Revisiting the ATL-7 and Naruni Sniper cannon

[shadrak]

So we have some recent rules changes that make sniper characters more interesting and I thought it would be interesting to provide an available weapon system that could make game play more interesting.

I have found that, most often, players rarely make called shots because targeting limbs and small targets often make little sense in gameplay...even the 6D6 damage NG and Triax weapons are of little use against troops using anything more than plastic an.

In order to encourage the use of called shots I have sought a method to allow massive damage while limiting effectiveness outside of a sniper role.

I looked at weapons offered in previous WBs and I have always liked the ATL-7 but I did not like its function or the manner in which it’s firing was limited.

However, nothing about the weapon system appeared particularly advanced or innovative.

So, i have created my own version originally developed by an independent operator and eventually picked up by Wilks:

The makeshift version of the weapon consists of a Wilks 587 sniper rifle modified to fire a single powerful blast that does 3D6*10 MD. In order to create such a powerful blast, the weapon uses a system of 3 capacitors that draw energy from an E-clip. These capacitors take 5 seconds to charge and hold the same power contained in a single eclip.
Damage: 3D6*10 MD
Range: 3000 feet
Payload: 1 shot/eclip, 2 shots from long
Weight: 11 lbs
Cost: varies; most operators capable of producing one will not sell it for less than 400,000 credits but parts cost about 100,000 credits.
* +2 to strike on aimed shots
**This makeshift weapon is prone to malfunction in a military environment; a natural to-hit roll of 2 means some or all of the capacitors burnt out and the weapon is damaged. A natural to-hit of 1 means the capacitors actually over heated and/or exploded doing 2D6 MD to everything in a 10’ radius. The weapon is !DC but if it is subjected to greater than 30 SDC damage it will malfunction on a natural to-hit f 5 or less until it is serviced by a field armorer.


The Wilks factory version of this weapon, the Wilks 999, is superficially similar to the 587 but it incorporates many of the components of the Wilks 1000 laser cannon. It operates similar to the original, makeshift version but is more reliable. The capacitors also take 5 seconds to charge.
Damage: 2D4*10+60MD
Range: 3000 feet
Payload: 1 shot per standard eclip, 2 shots per long
Weight: 14 lbs
Has integrated bipod and scope; +4 to-hit aimed
Cost:MSRP is 200,000 credits but it normally sells for 600,000 due to demand. Also, the weapon requires specialized eclips that allow for increased power draw. Normal eclips can be modified by an armored for about 500 credits (but are no longer usable in other energy weapons) or factory eclips can be purchased for 5 x the cost of standard eclips. The Wilks 999 CAN use standard eclips, but it requires at least 15 seconds to recharge the capacitors from unmodified eclips.


These weapons can fire up to 3 times in the first melee round (1 shot pre-charged on the capacitors + 2 more from a modified long Eclip). Max rate of fire in subsequent melee rounds is 2 shots per melee round due to reload and recharge requirements.

[jaymz]

Before I evaluate the weapons themselves I'm interested to know what the recent rule changes were?

[Pepsi Jedi]

...........

Is this a joke post?

If you're putting out 1080MDC at one target from surprise in one melee round... does the second melee round really matter overly much? lol.

The ATL-7 is widely thought to be twinkish already. Attempting to make it worse seem like an attempt to troll people for negative response.

[eliakon]

So we have some recent rules changes that make sniper characters more interesting and

<rest snipped>
Recent rules changes?
What rules changes are you talking about?
The only change that I am aware of that makes snipers more interesting is the change to the AP mechanic in Sovietski. And even that may or may not be universal and just apply to the Sovietski's amazing special-snowflake-rounds-of-doom. But since that only applies to AP ammunition it wouldn't be of any value to a laser.
Not to mention that this ill thought out rule is one of the most commonly houseruled away ones in the game that I am aware of (seriously I am not aware of anyone that uses the "AP means you are automatically dead" rule in Sovietski)

[Shark_Force]

perhaps he means his group have made rule changes for their table, which inspired him to homebrew this weapon. he's not sharing any rule changes they may have made, but that doesn't mean they didn't make them.

[shadrak]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

[shadrak]

Also, while not "new", DinoSwamp & Merc Adventures.

[eliakon]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

The other material isn't really "recent" as, for example, Stalking has been out for some 15 years...
If there is any other 'recent'(lets say... less than 2 years old?) material out there besides HoH that covers Stealth/Stalking/Targeting in any way, shape or form I can not think of it.

The AT programs, specifically the Marksman Advanced Training one does offer a tiny bit more versatility to snipers but I don't see how it change the calculus in any appreciable way honestly?
I mean sure, they allow you to make an aimed shot if you win initiative? Big deal.
And they let you "Calculate the variables"... so for two more actions in your set up you can try to get a +2 to strike (okay that's not to shabby), a 20% range boost (again not to shabby), and a boost to your critical range (which is frankly a joke. Many weapons already provide this, as do several forms of H2H training as you level up)
All of which requires some sort of perception roll... at a difficulty set by the GM at whim I guess?

It don't deal with the GI Joe Rule
It don't provide a means to allow deathblows via weapons
It don't allow improved critical range (seriously! The "bonus" is something many weapons already provide, and that many people get simply by leveling up! Let alone if the Vital Strikes skill is allowed.)
Hilariously it doesn't even provide the skill to use advanced sights and scopes (read sensors)

The other ATs are similarly "meh". And since you can only ever take 2 of them, in your life (Unless your one of the CS elite) and that they cost a boat load of skills to take... it means that your sniper is going to have to either
1)be totally dedicated to the ATs, which leaves no room for the other skills.
2) just take one AT and use what skills they have left to take the other skills and then hope that they have enough slots left over to do anything else

ALL of which is made even more moot by the fact that it is an open question on if you can use this with WP: Heavy Energy which any thing called "Cannon" is going to fall under"

[jaymz]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

You responding in a condescending manner like this...well enjoy your munchkin guns. Its not worth my time now.

[shadrak]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

You responding in a condescending manner like this...well enjoy your munchkin guns. Its not worth my time now.

Lol..."Munchkin Toy"

Given that it essentially restricts the user to fire no more than 2 x per melee I would hardly call it munchkin when the average damage per melee would not exceed the majority of weapons systems commonly available for player use...

But then, your responses are aggressive and disporportionate, so it would follow thst your argument would take that line...

For Elikon, use of snipers in rifts and use of the called shot has been, for the longest time, absurd...

Snipers never have a weapon system that can overcome the MDC capacity of any individual hit location and the system does not use random hit tables. And, yes, the GI Joe rule exacerbates this--I recommend only applying it to PCs...but there are a lot of holes in the MDC combst system like how a player wearing non-EBA can be hit with a plasma blast and walk away from it.

Anyway, MDC combat almost always comes down to sandblasting your opponent. Even using traps or land mines has little effect on an opponent because the damage to the armor is negligible and pass-thru rules are inadequate...

So, we end up with some REALLY COOL Advanced Training Packages that do almost nothing in game. The Marksmanship AT is actually less effective in game play than having 2 or 3 sharpshooting skills.

[jaymz]

But then, your responses are aggressive and disporportionate, so it would follow thst your argument would take that line...

Really? Below was my initial response and following two others you responded with an eyeroll to us....

