Nexus Deevils numbers and Megaverse in Flames

[Hystrix]

Ok so on Megaverse in Flames page 158 it describes the Flaming Skull Army of Overlord Necroskull. In the layout of the army it stats that there are 5,000 Nexus Deevils in that army alone.

Now according to Dimension Book 11: Dyval page 63 it states that there are 6,000 Nexus Deevils in the entire Megaverse. Also, if add the numbers of the individual layers of Dyval, there are only about 992 present in Dyval.

So is the number in MiF a typo? Or is the Infernal population retconned?

Thoughts?

[The Beast]

It's someone not paying attention to what was previously written, and just throwing in whatever number they feel like.

[Hystrix]

It's someone not paying attention to what was previously written, and just throwing in whatever number they feel like.

Probably. But the rest of the numbers are realistic for the other sub races of Deevils. I don’t know. I’m kind of a numbers guy and this one really through me off.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Seems like the numbers fit. 5000 in the Army there, 992 in Dyval, 8 just kind of wandering around. They are rare demons, meaning the numbers are limited.

[Axelmania]

according to Dimension Book 11: Dyval page 63 it states that there are 6,000 Nexus Deevils in the entire Megaverse.

Actually it reads:

Nexus Deevils are as rare as they are beautiful and alluring.
It is believed that fewer than 6,000 are found throughout the many levels of Dyval.
Scholars suggest this is because their natural ability to dimensional teleport and control Rifts compels them to explore the Megaverse.

The 6000 is the upper-estimate on the ones in all combined levels of Dyval, not the Megaverse as a whole.

It doesn't include those presently waging war on Hades, the Palladium World, Rifts Earth, Wormwood, Phase World, etc.

The "believed" also opens the window to having greater numbers present if the GM desires, so you could have 1 million Nexus Deevils per level of Dyval if you really wanted to.

if add the numbers of the individual layers of Dyval, there are only about 992 present in Dyval.

*pg 106, 120 are "Hel's Lesser Deevils"
*pg 110, another 100 elsewhere in Prime (total 120 in layer 1)
*Pg 116, 12 "or so" in Northern Dyzonia
*pg 121 "none known" in Southern Preserves
*pg 131, 200 in 3rd layer
*pg 153 "few, if any" in the Glacia region of Tundra
*pg 159 "none known" in Frozen Wastes region of Tundra
*pg 163, 300 in Tundra Expanse
*pg 176, "10 or so" in Inferno
*pg 193 "50 or so" in Mines
*pg 215 200 in Grim Mortis

I think the presence of phrases/words like "or so" or "few" or "known" give a lot of flexibility there.

Also useful to keep in mind is what's mentioned earlier on 215...

while the Deevils think Grim Mortis is the farthest they can go, they are wrong.
There could be and endless number of levels to Dyval.
In fact, Lord Sahtalus may have already created additional layers to Dyval
or other worlds in alien dimensions,
but only he has the key to visit these unknown realms.
It is quite possible that Sahtalus has millions or more troops standing by ready to be unleashed.
No one knows what truly lies beyond Grim Mortis except Sahtalus and Grim


I don't know if Hades has an impressive blank cheque like that, the closest I can think is how easily they can great Greater Demons via the Death Demon plaque.

I'm not sure if there is ever a "total in the megaverse" statement anywhere for ANY type of Hadesian/Dyvalian demon. Would be very interested in knowing where it is and its context, since these numbers would change over time.

[eliakon]

I would like to point out that most of the demons and devils are not even really "Exclusive".
We have plenty of canonical statements that most of these demons and devils are found in the service of other powers as well.
Hades and Dyval are just the 'main stage' since those are the ones that get the most face time in the books.
Or we should say these versions of Hades and Dyval are, since there is plenty of evidence that there are multiple versions of both.

[Axelmania]

Are you referring to the CB1 alien intelligences which I think got reprinted in Dark Conversions?

[eliakon]

Are you referring to the CB1 alien intelligences which I think got reprinted in Dark Conversions?

Not just that
We have canonical parallel Palladium worlds. Which require parallel Hades since it is tied to Palladium as a reflection/parallel (basically it is an infernal nightlands kind of thing)

That doesn't even touch the question of "where does Hades the Greek god rule" or any of the rest of that mess.

