Revisiting the ATL-7 and Naruni Sniper cannon

[Axelmania]

With the advent of MDC armor, snipers don't get one shot one kills on unarmored opponits with RAW. You either wait for them to take off the armor, or you do something else.

I have some insight from my days of playing Tribes 2 that I think would extend to the use of lasers with missile rifles as a paired sniping tool.

Back in the days of T2, the problem was that as a sniper in light armor (only light armor could wield the sniper rifle) even if you had a full energy pack (energy pack was mandatory to equip the laser sniper rifle) a fully charged blast, even when shooting the ideal spot (head) for maximum damage... against the weakest foe (light armor, no force field pack) would not be enough to kill them if they were at full health and not previously damaged.

Light armor guys who suffered injuries from battles/falls would constantly get repaired (repair packs existed to heal armors) or use their health packs, to avoid these instant-deaths from snipers.

So the problem was, that as soon as you sniped them, the health going down would warn them about the attack, and while you waited for your energy pack to recharge (if you fired off a 2nd shot it would be very weak, damage proportionate to energy levels) they could basically run for cover.

The solution to this, since other weapons (chaingun, plasma, grenade launcher) didn't have sniper-equivalent range or accuracy, was the spinfusor disk.

That was a non-instant weapon so there was a delay between when you shot and when the disk hit an enemy, it was not instant light-speed like a sniper rifle. Firing it after was pointless (spinfusor was a close range weapon for the most part) since they would've moved out of the way to spoil the aim of followup sniping.

But what you could do, is fire it BEFORE, and then as the disc was traveling to the enemy, switch to your sniper rifle, and try to time it so that you fired your laser beam into their head JUST as the spinfusor disk arrived.

If you fired the laser too early: they would move and the spinfusor disc would miss. If it wasn't too far off and there was a wall behind them (or ground if you were firing downward) it might still kil lthem because spinfusor disks had a blast radius, but obviously a direct hit from a disc (ideally at head) is best.

If you fired too late, then the disc hitting them might knock them aside and spoil your aim, and as soon as they got shot they'd start moving around and be harder to snipe. You could still snipe a moving foe, but it's harder, and they'd be trying to find cover even if they were dumb enough to stand around in the open not moving.

So anyway, back to a Glitter Boy...

The ideal thing would to snipe with a slow-speed missile, so that it won't hit immediately and you have the time to switch to a laser rifle (less time if you're strong enough to dual wield) and then fire as a follow-up attack, timing it so that you hit with the laser destroying their armor so that the blast radius from the missile will then finish off the unprotected SDC form which remains behind via the GI Joe rule.

Arguably both might count as surprise attacks (no dodge) if you could time them to land at the same time. Arrows might work a similar way, if you fired upward at a 45 degree arc and it took several seconds for the arrow to land, you might time an instant-damage laser attack to hit at the same moment!

[HWalsh]

Here are "abilities" I came up with to make snipers more effective as an example (with some tweaking and input from Pepsi Jedi):

Increased Accuracy

- for every 4 points of P.P. the sniper is a +1 to strike on an aimed shot (Minimum +3 with a minimum P.P. requirement of 14 for the occ)
- reduce called shot penalties on "small" targets by 1 for every 3 levels of experience.

Increased Lethality

- Critical hit on a natural 19+ at level 1, 18+ at level 4, 17+ at level 7, 16+ at level 10, 15+ at level 13
- Super critical hit on a natural 20 (x3 damage instead of x2) at level 8

Fire For Maximum Effect

The sniper can spend an entire melee (all attacks for that round) aiming to get the "perfect shot" for the following benefits:
- maximum damage from the weapon, this means potentially double max damage on a critical hit and triple maximum damage on a super critical hit
- The last bit of armour protection rule on page 355 (aka the GI JOE rule) does not apply to hits taken from this ability

Reach Out And Touch Someone

- increases the effective range of the weapon being used by 10% per level of experience (so 2000ft is 2200ft at level 1, 2400ft at level 2, so on and so forth)
- reduce penalties of firing beyond effective range by 1 for every 4 levels of experience

To ME the above is how a Sniper is effective at eliminating targets....NOT by giving him an anti-tank cannon damaging weapon...

To each their own though I suppose...

Overpowered.

[shadrak]

Here are "abilities" I came up with to make snipers more effective as an example (with some tweaking and input from Pepsi Jedi):

Increased Accuracy

- for every 4 points of P.P. the sniper is a +1 to strike on an aimed shot (Minimum +3 with a minimum P.P. requirement of 14 for the occ)
- reduce called shot penalties on "small" targets by 1 for every 3 levels of experience.

Increased Lethality

- Critical hit on a natural 19+ at level 1, 18+ at level 4, 17+ at level 7, 16+ at level 10, 15+ at level 13
- Super critical hit on a natural 20 (x3 damage instead of x2) at level 8

Fire For Maximum Effect

The sniper can spend an entire melee (all attacks for that round) aiming to get the "perfect shot" for the following benefits:
- maximum damage from the weapon, this means potentially double max damage on a critical hit and triple maximum damage on a super critical hit
- The last bit of armour protection rule on page 355 (aka the GI JOE rule) does not apply to hits taken from this ability

Reach Out And Touch Someone

- increases the effective range of the weapon being used by 10% per level of experience (so 2000ft is 2200ft at level 1, 2400ft at level 2, so on and so forth)
- reduce penalties of firing beyond effective range by 1 for every 4 levels of experience

To ME the above is how a Sniper is effective at eliminating targets....NOT by giving him an anti-tank cannon damaging weapon...