Before I evaluate the weapons themselves I'm interested to know what the recent rule changes were?

You have an interesting definition of what an aggressive response is.....seeing as I just asked you to clarify what recent rule changes you were talking about.

As it turns out you were talking about things that are 3 to 10 years old so not recent at all, and not really rule changes per se.

Furthermore you are the one who responded with an eyeroll to those of us who had responded as if we should have known exactly what you were talking about even though you gave no detail whatsoever of what that was.

If you dont like people responding in kind to your own pisspoor responses then maybe you shouldn't give pisspoor responses.

As for the weapons themselves....yes, now knowing the not so recent so called rule changes you are talking about, they are munchkin toys.

Why? Snipers are not there to take out tanks or heavy armoured targets as you seem to think. Maybe you should do more research on what a sniper actually is and does because what you seem to think that may be is utterly off base.

[shadrak]

Or maybe saying that someone’s reference to rules changes are simply them putting out their house rules is not cool

[shadrak]

But then, after reading your responses on the forums in several threads, I see it is par for the course for you.

[jaymz]

Or maybe saying that someone’s reference to rules changes are simply them putting out their house rules is a dick move

Then may be that should be addressed to the person who said it since it wasn't me

[shadrak]

Maybe the eye roll wasn’t addressed to you and you decided to take up the cause...I didn’t quote you or use your name.

[jaymz]

Then again based on your own responses.....well....you're coming after me for something I didn't say so that's on you.....yet you want to accuse me of certain behaviour.....nice job.....

[jaymz]

No you just eyerolked in general at everyone since you dont specify who you were addressing.

Seems to be a theme with you. Don't actually say what your talking about. Don't say who you are addressing. Furthermore you did single me out for aggressive responses neither of which my first two responses were really. Keep at it though, you might actually get there eventually.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

You responding in a condescending manner like this...well enjoy your munchkin guns. Its not worth my time now.

Lol..."Munchkin Toy"

Given that it essentially restricts the user to fire no more than 2 x per melee I would hardly call it munchkin when the average damage per melee would not exceed the majority of weapons systems commonly available for player use...

What other man portable weapon is putting out 540-720 MDC per round? Your one rifle is doing 3D6X10 per shot

Cracking open World book 11:

The main cannon on a CS Mark VII Slayer does 1D6X10

the CTX Linebacker heavy assault tank's main cannons do 1D6X10, there are two of them but they're not fire linked though each gunner can fire at the same target so you "Could" Get 2D6X10

the CTX 52 skysweeper main cannon is 1D6X10, but again two can shoot the same target for 2D6X10

Even the CS Firestorm's rail gun turrets, with two mile range, only do 3D4X10

The Death Bringer APC's main cannon 1D6X10

Skylifter can hit with a double shot for 2D6X10

These are all massive tanks or flying fortresses.

None of the above weapons can even get CLOSE To your one rifle.

Out of the entire book there was only one weapon system I found that equaled or bettered your single 11lbs rifle. That vehicle takes over 112 people just to crew it, not counting the 34 more crew in the attached transports, and 782 other troops, it's 76 feet high, 104 feet wide, 240 feet long, and weighs 1250 tons, and cost over a billion credits.

And it was the one vehicle that had a single weapon system that could beat your single rifle.

So can you please explain to me how your rifle, doing three times the average MAIN CANNON Damage of multiple tanks and flying fortresses, and exceeding all those other vehicle weapons systems above, and only being able to be bested by a 1250 ton flying superfortress that costs over a billion credits.... is not munchkin?

This is an honest query, as you don't seem to comprehend what you're trying to pass off as a common weapon here.

[shadrak]

The intent of the weapon system is to make giving up half of your skills for a Marksman AT make a little more sense. The damage from a single shot is 80-140 and, on average, will be 110 points.

Firing twice in a melee round means an average damage of 220.

Compare to a CS trooper with 6 melee attacks firing a C-29...average of 200 MD with a range from 60-360 MD.

Compare to currently available sniper rifles in CS and general inventory...

Why would you ever be a sniper if Rifts game physics were real... you wouldn’t....


You just get the biggest gun, most powerful sword, and heaviest armor you can and close the distance and slug it out with your opponent never bothering to aim (since non-wild, unaimed shots have a 3 in 4 chance of hitting with no bonus and will normally hit 18-19 times out of 20 regardless of range or size/obscurity of the target)...

So, in order to make long range, aimed shots effective in game (since a glitter boy is a better sniper than a sniper), I think it is appropriate to give a sniper a weapon that justifies their training and role.

[shadrak]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

You responding in a condescending manner like this...well enjoy your munchkin guns. Its not worth my time now.

Lol..."Munchkin Toy"

Given that it essentially restricts the user to fire no more than 2 x per melee I would hardly call it munchkin when the average damage per melee would not exceed the majority of weapons systems commonly available for player use...

What other man portable weapon is putting out 540-720 MDC per round? Your one rifle is doing 3D6X10 per shot

Cracking open World book 11:

The main cannon on a CS Mark VII Slayer does 1D6X10

the CTX Linebacker heavy assault tank's main cannons do 1D6X10, there are two of them but they're not fire linked though each gunner can fire at the same target so you "Could" Get 2D6X10

the CTX 52 skysweeper main cannon is 1D6X10, but again two can shoot the same target for 2D6X10

Even the CS Firestorm's rail gun turrets, with two mile range, only do 3D4X10

The Death Bringer APC's main cannon 1D6X10

Skylifter can hit with a double shot for 2D6X10

These are all massive tanks or flying fortresses.

None of the above weapons can even get CLOSE To your one rifle.

Out of the entire book there was only one weapon system I found that equaled or bettered your single 11lbs rifle. That vehicle takes over 112 people just to crew it, not counting the 34 more crew in the attached transports, and 782 other troops, it's 76 feet high, 104 feet wide, 240 feet long, and weighs 1250 tons, and cost over a billion credits.

And it was the one vehicle that had a single weapon system that could beat your single rifle.

So can you please explain to me how your rifle, doing three times the average MAIN CANNON Damage of multiple tanks and flying fortresses, and exceeding all those other vehicle weapons systems above, and only being able to be bested by a 1250 ton flying superfortress that costs over a billion credits.... is not munchkin?

This is an honest query, as you don't seem to comprehend what you're trying to pass off as a common weapon here.

Does a C-29 not do 1D6x10 per shot?

[shadrak]

And, again, given that it takes 5 seconds to charge the capacitors for a single shot, so that is 2 shots per melee (10 seconds to charge and 5 seconds to make 2 shots...not counting reload time) total damage is less than the twelve pound C-29...

Or are you saying the C-29 is munchkin?

[shadrak]

You know. The 32,000 credit, 12 lb C-29 that can fire 8-16 blasts between reloads.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

You responding in a condescending manner like this...well enjoy your munchkin guns. Its not worth my time now.

Lol..."Munchkin Toy"

Given that it essentially restricts the user to fire no more than 2 x per melee I would hardly call it munchkin when the average damage per melee would not exceed the majority of weapons systems commonly available for player use...

