No Love For Base Classes...

[HWalsh]

This just strikes me as odd...

There are some truly great base OCCs in Rifts, yet even new players seem to hate them. I don't see why.

I've been playing Rifts since like 1997. I guess I got all the funkiness out of my system. I don't know.

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine? What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot? Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight, or maybe s True Atlantean Undead Slayer (albeit that isn't a base class, but I've only been in 3 games in 22 years that didn't have one). Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided? Even a Vagabond can be s blast.

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Hmm don't know. Never encountered that problem really. Just to double check though are you equating base class to what is in RUE/RMB?

[torjones]

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

That is not something that I've encountered. The classes from the Rifts Main Book are some of the best classes out there. Most of the time, 2/3rds of my groups will wind up playing one of those OCCs, unless we are playing somewhere like Japan or something, but even when playing something like New West, I might get one extra player going for the local character. For pretty much any game I've either played in or run in the central region of the North American Continent, I'll often see a borg/juicer/RPA or some other generic gun-bunny type character, an Operator or maybe a city rat if we are in a city campaign, a line walker or mind melter, and something completely random. Depending on who is at the table, and if we have any newbies, I might even see a GB Pilot or some giant robot pilot. Once you get above 6 players though, you start seeing more variety, and more branching out into additional books, just to have something unique to play, or at least, that's my experience.

Equipment and gear on the other hand... Some people seem to have this blind spot that newer gear has to be better than the older gear, but one of the best guns in the game is the NG-P7 and it was introduced in RMB. Armor is a bit more variable, assuming that you don't just want to sub-in CS EBA. The two NG books were needed for a long time, I think, and the Black Market book was another good gap-filler. I still have a binder full of adventuring gear I've written up over the past 20 years of GMing, but at least now I don't feel like I have to drag it out for every game. I always felt that a lot of little things were missing from the game until those three books came out.

[kaid]

This just strikes me as odd...

There are some truly great base OCCs in Rifts, yet even new players seem to hate them. I don't see why.

I've been playing Rifts since like 1997. I guess I got all the funkiness out of my system. I don't know.

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine? What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot? Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight, or maybe s True Atlantean Undead Slayer (albeit that isn't a base class, but I've only been in 3 games in 22 years that didn't have one). Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided? Even a Vagabond can be s blast.

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

Not sure I have seen that myself. I still tend to play operators and dragon hatchlings are always pretty popular. Some of them like robot/power armor pilots its more of a matter of there are a ton of variant OCC from various parts of the world that fill that role so sometimes people want a specific flavor of that type of character which is fine. Bursters and mind melters are still some of the strongest psychics in the game mainly because psychics other than psiscape really have not had much in the way of additions over the years compared to magic/tech stuff. Most psychic stuff that has been added is very specific to a specific OCC so it tends to just be various flavors of a theme like hydrokenesis or electrokenisis or cyrokenesis.

[kaid]

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

That is not something that I've encountered. The classes from the Rifts Main Book are some of the best classes out there. Most of the time, 2/3rds of my groups will wind up playing one of those OCCs, unless we are playing somewhere like Japan or something, but even when playing something like New West, I might get one extra player going for the local character. For pretty much any game I've either played in or run in the central region of the North American Continent, I'll often see a borg/juicer/RPA or some other generic gun-bunny type character, an Operator or maybe a city rat if we are in a city campaign, a line walker or mind melter, and something completely random. Depending on who is at the table, and if we have any newbies, I might even see a GB Pilot or some giant robot pilot. Once you get above 6 players though, you start seeing more variety, and more branching out into additional books, just to have something unique to play, or at least, that's my experience.

Equipment and gear on the other hand... Some people seem to have this blind spot that newer gear has to be better than the older gear, but one of the best guns in the game is the NG-P7 and it was introduced in RMB. Armor is a bit more variable, assuming that you don't just want to sub-in CS EBA. The two NG books were needed for a long time, I think, and the Black Market book was another good gap-filler. I still have a binder full of adventuring gear I've written up over the past 20 years of GMing, but at least now I don't feel like I have to drag it out for every game. I always felt that a lot of little things were missing from the game until those three books came out.

Weapon wise other than a bit of a spike in damage really quickly after rifts was first released has stayed pretty stable for decades. There are some outlier weapons but the stuff in the RMB or RUE are still perfectly fine damage wise. Armor has advanced though and as you mentioned the NG1 and NG2 books were really useful upgrades to get solid non military body armor back up where it should be.

Black market and heroes of humanity offer two different ways to fine tune/specialize your main core book classes as well. A fair amount of the OCC in the main book are very viable people to get advanced training or underworld affiliation.

[Hotrod]

I've always thought that Body Fixers were lame. In a world of MDC, serious wounds require a cyber-doc or magic, and disease isn't a significant part of the game, so the primary role of this class doesn't come up during gameplay. I've never seen anyone play one. Ever.

I dislike Crazies. I've heard of one or two cases of a person playing one well, but I've never seen it done. The only crazies I've seen played were by people with the personality of a troll using their characters as a free license to act like trolls. The Crazy O.C.C. is the Kender of Rifts.

Glitter Boys always struck me as being both over-developed and under-developed. The armor itself is awesome and highly detailed, and it has a rich history, but there's very little useful to work with about the people who pilot them. I've kicked around the idea of writing up an article on Glitter Boy culture and organizations. I have no issue with the class mechanics-wise, I just don't like defining characters by the specific model of power armor they pilot.