To each their own though I suppose...

I have played with similar house rules, but they are house rules and not umiversalizable. Your version might work better than mine with the 3x crit... I had used a rule where the sniper could double damage with a capacitor for each melee round they charged their weapon, but rolling 12D6 after 3 rounds of aiming and getting 30 damage sucked for players and didn’t meet the requirement.

I just have to make sure that the NOA is limited...

Actually, as I look at it, this rule might work perfectly...thank you... I had thought of usingOne Life one shot one kill, but that gets complicated...

You should see if Palladium might be interested in publishing that rule.

[shadrak]

In an SDC environment I had a rule where a shot to the TZone was a critical direct to the HP. Hitting that sized target was a -8 or -10 to hit....


Unfortunately, there is no HP for armor or MDC opponents

[Axelmania]

Best snipers just apply their strike bonuses to achieve crit numbers by concentrating 1 melee round using Martial Art Technique "One Shot ... One Kill" from Ninjas and Superspies

[shadrak]

Best snipers just apply their strike bonuses to achieve crit numbers by concentrating 1 melee round using Martial Art Technique "One Shot ... One Kill" from Ninjas and Superspies

I have used that, but it is becoming problematic to have every NPC sniper have psionics and a martial arts ability...

Are you saying use the rules for one life as a special sniper ability?

[Shark_Force]

so, i figured i'd pop out my RUE and see if i was crazy and there were no good targets for snipers. here's some things i found:

(note: i've not seen the stats for this naruni sniper cannon, but if it is similar to the ATL-7 i expect similar results).

(also note: most of these can potentially take place before the fight properly starts, and also that anything which requires 2 snipers can also potentially be done by one sniper firing a second shot at the start of a fight. and remember, if they don't know when you're attacking, they get no chance to dodge).

on a SAMAS, you can take out a wing very easily with the heavy single-shot weapons in the game. no wing, no flight. you could also take out the ammo drum (easily) and/or the main gun (slightly more difficult) in a single hit, or the mini-missile system if you want to prioritize that. a non-flying SAMAS may be all you need in many cases. a SAMAS with no gun has been seriously crippled in its combat capabilities. you can also destroy the head with a decent shot,reducing their effectiveness significantly, and exposing their head to future shots (and given they have ample evidence you can land that shot, motivation to run away).

for a UAR-1, you can easily take out a mini-missile turret or short-range missile launchers, have a good chance of taking out the railgun, and stand a decent chance of taking out one of the medium range missile launchers. you can probably take out the sensor turret, which likely means the missiles are going to have an awfully hard time acquiring a target, especially against anyone not in direct line of sight (the rules don't say you can't fire them, so i presume you can at least point and shoot, but if this was reality that wouldn't work). if you have a friend, you can take out a leg, which is going to make most of the weapon systems a lot less useful.

against a spider skull walker, you stand a fair chance of destroying one of the main rail guns. if you have a friend, you can destroy a second leg on one side, which will severely unbalance the robot.

for a mark v APC, the forward auto-cannons appear to be made out of paper, as do the manned hatch guns and side mounted lasers. you can likely take out the rail gun turret, and are *very* likely to take out the main laser turret or a mini-missile launcher. the auto-cannons in particular are an extremely high-value target in my opinion; taking them out will likely make the battle a lot easier.

against a death's head transport, the forward windows and/or side lasers are easy. the main railgun is reasonably likely. with a friend, you can probably shoot out the windows and render a pilot ineffective by shooting their helmet out. you may also be able to get an explosive into the room, which will probably have some very unpleasant consequences for the controls.

against a sky-cycle, you stand a fair chance of simply disabling the vehicle.

against a skelebot, the rifle is an extremely soft target, the head is a probable shut down (and severe crippling strike) and is a soft target, and the main body is very much within reach for a single-shot disable.


most non-combat vehicles can be disabled entirely with a single shot easily. likewise for most body armour, which will generally make people very hesitant to continue fighting at the very least.

most handheld weapons will be easily destroyed in a single shot.

against samson PA, the ammo drum is a soft target, as is the rail gun and the mini-missile launchers. not quite as easy to fully disable weapons as a SAMAS, surprisingly, but i'd much rather face a samson that has 4 mini-missiles and no railgun (or potentially 2 mini-missiles before you shoot the second launcher out).

against a flying titan, the head is a fairly soft target and the pilot will probably be KO'd. the wings are a soft target, and without that the suit cannot fly (also, the weapon systems are wing-mounted).

against a titan combat robot, the sensors are a soft target. the rail gun is a fairly soft target. the missile launchers are somewhat tough, but you stand a decent chance of taking them out in one shot.



i certainly won't say that sniper-proof targets don't exist, but they seem to be pretty rare from my perspective.

[shadrak]

so, i figured i'd pop out my RUE and see if i was crazy and there were no good targets for snipers. here's some things i found:

(note: i've not seen the stats for this naruni sniper cannon, but if it is similar to the ATL-7 i expect similar results).