So yeah... we can pretty safely say that "The underworld/infernal realms of the entire Megaverse are much larger than a handful of pocket dimensions"

[Axelmania]

Which parallel worlds, like the 60-second melee Palladium RPG and the 15-second melee Palladium Fantasy RPG?

Hades Aidoneous clearly doesn't rule any of the surface regions we've seen in the map, he rules subterranean areas not depicted.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Which parallel worlds, like the 60-second melee Palladium RPG and the 15-second melee Palladium Fantasy RPG?

Hades Aidoneous clearly doesn't rule any of the surface regions we've seen in the map, he rules subterranean areas not depicted.

We know you don't like the idea of a retcon, but you can't make them be seperate dimensions just because you really want to. Except at your own table as GM of course, but that's not really important for this discussion.

[Axelmania]

What do you think eliakon meant then? I was just throwing out one theory since I wasn't sure what he was referring to...

We have canonical parallel Palladium worlds. Which require parallel Hades since it is tied to Palladium as a reflection/parallel (basically it is an infernal nightlands kind of thing)

What are the canonical parallel Palladium worlds?

[eliakon]

What do you think eliakon meant then? I was just throwing out one theory since I wasn't sure what he was referring to...

We have canonical parallel Palladium worlds. Which require parallel Hades since it is tied to Palladium as a reflection/parallel (basically it is an infernal nightlands kind of thing)

What are the canonical parallel Palladium worlds?

There are around half a dozen of them listed in the list of dimensions in LoD/Megaversal Builder.
We have one where the Western Empire rules with rune weapons; there is one where Lightning Weapons are common alchemic items; there is one where the Elves won the war; and one where the Dwarves one and more.

[Axelmania]

Did Mark Evans ever clarify who was on his cover painting of "a new dimension being created" on the front of DB7? Reminded me a lot f Galactus.

Page 65 affirms Plato's visited the PW (though... which one?) which I hadn't noticed before (need to stop focusing so much on the Shifter OCC)

LOTD has a lot of "unique Demon" NPCs, makes me very curious if they're members of a near-extinct race or some kind of creation of a deity.

Going to have to comb through them to find these examples, glossary's of no help. Thanks for clarifying.

[Hystrix]

according to Dimension Book 11: Dyval page 63 it states that there are 6,000 Nexus Deevils in the entire Megaverse.

Actually it reads:

Nexus Deevils are as rare as they are beautiful and alluring.
It is believed that fewer than 6,000 are found throughout the many levels of Dyval.
Scholars suggest this is because their natural ability to dimensional teleport and control Rifts compels them to explore the Megaverse.

The 6000 is the upper-estimate on the ones in all combined levels of Dyval, not the Megaverse as a whole.

It doesn't include those presently waging war on Hades, the Palladium World, Rifts Earth, Wormwood, Phase World, etc.

The "believed" also opens the window to having greater numbers present if the GM desires, so you could have 1 million Nexus Deevils per level of Dyval if you really wanted to.

if add the numbers of the individual layers of Dyval, there are only about 992 present in Dyval.

*pg 106, 120 are "Hel's Lesser Deevils"
*pg 110, another 100 elsewhere in Prime (total 120 in layer 1)
*Pg 116, 12 "or so" in Northern Dyzonia
*pg 121 "none known" in Southern Preserves
*pg 131, 200 in 3rd layer
*pg 153 "few, if any" in the Glacia region of Tundra
*pg 159 "none known" in Frozen Wastes region of Tundra
*pg 163, 300 in Tundra Expanse
*pg 176, "10 or so" in Inferno
*pg 193 "50 or so" in Mines
*pg 215 200 in Grim Mortis

I think the presence of phrases/words like "or so" or "few" or "known" give a lot of flexibility there.

Also useful to keep in mind is what's mentioned earlier on 215...

while the Deevils think Grim Mortis is the farthest they can go, they are wrong.
There could be and endless number of levels to Dyval.
In fact, Lord Sahtalus may have already created additional layers to Dyval
or other worlds in alien dimensions,
but only he has the key to visit these unknown realms.
It is quite possible that Sahtalus has millions or more troops standing by ready to be unleashed.
No one knows what truly lies beyond Grim Mortis except Sahtalus and Grim


I don't know if Hades has an impressive blank cheque like that, the closest I can think is how easily they can great Greater Demons via the Death Demon plaque.

I'm not sure if there is ever a "total in the megaverse" statement anywhere for ANY type of Hadesian/Dyvalian demon. Would be very interested in knowing where it is and its context, since these numbers would change over time.

