The Truth About Ogres

[Library Ogre]

Something I tossed off last weekend.

Ogres are a scourge upon human lands. Gigantic, with the strength of ten men, they prey upon the livestock of human holdings and kidnap women to propagate their cruel race. But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden. Though they are counted as their own race, ogres are clearly not their own species.

Ogres: The Secret History
Before the fall of Atlantis, millennia ago, the human species spread throughout the Megaverse. Advanced science, medicine, and magic made the natives of Atlantis something akin to the “lesser” humans of the worlds; taller, stronger, wiser, ubermensch without the sinister connotations that concept would later acquire. Cultural taboos kept the Atlanteans from mingling too closely with other humans, and advanced medicine kept any mistakes from happening. But, then, Atlantis fell, and the scattered children of that great nation became refugees, frequently disconnected from their kin and bereft of the benefits of their society. And, in such a situation, they mingled with the humans around them, and gave birth to abominations.
To achieve the stature and longevity of the True Atlanteans, certain changes were made from the human baseline. You cannot live for centuries in a standard human form; touches must be made to allow it to endure the march of years. Some of this can be done simply, with access to healing magics and psionics; the wear and tear a normal body takes is restored with magical healing in the way the crude medicine of the 21st century can not even dream of. But there were also tweaks to genetics, making a body that would be easier to repair, and wear out less quickly. Atlantean medicine helped to direct those changes and make the Atlanteans who they wished to be. But, deprived of that medical knowledge, and subjected to generations of interbreeding, those changes manifested as monstrous mutations. An Atlantean’s great height compared to mortal men became gigantism. Their modestly enhanced strength became mighty thews; their endurance became legendary, with hair grown wild and claw-like fingernails. Teeth meant to repair themselves over centuries of use became fangs that shredded flesh and replaced themselves when broken.
More succinctly, ogres are the eventual result of the interbreeding of humans and True Atlanteans, when deprived of Atlantean medicine and magic. They are not a simple crossbreed, but a subspecies derived from the hybridization of two distinct subspecies, then subjected to environmental stresses (or, more accurately, deprived of environmental supports). This is why they take so well to tattoo magic, and other mystical arts thought to be wholly human; they are, themselves, wholly human, born of two lines rejoining in desperate situations.

Body and Mind
So, what is an ogre, beyond a man writ large? Most often, they are male; the genetic manipulation and mutation which made ogres possible seems to favor the viability of male fetuses. Their features are often caricatures of human strength; the “strong jaw” of a dashing human hero is a granite slab attached with powerful muscles to an ogre’s skull. Their eyes are bright, but in a way that transcends intelligence and speaks of mania. All ogres are exceptionally hairy, but in very human ways; they do not grow fur or a pelt, but nor do they frequently suffer from male pattern baldness. It is an effect that humans find disturbing, especially when paired with their great size.
Though much is made of ogres’ claws and bite, it is important to realize that these are not fearsome weapons; their claw-like nails are no more damaging than their fists, and their canines can cause a serious wound, but not much more than one would receive from a ten foot tall human. What matters far more is an ogre’s willingness to use these weapons; a human would not bite, save in the most dire of circumstances, but an ogre will do so out of perverse joy. Men prefer a solid fist, but ogres know that the pain of a claw-rake is almost as good, and far more scarring.
Mentally, ogres are on par with humans, but they are not as easily psychic as their smaller kin. Ogres can and do study psychic professions; they are capable psi-healers, psi-mystics, and even mind mages. But without that study, they are unlikely to have any psionic powers. Some of this seems to extend to the more mundane form of empathy; ogres don’t really “get” people and what motivates them, which results in the decrease of their Mental Affinity attribute. When trained, however, ogres are as able and adept at mental games as any human.
Ogres are, thankfully, born mostly on the human scale, though at the larger end of it; whereas a human child will be between 5 and a half to almost nine pounds, an average ogre child will be between seven to ten pounds. Some very large ogre children have been born; fifteen to twenty pounds have been reported, but usually only with magical or psionic aid. After birth, however, they grow relatively rapidly, often reaching five or six feet tall by the time they are eight years old, after which their growth steadies, adding one inch to their height every year or two. This growth continues throughout their life; the tallest ogres are often the eldest, with truly exceptional and ancient ogres approaching fifteen feet tall; far more common among adults is 7-12 feet, however.
As is known, many ogre women are sterile, or have trouble giving birth. This leads ogre men to kidnap and rape human women, forcing them to bring the children to term, sometimes repeatedly. In most cases, the offspring of these are ogres, and most of the ogres born are male. Female ogres are a rarity, as are non-ogre offspring; perhaps one child in ten will not be an ogre, and perhaps one ogre in ten will be female. Non-ogre offspring, however, may go on to later bear or sire ogre children of their own, the essential sequences of DNA having been dormant in themselves, but awakening in their children.