Elemental Fusionists have never held any appeal to me. Their magic section is incomplete, they don't show up anywhere else except in a video game that almost no-one has played, and Bursters are far more compelling.

Pretty much everything else, though? Awesome.

[kaid]

I am with you on body fixers. It is more of a mechanics issue than anything. Mundane healing is pretty pointless compared to psychic or magic healing so they rarely get much use in game. That plus unless you are using extra rules most of combat is MDC damage so if your armor fails there often is nothing left of you to heal. Generally if somebody wants to play a healer in the groups I have been in that was a mundane healer usually went for cyberdoc. That way they are pretty good party support reasonable healing ability and repair/computer ability and can help combat borgs stay in fighting shape.

Elemental fusionists actually are nice in that they fill the niche of blaster type spell casters. Their spells for offense and defense are stupidly efficient so off ley line combat casting is something they can do really well. Their pool of abilities is limited but what they have is all pretty good and are probably one of the easier spell casters to play if you simply don't want to use any normal or tw weapons to augment your damage.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Some of the RUE/RMB classes are overshadowed by what are basically just better versions in other books. (Paratrooper, ima lookin at you)....

But by and large, most of the core book classes are super solid.

Especially with the RUE tuneup, Shifter and LLW are top-tier spellcasters, rivaled ... maybe .. by the Temporal Wizard and thats about it.

I'd agree that Fusionist is trash, and needs to just go (it was only there because of that NGage thing), but the other Magic OCCs are solid.

Psi-Stalker always felt like it should have just been a race, and allow you to take any OCC, but it isnt exactly "bad" or anything.

Burster is still kinda "meh" (most of the Eruptor types are, even the ones that came later) just because their "class only" powers dont make up for the loss of versatility a Mind Melter has. But it isn't unplayable or anything.

Ill agree that Crazies can go (Kev's late-70s/early 80s design roots are clear in Palladium - lots of insanity tables, and crap like that). I agree that Crazies just seem to be mostly for trolls. They are rarely played well. The Class itself is solid though.

Some of the tech-based classes in RUE are junk (Merc Soldier sucks compared to like.. just being a Headhunter or even a CS Grunt) but.. whatever. Lots of choices there.
Agree that Glittery Boy is just... meh. I mean, the class itself is mechanically fine, but an entire class based around something that is a piece of equipment, that may get destroyed, leaving them piloting something else (or nothing)? Seems... i dunno, not that great. Its just an RPA pilot that is slightly better at one type of RPA.

Body Fixer, i agree, is just useless. Should have just had the Cyber Doc. They can do just about everything a Fixer can anyway, and can do everything, if they take the right skills.

Even after the RUE update, some of the Scholar and Adventurer classes still could use a look, but, again, not unplayable (Wilderness Scout isn't really awesome, but its not garbage or anything).

Hatchling Dragon is also... underplayed but amazing. Tanky (hundreds of MDC) and can sub in as both the party magic user and psychic, and pound the snot out of things in a melee.

Dunno. In games im in i either see people playing a lot of the core classes, or its the other way around and the entire party is special snowflake half-angel/cyber-demon bio-juicer tatooed freak things where the players are substituting the cool character string on the top of their character street for playing a character with a real personality.

The only real exceptions i see to the "usually a lot of people playing core classes" would be things like Tatooed men or other character types that were simply just not covered by the core books well.

[Warshield73]

I have to say that most of the players I've had, when the game is set in North America, have run OCCs from first RMB and then RUE. Even when I tried to get an Underseas game running, I tried to do a game exploring the Pacific Rim in a Trident sub, when they had OCC's from Japan & Australia to choose from 4 of the 6 went to RMB OCCs. My most recent attempt to get a gaming group going with 5 players, 4 new to rifts, a few years ago I asked them to give me what they wanted in a character and I gave them a list of OCCs that they might like. Those lists always included a few OCCs from the Merc books and WBs but all 5 ran OCCs from RUE.

I think these are among the most versatile and solid OCCs in the books and they just draw players in. They are also, and I hate to use this word, generic enough where they can fit almost anywhere in the world where as a lot of the OCCs found in the WBs just aren't.

I have to disagree with some of the criticisms in here though:

I do agree that trolls can be drawn to the Crazy, and few other players are, but I have seen a few people play it well and it is a solid OCC with lots of depth and great versatility of powers and skills. It might be a little old school now but I remember when RMB came out. Of the 7 people who made characters for my original group 3 of them had crazy on there final list. I have a hard time GMing this OCC but it's still a solid OCC.

The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

While I agree that the Rogue Scientist is a better choice for S&A the Body Fixer is still great. Since the CB1 came out in 1991 people in body armor and light power armor have been taking SDC damage from big physical hits and magic/psi healing is not always available. Also, if you have a Body Fixer in your group (just like an Operator) you can be welcomed into any community. They have a lot of skills and can pilot anything including robots and power armor so they can function in combat. I have never had a player run this OCC but it would work as well as any other S&A.

[eliakon]

This just strikes me as odd...

There are some truly great base OCCs in Rifts, yet even new players seem to hate them. I don't see why.

I've been playing Rifts since like 1997. I guess I got all the funkiness out of my system. I don't know.

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine? What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot? Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight, or maybe s True Atlantean Undead Slayer (albeit that isn't a base class, but I've only been in 3 games in 22 years that didn't have one). Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided? Even a Vagabond can be s blast.

