Question: Impenetrable Wall of Force (Spell)

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but the "Search" function isn't work right now so I'm presenting my problem here for some feedback.

I'm working on a project that involves the official spells from the PF2 main book. Several areas have given me grief for one reason or another, but mostly just annoyances. With Impenetrable Wall of Force (PF2, page 216), I have an issue with the dimensions. The line reads:

"... measures 20 feet tall, 20 feet wide by 20 feet (6x6x6 m) long per level of experience."

So, at level 15, is it ...

1: 300x300x300 ft, meaning the "per level" applies to all the dimensions (the "6x6x6" section indicates this might be the case)?
2: 20x300x300 ft, with the comma dividing 20 feet tall from the equation and the "per level" applies to width and length?
3: 20x20x300 ft, with the "per level" only applying to the length?
4: 300x300 ft, ignoring the third dimension (this is how it would appear in Rifts: Book of Magic, page 151)?
5: Other (please explain).

As a G.M., I'd just make a house rule and call it a day. However, I'm attempting to do this project per the book, and that means doing it the way the book intends. While I want to stick to official interpretations, I'm okay with "spirit" of the rule (even if not the letter) if it can be justified. Thank you. Farewell and safe journeys.

[kiralon]

As it has 6x6x6 in brackets its describing a box of force, not a wall, so i'd assume its an error not caught in editing, especially when first ed's is just 20ft by 20ft per level.
The other thing that makes me think this is the range on the spell means that after level 5 you would be stuck in it whenever you cast it if it's a box (Range 100ft).
But the 600 ppe to cast it make it a waste of time spell anyway. Yes you can get ways to get enough ppe but on the whole the effort really isn't worth it, especially considering negate magic and destroy magic barriers can get rid of it for a whole lot less effort.
I can count the amount of times its been cast in a game in the last 20 years on the fingers of 1 hand (that was chopped off and fed to the dog).
I just use invisible wall now.

[Prysus]

The other thing that makes me think this is the range on the spell means that after level 5 you would be stuck in it whenever you cast it if it's a box (Range 100ft).

Greetings and Salutations. I appreciate the response. As for being stuck in it ...

1: As it's force, I imagine it would push everything out of its area of effect, not trap it there. But that's really just an opinion and doesn't address the main issue.

2: I also brought this up when talking with my wife on it, and she had a possible idea to avoid that. If you can cast it 100 feet away, and the area is 300 feet deep, you might be able to cast the EDGE of the wall 100 feet away (making the far wall 400 feet away). At the very least, it's one possible interpretation.

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

[kiralon]

One of the problems with the push out option is what strength does it push out, will it push a person out? a demon? how about a castle wall? Another wall of force? Can you squish people with it by forcing them into a stone wall?
Wall spells mention dropping walls on people and people entering them but do not mention what happens if you cast a wall on someone, does the wall appear and trap the person (if its iron). If it pushes things out of the way at what strength, would it be an easy way to crack open castle walls. I play it that if something is in the way the spell fails as it tends to fit all the options best without changing the effect of the spell.

Players will weaponise anything.
If Telekinesis does 1D4x10 S.D.C. per 100 lbs of weight,
And an iron wall from the spell which is (2.4x2.4x1.2) metres per level (Cast Iron is 7300kg per cubic metre) why does it only take a PS of 60 to move and only do 1d6x10 damage. Note it doesn't matter how big the wall is, just that it takes a combined ps of 60 to move.
Wall of Iron can't be iron, because it only has 150 sdc per level for 2.4m * 2.4m * 1.2m which is less then a suit of full plate.
Its ridonkulous.

[Whiskeyjack]

When first reading it I would probably instinctively say 300x300x300. But seeing as it is a wall, I would probably go with 20x20x300. A cube isn't really a wall by definition. Otherwise the spell would be Impenetrable Block of Force.

[kiralon]

Impenetrable house of force ?

[Jack Burton]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but the "Search" function isn't work right now so I'm presenting my problem here for some feedback.

I'm working on a project that involves the official spells from the PF2 main book. Several areas have given me grief for one reason or another, but mostly just annoyances. With Impenetrable Wall of Force (PF2, page 216), I have an issue with the dimensions. The line reads:

"... measures 20 feet tall, 20 feet wide by 20 feet (6x6x6 m) long per level of experience."

