Secrets of the Atlanteans clarification

[Warmaster40k]

So according to the book, Atlanteans are no longer capable of producing offspring with humans. Something they had been capable since thier first mention in RWB2 Atlantis. Heck Humans, Atlanteans, Amazons and Ogres were concidered the same species, Homosapien. When did this change and why? The reason for them being the same species was why juicer and tatoos work the same for them. And the amazons, ogres were able to get thier numbers to grow.

[DhAkael]

Retconium poisoning due to writerits fiatism.
Re; Kevin and all his writers are willinginy ignoring previous canon for the sake of ... well I have no idea why, really.

[taalismn]

Retconium poisoning due to writerits fiatism.
Re; Kevin and all his writers are willinginy ignoring previous canon for the sake of ... well I have no idea why, really.

Lots of half-breeds wandering around raising questions about parentage and inheritance of traits.

But wait, there's those ogre kids...

[dreicunan]

They've apparently been secretly using artificial insemination this whole time just to make people think that they could still mate with normal humans. What a twist!

[Misfit KotLD]

They've apparently been secretly using artificial insemination this whole time just to make people think that they could still mate with normal humans. What a twist!

That's almost as good as villains vulnerable to the actions of stoners with a talking dog.

[RockJock]

I don't really get it either. Nothing really to gain. Especially when you consider the Atlantean basics date back to the 90s.

[eliakon]

Retconium poisoning due to writerits fiatism.
Re; Kevin and all his writers are willinginy ignoring previous canon for the sake of ... well I have no idea why, really.

Lots of half-breeds wandering around raising questions about parentage and inheritance of traits.

But wait, there's those ogre kids...

^this^I guess the authors decided that they didnt like the "my mother got pregnant by a mysterious stranger so I'm secretly a True Atlantian" thing.
Instead they just retcon things to make them a seperate race.
And yes, never mind the violence this does to all the established canon.
Personally this is just one more thing in the long line of things in the book that I plan to ignore for my games.

[DhAkael]

Retconium poisoning due to writerits fiatism.
Re; Kevin and all his writers are willinginy ignoring previous canon for the sake of ... well I have no idea why, really.

Lots of half-breeds wandering around raising questions about parentage and inheritance of traits.

But wait, there's those ogre kids...

^this^I guess the authors decided that they didnt like the "my mother got pregnant by a mysterious stranger so I'm secretly a True Atlantian" thing.
Instead they just retcon things to make them a seperate race.
And yes, never mind the violence this does to all the established canon.
Personally this is just one more thing in the long line of things in the book that I plan to ignore for my games.

Yeppers. Also, if elves want to engage in mating with "lower order" beings to begget a kid... They're elves! They have have a magic for that. Practically every other rpg setting allows it. Atlanteans ARE human, just...MORE.
Heck, Talismn and I have developed a way for the bloody Shemarrians to bump-uglies with willing (we hope) fleshy partners using a giant alien-tech egg-pod as an external womb.

[dreicunan]

Retconium poisoning due to writerits fiatism.
Re; Kevin and all his writers are willinginy ignoring previous canon for the sake of ... well I have no idea why, really.

Lots of half-breeds wandering around raising questions about parentage and inheritance of traits.

But wait, there's those ogre kids...

^this^I guess the authors decided that they didnt like the "my mother got pregnant by a mysterious stranger so I'm secretly a True Atlantian" thing.
Instead they just retcon things to make them a seperate race.
And yes, never mind the violence this does to all the established canon.
Personally this is just one more thing in the long line of things in the book that I plan to ignore for my games.

Yeppers. Also, if elves want to engage in mating with "lower order" beings to begget a kid... They're elves! They have have a magic for that. Practically every other rpg setting allows it. Atlanteans ARE human, just...MORE.
Heck, Talismn and I have developed a way for the bloody Shemarrians to bump-uglies with willing (we hope) fleshy partners using a giant alien-tech egg-pod as an external womb.

Where you willing participants in that research?

[DhAkael]

To re-iterate (and no offense to Gleba..love his work for the most part); this thing about Atlanteans unable to cross-breed with "normal" humans? I call big mountain high steaming loads of bovine-fecal-matter. I refuse that retconing garbage pile like I do the whole WULFEN vs. Wolfen thing. They're the same species with the same origin.

Any other GM who wants to go along with the rectcon(s), by all means... feel free to blindly follow re-writes to established canon.
We all saw what occurs when that happens didn't we, when George Lucas did his prequel trilogy of shame.

[taalismn]

Where you willing participants in that research?

It was strictly platonic....but we nevertheless have some incredible grandkids.....

[Curbludgeon]

The two big arguments against half-breed human variants are an aversion to discussions of rape and not wanting power gaming silliness. In all my games sex is a fade to black scenario, so I'm cool with there being no half-orcs and the like. However, I'm ok with characters having one ogre parent and one baseline human if a player wants to explore the idea, and can split the difference on stat lines. Similarly, one can do so with Atlanteans and Lemurians. I suppose the most metagamey situation would be a Lemurian/Atlantean hybrid, which I now guess is worth statting out. At a glance they would have good attributes, are unable to breath underwater, and have the cultural bonuses commensurate with whichever society in which they were raised.

[glitterboy2098]

out of curiosity, can anyone give me book and page citations for these 'hybrid atlanteans' that this supposedly contradicts?

i get that there has been a lot of people's character backstories and such disrupted (heck, even i have one that would be) but i am curious as to exactly what previous books said.

[Warshield73]

Was half Atlantean/Lemurian/Amazon half human even a problem? They would have lower attributes and shorter lifespan than a pure Atlantean/Lemurian/Amazon. Sea Titans and the like are far more disruptive and prone to power gaming then any of the above mixes, I would think.

I have always liked the no halfling rule in PB as it allows me to say no to the most ridiculous of power gamer requests. This being said I have always allowed basic, non idiotic or biologically impossible, halflings. I originally did this thinking I would have more then a few half elf requests but I never did. But I never got any requests. The closest I got was Sea Titan character that wanted one parent to be human which is clearly allowed under the rules.

I would be really interested in hearing from Carl or Kevin about why the change was made.

[Warshield73]

out of curiosity, can anyone give me book and page citations for these 'hybrid atlanteans' that this supposedly contradicts?

This is a really good question and I went looking for it in WB 2 and couldn't find it. Now, I also didn't see anything that says they can't so it just isn't mentioned as much as I can tell.

In WB 6 pg 97 it says Amazons can mate with normal humans, true atlanteans and ogres. Since humans and ogres can also produce offspring it just seems logical that TAs can also reproduce with humans and ogres.

[eliakon]

out of curiosity, can anyone give me book and page citations for these 'hybrid atlanteans' that this supposedly contradicts?

i get that there has been a lot of people's character backstories and such disrupted (heck, even i have one that would be) but i am curious as to exactly what previous books said.

Up until now they have simply called 'humans' and also up until now all humans have been interfertile. SotA is the first instance of them no longer being humans and being a different species.

There has not, to the best of my knowledge, been any formal mentions of hybrids. Although I also have not gone through all the books and read every line in every book about Atlantians and their backstories so it is theoretically possible that there may be a human in some character/groups canon history somewhere.

[glitterboy2098]

the only reference i've found so far has been in the Amazon RCC, where amazons can mate with TA's and almost always produce female offspring. however since the Amazons were created via true atlantean magic originally, that doesn't really say anything about TA+human pairings.

[eliakon]

the only reference i've found so far has been in the Amazon RCC, where amazons can mate with TA's and almost always produce female offspring. however since the Amazons were created via true atlantean magic originally, that doesn't really say anything about TA+human pairings.

It does make the issue problematic though for the simple reason that you now are making the Amazons able to breed with two separate races...
Humans/Ogres, and Atlantians.

And of course you then have Atlantians able to breed with two spate races Atlantians and Amazons.

Which means that we are violating the basic "no racial cross breeds thing"

Of course considering how much retcon, bad writting, and self insert this book is riddled with this is, frankly, not one of the top five issues. Maybe not even top ten.

I'll say it here, and I'll say it now.
The problem that is starting to creep in is that too many of the current authors are not writing game books. They are writing fan fiction. They are not working on how to expand the setting as it is, but instead on how to canonize their OC and nevermind what that does to the setting, or how much they have to retroactively change to do so.

[Warmaster40k]

Yeah, Got married, and moved into a new home. SO, still irritated by this new ruling. SO I think the whole community is in agreement. This is dumb, and to be ignored. That said, it is one of the cooler source books I have read from Rifts. HEY KEV, add this to the FAQ and phantom edit that garbage out. The reason the True Atlanteans have not been able to rebuild their numbers, is they are a mostly Nomadic People who are actively hunted, who still act like heroes, and due to timey whimey Rift travel, Linear time is a bit of a bugger to nail down so not much time has moved on. Heck 3% of their population are from the disaster, so they have that huge guilt complex.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To be honest the "No halfbreeds in Palladium" (Except a noted few) always struck me as Palladium being lazy/cowardly and simply 'not wanting to deal with the mechanics.
No higher purpose.
No "Realistically two different species couldn't be DNA capable"
No "You've more in common with an earth spider than an Elf from another dimension, biologically.

Just laziness. Crossbreed characters have been established since Fantasy/Scifi/RPGs started. Not allowing them doesn't make palladium unique. Just... lazy.

Yes. I'm aware of some of the types that crossbreeds attract. Power gamers and what not. They're easy enough to curtail.

Palladium just didn't feel like it at the moment and now it's turned into a decades long thing.

One that people flatly ignore any and every time they feel like (Which to be fair goes for any other rule too)

In this case though there's no 'in universe' ''Reason" to disallow it. The creators were just being lazy and it was a lot easier to type "no crossbreeds except X Y and Z" than have to deal with people crossing every little thing with roughly compatible genitals.

So if you want cross breeds. Ignore it.

Make a house rule, on how cross breeds are handled in your game. be consistant to that rule (What ever it may be) and have a party.

Remember GM's are able to say "no" if something stupid comes along. A hundredhanded/dragon or some crap.

[Warshield73]

To be honest the "No halfbreeds in Palladium" (Except a noted few) always struck me as Palladium being lazy/cowardly and simply 'not wanting to deal with the mechanics.

Not sure were the "laziness" comes from since the mechanics here are very simple. They just didn't think it made sense. I always assumed he wanted to make it easier for GMs to avoid the obviouse power gamer stupidity by making it a rule that the GM could ignore, or circumvent, if he wants.

No higher purpose.
No "Realistically two different species couldn't be DNA capable"
No "You've more in common with an earth spider than an Elf from another dimension, biologically.

All of these are true though. If Elves are from a completely different place and time with no connection to humans, one being magically made from another, then we would have more in common with a spider than an elf, DNA wise that is.

We have almost 99% of our DNA in common with chimps and bonobos but we can't interbreed with them so this just makes sense.

Just laziness. Crossbreed characters have been established since Fantasy/Scifi/RPGs started. Not allowing them doesn't make palladium unique. Just... lazy.

Clearly it does make them unique if it is well established in sci fi and fantasy but PB avoids it like the plague.