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

I think this is because there are two kinds of groups out there honestly.
The people that are always going for the Temporal Wizard are generally looking for the ability to snag super high level spells like Talisman and Scroll at level 1 which is impossible with other classes.

The Mystic Knight is super popular due to it being basically immune to most MD weapons (it just ignores energy weapons...)

Psychics in my experiance get short shrift no matter what kind they are due to the way ISP works. Simply put they tend to run out of juice really fast and then your stuck with a character that has few if any skills and no powers for loooong periods of down time while your ISP slowly trickle back in.

[torjones]

I've always thought that Body Fixers were lame. In a world of MDC, serious wounds require a cyber-doc or magic, and disease isn't a significant part of the game, so the primary role of this class doesn't come up during gameplay. I've never seen anyone play one. Ever.

You know, I was about to say that I've had at least one person play one, but then I remembered that it was a city-rat campaign, and the medic was a cyber-doc, not a fixer, for what should be obvious reasons. There just doesn't seem to be much to benefit the fixer when healing people when the cyber-doc can do the same thing, almost as well skills wise, and can deal with cybernetics and bionics.

I dislike Crazies. I've heard of one or two cases of a person playing one well, but I've never seen it done. The only crazies I've seen played were by people with the personality of a troll using their characters as a free license to act like trolls. The Crazy O.C.C. is the Kender of Rifts.

I can't blame you. I think they are difficult to play, unless you have the right personality, or can switch characters in your head very quickly. Then again, if you can do that, why aren't you making big bucks off of Hollywood with those acting skills that are better than 98% of the others there? Most of the time, it just devolves into the person playing themselves with a few new quirks, not the crazy. I've had one player that did it alright, but I wouldn't say it was fantastic, and the character didn't last all that long.

Elemental Fusionists have never held any appeal to me. Their magic section is incomplete, they don't show up anywhere else except in a video game that almost no-one has played, and Bursters are far more compelling.
Pretty much everything else, though? Awesome.

I can't disagree with you about the fusionist either. Then again, I never much cared for the Warlocks, so I can't really tell if it's an improvement or not over the original non-psychic OCC. They might make a tiny bit more sense in PF, but honestly, I'd still rather play pretty much anything else, LLW, Shifter, TW, Diabolist, all far more interesting to me than the Warlocks and Fusionists, and if you want a PCC, Bursters and Melters are more interesting. Though, to be honest, one of my favorite PCCs is the Neo-Human. I love flying, they are one of the best healers on Rifts Earth, and they are just as competent at ass kicking as most other characters. Any way you want to play them, you can. Lots of fun to play. (even if they aren't from the RMB)

[dreicunan]

We had a campaign once where we had a Body-Fixer with Super-powers, whose super-powers (pretty sure he just had a bunch of minor powers) ended up being the least useful aspect of the character (hence why I can't clearly remember what he had, though I'm certain something made him naturally MDC). The GM did a great job of adapting the campaign to the characters, and thus one of the big bads ended up being a sentient virus that hid amongst non-human D-Bees and made humans into what were basically zombies. Now, maybe a Cyber-doc could have done the same thing, but the way we beat it was the Body Fixer eventually coming up with a vaccine against it and inoculating the heck out of everyone we could find (and convincing the CS to do the same).

I've also found that Body-Fixers (and Cyber-docs) become more important when you aren't using a 1-100 conversion for MD to SD damage but instead something like 1-10 or other variations, as well as when your GM periodically rolls to see if anyone contracted an illness!

[Hotrod]

I do agree that trolls can be drawn to the Crazy, and few other players are, but I have seen a few people play it well and it is a solid OCC with lots of depth and great versatility of powers and skills. It might be a little old school now but I remember when RMB came out. Of the 7 people who made characters for my original group 3 of them had crazy on there final list. I have a hard time GMing this OCC but it's still a solid OCC.

I like how developed the class is. I just find that, in practice, its distinctiveness causes aggravation and discord to gaming sessions, and it adds no gaming or roleplaying benefit.; its capabilities and many of its themes are redundant with juicers. I acknowledge that it's possible to play it well; I just haven't seen it done.

The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

While I agree that the Rogue Scientist is a better choice for S&A the Body Fixer is still great. Since the CB1 came out in 1991 people in body armor and light power armor have been taking SDC damage from big physical hits and magic/psi healing is not always available. Also, if you have a Body Fixer in your group (just like an Operator) you can be welcomed into any community. They have a lot of skills and can pilot anything including robots and power armor so they can function in combat. I have never had a player run this OCC but it would work as well as any other S&A.

The primary function of the class is to cure diseases and treat injuries. Diseases hardly ever come up in Rifts, and the Body Fixer is out-classed in treating injuries by healing psionics, healing magic, cybernetics, and gizmos that require no medical skill whatsoever. Body Fixers can't effectively get severely injured people back to full capability, because severe injuries tend to involve loss of limbs, paralysis, deafness, blindness, and other conditions that Body Fixers cannot fix.

I agree that there's nothing intrinsically bad about the class. I'd have no objection to a player who wants to play one, and it could actually be interesting to have a medically-focused adventure/campaign. There's a reason why people like hospital shows, after all. Rifts isn't designed for that kind of gameplay. Players generally want to play O.C.C.'s that bring something special and useful to a group. If they don't, well, that's what the Vagabond O.C.C. is for (and Vagabonds with healing psionics > body fixers at healing).