What other man portable weapon is putting out 540-720 MDC per round? Your one rifle is doing 3D6X10 per shot

Cracking open World book 11:

The main cannon on a CS Mark VII Slayer does 1D6X10

the CTX Linebacker heavy assault tank's main cannons do 1D6X10, there are two of them but they're not fire linked though each gunner can fire at the same target so you "Could" Get 2D6X10

the CTX 52 skysweeper main cannon is 1D6X10, but again two can shoot the same target for 2D6X10

Even the CS Firestorm's rail gun turrets, with two mile range, only do 3D4X10

The Death Bringer APC's main cannon 1D6X10

Skylifter can hit with a double shot for 2D6X10

These are all massive tanks or flying fortresses.

None of the above weapons can even get CLOSE To your one rifle.

Out of the entire book there was only one weapon system I found that equaled or bettered your single 11lbs rifle. That vehicle takes over 112 people just to crew it, not counting the 34 more crew in the attached transports, and 782 other troops, it's 76 feet high, 104 feet wide, 240 feet long, and weighs 1250 tons, and cost over a billion credits.

And it was the one vehicle that had a single weapon system that could beat your single rifle.

So can you please explain to me how your rifle, doing three times the average MAIN CANNON Damage of multiple tanks and flying fortresses, and exceeding all those other vehicle weapons systems above, and only being able to be bested by a 1250 ton flying superfortress that costs over a billion credits.... is not munchkin?

This is an honest query, as you don't seem to comprehend what you're trying to pass off as a common weapon here.

Does a C-29 not do 1D6x10 per shot?

It does not do 3D6X10 per shot. A lvl 1 grunt with your weapon can shoot 3 times a round, with out taking boxing or getting any bonus attacks.
So that's a possible 540 per round by the lvl 1 grunt. (4 melee actions. You fire your first two, reload with your 3rd and fire your fourth.)

Your gun is doing three times the average damage of a tank's main cannon. You say it's to justify a sniper, but it's not. It's just a twink weapon.

With the advent of MDC armor, snipers don't get one shot one kills on unarmored opponits with RAW. You either wait for them to take off the armor, or you do something else.

It's an aspect of the game. Does it make snipers less useful against MDC foes? yes. But kevin's systems have never been 'realistic' they're built on movie tropes where heroes can take 5 or 10 gunshots and walk off in the 3rd reel with a smile on their face proclaiming "only a fleshwound" before they get to hitpoints.

MDC Armor is much the same A person in average CS Combat armor can take multiple hits from a tank and live. That's just part of the game.

In a game where tanks are doing 1D6X10 to 2D6X10 for blasts from their main cannon, and you start handing out 11lbs rifles that do 3D6X10 per shot, you're changing a variable.

Why wouldn't the tank builders just strap a few of those rifles to the top of the tank and use the tank's nuclear power system to fire them? lol

It's a munchkin weapon you're trying to justify by going "Snipers aren't deadly in Rifts, RAW"

Well they can be, against unarmored targets. But your head canon of shooting one rifle and utterly killing a foe per every pull of the trigger is NOT the game we're discussing here. That's just not how rifts works. Unless you're shooting SDC targets with MDC weapons (Where in sniper rifles work quite well, but you don't need 54000sdc per shot to pull it off. )

[HWalsh]

The intent of the weapon system is to make giving up half of your skills for a Marksman AT make a little more sense. The damage from a single shot is 80-140 and, on average, will be 110 points.

Firing twice in a melee round means an average damage of 220.

Compare to a CS trooper with 6 melee attacks firing a C-29...average of 200 MD with a range from 60-360 MD.

Compare to currently available sniper rifles in CS and general inventory...

Why would you ever be a sniper if Rifts game physics were real... you wouldn’t....


You just get the biggest gun, most powerful sword, and heaviest armor you can and close the distance and slug it out with your opponent never bothering to aim (since non-wild, unaimed shots have a 3 in 4 chance of hitting with no bonus and will normally hit 18-19 times out of 20 regardless of range or size/obscurity of the target)...

So, in order to make long range, aimed shots effective in game (since a glitter boy is a better sniper than a sniper), I think it is appropriate to give a sniper a weapon that justifies their training and role.

You're comparing a massive, vehicle (Power Armor) mounted weapon that requires a special system to even properly fire to a dude with a rifle.

That's a poor comparison.

Honestly snipers shouldn't be the be-all end-all of ranged combat.

This isn't Call of Duty where snipers are virtual Gods.

[shadrak]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

You responding in a condescending manner like this...well enjoy your munchkin guns. Its not worth my time now.

Lol..."Munchkin Toy"

Given that it essentially restricts the user to fire no more than 2 x per melee I would hardly call it munchkin when the average damage per melee would not exceed the majority of weapons systems commonly available for player use...

What other man portable weapon is putting out 540-720 MDC per round? Your one rifle is doing 3D6X10 per shot

Cracking open World book 11:

The main cannon on a CS Mark VII Slayer does 1D6X10

the CTX Linebacker heavy assault tank's main cannons do 1D6X10, there are two of them but they're not fire linked though each gunner can fire at the same target so you "Could" Get 2D6X10

the CTX 52 skysweeper main cannon is 1D6X10, but again two can shoot the same target for 2D6X10

Even the CS Firestorm's rail gun turrets, with two mile range, only do 3D4X10

The Death Bringer APC's main cannon 1D6X10

Skylifter can hit with a double shot for 2D6X10

These are all massive tanks or flying fortresses.

None of the above weapons can even get CLOSE To your one rifle.

Out of the entire book there was only one weapon system I found that equaled or bettered your single 11lbs rifle. That vehicle takes over 112 people just to crew it, not counting the 34 more crew in the attached transports, and 782 other troops, it's 76 feet high, 104 feet wide, 240 feet long, and weighs 1250 tons, and cost over a billion credits.

And it was the one vehicle that had a single weapon system that could beat your single rifle.

So can you please explain to me how your rifle, doing three times the average MAIN CANNON Damage of multiple tanks and flying fortresses, and exceeding all those other vehicle weapons systems above, and only being able to be bested by a 1250 ton flying superfortress that costs over a billion credits.... is not munchkin?

This is an honest query, as you don't seem to comprehend what you're trying to pass off as a common weapon here.

And check your eyes....absolute max this weapon could ever do in a single round is a 1 in 6*6*6*6*6*6*6*6*6 chance of doing 540 (not 720) damage for a first round, one in the chamber fight...with the average damage being 300 for that first round across 3 shots and a 1 in 10 chance of the weapon malfunctioning on each shot...

And without a precharged weapon you are talking am average f 200 MD the entire round

With the factory version the malfunctions go away but your max with a precharged weapon is 3 shots doing 140 each or 3 shots with an average of 110 (420 max, 330 average) and, after first strike, 280 max with a 220 per melee round...


I don’t know huh??? you get 720

[shadrak]

The intent of the weapon system is to make giving up half of your skills for a Marksman AT make a little more sense. The damage from a single shot is 80-140 and, on average, will be 110 points.

Firing twice in a melee round means an average damage of 220.

Compare to a CS trooper with 6 melee attacks firing a C-29...average of 200 MD with a range from 60-360 MD.

Compare to currently available sniper rifles in CS and general inventory...

Why would you ever be a sniper if Rifts game physics were real... you wouldn’t....


