CHI Development

[cms6317]

I have a question about Chi Multipliers.
Do the multipliers not stack?
Do I maintain a Chi amount based on Style in use?
If Tien Hsueh and Snake Style both give a multiplier at level 4, does only one count for level four?
What about the skill Qi Gong (from Rifter) which gives Double Starting Chi?
What if I learned the martial art in game at a different starting level? Like I changed classes and got a new martial art.

The book says:
DETERMINING CHI
P.E., the character's Physical Endurance, is the main "battery" of Chi. The starting Chi is equal to the adjusted P.E. (after all Skill and Form bonuses have been added in). The next step is to add in the Chi bonus from any Martial Art Forms. Finally, if the character has either Aikido, Snake Style Kung Fu, or Tien-Hsueh, the final Chi should be multiplied by the form's Chi bonus. Note that no character can have more than one Chi multiplier.

If I have a Martial Artist that has Snake Style, Tien Hsueh, and Tai Chi Chuan all get multipliers. Just taking the forms; it states Double Normal Chi for 2 of the 3.
Tien Hseuh: Double Existing Chi at level four, level eight, and level fifteen.
Snake Style: Double Existing Chi at level four, level nine, and level fourteen.
Tai Chi Chuan: Double Existing Chi at level three, level seven, level eleven, and level fifteen.


Qi Gong
Pronouced "chi-gung." This is an intensive, meditative breathing art practiced widely in China. Similar in many ways to Tai Chi, though far more focused on the gathering of Chi in the body and focusing that energy in beneficial ways. Qi Gong does not increase the positive Chi in the body, so much as it increases both positive and negative Chi. Truth be known, negative Chi is not always a bad thing — after all, everything is required in perfect balance, and Qi Gong, with regular use, will hone and perfect this balance. It is this balance of positive and negative that can be seen, overall, as a positive thing. For game terms, however, consider a character with this skill to be a beacon of positive Chi.
Add +1 to all saving throws!
Double starting Chi.

Can someone please help me?

[Vincent Takeda]

First things first, dont forget snake style has a double chi bonus at level 1 listed under 'character bonus' instead of under 'level 1', so he gets 4 doubles just like tai chi guy, and in fact reaches the 4th doubling earlier than tai chi guy at level 14 instead of 15,

so your snake style line should read

Snake Style: Double Existing Chi at level ONE, four, level nine, and level fourteen.

But he's a bad guy so lets skip that for the moment.

I'm not in the habit of using stuff from the rifters, so I cant really speak to that, but there are some other chi multipliers floating about. I think the conversion book gave a mutant with the healing factor mutation a double chi multiplier, and obvoiusly if you somehow managed to gain levels in Tai Chi and Aikido for example, both of those martial arts contain multipliers, so the implication is that you're not doubling your chi every time something says to double your chi, and obviously tai chi is the best choice for maximizing your chi as it has 4 points where your chi doubles. So a character with pe 10 get 10 chi, and a 15th level tai chi character gets 10x2x2x2x2, but a character with tai chi AND aikido is still only getting the 10x2x2x2x2, not using the chi doubling bonuses that occur within the aikido level tree or being a healing factor mutant.The only time the doublings stack is when their origin is the same martial art.

Mystic China has a chi skill called chi overcharge which would allow the martial artist to medidate for an hour and double his maximum chi, and in this case I do believe the doubling stacks upon the characters existing already multiplied upper limit, since by all rights the chi overcharge skill was learned as a result of taking the martial art that's doubling all your chi in the first place, so its still under that same single martial art unifying umbrella.

So a 15th level tai chi grand master with a pe30 gets 30x2x2x2x2 with another x2 overcharge after his morning meditation, topping out at 960 chi... Which makes his open hand technique somewhat hillarious because he can shove someone 960 feet without even spending a point. And thats not the least of what they can do considering the other chi techniques they can pull off.

So I cant speak to if it's 'canon' or not since you know... Palladium... but the way I see it you only get the doubling instances from one thing, and a chi overcharge skill that results from a chi doubling martial art will indeed give you yet another doubling, but thats the only time such a thing would stack.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have a question about Chi Multipliers.
Do the multipliers not stack?
Do I maintain a Chi amount based on Style in use?
If Tien Hsueh and Snake Style both give a multiplier at level 4, does only one count for level four?
What about the skill Qi Gong (from Rifter) which gives Double Starting Chi?
What if I learned the martial art in game at a different starting level? Like I changed classes and got a new martial art.

The book says:
DETERMINING CHI
P.E., the character's Physical Endurance, is the main "battery" of Chi. The starting Chi is equal to the adjusted P.E. (after all Skill and Form bonuses have been added in). The next step is to add in the Chi bonus from any Martial Art Forms. Finally, if the character has either Aikido, Snake Style Kung Fu, or Tien-Hsueh, the final Chi should be multiplied by the form's Chi bonus. Note that no character can have more than one Chi multiplier.