The "people are welcoming" aspect of the class can be neat from a roleplay perspective, but this isn't unique to Body Fixers. Cyber-Docs, Cyber-Knights, and Glitter Boys are also favorably viewed and often welcomed. If the party becomes well-established/famous, they may be welcomed regardless of their O.C.C.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

I played them as larger than life heroes or bad guys for the most part.

I did end up giving the 'Descended' Glitter Boy some special OCC abilities.
1. Glitter Boy Mechanics. Either a base chance of 25%+5% per level, or provide a +15% bonus as an assistant to Operator (or someone with the appropriate engineering skills)
2. Glitter Boy Lore. 35%+5% per level. Knows about history of the Glitter Boy (all post Rifts, with a -20 for pre-rifts), famous pilots, battles involving Glitter Boys, etc
3. Glitter Boy Contraband. Basically the Find Contraband skill, only it applies to Glitter Boy parts and ammo. -25% for anything else.
4. Reputation. Similar to the Sheriff from New West
5. Command Trust/Leadership. Similar to the updated TA Undead Slayer.

I also ended up revising the skill list, adding in a few skills I felt appropriate. I think ended up with about 22 or so OCC skills. Related skill selection was tweaked a little too.

[kaid]

I have to say that most of the players I've had, when the game is set in North America, have run OCCs from first RMB and then RUE. Even when I tried to get an Underseas game running, I tried to do a game exploring the Pacific Rim in a Trident sub, when they had OCC's from Japan & Australia to choose from 4 of the 6 went to RMB OCCs. My most recent attempt to get a gaming group going with 5 players, 4 new to rifts, a few years ago I asked them to give me what they wanted in a character and I gave them a list of OCCs that they might like. Those lists always included a few OCCs from the Merc books and WBs but all 5 ran OCCs from RUE.

I think these are among the most versatile and solid OCCs in the books and they just draw players in. They are also, and I hate to use this word, generic enough where they can fit almost anywhere in the world where as a lot of the OCCs found in the WBs just aren't.

I have to disagree with some of the criticisms in here though:

I do agree that trolls can be drawn to the Crazy, and few other players are, but I have seen a few people play it well and it is a solid OCC with lots of depth and great versatility of powers and skills. It might be a little old school now but I remember when RMB came out. Of the 7 people who made characters for my original group 3 of them had crazy on there final list. I have a hard time GMing this OCC but it's still a solid OCC.

The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

While I agree that the Rogue Scientist is a better choice for S&A the Body Fixer is still great. Since the CB1 came out in 1991 people in body armor and light power armor have been taking SDC damage from big physical hits and magic/psi healing is not always available. Also, if you have a Body Fixer in your group (just like an Operator) you can be welcomed into any community. They have a lot of skills and can pilot anything including robots and power armor so they can function in combat. I have never had a player run this OCC but it would work as well as any other S&A.

The biggest issue I have with the body fixer is generally anything you would want one for can be done just as well by a cyber doc who has the addition of a lot of access to mechanical/armor/weapon repair type abilities too so they can pinch hit as healer and mechanic. Body fixers only seem to really shine if you are in a more hospital setting where they have their full bank of tools to really make use of their medical skill advantages over a cyberdoc.

[kaid]

I do agree that trolls can be drawn to the Crazy, and few other players are, but I have seen a few people play it well and it is a solid OCC with lots of depth and great versatility of powers and skills. It might be a little old school now but I remember when RMB came out. Of the 7 people who made characters for my original group 3 of them had crazy on there final list. I have a hard time GMing this OCC but it's still a solid OCC.

I like how developed the class is. I just find that, in practice, its distinctiveness causes aggravation and discord to gaming sessions, and it adds no gaming or roleplaying benefit.; its capabilities and many of its themes are redundant with juicers. I acknowledge that it's possible to play it well; I just haven't seen it done.

The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

While I agree that the Rogue Scientist is a better choice for S&A the Body Fixer is still great. Since the CB1 came out in 1991 people in body armor and light power armor have been taking SDC damage from big physical hits and magic/psi healing is not always available. Also, if you have a Body Fixer in your group (just like an Operator) you can be welcomed into any community. They have a lot of skills and can pilot anything including robots and power armor so they can function in combat. I have never had a player run this OCC but it would work as well as any other S&A.

The primary function of the class is to cure diseases and treat injuries. Diseases hardly ever come up in Rifts, and the Body Fixer is out-classed in treating injuries by healing psionics, healing magic, cybernetics, and gizmos that require no medical skill whatsoever. Body Fixers can't effectively get severely injured people back to full capability, because severe injuries tend to involve loss of limbs, paralysis, deafness, blindness, and other conditions that Body Fixers cannot fix.

I agree that there's nothing intrinsically bad about the class. I'd have no objection to a player who wants to play one, and it could actually be interesting to have a medically-focused adventure/campaign. There's a reason why people like hospital shows, after all. Rifts isn't designed for that kind of gameplay. Players generally want to play O.C.C.'s that bring something special and useful to a group. If they don't, well, that's what the Vagabond O.C.C. is for (and Vagabonds with healing psionics > body fixers at healing).

The "people are welcoming" aspect of the class can be neat from a roleplay perspective, but this isn't unique to Body Fixers. Cyber-Docs, Cyber-Knights, and Glitter Boys are also favorably viewed and often welcomed. If the party becomes well-established/famous, they may be welcomed regardless of their O.C.C.