Ogres in Society, and Ogre Society
Ogres raised in human lands are almost always treated as brutes. They are no less intelligent than the humans who surround them (on average), but their great size and strength means that humans invariably channel them towards physical pursuits (when they don’t simply kill them). Some of these ogres are anomalies; the children of humans who had an ogre parent or grandparent. Others are the children of women rescued from captivity. There are some rare ogres who simply make their homes among humans, or ogre children adopted by human or non-human parents who round out this population. Still, though, most are pointed towards things at which they will exceed human capacity… feats of strength, and professions to match. An ogre could become a bard or a ballerina, but they would be no better than a human at either. An ogre gladiator or longshoreman, however, would have a leg up, so to speak, simply by being a few heads taller than everyone else.
When in giant society, ogres are often regarded as useful and clever. While not all giants are terribly stupid, ogres are cleverer than many of a giant’s other minions, while no physical threat to the giant. As such, giant sorcerers have no shortage of eager ogre apprentices, and giants prize ogres as taskmasters; intimidating to an orc, and not likely to be outsmarted by a goblin.
When on their own, with neither humans nor giants to tell them what to do, ogres compete. Ogres don’t get particularly bent out of shape about losing to an obvious superior; they may be big, strong, and tough, but they know that trolls are bigger, stronger, and tougher, so there’s not much to be lost by being less than them… but other ogres are competition. Every task an ogre may engage in with another ogre may turn into a competition. Who hauled the most barrels? Who slew the most foes? Who fathered the most sons? Two ogres at a latrine will try to pee farther and longer than each other; two ogres at a table will try to out eat and out drink their “opponent”. Every ogre is the opponent of every other ogre, and one who is consistently at the bottom of the rankings is one who will “receive” the “opportunity” to “prove themselves”... horrible jobs, dangerous assignments, and the worst equipment. Why, if they can overcome those obstacles, they must truly be a great; if they cannot, well, then they deserve whatever they get.
The strength of ogres tends to attract other humanoids, attracted to that strength. Orcs and goblins are both commonly part of ogre-centered communities, with the ogres serving as an aristocracy, of sorts, to their lesser tribe-mates. The rules of the ogres govern how they can treat their tribe-mates, though it is usually with a mixture of aloofness, disdain, and brutality; there’s no competition in being better than an orc, after all.
What surprises many is the fondness ogres have for animals; though they’re happily omnivorous, they seem to prefer a pastoral lifestyle, if there’s no way to make a living fighting. They will herd animals, hunt with hawks and dogs, even keep horses, though most ogres are far too large to ride. Ogres with magical powers often seek out beasts to make a connection with; familiars, yes, but even simply wild creatures tamed through a combination of magic and ogre stubbornness.

Ogre Party
Ogres in a traditional adventuring party might be found in any role; they may be warriors, archers, priests, or magicians. The ogre relationship with humans means that they often must be careful if adventuring in the Eastern Territory, Western Empire, or Timiro; while there are some home-grown ogres in these places, raised among humans, the default reaction to a free ogre is, at best, wariness. In the Northern Wilderness, free ogres have fewer restrictions; they don’t intimidate wolfen, much, and the canines are far more willing to see what the ogre will do before they decide who he is.
Travelling with an ogre does pose some problems. Most obviously, ogres consume a LOT of food; three to four times what a human eats is close to a starvation diet for an ogre. Their gear is likewise large and, except in wolfen territory, hard to come by (and they tend to find even wolfen weapons a bit small). Ogres can seldom buy “off-the-rack”, and that comes at a premium. Furthermore, their size can make it difficult to acquire riding animals for them, so groups are usually travelling at the speed of ogre. As ogres have few notable empires of the past, or alchemists of note, they may also find appropriate magical gear difficult to acquire.
As noted above, ogres frequently are too large to ride horses, which can cause them some difficulty as Knights or Palladins. Ogres raised to those classes, however, frequently study other methods, such as the Way of the Landsknecht, below.