You just get the biggest gun, most powerful sword, and heaviest armor you can and close the distance and slug it out with your opponent never bothering to aim (since non-wild, unaimed shots have a 3 in 4 chance of hitting with no bonus and will normally hit 18-19 times out of 20 regardless of range or size/obscurity of the target)...

So, in order to make long range, aimed shots effective in game (since a glitter boy is a better sniper than a sniper), I think it is appropriate to give a sniper a weapon that justifies their training and role.

You're comparing a massive, vehicle (Power Armor) mounted weapon that requires a special system to even properly fire to a dude with a rifle.

That's a poor comparison.

Honestly snipers shouldn't be the be-all end-all of ranged combat.

This isn't Call of Duty where snipers are virtual Gods.

Are you saying the C29 is massive.

[shadrak]

All this weapon does is bank 3 C-29 shots and hit once...

So this is no more powerful than any random CS grunt with a C-29 at level 4 with boxing.

[HWalsh]

The intent of the weapon system is to make giving up half of your skills for a Marksman AT make a little more sense. The damage from a single shot is 80-140 and, on average, will be 110 points.

Firing twice in a melee round means an average damage of 220.

Compare to a CS trooper with 6 melee attacks firing a C-29...average of 200 MD with a range from 60-360 MD.

Compare to currently available sniper rifles in CS and general inventory...

Why would you ever be a sniper if Rifts game physics were real... you wouldn’t....


You just get the biggest gun, most powerful sword, and heaviest armor you can and close the distance and slug it out with your opponent never bothering to aim (since non-wild, unaimed shots have a 3 in 4 chance of hitting with no bonus and will normally hit 18-19 times out of 20 regardless of range or size/obscurity of the target)...

So, in order to make long range, aimed shots effective in game (since a glitter boy is a better sniper than a sniper), I think it is appropriate to give a sniper a weapon that justifies their training and role.

You're comparing a massive, vehicle (Power Armor) mounted weapon that requires a special system to even properly fire to a dude with a rifle.

That's a poor comparison.

Honestly snipers shouldn't be the be-all end-all of ranged combat.

This isn't Call of Duty where snipers are virtual Gods.

Are you saying the C29 is massive.

I was referring to your Glitterboy comparison.

Here's the truth, that you may not like.

Snipers do less damage than grunts.

They are good at hitting specific, small, targets primarily. They should not, and do not, do as much damage as an infantry member unloading a full 6 shots into a target.

Not even close.

You are really defensive though, and it feels like you have a personal stake in this.

So, I'm going to ask in good faith, "What is your motivation behind this thread?"

Is it that you made a sniper and feel it lacks what you wanted it to have? If that's it, then it's okay, but you seem to be taking this super personally.

[shadrak]

Sniper rifles are capable of greater range, penetration, and damage than assault rifles...

In Rifts penetration is a non-issue...you only have damage...

So you create a weapon that is analogous....and, in order to do so, you increase damage...

But to keep standard weapons relevant, you limit rate of fire

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sniper possibilities with HoH and new options with recent releases involving stealth/stalking/targeting

.*rolls eyes*

You responding in a condescending manner like this...well enjoy your munchkin guns. Its not worth my time now.

Lol..."Munchkin Toy"

Given that it essentially restricts the user to fire no more than 2 x per melee I would hardly call it munchkin when the average damage per melee would not exceed the majority of weapons systems commonly available for player use...

What other man portable weapon is putting out 540-720 MDC per round? Your one rifle is doing 3D6X10 per shot

Cracking open World book 11:

The main cannon on a CS Mark VII Slayer does 1D6X10

the CTX Linebacker heavy assault tank's main cannons do 1D6X10, there are two of them but they're not fire linked though each gunner can fire at the same target so you "Could" Get 2D6X10

the CTX 52 skysweeper main cannon is 1D6X10, but again two can shoot the same target for 2D6X10

Even the CS Firestorm's rail gun turrets, with two mile range, only do 3D4X10

The Death Bringer APC's main cannon 1D6X10

Skylifter can hit with a double shot for 2D6X10

These are all massive tanks or flying fortresses.

None of the above weapons can even get CLOSE To your one rifle.

Out of the entire book there was only one weapon system I found that equaled or bettered your single 11lbs rifle. That vehicle takes over 112 people just to crew it, not counting the 34 more crew in the attached transports, and 782 other troops, it's 76 feet high, 104 feet wide, 240 feet long, and weighs 1250 tons, and cost over a billion credits.

And it was the one vehicle that had a single weapon system that could beat your single rifle.

So can you please explain to me how your rifle, doing three times the average MAIN CANNON Damage of multiple tanks and flying fortresses, and exceeding all those other vehicle weapons systems above, and only being able to be bested by a 1250 ton flying superfortress that costs over a billion credits.... is not munchkin?

This is an honest query, as you don't seem to comprehend what you're trying to pass off as a common weapon here.

And check your eyes....absolute max this weapon could ever do in a single round is a 1 in 6*6*6*6*6*6*6*6*6 chance of doing 540 (not 720) damage for a first round, one in the chamber fight...with the average damage being 300 for that first round across 3 shots and a 1 in 10 chance of the weapon malfunctioning on each shot...

And without a precharged weapon you are talking am average f 200 MD the entire round

With the factory version the malfunctions go away but your max with a precharged weapon is 3 shots doing 140 each or 3 shots with an average of 110 (420 max, 330 average) and, after first strike, 280 max with a 220 per melee round...


I don’t know huh??? you get 720

Because some chars have more than 4 attacks per melee. The rifle gets 2 shots per Eclip. I'm talking about max output, as one needs to look at, when designing superpowered twink weapons. lol.

Even a lvl 1 grunt can easily start with 5 attacks per melee. Meaning he could pump out 4 shots of your weapon, with a single reload in the middle.
Before the melee round starts. You have the weapon at full charge
You fire once. Your first melee action
5 seconds to charge you fire again. Your second melee action
Third action is to reload
5 more seconds and you're at your fourth action, you fire your third shot.
5 Seconds to recharge and you're at the end of the melee and you fire your fourth shot, fifth action.

For a total of 4 shots at a possible of 180 damage, per equals 720.

Melee rounds aren't dictated to the milisecond. If the thing will recharge 3 times in 15 seconds you can use it. (That's ignoring that some how your gun is taking an entire clip into one shot, but getting two shots per clip. How's THAT work.)

But again. I didn't design the stupid thing. you did. lol

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sniper rifles are capable of greater range, penetration, and damage than assault rifles...

In Rifts penetration is a non-issue...you only have damage...

So you create a weapon that is analogous....and, in order to do so, you increase damage...

But to keep standard weapons relevant, you limit rate of fire

But when you create such weapons, many people will simply set them as their default.. then the other side develops stronger armor to keep from every lvl 1 grunt from getting instant kills per every pull of the trigger.. then you need to develop even more powerful guns... then more powerful armor..... then more powerful guns.

Your single weapon, designed by you, to get instant kills, is three times as strong per trigger pull than the canon on many main battle tanks. How is that not munchkin?

[HWalsh]

Sniper rifles are capable of greater range, penetration, and damage than assault rifles...

In Rifts penetration is a non-issue...you only have damage...

So you create a weapon that is analogous....and, in order to do so, you increase damage...

