No Love For Base Classes...

[HWalsh]

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.

They are indoctrinated at a very young age, and kept ignorant due to poor education to believe that all Deebees are a threat and need to be wiped out. This is the incredible majority of CS citizens. Voicing an opposing viewpoint can get you imprisoned or executed. So either they believe it, or they're not willing to stand against it, either way that makes them complicit.

[Killer Cyborg]

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.

They are indoctrinated at a very young age, and kept ignorant due to poor education to believe that all Deebees are a threat and need to be wiped out. This is the incredible majority of CS citizens. Voicing an opposing viewpoint can get you imprisoned or executed. So either they believe it, or they're not willing to stand against it, either way that makes them complicit.

One possibly objection:
A lot of D-Bees aren't willing to stand against it either, and live under CS rule.
Were they also complicit in genocide?

[Curbludgeon]

Speciocide is probably the most accurate word for the systematic eradication of a species. One could argue eidocide would also apply, with the spelling of such being somewhat in flux. Genocide really only applies to a given people or "race", while xenocide necessarily defines the species in question as foreign. which wouldn't be a useful distinction in the abstract. An activist opposed to the eradication of their own species wouldn't use xenocide, for example. Additionally, sapience is a more useful criterion than sentience for this purpose. Cats and dogs are sentient, while great apes, cetaceans, and elephants are better described as sapient in addition to sentient.

[Shark_Force]

genocide also applies to cultures. there are plenty of human cultures that the CS either would like to wipe out, are attempting to wipe out, or have already wiped out. so whether you want to get all technical about precisely how the wholesale murder of non-humans purely on the basis of them being non-human or not should be defined, the CS is totally into genocide.

[Hotrod]

Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

The CS is certainly big, and they're certainly bad. I'm not sure if a "the big bad" paradigm fits them all that well, though, considering that North America is also the site of:

1. Vampire kingdoms who treat people as cattle. Also, their intelligences.
2. Xiticix that are far more territorial and hostile to other sentient life forms than the Coalition.
3. Much of the Splugorth's favorite slave-catching grounds
4. The Federation of Magic (where skulls aren't just a symbol, especially in SoulHarvest)
5. The Mechanoid Invasion
6. Two simultaneous invasions from Hell.
7. ARCHIE 3.
8. The Pecos Empire, a loose collection of bandit gangs.
9. Permanent rifts where more crazy threats can and do emerge on an ongoing basis.

Can the lesser of ~10 evils be still "the big bad?" I've certainly played the CS that way both as a player and a GM, and Coalition soldiers and cops can make great villains. I'm just not sure that I'd put them in the same category as Sauron/Voldemort/Palpatine.

[eliakon]

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

"The average CS citizen is militant and cold-hearted when it comes to the protection of their race, nation and lifestyle. They have allowed themselves to be convinced that all D-bees and aliens are evil monsters who threaten their existence."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.

And you would be wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions
I will just hit the high points here

The person who coined the term said this

"By "genocide" we mean the destruction of an ethnic group…. Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups…. "

The first court case for the crime of Genocide stated

"They (the defendants) conducted deliberate and systematic genocide—viz., the extermination of racial and national groups—against the civilian populations of certain occupied territories in order to destroy particular races and classes of people, and national, racial or religious groups, particularly Jews, Poles, Gypsies and others."

And most tellingly...
quite literally the international, legal definition of the word,

"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)"

I feel safe in saying that if
The person who coined the term
The first court case involving the crime.
AND
The international, legal definition of the word
As well as multiple other scholars and sources
ALL disagree with you... that you are wrong.

I get that people want to argue that the CS is not engaged in Genocide but something else.
But they are quite literally fulfilling every single charge of the CPPCG.
The CS is engaged in Genocide.
Full Stop.

[eliakon]

Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

The CS is certainly big, and they're certainly bad. I'm not sure if a "the big bad" paradigm fits them all that well, though, considering that North America is also the site of:

1. Vampire kingdoms who treat people as cattle. Also, their intelligences.
2. Xiticix that are far more territorial and hostile to other sentient life forms than the Coalition.
3. Much of the Splugorth's favorite slave-catching grounds
4. The Federation of Magic (where skulls aren't just a symbol, especially in SoulHarvest)
5. The Mechanoid Invasion
6. Two simultaneous invasions from Hell.
7. ARCHIE 3.
8. The Pecos Empire, a loose collection of bandit gangs.
9. Permanent rifts where more crazy threats can and do emerge on an ongoing basis.

Can the lesser of ~10 evils be still "the big bad?" I've certainly played the CS that way both as a player and a GM, and Coalition soldiers and cops can make great villains. I'm just not sure that I'd put them in the same category as Sauron/Voldemort/Palpatine.

I am sorry but trying to claim that the Nazi Empire isn't a problem because there are some other problems is pretty much a joke. at best.
#3, #9 would excuse ANYTHING (and is an example of whataboitisim as well)
Bonus points for #9 that so far the worst things from the Rifts have been... a few gods and AIs. The CS follows the pattern of most of the evil empires are homegrown evil.