Also, just to point out that in Star Trek they had to create an in universe reason for all the half-breeds. STNG "The Chase", Season 6 1993 created a back story that some species that existed a million years ago seeded planets in that part of the galaxy with their DNA allowing for the interbreeding. If you read some of the articles from the writers of this episode they thought it was becoming ridiculous for ST to have all these mixed people given what we were learning about DNA and evolution that they needed something to make this look a little less stupid.

Again if you have a world were elves are just humans that have been magically changed or vice versa then half breeds might make sense but otherwise...

Yes. I'm aware of some of the types that crossbreeds attract. Power gamers and what not. They're easy enough to curtail.

Yes it most certainly does and no, it is not easy to curtail. You have to make house rules just like you would do if you want to allow half breeds in the existing game.

Palladium just didn't feel like it at the moment and now it's turned into a decades long thing.

One that people flatly ignore any and every time they feel like (Which to be fair goes for any other rule too)

I'm glad you "fair" on this. Yes there are lots of rules people ignore so I'm not sure why this one made PB lazy vs. they just had a different idea than you do?

In this case though there's no 'in universe' ''Reason" to disallow it. The creators were just being lazy and it was a lot easier to type "no crossbreeds except X Y and Z" than have to deal with people crossing every little thing with roughly compatible genitals.

Yes there is an in universe reason, biology. You have roughly compatible genitals with almost every mammal on planet Earth but your breeding options are far more limited than that.

Again I come back to chimps and bonobos. 99% DNA match, very compatible genitals, no half breeds.

So if you want cross breeds. Ignore it.

Make a house rule, on how cross breeds are handled in your game. be consistant to that rule (What ever it may be) and have a party.

Remember GM's are able to say "no" if something stupid comes along. A hundredhanded/dragon or some crap.

This is some of the best advice to any GM on any rule they do not like. It's al about fun and it's your universe.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To be honest the "No halfbreeds in Palladium" (Except a noted few) always struck me as Palladium being lazy/cowardly and simply 'not wanting to deal with the mechanics.

Not sure were the "laziness" comes from since the mechanics here are very simple.

Depends on what mechanics you choose to employ. I call it laziness because palladium just hand waves it and ignores it. There's no 'reason' they do so, other than choosing 'not' to do it. Why? Because they didn't want to deal with it.

They just didn't think it made sense.

There's no evidence of that. It's not actually directly addressed.

I always assumed he wanted to make it easier for GMs to avoid the obviouse power gamer stupidity by making it a rule that the GM could ignore, or circumvent, if he wants

Where that actually a reason.... lol...do you.... think.... it'd.. show... up in RIFTS?????

I mean... lol --really--?? Palladium and specifically Rifts is pretty much universally known by those that do know.. as power gamer stupidity heaven. Having cross breeds isn't going to add to that in any significant sort of way.

No higher purpose.
No "Realistically two different species couldn't be DNA capable"
No "You've more in common with an earth spider than an Elf from another dimension, biologically.

All of these are true though. If Elves are from a completely different place and time with no connection to humans, one being magically made from another, then we would have more in common with a spider than an elf, DNA wise that is.

Welcome to Rifts, where dragons fly through the skies and illiterate humans have science so advanced they can take bodies of their fallen from hours previous, rip the brain out and stick it in a robot body to live and fight again.

I understand the "Science"

Rifts is not in any way... shape.. or form.. based on Science. Not even remotely.

We have almost 99% of our DNA in common with chimps and bonobos but we can't interbreed with them so this just makes sense.

Again. Welcome to Rifts. Shall we go tour Lone Star?

Just laziness. Crossbreed characters have been established since Fantasy/Scifi/RPGs started. Not allowing them doesn't make palladium unique. Just... lazy.

Clearly it does make them unique if it is well established in sci fi and fantasy but PB avoids it like the plague.

Being scared to do something, or too lazy to do something doesn't make you cool. It's calling a flaw a 'feature' and trying to sell it to the ignorant.

Also, just to point out that in Star Trek they had to create an in universe reason for all the half-breeds. STNG "The Chase", Season 6 1993 created a back story that some species that existed a million years ago seeded planets in that part of the galaxy with their DNA allowing for the interbreeding. If you read some of the articles from the writers of this episode they thought it was becoming ridiculous for ST to have all these mixed people given what we were learning about DNA and evolution that they needed something to make this look a little less stupid.

It's Star Trek... which is very 'light' science fiction. There's psionics that can sense thought and emotion from dozens of miles away across open space, through starship hulls. Star Trek has the Q.

Once you have the Q, trying to "Justify something scientifically" is just a head fake. Star Trek had a bunch of human like aliens because the original creator didn't want tons of 'Aliens' with big rubber masks, or heavy make up/applications... and the original Trek was developed over 5 decades ago and couldn't do it anyway. it was logistics. Not scientific rational.

Again if you have a world were elves are just humans that have been magically changed or vice versa then half breeds might make sense but otherwise...

Palladium is a fantasy creation that just happens to have lasers as well as magic. The 'rules' are what ever you want them to be when you're writing such a thing. Again trying to shoehorn "SCIENCE!!!" In as an excuse.. in palladium, is laughable.

And I don't say that to be mean. It's just never been what you'd call a regular thing in Palladium books. (Which is fine. If you want harder Sci Fi there's other places to find it. Palladium SURE ain't it.))

Yes. I'm aware of some of the types that crossbreeds attract. Power gamers and what not. They're easy enough to curtail.

Yes it most certainly does and no, it is not easy to curtail.

Sure they are. I'll demonstrate "No you can't have it. That's a twinkish thing"

Done.

You have to make house rules just like you would do if you want to allow half breeds in the existing game.

Or just tell them 'no'. It's not that hard.

Palladium just didn't feel like it at the moment and now it's turned into a decades long thing.

One that people flatly ignore any and every time they feel like (Which to be fair goes for any other rule too)

I'm glad you "fair" on this. Yes there are lots of rules people ignore so I'm not sure why this one made PB lazy vs. they just had a different idea than you do?

Because it's not a rule. It's a 'lack' of rules. A hinderance to creativity. For a system that prides itself on allowing you to play all the tropes and sterotypes of all the games that ever where, to purposefully cut out such a HUGE segment of the industry and genre is lazy.

Include the rules and let GMs/Players decide if they want it or not. Don't play at doing 10 genre's and then disallow a foundation stone of them while doing so.

In this case though there's no 'in universe' ''Reason" to disallow it. The creators were just being lazy and it was a lot easier to type "no crossbreeds except X Y and Z" than have to deal with people crossing every little thing with roughly compatible genitals.

Yes there is an in universe reason, biology.

That's not the in universe reason though. That's a 'real world' reason. In a game it's a lack of creativity. When you can take Fido, up jump him to full sapience. give him psionic ability, bipedal motion, full hands, MDC armor, and a laser rifle.. going 'Oh.. um.. biology wouldn't allow it" is a joke.

You have roughly compatible genitals with almost every mammal on planet Earth but your breeding options are far more limited than that.

But I don't live in a game where dragons transform themselves in to cats. Spells lift you through the air. You can duel it out with a guy with a light saber, while zombies chase you through the ruins of a fallen society, before you trip assbackwards into a dimensional rift and land in a universe where everything is 2 dimenisonal and suddenly you're a cartoon from the sunday paper.....

There's a bit of a difference.

Again I come back to chimps and bonobos. 99% DNA match, very compatible genitals, no half breeds.

*Motions to half breed dogs, and cats, horses and mules.* But again, you're trying to shepard science 'fact' into science fantasy as a reason something can't be. If that's the case there's 500 things rifts suddenly wouldn't be able to do, but it does.

So if you want cross breeds. Ignore it.

Make a house rule, on how cross breeds are handled in your game. be consistant to that rule (What ever it may be) and have a party.

Remember GM's are able to say "no" if something stupid comes along. A hundredhanded/dragon or some crap.

This is some of the best advice to any GM on any rule they do not like. It's al about fun and it's your universe.

[Warshield73]

I'm sorry, I had assumed that we had all read the same materials, my mistake and I apologize. Just for Reference I will be referring to "A Note on Biology" from Conversion Book One, Pg. 29 published in 1991 which can be found almost word for word on Pg. 41 of the Revised CB1. I believe there is similar not in the original PFRPG but I am not positive.

To be honest the "No halfbreeds in Palladium" (Except a noted few) always struck me as Palladium being lazy/cowardly and simply 'not wanting to deal with the mechanics.

Not sure were the "laziness" comes from since the mechanics here are very simple.

Depends on what mechanics you choose to employ. I call it laziness because palladium just hand waves it and ignores it. There's no 'reason' they do so, other than choosing 'not' to do it. Why? Because they didn't want to deal with it.

They just didn't think it made sense.

There's no evidence of that. It's not actually directly addressed.

I get it, you don't like the rule but they didn't "hand wave it away" they stated there reasons clearly in a Note on Biology which is almost a full page in length. They talk about who can breed (like mutant dogs, especially wolves, being able to mate with wolfen and humans from any dimension or planet being able to mate. You may not like there reasons but they are stated clearly, in detail for all to read should they choose to do so providing there is plenty of evidence that they didn't think it makes sense.

The second line of the second paragraph "In the real world there are very few species of animals that can crossbreed and produce live offspring." Every IP decides what real science they are going to keep and which they are going to circumvent. Star Wars, at least in canon, has no crossbreeds. Mass Effect, doesn't either (Reminder Asari don't mix DNA with a mate the mate just randomizes their own). Both of these have faster than light travel and strange powers (the Force / Biotics) but they keep this one.

In many of the Fantasy / Sci-Fi IPs that do allow crossbreeds it is because the races have common ancestry which is not the case in Palladium.

I always assumed he wanted to make it easier for GMs to avoid the obviouse power gamer stupidity by making it a rule that the GM could ignore, or circumvent, if he wants

Where that actually a reason.... lol...do you.... think.... it'd.. show... up in RIFTS?????

I mean... lol --really--?? Palladium and specifically Rifts is pretty much universally known by those that do know.. as power gamer stupidity heaven. Having cross breeds isn't going to add to that in any significant sort of way.

A Note on Biology, first Paragraph talks about "half titan and half Gromek" and "half vampire, half dragon" so there is plenty of evidence that they were trying to avoid power gaming. They cannot control how people play Rifts, they just create the rules and people ignore them when they like.

Rifts has plenty of rules for reducing power gaming. From how expensive, rare and difficult to acquire certain tech or magic is to making the availability of it at the GMs discretion. If a GM allows it, and I have in some games, your RIfts characters can become like gods. If the GM uses the tools, which I have in most of my campaigns, your PCs will never be the toughest pices on the board.

No higher purpose.
No "Realistically two different species couldn't be DNA capable"
No "You've more in common with an earth spider than an Elf from another dimension, biologically.

All of these are true though. If Elves are from a completely different place and time with no connection to humans, one being magically made from another, then we would have more in common with a spider than an elf, DNA wise that is.

Welcome to Rifts, where dragons fly through the skies and illiterate humans have science so advanced they can take bodies of their fallen from hours previous, rip the brain out and stick it in a robot body to live and fight again.

