Babies

[Veknironth]

Well, this is undoubtedly not covered in the rules, but how different to Palladium's humanoid races' babies look? Are Elf babies taller with pointed ears upon birth? Do Dwarven babies emerge stout and bearded? How easily could a layman determine the difference?

-Vek
"Not that I want a baby."

[kiralon]

I'd say baby elves had pointed ears and would tend to be slimmer.
Dwarf babies would be noticeably smaller in body, a bit uglier at birth and maybe have body hair at birth.
Orc babies would be a bit beefier and would be u-g-l-y, oh and green.

I play it that the races age the same to puberty and then the age slowing (or speeding up) because I found the idea of 30 year old (3 year old equivalent) elf babies amusing, but not likely on an evolutionary scale and I always thought that orcs would probably hit puberty a bit earlier.

[Warshield73]

I'd say baby elves had pointed ears and would tend to be slimmer.
Dwarf babies would be noticeably smaller in body, a bit uglier at birth and maybe have body hair at birth.
Orc babies would be a bit beefier and would be u-g-l-y, oh and green.

Agreed, I think the difference between orc and human babies would be almost as extreme as the difference between chimp and human babies.

I play it that the races age the same to puberty and then the age slowing (or speeding up) because I found the idea of 30 year old (3 year old equivalent) elf babies amusing, but not likely on an evolutionary scale and I always thought that orcs would probably hit puberty a bit earlier.

I'm glad to here someone else does it this way too. It never made any sense to me to have a 30 year old toddler.

Now while I do have elves reaching physical maturity in the same time as humans socially and culturally it would be different. I think a hundred year old elf would often be treated as immature by other elves or even humans who might be half their age but still look older,

[Library Ogre]

Humans and elves are probably close to identical, though they'll have some differences around the eyes, ears, and cheekbones. Dwarven babies, IMO, will likely be "proportioned wrong" to human or elven eyes... lots more arm than leg. Other races will likely be out of size range... gnome babies may look similar, but they'll be wee. Ogre babies are, IMO, the interesting question... I prefer 1e ogres, where they're very big human sizes (i.e. 6-8' feet), and having them start as big babies then get bigger (really, my ideal ogre is Andre the Giant).

[Axelmania]

I play it that the races age the same to puberty and then the age slowing (or speeding up) because I found the idea of 30 year old (3 year old equivalent) elf babies amusing, but not likely on an evolutionary scale and I always thought that orcs would probably hit puberty a bit earlier.

Extended youth might be pretty interesting. If you watch the "Hotel Transylvania" cartoon series, for example, there's a flashback to Mavis when she was38 ("Becoming Klaus", references that she is 114 "76 short years later" of her first 'Vamp Off" with her cousin) and she looks to be in a post-toddler pre-tween range (~4-9 years old)

[kiralon]

Extended youth is too much trouble than it's worth.
Do the 50 year baby elves have the comprehension of a 5 year old, or a 50 year old. If its a 5 year old after 50 years it means they have a bit of a learning disability and would go up levels 10x slower than humans, and if its the comprehension level is higher, why aren't the 400 year old elves lvl 25 or 30.
I just find it easier to say until puberty (14-18) everyone ages roughly the same, then humans age 1:1, elves age 1:10, orcs age 1.5:1 and so on. This tends to avoid the issue of why the 150 year elf adventurer, who is just setting off on his first adventure because he is a 15 year old equivalent, why it took 150 years to learn how to get to level 1, and then why it only takes 3 weeks to get to lvl 2. Being helpless babe for half a century isn't what I'd call an evolutionary bonus, not to mention having to be a century or more old before you can procreate would pretty much guarantee extinction. Too much goes wrong with life in that time.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Just for a note on aging, PF2 main book (page 32) has a random starting age for Player Character Backgrounds. That table mentions to multiply the number by 2 for Elves, Dwarves, and Changelings. So while a Human or Orc might start adventuring at the age of 17, an Elf or Dwarf isn't likely to start until the age of 34. While this doesn't give us definitive mental and physical aging comparisons, it at least gives us a start.

As a non-official answer, I discussed aging of children in my culture write-up of many of the races, which can be found here: http://www.prysus.com/pf_cultures.htm Those are my personal take on things based on canon, but I'll repeat are not official.

Anyways, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Father Goose]

Greetings and Salutations. Just for a note on aging, PF2 main book (page 32) has a random starting age for Player Character Backgrounds. That table mentions to multiply the number by 2 for Elves, Dwarves, and Changelings. So while a Human or Orc might start adventuring at the age of 17, an Elf or Dwarf isn't likely to start until the age of 34. While this doesn't give us definitive mental and physical aging comparisons, it at least gives us a start.

As a non-official answer, I discussed aging of children in my culture write-up of many of the races, which can be found here: http://www.prysus.com/pf_cultures.htm Those are my personal take on things based on canon, but I'll repeat are not official.

Anyways, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

I always saw the later start of longer lives races to be a function of a less hurried culture. Humans don't have as many "good years" for adventure, so they are in a hurry to begin. Long lived races don't feel the same pressure to "not waste time" since they have plenty of it.
Once they begin adventuring, everyone progresses at a more similar speed because of the situational "high", not because they are racing the age clock.

[Prysus]

I always saw the later start of longer lives races to be a function of a less hurried culture. Humans don't have as many "good years" for adventure, so they are in a hurry to begin. Long lived races don't feel the same pressure to "not waste time" since they have plenty of it.
Once they begin adventuring, everyone progresses at a more similar speed because of the situational "high", not because they are racing the age clock.

Greetings and Salutations. The line could be interpreted either way, but more or less I agree with you. The main point of including that reference is ...