Way of the Landsknecht
For many reasons, there are those who are knights (or Palladins; this option applies equally to them) who do not ride horses. In the case of ogres, they are simply too big to do so, and suitable mounts for their size are hard to come by. For others, they may live in places where knighthood flourishes but horses, sadly, do not. To them is the Way of the Landsknecht. This replaces both the Way of the Horse and the Way of the Lance for Palladins and Knights.
Landsknecht are heavy infantry, drilled in the use of two or three weapons: the Pike, a long spear more than double their own height in length, and a Cleaver; either a pole-axe like a halberd, or a two-handed sword. Whereas traditional knights are trained to fight from horseback, the Landsknecht are trained to deal with cavalry; killing horses and unseating riders with the Pike, and fighting heavily armored troops on the ground with the cleaver.

Way of the Pike: The Landsknecht is skilled in the use of the pike as a weapon in combat and for tournaments. The character gets the equivalent of W.P. Spear with the following abilities and bonuses when facing mounted opponents, or those larger than themselves.
The roll of a "natural" 19 or 20 (unmodified die roll) means the pike inflicts triple damage (instead of double; an otherwise successful strike does normal damage, or the strike unseats or knocks down their opponent. The player must announce his character's intention as to whether he intends to inflict damage or unseat his opponent.
Opponents unseated from horseback suffer normal damage from the pike, and are knocked off their horse and take an additional 1D6 damage unless they successfully roll with impact/fall. The fallen rider also loses initiative and one melee action/attack. An opponent who is not or horseback, but standing on the ground can be knocked off his feet and on his backside with the same result, except no additional damage from the fall.
In the alternative, the Landsknecht can try to disarm a larger or mounted opponent with the pike. Roll to strike as usual, but if the defender fails to parry or dodge, the Landsknecht successfully strikes him in such a way that he drops his weapon or shield. The player must announce his character's intention to disarm his opponent and make a "called shot," indicating what item he is trying to knock out of his foe's hands. This attack can also be used to knock off any hat or helmet that isn't bolted directly to the body armor. This attack is often used by Landsknechts for fun and games, as a warning, or an attempt to frighten away or discourage an opponent rather than engage in a battle to the death.
An opponent may also be unseated or disarmed with a modified strike roll (all bonuses included) that is 19, 20 or greater.


Way of the Cleaver: The Way of the Cleaver is used when facing heavily armored foes; anyone whose AR is 14 or higher. For those wearing artificial armor whose non-magical AR is 14 or greater, the Landsknecht may intentionally attack the armor, not the opponent inside. In doing so, they inflict no damage on the opponent, but inflict an additional 6 damage on the armor with each successful strike. Furthermore, if the opponent is not aware that this is the Landsknecht’s intent, they receive a parry penalty equal to half their AR (rounded down); they are attempting to deflect hits with their armor, when hitting their armor is exactly what the Landsknecht intends! If the opponent becomes aware of this, the parry penalty drops to only -2; dodges have no penalty, regardless.
For those with natural armor whose AR exceeds 14, Landsknechts may attempt to weaken their armor. The Landsknecht receives no bonus to hit or damage, but on any critical strike, they may either roll double damage, or reduce the opponent’s AR by 1 point (to a minimum of half their original AR, rounded up). Lost points of AR return like hit points, either through natural healing, bio-regeneration, or healing magics.

[dreicunan]

Interesting take on Ogre origins. I like the Landsknecht adaptation to the Knight and Ogre class as well.

Why is the Way of the Cleaver limited to use against non-magical armor?

[Library Ogre]

Interesting take on Ogre origins. I like the Landsknecht adaptation to the Knight and Ogre class as well.

Why is the Way of the Cleaver limited to use against non-magical armor?