I understand the "Science"

Rifts is not in any way... shape.. or form.. based on Science. Not even remotely.

Again, they state the reason, clearly for all to read and it is to avoid the "half vampire / half dragon that, and I don't know the power level of the games you run/play in, would definitely unbalance the games I run.

Dragons fly...so the bones of an ordinary human shouldn't break?
There are cybernetics so humans shouldn't die of blood loss?
Because both of those are rules found in the same book as no crossbreeds so I am not understanding your point.

Why do firearms in Rifts use gunpowder when sugar will do?
As I already stated every Sci-fi or Fantasy IP chooses what science they choose to follow and which they circumvent. Star Wars has the force and FTL but no transporters, is that laziness on their part?

As for PB being "universally known" for power gaming...that says everything about the player/GM and not about the game.

We have almost 99% of our DNA in common with chimps and bonobos but we can't interbreed with them so this just makes sense.

Again. Welcome to Rifts. Shall we go tour Lone Star?

Umm...wow...shaking head...you do realize that Lone Star is how the CS gets around this rule? I mean if humans and dogs could mate they wouldn't need to create dog boys right.

The rule just applies natural attempts and doesn't limit anything you might put in from a mad scientist or Gen-Splicer even. Also, it really doesn't limit you in anyway as you can house rule it and the mechanics can be simple. Everything is an average. Mom has a PS of 5D6, Dad has 3D6, child has 46 or roll both and take the average. Easy.

Just laziness. Crossbreed characters have been established since Fantasy/Scifi/RPGs started. Not allowing them doesn't make palladium unique. Just... lazy.

Clearly it does make them unique if it is well established in sci fi and fantasy but PB avoids it like the plague.

Being scared to do something, or too lazy to do something doesn't make you cool. It's calling a flaw a 'feature' and trying to sell it to the ignorant.

Please provide proof of them being scared to do this? I have provided plenty of in text sourcing so give me one thing other than blind hatred of the system. All I'm getting here is everything you don't like is a flaw and all of us who do like it or the ignorant who are stupid enough to buy it. If that isn't what you are saying please clarify.

Star Wars has no transporters, is that a flaw and not a feature? Star Trek ships would take decades to fly across the galaxy instead of the days or weks in other IPs. Where they too lazy to come up with the chartography of the entire galaxy so they just put it in there?

Also, just to point out that in Star Trek they had to create an in universe reason for all the half-breeds. STNG "The Chase", Season 6 1993 created a back story that some species that existed a million years ago seeded planets in that part of the galaxy with their DNA allowing for the interbreeding. If you read some of the articles from the writers of this episode they thought it was becoming ridiculous for ST to have all these mixed people given what we were learning about DNA and evolution that they needed something to make this look a little less stupid.

It's Star Trek... which is very 'light' science fiction. There's psionics that can sense thought and emotion from dozens of miles away across open space, through starship hulls. Star Trek has the Q.

Once you have the Q, trying to "Justify something scientifically" is just a head fake. Star Trek had a bunch of human like aliens because the original creator didn't want tons of 'Aliens' with big rubber masks, or heavy make up/applications... and the original Trek was developed over 5 decades ago and couldn't do it anyway. it was logistics. Not scientific rational.

I don't get what any of these, seemingly random, plot points has to do with the very specific part of the IP that I specifically referenced. Again, every IP choose what science they obey and what, and how, they circumvent it.

Yes GR wanted aliens that you could see their facial expressions but that didn't automatically follow that those races would be able to mix. If you want to be specific on why there was a spock and later other crossbreeds if you read some of the interviews with GR and Majel Roddenberry he did it for a lot of social-political reasons that today would be called PC or SJW.

Again if you have a world were elves are just humans that have been magically changed or vice versa then half breeds might make sense but otherwise...

Palladium is a fantasy creation that just happens to have lasers as well as magic. The 'rules' are what ever you want them to be when you're writing such a thing.

Agreed, these are the rules he wanted and some of us kind of like them. For those that don't, house rule.

From the very start of Rifts my friends and I didn't like rules for guided and smart missiles. We added in chaff, decoys, jamming skills, all years before they appeared in any books. Was that lazy on PBs part, no because are rules are complicated as all hades and many people that have gamed with me under those rules haven't liked them because they are too complicated and that's fine. They aren't "ignorant" they just wanted it simple.

Again trying to shoehorn "SCIENCE!!!" In as an excuse.. in palladium, is laughable.

And I don't say that to be mean. It's just never been what you'd call a regular thing in Palladium books. (Which is fine. If you want harder Sci Fi there's other places to find it. Palladium SURE ain't it.))

Yes, Palladium is much more "this one goes here and that one goes there" vs. tachyons through the deflector dish but I am not sure I see your point.

Gravity still works. Bows still fire forward instead of sideways. It isn't shoehorning its just world building. This is the science we like, we keep that. This is the sceience we don't, how do we get around it. Oh Mr. Heisenberg with your uncertainty principal saying transporters won't work, I give you the Heisenberg compensator. Take that science we don't like. - Star Trek reference for those unsure.

Again I bring up the lack of transporters in Star Wars and how, relative to other sci-fi, slow Star Trek warp drive is. Is that laziness or just the world they want?

What about Star Gate, wormholes are only one way. They have fictional scientific explanation for it but really they just wanted it for plot reasons. It's not shoehorning it's just the world they built. I mean they have engines that can cross between galaxies in days, ludicrously powerful energy shields that can withstand a coronal mass ejection but the wormholes only go one way? Please it is well established in sci-fi and fantasy that portals are two way, you're right this is just lazy.

Yes. I'm aware of some of the types that crossbreeds attract. Power gamers and what not. They're easy enough to curtail.

Yes it most certainly does and no, it is not easy to curtail.

Sure they are. I'll demonstrate "No you can't have it. That's a twinkish thing"

Done.

You have to make house rules just like you would do if you want to allow half breeds in the existing game.

Or just tell them 'no'. It's not that hard.

Agreed, it requires a house rule of similar difficulty and consistency as saying "I'll allow that".

[Warshield73]

Sorry, wasn't finished and I screwed this up a bit trying to finish.

Palladium just didn't feel like it at the moment and now it's turned into a decades long thing.

One that people flatly ignore any and every time they feel like (Which to be fair goes for any other rule too)

I'm glad you "fair" on this. Yes there are lots of rules people ignore so I'm not sure why this one made PB lazy vs. they just had a different idea than you do?

Because it's not a rule. It's a 'lack' of rules. A hinderance to creativity. For a system that prides itself on allowing you to play all the tropes and sterotypes of all the games that ever where, to purposefully cut out such a HUGE segment of the industry and genre is lazy.

Include the rules and let GMs/Players decide if they want it or not. Don't play at doing 10 genre's and then disallow a foundation stone of them while doing so.

In this case though there's no 'in universe' ''Reason" to disallow it. The creators were just being lazy and it was a lot easier to type "no crossbreeds except X Y and Z" than have to deal with people crossing every little thing with roughly compatible genitals.

Yes there is an in universe reason, biology.

That's not the in universe reason though. That's a 'real world' reason. In a game it's a lack of creativity. When you can take Fido, up jump him to full sapience. give him psionic ability, bipedal motion, full hands, MDC armor, and a laser rifle.. going 'Oh.. um.. biology wouldn't allow it" is a joke.

You have roughly compatible genitals with almost every mammal on planet Earth but your breeding options are far more limited than that.

But I don't live in a game where dragons transform themselves in to cats. Spells lift you through the air. You can duel it out with a guy with a light saber, while zombies chase you through the ruins of a fallen society, before you trip assbackwards into a dimensional rift and land in a universe where everything is 2 dimenisonal and suddenly you're a cartoon from the sunday paper.....

There's a bit of a difference.

Not sure what any of this means. It is an in universe reason the same as blood loss with still kill you. Just because your buddy can cast a resurrection spell doesn't negate it, just works around it.

Every stat in the game is a limitation on your creativity. What do you mean my laser doesn't hurt vampire, well it does now. My Enforce robot vehicle can only run at 60 MPH, too limiting on my creativity now it is Mach 1.

Again I come back to chimps and bonobos. 99% DNA match, very compatible genitals, no half breeds.

*Motions to half breed dogs, and cats, horses and mules.* But again, you're trying to shepard science 'fact' into science fantasy as a reason something can't be. If that's the case there's 500 things rifts suddenly wouldn't be able to do, but it does.

OK, first your writing is a little confused. Are you refering to different breeds of dogs and different breeds of cats or are you saying in IRL there are half dogs and half cats?

Deciding what can and can't be is world building. Why can't my compound bow launch long range missiles? What is this mass and inertia nonsense you are trying to put into my science fantasy games.

So if you want cross breeds. Ignore it.

Make a house rule, on how cross breeds are handled in your game. be consistant to that rule (What ever it may be) and have a party.

Remember GM's are able to say "no" if something stupid comes along. A hundredhanded/dragon or some crap.

This is some of the best advice to any GM on any rule they do not like. It's al about fun and it's your universe.

Again I come back to this as great advice but why is a hundredhanded/dragon croosbreed stupid? That is infringing on my creativy and trying to put your "reason" and "common sense" into my science fantasy game.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm sorry, I had assumed that we had all read the same materials, my mistake and I apologize. Just for Reference I will be referring to "A Note on Biology" from Conversion Book One, Pg. 29 published in 1991 which can be found almost word for word on Pg. 41 of the Revised CB1. I believe there is similar not in the original PFRPG but I am not positive.

No. I remember the half page from 28 Years ago. Thing is it self contradicts and doesn't actually back it up. It's a bad attempt at a hand wave.

To be honest the "No halfbreeds in Palladium" (Except a noted few) always struck me as Palladium being lazy/cowardly and simply 'not wanting to deal with the mechanics.

Not sure were the "laziness" comes from since the mechanics here are very simple.

Depends on what mechanics you choose to employ. I call it laziness because palladium just hand waves it and ignores it. There's no 'reason' they do so, other than choosing 'not' to do it. Why? Because they didn't want to deal with it.

They just didn't think it made sense.

There's no evidence of that. It's not actually directly addressed.

I get it, you don't like the rule but they didn't "hand wave it away" they stated there reasons clearly in a Note on Biology which is almost a full page in length.

1) It's not a full page in length, even adding the bit from the next page it's not a full page in length.
2) The Reasons aren't stated clearly. It's an inept attempt to justify the laziness that contradicts itself repeatedly in the half a page or so of text.

They talk about who can breed (like mutant dogs, especially wolves, being able to mate with wolfen and humans from any dimension or planet being able to mate. You may not like there reasons but they are stated clearly, in detail for all to read should they choose to do so providing there is plenty of evidence that they didn't think it makes sense.

Not at all. And for that exact reason. Stating that Wolven and Dog boys COULD breed, fully blows the "Elves and Humans could never breed out of the water.
If you're going to use "SCIENCE" as your justification you can't use it as the reason to allow 1thing and in the exact same breath use it to disallow the exact same thing.

