible uses of this skill will allow the hunter to use the special skills of hand to hand combat via aimed, called shots. For example by studying a target to learn where their weaknesses are, the hunter may learn where to shoot them and on a successful research cycle, followed by a successful roll may now make their hand to hand "deathblow on a 19".
When used on a target with no specific vulnerabilities it allows for tailoring a load to them, specifically. Such effects can include one of the following effects. Making a bullet that will bypass 2 points of AR. Make a bullet that is a +1 strike. Make a bullet that will raise their critical threshold by 1, etc.
I am not good at skill balance, so I will let those better at it than I work out the skill value.

I know your intent, but honestly, a lot of these sound more like weapons expert skills.

To me?
A weapon expert makes a weapon that works regardless.
A hunter should be about modifying a bullet so that it works on one specific target based on its weakness.
I would laugh at a weapon expert that wanted to do this, because its not their thing. They shouldn't be researching targets analyzing them and figureing out how to make the exact special round that can take them down in the right hands.

But there is some minor overlap sure.
I mean they are both categories about people who use guns.
Just like you have superspies who are not hardware
Just like you have several kinds of heroes who have access to super powers
Just like you have several different kinds of super heroes who are martial artists
You can have more than one category that has some skills that do some of the same thing. There is no "each category must be totally and utterly unique and what ever they get to do is only allowed them and no other what so ever in any way shape or form."
If you don't want to let them use guns that's fine... take the category away though if you don't intend to allow it to be used though.

[Jack Burton]

That is the Rifter 24 Stalk/Capture skill
Rifter 24 has the official conversion of Yin Sloth Jungles which is why I used it.

I would suggest that using specialized tools is the way to go.
W.P. Bola, W.P. Net, Use & Recognize Poisons
A shotgun shell loaded with teargas is going to slow down a super.
a W.P. Dartgun for tranquilizer darts might be handy

ah I forgot the officially converted. Thank you for the reminder.

I def see some good use of Use Poison, as well as actual traps.

As for the items, hmmm, well yes the proper weapon is critical for most jobs, but I'm thinking about innate things too, abilities like what I did with the other special training cats. Heck, I still want to use a paintball gun filled with capsican, as a weapon!

So what about go middle of the road.
All those weaknesses and vulnerabilities out there that people take confidant that no one will ever actually use them against them?

Special Skill
Master of the prey
By researching their target/prey they are able to learn what does, or does not work against them and what to use or not use. This skill allows for them to carefully tailor loads to use this research. Things like bone bullets, shot shells filled with silver dust, and paintballs filled with noxious chemicals are some of the possibilities.
Some of the other possible uses of this skill will allow the hunter to use the special skills of hand to hand combat via aimed, called shots. For example by studying a target to learn where their weaknesses are, the hunter may learn where to shoot them and on a successful research cycle, followed by a successful roll may now make their hand to hand "deathblow on a 19".
When used on a target with no specific vulnerabilities it allows for tailoring a load to them, specifically. Such effects can include one of the following effects. Making a bullet that will bypass 2 points of AR. Make a bullet that is a +1 strike. Make a bullet that will raise their critical threshold by 1, etc.
I am not good at skill balance, so I will let those better at it than I work out the skill value.

I know your intent, but honestly, a lot of these sound more like weapons expert skills.

To me?
A weapon expert makes a weapon that works regardless.
A hunter should be about modifying a bullet so that it works on one specific target based on its weakness.
I would laugh at a weapon expert that wanted to do this, because its not their thing. They shouldn't be researching targets analyzing them and figureing out how to make the exact special round that can take them down in the right hands.

But there is some minor overlap sure.
I mean they are both categories about people who use guns.
Just like you have superspies who are not hardware
Just like you have several kinds of heroes who have access to super powers
Just like you have several different kinds of super heroes who are martial artists
You can have more than one category that has some skills that do some of the same thing. There is no "each category must be totally and utterly unique and what ever they get to do is only allowed them and no other what so ever in any way shape or form."
If you don't want to let them use guns that's fine... take the category away though if you don't intend to allow it to be used though.

For sure there is overlap, no matter which way you slice it. But to say a weapons expert doesn't modify bullets, I disagree. That's totally their thing. He may not necessarily modify them to exploit a weakness. I agree with you that is completely the Hunter's thing. I will say that even the examples I gave about researching his prey could be more geared toward the Sleuth or an investigator of some sort. This is a hard one, for sure. The good news is that zerombr is precisely the right guy to sift through all the suggestions and canon material and come up with a well rounded mixture that will make the Hunter/Vigilante its own unique character and not just a hodge podge of skills and bonuses. I'm eagerly awaiting his final take on this OCC!