But to keep standard weapons relevant, you limit rate of fire

No, not in the real world they aren't.

A burst from an automatic weapon is more damaging than a sniper rifle in general. Penetration isn't good for damage, it is bad for damage. Damage comes from rounds tumbling when they fail to penetrate fully through the target.

Sniper damage is due to bullet placement more than anything else.

[HWalsh]

To put it this way:
I'll take a sniper round to the chest over a burst to the chest. I at least have a chance to survive the sniper round. If it through and throughs I'm likely to live with medical attention.

Three bullets ricocheting around inside if my body from three holes from a burst? I'm dead. Nothing anyone can do about it.

[shadrak]

My stake is that there are a lot of commenters that go “3D6x10 MD! OMG” that must not actually be playing the game...

Because MDC of common body armor is 90-110...which is the average amount of damage for a 3D6x10 MD weapon...

So, if they actually PLAY, they will find that the 6D6 limited sniper weapons will do an average of 20 MD...requiring 4-5 shots on a limb or 5-6 shots on the body of a target...assuming aimed Called Shots, that is 3 melee rounds to defeat a single target....


That same target, carrrying a 6D6 pulse rifle or 1D6x10 rifle will eliminate the firer within 1 to 1.5 melee rounds using standard shots.

So the only gameplay that makes sense with current options is to not use aimed shots...

Something anyone who is actually playing the game will see....every fight becomes a race to use every melee attack pulling a trigger as fast as you can and getting heavier armor and bigger guns...


Eventually, you just end up getting burst fire grenade launchers and powered body armor vs opponents doing the same thing...it gets boring and it ruins all of the newer options emerging with new books...


But, since people aren’t playing or they are content to shoot 8 times a melee and hope they hit more than their opponent, they don’t care that the new material is virtually unusable for gameplay

[shadrak]

To put it this way:
I'll take a sniper round to the chest over a burst to the chest. I at least have a chance to survive the sniper round. If it through and throughs I'm likely to live with medical attention.

Three bullets ricocheting around inside if my body from three holes from a burst? I'm dead. Nothing anyone can do about it.

I’ll put it this way...

If a guy firing a 3-round burst from an M4 at me had the same chance to hit as a sniper firing an M21 at me and neither could penetrate my Armor I would make the same decision...

And in a world like that there is no reason to have a sniper

[Pepsi Jedi]

My stake is that there are a lot of commenters that go “3D6x10 MD! OMG” that must not actually be playing the game...

Because MDC of common body armor is 90-110...which is the average amount of damage for a 3D6x10 MD weapon...

So, if they actually PLAY, they will find that the 6D6 limited sniper weapons will do an average of 20 MD...requiring 4-5 shots on a limb or 5-6 shots on the body of a target...assuming aimed Called Shots, that is 3 melee rounds to defeat a single target....


That same target, carrrying a 6D6 pulse rifle or 1D6x10 rifle will eliminate the firer within 1 to 1.5 melee rounds using standard shots.

So the only gameplay that makes sense with current options is to not use aimed shots...

Something anyone who is actually playing the game will see....every fight becomes a race to use every melee attack pulling a trigger as fast as you can and getting heavier armor and bigger guns...


Eventually, you just end up getting burst fire grenade launchers and powered body armor vs opponents doing the same thing...it gets boring and it ruins all of the newer options emerging with new books...


But, since people aren’t playing or they are content to shoot 8 times a melee and hope they hit more than their opponent, they don’t care that the new material is virtually unusable for gameplay

In short...

Welcome to Rifts.

Yes... it takes time to wittle through armor.

That's how it's designed. That's how Kevin wants it.

ULTRA Hyper realistic combat is generally NOT what RolePLAYERS want. Because your char could simply be DROPPED in one melee action. (And Palladium char's take a few minutes to roll up)

Remember every weapon you have your enemies can have.

So at any point your enemy could fire this rifle at you, from concealment and poof one minute you're walking down the trail Next second your instant killed before you even know you're being shot at. Very 'real world' but VERY unsatisfying in an RPG.

"You're strolling through the forest" *The GM rolls a few dice" Shadrak, your char's armor is suddenly vaporized by a powerful blast and your char's dead. The rest of the party sees you utterly obliterated by one shot. Not that they know where it came from, as lasers are invisable and silent. What do the rest of you do, while Shadrak goes to get us all pizza??"

Doesn't sound too fun, huh?

[shadrak]

To put it this way:
I'll take a sniper round to the chest over a burst to the chest. I at least have a chance to survive the sniper round. If it through and throughs I'm likely to live with medical attention.

Three bullets ricocheting around inside if my body from three holes from a burst? I'm dead. Nothing anyone can do about it.

PS: you post implies legitimacy to some debunked urban myths about ballistic characteristics of rifle rounds. In case you are referring to those myths, that’s not how it works.

[shadrak]

My stake is that there are a lot of commenters that go “3D6x10 MD! OMG” that must not actually be playing the game...

Because MDC of common body armor is 90-110...which is the average amount of damage for a 3D6x10 MD weapon...

So, if they actually PLAY, they will find that the 6D6 limited sniper weapons will do an average of 20 MD...requiring 4-5 shots on a limb or 5-6 shots on the body of a target...assuming aimed Called Shots, that is 3 melee rounds to defeat a single target....


That same target, carrrying a 6D6 pulse rifle or 1D6x10 rifle will eliminate the firer within 1 to 1.5 melee rounds using standard shots.

So the only gameplay that makes sense with current options is to not use aimed shots...

Something anyone who is actually playing the game will see....every fight becomes a race to use every melee attack pulling a trigger as fast as you can and getting heavier armor and bigger guns...


Eventually, you just end up getting burst fire grenade launchers and powered body armor vs opponents doing the same thing...it gets boring and it ruins all of the newer options emerging with new books...


But, since people aren’t playing or they are content to shoot 8 times a melee and hope they hit more than their opponent, they don’t care that the new material is virtually unusable for gameplay

In short...

Welcome to Rifts.

Yes... it takes time to wittle through armor.

That's how it's designed. That's how Kevin wants it.

ULTRA Hyper realistic combat is generally NOT what RolePLAYERS want. Because your char could simply be DROPPED in one melee action. (And Palladium char's take a few minutes to roll up)

Remember every weapon you have your enemies can have.

So at any point your enemy could fire this rifle at you, from concealment and poof one minute you're walking down the trail Next second your instant killed before you even know you're being shot at. Very 'real world' but VERY unsatisfying in an RPG.

"You're strolling through the forest" *The GM rolls a few dice" Shadrak, your char's armor is suddenly vaporized by a powerful blast and your char's dead. The rest of the party sees you utterly obliterated by one shot. Not that they know where it came from, as lasers are invisable and silent. What do the rest of you do, while Shadrak goes to get us all pizza??"

Doesn't sound too fun, huh?

Whittling away isn’t fun either when it takes 7 melee rounds to drop a target.

Armor is much more munchkin today than weapons are...especially given that you can stack armor and armor is relatively cheap compared to weapons

[Pepsi Jedi]

My stake is that there are a lot of commenters that go “3D6x10 MD! OMG” that must not actually be playing the game...

Because MDC of common body armor is 90-110...which is the average amount of damage for a 3D6x10 MD weapon...