#5 is OVER. Everyone agreed that they were bad and stomped them

#6 is a joke The forces there have no idea what they are doing and as has been pointed out in many threads basically this is just another "ho hum yet another generic problem" and not an end of the world event.

#7 is a joke Archie as "master evil" is beyond laughable. The best he can do right now is run a business and play god to some robotic warrior chicks. He is not a threat to North America.

#8 is, just that a loose collection of bandits not a unified nation of genocide

#4 is another loose collection of people... it would be like saying "the Nazis are not bad because if we add up all the atrocities of ALL the colonial countries they might collectively equal them"

That leaves just #1 and #2
And you know what...
NO ONE tries to white wash the Vampires and claim they are good, or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
NO ONE tries to white wash the Xictic and claim they are good or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
But a group of genocidal fanatics, who run around in black, wear skulls and were explicitly based on the Nazis... are just "misunderstood"

[Hotrod]

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

"The average CS citizen is militant and cold-hearted when it comes to the protection of their race, nation and lifestyle. They have allowed themselves to be convinced that all D-bees and aliens are evil monsters who threaten their existence."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.

And you would be wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions
I will just hit the high points here

The person who coined the term said this

"By "genocide" we mean the destruction of an ethnic group…. Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups…. "

The first court case for the crime of Genocide stated

"They (the defendants) conducted deliberate and systematic genocide—viz., the extermination of racial and national groups—against the civilian populations of certain occupied territories in order to destroy particular races and classes of people, and national, racial or religious groups, particularly Jews, Poles, Gypsies and others."

And most tellingly...
quite literally the international, legal definition of the word,

"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)"

I feel safe in saying that if
The person who coined the term
The first court case involving the crime.
AND
The international, legal definition of the word
As well as multiple other scholars and sources
ALL disagree with you... that you are wrong.

I get that people want to argue that the CS is not engaged in Genocide but something else.
But they are quite literally fulfilling every single charge of the CPPCG.
The CS is engaged in Genocide.
Full Stop.

All of those quotes refer to groups of human beings and were not given in the context of members of other species being considered people. Kudos on the quote research, though. As I said, it's a semantic point that doesn't make much of a difference morality-wise unless you consider non-human people to be less than human people (I don't... mostly. There are some seriously nasty non-human entities that I would consider to be of far less worth in Rifts: Vampires and intelligent supernatural predators/demons/dyvals, for example)

[Hotrod]

Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

The CS is certainly big, and they're certainly bad. I'm not sure if a "the big bad" paradigm fits them all that well, though, considering that North America is also the site of:

1. Vampire kingdoms who treat people as cattle. Also, their intelligences.
2. Xiticix that are far more territorial and hostile to other sentient life forms than the Coalition.
3. Much of the Splugorth's favorite slave-catching grounds
4. The Federation of Magic (where skulls aren't just a symbol, especially in SoulHarvest)
5. The Mechanoid Invasion
6. Two simultaneous invasions from Hell.
7. ARCHIE 3.
8. The Pecos Empire, a loose collection of bandit gangs.
9. Permanent rifts where more crazy threats can and do emerge on an ongoing basis.

Can the lesser of ~10 evils be still "the big bad?" I've certainly played the CS that way both as a player and a GM, and Coalition soldiers and cops can make great villains. I'm just not sure that I'd put them in the same category as Sauron/Voldemort/Palpatine.

I am sorry but trying to claim that the Nazi Empire isn't a problem because there are some other problems is pretty much a joke. at best.

(snipping out good, but irrelevant points)

NO ONE tries to white wash the Vampires and claim they are good, or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
NO ONE tries to white wash the Xictic and claim they are good or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
But a group of genocidal fanatics, who run around in black, wear skulls and were explicitly based on the Nazis... are just "misunderstood"
:help:

Read the bolded part above. I'm not white washing anything. The CS is big and bad. They are a problem. I'm saying that there are bad guys aplenty in North America and presenting the CS as "the" villains of the setting doesn't seem to fit the setting as presented. Whether they seem better or worse than any of the other threats I mentioned depends greatly upon one's point of view. Thus, implying that they are some kind of monolithic epitome of all that is evil in the setting doesn't seem valid to me.

[Killer Cyborg]

One of the things that I've always loved about the Rifts setting was that PCs are basically put into a situation where Nazis are on one side,
Demons are on the other,
and the PCs have to either pick a side, or go it alone caught between those two forces.

It's not exactly a no-win situation, but it's certainly hard to stay morally pure.

[Killer Cyborg]

genocide also applies to cultures. there are plenty of human cultures that the CS either would like to wipe out, are attempting to wipe out, or have already wiped out. so whether you want to get all technical about precisely how the wholesale murder of non-humans purely on the basis of them being non-human or not should be defined, the CS is totally into genocide.

Totally, I agree.
It's not un-understandable, and it's not without reason, but there's NO way they're NOT genocidal.
They want to exterminate or chase every non-human sapient species off the face of the planet (except maybe slave races like Dog Boys), and that's definitely genocide.

[eliakon]

Spoiler:

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

"The average CS citizen is militant and cold-hearted when it comes to the protection of their race, nation and lifestyle. They have allowed themselves to be convinced that all D-bees and aliens are evil monsters who threaten their existence."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.