[eliakon]

For sure there is overlap, no matter which way you slice it. But to say a weapons expert doesn't modify bullets, I disagree. That's totally their thing. He may not necessarily modify them to exploit a weakness. I agree with you that is completely the Hunter's thing. I will say that even the examples I gave about researching his prey could be more geared toward the Sleuth or an investigator of some sort. This is a hard one, for sure. The good news is that zerombr is precisely the right guy to sift through all the suggestions and canon material and come up with a well rounded mixture that will make the Hunter/Vigilante its own unique character and not just a hodge podge of skills and bonuses. I'm eagerly awaiting his final take on this OCC!

Definately
We can do all the easy/fun part like brainstorming up stuff and then let hem do the sifting and flavorizing.
Win win all around
(we love you Zerombr, we really do.)

[dreicunan]

What would the logical justification for that be? How does researching Mr. Invulnerable allow someone to figure out how to make a normal knife damage him?

I sure don’t want to run afoul of the rules against conversions. But: you’ve read comic books, right?

Sure. That doesn't explain how research allows a non-superpowered person to prevent your Invulnerability from working against a normal knife (or bullet or other weapon)! It isn't justifiable in the internal logic of the game world as ability for this type of character.

[Jack Burton]

What would the logical justification for that be? How does researching Mr. Invulnerable allow someone to figure out how to make a normal knife damage him?

I sure don’t want to run afoul of the rules against conversions. But: you’ve read comic books, right?

Sure. That doesn't explain how research allows a non-superpowered person to prevent your Invulnerability from working against a normal knife (or bullet or other weapon)! It isn't justifiable in the internal logic of the game world as ability for this type of character.

I would guess that the character wouldn't research how to make a normal knife defeat one's invulnerability. The key word there is normal. He would figure out another way. I'm envisioning Lex Luthor figuring out that a knife forged of Kryptonite would damage Superman. That's a trait of a hunter and I think that's where the resesrch comes in. You can't resesrch your way into making the normal knife hurt Superman, but the research sure can help you discover Superman's weakness to Kryptonite and then weaponize it. Research may also help you discover his family or friends which can be used against him. Coercion can be just as powerful as brute force.

[zerombr]

Definately
We can do all the easy/fun part like brainstorming up stuff and then let hem do the sifting and flavorizing.
Win win all around
(we love you Zerombr, we really do.)

You're too kind, but thank you. I'd honestly be thrilled to find out people are using my expanded rewrites. (and hopefully there are two more to come)

I would guess that the character wouldn't research how to make a normal knife defeat one's invulnerability. The key word there is normal. He would figure out another way. I'm envisioning Lex Luthor figuring out that a knife forged of Kryptonite would damage Superman. That's a trait of a hunter and I think that's where the resesrch comes in. You can't resesrch your way into making the normal knife hurt Superman, but the research sure can help you discover Superman's weakness to Kryptonite and then weaponize it. Research may also help you discover his family or friends which can be used against him. Coercion can be just as powerful as brute force.

I think research to find established weaknesses is fitting, yes. I think there are ways to lower an A.R. (Ancient Weapon Master Specialist has one, teflon bullets are another). And I know someone's going to tell me I'm wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that depleted uranium bullets are supposed to affect Invulnerability, but I can't tell you where. However, I don't want to just ignore powers, especially without a lot of dedication to it. Honestly, a lot of that is up to the GM. Can a character that regenerates have their regeneration paused if shot in the right spot or with the right thing? I think it's going to have to be about customizing weaponry that works specifically against certain things. Guy turns into fire or plasma? Time to modify a firearm that specifically helps against that purpose. Man vibrates so bullets go through? use a vibrating bullet, or a sonic device.

NOW. The problem with this is that there's far, far too many things out there that you can come across, and I can't just list page after page after page about what stops what. It'll always be a partial list because there's always more out there. SO, I think this needs to be done in a similar way to the Gadget system I made up for the superspy. Where you select a specific function you want, and establish bonuses, then creatively describe what the item is and how it does the thing. You and GM work together on the gadget to ensure it sounds legit and it follows the basic style properly.


I recognize that the weapons expert and the hunter have an overlap in skills too, in fact, I could see about just lumping the two together as facets of the same power category. you could have your more weapons focused hunter, your trap focused, a supernatural hunter, a cape killer. Now, in theory, the hunter's more focused on the stalk, of understanding human terrain, predicting movement, exploiting weakness. However, I submit that what weapons experts we see in comics, and by that I mean Punisher, that he's generally of that same mentality to find an opening and exploit. Sure he can mow down with a minigun too, but the prep time for it is generally a part of his style.