So, at level 15, is it ...

1: 300x300x300 ft, meaning the "per level" applies to all the dimensions (the "6x6x6" section indicates this might be the case)?
2: 20x300x300 ft, with the comma dividing 20 feet tall from the equation and the "per level" applies to width and length?
3: 20x20x300 ft, with the "per level" only applying to the length?
4: 300x300 ft, ignoring the third dimension (this is how it would appear in Rifts: Book of Magic, page 151)?
5: Other (please explain).

As a G.M., I'd just make a house rule and call it a day. However, I'm attempting to do this project per the book, and that means doing it the way the book intends. While I want to stick to official interpretations, I'm okay with "spirit" of the rule (even if not the letter) if it can be justified. Thank you. Farewell and safe journeys.

You can always submit a help ticket on the Palladium website to get an official answer. We can speculate all day long as to what the intent was when it was written and we could easily (and likely) be wrong. Heck, it may be written exactly as intended. We just don't know. About a year ago, I submitted a help ticket to get a question answered about BtS2 and received a reply a few weeks after that. Good luck with your project!

[eliakon]

I went with 20 x 20 x 300
My reasoning is this
the height is not said to change. Thus your wall is always 20' tall

The thickness lets you stand on the wall... like a castle wall, so long walls can be used for archer support or many other things. It also avoids the "how thick is a force wall" question that invariably comes up.

The length is said to change so your wall gets longer.

This gets us a wall of force, not a sheet of force nor a cube of force. Which I feel was the intent. At high levels it will basically conjure up a city wall!

[Lukterran]

I don't know how you're going to cast that spell? Its conversion to the PPE system from 1st edition greatly destroyed its playability. Only a dragon, god or some other creature with an insanely high PPE pool can cast it at the books stated cost of 600 PPE.

Seriously wizard only gets 3D4x10+20 PPE at base and 3D6 PPE per level. So at 15th level with maxed out rolls and a P.E. of 24. That would put them only in the 430 range of PPE which is highly unlikely. You could do a ritual with multiple people but that is a waste of effort and resources for a spell that is supposed to be a quick action. Tell your enemy "Please hold one while we perform our ritual to put this wall in your way". Again not to many game sessions where you are playing a 15th level caster.

Not to mention it only lasts for 5 minutes for level of caster. Which means all the work for a very temporary gain.

[Veknironth]

Well, I think the operative word is “wall”. You could read the dimensions as 20 feet tall (always) by 20 feet deep (always) by 20 feet long (per level). That would resemble what we consider a wall to be. The order of operations in the sentence is murky so I can understand the confusion.

-Vek
“Consider my response canon.”

[eliakon]

I don't know how you're going to cast that spell? Its conversion to the PPE system from 1st edition greatly destroyed its playability. Only a dragon, god or some other creature with an insanely high PPE pool can cast it at the books stated cost of 600 PPE.

Seriously wizard only gets 3D4x10+20 PPE at base and 3D6 PPE per level. So at 15th level with maxed out rolls and a P.E. of 24. That would put them only in the 430 range of PPE which is highly unlikely. You could do a ritual with multiple people but that is a waste of effort and resources for a spell that is supposed to be a quick action. Tell your enemy "Please hold one while we perform our ritual to put this wall in your way". Again not to many game sessions where you are playing a 15th level caster.

Not to mention it only lasts for 5 minutes for level of caster. Which means all the work for a very temporary gain.

Or you have a scroll of it that you made in advance.
Or you are on a ley line
Or you have charged up on a ley line
Or you cast the spell ritually then make it permenant with a ward.
Or all sorts of other situations.

The spell isn't "useless" it just no longer is something that the players can cast ten or twenty times a day.
Which was rather the entire point of going to PPE.

[Lukterran]

it just no longer is something that the players can cast ten or twenty times a day. Which was rather the entire point of going to PPE.

I don't know if I agree with the point of going to a PPE system was to keep people from casting 20 spells a day. If it was it completely failed and allowed just that to happen. Spell caster numerous spells is so much easy in 2nd edition vs 1st were you actually had to do some rationing of spell casting.