(also note: most of these can potentially take place before the fight properly starts, and also that anything which requires 2 snipers can also potentially be done by one sniper firing a second shot at the start of a fight. and remember, if they don't know when you're attacking, they get no chance to dodge).

on a SAMAS, you can take out a wing very easily with the heavy single-shot weapons in the game. no wing, no flight. you could also take out the ammo drum (easily) and/or the main gun (slightly more difficult) in a single hit, or the mini-missile system if you want to prioritize that. a non-flying SAMAS may be all you need in many cases. a SAMAS with no gun has been seriously crippled in its combat capabilities. you can also destroy the head with a decent shot,reducing their effectiveness significantly, and exposing their head to future shots (and given they have ample evidence you can land that shot, motivation to run away).

for a UAR-1, you can easily take out a mini-missile turret or short-range missile launchers, have a good chance of taking out the railgun, and stand a decent chance of taking out one of the medium range missile launchers. you can probably take out the sensor turret, which likely means the missiles are going to have an awfully hard time acquiring a target, especially against anyone not in direct line of sight (the rules don't say you can't fire them, so i presume you can at least point and shoot, but if this was reality that wouldn't work). if you have a friend, you can take out a leg, which is going to make most of the weapon systems a lot less useful.

against a spider skull walker, you stand a fair chance of destroying one of the main rail guns. if you have a friend, you can destroy a second leg on one side, which will severely unbalance the robot.

for a mark v APC, the forward auto-cannons appear to be made out of paper, as do the manned hatch guns and side mounted lasers. you can likely take out the rail gun turret, and are *very* likely to take out the main laser turret or a mini-missile launcher. the auto-cannons in particular are an extremely high-value target in my opinion; taking them out will likely make the battle a lot easier.

against a death's head transport, the forward windows and/or side lasers are easy. the main railgun is reasonably likely. with a friend, you can probably shoot out the windows and render a pilot ineffective by shooting their helmet out. you may also be able to get an explosive into the room, which will probably have some very unpleasant consequences for the controls.

against a sky-cycle, you stand a fair chance of simply disabling the vehicle.

against a skelebot, the rifle is an extremely soft target, the head is a probable shut down (and severe crippling strike) and is a soft target, and the main body is very much within reach for a single-shot disable.


most non-combat vehicles can be disabled entirely with a single shot easily. likewise for most body armour, which will generally make people very hesitant to continue fighting at the very least.

most handheld weapons will be easily destroyed in a single shot.

against samson PA, the ammo drum is a soft target, as is the rail gun and the mini-missile launchers. not quite as easy to fully disable weapons as a SAMAS, surprisingly, but i'd much rather face a samson that has 4 mini-missiles and no railgun (or potentially 2 mini-missiles before you shoot the second launcher out).

against a flying titan, the head is a fairly soft target and the pilot will probably be KO'd. the wings are a soft target, and without that the suit cannot fly (also, the weapon systems are wing-mounted).

against a titan combat robot, the sensors are a soft target. the rail gun is a fairly soft target. the missile launchers are somewhat tough, but you stand a decent chance of taking them out in one shot.



i certainly won't say that sniper-proof targets don't exist, but they seem to be pretty rare from my perspective.

The heaviest common sniper rifles are 6D6+6 MD...average damage: 27 MD but they require an additional melee action. For sniper rifles that require only 3 actions for am Aimee called shot 4D6 is the high side...or 14 points of average damage

Naruni Cannon: 2D4x10 MD....average damage: 50 MD (note-this is a rare weapon).

ATL-7: 3D6x10+20...average damage 120 MD (note-this weapon is virtually unknown of in North America)

CA-3 Armor MDC of Arm- 55 ( most troopers wear CA-4)

Old Style SAMAS wing- 50 MDC

Super SAMAS Wing: 95

Smiling Jack SAMAS wing: 85 MDC

Hell raiser sensor cluster: 90 MDC

Hellfire main weapon systems: 90-120 MDC



I don’t think you are taking out SAMAS wings with the most powerful common sniper rifles with just standard rules and you are degrading the combat effectiveness of any other systems either...
And you aren’t limiting the effectiveness of even a lightly armored trooper

Using the Deaths Head Transport example (though not a good target for a sniper, snipers should be targeting leadership, comms, weapons carriers), it will take 4 shots on the same window to overcome the window,s MDC. It would take 3 shots to take out 1 of a sky cycle’s 3 rear jets (which is not a good target for a sniper unless the vehicle is grounded).

For Flying Titan and Titan Robotics, Samson (Mark I) yes, they have legitimate weaknesses...but they aren’t systems that I have found to be common in most games, but it still requires the most common powerful sniper rifles.

This is why I wonder if people are actually playing the game...the armor levels are so high that the average sniper rifle in recent world books requires 3 consecutive LUCKY shots to breach the weakest part of armor that is in recent world books...

It is better to “snipe” with a rail gun or automatic plasma cannon...WP bonuses are reduced by half and you can’t aim but you can call the shot, but there are no other penalties so assume:


Target is an old-style SAMAS head (8+3(size)+1 (moving)+2(speed))=14+

Sniper rifle with level 6 WP needs 11+ to hit the head (9+ with sniper) - so a 60% chance of doing an average of 14 MD with sniper (4D6 sniper....6D6 snipers require an additional action than a burst from a rail gun or plasma cannon). Risk value=14*.6= 8.4 damage

Railgun WP Heavy Energy Weapons +3 strike...becomes +1, so 13+ to hit doing an average of 35 damage. Risk value= 35 * .4= 14 damage...

167% more effective to make called shots with a rail gun than with the highest power single shot sniper laser that doesn’t take an additional melee action to fire.