And you would be wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions
I will just hit the high points here

The person who coined the term said this

"By "genocide" we mean the destruction of an ethnic group…. Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups…. "

The first court case for the crime of Genocide stated

"They (the defendants) conducted deliberate and systematic genocide—viz., the extermination of racial and national groups—against the civilian populations of certain occupied territories in order to destroy particular races and classes of people, and national, racial or religious groups, particularly Jews, Poles, Gypsies and others."

And most tellingly...
quite literally the international, legal definition of the word,

"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)"

I feel safe in saying that if
The person who coined the term
The first court case involving the crime.
AND
The international, legal definition of the word
As well as multiple other scholars and sources
ALL disagree with you... that you are wrong.

I get that people want to argue that the CS is not engaged in Genocide but something else.
But they are quite literally fulfilling every single charge of the CPPCG.
The CS is engaged in Genocide.
Full Stop.

All of those quotes refer to groups of human beings and were not given in the context of members of other species being considered people.

[Shark_Force]

Read the bolded part above. I'm not white washing anything. The CS is big and bad. They are a problem. I'm saying that there are bad guys aplenty in North America and presenting the CS as "the" villains of the setting doesn't seem to fit the setting as presented. Whether they seem better or worse than any of the other threats I mentioned depends greatly upon one's point of view. Thus, implying that they are some kind of monolithic epitome of all that is evil in the setting doesn't seem valid to me.

eh, i dunno about that. i mean, they're not literally *all* that is evil in the setting, but they're quite evil. and if they aren't the most evil thing in north america, they are still in all probability the bigger threat... like, the demonic invasion forces are definitely more evil, but they're not a legitimate threat. the federation of magic isn't honestly even a group, so much as several groups that live in one area, most of which are not particularly evil (but admittedly some parts are probably more evil than the CS, but again... not exactly a major threat as presented). the same can be said for others in that list; the splugorth certainly could be the big bad of the setting, but they're only sending raiding parties out. they're not really threatening north america. or the world. they're pretty content controlling a small area and running an interdimensional market. and there are a few that i'm frankly not certain are more evil than the CS to begin with. like ARCHIE. he would like to control things, but so far as i'm aware he isn't up for murdering everyone that disagrees with him, nor is he into wholesale murder of everything not native to the planet. and the pecos empire, again, not sold on them being particularly worse than the CS. not necessarily better, but the fact is, the CS is also sending their soldiers in to attack places and steal all their stuff, enslaving people, are probably guilty of torture, and are on the whole probably guilty of far more evil deeds than the pecos empire, if only because they are bigger, have better equipment, and are better organized.

One of the things that I've always loved about the Rifts setting was that PCs are basically put into a situation where Nazis are on one side,
Demons are on the other,
and the PCs have to either pick a side, or go it alone caught between those two forces.

It's not exactly a no-win situation, but it's certainly hard to stay morally pure.

i mean, are they really? there are plenty of sides that are neither demons nor nazis. you can side against both of those groups and still have plenty of friends and allies. you're not necessarily going to stay morally pure either way, but you can certainly avoid those particular moral stains easily enough as a PC.

[eliakon]

One of the things that I've always loved about the Rifts setting was that PCs are basically put into a situation where Nazis are on one side,
Demons are on the other,
and the PCs have to either pick a side, or go it alone caught between those two forces.

It's not exactly a no-win situation, but it's certainly hard to stay morally pure.

i mean, are they really? there are plenty of sides that are neither demons nor nazis. you can side against both of those groups and still have plenty of friends and allies. you're not necessarily going to stay morally pure either way, but you can certainly avoid those particular moral stains easily enough as a PC.

I guess
Lazlo
New Lazlo
Arzno
Lemuria
The New Japan Empire
The New German Republic (questionable)
The New Republic
The Sovietski
Whale Singers
Millenium Druids
Tritonia
The New Navy
Camalot (secret evil literally no one knows about isn't really something you can blame on the people who don't know)
Tarnow (ditto)
Native Americans
The Empire of the Sun
Manoa
True Atlantians
...and the rest don't exist in their games?

[Father Goose]

This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

[Hotrod]

I will not sit by and let people try justify genocide by making false claims.

Relax. No-one here has said that genocide is ok. If you can point out anywhere in this or indeed any conversation in which I've said that genocide or xenocide or whatever you want to call the CS conducting mass killings of innocent people is in any way morally ok, I am happy to retract it.

Second, even if they didn't (which they totally do and this is stated in canon so there is no way to argue it)
the definitions of the crime do not say "Human races" "human cultures" "Human religions"
They state "races" "cultures" "Religions" no qualifiers. They do not need a context that says "but if we find other species you can tots wipe them out no prob because they don't count.
So once again you are flat out wrong.

I get that some people want to desperately defend the Nazis CS even if I don't understand it.

Real-life laws and language reflect our reality and history, neither of which include interacting with other species that we recognize as sentient people. I get that you don't think that matters. If a bunch of intelligent aliens revealed themselves tomorrow in real-life, I think there would be a lot of questions and debate over how to categorize them and what sorts of rights they might have.