Good thoughts all, loving the help. I feel that its going to happen! Finally, the white whale

[Warshield73]

I have only had a few players attempt to play this character and all of them switched to another class within two sessions so I'm not sure what you can do to make it more interesting. The problem is that you can make a Hunter from almost any character class, but especially mutants or super soldiers, with the right power mix.

One suggestion that I would have is what you did for the Super Sleuth, the Origin Story. The ability to create a psychic, magic, or super powered Hunter might make it more interesting.

[zerombr]

okay I can look into that! Thank you for the feedback! I really appreciate it.

[dreicunan]

What would the logical justification for that be? How does researching Mr. Invulnerable allow someone to figure out how to make a normal knife damage him?

I sure don’t want to run afoul of the rules against conversions. But: you’ve read comic books, right?

Sure. That doesn't explain how research allows a non-superpowered person to prevent your Invulnerability from working against a normal knife (or bullet or other weapon)! It isn't justifiable in the internal logic of the game world as ability for this type of character.

I would guess that the character wouldn't research how to make a normal knife defeat one's invulnerability. The key word there is normal. He would figure out another way. I'm envisioning Lex Luthor figuring out that a knife forged of Kryptonite would damage Superman. That's a trait of a hunter and I think that's where the resesrch comes in. You can't resesrch your way into making the normal knife hurt Superman, but the research sure can help you discover Superman's weakness to Kryptonite and then weaponize it. Research may also help you discover his family or friends which can be used against him. Coercion can be just as powerful as brute force.

That is fine, but not a justification for negate super powers. Anyone who did their research could come up with that. My questions were specific to the suggestion of allowing research to justify negating super powers, which WOULD let a normal knife harm someone with invincibility.

[Jack Burton]

What would the logical justification for that be? How does researching Mr. Invulnerable allow someone to figure out how to make a normal knife damage him?

I sure don’t want to run afoul of the rules against conversions. But: you’ve read comic books, right?

Sure. That doesn't explain how research allows a non-superpowered person to prevent your Invulnerability from working against a normal knife (or bullet or other weapon)! It isn't justifiable in the internal logic of the game world as ability for this type of character.

I would guess that the character wouldn't research how to make a normal knife defeat one's invulnerability. The key word there is normal. He would figure out another way. I'm envisioning Lex Luthor figuring out that a knife forged of Kryptonite would damage Superman. That's a trait of a hunter and I think that's where the resesrch comes in. You can't resesrch your way into making the normal knife hurt Superman, but the research sure can help you discover Superman's weakness to Kryptonite and then weaponize it. Research may also help you discover his family or friends which can be used against him. Coercion can be just as powerful as brute force.

That is fine, but not a justification for negate super powers. Anyone who did their research could come up with that. My questions were specific to the suggestion of allowing research to justify negating super powers, which WOULD let a normal knife harm someone with invincibility.

Not sure if that's just splitting hairs, but there are many ways to skin a cat. I think the intent behind the Hunter/Vigilante is to play a character whose special ability is to find another's weakness and exploit it, which may not necessarily involve negating a superpower at all. That target might not even have superpowers, but if he does, the Hunter may or may not be negating the actual superpower itself. It may be learning the villian's identity and exposing it, or finding out a superbeing's powers are derived from an enchanted object, or exploiting a weakness in the criminal organization's leadership and turning the second in command against the kingpin. (just examples).

The more I think about this, the more I see this being a character that relies less on the mechanics of gameplay and more on the story and plot. Zerombr hit the nail on the head when he said that he's not going to be able to come up with a counter to every conceivable power. In order for an effective Hunter/Vigilante character to be played, I forsee a lot of GM involvement with the story. I guess that also means if your GM is a dud, this chsracter may also be a dud by no fault of the player.

[Fermat]

I like the idea on focusing on the differing aspects of the Hunter to allow personalization, similar to your other types:
Of the top of my head----

Ancient Weapons: Spear, blowgun, net, lasso, etc.
Firearms: Rifle/pistol tricks and buffs
Advanced Weapons: Lasers, drones, sonics
Trap making: snares, booby traps, etc.
Tracking: physically following their target
Tracing: hunting them through research and detective work
Supplies: Advanced metals, chains, poisons, etc.
Close Combat: Vital points, Holds, KO and such
Group Tactics: using minions/allies to isolate and guide targets
Physical Training: Small boosts to physical Stats
Stalking: Stealth enhancements

And a specific choice based on preferred prey:
Animals: Hide scent, resistance to poison, etc.
People: covering up the crime scene, group dynamics, intelligence, seduction
Robots/Bionics: some hacking/jamming, negating targeting bonuses
Psychics: small boost to resistance, Lore: Psionics, penalties to some abilities
Superbeings: similar to psychics
Magic: similar to psychics, maybe some crude hedge magic (but this seems to be on the Demon Hunter turf from ApocU)

Perhaps a single power that they have skill with countering for example:
You are used to hunting invisible beings so only suffer from -4 from fighting them, then -2 at level 2.
I would not let them completely counter, but bonuses to trapping the invulnerable, tracking the intangible, or grappling with the malleable could all be feasible.