More specifically, non-magical AR. So it won't work against a Cloak of Armor (AR 14) or Leather of Iron (AR 15), but will function fine against weightless plate armor. I'd probably let it work against Armor of Ithan, since it creates a suit of plate mail.

[dreicunan]

Interesting take on Ogre origins. I like the Landsknecht adaptation to the Knight and Ogre class as well.

Why is the Way of the Cleaver limited to use against non-magical armor?

More specifically, non-magical AR. So it won't work against a Cloak of Armor (AR 14) or Leather of Iron (AR 15), but will function fine against weightless plate armor. I'd probably let it work against Armor of Ithan, since it creates a suit of plate mail.

What about a suit of plate armor with a magically enhanced AR?

[Library Ogre]

Interesting take on Ogre origins. I like the Landsknecht adaptation to the Knight and Ogre class as well.

Why is the Way of the Cleaver limited to use against non-magical armor?

More specifically, non-magical AR. So it won't work against a Cloak of Armor (AR 14) or Leather of Iron (AR 15), but will function fine against weightless plate armor. I'd probably let it work against Armor of Ithan, since it creates a suit of plate mail.

What about a suit of plate armor with a magically enhanced AR?

It's non-magical AR is 14 or greater, so it's not a problem. A suit of studded leather with a magically enhanced AR wouldn't.

[dreicunan]

Interesting take on Ogre origins. I like the Landsknecht adaptation to the Knight and Ogre class as well.

Why is the Way of the Cleaver limited to use against non-magical armor?

More specifically, non-magical AR. So it won't work against a Cloak of Armor (AR 14) or Leather of Iron (AR 15), but will function fine against weightless plate armor. I'd probably let it work against Armor of Ithan, since it creates a suit of plate mail.

What about a suit of plate armor with a magically enhanced AR?

It's non-magical AR is 14 or greater, so it's not a problem. A suit of studded leather with a magically enhanced AR wouldn't.

Ah, so it is more about "this only works against heavy armor as defined by the original AR" than it is about the magic. Thank you.

[Whiskeyjack]

That's some cool background for them. I like the competitive nature against other ogres. It gives them a different flavour than just big brutes.
My only issue is the origin part, as I recall their origin is from the battle of gods? Or is it just the gromek and tezcat?

[kiralon]

Very nice, Ogre Knights. I'm going to take these guys out for a spin. The earthshakers have some competition.

[Library Ogre]

That's some cool background for them. I like the competitive nature against other ogres. It gives them a different flavour than just big brutes.
My only issue is the origin part, as I recall their origin is from the battle of gods? Or is it just the gromek and tezcat?

Honestly, no clue, and Palladium history is so fragmentary that I might be right.

It's more I got a wild hair. I was thinking about how I prefered the 1e size, where they were 6-8 feet tall, instead of 7-12. Then I remembered that True Atlanteans grow throughout their very long lives, and thought it would be interesting to combine the two; the genetic engineering that made TAs different from humans gone feral, creating ogres, who lived longer than normal humans, grew all their lives, and were a weird combination of Fezzik and Willem Dafoe, physically.

[Library Ogre]

Aside from dreicunan's confusion, any other problems with the mechanics?

[kiralon]

No, looks solid.
With the ogres, rather than a disarming manoeuvre, have the pike have the little hook them that catches shields so when they do their special attack, the pike slide up over the shield and is pulled back suddenly so the hook catches the shield and pull the shield forward and down (for the shield wielder) so the next attack can't be parried (special hook attack works on weapons too so the person affected cannot parry the next attack against him, unless it gets back to his action first).
Knocking shields out of people hands is pretty hard as you normally have to break the straps or them be using a tiny shield.

[Library Ogre]

Ok, made a couple edits for clarity, and posted as linked below.

[dreicunan]

Aside from dreicunan's confusion, any other problems with the mechanics?

"For those with natural armor whose AR exceeds 14, Landsknechts may attempt to weaken their armor. The Landsknecht receives no bonus to hit or damage, but on any critical strike, they may either roll double damage, or reduce the opponent’s AR by 1 point (to a minimum of half their original AR, rounded up). Lost points of AR return like hit points, either through natural healing, bio-regeneration, or healing magics."