On your points about the glitterboy that is actually one of the really interesting parts of them is that you basically at level 1 start having "won the game" you already have the biggest most bad ass power armor you are ever likely to own. Their game play is not like most people the hunt to acquire such a thing but theirs is the struggle and hardship of KEEPING what they have. Their money their resources get deeply sunk into repairing and resuppling their armor. It winds up with an interesting dynamic where they start off as billy bad ass but as they progress they wind up having to be a lot smarter and a lot more tactical in how/when/where they use their glitterboy least they get it totally wrecked.

[Axelmania]

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine?

You want to start off with a level 15 spell.

What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot?

Nothing now that they actually get some unique bonuses. Prior to RUE there wasn't really anything special about them to set them apart from someone else who takes PA:Elite for the GB suit.

Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight

Your body is impervious to energy and you can recharge e-clips using the unlimited PPE from ley lines.

Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided?

I've never heard of Bursters being avoided. Mind Melters were great but when more and more classes got access to super psi they lost some specialness. Psyscape helped a bit there by giving them some OCC bonuses.

[Father Goose]

I personally see lots of players embracing the RMB/RUE OCCs. The idea that they are avoided does not match my experience at all.

[Hotrod]

On your points about the glitterboy that is actually one of the really interesting parts of them is that you basically at level 1 start having "won the game" you already have the biggest most bad ass power armor you are ever likely to own. Their game play is not like most people the hunt to acquire such a thing but theirs is the struggle and hardship of KEEPING what they have. Their money their resources get deeply sunk into repairing and resuppling their armor. It winds up with an interesting dynamic where they start off as billy bad ass but as they progress they wind up having to be a lot smarter and a lot more tactical in how/when/where they use their glitterboy least they get it totally wrecked.

See my "Ideas about Glitter Boy Pilot Culture" thread. I was going to put it here, but I felt it merited its own thread, and I don't want to derail the discussion here.

[Warshield73]

The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

On your points about the glitterboy that is actually one of the really interesting parts of them is that you basically at level 1 start having "won the game" you already have the biggest most bad ass power armor you are ever likely to own. Their game play is not like most people the hunt to acquire such a thing but theirs is the struggle and hardship of KEEPING what they have. Their money their resources get deeply sunk into repairing and resuppling their armor. It winds up with an interesting dynamic where they start off as billy bad ass but as they progress they wind up having to be a lot smarter and a lot more tactical in how/when/where they use their glitterboy least they get it totally wrecked.

I hear this a lot from people but the GB starts as the primary target in almost every game. Not just in combat but thieves are drawn to it and even monsters due to the reputation of the GB. This results in what you pointed out in that GB pilots have to invest everything they get into keeping and maintaining there asset. They are also the only one of the base OCCs in Rue, and one of the few in all the books, that is defined by something they can loose. The only way a Cyber-knight stops being a Cyber-Knight is to die. Same with a LLW or dog boy but if you are a GB pilot and you loose your GB what are you? This makes you far more dependent on your gear than most other OCCs and can limit you in some ways.

[Riftmaker]

I have a saying for rifts Mind melters always work.

They had the smallest revamp in URE.

[Hotrod]

The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

On your points about the glitterboy that is actually one of the really interesting parts of them is that you basically at level 1 start having "won the game" you already have the biggest most bad ass power armor you are ever likely to own. Their game play is not like most people the hunt to acquire such a thing but theirs is the struggle and hardship of KEEPING what they have. Their money their resources get deeply sunk into repairing and resuppling their armor. It winds up with an interesting dynamic where they start off as billy bad ass but as they progress they wind up having to be a lot smarter and a lot more tactical in how/when/where they use their glitterboy least they get it totally wrecked.

I hear this a lot from people but the GB starts as the primary target in almost every game. Not just in combat but thieves are drawn to it and even monsters due to the reputation of the GB. This results in what you pointed out in that GB pilots have to invest everything they get into keeping and maintaining there asset. They are also the only one of the base OCCs in Rue, and one of the few in all the books, that is defined by something they can loose. The only way a Cyber-knight stops being a Cyber-Knight is to die. Same with a LLW or dog boy but if you are a GB pilot and you loose your GB what are you? This makes you far more dependent on your gear than most other OCCs and can limit you in some ways.

Agreed. This makes establishing some kind of system for repairs, maintenance, and supply all the more important, and makes the lack of focus on the pilots themselves and their way of life/support system/culture all the more troublesome.

[Axelmania]

I have a saying for rifts Mind melters always work.

They had the smallest revamp in URE.

Isn't that because Psyscape already revamped them and gave them some bonuses?

I'd argue MYSTICS had the smallest revamp because I can't seem to notice any new benefits to them compared to the awesomeness that LLWs/Shifters got.

[Shark_Force]

mind melters got demoted to 6 ISP per hour of meditation in RUE. not the best rework ever

(note: i'm fairly certain they weren't *supposed* to get demoted to the baseline ISP recovery rates, and that it was just bad editing that removed it... but that isn't as fun to point out )

[Axelmania]

In fairness to RUE, the omission of the 2/hour(activity) + 12/hour(meditation/sleep) rates from RMB112 appears to have happened on Psyscape56. The bursters still kept RMB103's (same rate as Melters) rates on Psyscape 51. So I guess you could view that removal as a reversion to the 0/hour(activity) +2/hour(sleep) + 6/hour (meditation) rates of RMB113, which RUE366 simply maintained.