Just my two cents,

[dreicunan]

Not sure if that's just splitting hairs, but there are many ways to skin a cat. I think the intent behind the Hunter/Vigilante is to play a character whose special ability is to find another's weakness and exploit it, which may not necessarily involve negating a superpower at all. That target might not even have superpowers, but if he does, the Hunter may or may not be negating the actual superpower itself. It may be learning the villian's identity and exposing it, or finding out a superbeing's powers are derived from an enchanted object, or exploiting a weakness in the criminal organization's leadership and turning the second in command against the kingpin. (just examples).

The more I think about this, the more I see this being a character that relies less on the mechanics of gameplay and more on the story and plot. Zerombr hit the nail on the head when he said that he's not going to be able to come up with a counter to every conceivable power. In order for an effective Hunter/Vigilante character to be played, I forsee a lot of GM involvement with the story. I guess that also means if your GM is a dud, this chsracter may also be a dud by no fault of the player.

I completely agree with you, actually, about how the class would function. As I said, my responses were about the suggestion to let them get Negate Super Powers against researched targets.

[Jack Burton]

I completely agree with you, actually, about how the class would function. As I said, my responses were about the suggestion to let them get Negate Super Powers against researched targets.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

[zerombr]

On the Hunt...with the Hunter Vigilante premise.

overall

Superskills: something involving all the wilderness survival skills, and animal skills. Another should involve surveillance, but it also needs to be different than the super spy, who uses Infiltration as a superskill that combines surveillance, tradecraft, and prowl.

Introduction to how traps work, and how you can create a myriad of traps with a few key phrases.

Possibly introduce subdual ideas, ie: less lethal weaponry.


so far my category ideas are

General and Advanced (as always, the catch all for abilities, you've seen some of these before)


Pulp Hero (your more well versed adventurer, with more of a focus on survival and trap reactions)

Capture and Trapper (Enhancing the basic trap system I'll put together, with subdual usage abilities that I've been meaning to write)

Manhunter (psychology and human terrain, mostly about creating your targets and analysis)

Weapons Expert (bonuses and abilities for weaponry, in a similar vein to the secret operative, sharpshooting'll go here)

Cape Killer (analysis for dealing with metahumans, mostly about adjusting weaponry to specific metahuman abilities to get better results. This one will be G.M. heavy and will have some explanation and caution there.)

Monster Slayer (Same as Cape Killer, but for magic, psionics, and supernatural stuff. Esoteric strike'll be here to allow Hunters to damage ghosts)


I added some equipment in the Sleuth article, not sure if I'll do the same here.

[zerombr]

how'd you guys feel about attacking attributes? That'd be an interesting way to have traps or certain attacks work. Granted, there'd need to be some explanation, but the idea is that you could have say...a bear trap, and the way it'd normally work is damage the leg, so it'd be standard damage and 2D4 SPD damage as well.

Granted some things'd be hard to damage, like P.S. But most everything else can be a save vs non-lethal poison away for hallucinogens (for M.A.), or other tranquilizers.

This might be a more interesting way for Hunters to operate optionally. Thoughts?

[RockJock]

Ok, I am not looking for a conversion, but what comic/media characters would you consider inspiration for a Hunter/Vigilante? Many characters come to mind when I think of the name Hunter Vigilante, but none of them seem very close to the class. I mean a guy who guards Hell's Kitchen, a Russian big game hunter, and a immortal with a gem in his chest all seem like Hunters and/or Vigilantes, but none are all that close to this class.


With enough money I can see a Hunter/Vigilante being able to counter most enemies with forethought and planning. The Kryponite knife isn't a cheap thing to find/make. In HU you have everything from glop grenades, tasers, knock out gas and so on that can be used against certain characters, but they would not be cheap or easy for the average joe to get their hands on.

[zerombr]

I generally try to pull from three or four different places to make different types of archetypes. Also, I feel it needs a rename, Hunter/Vigilante is a bit confusing, and we've had experience even in our group at first where we said, 'well...my character is a vigilante, but why do I need to disguise my scent?'