Also, enough with "some people" and other such weasel words. If you think I'm some kind of Nazi or Nazi defender, please say so. If you don't, then please stop conflating me with them. You and I have conversed civilly on these boards for years, and I don't think it's too much to ask that you not take me mentioning other threats to mean that I think Nazi-like policies of mass murder are in any way morally justifiable. I'm not in the habit of having to re-affirm that genocide, despotism, and banning literacy is wrong every time the topic of the CS's status as villain or valid playable faction comes up.

Kudos on the quote research, though. As I said, it's a semantic point that doesn't make much of a difference morality-wise unless you consider non-human people to be less than human people (I don't... mostly. There are some seriously nasty non-human entities that I would consider to be of far less worth in Rifts: Vampires and intelligent supernatural predators/demons/dyvals, for example)

No it is NOT just a semantic point and it DOES matter morally.
It is important because the false claim that the "The CS does not engage in Genocide" is used as a defense of the CS by revisionists and apologists.
The fact of the matter is that the CS does engage in genocide. They may ALSO engage in what you want to call other things too...
It also allows for justifications of the CS actions to D-bees and other atrocities.
I will not sit by and let this go uncorrected.

EDIT: Also this is no longer on base classes, but the perennial defense of the CS and the perennial attempt to redefine Genocide. I suggest that as this is totally off topic that the entire sub-thread be moved to its own thread or simply dropped

[/quote]

Mass murder of people who aren't a threat is what I find morally objectionable. Genocide is objectionable to me not because of the strictures of its definitions but by the scale of innocent death that generally comes with it. A specific killer's political motivations matter less to me than the amount of helpless and innocent people who suffer and die at that killer's hands. Thus, to me, discussion over which term better fits CS policies is a semantic point that makes no moral difference to me.

As for my bringing up that my semantic point is similar to that of revisionists and apologists, what's with the "guilt by association" attack? I have neither revised canon nor said that the CS's Nazi-like approach is morally ok. Please stop implying otherwise.

[Hotrod]

This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

[eliakon]

I will not sit by and let people try justify genocide by making false claims.

Relax. No-one here has said that genocide is ok. If you can point out anywhere in this or indeed any conversation in which I've said that genocide or xenocide or whatever you want to call the CS conducting mass killings of innocent people is in any way morally ok, I am happy to retract it.

Your entire argument here is an apology to CS genocide by trying to remove the stigma of what we in our world would call 'The most monstrous of crimes' from its perpetrators.
So right there that looks to me like you are saying that genocide is okay as long as the CS is doing it! Because I am having a hard time understanding any other reason for your defense of the CS and its genocide here.

Second, even if they didn't (which they totally do and this is stated in canon so there is no way to argue it)
the definitions of the crime do not say "Human races" "human cultures" "Human religions"
They state "races" "cultures" "Religions" no qualifiers. They do not need a context that says "but if we find other species you can tots wipe them out no prob because they don't count.
So once again you are flat out wrong.

I get that some people want to desperately defend the Nazis CS even if I don't understand it.

Real-life laws and language reflect our reality and history, neither of which include interacting with other species that we recognize as sentient people. I get that you don't think that matters. If a bunch of intelligent aliens revealed themselves tomorrow in real-life, I think there would be a lot of questions and debate over how to categorize them and what sorts of rights they might have.

First
That is not for you to decide though.
YOU to do not get to decide that international law would never classify them as people.
Ever
In the history of mankind.
And that is what you are doing.
When slavery was legal slaves were not defined as people so killing one wasn't murder. It was destruction of property.
Then they outlawed slavery and killing them became murder.
The law on murder never changed.
The definition of murder was always "The killing of a person" the definition of what a person was simply changed around that. So your claim that you are allowed to unilaterally declare all sentient/sapient beings in the megaverse that are not anti-magical atheistic humans are not people strikes me as hollow.
Because that is quite literally what you are doing.
The ONLY way for you to argue that this is not genocide is to declare
That the humans of Tolkeen are not people
That mages are not people
That humans from other dimensions are not people
That no sentient D-Bee is a person
That mutants are not people
Would you like me to go on?
Oh and that not only are they not people, but that no one will ever recognize them as people. Thus no one will ever be in a position to hold the CS to account.
Your stance is not just absurd. It is flat out wrong and trying to use legal sophistry to twist words to mean one thing while saying another all the time hiding that your premise relies on the claim that CS Ideology is 100% correct.

SECOND
You are trying to get around the definition by weasel wording here.
You are claiming that "culture" doesn't really exist for anyone that is not the CS?
Because the definition of Genocide as described in every listed example do NOT say that it has to be human culture. In fact they quite specifically say "Any other culture"

THIRD
As myself and others have pointed out you side step the uncomfortable fact that the CS exterminates Human cultures and Human religions and Human societies too.
So even IF we grant you your desire and rule that only humans count.
EVEN IF
The CS are STILL evil genocidal Nazis.