So, if they actually PLAY, they will find that the 6D6 limited sniper weapons will do an average of 20 MD...requiring 4-5 shots on a limb or 5-6 shots on the body of a target...assuming aimed Called Shots, that is 3 melee rounds to defeat a single target....


That same target, carrrying a 6D6 pulse rifle or 1D6x10 rifle will eliminate the firer within 1 to 1.5 melee rounds using standard shots.

So the only gameplay that makes sense with current options is to not use aimed shots...

Something anyone who is actually playing the game will see....every fight becomes a race to use every melee attack pulling a trigger as fast as you can and getting heavier armor and bigger guns...


Eventually, you just end up getting burst fire grenade launchers and powered body armor vs opponents doing the same thing...it gets boring and it ruins all of the newer options emerging with new books...


But, since people aren’t playing or they are content to shoot 8 times a melee and hope they hit more than their opponent, they don’t care that the new material is virtually unusable for gameplay

In short...

Welcome to Rifts.

Yes... it takes time to wittle through armor.

That's how it's designed. That's how Kevin wants it.

ULTRA Hyper realistic combat is generally NOT what RolePLAYERS want. Because your char could simply be DROPPED in one melee action. (And Palladium char's take a few minutes to roll up)

Remember every weapon you have your enemies can have.

So at any point your enemy could fire this rifle at you, from concealment and poof one minute you're walking down the trail Next second your instant killed before you even know you're being shot at. Very 'real world' but VERY unsatisfying in an RPG.

"You're strolling through the forest" *The GM rolls a few dice" Shadrak, your char's armor is suddenly vaporized by a powerful blast and your char's dead. The rest of the party sees you utterly obliterated by one shot. Not that they know where it came from, as lasers are invisable and silent. What do the rest of you do, while Shadrak goes to get us all pizza??"

Doesn't sound too fun, huh?

Whittling away isn’t fun either when it takes 7 melee rounds to drop a target.

Armor is much more munchkin today than weapons are...especially given that you can stack armor and armor is relatively cheap compared to weapons

Well unless you're fighting a god it's unlikely to take 7 melee rounds to drop a target. I can take out a glitter boy in less than seven rounds.

Seven attacks maybe.

Still.

WELCOME TO RIFTS

Welcome to Palladium.

These are the mechanics of the game we're playing. Are they perfect? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

But they're the game we're playing, and that's how it works.

I'm betting if your GM started blowing off your char's head any time he opened his helmet to eat, You'd get pretty upset right? Or open his armor to pee?

[HWalsh]

My stake is that there are a lot of commenters that go “3D6x10 MD! OMG” that must not actually be playing the game...

You are, again, comparing a Glitterboy to a Sniper Rifle. I feel the need to remind you what the Glitterboy IS.

A Glitterboy is the pinnacle of powered armor from the Golden Age of man, that had higher technology than the world of Rifts currently has. Not only that, but the Glitterboy's Boomgun requires a system that involves an entire rocket engine and a strut system to safely fire. On top of that, a Glitterboy fires a cluster of flechette rounds. You are talking about being struck by a mega-powerful anti-tank weapon.

A Sniper Rifle should not compare, or even come close to that.

It's comparing a 50 cal rifle to an actual military grade artillery round.

Again: Snipers aren't there to do damage. They are there to get in, without being seen, take a distance position, and shoot at soft targets. If they aren't doing that they are support fire, helping their allies by pinging away armor. If there was a weapon the way you described it, then everyone would carry them into battle because they could get the same, if not more, damage from using it and have more actions remaining to do things like dodge or aim.

You can't compare a Glitterboy mounted weapon to a rifle. It isn't a fair comparison in the setting.

A setting, might I add, that ISN'T balanced.

ALSO

Did you note that there are a lack of actual snipers in Rifts? They aren't large parts of any military, even the Marksmen isn't a pure sniper, the reason is because in the world of Rifts snipers AREN'T terribly useful due to the last bit of MD armor rule. Even if somehow you got a weapon that did 300,000,000 MD, if the target was wearing an MD armored helmet and you shot them in the head they would survive. If they were behind two spaced pieces of plywood, or two panes of tempered glass, your shot wouldn't hit the target. Those are the realities that Snipers in Rifts have to face.

Snipers aren't combat gods.

[eliakon]

The problem here is what I pointed out.
That the skills required to be a top notch sniper preclude doing much else with out pulling a lot of shenanigans.
And that the mechanics of the setting just don't let snipers be the gods of the battlefield that they are in big co-op PvP video games which is where most people seem to get their information on snipers.
A sniper is super effective in Call of Duty, or Overwatch or the like... because in those games they can change the rules to make snipers weapons do massive amounts of damage, ignore armor and all the rest of the tricks that you can do to buff the damage.
The goal is to make that elusive headshot be a one-hit kill.
That's great for video games... but this isn't Call of Duty nor is it Overwatch or any other video game. And as such you simply aren't going to be doing the DPS via sniping.

The way that snipers are effective in Rifts is not by giving them massive weapons that pack the power of artillery into rifles... but by simply using them effectively in the roles that they can serve based on the way the local mechanics require them to.

Snipers are hideously effective Anti-Mecha fighters for instance. Since a well trained sniper can target and destroy sensitive (and low MDC) joints, crippling mecha to be destroyed by other forces.

Snipers are very good at taking out important external components of vehicles and armors. Why chew through all 800 MDC of a Glitterboy when you can shoot out the ammo-belt. Or you can target radar dishes, radio antenna, missile pods, sensor domes and the like.

Snipers are very effective when fighting supernatural foes as you can combine the very high damage of SDC weapons with specialized amunition to generate massive damage totals...that you can deliver via called shots to specific parts of the body.

[shadrak]

The problem here is what I pointed out.
That the skills required to be a top notch sniper preclude doing much else with out pulling a lot of shenanigans.
And that the mechanics of the setting just don't let snipers be the gods of the battlefield that they are in big co-op PvP video games which is where most people seem to get their information on snipers.
A sniper is super effective in Call of Duty, or Overwatch or the like... because in those games they can change the rules to make snipers weapons do massive amounts of damage, ignore armor and all the rest of the tricks that you can do to buff the damage.
The goal is to make that elusive headshot be a one-hit kill.
That's great for video games... but this isn't Call of Duty nor is it Overwatch or any other video game. And as such you simply aren't going to be doing the DPS via sniping.

The way that snipers are effective in Rifts is not by giving them massive weapons that pack the power of artillery into rifles... but by simply using them effectively in the roles that they can serve based on the way the local mechanics require them to.

Snipers are hideously effective Anti-Mecha fighters for instance. Since a well trained sniper can target and destroy sensitive (and low MDC) joints, crippling mecha to be destroyed by other forces.

Snipers are very good at taking out important external components of vehicles and armors. Why chew through all 800 MDC of a Glitterboy when you can shoot out the ammo-belt. Or you can target radar dishes, radio antenna, missile pods, sensor domes and the like.

Snipers are very effective when fighting supernatural foes as you can combine the very high damage of SDC weapons with specialized amunition to generate massive damage totals...that you can deliver via called shots to specific parts of the body.

There are no single point of failure “joints” in Rifts mecha...not ones that have less than 70-100 MDC, anyway...