If I have a Martial Artist that has Snake Style, Tien Hsueh, and Tai Chi Chuan all get multipliers. Just taking the forms; it states Double Normal Chi for 2 of the 3.
Tien Hseuh: Double Existing Chi at level four, level eight, and level fifteen.
Snake Style: Double Existing Chi at level four, level nine, and level fourteen.
Tai Chi Chuan: Double Existing Chi at level three, level seven, level eleven, and level fifteen.


Qi Gong
Pronouced "chi-gung." This is an intensive, meditative breathing art practiced widely in China. Similar in many ways to Tai Chi, though far more focused on the gathering of Chi in the body and focusing that energy in beneficial ways. Qi Gong does not increase the positive Chi in the body, so much as it increases both positive and negative Chi. Truth be known, negative Chi is not always a bad thing — after all, everything is required in perfect balance, and Qi Gong, with regular use, will hone and perfect this balance. It is this balance of positive and negative that can be seen, overall, as a positive thing. For game terms, however, consider a character with this skill to be a beacon of positive Chi.
Add +1 to all saving throws!
Double starting Chi.

Can someone please help me?

All Chi multipliers stack with each-other. Yes, Snake Style and Tai Chi Chuan will give you x2 8 times. yes, that's x2 each time you get it. Yes that means x256 Chi total by level 15. yes this is legal. yes, you get 1 chi pool for all styles, it doesn't matter what style is learned when.

Qi Gong from the rifter is unoffical, but if allowed would be yet another multiplier for x512 chi by level 15.

[eliakon]

One thing to think about here...
Is that this vast pool of x2 multipliers...
might work like the way that critical damage works.
Specifically each x2 is really +base.
Thus if you have x2 it is x2... but x2 & x2 is x3 and so on.
This allows for Chi pools to exist with out having characters with thousands of Chi.

[Nekira Sudacne]

But why fix what isn't broken? You have to take two very specific martial arts togeather, meaning only two classes even can try, and take a nonoffical skill from a Rifter to boot. I wouldn't think the off chance of one character being a Chi beast is reason enough to limit other martial art styles which very clearly only get two or three doubles and were intended to wind up as x4 or x6 chi as part of their intended function.

[eliakon]

But why fix what isn't broken? You have to take two very specific martial arts togeather, meaning only two classes even can try, and take a nonoffical skill from a Rifter to boot. I wouldn't think the off chance of one character being a Chi beast is reason enough to limit other martial art styles which very clearly only get two or three doubles and were intended to wind up as x4 or x6 chi as part of their intended function.

Because those classes won't see much change and their reduction would still be keeping the numbers in line with the results.
Considering how CHI is supposed to be scarce and the examples have fairly low numbers... the idea that most CHI arts should result in adepts with hundreds or thousands of points seems... off.

[Nekira Sudacne]

But why fix what isn't broken? You have to take two very specific martial arts togeather, meaning only two classes even can try, and take a nonoffical skill from a Rifter to boot. I wouldn't think the off chance of one character being a Chi beast is reason enough to limit other martial art styles which very clearly only get two or three doubles and were intended to wind up as x4 or x6 chi as part of their intended function.

Because those classes won't see much change and their reduction would still be keeping the numbers in line with the results.
Considering how CHI is supposed to be scarce and the examples have fairly low numbers... the idea that most CHI arts should result in adepts with hundreds or thousands of points seems... off.

I disagree. I think it's entirely appropriate there are a handful of old level 15 chi masters with thousands of chi out there. This is trying to fix something that isn't broken and is working as intended.

[Axelmania]

*searches for NPC examples*
169... Miya PE 10, Chi 18, Choy-Li-Fut only gives +5 to chi, 3 higher than it should be...
169... Fung PE 23, Chi 18, Choy-Li-Fut gives +5 so it should be 28, 10 lower than it should be...
170... Jim Zee PE 16, Chi 28, Ninjutsu gives no bonus, 12 higher than it should be...
170... Le Boss - PE 12, Chi 22, 10 higher than it should be
171... Iyetsu Fukami - PE 26, Chi 29, Sumo gives +5 and doubles at lvl 10 so he ought to have 62 chi, so he's 33 below where he should be

Well that's no help

[Vincent Takeda]

On page 16 under determining chi it specifically says that no character can have more than one chi multiplier, so while it would be silly for a tai chi practitioner to switch from x2 to, well, x2 as he levels up means thats probably not the case, I'd maintain the posit that a character that took both snake and tai chi would not have x16 from one then also x16 from the other. I posit that getting another doubling from chi gung from the rifter and another 'temporary doubling' from chi overcharge would still apply if the chi gung and chi overcharge chi abilities were learned under the martial art that provided the original doubling bonuses.