Also, enough with "some people" and other such weasel words. If you think I'm some kind of Nazi or Nazi defender, please say so. If you don't, then please stop conflating me with them. You and I have conversed civilly on these boards for years, and I don't think it's too much to ask that you not take me mentioning other threats to mean that I think Nazi-like policies of mass murder are in any way morally justifiable. I'm not in the habit of having to re-affirm that genocide, despotism, and banning literacy is wrong every time the topic of the CS's status as villain or valid playable faction comes up.

I won't quibble here.
I do not play favorites on the genocide question and I do not care who is the person making the argument de jure.
I will go after each and every instance with the same facts and vigor one by one.
And in this case the issue is that the CS flat out commits genocide and that you and others do not wish for them to bear the stigma of their own actions.
That is utterly unacceptable to me.

Kudos on the quote research, though. As I said, it's a semantic point that doesn't make much of a difference morality-wise unless you consider non-human people to be less than human people (I don't... mostly. There are some seriously nasty non-human entities that I would consider to be of far less worth in Rifts: Vampires and intelligent supernatural predators/demons/dyvals, for example)

No it is NOT just a semantic point and it DOES matter morally.
It is important because the false claim that the "The CS does not engage in Genocide" is used as a defense of the CS by revisionists and apologists.
The fact of the matter is that the CS does engage in genocide. They may ALSO engage in what you want to call other things too...
It also allows for justifications of the CS actions to D-bees and other atrocities.
I will not sit by and let this go uncorrected.

EDIT: Also this is no longer on base classes, but the perennial defense of the CS and the perennial attempt to redefine Genocide. I suggest that as this is totally off topic that the entire sub-thread be moved to its own thread or simply dropped

Mass murder of people who aren't a threat is what I find morally objectionable. Genocide is objectionable to me not because of the strictures of its definitions but by the scale of innocent death that generally comes with it. A specific killer's political motivations matter less to me than the amount of helpless and innocent people who suffer and die at that killer's hands. Thus, to me, discussion over which term better fits CS policies is a semantic point that makes no moral difference to me.

Then you do not understand what the crime of genocide is.
No seriously you don't
Genocide is not just "Count up the number of deaths and charge them with that many murders"
It is far more than that.
If you just look at it that way then you will never see the point nor horror of the crime.
Genocide is the premeditated destruction not of just lives but of entire societies. It doesn't matter if you have to kill 100 people or 100,000 or 100,000,000 people to do it.
Put another way... the murder of all the people of a small faith or language is shocking beyond the body count.
It is the sheer evil of the desire to wipe out other views, other cultures, entire other religions, races, and groups from existance.
THAT is part of the crime of genocide.
And that is why it is called genocide and not "really mass murder"

As for my bringing up that my semantic point is similar to that of revisionists and apologists, what's with the "guilt by association" attack? I have neither revised canon nor said that the CS's Nazi-like approach is morally ok. Please stop implying otherwise.

Because it IS revisionism
The CS commits genocide. No ifs, no ands, no buts.
I can provide book citations (Hello the Human nation of Tolkeen)
You then claim "No the CS does not commit genocide (with an implied "but some other lesser crime" since genocide is considered the worst most monstrous crime in our world) we should not use that word"
That is trying to rewrite the past actions in a better light. That is quite literally the definition of revisionism and apologisim

[Father Goose]

This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

I have not, but I think that is because they are written to shine in a a stationary urban game and I have yet to play in such a game. I very much like the City Rat, but until I have the chance to play in an all urban campaign, I doubt I will see reason to play one. On the flip side, if I only ever played in all urban games, I would see no reason to play a Wilderness Scout. In fact, even the Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist lose some of their punch in a fixed location game. Each OCC has their area in which to shine.

[Hotrod]

Eliakon,

Questioning whether "genocide" is the best word to apply to an atrocity does not mean that I condone the atrocity.
Questioning whether "genocide" is the best word to apply to an atrocity does not mean that I condone genocide.

Your repeated insinuations to the contrary are rude and illogical. We no longer have a basis for polite conversation on this topic.

That's a real shame, and I hope this won't spread into other topics we discuss.

Good day.

[HWalsh]

This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

I have not, but I think that is because they are written to shine in a a stationary urban game and I have yet to play in such a game. I very much like the City Rat, but until I have the chance to play in an all urban campaign, I doubt I will see reason to play one. On the flip side, if I only ever played in all urban games, I would see no reason to play a Wilderness Scout. In fact, even the Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist lose some of their punch in a fixed location game. Each OCC has their area in which to shine.

I have never seen a City Rat played. Like. Anywhere.

[Hotrod]

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

I have not, but I think that is because they are written to shine in a a stationary urban game and I have yet to play in such a game. I very much like the City Rat, but until I have the chance to play in an all urban campaign, I doubt I will see reason to play one. On the flip side, if I only ever played in all urban games, I would see no reason to play a Wilderness Scout. In fact, even the Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist lose some of their punch in a fixed location game. Each OCC has their area in which to shine.

I have never seen a City Rat played. Like. Anywhere.

Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen one played either, and I'm not sure that I understand why.

Part of it might be that City Rats don't seem to have much of a role beyond "street smarts," and many classes can take the Streetwise skill. Thus, there seems to be little to nothing about them that's unique or valuable to a group.