Now, you can increase the risk with the sniper rifle to 70% by aiming (9.8 damage) but it requires an additional melee action...and the rail gun is still 142% more effective

[Shark_Force]

first of all, the thread is about the heavy weapons. so yes, i AM talking about them. if you didn't want to talk about their effectiveness as sniper weapons, then, oh, i dunno, maybe don't start a thread about those specific weapons and complain about how ineffective they are as sniper weapons.

but that aside... not every sniper rifle is a .50 cal anti-materiel weapon, so the ones in rifts that are very precise but not exceptionally damaging? guess what: those are the lighter sniper rifles. the ones you use to put a bullet into the head of a guy who looks over his cover, not the kind you use to disable a humvee. the fact that there are lighter ones for more precision-oriented work does not mean they need to do as much damage as the heaviest single-shot weapons in existence. NG sells a heavy plasma ejector that does 1d6x10 damage to a 2000 foot range, for example. naruni sells a "shoulder cannon" that does 2d4x10+20. either of them can be used for sniping purposes. considering what you would *normally* call a weapon designed to fire .50 BMG ammunition, if a barret is a "sniper rifle" then i see no reason any other cannon cannot be considered a sniper rifle.

and if the people in south america can whip up an ATL-7, there's no reason to presume the people in north america are clueless morons, nor is there any reason to assume that every single weapon ever made has already been listed (and in this case, no special capabilities exist... if some nameless schmuck can figure out how to make a heavy duty laser that drains an entire e-clip and has no special knowledge of laser technology, it's a fair bet that northern gun, the CS, and especially wilks could too.

you can make an aimed called shot with a mini-missile too, for example, and there are an assortment of man-portable mini-missile launchers available in north america. if you use armour piercing, you have a pretty solid chance of scoring some bonus damage with it as well. not to mention there's an NPC in rifts mercenaries that can custom-build explosives that pack an extra punch, and there's no reason for that NPC to be the only person around, nor is there any reason to presume that none of the people capable of such a thing are willing to sell their product (it just won't be a mass-produced item you can buy over the shelf, you're going to need something custom made).

if necessary, your sniper may find 'borg conversion useful to handle those large weapons. heck, you might even consider getting a power armour or robot vehicle designed for sniping duties. free quebec pretty much used glitter boys for exactly that during their war against the CS. i don't doubt other people have done more or less the same.

at its heart, a sniper rifle is a weapon that someone has taken a standard version of, and refined the accuracy beyond what is normally necessary. there are plenty of weapons in the rifts setting that you can easily do that with.

[jaymz]

shadrak - with all due respect I think you are locked into the mentality of "snipers should be able to take out relatively heavily armoured targets" and again that is not their purview or purpose. Add to that Rifts is an era of full protection for a soldier so it changes the sniper's role slightly further. They are not a "fire support in full straight up combat scenario". They are an "ambush with a shot or two on vulnerable targets then get out of dodge". Traditionally snipers won't be part of a "Squad" or "group". Which in and of itself is problematic in a group based game. So you have to adjust what they do. They scout. They gather intel. They set up to ambush before the rest of the group takes on their opponents. Rifts is not an environment conducive to a sniper. My attempt to make a "usable" sniper is still made....ineffective under normal combat conditions which is reality. If you want snipers capable of taking out armoured opponents with sniped shots in normal combat then keep doing what you are doing but keep in mind that is not what a sniper is or does.

[shadrak]

first of all, the thread is about the heavy weapons. so yes, i AM talking about them. if you didn't want to talk about their effectiveness as sniper weapons, then, oh, i dunno, maybe don't start a thread about those specific weapons and complain about how ineffective they are as sniper weapons.

but that aside... not every sniper rifle is a .50 cal anti-materiel weapon, so the ones in rifts that are very precise but not exceptionally damaging? guess what: those are the lighter sniper rifles. the ones you use to put a bullet into the head of a guy who looks over his cover, not the kind you use to disable a humvee. the fact that there are lighter ones for more precision-oriented work does not mean they need to do as much damage as the heaviest single-shot weapons in existence. NG sells a heavy plasma ejector that does 1d6x10 damage to a 2000 foot range, for example. naruni sells a "shoulder cannon" that does 2d4x10+20. either of them can be used for sniping purposes. considering what you would *normally* call a weapon designed to fire .50 BMG ammunition, if a barret is a "sniper rifle" then i see no reason any other cannon cannot be considered a sniper rifle.

and if the people in south america can whip up an ATL-7, there's no reason to presume the people in north america are clueless morons, nor is there any reason to assume that every single weapon ever made has already been listed (and in this case, no special capabilities exist... if some nameless schmuck can figure out how to make a heavy duty laser that drains an entire e-clip and has no special knowledge of laser technology, it's a fair bet that northern gun, the CS, and especially wilks could too.

you can make an aimed called shot with a mini-missile too, for example, and there are an assortment of man-portable mini-missile launchers available in north america. if you use armour piercing, you have a pretty solid chance of scoring some bonus damage with it as well. not to mention there's an NPC in rifts mercenaries that can custom-build explosives that pack an extra punch, and there's no reason for that NPC to be the only person around, nor is there any reason to presume that none of the people capable of such a thing are willing to sell their product (it just won't be a mass-produced item you can buy over the shelf, you're going to need something custom made).

if necessary, your sniper may find 'borg conversion useful to handle those large weapons. heck, you might even consider getting a power armour or robot vehicle designed for sniping duties. free quebec pretty much used glitter boys for exactly that during their war against the CS. i don't doubt other people have done more or less the same.

at its heart, a sniper rifle is a weapon that someone has taken a standard version of, and refined the accuracy beyond what is normally necessary. there are plenty of weapons in the rifts setting that you can easily do that with.