I do like this answer. And I’m aquatinted with the passage in DB11 regarding more levels of Dyval with more Deevils populating those levels.

Still, Nexus Deevils should be rare (otherwise what’s the point of the 6,000 reference?). And I’m still wondering if the 5000 Nexus Deevils mentioned in MiF is a typo. I’d really like the authors opinion on that.

As far as a “total number of Demons/Deevils in the megaverse” goes, the only reference I ever saw that comes close is a blurb in DB12 p. 110 that states that The Demons of Hades:

“may have billions if not trillions of demons roaming the Megaverse.”

I’d say it’s safe to assume that the Deevils have at least comparable numbers, right?

Hmm, may those numbers aren’t that far off after all.

Of course then that begs the question, do these Hell Lords build their own armies not fully sanctioned by the Deevil Lords? Because I can’t imagine a Deevil Lord or Regent allowing that many Nexus Deevils (which are an important commodity to say the least) to be in one lone Army.

[Axelmania]

Nexus Deevils should be rare (otherwise what’s the point of the 6,000 reference?).

To communicate that if they are present within the known levels of Dyval in greater numbers, that they keep out of view so that people will underestimate their numbers.

I’m still wondering if the 5000 Nexus Deevils mentioned in MiF is a typo.

I don't see why there's any need to question it.

As far as a “total number of Demons/Deevils in the megaverse” goes, the only reference I ever saw that comes close is a blurb in DB12 p. 110 that states that The Demons of Hades:

“may have billions if not trillions of demons roaming the Megaverse.”

I’d say it’s safe to assume that the Deevils have at least comparable numbers, right?

Hard to say, maybe they can get by with fewer numbers because they can network minions better?

do these Hell Lords build their own armies not fully sanctioned by the Deevil Lords? Because I can’t imagine a Deevil Lord or Regent allowing that many Nexus Deevils (which are an important commodity to say the least) to be in one lone Army.

Important, but not necessarily as rare as you're assuming.

Even if for example, the belief that there are fewer than 6,000 in Dyval turned out to be true: there could be trillions of Nexus Deevils in the Megaverse. Page 63 of DB11 is clearly talking about rarity in respect to Dyval itself, not in the Megaverse as a whole, since it mentions the belief of <6000 and scholars explaining that by their wanderlust.

There seems to be an implication that normal creatures with Dimensional Teleport can't get to places like Wormwood:

So skilled and powerful is the Nexus Deevil at traversing the Megaverse via dimensional Rifts, they can even come and go from Wormwood and similar places of little magic or isolated by thick dimensional wall barriers

I'm not exactly sure which Wormwood is supposed to be. I had got the impression that since Phase World / Cibola / Tree of Darkness all had active portals to it that it would be easy to get there, even if random "I accidentally rifted there" situations like Erin Tarn were unusual. Despite that ease of access, major dimension-hoppers like Atlanteans/Splugorth are collectively ignorant of it somehow, so I wonder if CJ forgot about that when he made notes about it in Phase World / South America, or if perhaps that is no longer the case now that Tarn's book publicized the place?

I could only think of Wormwood as being "little magic" in the sense that it lacks ley lines and nexuses (pg 44) Even though you get PPE regeneration similar to a ley line when inside a cave, that probably doesn't fulfill the prereqs of being on a nexus like for creatures who need a nexus to teleport.

Pg 64 "powers of dimensional travel" is probably why Nexus Deevils could hide out en masse in places like Wormwood (perhaps there is a secret city there with millions?) since they can make portals to a world it was last opened to (ie if one made a portal on the nexus Tarn's Shifter used, they could go to Wormwood too, long as nobody made a rift there afterward) whereas normal demons/dyvalians who dimensionally teleport probably require that they had been to the world before, I'm guessing?

[Borast]

while the Deevils think Grim Mortis is the farthest they can go, they are wrong.
There could be and endless number of levels to Dyval.
In fact, Lord Sahtalus may have already created additional layers to Dyval
or other worlds in alien dimensions,
but only he has the key to visit these unknown realms.
It is quite possible that Sahtalus has millions or more troops standing by ready to be unleashed.
No one knows what truly lies beyond Grim Mortis except Sahtalus and Grim

Gasp! Does The Great Bird of the Galaxy know Lord Sahtalus created ... subspace?!