Part of it might be that many of their city-focused skills are very situational and don't apply well to other situations. The same can be said of a Wilderness Scout, but Wilderness Scouts get more skills, and many of their skills can be quite useful in the city, too.

I suspect that urban-focused Rifts campaigns are rare, but even if I was playing in such a campaign, I'd prefer to go with something like a Rogue Scholar, Cyber-Doc, Operator, or some other O.C.C. I might be more interested in the City Rat O.C.C. if its abilities were more defined and iconic. Perhaps I should make a City Rat N.P.C. generator and see how I feel about the class after that.

[kaid]

Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

The CS is certainly big, and they're certainly bad. I'm not sure if a "the big bad" paradigm fits them all that well, though, considering that North America is also the site of:

1. Vampire kingdoms who treat people as cattle. Also, their intelligences.
2. Xiticix that are far more territorial and hostile to other sentient life forms than the Coalition.
3. Much of the Splugorth's favorite slave-catching grounds
4. The Federation of Magic (where skulls aren't just a symbol, especially in SoulHarvest)
5. The Mechanoid Invasion
6. Two simultaneous invasions from Hell.
7. ARCHIE 3.
8. The Pecos Empire, a loose collection of bandit gangs.
9. Permanent rifts where more crazy threats can and do emerge on an ongoing basis.

Can the lesser of ~10 evils be still "the big bad?" I've certainly played the CS that way both as a player and a GM, and Coalition soldiers and cops can make great villains. I'm just not sure that I'd put them in the same category as Sauron/Voldemort/Palpatine.

I am sorry but trying to claim that the Nazi Empire isn't a problem because there are some other problems is pretty much a joke. at best.

(snipping out good, but irrelevant points)

NO ONE tries to white wash the Vampires and claim they are good, or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
NO ONE tries to white wash the Xictic and claim they are good or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
But a group of genocidal fanatics, who run around in black, wear skulls and were explicitly based on the Nazis... are just "misunderstood"
:help:

Read the bolded part above. I'm not white washing anything. The CS is big and bad. They are a problem. I'm saying that there are bad guys aplenty in North America and presenting the CS as "the" villains of the setting doesn't seem to fit the setting as presented. Whether they seem better or worse than any of the other threats I mentioned depends greatly upon one's point of view. Thus, implying that they are some kind of monolithic epitome of all that is evil in the setting doesn't seem valid to me.

Also it should probably be noted for as big and bad as the CS are their expansionism has been really minimal. The main areas they are expansing in either expressly ASKED for the expansion or shoring up already held areas. Tolkeen was the first major push into another powers sphere of influence and it looks like that was mostly because the CS was running low on some resources.

Overall that I think is why most places were focusing on other problems and threats because even though the CS has the forces to roll over most of their close neighbors they seem somewhat reluctant to do so.

[Shark_Force]

Also it should probably be noted for as big and bad as the CS are their expansionism has been really minimal. The main areas they are expansing in either expressly ASKED for the expansion or shoring up already held areas. Tolkeen was the first major push into another powers sphere of influence and it looks like that was mostly because the CS was running low on some resources.

Overall that I think is why most places were focusing on other problems and threats because even though the CS has the forces to roll over most of their close neighbors they seem somewhat reluctant to do so.

eh, not quite.

we know they send out patrols to kill anything they don't approve of on their border, and given that they've already laid claim to it (along with the rest of the world) practically speaking that amounts to conquering those territories, just without actually calling it a war.

furthermore, while they don't necessarily expand by overt military action elsewhere, it is highly probable that they have agents in place to subvert nearby groups that are close enough to their views to be integrated, and that they definitely exert political pressure to push communities into being close enough to their views for future integration.

the CS started off quite a bit smaller than its current size. they didn't get bigger by just meekly sitting in the corner and waiting for others to beg the CS to restrict their liberties and remove their sovereignty all by themselves.

[HWalsh]

Also it should probably be noted for as big and bad as the CS are their expansionism has been really minimal. The main areas they are expansing in either expressly ASKED for the expansion or shoring up already held areas. Tolkeen was the first major push into another powers sphere of influence and it looks like that was mostly because the CS was running low on some resources.

Overall that I think is why most places were focusing on other problems and threats because even though the CS has the forces to roll over most of their close neighbors they seem somewhat reluctant to do so.

eh, not quite.

we know they send out patrols to kill anything they don't approve of on their border, and given that they've already laid claim to it (along with the rest of the world) practically speaking that amounts to conquering those territories, just without actually calling it a war.

furthermore, while they don't necessarily expand by overt military action elsewhere, it is highly probable that they have agents in place to subvert nearby groups that are close enough to their views to be integrated, and that they definitely exert political pressure to push communities into being close enough to their views for future integration.

the CS started off quite a bit smaller than its current size. they didn't get bigger by just meekly sitting in the corner and waiting for others to beg the CS to restrict their liberties and remove their sovereignty all by themselves.

We know, for example, that they lie to communities to coerce them into joining the CS. There is a fiction insert in one of the books where a community is being pressured by the CS and one of the men of the community speaks up and tells the CS that they don't let people read and invokes the name Erin Tarn. The CS guy laughs him off saying that Tarn is a liar and was just an ignorant farm girl who is taking advantage of people, then explains that the CS doesn't teach reading because reading is hard and people have better things to do with their time than to learn how to do something that they don't need. They cite that the CS puts out news shows to tell them what they want to hear. At the end of the insert the CS guy privately tells one of his people to prepare to kill and/or take the guy who spoke out against them into custody.