This thread has become “why have heavy sniper weapons, they are pointless...Call of Duty 4....yadayadayada”

I would agree that large weapon systems make sense as sniper weapons but, apparently,that is not a view shared by more than 1 or 2 persons on the forum

shadrak - with all due respect I think you are locked into the mentality of "snipers should be able to take out relatively heavily armoured targets" and again that is not their purview or purpose. Add to that Rifts is an era of full protection for a soldier so it changes the sniper's role slightly further. They are not a "fire support in full straight up combat scenario". They are an "ambush with a shot or two on vulnerable targets then get out of dodge". Traditionally snipers won't be part of a "Squad" or "group". Which in and of itself is problematic in a group based game. So you have to adjust what they do. They scout. They gather intel. They set up to ambush before the rest of the group takes on their opponents. Rifts is not an environment conducive to a sniper. My attempt to make a "usable" sniper is still made....ineffective under normal combat conditions which is reality. If you want snipers capable of taking out armoured opponents with sniped shots in normal combat then keep doing what you are doing but keep in mind that is not what a sniper is or does.

Heavily armored? A sniper cannot consistently take out an opponent wearing plastic man with the current “sniper” systems available in North America....making a “sniper” pointless...

If a combat scenario is such that you are sandblasting shields for 2 or 3 minutes then a sniper system only makes sense if you can destroy lightly armored critical systems...except, in this game, those don’t exist either...

This makes all of the sniping related rules (stalking, marksman AT, etc) pointless unless there is a weapon system that can constently drop a single man are destroy sensors and comms with a single shot...not as a “GOD GUN” that you fire accurately 7 times in 15 seconds (hell, you can’t do that at range with a normal weapon), but with a weapon that can actually neutralize a target, consistently, with a single shot...

Hell, even making a sniper laser that did 1D6+30 MD would be more effective than a 1D6x10 sniper weapon (which does not exist in North America)

Again, either sniping is effective, thus justifying the marksmanship rules, or it is not and Paladium should stop publishing stupid sniper rules that waste space in publications...

This is also true of other rules that make a character more accurate (stalking, etc) without making them more deadly...what good is sneaking up on a coalition grunt to stab him in the neck when your vibroblade does 1D6 MD and the Grunt’s neck armor is 70 MDC

[shadrak]

Of course, a rule that assigns an MDC value to faceshields, joints, etc of 20-30% and getting rid of the GI Joe rule for NPCs would work too...

After all, what’s the point of the GI Joe rule when you can just put on your MDC underwear before you climb into your CA-4 armor?

[ShadowLogan]

Again, either sniping is effective, thus justifying the marksmanship rules, or it is not and Paladium should stop publishing stupid sniper rules that waste space in publications...

You are making the assumption that to be effective you have to destroy an MDC object (reduce to zero or below), but it can be shown that some items when they take damage (but still retain postive MDC number) lose effectiveness. Megaversally speaking:
-Environmental MDC Body Armor losing features after so much damage
-Robotech's Shadow Devices stop working when Main Body is reduced below a certain percentage
-Robotech (1E) and Rifts (RUE, RCB1r) have optional side effects for robots/powerarmor/vehicles when they take 60% damage
-Rifts Japan's Gemini Robot loses abilities when its Main body is reduced below 70%
-some are so big they use MDC per area to punch a hole in a more general location (ex. Ships and walls)

As mentioned previously, we see the Anti-Robot Specialist in Rifts Canada (WB20), this OCC makes it clear that there are locations not listed on the MDC by location list that are target-able so the GM would have to work out values for the "unlisted".

I have used that, but it is becoming problematic to have every NPC sniper have psionics and a martial arts ability...

Then House Rule the Sniper Rules to be more effective.

Ex: the first sniper shot (maybe one or two more) counts as an automatic CRITICAL HIT before Dice Roll (a critical hit on the dice would just do more damage on top of it), weather this is a x2 or more modifier... To be applicable it must qualify as a surprise attack.

Something like the example would seem to address the issue you have (not doing enough damage). It isn't without precedent to have an automatic Critical Strike without a threat range (default is 20, some skills/weapons increase the range) given HTH: Basic and Expert both at Level 13 offer critical strike from behind (HTH: Kendo & Zanji level 8 & 3 respectively in Japan also), Body Flip Throw: Critical (WB8 pg191 or WB11 pg72, possibly other places). You also have Power Punch and Leap/Jump Kicks that take up attacks, but modify the melee damage.

This makes all of the sniping related rules (stalking, marksman AT, etc) pointless unless there is a weapon system that can constently drop a single man are destroy sensors and comms with a single shot...

It should be noted that the weakest point in MDC body armor IS NOT the HEAD, but rather the Arms which depending on the specific armor vs weapon used is doable. Taking out the arm might not kill immediately, but in all likelihood it will take the guy out of the fight (and in need of medical care to survive, RUE pg 359 optional rules w/o the optional rules it would be a kill).

[HWalsh]

Why are you so laser focused on, "In a single shot!" though?

You're like 6000 yards away, they can't see you, sure you're not killing them in one shot, but dude, you've got the time.

Don't you see how one shot kills, from stealth, from incredible distances in a game aren't conducive to play?

1. They promote lone wolf behavior. (Don't split the party)
2. They would tick you off if it happened to you. (If you can do it, enemies can do it.)
3. They in a game make snipers the end-all be-all of combat. Why play anything else? Why play a Mage when you're going to die well outside spell range with no way to stop it or retaliate. Why play a Cyber-Knight if it is much more effective to shoot at opponents silently and safely from 10,000 yards? Why on earth would you play a gunslinger?

You're trying to literally be the God of combat. That isn't fun for anyone but you.