In first edition spell casting per day was low. Like 2 spells for 1st level, 3 spells for 2nd and 5 spells for 5rd level. Thus forcing players to choice the best time to use their spells. Only very high level character could cast dozens of spells.

Verses 2nd edition where a low level mage can cast dozens of spells from the get go, given the spells low PPE cost and the players huge starting PPE base. The only spells that get restricted or rationed are the very high level spells now (those above 10th level).

[kiralon]

Well, I think the operative word is “wall”. You could read the dimensions as 20 feet tall (always) by 20 feet deep (always) by 20 feet long (per level). That would resemble what we consider a wall to be. The order of operations in the sentence is murky so I can understand the confusion.

-Vek
“Consider my response canon.”

The fact that its written as
The spell caster is able to create a wall of force that measures 20 feet tall, 20 feet wide by 20 feet (6x6x6 m) long per level of experience
just means bad writing and editing, nothing new there. Trying to figure out writing mistakes is part of palladium. The wall could have 4 dimensions being considering the sentence can make 20ft long the same as 216 metres long (6*6*6), or I guess it could be 2.16 millimetres, or is it more likely the guy writing this bit was either a bit excited or mostly asleep when he transferred it from a slightly more sensible 20ft x 20ft per level from first ed.

[eliakon]

it just no longer is something that the players can cast ten or twenty times a day. Which was rather the entire point of going to PPE.

I don't know if I agree with the point of going to a PPE system was to keep people from casting 20 spells a day. If it was it completely failed and allowed just that to happen. Spell caster numerous spells is so much easy in 2nd edition vs 1st were you actually had to do some rationing of spell casting.

I didn't say 20 spells per day.
I said casting Impenetrable Wall of Force 20 times per day.

The idea of letting you have lots of little spells or a few big spells was the whole goal of PPE... and it has worked really well.

In first edition spell casting per day was low. Like 2 spells for 1st level, 3 spells for 2nd and 5 spells for 5rd level. Thus forcing players to choice the best time to use their spells. Only very high level character could cast dozens of spells.

Verses 2nd edition where a low level mage can cast dozens of spells from the get go, given the spells low PPE cost and the players huge starting PPE base. The only spells that get restricted or rationed are the very high level spells now (those above 10th level).

And in 1e there was no reason to not use super high level spells if you had them... after all a level 1 spell and a SoL cost the exact same to cast.
Thus as you point out. High level spells are now rationed instead of being tossed around as the primary go-to spells which can be cast several times per day by even the lowest level casters.

[Library Ogre]

I have always read it as, per level of experience, you can create one 6*6*6 section of wall. How you arrange those sections is up to you, but they have to be contiguous. I use this for all wall spells.

This does not give you a certain amount of cubic feet, but sections to be arranged. If you're in a 3m square corridor, your 1st level character doesn't get to make a section 3*3*24... the section is still 6*6*6, and limited by the space it is in. If your 8th level caster wants a square of force surrounding them, they can make the contiguous squares surround them (you can actually manage this as low as 4th level; I require more than just an edge connection, but a 4th level character might have a couple meters of overlap on either edge).

[kiralon]

I have always read it as, per level of experience, you can create one 6*6*6 section of wall. How you arrange those sections is up to you, but they have to be contiguous. I use this for all wall spells.

This does not give you a certain amount of cubic feet, but sections to be arranged. If you're in a 3m square corridor, your 1st level character doesn't get to make a section 3*3*24... the section is still 6*6*6, and limited by the space it is in. If your 8th level caster wants a square of force surrounding them, they can make the contiguous squares surround them (you can actually manage this as low as 4th level; I require more than just an edge connection, but a 4th level character might have a couple meters of overlap on either edge).

So you didn't think the extra dimension was a mistake?
Also how much light does it give off, is it a dim glow or does it light up the neighborhood.

[Library Ogre]

I have always read it as, per level of experience, you can create one 6*6*6 section of wall. How you arrange those sections is up to you, but they have to be contiguous. I use this for all wall spells.