So, in a community that they don't even control, they start talking about straight murdering people who don't follow their views... This has gone way off topic though... Who wants to make a thread where we can talk about the injustices of the CS properly?

[kaid]

Also it should probably be noted for as big and bad as the CS are their expansionism has been really minimal. The main areas they are expansing in either expressly ASKED for the expansion or shoring up already held areas. Tolkeen was the first major push into another powers sphere of influence and it looks like that was mostly because the CS was running low on some resources.

Overall that I think is why most places were focusing on other problems and threats because even though the CS has the forces to roll over most of their close neighbors they seem somewhat reluctant to do so.

eh, not quite.

we know they send out patrols to kill anything they don't approve of on their border, and given that they've already laid claim to it (along with the rest of the world) practically speaking that amounts to conquering those territories, just without actually calling it a war.

furthermore, while they don't necessarily expand by overt military action elsewhere, it is highly probable that they have agents in place to subvert nearby groups that are close enough to their views to be integrated, and that they definitely exert political pressure to push communities into being close enough to their views for future integration.

the CS started off quite a bit smaller than its current size. they didn't get bigger by just meekly sitting in the corner and waiting for others to beg the CS to restrict their liberties and remove their sovereignty all by themselves.

And yet places like kingsdale, new lazlo, merc town, NG and manastique still exist. The CS military size compared to places like new lazlo means if they wanted to they could roll in and punch it out and there is nothing anybody could do to stop it. The CS do their random kill sweeps but have not really pushed into many very occupied territories. The bulk of what they do is up and down the mississippi corridor and even there a lot of it is control in name only. The way they seem to work is building up fortress cities first then the surrounding stuff and expanding slowly. With their experience with the fight vs tolkeen and the size of their military if they wanted most of the midwest they have all they need to do so. Places like the magic zone would always be problematic but outside that area they could lock everything down pretty tightly when they choose to do so.

Now I think all the non CS powers in the area have to assume that down the line the CS IS going to come for them. But the slowness of their overall expansion is one reason they are down the list from some of the other threats.

[Shark_Force]

officially, the CS had an astoundingly terrible time of invading tolkeen (for the sake of argument, let's just ignore that the war was run by spectacularly incompetent morons on both sides, and also ignore the fact that the authors failed to do even the most basic precursory checks of whether or not the CS military came out of the war several times larger than it was before the war, and accept that the plot demanded that the CS eventually stomp the crap out of tolkeen but take a beating along the way and pretend that the books actually support that outcome). and they pretty much hands down *lost* the fight against free quebec (mostly because FQ managed to completely destroy all credibility the CS had regarding the war being even the tiniest bit just).

that doesn't point to them being extremely eager to pick more fights from my perspective.

especially not when their other tactics cost a lot less and generally get them what they want, without damaging their image. i mean, you can bet pretty much everyone *else* on the continent knows that tolkeen was not a legitimate threat to the CS, and have adjusted their views on what the CS is doing accordingly. military conquest is just so much more expensive.

in the meanwhile, yeah, technically northern gun is a free nation. or, you know, a "free" "nation" that is already on the path towards being forced to march to the CS's tune in a variety of ways, and already giving up some portions of their sovereignty.

[Pencroff357]

Okay, guy with a master's in political studies about the Yugoslav Wars reporting.

Genocide would be incorrect in this case, as it defines the extermination of a different national/ethnic/religious group... of the same race. Serbs, Bosniaks, Albanians, Croats killed the minorities they could get their hands on and that's genocide because they're all humans, and the separations are cultural, ethnic and religious.
Now, if we're talking about a species trying to exterminate another one - as in, two completely different species, with different organs, different bodies, which can't breed with each other etc - then it's eidocide.
Xenocide would be "killing everything which isn't like you" and could be applied to crimes against different species or different religious, national etc groups, according to the context.

[The Beast]

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

I have not, but I think that is because they are written to shine in a a stationary urban game and I have yet to play in such a game. I very much like the City Rat, but until I have the chance to play in an all urban campaign, I doubt I will see reason to play one. On the flip side, if I only ever played in all urban games, I would see no reason to play a Wilderness Scout. In fact, even the Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist lose some of their punch in a fixed location game. Each OCC has their area in which to shine.

I have never seen a City Rat played. Like. Anywhere.

Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen one played either, and I'm not sure that I understand why.

I made a WB8 city rat for a game once. We began it in an urban setting, but soon moved to a rural/wilderness setting. He was pretty much useless at that point. I was able to do a little bit of the Operator OCC (which was basically modifying simple items for other uses), but it wasn't enough to keep me happy with the PC. Had that game continued I would have likely asked to be allowed to make a new one.