If a human and elf can't breed because they're different species from different worlds/dimensions, then a wolfen from palladium fantasy can't breed with a dogboy from rifts earth, as they're different species. The fact that they both look a bit canine like doesn't some how circumvent that. But on that page.. it does.. yet a Rifts wheiner dog breeding with a Fantasy Wolfen from palladium fantasy works.. but a human breeding with an elf, who's difference is ears and life span is some how stupid?

In effect they say "You can't do this, but this is actually allowed, but no". They contradict themselves repeatedly trying to justify the reason they're TRYING to cite they're giving. Thus. Laziness and hand waving.

The second line of the second paragraph "In the real world there are very few species of animals that can crossbreed and produce live offspring." Every IP decides what real science they are going to keep and which they are going to circumvent.

Which is nice, it means you actually read to the end of my previous post where I say exactly that... in this case. Palladium chooses not to generally allow it. Because they're lazy. The "Biology" angle is totally debunked if a Monster bipedal race of fantasy wolf men can breed with genetically uplifted dogs from different planets/dimensions.

Star Wars, at least in canon, has no crossbreeds.

Yes it does. They call them "Hybrids". Look up Alter-espirions. Humans and Twileks can cross breed and the results vary greatly when they do. Quarren and Mon Cal could cross breed, Humans and Theelien could as well.

Mass Effect, doesn't either (Reminder Asari don't mix DNA with a mate the mate just randomizes their own). Both of these have faster than light travel and strange powers (the Force / Biotics) but they keep this one

Can't speak to Mass effect. Never played the game. But quoting one videogame doesn't some how make your point.

In many of the Fantasy / Sci-Fi IPs that do allow crossbreeds it is because the races have common ancestry which is not the case in Palladium.

*shrugs* It doesn't some how make it rare that they're allowed. It's a standard thing in the Genre.

I always assumed he wanted to make it easier for GMs to avoid the obviouse power gamer stupidity by making it a rule that the GM could ignore, or circumvent, if he wants

Where that actually a reason.... lol...do you.... think.... it'd.. show... up in RIFTS?????

I mean... lol --really--?? Palladium and specifically Rifts is pretty much universally known by those that do know.. as power gamer stupidity heaven. Having cross breeds isn't going to add to that in any significant sort of way.

A Note on Biology, first Paragraph talks about "half titan and half Gromek" and "half vampire, half dragon" so there is plenty of evidence that they were trying to avoid power gaming. They cannot control how people play Rifts, they just create the rules and people ignore them when they like.

I think you're mistaking "Anti-stupid sounding crosses" to "Anti-power gaming"
Again, Palladium, and Rifts specifically are known and have been known for literal decades as a power gamer's heaven.
Doesn't mean everyone that plays is (I am not, myself) But to act like it's not renown in the industry as such is disingenuous at the very best.

Rifts has plenty of rules for reducing power gaming. From how expensive, rare and difficult to acquire certain tech or magic is to making the availability of it at the GMs discretion. If a GM allows it, and I have in some games, your RIfts characters can become like gods. If the GM uses the tools, which I have in most of my campaigns, your PCs will never be the toughest pices on the board

In my 30 years or so of experience with Palladium, finding games that restrict things to logical 'sensable' levels tend to be the minority. Heck just being on these forums for years you see some other posters that become running jokes in sillyness. (Not naming any names.)

Can a GM make house rules and restrict things and keep it to a 'lower' level of power? Sure. You'll be cutting out huge parts of the books but that's fine. (I often do) But for every one that does there are many that don't.

Again, it's what the system is KNOWN for. A dragon toating a rail gun, or plasma rifle. Not for anything resembling restraint.

No higher purpose.
No "Realistically two different species couldn't be DNA capable"
No "You've more in common with an earth spider than an Elf from another dimension, biologically.

All of these are true though. If Elves are from a completely different place and time with no connection to humans, one being magically made from another, then we would have more in common with a spider than an elf, DNA wise that is.

Welcome to Rifts, where dragons fly through the skies and illiterate humans have science so advanced they can take bodies of their fallen from hours previous, rip the brain out and stick it in a robot body to live and fight again.

I understand the "Science"

Rifts is not in any way... shape.. or form.. based on Science. Not even remotely.

Again, they state the reason, clearly for all to read and it is to avoid the "half vampire / half dragon that, and I don't know the power level of the games you run/play in, would definitely unbalance the games I run.

No though, they don't. They state what they claim is the reason and then on the very same page prove it's not true. As for half vampire half dragon. Well that's just dumb (in my popinion.) It's not like Dragons having sex with vampires would produce offspring anyway. lol.

You can avoid "Stupid" with out trying to justify it with fake science, that you instantly disprove in a few sentences.

Dragons fly...so the bones of an ordinary human shouldn't break?
There are cybernetics so humans shouldn't die of blood loss?
Because both of those are rules found in the same book as no crossbreeds so I am not understanding your point.

No you're purposefully playing obtuse because you don't like the point. You understand it fine.

Why do firearms in Rifts use gunpowder when sugar will do?

They use Eclips.

As I already stated every Sci-fi or Fantasy IP chooses what science they choose to follow and which they circumvent. Star Wars has the force and FTL but no transporters, is that laziness on their part?

Actually i said it, then you tried to claim it, but neither here nor there. To answer your question though. No. In that instance Star Wars isn't being the lazy one. Star TREK was the Lazy one. Transporters were 'created' to avoid having to shoot shuttles going down to land on planets every episode. lol It was a cost cutting measure of TV in the 50s. Nothing more

As for PB being "universally known" for power gaming...that says everything about the player/GM and not about the game.

Afaid not. When the ---system--- is known that way, it says stuff about the system. If you hear about GM's being power gamers, that's different. You hear about some in most every system, but if you're in a game store and someone (Can find Palladium on the shelf) points to Palladium and goes "WHOOOOOOA talk about POWER GAMING and TWINKERY.. have you ever played RIFTS???" That's not indicating one bad GM or a few bad GM's. It's what the system is 'known' for.

We have almost 99% of our DNA in common with chimps and bonobos but we can't interbreed with them so this just makes sense.

Again. Welcome to Rifts. Shall we go tour Lone Star?

Umm...wow...shaking head...you do realize that Lone Star is how the CS gets around this rule?

That was my point. They ignore it when ever they want. "It makes sense" doesn't really have a place in Palladium as a -justification-. When oh so so much doesn't.

I mean if humans and dogs could mate they wouldn't need to create dog boys right.

The rule just applies natural attempts and doesn't limit anything you might put in from a mad scientist or Gen-Splicer even.

But that's the thing. A 10 foot tall wolf humanoid from another dimension can breed with a genetically uplifted dog from 'earth'. But.... a humanoid with round ears, can't mate with one with pointy ears!

Do you see the hypocrisy? By palladium's own logic both should work. As should Humans breeding with chimps and gorillas

Also, it really doesn't limit you in anyway as you can house rule it and the mechanics can be simple. Everything is an average. Mom has a PS of 5D6, Dad has 3D6, child has 46 or roll both and take the average. Easy.

I can and have house ruled. That' snot the point.
The point is that it's allowance or disallowance is based on nothing more than a hand wave and an ill illustrated one at that that breaks it's own rule, in the example to explain it. lol Where it actually consistant (From 30 years ago) that'd be one thing. But it's not.

Just laziness. Crossbreed characters have been established since Fantasy/Scifi/RPGs started. Not allowing them doesn't make palladium unique. Just... lazy.

Clearly it does make them unique if it is well established in sci fi and fantasy but PB avoids it like the plague.

Being scared to do something, or too lazy to do something doesn't make you cool. It's calling a flaw a 'feature' and trying to sell it to the ignorant.

Please provide proof of them being scared to do this?

Over thirty years of publications and the rule stands.

I have provided plenty of in text sourcing so give me one thing other than blind hatred of the system.

No you haven't. You've sourced less than one page that contradicts itself and indicates that it can happen, while trying to say it can't.

All I'm getting here is everything you don't like is a flaw and all of us who do like it or the ignorant who are stupid enough to buy it. If that isn't what you are saying please clarify.

I'm saying they're trying to sell a flaw as a feature and yes. Some people buy it. I can't help that. It's not that "Everything that I don't like is a flaw" The... flaws are flaws.

Star Wars has no transporters, is that a flaw and not a feature?

Star wars DOES have hybrids.

Star Trek ships would take decades to fly across the galaxy instead of the days or weks in other IPs. Where they too lazy to come up with the chartography of the entire galaxy so they just put it in there?

Their travel is different. Their 'laws of physics" are different, but (More or less) Established under their univers's rules, and (More or less) Adhered to.

Also, just to point out that in Star Trek they had to create an in universe reason for all the half-breeds. STNG "The Chase", Season 6 1993 created a back story that some species that existed a million years ago seeded planets in that part of the galaxy with their DNA allowing for the interbreeding. If you read some of the articles from the writers of this episode they thought it was becoming ridiculous for ST to have all these mixed people given what we were learning about DNA and evolution that they needed something to make this look a little less stupid.

It's Star Trek... which is very 'light' science fiction. There's psionics that can sense thought and emotion from dozens of miles away across open space, through starship hulls. Star Trek has the Q.

Once you have the Q, trying to "Justify something scientifically" is just a head fake. Star Trek had a bunch of human like aliens because the original creator didn't want tons of 'Aliens' with big rubber masks, or heavy make up/applications... and the original Trek was developed over 5 decades ago and couldn't do it anyway. it was logistics. Not scientific rational.

I don't get what any of these, seemingly random, plot points has to do with the very specific part of the IP that I specifically referenced. Again, every IP choose what science they obey and what, and how, they circumvent it.

Because you gave a false reason behind trek 'having to create an in universe reason for all the half breeds" They didn't. They had half breeds from the very start. Spock was in the first EP.
They didn't need "SCIENCE!!!" To save them. All the 'gods' and Q and everything they run into blows science out of the water. lol

Yes GR wanted aliens that you could see their facial expressions but that didn't automatically follow that those races would be able to mix.

And yet one of the first ever, was a mix. Your theory is DOA

If you want to be specific on why there was a spock and later other crossbreeds if you read some of the interviews with GR and Majel Roddenberry he did it for a lot of social-political reasons that today would be called PC or SJW.

That's some pretty heavy Revisionist stuff right there...

Again if you have a world were elves are just humans that have been magically changed or vice versa then half breeds might make sense but otherwise...

Palladium is a fantasy creation that just happens to have lasers as well as magic. The 'rules' are what ever you want them to be when you're writing such a thing.

Agreed, these are the rules he wanted and some of us kind of like them. For those that don't, house rule.

Then you agree with my point (You really do because you try and throw it at me numerous times above) Then the point stands. If the rules are what ever you make them and you cut out such a thing, then it's done on purpose.

"Science" is not a basis in THIS instant because in the same page it's claimed, it's proven clearly false.

From the very start of Rifts my friends and I didn't like rules for guided and smart missiles. We added in chaff, decoys, jamming skills, all years before they appeared in any books. Was that lazy on PBs part, no because are rules are complicated as all hades and many people that have gamed with me under those rules haven't liked them because they are too complicated and that's fine. They aren't "ignorant" they just wanted it simple.