This does not give you a certain amount of cubic feet, but sections to be arranged. If you're in a 3m square corridor, your 1st level character doesn't get to make a section 3*3*24... the section is still 6*6*6, and limited by the space it is in. If your 8th level caster wants a square of force surrounding them, they can make the contiguous squares surround them (you can actually manage this as low as 4th level; I require more than just an edge connection, but a 4th level character might have a couple meters of overlap on either edge).

So you didn't think the extra dimension was a mistake?
Also how much light does it give off, is it a dim glow or does it light up the neighborhood.

I don't think it was thought about hard enough to be a mistake.

I tend towards "Dim glow"... you can read by it, if your back is to it and you hold it up to catch the light. You are well backlit for people trying to shoot you.

[kiralon]

I think the only things that were thought about were bits that kevin actually played or dm'd because some things have had thought put into them and i'd guess they were in games with him, but the problematic things likely didn't. I'd almost put money on no one ever casting impenetrable wall of force in a game he was dm of (in a second ed game) or this would be spelled out differently in the book.



@eliakon
There is a difference between rationed and mostly unusable, for the time that It lasts any of the other wall spells are pretty much better because they don't require a stupid amount of ppe, might as well cast a spell of legend because they are just as hard to cast.
Because that which lets a high level user cast it is what lets a low level user cast it, so its still going to be cast and many times per 1000 years whether you are low level or high level (which is pretty much never from what I have seen)
The only time this spell is better than another wall spell is a very specific set of circumstances, that are too specific for 600ppe.
Can you think of a time someone has cast it.

[eliakon]

I think the only things that were thought about were bits that kevin actually played or dm'd because some things have had thought put into them and i'd guess they were in games with him, but the problematic things likely didn't. I'd almost put money on no one ever casting impenetrable wall of force in a game he was dm of (in a second ed game) or this would be spelled out differently in the book.



@eliakon
There is a difference between rationed and mostly unusable, for the time that It lasts any of the other wall spells are pretty much better because they don't require a stupid amount of ppe, might as well cast a spell of legend because they are just as hard to cast.
Because that which lets a high level user cast it is what lets a low level user cast it, so its still going to be cast and many times per 1000 years whether you are low level or high level (which is pretty much never from what I have seen)
The only time this spell is better than another wall spell is a very specific set of circumstances, that are too specific for 600ppe.
Can you think of a time someone has cast it.

I have seen it used a few times in games actually yes.
1)Used to make scrolls of the spell which were then used to provide "instant cover" in combat. Cover that you simply can't batter down.

2)it also is really useful if you throw a diabolist ward on it. Presto nice, wall that is:
thick, so you can have troops patrol the top of it
Indestructible, so you don't have to worry about siege engines, or elementals or whatnot.
AND that is illuminated at night, making it harder to sneak up on.
Oh and its force, which means that you are going to have a really hard time climbing it. (bring a ladder)

3)And of course... high level casters are the only ones that can get really useful work out of it right now.

As for the rationing....
Higher level mages have more PPE to work with. That means that they can over charge with more PPE.
They are also the ones far more likely to have all the spells needed to pull off the use of high level spells.


All in all I see nothing at all in the world wrong with making it harder for a level 1 mage to sit back and toast entire armies or whatever just because they found a nifty scroll someplace.

[kiralon]

I totally agree that a level 1 mage shouldn't be able to cast a spell that's to high (or over level 1 in my opinion).

But impenetrable wall of force is pretty niche, The other walls will normally last long enough.
IWoF only last for only lasts 5 melees per level, its pretty useless against siege weaponry because siege weaponry reload times are almost longer than the spell lasts when you compare it to wall of iron that has 750 sdc at level 5. It gets half destroyed, cast it again (12 castings or so). The effort required to get the spell is massively not worth it. Spellcasters would know the time limits on the spell, so it is only useful/better in very specific circumstances.

Making a scroll requires the same resources as casting the spell +100ppe (so 700ppe) not that it matters as wizards cannot create scrolls (page 106, at bottom of failed scroll conversion chart), so that leaves priests using divine intervention to cast create scroll spell, or priests using the create scroll divine intervention ability, or an alchemist. So getting it isn't easy, and for what a wall of glowy light that lasts for 10 minutes.