A sensor cluster would require an average of 4 direct, called shot hits on most Rifts Mecha

[shadrak]

My stake is that there are a lot of commenters that go “3D6x10 MD! OMG” that must not actually be playing the game...

You are, again, comparing a Glitterboy to a Sniper Rifle. I feel the need to remind you what the Glitterboy IS.

A Glitterboy is the pinnacle of powered armor from the Golden Age of man, that had higher technology than the world of Rifts currently has. Not only that, but the Glitterboy's Boomgun requires a system that involves an entire rocket engine and a strut system to safely fire. On top of that, a Glitterboy fires a cluster of flechette rounds. You are talking about being struck by a mega-powerful anti-tank weapon.

A Sniper Rifle should not compare, or even come close to that.

It's comparing a 50 cal rifle to an actual military grade artillery round.

Again: Snipers aren't there to do damage. They are there to get in, without being seen, take a distance position, and shoot at soft targets. If they aren't doing that they are support fire, helping their allies by pinging away armor. If there was a weapon the way you described it, then everyone would carry them into battle because they could get the same, if not more, damage from using it and have more actions remaining to do things like dodge or aim.

You can't compare a Glitterboy mounted weapon to a rifle. It isn't a fair comparison in the setting.

A setting, might I add, that ISN'T balanced.

ALSO

Did you note that there are a lack of actual snipers in Rifts? They aren't large parts of any military, even the Marksmen isn't a pure sniper, the reason is because in the world of Rifts snipers AREN'T terribly useful due to the last bit of MD armor rule. Even if somehow you got a weapon that did 300,000,000 MD, if the target was wearing an MD armored helmet and you shot them in the head they would survive. If they were behind two spaced pieces of plywood, or two panes of tempered glass, your shot wouldn't hit the target. Those are the realities that Snipers in Rifts have to face.

Snipers aren't combat gods.

My point is that Rifts keeps putting out rules for snipers and there is no use for a sniper in the Rifts system without either a high damage single shot weapon or house rules that allow for penetration...


My most effective sniper weapon for use in Rifts to date is a TW Death Bolt Bolt Action Rifle...

But, again, with no AR and no penetration and with even the smallest critical item on a target having in excess of 60 or 70 MDC, there is no point...


And so many people reference Call of Duty...

I don’t know why, as I have never played...

There is no way to utilize a sniper in a reasonable manner within the current rules set...and it’s not just marksmen, it isn’t any combat scenario that relies on killing an opponent quickly...

For example, killing 2 guards at a guard post and sneaking into a fortified town....its impossible if the guards are wearing full body armor.

[HWalsh]

The problem here is what I pointed out.
That the skills required to be a top notch sniper preclude doing much else with out pulling a lot of shenanigans.
And that the mechanics of the setting just don't let snipers be the gods of the battlefield that they are in big co-op PvP video games which is where most people seem to get their information on snipers.
A sniper is super effective in Call of Duty, or Overwatch or the like... because in those games they can change the rules to make snipers weapons do massive amounts of damage, ignore armor and all the rest of the tricks that you can do to buff the damage.
The goal is to make that elusive headshot be a one-hit kill.
That's great for video games... but this isn't Call of Duty nor is it Overwatch or any other video game. And as such you simply aren't going to be doing the DPS via sniping.

The way that snipers are effective in Rifts is not by giving them massive weapons that pack the power of artillery into rifles... but by simply using them effectively in the roles that they can serve based on the way the local mechanics require them to.

Snipers are hideously effective Anti-Mecha fighters for instance. Since a well trained sniper can target and destroy sensitive (and low MDC) joints, crippling mecha to be destroyed by other forces.

Snipers are very good at taking out important external components of vehicles and armors. Why chew through all 800 MDC of a Glitterboy when you can shoot out the ammo-belt. Or you can target radar dishes, radio antenna, missile pods, sensor domes and the like.

Snipers are very effective when fighting supernatural foes as you can combine the very high damage of SDC weapons with specialized amunition to generate massive damage totals...that you can deliver via called shots to specific parts of the body.

There are no single point of failure “joints” in Rifts mecha...not ones that have less than 70-100 MDC, anyway...

A sensor cluster would require an average of 4 direct, called shot hits on most Rifts Mecha

Depends on the Power Armor:

6d6 MDC averages 21 MD per shot. 1d6x10 averages 40 MD per shot.

You won't be disabling them in one shot, but in 2-3? Yeah you can do some serious damage to Power Armor. Things like taking out Jet Thrusters (Arora Blazer) or taking out an arm or a hand of a Beach Stormer in 1-2 shots, blowing off any weapon from a Blue Boy, blowing off the hands or maneuvering thrusters from a Blue Hawk, any weapon from a Couger, the leg off of a Coyote, a Defender's grenade launcher... I mean... Those are just examples from the first few PAs in Northern Gun 2. You can mess with enemies a lot. You aren't EVER going to one shot them, that would be munchkin and extremely overpowered.

[HWalsh]

My point is that Rifts keeps putting out rules for snipers and there is no use for a sniper in the Rifts system without either a high damage single shot weapon or house rules that allow for penetration...


My most effective sniper weapon for use in Rifts to date is a TW Death Bolt Bolt Action Rifle...

But, again, with no AR and no penetration and with even the smallest critical item on a target having in excess of 60 or 70 MDC, there is no point...


And so many people reference Call of Duty...

I don’t know why, as I have never played...

There is no way to utilize a sniper in a reasonable manner within the current rules set...and it’s not just marksmen, it isn’t any combat scenario that relies on killing an opponent quickly...

For example, killing 2 guards at a guard post and sneaking into a fortified town....its impossible if the guards are wearing full body armor.

A lone sniper isn't going to take out two armed guards and sneak in. Even with penetration rules. Being a sniper doesn't make you a massive god of combat. It is a specialized role for a specialized situation. The above is the kind of stunt a super spy pulls off, not a sniper.

Here is what a sniper can do in Rifts:

Hide, wait for the commander to take off their armor to take a whiz, shoot them and move.

Act as fire support for allies by safely (read: being out of danger) hitting vulnerable points on enemies to add damage. They aren't going to take them out, but it is a team game, and they can help the team.

Act as a forward scout by scouting out the enemy's capabilities and marking targets.

Take on supernatural enemies with SDC weapons that they are vulnerable to. This is especially useful against Vampires.

Act as fire support by taking out enemy weapons.

What you won't do is take out multiple enemies by stealth or be the highest DPS on your team.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There are ways to utilize a sniper in a reasonable manner with the current ruleset. Just not a balls to the wall battlefield. Because Snipers rarely are in balls to the wall battle conditions. You wouldn't waste them in such things.

A rifts sniper with a simple laser rifle with a scope can be of -plenty- of use.

You use stealth to get close to an enemy camp. You set up in hidden location. You wait.... like snipers do, for your shot. Is your shot someone in full heavy MD Armor, sealed up? No.

It's when the guy takes off his helmet to address the troops and you pull the trigger from 2,000 feet away and the only sound is a click of the trigger (Which a sniper would likely oil/file down to prevent even the click) and the guy's head turns into red mist. Remember rifts lasers are invisable and make no sound UNLESS you TURN ON THE LITTLE PEW PEW PEW Sound machine.