Well there's two points to be had here.
1) You making bad rules doesn't justify a game company not making good ones. That's just on you.
2) Yes it's lazy by palladium. But then, Palladium's 'weapon knowledge" comes from late 70s and early 80s Chuck norris movies.... so... it's ignorance as much as lazyness. In this case, being ignorant and being too lazy not to learn enough about them to include them.

Do systems have to have rules for EVERYTHING? No. When you're doing an ultra high tech game though where guided munitions are a thing, should ya maybe google it? Yeah.

Again trying to shoehorn "SCIENCE!!!" In as an excuse.. in palladium, is laughable.

And I don't say that to be mean. It's just never been what you'd call a regular thing in Palladium books. (Which is fine. If you want harder Sci Fi there's other places to find it. Palladium SURE ain't it.))

Yes, Palladium is much more "this one goes here and that one goes there" vs. tachyons through the deflector dish but I am not sure I see your point.

My point is that palladium couldn't hit "SCIENCE" if it picked up a barn and threw it, at it. Trying to pause mid flow in all the Palladium sillyness and sudenly try to adhere to science is not going to work.

Gravity still works.

Sometimes.

Bows still fire forward instead of sideways.

Some bows, the act of pulling the string is enough to produce a Megadamage laser...... because... SCIENCE!

It isn't shoehorning its just world building. This is the science we like, we keep that. This is the sceience we don't, how do we get around it. Oh Mr. Heisenberg with your uncertainty principal saying transporters won't work, I give you the Heisenberg compensator. Take that science we don't like. - Star Trek reference for those unsure.

Again I bring up the lack of transporters in Star Wars and how, relative to other sci-fi, slow Star Trek warp drive is. Is that laziness or just the world they want?

YES it IS lazyness, just not the type you think. lol. The Star Trek Transporters were 100% developed because they didn't want to film the shuttle craft landing. That's 100% the transporters origin. Yes it was 100% an act of laziness (And finance)

What about Star Gate, wormholes are only one way. They have fictional scientific explanation for it but really they just wanted it for plot reasons. It's not shoehorning it's just the world they built. I mean they have engines that can cross between galaxies in days, ludicrously powerful energy shields that can withstand a coronal mass ejection but the wormholes only go one way? Please it is well established in sci-fi and fantasy that portals are two way, you're right this is just lazy.

You're trying to be snarky but in reality you're just proving the point. Yeah it's lazy. Yes it's a plot point buyt it's a lazy one that was developed early on. And they go both ways you just have to dial back. Sort of like a phone works both ways. But one side has to call the other one.

Surely you see that's exactly what StarGates were based off, don't you? lol

Yes. I'm aware of some of the types that crossbreeds attract. Power gamers and what not. They're easy enough to curtail.

Yes it most certainly does and no, it is not easy to curtail.

Sure they are. I'll demonstrate "No you can't have it. That's a twinkish thing"

Done.

You have to make house rules just like you would do if you want to allow half breeds in the existing game.

Or just tell them 'no'. It's not that hard.

Agreed, it requires a house rule of similar difficulty and consistency as saying "I'll allow that".

Then you agree that I've been right from the start, and Palladium in this instance were just lazy.

Thanks for playing!

[Warshield73]

I am not going to spend a lot of time on this as I read through the response twice and I saw no actual evidence to back up any of your points. I get it you hate the rule and you don't seem to have much time for PB either, just the impression you give, but since it is all your opinion there is nothing to debate.

Just a few points.

Not at all. And for that exact reason. Stating that Wolven and Dog boys COULD breed, fully blows the "Elves and Humans could never breed out of the water.
If you're going to use "SCIENCE" as your justification you can't use it as the reason to allow 1thing and in the exact same breath use it to disallow the exact same thing.

If a human and elf can't breed because they're different species from different worlds/dimensions, then a wolfen from palladium fantasy can't breed with a dogboy from rifts earth, as they're different species. The fact that they both look a bit canine like doesn't some how circumvent that. But on that page.. it does.. yet a Rifts wheiner dog breeding with a Fantasy Wolfen from palladium fantasy works.. but a human breeding with an elf, who's difference is ears and life span is some how stupid?

In effect they say "You can't do this, but this is actually allowed, but no". They contradict themselves repeatedly trying to justify the reason they're TRYING to cite they're giving. Thus. Laziness and hand waving.

I am really trying to understand your point here but it you're kind of all over the place. You hate the rule but because it has exceptions it is lazy and hand waving? So, and this is a legitimate question, if they stated the rule with NO exceptions you would be OK with it?

Star Wars, at least in canon, has no crossbreeds.

Yes it does. They call them "Hybrids". Look up Alter-espirions. Humans and Twileks can cross breed and the results vary greatly when they do. Quarren and Mon Cal could cross breed, Humans and Theelien could as well.

Source please? Again I was specific and said "in canon" these are all, as far as I have read, in Legends so if it is in canon let me know where you found that because I was told nope. The Quarrens and Mon Cal are ones that probably can but they come from the same world and are related so this would go along the same lines as humans and Neanderthals from what I've read. Again if I got this wrong just provide the canon, not legends, source.

However, even in legends this had limits. A Mon Cal could not mix with a human for instance, not even in legends. Again I ask, is this laziness on their parts.

Mass Effect, doesn't either (Reminder Asari don't mix DNA with a mate the mate just randomizes their own). Both of these have faster than light travel and strange powers (the Force / Biotics) but they keep this one

Can't speak to Mass effect. Never played the game. But quoting one videogame doesn't some how make your point.

My point was that these franchise have some things that are scientific and others that are not, which is proven by this example. However, you have made it sound like PB is the only one out there that doesn't allow this which is simply not true.

In many of the Fantasy / Sci-Fi IPs that do allow crossbreeds it is because the races have common ancestry which is not the case in Palladium.

*shrugs* It doesn't some how make it rare that they're allowed. It's a standard thing in the Genre.

Where did I say it was rare? It is standard in the genre. Another word for that would be cliche or over done. Another owrd for having it might be lazy but I would never apply that to the world that other people build.

Dragons fly...so the bones of an ordinary human shouldn't break?
There are cybernetics so humans shouldn't die of blood loss?
Because both of those are rules found in the same book as no crossbreeds so I am not understanding your point.

No you're purposefully playing obtuse because you don't like the point. You understand it fine.

I am asking very specific questions in the hope that I can understand your position such as it is. Since I have not insulted you I would kindly ask that you don't insult me.

These are rules based on real science, that can be circumvented by tech or magic or a milion other things so why are they not lazy and hand wave? It is a simple question, your inability to answer it doesn't make me obtuse.

Why do firearms in Rifts use gunpowder when sugar will do?

They use Eclips.

If I were a less polite person I might call this o...

I was very specific, if you could please be specific in your answer that would be great. I said firearms. not energy weapons.

As I already stated every Sci-fi or Fantasy IP chooses what science they choose to follow and which they circumvent. Star Wars has the force and FTL but no transporters, is that laziness on their part?

Actually i said it, then you tried to claim it, but neither here nor there. To answer your question though. No. In that instance Star Wars isn't being the lazy one. Star TREK was the Lazy one. Transporters were 'created' to avoid having to shoot shuttles going down to land on planets every episode. lol It was a cost cutting measure of TV in the 50s. Nothing more

First Star Trek is '60s not 50's but that is neither here nor there. Second I know the IRL reasons for them and I am not being obtuse I would like an answer. You are saying that anything TV show or movie does to tell a story within the budget they have available is lazy? If you are just being sarcastic here please say so otherwise you have a nonstandard definition of lazy.

Also, since transporters existed in the principal science fiction TV of the time why wasn't it lazy by your definition for Star Wars not include it?

Just laziness. Crossbreed characters have been established since Fantasy/Scifi/RPGs started. Not allowing them doesn't make palladium unique. Just... lazy.

Clearly it does make them unique if it is well established in sci fi and fantasy but PB avoids it like the plague.

Being scared to do something, or too lazy to do something doesn't make you cool. It's calling a flaw a 'feature' and trying to sell it to the ignorant.

Please provide proof of them being scared to do this?

Over thirty years of publications and the rule stands. [/quote]
So your proof is that they have kept a rule that you don't like... That's hard to argue with and by hard to argue with I mean you have given me nothing to argue with.

I have provided plenty of in text sourcing so give me one thing other than blind hatred of the system.

No you haven't. You've sourced less than one page that contradicts itself and indicates that it can happen, while trying to say it can't.

How long does an in text source need to be? I would settle for one paragraph that proves your scared or lazy point.

All I'm getting here is everything you don't like is a flaw and all of us who do like it or the ignorant who are stupid enough to buy it. If that isn't what you are saying please clarify.

I'm saying they're trying to sell a flaw as a feature and yes. Some people buy it. I can't help that. It's not that "Everything that I don't like is a flaw" The... flaws are flaws.

"The flaws are the flaws"...can't argue with that. Again, litterally can't be argued with because you provided nothing to argue against. If you misspell a word I can see the flaw. If you have a diamond you can see the flaws in it. Where is the flaw here other than you don't like this aspect of world building. I know I'm ignorant but try to provide something that can be agreed to or argued against.

Star Wars has no transporters, is that a flaw and not a feature?

Star wars DOES have hybrids.

Not sure why this is here as the section you quoted has nothing to do with hybrids?

Star Trek ships would take decades to fly across the galaxy instead of the days or weeks in other IPs. Where they too lazy to come up with the cartography of the entire galaxy so they just put it in there?

Their travel is different. Their 'laws of physics" are different, but (More or less) Established under their univers's rules, and (More or less) Adhered to.

That is a very generouse response, but it is not an answer. Was the limitation on speed in Star Trek lazy? I am actually trying to understand your point of view here.

This is also genorous because one could say that they

Thing is it self contradicts and doesn't actually back it up. It's a bad attempt at a hand wave.

[Warshield73]

Sorry, had to continue.

Also, just to point out that in Star Trek they had to create an in universe reason for all the half-breeds. STNG "The Chase", Season 6 1993 created a back story that some species that existed a million years ago seeded planets in that part of the galaxy with their DNA allowing for the interbreeding. If you read some of the articles from the writers of this episode they thought it was becoming ridiculous for ST to have all these mixed people given what we were learning about DNA and evolution that they needed something to make this look a little less stupid.

It's Star Trek... which is very 'light' science fiction. There's psionics that can sense thought and emotion from dozens of miles away across open space, through starship hulls. Star Trek has the Q.

Once you have the Q, trying to "Justify something scientifically" is just a head fake. Star Trek had a bunch of human like aliens because the original creator didn't want tons of 'Aliens' with big rubber masks, or heavy make up/applications... and the original Trek was developed over 5 decades ago and couldn't do it anyway. it was logistics. Not scientific rational.

I don't get what any of these, seemingly random, plot points has to do with the very specific part of the IP that I specifically referenced. Again, every IP choose what science they obey and what, and how, they circumvent it.

Because you gave a false reason behind trek 'having to create an in universe reason for all the half breeds" They didn't. They had half breeds from the very start. Spock was in the first EP.
They didn't need "SCIENCE!!!" To save them. All the 'gods' and Q and everything they run into blows science out of the water. lol

Have you watched Star Trek? They are always trotting out in universe "science" to save them. Second, I gave no false reasons. The episode exists, its on a lot of top 10 lists in fact and the reason was stated multiple times by the writers of NG and DS9. I don't know about the others as I stopped watching Trek after that.