1: That's the only reference I can recall that even provides a potential clue on such matters, and I like including what information I can so others can make their own decisions.

2: The reference runs counter the concept of a 30 year old Elf being the equivalent of a 3 year old human (as suggested at times in this thread).

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Hotrod]

In the description of The Valley in Island at the Edge of the World, there's a teenager elf with a description that seems consistent with elves reaching physical maturity at about the same rate as humans. I'd consider it more of a leisurely apprenticeship concept than a difference of physical maturity rates.

[kiralon]

The first ed book has the starting ages for elves to be 20 to 200 years, humans 16 to 34.

[Axelmania]

In the description of The Valley in Island at the Edge of the World, there's a teenager elf with a description that seems consistent with elves reaching physical maturity at about the same rate as humans. I'd consider it more of a leisurely apprenticeship concept than a difference of physical maturity rates.

Could well be, elves just loathe about eating grapes and take longer to become adventurers.

[glitterboy2098]

Tolkien had Elves develop physically faster than humans for the first years of their life (duration not specified, but a 1 year old elf child is physically comparable to a 3-4 year old human one, going by the description) but then it slows down, so that they reach their adult height around 50 and full physical maturity at age 100.
mind you, his elves were fully immortal, and generally youthful in appearance forever. (there is reference to a 'third stage of life" where Tolkien's elves show signs of aging, growing beards and such, but it is apparently less about physical age and more about mental age.. the only ones in the novels and stories he wrote to exhibit it are elves who have literally lived from the start of History, like Cirdan the Shipwright, or those elves which have lived through major mental trauma, like when Thingol felt Luthien die of grief)

whether any of this might be applicable to Palladium elves is up to the Gm though. i could see elves having a somewhat more prolonged puberty than humans, given the lifespan differences, though i agree that they probably would mature at roughly the same rate for the first decade or so.

[Lukterran]

OMG some much wrong here in this thread is the quote from 1st edition:

"Humans, Wolfen, Goblins, Hob-goblins and Orcs all age at about the same rate .
Ogres, Trolls and Troglodytes age at about the same rate as humans, but have a longer life span (average 90 years).
Dwarves, Kobolds and Gnomes mature quickly and look old even when young. Example: a very young dwarf of 20 years
will look to be at least 50.
Elves and changelings mature quickly , but maintain their youthful appearance. A 100 year old elf (young by elven
standards) will look to be about 25 years old (by human standards). An elf that looks old will be 600 years old or older ."

[Library Ogre]

OMG some much wrong here in this thread is the quote from 1st edition:

"Humans, Wolfen, Goblins, Hob-goblins and Orcs all age at about the same rate .
Ogres, Trolls and Troglodytes age at about the same rate as humans, but have a longer life span (average 90 years).
Dwarves, Kobolds and Gnomes mature quickly and look old even when young. Example: a very young dwarf of 20 years
will look to be at least 50.
Elves and changelings mature quickly , but maintain their youthful appearance. A 100 year old elf (young by elven
standards) will look to be about 25 years old (by human standards). An elf that looks old will be 600 years old or older ."

Though, of course, this is complicated by the actual age table, where a first level elf might well be 200 years old.

[Lukterran]

OMG some much wrong here in this thread is the quote from 1st edition:

"Humans, Wolfen, Goblins, Hob-goblins and Orcs all age at about the same rate .
Ogres, Trolls and Troglodytes age at about the same rate as humans, but have a longer life span (average 90 years).
Dwarves, Kobolds and Gnomes mature quickly and look old even when young. Example: a very young dwarf of 20 years
will look to be at least 50.
Elves and changelings mature quickly , but maintain their youthful appearance. A 100 year old elf (young by elven
standards) will look to be about 25 years old (by human standards). An elf that looks old will be 600 years old or older ."

Though, of course, this is complicated by the actual age table, where a first level elf might well be 200 years old.

Yeah but 200 years was at the high end of the age table. Equal to a 34 year old human. Someone near the middle life.

The point being long lived races do not develop and mature any more slowly than human children. They just simply have longer lives. (They might appear older or younger looking, but that really doesn't effect their vigor or have a real impact other than physical appearance)

[kiralon]

But how slow do you have to be to be 200 years old and be lvl 1 with no xp and no skills. It's truly ridiculous.

[Library Ogre]

The point being long lived races do not develop and mature any more slowly than human children. They just simply have longer lives. (They might appear older or younger looking, but that really doesn't effect their vigor or have a real impact other than physical appearance)

Then where's the 16 year old elves? I mean, they start the table 25% older than humans, and end up 600% older than humans.

[Lukterran]

But how slow do you have to be to be 200 years old and be lvl 1 with no xp and no skills. It's truly ridiculous.

The elf version of the 40 year old dude that still lives at home with his mom in the basement. I suppose.

[kiralon]

But how slow do you have to be to be 200 years old and be lvl 1 with no xp and no skills. It's truly ridiculous.

The elf version of the 40 year old dude that still lives at home with his mom in the basement. I suppose.

He would at least be a master of the remote control and the microwave oven. How can you do stuff for 200 years and not learn anything. At the very least he would know a lot about food, latrines and beds.

[TriOpticon]

To the Original Poster, I am curious as to why you posed the question. Was there something in game that you needed? Just curious about it or was there something else?

[Axelmania]

At the very least he would know a lot about food, latrines and beds.

Those don't really have skills associated with them though.

Q: with Trolls being MDC in Rifts as of CBrevised, would they be MDC as babies to utilize as improvised flails against SDC targets without risk to them?

[kiralon]

lol

in rifts yes, in palladium no.
Hey watchout, hes got a trollpillion flail.

[Axelmania]

I think perhaps we should explore baby minotaurs as spiked flails, they will just grow up to worship Old Ones after all.