So first level tai chi guy gets pE+15, then x2x2x2x2 as he levels, another x2 from the rifter version of chi gung, and another temporary x2 after an hour of meditation using chi overcharge.

Assuming that tai chi master had a middling initial PE score of 10, thats (10+15)x2x2x2x2x2x2=1600 chi points at 15th level after an hour of overcharge meditation, but also being a master of snake style shouldnt change that number at all. If its possible for a tai chi character to get an additional x16 to his chi from mastering snake style then I'm not sure what page 16's statement about not having more than one multiplier could possibly be referring to.

[cms6317]

On page 16 under determining chi it specifically says that no character can have more than one chi multiplier, so while it would be silly for a tai chi practitioner to switch from x2 to, well, x2 as he levels up means thats probably not the case, I'd maintain the posit that a character that took both snake and tai chi would not have x16 from one then also x16 from the other. I posit that getting another doubling from chi gung from the rifter and another 'temporary doubling' from chi overcharge would still apply if the chi gung and chi overcharge chi abilities were learned under the martial art that provided the original doubling bonuses.

So first level tai chi guy gets pE+15, then x2x2x2x2 as he levels, another x2 from the rifter version of chi gung, and another temporary x2 after an hour of meditation using chi overcharge.

Assuming that tai chi master had a middling initial PE score of 10, thats (10+15)x2x2x2x2x2x2=1600 chi points at 15th level after an hour of overcharge meditation, but also being a master of snake style shouldnt change that number at all. If its possible for a tai chi character to get an additional x16 to his chi from mastering snake style then I'm not sure what page 16's statement about not having more than one multiplier could possibly be referring to.

In my opinion, the statement is very poorly written. By stating that a character could never have more than one multiplier, that means that after the first multiplier, all others at other levels are void. The way that I would take the sentance is if there are multiple martial art forms taken, no character can have more than one multiplier per level. If the referenced character has Tien Hseuh and Snake Style, there would only be a multiplier from 1 martial art at level 4. They would still get the multipliers at 8, 9, 14, and 15. If the character also had Tai Chi Chuan they would also get the multipliers at levels 3, 7, and 11 but not at 15. Unless, the martial arts are taken at different levels, then the player has to adjust for any crossovers. If the character picked up Sumo, they get a multiplier at level 10 which does not coincide with any of the previously mentioned multipliers.

[Vincent Takeda]

I'd probably read it that way if it said 'not more than one multiplier per level' but since it conspicuously leaves out the 'per level' part, I cant imagine they meant such a thing. The nature of most of palladium's oops moments can be chalked up to fat fingering like 45d6 where someone missed the 4 key, or a 2d6x100 where they accidentally doubletapped a zero on the back of 2d6x10 kind of things. If i'm deciding which way to interpret how a rule shoud be read under the presumption that its written poorly, I'd be cautious about choosing the reading of the power that is an entire order of magnitude above the other possible interpretations of the reading.

Thats why they're so easy to catch. We KNOW the gun doesn't do 45d6 because thats a full order of magnitude jump. We know the 2d6x100 is likely a typo because again its a full order of magnitude more powerful. A rule that one can only suppose is missing two important words, when those two words are replaced suddenly means you're 10 times more powerful than you were... thats... ambitious.

A post by NMI here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79261 suggests that 'per level' is the correct wording, but i'm not sure if this is canon or not as the answer wasnt cited to be from wuj or ks. I'm not sure what powers NMI has over canon.

[cms6317]

I'd probably read it that way if it said 'not more than one multiplier per level' but since it conspicuously leaves out the 'per level' part, I cant imagine they meant such a thing. The nature of most of palladium's oops moments can be chalked up to fat fingering like 45d6 where someone missed the 4 key, or a 2d6x100 where they accidentally doubletapped a zero on the back of 2d6x10 kind of things. If i'm deciding which way to interpret how a rule shoud be read under the presumption that its written poorly, I'd be cautious about choosing the reading of the power that is an entire order of magnitude above the other possible interpretations of the reading.

Thats why they're so easy to catch. We KNOW the gun doesn't do 45d6 because thats a full order of magnitude jump. We know the 2d6x100 is likely a typo because again its a full order of magnitude more powerful. A rule that one can only suppose is missing two important words, when those two words are replaced suddenly means you're 10 times more powerful than you were... thats... ambitious.

The term: "Note that no character can have more than one Chi multiplier." If we are reading it literally, then the term double existing chi should never show up more than once, regardless of level. Otherwise, that is additional multipliers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The full context makes it more clear.