Now I never said it was the reason that GR had hybrids, that is something they retconned later which I was, again, very specific about. You may not like the episode or the in universe "science" around it. You may not like the writers reasons for adding it to the canon, but it is there and those are the reasons.

Yes GR wanted aliens that you could see their facial expressions but that didn't automatically follow that those races would be able to mix.

And yet one of the first ever, was a mix. Your theory is DOA

What theory? I have no idea what you are talking about here. You made two different points, make up and hybrids, and I responded to them separately. I already acknowledged that Trek has hybrids so... what theory. This is an interesting discussion style you have, declaring victory at random intervals.

If you want to be specific on why there was a spock and later other crossbreeds if you read some of the interviews with GR and Majel Roddenberry he did it for a lot of social-political reasons that today would be called PC or SJW.

That's some pretty heavy Revisionist stuff right there...

What? The social political reasons for Spock by Roddenberry are well established by him. It is directly about the "race mixing" laws at the time and this takes place at lest 3 years before Loving v Virginia. Are you trying to say this had nothing to do with race in the 1960's?

What about Star Gate, wormholes are only one way. They have fictional scientific explanation for it but really they just wanted it for plot reasons. It's not shoehorning it's just the world they built. I mean they have engines that can cross between galaxies in days, ludicrously powerful energy shields that can withstand a coronal mass ejection but the wormholes only go one way? Please it is well established in sci-fi and fantasy that portals are two way, you're right this is just lazy.

You're trying to be snarky but in reality you're just proving the point. Yeah it's lazy. Yes it's a plot point buyt it's a lazy one that was developed early on. And they go both ways you just have to dial back. Sort of like a phone works both ways. But one side has to call the other one.

This really does prove my point. If you don't like a rule it is lazy. The one way travel of wormholes in SG is, in many of the highest ranked episodes, a critical plot point that creates an element of danger and real limitation on the power of the star gates themselves. It has exceptions, radio waves for instance, but it is simply the rules they built in for there universe and they use in universe "science" to justify it

Surely you see that's exactly what StarGates were based off, don't you? lol

I don't understand your response at all here. Are you being snarky?

Ultimately Pepsi Jedi what I find so objectionable about your post, and the only reason I decided to reply, is your ability to know what everyone is thinking. I'm ignorant for liking a rule you don't and intentional obtuse or snarky for asking a question you can't or won't answer.

PB is lazy and afraid for creating a rule, with exceptions, that you don't like and hanging science on it.

Everything you believe is Universally known.

People who want hybrids you don't are stupid, but you think others should be allowed.

A few things to think over:

You say PB is known for power gaming, but in my experience what most players come to the table with is a belief that it is over complicated or, more commonly, they've never heard of it.

If PB had the rule with the stated exceptions, but left out all references to science would you still object?

If an IP does things that don't make sense are they forbidden from ever bringing up real science in universe? If yes you have bigger problem then Rifts, it's called Star Trek.

[eliakon]

So let me get this straight...
If an author does not use the tropes that <insert some random Fan here> feels are the "correct" ones, then they are just being lazy, and those who like it are ignorant...
But only when judging those tropes that <Said Fan> gets to pick? Since as demonstrated, <said fan> is perfectly fine to find any other fictional universe to not be "lazy" even though they do not use all the same tropes, even ones that *gasp* do not have hybrid races

Why, it is almost as if every fictional work is unique! With a unique take on things! With that particular authors ideas of what they want in their universe and what they do not, and the reasons for that...
...
Almost exactly like that in fact.

Which is why there are no half dwarves in Tolkien.
Which is why there are no transporters in Star Wars
Which is why there are no heroic wizards in Conan
Which is why there are no good gods in H.P. Lovecraft
Which is why there are no lightsabers in Star Trek
Why there are no Cat-Girls in Bond Movies
Which is why there are no <what ever the author didn't want> in <pick oh anything ever written in the history of storytelling>

[dreicunan]

So let me get this straight...
If an author does not use the tropes that <insert some random Fan here> feels are the "correct" ones, then they are just being lazy, and those who like it are ignorant...
But only when judging those tropes that <Said Fan> gets to pick? Since as demonstrated, <said fan> is perfectly fine to find any other fictional universe to not be "lazy" even though they do not use all the same tropes, even ones that *gasp* do not have hybrid races

Why, it is almost as if every fictional work is unique! With a unique take on things! With that particular authors ideas of what they want in their universe and what they do not, and the reasons for that...
...
Almost exactly like that in fact.

Which is why there are no half dwarves in Tolkien.
Which is why there are no transporters in Star Wars
Which is why there are no heroic wizards in Conan
Which is why there are no good gods in H.P. Lovecraft
Which is why there are no lightsabers in Star Trek
Why there are no Cat-Girls in Bond Movies
Which is why there are no <what ever the author didn't want> in <pick oh anything ever written in the history of storytelling>

Just wait for the inevitable anime adaptation and there will be!

I was planning to post something along these lines. Failure to adhere to the tropes of a genre is not exactly a reason to condemn the work.

Even Kevin S would say that if you don't like his stance against mixed species progeny, just rule of cool it away, but it never bugged me. Then again, I never felt the need to tell the story of a half-atlantean, half-dragon, half-splurgoth adolescent struggling to make sense of his place in the megaverse.

[The Beast]

So let me get this straight...
If an author does not use the tropes that <insert some random Fan here> feels are the "correct" ones, then they are just being lazy, and those who like it are ignorant...
But only when judging those tropes that <Said Fan> gets to pick? Since as demonstrated, <said fan> is perfectly fine to find any other fictional universe to not be "lazy" even though they do not use all the same tropes, even ones that *gasp* do not have hybrid races

Why, it is almost as if every fictional work is unique! With a unique take on things! With that particular authors ideas of what they want in their universe and what they do not, and the reasons for that...
...
Almost exactly like that in fact.

Which is why there are no half dwarves in Tolkien.
Which is why there are no transporters in Star Wars
Which is why there are no heroic wizards in Conan
Which is why there are no good gods in H.P. Lovecraft
Which is why there are no lightsabers in Star Trek
Why there are no Cat-Girls in Bond Movies
Which is why there are no <what ever the author didn't want> in <pick oh anything ever written in the history of storytelling>

Well..., there sort of was this one.

[dreicunan]

So let me get this straight...
If an author does not use the tropes that <insert some random Fan here> feels are the "correct" ones, then they are just being lazy, and those who like it are ignorant...
But only when judging those tropes that <Said Fan> gets to pick? Since as demonstrated, <said fan> is perfectly fine to find any other fictional universe to not be "lazy" even though they do not use all the same tropes, even ones that *gasp* do not have hybrid races

Why, it is almost as if every fictional work is unique! With a unique take on things! With that particular authors ideas of what they want in their universe and what they do not, and the reasons for that...
...
Almost exactly like that in fact.

Which is why there are no half dwarves in Tolkien.
Which is why there are no transporters in Star Wars
Which is why there are no heroic wizards in Conan
Which is why there are no good gods in H.P. Lovecraft
Which is why there are no lightsabers in Star Trek
Why there are no Cat-Girls in B8ond Movies
Which is why there are no <what ever the author didn't want> in <pick oh anything ever written in the history of storytelling>

Well..., there sort of was this one.

Well played, Beast. Well played.

[Axelmania]

I don't know if they ever established the gender of http://www.007museum.com/blofeld_cat.htm either, unlike the 'Mister Bigglesworth' parody I don't even think it was named.

[MadGreenSon]

Personally this is just one more thing in the long line of things in the book that I plan to ignore for my games.

Gotta agree with you there. If freaking Altess* and Ogres are still compatible with humans for breeding purposes, then so are Atlanteans. Plus, there's nothing so awesome about just being an Atlantean that some half baked hombrewed and watered down version of it is worth the time and effort to come up with. There's also nothing so outre about them that they could be considered inhuman.

I've always figured that if an Atlantean diluted their blood by reproducing with a vanilla human, you'd get offspring that was basically a vanilla human. Maybe taller than average or something, but nothing particularly awesome. Like a vanilla human having a kid with an Altess. Regular human, that's it, that's all. I'd certainly never give a mechanical benefit for it.

*Dimension Book 5 page 114 Altess can have kids with regular humans, but the offspring is a regular human.

[RockJock]

Another random piece of info. It doesn't state TAs are standard humans, but pg 85 of WB02 does refer to Humans, Ogres, and True Atlanteans as "humans", as opposed to Elves and CK Dragons who can also get tats. Doesn't prove anything, but anything else consider "human" can have kids in PB.

Also worth noting, the next page or so talks about the limit of 6 tattoos, and that no TA can get more than 6 without being a Undead Slayer. Nowadays that is a light guideline since the Nomad can have more, so play it how it makes sense in your games.


For what it is worth, I've always allowed "Human" racial groups to breed, but the offspring are like one parent, or the other, not halflings. This includes, but is not limited to Ogres, Humans, Sea Titans, Amazons, TAs, Earth Children, Star Children, Altess, all three Seerian races, most Psychics, most Mutants. This is based on several little tidbits explaining how various human groups like the Sea Titans, Amazons, or even Altess have offspring that are one or the other, not halflings.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I am not going to spend a lot of time on this as I read through the response twice and I saw no actual evidence to back up any of your points. I get it you hate the rule and you don't seem to have much time for PB either, just the impression you give, but since it is all your opinion there is nothing to debate.

You seem to contridict yourself here as well. Not gonna spend a lot of time on it, and then go on to make multiple multipage responce.

You 'saw no evidence' because you either didn't read, or chose not to. I pointed out the evidence quite clearly.

More over you're projecting. I never said that I "Don't seem to have much time for PB either" You're trying to put that on me to discredit my points.
You have 1221 posts, over 8 years. Roughly 153 posts a year.

Over the past 13 years I have 16181 posts or, 1,245 posts per year.

So over a 13 year period any one year, I've posted more than you have in 8 years combined.

You're going to have a hard time selling that one man.

Just a few points.

Not at all. And for that exact reason. Stating that Wolven and Dog boys COULD breed, fully blows the "Elves and Humans could never breed out of the water.
If you're going to use "SCIENCE" as your justification you can't use it as the reason to allow 1thing and in the exact same breath use it to disallow the exact same thing.

If a human and elf can't breed because they're different species from different worlds/dimensions, then a wolfen from palladium fantasy can't breed with a dogboy from rifts earth, as they're different species. The fact that they both look a bit canine like doesn't some how circumvent that. But on that page.. it does.. yet a Rifts wheiner dog breeding with a Fantasy Wolfen from palladium fantasy works.. but a human breeding with an elf, who's difference is ears and life span is some how stupid?

In effect they say "You can't do this, but this is actually allowed, but no". They contradict themselves repeatedly trying to justify the reason they're TRYING to cite they're giving. Thus. Laziness and hand waving.

I am really trying to understand your point here but it you're kind of all over the place.