In the situations where impenetrable wall of force was used, how different would wall of iron, carpet of adhesion and cloud of slumber been to stopping the foes or attacks. The higher level spells are supposed to be better, and IWoF would be if it lasted longer, or cost less.

[eliakon]

I totally agree that a level 1 mage shouldn't be able to cast a spell that's to high (or over level 1 in my opinion).

But impenetrable wall of force is pretty niche, The other walls will normally last long enough.
IWoF only last for only lasts 5 melees per level, its pretty useless against siege weaponry because siege weaponry reload times are almost longer than the spell lasts when you compare it to wall of iron that has 750 sdc at level 5. It gets half destroyed, cast it again (12 castings or so). The effort required to get the spell is massively not worth it. Spellcasters would know the time limits on the spell, so it is only useful/better in very specific circumstances.

And that niche is pretty useful though when you need something that simply can't be broken.
Like I said, the main niche I have seen it used in was combined with a diabolist. In which case it is hands down the best non SoL wall spell out there.

Making a scroll requires the same resources as casting the spell +100ppe (so 700ppe) not that it matters as wizards cannot create scrolls (page 106, at bottom of failed scroll conversion chart), so that leaves priests using divine intervention to cast create scroll spell, or priests using the create scroll divine intervention ability, or an alchemist. So getting it isn't easy, and for what a wall of glowy light that lasts for 10 minutes.

Or you know... just cast the spell create scroll?
I mean that is kind of what it is there for.
Sure you can't just create scrolls like an alchemist can, but you can write all the scrolls you want if you use the spell.

In the situations where impenetrable wall of force was used, how different would wall of iron, carpet of adhesion and cloud of slumber been to stopping the foes or attacks. The higher level spells are supposed to be better, and IWoF would be if it lasted longer, or cost less.

In most cases... it might not have been better. But I can think of at least one case where the spell was used simply because there wasn't anything else that was able to stand up to what was coming (not many spells can protect from lava flow, another was used in a Rifts game was to provide protection from a nuclear stike)
Not that I don't think that it could have its PPE cost reduced and still be just as explicitly high level... but that is neither here nor there.
The question before us is not "should we reduce the PPE cost of this spell"
The question is not "should we lower the level of this spell"
The question is not eve "should mages be limited to spells of their level or lower"
The question is "given the way the spell IWoF is written in the book, what should its dimensions be?"
If you want to debate if spells should cost PPE, or how many spells per day a caster should get, or what level spells people should cast that is a fine and interesting topic... for its own thread.

[kiralon]

P.P.E.: 100 plus the P.P.E. needed to cast the magic spell placed on the scroll.
I read that differently, I think it costs 100ppe plus the cost of the spell you are placing on the scroll, and that you need to know the spell as well, which is very hard to get being lvl 14, unless of course you have a very friendly priest, and most importantly, if it was that easy to make (level 2 priests can do it @ lvl 7 ability for example), why doesn't one surround every city on palladium.

also
Important Note: Wizards cannot create scrolls - see alchemists.
is another odd one, did the author mean it to say just wizards can't create scrolls in anyway related to being a wizard? or just that the wizard doesn't have the skill to do it?

and oh the questions about the permanence ward (which has to have an area effect ward, which has to have an inflict or prot by inflict etc ward).

[Lukterran]

I have always read it as, per level of experience, you can create one 6*6*6 section of wall. How you arrange those sections is up to you, but they have to be contiguous. I use this for all wall spells.

This does not give you a certain amount of cubic feet, but sections to be arranged. If you're in a 3m square corridor, your 1st level character doesn't get to make a section 3*3*24... the section is still 6*6*6, and limited by the space it is in. If your 8th level caster wants a square of force surrounding them, they can make the contiguous squares surround them (you can actually manage this as low as 4th level; I require more than just an edge connection, but a 4th level character might have a couple meters of overlap on either edge).

Bingo! That is how I see it too. If you want a cube of force that is up to the caster. But if you need only a wall you can have those maximum dimensions but if you need to reshape the spell that is up to the caster.