Well, I guess here is another bit of "confusion" on my part: What is the logical justification for a natural AR of 13 being immune to being lowered when a natural AR of 20 can be lowered to 10 (or one of 14 to 7)? Clearly the mechanism for reducing it is based on the idea that you are damaging (and thus compromising) their armor, so why would an AR 13 suddenly be immune to being compromised?

[kiralon]

Well, I guess here is another bit of "confusion" on my part: What is the logical justification for a natural AR of 13 being immune to being lowered when a natural AR of 20 can be lowered to 10 (or one of 14 to 7)? Clearly the mechanism for reducing it is based on the idea that you are damaging (and thus compromising) their armor, so why would an AR 13 suddenly be immune to being compromised?

My guess is the crossover to metal armour. Their cleavers should be called apriscatole.

[Library Ogre]

Aside from dreicunan's confusion, any other problems with the mechanics?

"For those with natural armor whose AR exceeds 14, Landsknechts may attempt to weaken their armor. The Landsknecht receives no bonus to hit or damage, but on any critical strike, they may either roll double damage, or reduce the opponent’s AR by 1 point (to a minimum of half their original AR, rounded up). Lost points of AR return like hit points, either through natural healing, bio-regeneration, or healing magics."

Well, I guess here is another bit of "confusion" on my part: What is the logical justification for a natural AR of 13 being immune to being lowered when a natural AR of 20 can be lowered to 10 (or one of 14 to 7)? Clearly the mechanism for reducing it is based on the idea that you are damaging (and thus compromising) their armor, so why would an AR 13 suddenly be immune to being compromised?

Partially, it is an arbitrary division because one needs to be made somewhere. Since Full suits of Heavy armor start at AR 14, that was the number I went with.

Now, lower than 13 you're looking at more pliable armors, usually. Not frangible like mail, not crushable like plates.

To an extent, though, it is a purely arbitrary number.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmmm! Not sure it's something I'd necessarily like to see written into Canon, but as far as a fresh take goes, it holds up surprisingly well!

Magic calling science crude does belie a few biases though Methinks

[Soldier of Od]

But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden.

Very interesting! Just curious, does the above sentence come from anything you've read in canon or is it part of your personal take on ogres?

Ogres didn't appear on the Palladium World until around 4100 years ago - how does that compare with how long ago Atlantis disappeared in relation to present day Rifts? (I'm not that familiar with the Rifts timeline.) If it fits that would be nice! (though I understand the relationship between inter-dimensional timelines might not be the same!)

I made a few alternatives to the way of the horse and lance for knights myself, for the same reasons (horsemanship being no use to most wolfen trolls and ogre, etc.), and to create other weapon specialist options - they already exist in the books with the sword specialist knight in the Order of Bletherad. I also created similar specialist options for dwarfs fighting against taller opponents and human-sized folk fighting giants.

Take a look at the Half-Ogre in Rifter #83 for more on the relationship between ogres and humans!

[Library Ogre]

Hmmm! Not sure it's something I'd necessarily like to see written into Canon, but as far as a fresh take goes, it holds up surprisingly well!

Magic calling science crude does belie a few biases though Methinks

Compared to the science of Phase World or Rifts, 21st century medicine is crude. We can't even regrow organs!

But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden.

Very interesting! Just curious, does the above sentence come from anything you've read in canon or is it part of your personal take on ogres?

Just me playing around with the idea.

Ogres didn't appear on the Palladium World until around 4100 years ago - how does that compare with how long ago Atlantis disappeared in relation to present day Rifts? (I'm not that familiar with the Rifts timeline.) If it fits that would be nice! (though I understand the relationship between inter-dimensional timelines might not be the same!)

TBH, doesn't matter. History in Palladium is fragmentary, 4100 year is a long time to forget things, and Rifts go through time and space.

For all we know, the first ogres were born on Palladium 4100 years ago, then rifted back 100,000 years ago to found colonies all over the place.

[dreicunan]

Hmmm! Not sure it's something I'd necessarily like to see written into Canon, but as far as a fresh take goes, it holds up surprisingly well!

Magic calling science crude does belie a few biases though Methinks

Compared to the science of Phase World or Rifts, 21st century medicine is crude. We can't even regrow organs!

But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden.

Very interesting! Just curious, does the above sentence come from anything you've read in canon or is it part of your personal take on ogres?