I'm taking some aspects from the Punisher as a primary focus with the tactical side of things, the manipulative side. , however I also see a side of the Hunter that's more of a pulp hero/adventurer. So you've got Indy Jones, Lara Croft, Drake's Fortune, characters that deal with environmental issues, punch baddies off the side of biplanes, and go all over the world. Now, since I let people select what parts of what they want, you could focus totally on one or the other, or even more of a trap monkey

Right now, I'm working on the trap system, I plan to talk about subdual damage, and possibly ambushes. Then I look at the idea of Hunters targetting mutants and experiments, and Hunters of the supernatural

[Father Goose]

how'd you guys feel about attacking attributes? That'd be an interesting way to have traps or certain attacks work. Granted, there'd need to be some explanation, but the idea is that you could have say...a bear trap, and the way it'd normally work is damage the leg, so it'd be standard damage and 2D4 SPD damage as well.

Granted some things'd be hard to damage, like P.S. But most everything else can be a save vs non-lethal poison away for hallucinogens (for M.A.), or other tranquilizers.

This might be a more interesting way for Hunters to operate optionally. Thoughts?

This is an intriguing option, and one that would be unique to this type of character.
As for damaging P.S., anything that saps energy or creates severe lethargy would effectively damage P.S. Neurotoxins would work by blocking the signals from the brain that engage the muscles.

I think you have some really great ideas, and lots of solid contributions from the community. I would suggest taking another look at the Demon Hunter in Armageddon Unlimited. While you wouldn't want to copy too much from that Power Category, you could adopt the Contacts, or create something else in that same style to reflect access to people, information, or equipment that is not available to just anyone. Batman has his super computer and police contacts, the Shadow has his network of informants, etc. These are individuals who rely on cunning and information to stay ahead of their foes and track their prey, not on super powers (shadow powers not withstanding) to do the heavy lifting. The Hunter/Vigilante should have some sort of edge like that too.
I think pulling a little inspiration from Physical Training, a little from Weapon Master, etc. is a good thing. It shows that it is a related category, but one that is still unique.

As for renaming the category, how about Stalker? It works equally well for Big Game Hunter characters as it does for Urban Vigilante characters, etc.

Lastly, I would love to see your finished product converted to an OCC as well, for use in games that use OCCs instead of Power Categories. I think it could have a great niche not quite filled by Scout and Bounty Hunter type OCCs.

[zerombr]

Oh almost all of my categories have the contacts option,. You can start with three and define them as you need them with GM approval.

[RockJock]

As long as the class comes out in a way that lets it standout and shine in it's niche I will be happy.

As is the Hunter/Vigilante has little to set them apart from a regular Joe with a good Military Specialist skill set and deep pockets, which is a shame.

[Daniel Stoker]

Ok, I am not looking for a conversion, but what comic/media characters would you consider inspiration for a Hunter/Vigilante? Many characters come to mind when I think of the name Hunter Vigilante, but none of them seem very close to the class. I mean a guy who guards Hell's Kitchen, a Russian big game hunter, and a immortal with a gem in his chest all seem like Hunters and/or Vigilantes, but none are all that close to this class.

Yeah outside of a specific Spiderman villain the first person I think of is the General Zaroff character from the Richard Connell story "The Most Dangerous Game".


Daniel Stoker

[Thom001]

I always pictured this character type as like a Shadowhawk/daredevil without his powers type character.

[RockJock]

Same here Thom, and that is where I run into problems with the class. If I can make a character with a similar outlook, and similar skills, but the powers of a mutant, or experiment the Hunter/Vigilante loses it's sparkle. Heck, the Physical Training, Ancient Weapons Expert, Analytical Genius, Hardware Weapons Genius, or even Secret Operative can all be made as a Hunter/Vigilante type character with more variety.

I am not talking conversions here, but gritty street characters like those in the Netflix Marvel shows are great examples of characters who take the law into their own hands. You have everything from a bullet proof guy to a ninja to a SF operative able to interactive and whip up on street level bad guys.

[zerombr]

It is no secret that the marvel Netflix shows have been a ton of inspiration for my writing

[zerombr]

As for renaming the category, how about Stalker? It works equally well for Big Game Hunter characters as it does for Urban Vigilante characters, etc.

Lastly, I would love to see your finished product converted to an OCC as well, for use in games that use OCCs instead of Power Categories. I think it could have a great niche not quite filled by Scout and Bounty Hunter type OCCs.

Hmm the Hunter does have a very specific skillset, I don't see what'd really need to change for it to be an OCC.