It's not fun for the GM and it's not fun for other players, and it darn sure wouldn't be fun the second someone used it on you.

-----

You: "I purchase an e-clip and..."
GM: (Interrupting) "You're dead. Make a new character."
You: "What?!"
GM: "Sniper, hidden under brush, from 10,000 yards. Make a new character."
You: "But I didn't have a chance to defend myse-"
GM: "Neither did that CS patrol that you gunned down. Make a new character."

[Shark_Force]

it doesn't matter if you can't kill someone in plastic-man armour. you can make them useless. that is good enough. take out their gun, for example. between 15 and 50 MDC for most hand-held weapons they'll be using. you think they're gonna keep fighting with their bare hands just because they're not dead? heck, i'd say you have a pretty good chance of scoring an undamaged suit of plastic-man armour off of them.

[jaymz]

Your quote here

A sniper cannot consistently take out an opponent wearing plastic man with the current “sniper” systems available in North America

Is what I will adddress and use my my own quote to do so

Add to that Rifts is an era of full protection for a soldier so it changes the sniper's role slightly further. They are not a "fire support in full straight up combat scenario". They are an "ambush with a shot or two on vulnerable targets then get out of dodge".

I will also add the following, if what you want is to one shot fully armoured soldier at any time then have at it but it most certainly is not how most snipers work. They wait for opportunity, weakness and vulnerability, none of which would likely include a Rifts era soldier in Full Armour.

[HWalsh]

Simple ultimate problem:

I want to one shot my enemies, from stealth, at extreme range.

Simple ultimate answer:

That is way too powerful, not fun for anyone else, and destroys the functionality of the game. So, no.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You: "I purchase an e-clip and..."
GM: (Interrupting) "You're dead. Make a new character."
You: "What?!"
GM: "Sniper, hidden under brush, from 10,000 yards. Make a new character."
You: "But I didn't have a chance to defend myse-"
GM: "Neither did that CS patrol that you gunned down. Make a new character."

I pointed this out above but was absolutely ignored.

But the above is exactly why most systems don't lean heavily on sniper rules. Because of this. you do this to a few enemies and word gets out. What happens? They send a sniper after you and boom. You're rolling a new char.

A farm boy that shoots deer for food can do this to your char. As soon as you start sniping everything you're INVITING the action to be done to you.

Is it 'realistic'? Yes. But you don't want that. Not against you anyway

"I'm opening my helmet to take a bite of my energy ba"
"You're dead roll a new char"
"AWW MAN!"

*New char rolled and joins the party*
"You have to use the bathroom"
"ok I look around do I see anyone?"
"nope"
"Ok I undo my armor's cod piece and pull out my
"You're dead roll a new char"
"WHAT??"
"Sniper laser shot to your crotch from 2,000m. Silent invisable but your vaporized to.... 140mdc in the pee-pee. You're dead"
"But"
"DEAD""

New char rolled
"Ok my char sleeps"
"you're in full EBA"
"So?"
"So you ever tried sleeping just in street clothes? Much less full kit?"
"I try anyway"
"Ok you have a fitful night of sleep and wake up REALLY having to use the bathroom you now have dice penalties on actions, and you STILL have to go to the bathroom."
"Aww man"
*Gm rattles dice in hand looking at you and waiting*

Doesn't sound too fun does it? It's why most GM's and games lean away from snipers.

[RockJock]

The issue with snipers is why I'm using a Gunfighter as my NGR Spec Forces sniper....

[Axelmania]

They wait for opportunity, weakness and vulnerability, none of which would likely include a Rifts era soldier in Full Armour.

The opportunity of weakness + vulnerability is clearly when they're not in full armor: like when they have to open their poop hatch.

Simple ultimate problem:

I want to one shot my enemies, from stealth, at extreme range.

Simple ultimate answer:

That is way too powerful, not fun for anyone else, and destroys the functionality of the game. So, no.

If the problem is no ability to try and avoid a successful strike roll, I think that's an overall problem you will have with any form of surprise attack.

The defence against this would of course be the "Detect Ambush" skill, because if that's successful, you should be able to discern that you're in an area exposed to snipers and take appropriate measures to remove yourself from that line of fire before they notice you are in it and are able to fire.

"I'm opening my helmet to take a bite of my energy ba"
"You're dead roll a new char"
"AWW MAN!"

*New char rolled and joins the party*
"You have to use the bathroom"
"ok I look around do I see anyone?"
"nope"
"Ok I undo my armor's cod piece and pull out my
"You're dead roll a new char"
"WHAT??"
"Sniper laser shot to your crotch from 2,000m. Silent invisable but your vaporized to.... 140mdc in the pee-pee. You're dead"
"But"
"DEAD""

New char rolled
"Ok my char sleeps"
"you're in full EBA"
"So?"
"So you ever tried sleeping just in street clothes? Much less full kit?"
"I try anyway"
"Ok you have a fitful night of sleep and wake up REALLY having to use the bathroom you now have dice penalties on actions, and you STILL have to go to the bathroom."
"Aww man"
*Gm rattles dice in hand looking at you and waiting*

Doesn't sound too fun does it? It's why most GM's and games lean away from snipers.

If people dislike that, they shouldn't eat their energy bars or remove their codpieces unless they're in a brushy area so a sniper can't get line-of-sight.

Plus you should totally be using the optional MD survival tables instead of just "you're dead" if MD v SDC is boring. Not just discount snipers, who are obviously a thing. This is basically what the Juicer Assassin lives for. They excel because they have the enhanced abilities to get into (and out of) really weird places for shooting angles that you normally wouldn't expect to be feasible.