One interesting semantic I noticed about 366 though... "six per hour of standard meditation, twelve or more for some psychic OCCs"

I don't know if the text "Meditation is an automatic skill/ability known to all psychics" exists in RUE anymore. Can anyone find it?

Nor the "not so much a psi-power as it is a mental discipline", because while RMB115 did not list Meditation as a power, RUE164 lists it as a minor psionic power under all 3 of the lesser categories, implying IS a psi-power now, and has to be selected under one of your slots to use it, otherwise you'd have to rely on activity (master only) or sleep rates to recover ISP.

RUE 141 could be seen as working against that theory though, since Bursters are given a rate of 12 per "hour of meditation or sleep" and Meditation is NOT listed as one of the minor psionic powers they can select from.

RUE289's "three ways" *(Step 4: Determine Psionics, formerly "How to Determine Psionics from RMB12) does not appear to be mutually exclusive, so perhaps the way to get a meditating Burster is to have them randomly roll 01-25% for extra powers and select Meditation as one of them?

Another way might be to select Meditation as a skill rather than as a lesser power. It's not listed as a skill in Rifts but I think I remember it being a skill in N&SS/Nightbane/PF or something.

[DhAkael]

* Line walkers are always a good solid stand by mage class.
* Cyberknights (with or without the anti-CS 'ZEN' crap) have the most skills at CharGen of any other base OCC.
* GB's are a pigeon-holed niche class, but an enterprising and "CREATIVE" (note that word... CREATIVE) player can do wonders with it.
* Juicers are still great for throwaway PC's, as long as you remember they get auto-dodge and better AD bonuses than Crazies.
* Robot / Power suit pilots, natch if you don't want to be beholden to the 'murrican Nazi's (CS)or the German Republicans.
* Full conversion borgs (now that they have given them full Robot PS...Finally...) are also a no brainer.
* Rogue Shcolars actually have BETTER science skills than the RS, go figure...

So yeah, there are a few base PC classes that actually work. Heck, I had someone play a Vagabond who helped stave off an Infernal siege on a badly compromised base...and live.

I guess among the veteran players, it is "been there, done that." While NEWBS just wanna wanna min-max and play the baddest mutha's on the block (I tend to stomp those players down hard with "They are listed as optional...and I do not have them as an option. At least until you've proven you can ROLE play as opposed to Roll-Play."

But there is still love for the baseline OCC's; just have to have players and a GM willing to give'em a chance.

[Shark_Force]

vagabonds get soap and candy. buffing them would make them OP!

[HWalsh]

* Line walkers are always a good solid stand by mage class.
* Cyberknights (with or without the anti-CS 'ZEN' crap) have the most skills at CharGen of any other base OCC.
* GB's are a pigeon-holed niche class, but an enterprising and "CREATIVE" (note that word... CREATIVE) player can do wonders with it.
* Juicers are still great for throwaway PC's, as long as you remember they get auto-dodge and better AD bonuses than Crazies.
* Robot / Power suit pilots, natch if you don't want to be beholden to the 'murrican Nazi's (CS)or the German Republicans.
* Full conversion borgs (now that they have given them full Robot PS...Finally...) are also a no brainer.
* Rogue Shcolars actually have BETTER science skills than the RS, go figure...

So yeah, there are a few base PC classes that actually work. Heck, I had someone play a Vagabond who helped stave off an Infernal siege on a badly compromised base...and live.

I guess among the veteran players, it is "been there, done that." While NEWBS just wanna wanna min-max and play the baddest mutha's on the block (I tend to stomp those players down hard with "They are listed as optional...and I do not have them as an option. At least until you've proven you can ROLE play as opposed to Roll-Play."

But there is still love for the baseline OCC's; just have to have players and a GM willing to give'em a chance.

Why are Juicers "throwaway" to you? True they die in about 5 years, but most games don't even go on for 5 years. Heck, if you start at 101 PA the earliest start time for Rifts games (usually) then we are only at 110 PA. I mean, usually games start at post 108 PA.

I *like* personally that the CK's are there to check the CS, the CS needs things to check them. They need foes that are able to counter them because the CS has pretty much infinite troops, infinite resources, and infinite everything as it is. One groups gives them one thing that gives them an advantage usually against one opponent in a combat and everyone loses their minds.

[Axelmania]

Vagabonds got "eyeball a fella" though, further bloat after CB1 gave them the bonus minor super ability.

Who started that meme about vagabonds being the only people in possession of soap/candy and those 2 things being a valuable scarcity? I remember reading years ago, was hilarious.

[Warshield73]

* GB's are a pigeon-holed niche class, but an enterprising and "CREATIVE" (note that word... CREATIVE) player can do wonders with it.

It doesn't take a lot of creativity. They have very few skill limitations with great bonuses to select military and espionage skills so they can be a top line soldier in any player group.

* Rogue Shcolars actually have BETTER science skills than the RS, go figure...

What do you mean here? The Rogue Scholar has no science as OCC skills and +10% to related. Rogue Scientist has both Math +30% and all other Science at +20%. So not sure how Scholar is better than scientists at science.