Or you wait till someone's taking a pee and you put the laser blast through that part of the open armor.

Or you wait till the officers are out of armor.

Or what have you. A shot from even a low powered MD weapon is instant kill on an unarmored foe. You can use it as anti material. Purposefully taking out things such as... The glitterboy's cannon. Turning it into just a shiny set of power armor. (I target the gun when I fight um.) And snipers in rifts can be utilized in other aspects. Such as.. Sniper TEAMS... where 2 to 4 snipers cordinate. They line up their shots. Aim at the same thing and fire in tandum. Where in 2-4+ shots are htting the exact same thing at the same time (Or one after another near enough to be instantanious) Four guys shooting at your armored head at the same time is a quick way to have no head. (Sort of like modern urban snipers might work in a team, where three snipers shoot tempered glass to shater it and a half second later the 4th guy puts a round through the guy behind the glass. All 4 are shooting at "The same thing" to overcome the 'armor' of the glass which might stop, slow or deflect a single round.)

Can one shot take out an armored head in rifts? Uncommon. But can a team all line up and aim at the same head then the commander do a count down, and all 4 time their shot so that same enemy takes 4 in the head? Yep. The first three wittle through the helmet (GI JOE RULE!!) then the 4th takes him down.

What many people are pointing out, is your inability to grasp the setting.

A random grunt in full MD armor with an MD rifle in RIFTs isn't just a grunt. he's the equivalent of a slow moving TANK in our battlefield. His armor is that of a tank and his damage output is that of a tank. Infact a simple laser pistol can core a(modern times) tank in a shot or two.

So what you're finding frustration with, A sniper not being able to simply DROP a troop in full armor.... is not some sort of flaw. it's showing what ultra high tech does to the battlefield. It turns the grunts, each into bipedal tanks.

In effect you're trying to destroy a TANK (Rifts MD armor) with a rifle.

You can shoot a(Current day) assault rifle at a(Current day) tank all you want but the tank is just going to pivot it's cannon and end your existence.

In some what the same fashion, shooting at someone in MD Armor is like shooting at a tank. It can't run at 65 mph (In common unpowered armor) but the armor value is still there.

Just like you can much easier blow the head off the tank's top gunner who's out side the tank.. you can blow the unarmored head off someone in rifts armor. You just have to wait for them to stick that fleshy squishy part out.

So while you're not 'wrong' in that Rifts snipers are more limited. That's due to armor turning the troops into little tanks. Not that a sniper has NO value.

They line up the shot and wait. Every biological in the game has to pee, poop and eat. A real sniper just waits for that moment and pulls the trigger then. GM's often forget you can't 'live' in your armor. Even a few days will start seriously degrading your helth. Everyone takes it off, and THAT is when the sniper pulls the trigger and your head simply dissapears.

YOU seem to want someone with an 11lbs rifle to be able to take out a TANK with one shot, and have 3 or more shots to take out three or more tanks in the same melee round. THAT is not what a 'sniper' does. (Though some do use .50s to take out engine blocks and what have you. Again "Anti-material", but they don't take out TANK's with a single shot)

[eliakon]

The problem here is what I pointed out.
That the skills required to be a top notch sniper preclude doing much else with out pulling a lot of shenanigans.
And that the mechanics of the setting just don't let snipers be the gods of the battlefield that they are in big co-op PvP video games which is where most people seem to get their information on snipers.
A sniper is super effective in Call of Duty, or Overwatch or the like... because in those games they can change the rules to make snipers weapons do massive amounts of damage, ignore armor and all the rest of the tricks that you can do to buff the damage.
The goal is to make that elusive headshot be a one-hit kill.
That's great for video games... but this isn't Call of Duty nor is it Overwatch or any other video game. And as such you simply aren't going to be doing the DPS via sniping.

The way that snipers are effective in Rifts is not by giving them massive weapons that pack the power of artillery into rifles... but by simply using them effectively in the roles that they can serve based on the way the local mechanics require them to.

Snipers are hideously effective Anti-Mecha fighters for instance. Since a well trained sniper can target and destroy sensitive (and low MDC) joints, crippling mecha to be destroyed by other forces.

Snipers are very good at taking out important external components of vehicles and armors. Why chew through all 800 MDC of a Glitterboy when you can shoot out the ammo-belt. Or you can target radar dishes, radio antenna, missile pods, sensor domes and the like.

Snipers are very effective when fighting supernatural foes as you can combine the very high damage of SDC weapons with specialized amunition to generate massive damage totals...that you can deliver via called shots to specific parts of the body.

There are no single point of failure “joints” in Rifts mecha...not ones that have less than 70-100 MDC, anyway...

Rifts Canada begs to differ on that. Since it explicitly mentions targeting the knee of the UAR-1 Enforcer as one of its weak points...
Just because something isn't listed doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means the GM will have to figure it out.
If I try and shoot out the windshield of a Big Boss ATV I don't have to reduce its main body to 0, and yet the stat block doesn't include the MDC of each window...

A sensor cluster would require an average of 4 direct, called shot hits on most Rifts Mecha

Um what?
The average MDC of a sensor (or other similar things like spotlights, antenna, and such) on a mecha is between 7 and 15. Some of the really large and robust ones go as high as 30-50.
If you can't take that out in one shot with the weapons available now then I'm sorry you have bigger problems than just needing a bigger gun.

[jaymz]

The ability to score effective and potentially better damaging attacks should be tied to the snipers skills and training not just giving him a portable anti tank cannon...

[jaymz]

Here are "abilities" I came up with to make snipers more effective as an example (with some tweaking and input from Pepsi Jedi):

Increased Accuracy

- for every 4 points of P.P. the sniper is a +1 to strike on an aimed shot (Minimum +3 with a minimum P.P. requirement of 14 for the occ)
- reduce called shot penalties on "small" targets by 1 for every 3 levels of experience.

Increased Lethality

- Critical hit on a natural 19+ at level 1, 18+ at level 4, 17+ at level 7, 16+ at level 10, 15+ at level 13
- Super critical hit on a natural 20 (x3 damage instead of x2) at level 8

Fire For Maximum Effect

The sniper can spend an entire melee (all attacks for that round) aiming to get the "perfect shot" for the following benefits:
- maximum damage from the weapon, this means potentially double max damage on a critical hit and triple maximum damage on a super critical hit
- The last bit of armour protection rule on page 355 (aka the GI JOE rule) does not apply to hits taken from this ability

Reach Out And Touch Someone

- increases the effective range of the weapon being used by 10% per level of experience (so 2000ft is 2200ft at level 1, 2400ft at level 2, so on and so forth)
- reduce penalties of firing beyond effective range by 1 for every 4 levels of experience

To ME the above is how a Sniper is effective at eliminating targets....NOT by giving him an anti-tank cannon damaging weapon...

To each their own though I suppose...

[Axelmania]

Also, while not "new", DinoSwamp & Merc Adventures.

I've never managed to find any actual rules regarding that vague SDC guns vs MDC eyeballs idea. I swear I remember reading someone talking about them long ago but can't remember where or why. Maybe it was a dream?

The right column of page 12 mentions head shots to the eye, but that's following mention of "precision MD weapons" 2 paragaphs prior.