[HWalsh]

If the problem is no ability to try and avoid a successful strike roll, I think that's an overall problem you will have with any form of surprise attack.

Balderdash.

Other forms of surprise attacks in Rifts don't kill you through armor.

Seriously you can't believe the game would be better with more insta-kill from stealth capabilities.

We might as well change the name of the game from Rifts to "Snipers" because that's what you're advocating.

[Axelmania]

Hold on now, where are you getting this through-armor thing? I'm under the impression a sniper generally has to double-tap in Rifts to kill through MDC armor due to the BOAP rule.

The SUHT rule means most MD weapons need to double-tap even against SDC armor. Beams sometimes (less than "most") don't stop on hitting target (armor) and manage to go ALL the way through and harm whatever is behind it, but that's the exception.

Insta-kill from sniping is more when non-armored areas are targeted, moreso unrmored torso/head. If all that's exposed is a limb then I think a GM would probably let you survive it and get a prosthetic.

In cases like that, rather than the optional random tables I think a GM would just pick what is appropriate.

[eliakon]

If you want to instant kill someone with a sniper then the solution isn't to change the rules to make snipers the gods of war and everyone else cringing prey.

The solution is to find ways to provide your snipers with some of the (very rare, exotic and expensive) weapons in Rifts that bypass armor so that you can simply ignore the armor and try and use your surprise attack to kill that way.

And no, I am not advocating just saying "oh well now this new weapon ignores armor". That is the exact same sort of munchkin thinking that is basically dooming the auto-penetrate desire.
Find the actual, official weapons, and use one of them. Off hand I can think of five btw.

[Axelmania]

Phase Weapons are all that come to mind Are you counting the 3 different (pistol/rifle/cannon) as 3/5 or 1/5?

[HWalsh]

Phase Weapons are all that come to mind Are you counting the 3 different (pistol/rifle/cannon) as 3/5 or 1/5?

The munchkins who are asking to bypass armor don't want to use phase weapons as they won't one-shot the squishy target underneath the armor.

Again: These guys are asking for one shot kills, from extreme ranges, and from complete concealment.

[Axelmania]

Wanting to kill armored targets with 1 shot isn't necessarily as munchkin as being one of those armored targets

[Killer Cyborg]

Wanting to kill armored targets with 1 shot isn't necessarily as munchkin as being one of those armored targets

In Rifts, it pretty much IS though.
Because the game is set up where armor damage capacity is significantly higher than the damage output of weapons.
The INTENT of the game design is to avoid one-shot-kills against anybody with average or better armor.

And it's significantly more munchkin to try to go against the game design in order to insta-kill opponents, than it is to work within the intent of the game to avoid being insta-killed.

[shadrak]

The thing is, unless you ONLY play 3-5 man player character groups on 3-5 man NPC opponent a sniper is only effective against 1 or 2 high valued targets.

They aren't "gods of war".

They are utilized in a support role or they are utilized to eliminate a single high value target.

[Zer0 Kay]

Wanting to kill armored targets with 1 shot isn't necessarily as munchkin as being one of those armored targets

In Rifts, it pretty much IS though.
Because the game is set up where armor damage capacity is significantly higher than the damage output of weapons.
The INTENT of the game design is to avoid one-shot-kills against anybody with average or better armor.

And it's significantly more munchkin to try to go against the game design in order to insta-kill opponents, than it is to work within the intent of the game to avoid being insta-killed.

But the G.I. Joe rule rules out instakill for even a light MDC loincloth.

[Axelmania]

In Rifts, it pretty much IS though.
Because the game is set up where armor damage capacity is significantly higher than the damage output of weapons.
The INTENT of the game design is to avoid one-shot-kills against anybody with average or better armor.

And it's significantly more munchkin to try to go against the game design in order to insta-kill opponents, than it is to work within the intent of the game to avoid being insta-killed.

Rifts may not have had one-SHOT kills, but it very much had one-ACTION "insta" kills via its bursting rules, which were still pretty impressive even after the Conversion Book nerfed the multipliers.

[Killer Cyborg]

In Rifts, it pretty much IS though.
Because the game is set up where armor damage capacity is significantly higher than the damage output of weapons.
The INTENT of the game design is to avoid one-shot-kills against anybody with average or better armor.

And it's significantly more munchkin to try to go against the game design in order to insta-kill opponents, than it is to work within the intent of the game to avoid being insta-killed.

Rifts may not have had one-SHOT kills, but it very much had one-ACTION "insta" kills via its bursting rules, which were still pretty impressive even after the Conversion Book nerfed the multipliers.

Kind of.

The most damage that could be done with a RMB mega-damage weapon single-action burst was 3d6x5 MD, an average of 52.5 MD.
SB1 p. 8 defines "Light Armor" as "Plastic Man, Crusader, Urban Warrior, CA-2 Light Dead Boy Body Armor and Dog Pack Armor," because "they weight under or around 12 lbs and offer 35-55 MDC."
So an average Long Burst from a high-end energy rifle could take out most--but not all--light armors in a single attack.
But Heavy Armor (as per the same page) ran from 60-80 MD, and could withstand such an attack unless a Critical Hit was rolled for double damage.

After CB1, this changed to x3 damage instead of x5, which means that the most that could be done from a standard Long Burst from an energy rifle attack for average damage was 31.5 MD.
That could take out Dog Pack armor, but that's all--even Plastic Man armor had 35 MDC.

There were weapons that could kill a person in standard armor in a single attack, yes, but mostly just against LIGHT armor, not "better than average armor."
And only using high-end weapons.