[kaid]

* Line walkers are always a good solid stand by mage class.
* Cyberknights (with or without the anti-CS 'ZEN' crap) have the most skills at CharGen of any other base OCC.
* GB's are a pigeon-holed niche class, but an enterprising and "CREATIVE" (note that word... CREATIVE) player can do wonders with it.
* Juicers are still great for throwaway PC's, as long as you remember they get auto-dodge and better AD bonuses than Crazies.
* Robot / Power suit pilots, natch if you don't want to be beholden to the 'murrican Nazi's (CS)or the German Republicans.
* Full conversion borgs (now that they have given them full Robot PS...Finally...) are also a no brainer.
* Rogue Shcolars actually have BETTER science skills than the RS, go figure...

So yeah, there are a few base PC classes that actually work. Heck, I had someone play a Vagabond who helped stave off an Infernal siege on a badly compromised base...and live.

I guess among the veteran players, it is "been there, done that." While NEWBS just wanna wanna min-max and play the baddest mutha's on the block (I tend to stomp those players down hard with "They are listed as optional...and I do not have them as an option. At least until you've proven you can ROLE play as opposed to Roll-Play."



But there is still love for the baseline OCC's; just have to have players and a GM willing to give'em a chance.

Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

[Hotrod]

Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

[Warshield73]

Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

I use a full con borg as an adversary in a lot of my con games. A few years ago the players took out every other merc in the band except the borg. The borg had so much MDC that the mage just hit him with carpet of adhesion and they ran away from him, which I had to admit saved a lot of time.

[kaid]

Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

I use a full con borg as an adversary in a lot of my con games. A few years ago the players took out every other merc in the band except the borg. The borg had so much MDC that the mage just hit him with carpet of adhesion and they ran away from him, which I had to admit saved a lot of time.

Hehe better hope that lasts long enough. Even the slowest of combat cyborgs are still pretty damn quick.

[dreicunan]

Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

I use a full con borg as an adversary in a lot of my con games. A few years ago the players took out every other merc in the band except the borg. The borg had so much MDC that the mage just hit him with carpet of adhesion and they ran away from him, which I had to admit saved a lot of time.

Hehe better hope that lasts long enough. Even the slowest of combat cyborgs are still pretty damn quick.

Indeed, that is another thing that I've noticed many people forget about Combat Cyborgs - not only are they massive hunks of machinery that can take a pounding, they are also often quite agile (minimum PP of 18, only 32,000 credits to upgrade that to the max of 26 for the arms (legs are only max 24, so your kicks won't be quite as accurate as your punches...and I've got a different post to make now) and can keep up with, if not outrun, many vehicles (minimum speed of 132/90mph)!

[kaid]

Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

I use a full con borg as an adversary in a lot of my con games. A few years ago the players took out every other merc in the band except the borg. The borg had so much MDC that the mage just hit him with carpet of adhesion and they ran away from him, which I had to admit saved a lot of time.

Hehe better hope that lasts long enough. Even the slowest of combat cyborgs are still pretty damn quick.

Indeed, that is another thing that I've noticed many people forget about Combat Cyborgs - not only are they massive hunks of machinery that can take a pounding, they are also often quite agile (minimum PP of 18, only 32,000 credits to upgrade that to the max of 26 for the arms (legs are only max 24, so your kicks won't be quite as accurate as your punches...and I've got a different post to make now) and can keep up with, if not outrun, many vehicles (minimum speed of 132/90mph)!

Even the most tanked out heavy cyborgs loaded down with the heaviest armor are still running at 60+ MPH depending on their load out. The slowest cyborg is as fast as most ground power armor.

[Hotrod]

One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

[kaid]

One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

I honestly like the savage rifts take on them a bit better than the RUE varient. Where they are almost more like splicer technojackers where their anti tech powers are nanite driven. So their living cyberarmor is nanite driven not some weird technomagical cybernetic thing.

[Hotrod]

One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

I honestly like the savage rifts take on them a bit better than the RUE varient. Where they are almost more like splicer technojackers where their anti tech powers are nanite driven. So their living cyberarmor is nanite driven not some weird technomagical cybernetic thing.

I do as well, though I should mention that I'm not against CKs having some anti-tech capabilities. If I were redesigning the class, I'd give them anti-tech abilities as one optional specialization branch, to which I'd add an anti-supernatural specialization branch and one or two others (psi-sword abilities, cyber-armor upgrades, possibly others).

[kaid]

One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

I honestly like the savage rifts take on them a bit better than the RUE varient. Where they are almost more like splicer technojackers where their anti tech powers are nanite driven. So their living cyberarmor is nanite driven not some weird technomagical cybernetic thing.

I do as well, though I should mention that I'm not against CKs having some anti-tech capabilities. If I were redesigning the class, I'd give them anti-tech abilities as one optional specialization branch, to which I'd add an anti-supernatural specialization branch and one or two others (psi-sword abilities, cyber-armor upgrades, possibly others).

The rifter update of the technojacker for splicers is an excellent template for a highly specialized anti tech warrior that hits most of the points of a cyber knight other than psionics.

[Curbludgeon]

Prysus' deal weren't half bad.

[Hotrod]

One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

I honestly like the savage rifts take on them a bit better than the RUE varient. Where they are almost more like splicer technojackers where their anti tech powers are nanite driven. So their living cyberarmor is nanite driven not some weird technomagical cybernetic thing.

I do as well, though I should mention that I'm not against CKs having some anti-tech capabilities. If I were redesigning the class, I'd give them anti-tech abilities as one optional specialization branch, to which I'd add an anti-supernatural specialization branch and one or two others (psi-sword abilities, cyber-armor upgrades, possibly others).