Just me playing around with the idea.

Ogres didn't appear on the Palladium World until around 4100 years ago - how does that compare with how long ago Atlantis disappeared in relation to present day Rifts? (I'm not that familiar with the Rifts timeline.) If it fits that would be nice! (though I understand the relationship between inter-dimensional timelines might not be the same!)

TBH, doesn't matter. History in Palladium is fragmentary, 4100 year is a long time to forget things, and Rifts go through time and space.

For all we know, the first ogres were born on Palladium 4100 years ago, then rifted back 100,000 years ago to found colonies all over the place.

Just like Techno-wizardry and Rifts Earth...

[Axelmania]

I want to know how many ogre male wizards use Metamorphosis: Human to look like humans and then hook up with human females who then give birth to ogres and have no idea why.

Or would that even work? If you can use your native reproductive abilities while in a metamorphed form then... HELEN OF TROY

[Library Ogre]

I want to know how many ogre male wizards use Metamorphosis: Human to look like humans and then hook up with human females who then give birth to ogres and have no idea why.

Or would that even work? If you can use your native reproductive abilities while in a metamorphed form then... HELEN OF TROY

Not a bad idea, actually. Certainly less traumatic for the women.

[SolCannibal]

But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden.

Very interesting! Just curious, does the above sentence come from anything you've read in canon or is it part of your personal take on ogres?

Ogres didn't appear on the Palladium World until around 4100 years ago - how does that compare with how long ago Atlantis disappeared in relation to present day Rifts? (I'm not that familiar with the Rifts timeline.) If it fits that would be nice! (though I understand the relationship between inter-dimensional timelines might not be the same!)

Really? Considering i have never seen anything beyond the vague allusions of common parentage or comparisons to Neanderthals description-wise, that's a book reference i would really like to get a look into.

The angle exploring them as a sort of unxpected colateral of the True Atlanteans tweaking of themselves in relation to mainstream humanity is a great idea. I still like to lean into the "lost hominid branch" angle of sorts, but still feels mighty tempting.

Now going on a Rifts bender - how do you feel about the idea of an ogre of human upbringing trying to pass itself as (mutated) human and join the armed forces of some power like Free Quebec, the CS or the NGR? Yes, sounds ridiculous, specially with the bionic str, 7-12 feet tall ogres of the Revised Conversion Book, but i'm kind of fishing for twists and turns one might take from that as an starting point.

[Library Ogre]

Now going on a Rifts bender - how do you feel about the idea of an ogre of human upbringing trying to pass itself as (mutated) human and join the armed forces of some power like Free Quebec, the CS or the NGR? Yes, sounds ridiculous, specially with the bionic str, 7-12 feet tall ogres of the Revised Conversion Book, but i'm kind of fishing for twists and turns one might take from that as an starting point.

I think they'd run into trouble trying it, simply because that's the sort of thing that would be genetically tested. While they are human, their differences are likely to be enough, IMO, that a racist government that wanted to expel non-humans would not find them human enough (especially FQ, who didn't like Dog Boys or psi-stalkers, IIRC; a human mutant that was 12 feet tall wasn't going to be on their "acceptable" list).

The NGR might go for it; I haven't read the newer stuff, but they were at least, ostensibly, somewhat open to non-humans serving, so a human mutant might fly.

[SolCannibal]

Now going on a Rifts bender - how do you feel about the idea of an ogre of human upbringing trying to pass itself as (mutated) human and join the armed forces of some power like Free Quebec, the CS or the NGR? Yes, sounds ridiculous, specially with the bionic str, 7-12 feet tall ogres of the Revised Conversion Book, but i'm kind of fishing for twists and turns one might take from that as an starting point.

I think they'd run into trouble trying it, simply because that's the sort of thing that would be genetically tested. While they are human, their differences are likely to be enough, IMO, that a racist government that wanted to expel non-humans would not find them human enough (especially FQ, who didn't like Dog Boys or psi-stalkers, IIRC; a human mutant that was 12 feet tall wasn't going to be on their "acceptable" list).

The NGR might go for it; I haven't read the newer stuff, but they were at least, ostensibly, somewhat open to non-humans serving, so a human mutant might fly.