Single-shot kills against well-armored enemies using any weapon short of a Boom Gun, Missiles, or other high-powered attack, were pretty rare, and required critical hits and/or max damage rolls.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wanting to kill armored targets with 1 shot isn't necessarily as munchkin as being one of those armored targets

In Rifts, it pretty much IS though.
Because the game is set up where armor damage capacity is significantly higher than the damage output of weapons.
The INTENT of the game design is to avoid one-shot-kills against anybody with average or better armor.

And it's significantly more munchkin to try to go against the game design in order to insta-kill opponents, than it is to work within the intent of the game to avoid being insta-killed.

But the G.I. Joe rule rules out instakill for even a light MDC loincloth.

Untrue.
Kevin has said multiple times that we're supposed to "use common sense" with that rule, and that enough damage can still kill somebody who has armor on.

[jaymz]

KC you know as well as I do Kevin's idea of common sense is quite different than most people's just based on the rules of the game as proof not to mention just how uncommon common sense in general is lol

[Killer Cyborg]

KC you know as well as I do Kevin's idea of common sense is quite different than most people's just based on the rules of the game as proof not to mention just how uncommon common sense in general is lol

Indeed I do!


But where that leaves us in this case is not knowing where exactly the "common sense" cutoff is supposed to be,
while still knowing that there IS one.

[Axelmania]

The most damage that could be done with a RMB mega-damage weapon single-action burst was 3d6x5 MD, an average of 52.5 MD.

If you're thinking the C-14 from p 203, why not the C-27? Both were standard ROF. 6D6*5 averages ~105 MD.

[Zer0 Kay]

Wanting to kill armored targets with 1 shot isn't necessarily as munchkin as being one of those armored targets

In Rifts, it pretty much IS though.
Because the game is set up where armor damage capacity is significantly higher than the damage output of weapons.
The INTENT of the game design is to avoid one-shot-kills against anybody with average or better armor.

And it's significantly more munchkin to try to go against the game design in order to insta-kill opponents, than it is to work within the intent of the game to avoid being insta-killed.

But the G.I. Joe rule rules out instakill for even a light MDC loincloth.

Untrue.
Kevin has said multiple times that we're supposed to "use common sense" with that rule, and that enough damage can still kill somebody who has armor on.

Aw come on the name in itself tells us that whenever the power armor goes boom the person inside ejects... even if it isn't equipped with an ejection system.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

To get back on topic, we seem to have a basic misunderstanding between "what a Sniper is capable of in real life" and "what a Sniper is capable of in the high-tech/magic rich environment of Rifts Earth".

The OP is complaining that Snipers in Rifts Earth cant do what they can in the modern day.

So... duh. Yes, correct. Working as intended.

Thats sorta a conceit of the setting. MDC materials and personal body armor literally changed the landscape of war.

In the modern day, a Sniper can one-shot, one-kill a high profile target because there is no such thing as Body Armor that fully encloses a subject and can stop all projectiles (certainly not .50BMG, though the two longest-range shots were not made with .50 at all).

In Rifts Earth.. this is no longer possible. Its not a bug, its a feature. MDC Personal Armor made one-shot, one-kill impossible. As intended. Its not an accident. And pray to whatever gods your character follows that the target isn't a naturally-MDC target. Good luck sniping a Kreeghor or a Dragon. Also, not a bug, but a feature.

The same advances in technology in the setting also put the firepower of a tank in the hands of an infantryman. So you 100% cannot make comparisons between how things are now and how things are in Rifts and complain that they arent the same or realistic.

Particularly as it applies to a gaming scenario and party play, allowing snipers to one-shot, one-kill targets isnt fun for anyone other than the sniper.

In-setting, however, the role of Snipers hasn't changed. They will prowl in, wait, and take their shot, just like real life. Theyll just have to wait for their target to take off his helmet, or whatever. This doesn't make great gameplay though. Particularly when it happens TO players.

[Killer Cyborg]

The most damage that could be done with a RMB mega-damage weapon single-action burst was 3d6x5 MD, an average of 52.5 MD.

If you're thinking the C-14 from p 203, why not the C-27? Both were standard ROF. 6D6*5 averages ~105 MD.

"Standard" ROF had multiple meanings.
For Heavy Energy Weapons that don't list a preset burst, it meant that every shot took 1 attack, i.e., single-shot weapon that's not burst capable.

[eliakon]

I would also like to toss out here that my sniper Lynette had a field day with supernatural targets.
Start with a big SDC rifle (.50cal and its 7d6 at 3,000' range is tasty but you do you.)
Now take silver/bone/iron/jade/whatever bullets so you are doing MDC (you can charm the bullets too)
And then start layering on the mods.
A called shot to the brain with a charmed exploding silver bullet is a good place to start...
I hope you remembered to stock up on sniper skills (Critical Strikes, Stalking, Sharpshooter, Marksman AT etc.) so that you can insure a critical from the next time zone.
Don't forget to pimp your rifle with all the trimmings (scopes, custom grips, balancing, etc.)
Even a gargoyle is going to notice *that*… well they will notice the bullet entering the brain. They won't notice you shooting it at them from a mile+ away.

(For the morbidly curious that is 7d6 with a x4, three x2, and a x3 multipliers. Since they 'only' stack that give the shot 7d6x10. To the brain can we say "new pain boys and girls?")

[onquabomsda]

All this weapon does is bank 3 C-29 shots and hit once...

So this is no more powerful than any random CS grunt with a C-29 at level 4 with boxing.