[eliakon]

P.P.E.: 100 plus the P.P.E. needed to cast the magic spell placed on the scroll.
I read that differently, I think it costs 100ppe plus the cost of the spell you are placing on the scroll, and that you need to know the spell as well, which is very hard to get being lvl 14, unless of course you have a very friendly priest, and most importantly, if it was that easy to make (level 2 priests can do it @ lvl 7 ability for example), why doesn't one surround every city on palladium.

Yeah, it's pretty clear you need the spell to make a scroll of it.
And the reason there aren't walls of this around every town is the same reason that there are none of the other things that should be common, but aren't.
Like why roads are so bad.
Why cities even have walls in the first place
Why there aren't silver and iron weapons on hand for city guards
Why you don't have holy water issued out to the city guards.
Why you don't have protective circles all over.
The list of "you could do this, but that wouldn't be medieval"

also
Important Note: Wizards cannot create scrolls - see alchemists.
is another odd one, did the author mean it to say just wizards can't create scrolls in anyway related to being a wizard? or just that the wizard doesn't have the skill to do it?

It is pretty clear that wizards can use this to make scrolls.
I mean that is literally the exact words used. "The mage" and "anyone fellow mage or housewife"

and oh the questions about the permanence ward (which has to have an area effect ward, which has to have an inflict or prot by inflict etc ward).

No, you don't have to have inflict
The text is pretty explicit that you just need Permanence, Area Effect and that those two make the spell permeant.

[eliakon]

I have always read it as, per level of experience, you can create one 6*6*6 section of wall. How you arrange those sections is up to you, but they have to be contiguous. I use this for all wall spells.

This does not give you a certain amount of cubic feet, but sections to be arranged. If you're in a 3m square corridor, your 1st level character doesn't get to make a section 3*3*24... the section is still 6*6*6, and limited by the space it is in. If your 8th level caster wants a square of force surrounding them, they can make the contiguous squares surround them (you can actually manage this as low as 4th level; I require more than just an edge connection, but a 4th level character might have a couple meters of overlap on either edge).

Bingo! That is how I see it too. If you want a cube of force that is up to the caster. But if you need only a wall you can have those maximum dimensions but if you need to reshape the spell that is up to the caster.

Now see, I am the opposite way.
I give you one sheet of wall. If you want a cube you need to cast multiple castings, you can't simply reshape the spell. Or more simply... you get a fixed shape that is of variable size, not a fixed volume that you can shape as you will.

[kiralon]

Yeah, it's pretty clear you need the spell to make a scroll of it.
And the reason there aren't walls of this around every town is the same reason that there are none of the other things that should be common, but aren't.
Like why roads are so bad.
Why cities even have walls in the first place
Why there aren't silver and iron weapons on hand for city guards
Why you don't have holy water issued out to the city guards.
Why you don't have protective circles all over.
The list of "you could do this, but that wouldn't be medieval"

The worlds only 3 days old is the real reason. Time hasn't passed for evolution to kick in yet.

It is pretty clear that wizards can use this to make scrolls.
I mean that is literally the exact words used. "The mage" and "anyone fellow mage or housewife"

Is it, saying wizards cannot create scrolls is pretty clear wording too, and if casting create scroll isnt the wizard creating a scroll who is. Take the wizard away and the scroll won't be created.

and if you check alchemist like it says
"The alchemist is one of the few people in the world who can turn a spell invocation (not a ritual) into a magic scroll."
If every tom dick and harry can do it that wouldn't really count as few.
And are mages wizards, or does it mean just generically magic users. It doesn't say wizards.

No, you don't have to have inflict
The text is pretty explicit that you just need Permanence, Area Effect and that those two make the spell permeant.

Permanence ward looks to say it needs area effect
"This ward symbol must be carved from the bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god and combined with an area affect ward."
And area effect ward is pretty specific in saying
"To unleash magic on everyone in a particular area, the object or person must bear an area affect ward symbol. An area affect symbol must be accompanied by a condition, protection from, protection by infliction, or an inflict ward symbol"
Not to mention only being able to put on immobile things and the area effect never moving once activated even if the warded object moves. So when its put on a movable living object does that mean he walks right out of the area effect lol.
Stupid rules that contradict each other in almost the same sentence.

However I do like the idea of each level getting a lego block of magic wall to use per level of caster, is it hollow, how easy to move is it. Im guessing it doesn't way much.