I'm not all over the place. PALLADIUM is all over the place
1) They say "You can't do this"
2) They then, on the same page, do exactly what they say you can't do.

It's quite simple.

You hate the rule but because it has exceptions it is lazy and hand waving?

I don't 'hate' the rule. I do find it lazy. And the explanation even more so, considering it contradicts itself IN the explanation trying to explain the rule. lol

So, and this is a legitimate question, if they stated the rule with NO exceptions you would be OK with it?

I would still consider it lazy, but if it did not contradict itself IN the explanation, it would make more sense. As it is, it's a weak half thought out explanation that invalidates the rule it's trying to define.
If you can't even explain why something the way it is, with out showing that it's expressly NOT the way you say, you have a problem

Star Wars, at least in canon, has no crossbreeds.

Yes it does. They call them "Hybrids". Look up Alter-espirions. Humans and Twileks can cross breed and the results vary greatly when they do. Quarren and Mon Cal could cross breed, Humans and Theelien could as well.

Source please? Again I was specific and said "in canon" these are all, as far as I have read, in Legends so if it is in canon let me know where you found that because I was told nope. The Quarrens and Mon Cal are ones that probably can but they come from the same world and are related so this would go along the same lines as humans and Neanderthals from what I've read. Again if I got this wrong just provide the canon, not legends, source.

Google it. I'm not trying to be funny but I'm not going to spend an afternoon citing sources from starwars. lol It could be done, but if you're curious, google it. I did. You made the claim that where were none. So it would be on you to 'prove' that. Other than just saying there aren't any, you've not proven it. I've pointed out cases where they are. If you want to support your claim, do your own research.

However, even in legends this had limits. A Mon Cal could not mix with a human for instance, not even in legends. Again I ask, is this laziness on their parts.

Your point would only have validation if I ever implied that 'everything' should be allowed to crossbreed with 'everything'. You're trying to create a strawman and attack the logic. I never said that. You do this quite often trying to put words into my mouth then laughingly disprove them.

They're YOUR words...

Mass Effect, doesn't either (Reminder Asari don't mix DNA with a mate the mate just randomizes their own). Both of these have faster than light travel and strange powers (the Force / Biotics) but they keep this one

Can't speak to Mass effect. Never played the game. But quoting one videogame doesn't some how make your point.

My point was that these franchise have some things that are scientific and others that are not, which is proven by this example. However, you have made it sound like PB is the only one out there that doesn't allow this which is simply not true

I did nothing of the sort. I said it was a standard trope. Not a UNIVERSAL one. Something can be standard, but not be 100% across the board. There are other options. That doesn't make the standard, some how not.

In many of the Fantasy / Sci-Fi IPs that do allow crossbreeds it is because the races have common ancestry which is not the case in Palladium.

*shrugs* It doesn't some how make it rare that they're allowed. It's a standard thing in the Genre.

Where did I say it was rare? It is standard in the genre. Another word for that would be cliche or over done. Another owrd for having it might be lazy but I would never apply that to the world that other people build.

I do when it's apt. You could say "Creatures breathing air is cliche or overdone" but it's a standard. Some don't. Most do. I hardly think that actually rates it as cliche. You're just attempting to discredit what you don't want to accept, while, actually accepting it. Which is some what amusing.

Dragons fly...so the bones of an ordinary human shouldn't break?
There are cybernetics so humans shouldn't die of blood loss?
Because both of those are rules found in the same book as no crossbreeds so I am not understanding your point.

No you're purposefully playing obtuse because you don't like the point. You understand it fine.

I am asking very specific questions in the hope that I can understand your position such as it is. Since I have not insulted you I would kindly ask that you don't insult me.

I wasn't insulting you. I said that you understand fine and are faking, NOT understanding. If I were insulting you I'd call you stupid or something. I've in fact, done the opposite. By saying that you DO understand something just fine, is not an insult.

These are rules based on real science, that can be circumvented by tech or magic or a milion other things so why are they not lazy and hand wave? It is a simple question, your inability to answer it doesn't make me obtuse.

They often are circumvented by tech. Else we wouldn't have... magical flight or bionics etc. The point is not the same though. You're trying to say "No crossbreeding because SCIENCE, but.. ignore the non science part in the science explanation!"

Why do firearms in Rifts use gunpowder when sugar will do?

They use Eclips.

If I were a less polite person I might call this o...

I was very specific, if you could please be specific in your answer that would be great. I said firearms. not energy weapons.

"Firearms" is a colloquial term.

And pointing out how 'polite' you are while 'half' insulting someone sort of disproves the previous, wouldn't you say?

As I already stated every Sci-fi or Fantasy IP chooses what science they choose to follow and which they circumvent. Star Wars has the force and FTL but no transporters, is that laziness on their part?

Actually i said it, then you tried to claim it, but neither here nor there. To answer your question though. No. In that instance Star Wars isn't being the lazy one. Star TREK was the Lazy one. Transporters were 'created' to avoid having to shoot shuttles going down to land on planets every episode. lol It was a cost cutting measure of TV in the 50s. Nothing more

First Star Trek is '60s not 50's but that is neither here nor there. Second I know the IRL reasons for them and I am not being obtuse I would like an answer.

You GOT an answer, you even acknowledged it. lol If you want a lie, make up what ever you like.

You are saying that anything TV show or movie does to tell a story within the budget they have available is lazy?

lol do you get a discount on all that straw?

Seriously man, Try making a counterpoint with out FIRST 100% fabricating a point that you're trying to dispute. You're just making stuff up at this point.

If you are just being sarcastic here please say so otherwise you have a nonstandard definition of lazy

I'm not being sarcastic. I made the point and explained it. ST was being lazy in that instance. It's well known. has been for two generations now. I'm not sure how much more clear I could be. I get that you don't like being proved wrong, but your dislike of it doesn't invalidate it.

Also, since transporters existed in the principal science fiction TV of the time why wasn't it lazy by your definition for Star Wars not include it?

There's a lot more Sci Fi than just trek man. You're trying to prove a point by saying something was standard before it was standard (And technically isn't standard now) to disprove a point about things BEING standard and lazy or not. I mean seriously. If you stretch any more you're gonna hurt yourself

Just laziness. Crossbreed characters have been established since Fantasy/Scifi/RPGs started. Not allowing them doesn't make palladium unique. Just... lazy.

Clearly it does make them unique if it is well established in sci fi and fantasy but PB avoids it like the plague.

Being scared to do something, or too lazy to do something doesn't make you cool. It's calling a flaw a 'feature' and trying to sell it to the ignorant.

Please provide proof of them being scared to do this?

Over thirty years of publications and the rule stands.

So your proof is that they have kept a rule that you don't like... That's hard to argue with and by hard to argue with I mean you have given me nothing to argue with. [/quote]

Your lack of ability to articulate a counterpoint doesn't disprove the point.

I have provided plenty of in text sourcing so give me one thing other than blind hatred of the system.

No you haven't. You've sourced less than one page that contradicts itself and indicates that it can happen, while trying to say it can't.

How long does an in text source need to be? I would settle for one paragraph that proves your scared or lazy point.

The source your cited disproves ITSELF. Thus does not qualify to prove a point. lol

All I'm getting here is everything you don't like is a flaw and all of us who do like it or the ignorant who are stupid enough to buy it. If that isn't what you are saying please clarify.

I'm saying they're trying to sell a flaw as a feature and yes. Some people buy it. I can't help that. It's not that "Everything that I don't like is a flaw" The... flaws are flaws.

"The flaws are the flaws"...can't argue with that

And yet you spend a good bit of time, words, and multiple posts attempting to.

Again, litterally can't be argued with because you provided nothing to argue against. If you misspell a word I can see the flaw. If you have a diamond you can see the flaws in it. Where is the flaw here other than you don't like this aspect of world building. I know I'm ignorant but try to provide something that can be agreed to or argued against.

The flaw is in the restriction, and trying to 'base' it on science, but the 'basis' that's used is instantly contradicted in the explanation of why it's not allowed.

If I'm making a rule. And I go, just as an example "you can only play Aliens with green skin. All their skin MUSt be green because Science says they''re skin is green. See these green skinned aliens and these green skinned aliens and that purple skinned one and these green skinned ones over here! So they must always be green skinned"

It doesn't make any sense, because in the explanation, I've shown purple skinned ones. More over I've tried to 'Prove' there's only green ones, and included a purple.

That was what palladium attempted to do. Make up an arbitrary rule to 'disallow' something. Then in their explination (Science!! Races from other worlds or universes can't breed! Even if they look mostly alike. Like Elves and humans!!!) ..... expressly defied the rule itself. (Wolfen and Dog boys can breed, because they look some what alike! (Even if a wolfen and a pug, dog boy don't look that much alike.)

They've defied their own 'rule' trying to explain the 'rule'.

Star Wars has no transporters, is that a flaw and not a feature?

Star wars DOES have hybrids.

Not sure why this is here as the section you quoted has nothing to do with hybrids?

Star Trek ships would take decades to fly across the galaxy instead of the days or weeks in other IPs. Where they too lazy to come up with the cartography of the entire galaxy so they just put it in there?

Their travel is different. Their 'laws of physics" are different, but (More or less) Established under their univers's rules, and (More or less) Adhered to.

That is a very generouse response, but it is not an answer. Was the limitation on speed in Star Trek lazy? I am actually trying to understand your point of view here.

No you're not. You're trying to be argumentative in 'fake' ignorance of 'made up' means of travel in fictional sources, in some attempt to prove a point. Different speeds of fake FTL travel are not the same thing.

[Jorick]

I feel like half-player character-races were only a thing in DnD before Palladium Fantasy came out. They were probably a thing in DnD because they were a thing in literature before, especially Tolkien. Most of what you got to play in early DnD was Tolkienish (Halflings, Dwarves, tall Elves from two different cultures), and there were also half-elves and half-orcs (which are the only two half-races in Middle-Earth).

Palladium fantasy is less like Tolkien in almost every way. You still got tall elves, but no halflings, or half-elves or half-orcs, though many of the other races were immediately familiar to anyone who had a Monster Manual. The difference was Palladium let you play them.

They designed a huge amount of races to play. Its ogres are a completely different idea than any other ogre ever (as far as I know). The magic of the world has a history, mixing High Fantasy tropes with Lovecraftian mythos. They painstakingly designed a runic system for people to play with (for some reason). I get that it seems like a mess now, but back then it fed the imagination so much more with its originality. What would life be like for a diabolist wolfen? No one had ever asked that question before, and had so much meat with which to answer it.

But they're "lazy" for not adding half-elves and half-orcs because in that one case they just didn't want to think about it?


On topic, I like the "pick one or the other 'human' parent" solution, and I agree that they bring it up consistently enough that it makes for a very comfortable ruling.

[MadGreenSon]

As I said awhile back, what even is a Half Atlantean? That's pretty much just a human. Maybe they'd be taller than average or have other markers of Atlantean heritage like black hair and a love for body art, but there is nothing in the Atlantean package that's so awesome that I would want a watered down version.

Atlanteans are basically just specially bred humans. If you mix non specially bred DNA in there, you're probably going to get someone who isn't very special at all. I suppose if you like angst it's a way to go, but there's nothing about it so cool that we need rules against it. We don't need any rules for it either since the rules for making a human are in the main book.