Yes, 12 feet tall would definitely be too much, but 7' feet tall mutant, that has (at least) a human mother and has always lived in the 'burbs of another of the CS states , possibly one of the newer ones, well, he might sincerely try.

And if it does not pan out, who knows, still try to contribute in whatever way he can - Psi-Stalkers are mutants, sometimes seen as barbaric raiders and yet got accepted by the CS military. A guy can hope, right?

Hmmm, maybe Lone Star could be a place to play this kind of "mutants for humanity" card for the sake of aceptance: the population is somewhat more educated than in other states, having a number of passionate mutant as their meatshields instead of Pecos Bandit fodder could play in their favor and studying the peculiarities of a mostly unkonwn strain of humanity could certainly appeal to the scientific/wicked interests of a number of the leading minds in the instalation. Thought not exactly something that bodes well for one's future.

[Axelmania]

I want to know how many ogre male wizards use Metamorphosis: Human to look like humans and then hook up with human females who then give birth to ogres and have no idea why.

Or would that even work? If you can use your native reproductive abilities while in a metamorphed form then... HELEN OF TROY

Not a bad idea, actually. Certainly less traumatic for the women.

Do you think that would be possible though, or would the women give birth to humans since the ogres were in human form when morphed?

I'm thinking "you're temporarily sterile while you're metamorphed" could be the simplest answer to avoid the "seemingly-immaculate-conception-via-Metamorphosis:Mist" dilemma, although allowing that would explain stuff like Zeus + Danae = Perseus.

[kiralon]

I'm not sure if mist has m(any) sex organs, and mist wouldn't have any dna to deliver, and even if it did it would be mist dna rather than human dna. I'm pretty sure mist can't get a human pregnant if an elf can't.

[Axelmania]

DNA is a good question though, moreso in high-science settings like Rifts/HU where it could actually be tested, of course. Would a human wizard using Metamorphosis: Animal to impersonate a dalmatian who had his blood taken in animal form read as dalmatian DNA or human DNA?

The "less-traumatic ogre wizard" thing is actually more feasible in 1st ed, where spells like "Turn Self to Mist" and "Size of the Behemoth" (cast it on the human lad) were merely 3rd level. Of course, back then the size difference was less than an issue because ogres were only 6-8ft instead of 7-12ft, but I think those still could've been pretty useful.

Ogres could also become Druids who in 1st ed could morph into animals even at level 1, rather than a 6th level ability in 2nd ed. In the 1st-ed case it said (p147)

"a complete transformation from man into animal, with all the animal's abilities (unlike the metamorphosis spell)."

This is contrast where 2nd ed where it works exactly like the spell (just at half cost).

1st ed "Metamorphosis (self)" was a 5th level spell (2 higher than 'self to mist', but still accessible via the wizard's blood cauldron) which emphasizes "does not gain the abilities of the creature"

In the case of a mouse he can "speak and cast spells as no normal mouse could". Never mind whether or not mice actually have the mouth structure required to speak language (could they?)

So I would think that in 1st ed, an Ogre Wizard using metamorphosis to become a mouse would still carry ogre-siring DNA, whereas an Ogre Druid shapeshifting into his mouse-totem would carry mouse-siring DNA.

[SolCannibal]

I want to know how many ogre male wizards use Metamorphosis: Human to look like humans and then hook up with human females who then give birth to ogres and have no idea why.

Or would that even work? If you can use your native reproductive abilities while in a metamorphed form then... HELEN OF TROY

Not a bad idea, actually. Certainly less traumatic for the women.

Do you think that would be possible though, or would the women give birth to humans since the ogres were in human form when morphed?

Nah, children would be ogres (or half-ogres, if one uses the Rifter article previously mentioned). Shape change doesn't change one's nature or DNA. That is an unique power on itself, as shown by the Two-Faced Star-People (WB 15: Spirit West, pg. 123-124), also known as Erishiks (Aliens Unlimited, pg. 154) in the Milky Way Galaxy of Heroes Unlimited. Specially noteworthy in that in PPE rich settings like Rifts Earth they also have access to Chiang-Ku level shapechanging (already superior the usual draconic shapechanging or metamorphosis spell).