[eliakon]

No, you don't have to have inflict
The text is pretty explicit that you just need Permanence, Area Effect and that those two make the spell permeant.

Permanence ward looks to say it needs area effect
"This ward symbol must be carved from the bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god and combined with an area affect ward."
And area effect ward is pretty specific in saying
"[color=#FF0000]To unleash magic on everyone in a particular area, the object or person must bear an area affect ward symbol. An area affect symbol must be accompanied by a condition, protection from, protection by infliction, or an inflict ward symbol"[/color]
Not to mention only being able to put on immobile things and the area effect never moving once activated even if the warded object moves. So when its put on a movable living object does that mean he walks right out of the area effect lol.
Stupid rules that contradict each other in almost the same sentence.

Note that "To unleash magic"? Making a spell permanent isn't unleashing anything. The ward isn't unleashing any magic on anything other than anchoring the spell to the ward.



However I do like the idea of each level getting a lego block of magic wall to use per level of caster, is it hollow, how easy to move is it. Im guessing it doesn't way much.[/quote]

[kiralon]

Note that "To unleash magic"? Making a spell permanent isn't unleashing anything. The ward isn't unleashing any magic on anything other than anchoring the spell to the ward.

Not really sure what unleashing anything has got to go with it, but the permanence ward is definitely unleashing its power on a magical spell its making permanent, otherwise it wouldn't be effecting it.
Wards have specific rules, and they definitely say permanence goes with area effect (which is 10ft +5ft per level), so the permanence area effect would have to be pretty small. The fact that area effect needs a condition or trigger is fairly inconsequential as you can basically go if magic = yes then permanence ward is triggered in an area effect. I would play it that the entirety of the spell effect would need to be in the ward area effect to become permanent , otherwise it wouldn't (which would go a good way to explain why the world isn't covered in permanent walls).

I also think that the line about wizards not creating scrolls is meant to only mean they cant take up a pen and make them and would need the spell, but wizards cannot create scrolls is pretty definitive wording about whether a wizard can create a scroll. A class restriction saying that they can't would certainly override something else that references magic users in general and not wizards specifically. Its like saying druids cant cut down trees. Would a spell that cuts down trees let them cut down a tree? It doesn't matter which tool they use, albeit magic or an axe. The druid wouldn't be able to cut down a tree.

[eliakon]

Note that "To unleash magic"? Making a spell permanent isn't unleashing anything. The ward isn't unleashing any magic on anything other than anchoring the spell to the ward.

Not really sure what unleashing anything has got to go with it, but the permanence ward is definitely unleashing its power on a magical spell its making permanent, otherwise it wouldn't be effecting it.
Wards have specific rules, and they definitely say permanence goes with area effect (which is 10ft +5ft per level), so the permanence area effect would have to be pretty small. The fact that area effect needs a condition or trigger is fairly inconsequential as you can basically go if magic = yes then permanence ward is triggered in an area effect. I would play it that the entirety of the spell effect would need to be in the ward area effect to become permanent , otherwise it wouldn't (which would go a good way to explain why the world isn't covered in permanent walls).

We canonically know that isn't the case though since we have actual uses of the ward... and they are on things bigger than that area.
So... yeah.
It is pretty clear that as long as the permeance ward is within the spells area of effect or its Area ward area overlaps part of the spell that it works.

We can also pretty definitively say that you don't have to have Area wards for all permeance functions since you can use permeance on people, and you can't place an area ward on a person.

all of which is getting pretty off topic here and probably should move to another thread.

[The Beast]

It is pretty clear that wizards can use this to make scrolls.
I mean that is literally the exact words used. "The mage" and "anyone fellow mage or housewife"

Is it, saying wizards cannot create scrolls is pretty clear wording too, and if casting create scroll isnt the wizard creating a scroll who is. Take the wizard away and the scroll won't be created.

and if you check alchemist like it says
"The alchemist is one of the few people in the world who can turn a spell invocation (not a ritual) into a magic scroll."
If every tom dick and harry can do it that wouldn't really count as few.
And are mages wizards, or does it mean just generically magic users. It doesn't say wizards.

I take that to mean that alchemists don't need the spell to create magic scrolls.