Honestly, I can't see why anyone would want it in the first place.

[eliakon]

I would suspect that even if they could still interbreed that they would be treated like virtually every other canonical example of two different humans mating...
I.e. you pick one parent and use their stats.
out of the couple dozen canonical examples I could find of this being covered in game I could only find examples of hybrids in Robotech, where we get Half-Zentradi and Half-Triolians.

[MadGreenSon]

I would suspect that even if they could still interbreed that they would be treated like virtually every other canonical example of two different humans mating...
I.e. you pick one parent and use their stats.

I agree completely. In my opinion, the result of a TA and regular human making a kid is a regular human. Diluting the highly fine tuned magical gene pool should have consequences. Amazons are their own weird thing and so are Ogres.

out of the couple dozen canonical examples I could find of this being covered in game I could only find examples of hybrids in Robotech, where we get Half-Zentradi and Half-Triolians.

Eh, those are conceits from the show and not of Palladium in general.

[eliakon]

I would suspect that even if they could still interbreed that they would be treated like virtually every other canonical example of two different humans mating...
I.e. you pick one parent and use their stats.

I agree completely. In my opinion, the result of a TA and regular human making a kid is a regular human. Diluting the highly fine tuned magical gene pool should have consequences. Amazons are their own weird thing and so are Ogres.

It's not just them.
There are dozens of other examples. All of which are "you are a member of Parent Xs race"

out of the couple dozen canonical examples I could find of this being covered in game I could only find examples of hybrids in Robotech, where we get Half-Zentradi and Half-Triolians.

Eh, those are conceits from the show and not of Palladium in general.

Which is in and of itself pretty damning.
When the only examples of hybrids I could find in the game...
...are deciding to make some fluff from another IP have some actual in game stats? yeah, not so good for Team Hybrid.
(Arguably I guess one could sort of argue that the Selkie children are a hybrid due to them being human but all getting a specific set of minor boosts)
Note, I am looking for hybrids not "third choice options" like we get with Demigods and Nagaspawn.

[MadGreenSon]

I would suspect that even if they could still interbreed that they would be treated like virtually every other canonical example of two different humans mating...
I.e. you pick one parent and use their stats.

I agree completely. In my opinion, the result of a TA and regular human making a kid is a regular human. Diluting the highly fine tuned magical gene pool should have consequences. Amazons are their own weird thing and so are Ogres.

It's not just them.
There are dozens of other examples. All of which are "you are a member of Parent Xs race"

Which should be fine, in my opinion. Sure, True Atlanteans are humans and there's nothing in their background about extensive genetic engineering. Thus we can assume that they got to have all their fun benefits through selective breeding of some kind and casting magic spells on their bloodlines, or something like that.

Either way, if we assume for the sake of argument that they could interbreed with baseline humans, I'd say it's the same situation as with the Altess; you get a regular human out of it. For flavor's sake we could say they have some superficial traits of Atlanteans like being tall and whatnot, but more than that isn't warranted.

If I were running it and feeling especially generous, I'd let this offspring have a few rolls on the human special abilities table out of Lone Star. Other than that? It's just a reason for said offspring to feel pissy about being "robbed" of a gifted bloodline.

I don't think many Atlanteans would be sanguine about denying their children such a heritage, especially since it would mean outliving said child by a huge margin more likely than not.

out of the couple dozen canonical examples I could find of this being covered in game I could only find examples of hybrids in Robotech, where we get Half-Zentradi and Half-Triolians.

Eh, those are conceits from the show and not of Palladium in general.

Which is in and of itself pretty damning.
When the only examples of hybrids I could find in the game...
...are deciding to make some fluff from another IP have some actual in game stats? yeah, not so good for Team Hybrid.
(Arguably I guess one could sort of argue that the Selkie children are a hybrid due to them being human but all getting a specific set of minor boosts)
Note, I am looking for hybrids not "third choice options" like we get with Demigods and Nagaspawn.

The thing about Tirolians and Zentradi, as I recall from dimly remembered Robotech lore, is that they were basically humans as altered by exposure to protoculture. Why this is the case and where they came from is never elaborated upon. So y'know, still not really "crossbreeding" in the same sense that half elves are.

[Father Goose]

For what it is worth, I've always allowed "Human" racial groups to breed, but the offspring are like one parent, or the other, not halflings. This includes, but is not limited to Ogres, Humans, Sea Titans, Amazons, TAs, Earth Children, Star Children, Altess, all three Seerian races, most Psychics, most Mutants. This is based on several little tidbits explaining how various human groups like the Sea Titans, Amazons, or even Altess have offspring that are one or the other, not halflings.

This has been my approach from the start as well. If one of the parents has an "always" clause, then so does the child. Otherwise, pick the parent you take after. No need for hybridization or panic.

Besides, the canon is rife with inconsistencies and contradictions, so GMs need to pick the path that best suits their world on a number of topics already. This should not come as a surprise that there is yet another contradiction to contend with. Just go with what makes sense, regardless of what is official, since 'official' is a murky pool at best anyway.

[Father Goose]

I'll say it here, and I'll say it now.
The problem that is starting to creep in is that too many of the current authors are not writing game books. They are writing fan fiction. They are not working on how to expand the setting as it is, but instead on how to canonize their OC and nevermind what that does to the setting, or how much they have to retroactively change to do so.

This happens with every game. What makes it unique here is that in other companies, they simply write a new edition of the game which allows them to rewrite canon to fit whatever the new vision is and ignore the parts of old canon they no longer like.
Since PB has used the same canon from the start, changes happen not from one edition to the next, but within the same continuity. It's absolutely jarring and most of us would agree we don't like it, but it is not an unexpected side effect of a single continuity tracking across decades with very different writers contributing their thoughts without a reset.
At this point, it might be better to call a halt on new projects and reboot the continuity to establish how the setting should be portrayed going forward.

[jlm2924]

Hey folks. Not going to feed the half-race monster. I have an actual Secrets of Atlantis question. Under the section about tattoo magic it says that a Clan Elder or an Alchemists can put tattoos on a member of their clan. So is Alchemists a playable OCC anywhere?

Also I got into a debate with a friend over the Atlantian tattoos. It seems to me that in order for a clan elder to put a tattoo on a clan member they would need three things and the skill Art:

1. A Magical Catalysts to make the ink(s) from.
2. The magical spell to empower the actual tattoo.
3. A special needle (like a Chiang-ku dragon tooth needle or something similar).

Thoughts?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Alchemists are Non-Playable OOC's. They require levels in 3 different OOC's before one even is qualified to start the Alchemist OCC.

[jlm2924]

Alchemists are Non-Playable OOC's. They require levels in 3 different OOC's before one even is qualified to start the Alchemist OCC.

Okay, so what three classes? Can you elaborate? I am making an NPC contact and I like to have them stated out on sheets in my NPC book.

[The Beast]

Alchemists are Non-Playable OOC's. They require levels in 3 different OOC's before one even is qualified to start the Alchemist OCC.

Are TA alchemists the same as ones from PFRPG?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Alchemists are Non-Playable OOC's. They require levels in 3 different OOC's before one even is qualified to start the Alchemist OCC.

Are TA alchemists the same as ones from PFRPG?

Yes and No, we have a cannon writeup of one in WB2. The Alchemist OCC itself is the same, but the Atlantean Variant has the pre-requesites of Ley Line Walker, Techno-Wizard and Stone Master rather than Summoner, Wizard, and Diabolist. Different path of study but same end result. Just subsittue out selling circles and wards for stone magic and making TW items. Potions, and the other services are the same.

[Curbludgeon]

(I'm going to try to say things accurately here. Please comment when I fail to do so. I am most likely to do so regarding PFRPG, in that I don't believe there is an alchemist with something other than diabolism/summoning/wizardry, but am uncertain, and would love confirmation.)


WB2:Atlantis has several mentions of Alchemists, which are presumably meant to be similar in build to Alchemists on the Palladium World. There they are depicted as NPC-only characters which changed classes more than once such that they are at least a 6-wizard/6-diabolist/3-summoner, and have a host of available services which aren't particularly reflected in Rifts. Please note that these are the only three magic using classes in basic Palladium that learn spells academically, rather than either being granted spells by a patron or learning them intuitively.

The first example of a Alchemist in Atlantis is the Splugorth High Lord (WB2 p43-45). They are described as all being Line Walkers/Tattoo Makers(an otherwise undefined class)/caster class of limited variety. The Magic subheading describes them all as having all stone master powers, which should be considered a misprint, since Stone Master is one of the High Lord specialties of choice.

The second example is the NPC write up of the head of the Sunaj Assassins, who is described as a 11th level Alchemist & Tattoo Master (an otherwise undefined NPC) with knowledge and powers equivalent to an 11th level assassin(presumably excluding tattoos), 6th level scientist, 5th level ley line walker, 2nd level techno-wizard, and 2nd level stone master. This is the character that the post above considers both canon and constituting prerequisites. I would argue instead that it simply represents an example rather than a requirement.

It's "unofficial", but some elements of the Black Crusade articles in the Rifter(52,55,61,68) were really obviously taken into consideration when writing db15. The best example of such is the repeated mentions of Tattoo Masters in db15, which is a unique OCC in Rifter 52. It's basically a less-combat focused Undead Slayer with fewer starting tattoos but the ability to create them on others.

Beginning of supposition: db15 has examples of clans where TW might not be prevalent, but where Alchemists presumably arose. Perhaps in lieu of all Alchemists having a requirement of 3 specific classes it requires 3 classes that don't involve gaining spells intuitively or exclusively via a patron, at least one of which is involved in item creation. This frankly introduces a bunch of lower-optimization options for potential NPC item-crafters which is great for world-building. I'd honestly be ok with one of the three classes required perhaps involving granted magic. That would allow, for example, a Mystic Kuznya/Herbalist/Earth Warlock, which is thematic as all get out.

[Zer0 Kay]

Retconium poisoning due to writerits fiatism.
Re; Kevin and all his writers are willinginy ignoring previous canon for the sake of ... well I have no idea why, really.

Lots of half-breeds wandering around raising questions about parentage and inheritance of traits.

But wait, there's those ogre kids...

^this^I guess the authors decided that they didnt like the "my mother got pregnant by a mysterious stranger so I'm secretly a True Atlantian" thing.
Instead they just retcon things to make them a seperate race.
And yes, never mind the violence this does to all the established canon.
Personally this is just one more thing in the long line of things in the book that I plan to ignore for my games.

Yeppers. Also, if elves want to engage in mating with "lower order" beings to begget a kid... They're elves! They have have a magic for that. Practically every other rpg setting allows it. Atlanteans ARE human, just...MORE.
Heck, Talismn and I have developed a way for the bloody Shemarrians to bump-uglies with willing (we hope) fleshy partners using a giant alien-tech egg-pod as an external womb.

So do the human males bump the ugly egg or bump the Shemar and if it is the shemar and they then go use the egg thing doesn't that make the shemar the most advanced love doll and or bipedal armored sperm extraction and transport vehicles?