The rifter update of the technojacker for splicers is an excellent template for a highly specialized anti tech warrior that hits most of the points of a cyber knight other than psionics.

That's cool too. I just don't think that Cyber-Knights should be uniformly anti-tech as presented. Having a faction of them that chose to specialize that way so they could fight the Coalition with Tolkeen is fine with me, but having them all go that way just seems wrong to me on a great many levels.

[Axelmania]

Coake hates tech and the CS, unsurprising focus IMO from a D-Bee invention.

[Hotrod]

Coake hates tech and the CS, unsurprising focus IMO from a D-Bee invention.

I don't think SoT4 supports that position. Per his N.P.C. description, he likes particle beam rifles of any type, Wilk's Laser Rifles, Vibro blades (??) and the Neural Mace. As for his stance on the Coalition, he didn't choose to fight with Tolkeen against them, and Coake himself led the effort to rescue Lady Prosek from Alistair Dunscon.

[HWalsh]

Coake hates tech and the CS, unsurprising focus IMO from a D-Bee invention.

I don't think SoT4 supports that position. Per his N.P.C. description, he likes particle beam rifles of any type, Wilk's Laser Rifles, Vibro blades (??) and the Neural Mace. As for his stance on the Coalition, he didn't choose to fight with Tolkeen against them, and Coake himself led the effort to rescue Lady Prosek from Alistair Dunscon.

Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would. Coake is among the most compassionate and good in Rifts. They're diametrically opposed.

The only reason he didn't jump in on Tolkeen's side was his belief that the Cyber-Knight order must remain politically neutral.

[Killer Cyborg]

This just strikes me as odd...

There are some truly great base OCCs in Rifts, yet even new players seem to hate them. I don't see why.

I've been playing Rifts since like 1997. I guess I got all the funkiness out of my system. I don't know.

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine? What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot? Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight, or maybe s True Atlantean Undead Slayer (albeit that isn't a base class, but I've only been in 3 games in 22 years that didn't have one). Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided? Even a Vagabond can be s blast.

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

It all comes down to perceptions of relative power levels and commonness within the game.
In early Rifts, even though the classes were never statted out or described, a shopkeep would often be "OCC: Shopkeep" or something.
The Adventuring OCCs were for adventurers, not for ordinary people.
But over time that changed, and every shopkeep was a Headhunter or Mage or Rogue Scholar. It's part of the power creep of the setting.
While the original OCCs started off as being specifically ABOVE the average power level, they effectively became the average power level over time.
That's part of the deal.

The rest?
Well, players simultaneously want the illusion of challenge AND the illusion of power, but they don't see that these are often competitors.
They'll seek out characters that they perceive as being more powerful than the normal, because they demand enemies that are at least as powerful as what they perceive as normal.
When really, a RMB Vagabond IS a good character, and is pretty darned tough even with his starting gear... against the right opponents. MDC-clad professional soldiers are not the right opponents, not with starting gear, not in most situations.
Same with Rogue Scholars and such.

Beyond all that, people like New and Shiny.

[Shark_Force]

Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would. Coake is among the most compassionate and good in Rifts. They're diametrically opposed.

The only reason he didn't jump in on Tolkeen's side was his belief that the Cyber-Knight order must remain politically neutral.

eh, he was probably at least as strongly opposed on the basis that tolkeen were also dumb enough to ally with demons, and it is blindingly obvious to anyone that isn't monumentally stupid that such an alliance was going to lead to a battle between two groups, neither of which are actually good. probably more so, really... he has no rules that the cyber-knights must not oppose the CS. in fact, they probably clash fairly often. but that doesn't mean he's in favour of doing everything and anything against the CS no matter how evil it is.

[HWalsh]

Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would. Coake is among the most compassionate and good in Rifts. They're diametrically opposed.

The only reason he didn't jump in on Tolkeen's side was his belief that the Cyber-Knight order must remain politically neutral.

eh, he was probably at least as strongly opposed on the basis that tolkeen were also dumb enough to ally with demons, and it is blindingly obvious to anyone that isn't monumentally stupid that such an alliance was going to lead to a battle between two groups, neither of which are actually good. probably more so, really... he has no rules that the cyber-knights must not oppose the CS. in fact, they probably clash fairly often. but that doesn't mean he's in favour of doing everything and anything against the CS no matter how evil it is.

SoT4 outright said the CKs stayed out because Coake didn't want the order at a whole to be political.

So while individual Knights fight the CS, the ORDER officially doesn't.

[Hotrod]

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.

[Killer Cyborg]

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/genocide
The word "genocide" was coined in 1943 by Polish-Jewish legal scholar Raphael Lemkin (1900–1959) referring to the Armenian Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust.[1][2][3][4] From the stem of Ancient Greek γένος (génos, “race, kind”) or Latin gēns (“tribe, clan”) (as in genus), +‎ -cide (“killing, killer”).

I don't see a problem with looking at other species--especially the way Palladim uses the term "race" in game context--goes against the definition or origin.

The term "xenocide," meanwhile, already exists and has three definitions (again, in Wiktionary)
1. The killing of a stranger or foreigner.
2. (science fiction) The genocide of an entire alien species.
3. (US, colloquial) The intentional killing of an entire foreign (plant or animal) species.

The second use fits how you mean it, but note that it IS a subcategory of Genocide, not an entirely different sort of thing.