[torjones]

This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

About 8 years back, I wound up running a group once that was 3 city rats, 1 cyber human, and their cyber-doc. Wound up making up a whole boat load of stuff for Lazlo based off of then-current real world info from Toronto to do it. The one I remember was based on the University of Toronto - Robarts Library building. The building is supposed to look like a peacock, so I had it be one of the few remaining buildings after the Chaos. I want to do that again some day, it was fun!

[SolCannibal]

This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

About 8 years back, I wound up running a group once that was 3 city rats, 1 cyber human, and their cyber-doc. Wound up making up a whole boat load of stuff for Lazlo based off of then-current real world info from Toronto to do it. The one I remember was based on the University of Toronto - Robarts Library building. The building is supposed to look like a peacock, so I had it be one of the few remaining buildings after the Chaos. I want to do that again some day, it was fun!

Presently doing an urban game, but it is in a (half-sketched) city in the border of the Magic Zone with some ties but no membership in the Federation of Magic. Would that count?

[kaid]

officially, the CS had an astoundingly terrible time of invading tolkeen (for the sake of argument, let's just ignore that the war was run by spectacularly incompetent morons on both sides, and also ignore the fact that the authors failed to do even the most basic precursory checks of whether or not the CS military came out of the war several times larger than it was before the war, and accept that the plot demanded that the CS eventually stomp the crap out of tolkeen but take a beating along the way and pretend that the books actually support that outcome). and they pretty much hands down *lost* the fight against free quebec (mostly because FQ managed to completely destroy all credibility the CS had regarding the war being even the tiniest bit just).

that doesn't point to them being extremely eager to pick more fights from my perspective.

especially not when their other tactics cost a lot less and generally get them what they want, without damaging their image. i mean, you can bet pretty much everyone *else* on the continent knows that tolkeen was not a legitimate threat to the CS, and have adjusted their views on what the CS is doing accordingly. military conquest is just so much more expensive.

in the meanwhile, yeah, technically northern gun is a free nation. or, you know, a "free" "nation" that is already on the path towards being forced to march to the CS's tune in a variety of ways, and already giving up some portions of their sovereignty.

As bad as the C.S are most of their 20 year plan is consolidating the mississippi corridor and over to lonestar. A lot of the territory they claim currently is CS in name only with a few big enclaves and a whole lot of wilderness. Now that they lost free quebec a lot of their old expansion plans over to CS iron heart and connecting to free quebec seem like they may go far onto the back burner. Without the pressing reason to try to connect up to quebec directly for the forseeable future after the minion war once they finish up their hold on the mississippi area it makes a lot more sense for the CS to expand west instead of east. Lots of area of expansion available west of the mississippi with basically bandits and tiny towns/outposts until you get all the way out to arzno/colorado baronies.

[SolCannibal]

officially, the CS had an astoundingly terrible time of invading tolkeen (for the sake of argument, let's just ignore that the war was run by spectacularly incompetent morons on both sides, and also ignore the fact that the authors failed to do even the most basic precursory checks of whether or not the CS military came out of the war several times larger than it was before the war, and accept that the plot demanded that the CS eventually stomp the crap out of tolkeen but take a beating along the way and pretend that the books actually support that outcome). and they pretty much hands down *lost* the fight against free quebec (mostly because FQ managed to completely destroy all credibility the CS had regarding the war being even the tiniest bit just).

that doesn't point to them being extremely eager to pick more fights from my perspective.

especially not when their other tactics cost a lot less and generally get them what they want, without damaging their image. i mean, you can bet pretty much everyone *else* on the continent knows that tolkeen was not a legitimate threat to the CS, and have adjusted their views on what the CS is doing accordingly. military conquest is just so much more expensive.

in the meanwhile, yeah, technically northern gun is a free nation. or, you know, a "free" "nation" that is already on the path towards being forced to march to the CS's tune in a variety of ways, and already giving up some portions of their sovereignty.

As bad as the C.S are most of their 20 year plan is consolidating the mississippi corridor and over to lonestar. A lot of the territory they claim currently is CS in name only with a few big enclaves and a whole lot of wilderness. Now that they lost free quebec a lot of their old expansion plans over to CS iron heart and connecting to free quebec seem like they may go far onto the back burner. Without the pressing reason to try to connect up to quebec directly for the forseeable future after the minion war once they finish up their hold on the mississippi area it makes a lot more sense for the CS to expand west instead of east. Lots of area of expansion available west of the mississippi with basically bandits and tiny towns/outposts until you get all the way out to arzno/colorado baronies.

Well, Prosek has never been the best of friends with Free Quebec's current leadership, something that played a major part in that state's secession from the CS in the first place. While a truce was called over some of the setbacks of the Sorcerer's Revenge, it doesn't make them friends once more and engulfing some of the area so Free Quebec doesn't expand into, might be a strategic consideration in the eyes of some.

That said, i agree there's a distance between the idea of power/territory the Coalition projects - among other things through maps of the member-states in the books - and the actual reality of how much of that space they truly occcupy and control in an effective manner.

Not even going into how some of the "old american empire border replication" state borders would ludricoulsly impractical to adhere to in the first place in a post-apocalyptic context (specially when one accounts natural & supernatural changes to the geeography in the intervening centuries), except as a "rebuilding the past/inheritors of the old empire" propaganda piece.