The starting Chi is equal to the adjusted P.E. (after all Skill and Form bonuses have been added in). The next step is to add in the Chi bonus from any Martial Art Forms. Finally, if the character has either Aikido, Snake Style Kung Fu, or Tien-Hsueh, the final Chi should be multiplied by the form's Chi bonus. Note that no character can have more than one Chi multiplier.

That Sentance is read in the context of determining starting chi. And it even lists forms it's possible to start with that have chi multipliers. This simply means you cannot have more than one chi multiplier at first level. These styles do have Double Normal Chi, but not as a first level per-level bonus, but simply a multiplier for taking the Style.

Which means the "Not that no character can have more than one chi multiplier" is specifically in the context of those three styles explictly and their Double Normal Chi bonus for learning the style. it has nothing to do with per-level chi multipliers.

It is very poorly worded however.

[Axelmania]

'multiplied by the form's chi bonus' is actually pretty badly worded, since it's a multiplier, not a bonus. The bonuses are the things you add to PE prior to applying multipliers.

"no character can have" doesn't seem like it's limited to just 1st level characters.

x2 x 2 rather than being looked at as 2 multipliers, might just be viewed as transforming into a x4 multiplier?

[cms6317]

The full context makes it more clear.

The starting Chi is equal to the adjusted P.E. (after all Skill and Form bonuses have been added in). The next step is to add in the Chi bonus from any Martial Art Forms. Finally, if the character has either Aikido, Snake Style Kung Fu, or Tien-Hsueh, the final Chi should be multiplied by the form's Chi bonus. Note that no character can have more than one Chi multiplier.

That Sentance is read in the context of determining starting chi. And it even lists forms it's possible to start with that have chi multipliers. This simply means you cannot have more than one chi multiplier at first level. These styles do have Double Normal Chi, but not as a first level per-level bonus, but simply a multiplier for taking the Style.

Which means the "Not that no character can have more than one chi multiplier" is specifically in the context of those three styles explictly and their Double Normal Chi bonus for learning the style. it has nothing to do with per-level chi multipliers.

It is very poorly worded however.

I completely agree with you. I think that it is specifically referring At Character Creation for Determining Initial Chi that the Double Normal Chi bonuses from those specific martial arts at taking them, not as a 1st level ability is prohibited from having multiple multipliers of double normal chi from different styles. However, I think that the double existing chi at the later levels, regardless, even from different styles at the same levels still apply to the character. It was poorly written and if they meant to be for All Time, then it would not have called out the three martial arts that do double normal chi as a multiplier. If it meant Chi Development it would expound upon those rules for going forward into futher levels. Instead, it says Determining Chi for initial character creation, found within the character creation section.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Palladium formating and editing is bad. Especially for this, a book admited by the company that was rushed out in 8 weeks with virtually no time to proofread let alone playtest.. Sometimes you have to read what it says, and sometimes you have to reverse-engineer what it intended to say. This is one of the latter times.

[Axelmania]

When you talk about it being rushed out in 8 weeks, are you referring to the original N&S that nobody can find anymore with super-bonuses, or the "Revised" edition which came out later and which Erick had time to make changes in?

[Nekira Sudacne]

When you talk about it being rushed out in 8 weeks, are you referring to the original N&S that nobody can find anymore with super-bonuses, or the "Revised" edition which came out later and which Erick had time to make changes in?

First printing. And it's not that no one can find it, it's just like any other short run book in that it's rare and hard to find, like finding a copy of Nightbane with Nightspawn on the cover.

[cms6317]

When you talk about it being rushed out in 8 weeks, are you referring to the original N&S that nobody can find anymore with super-bonuses, or the "Revised" edition which came out later and which Erick had time to make changes in?

First printing. And it's not that no one can find it, it's just like any other short run book in that it's rare and hard to find, like finding a copy of Nightbane with Nightspawn on the cover.

I just found 3 of them on eBay (2 now since I bought one).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ninjas-Supersp ... 2529480168
and this one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Palladium-Book ... Sw~gRVmw9u

[Axelmania]

Both of those say 1988, does that mean they're 2nd printings? Noticed the Wikipedia entry says October 1987. Certainly both seem to precede the 1990 revised...

Just noticed the front of my boko has the copyright date back to 1984, if Erick pitched the idea 3 years prior to the 1st edition then would it being rushed due to him splitting his time between it and TMNT?

[cms6317]

Both of those say 1988, does that mean they're 2nd printings? Noticed the Wikipedia entry says October 1987. Certainly both seem to precede the 1990 revised...

Just noticed the front of my boko has the copyright date back to 1984, if Erick pitched the idea 3 years prior to the 1st edition then would it being rushed due to him splitting his time between it and TMNT?

As long as it doesn't say REVISED, that's the one you want.