PS: not really relevant to the subject, but Spirit West also mentions in passing the Two-Faced Star-People/Erishiks were once native to the 3 Galaxies too - until the Cosmo Knights exterminated them all there, that is (what makes me think of Rom the Space Knight's genocidal crussade on the Dire Wraiths in the original Marvel series).

I'm thinking "you're temporarily sterile while you're metamorphed" could be the simplest answer to avoid the "seemingly-immaculate-conception-via-Metamorphosis:Mist" dilemma, although allowing that would explain stuff like Zeus + Danae = Perseus.

Honestly a non-issue imho. The individual ain't even solid for its body to interact with another person's and inseminate her.

DNA is a good question though, moreso in high-science settings like Rifts/HU where it could actually be tested, of course. Would a human wizard using Metamorphosis: Animal to impersonate a dalmatian who had his blood taken in animal form read as dalmatian DNA or human DNA?

The "less-traumatic ogre wizard" thing is actually more feasible in 1st ed, where spells like "Turn Self to Mist" and "Size of the Behemoth" (cast it on the human lad) were merely 3rd level. Of course, back then the size difference was less than an issue because ogres were only 6-8ft instead of 7-12ft, but I think those still could've been pretty useful.

Ogres could also become Druids who in 1st ed could morph into animals even at level 1, rather than a 6th level ability in 2nd ed. In the 1st-ed case it said (p147)

"a complete transformation from man into animal, with all the animal's abilities (unlike the metamorphosis spell)."

This is contrast where 2nd ed where it works exactly like the spell (just at half cost).

1st ed "Metamorphosis (self)" was a 5th level spell (2 higher than 'self to mist', but still accessible via the wizard's blood cauldron) which emphasizes "does not gain the abilities of the creature"

In the case of a mouse he can "speak and cast spells as no normal mouse could". Never mind whether or not mice actually have the mouth structure required to speak language (could they?)

So I would think that in 1st ed, an Ogre Wizard using metamorphosis to become a mouse would still carry ogre-siring DNA, whereas an Ogre Druid shapeshifting into his mouse-totem would carry mouse-siring DNA.

Those are some pretty interesting points - and thoughts - on the differences of the class between editions and won't deny, if i had both the books might be sorely tempted to port over the earlier one as a OCC variant, much in the vein of the druid subtypes we get in Rifts England and make some extra lore as i go along just for the funsies. Good stuff.

[Soldier of Od]

But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden.

Very interesting! Just curious, does the above sentence come from anything you've read in canon or is it part of your personal take on ogres?

Ogres didn't appear on the Palladium World until around 4100 years ago - how does that compare with how long ago Atlantis disappeared in relation to present day Rifts? (I'm not that familiar with the Rifts timeline.) If it fits that would be nice! (though I understand the relationship between inter-dimensional timelines might not be the same!)

Really? Considering i have never seen anything beyond the vague allusions of common parentage or comparisons to Neanderthals description-wise, that's a book reference i would really like to get a look into.

PFRPG main book, page 281.

[Prysus]

But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden.

Very interesting! Just curious, does the above sentence come from anything you've read in canon or is it part of your personal take on ogres?

Ogres didn't appear on the Palladium World until around 4100 years ago - how does that compare with how long ago Atlantis disappeared in relation to present day Rifts? (I'm not that familiar with the Rifts timeline.) If it fits that would be nice! (though I understand the relationship between inter-dimensional timelines might not be the same!)

Really? Considering i have never seen anything beyond the vague allusions of common parentage or comparisons to Neanderthals description-wise, that's a book reference i would really like to get a look into.

PFRPG main book, page 281.

Greetings and Salutations. Page 279 of the PF2 main book states they started appearing during the Age of Elves (so between 10,000 and 18,000 years ago using the timeline on page 281). I take the 281 passage to mean the first Ogres appear in that territory, effectively leading to the Domain of Monsters 100 years later, not that they first appeared in the world. Just my thoughts on the matter. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Soldier of Od]

D'oh! Well spotted, Prysus!

[SolCannibal]

But, sometimes, ogres are born to humans unbidden.

Very interesting! Just curious, does the above sentence come from anything you've read in canon or is it part of your personal take on ogres?

Ogres didn't appear on the Palladium World until around 4100 years ago - how does that compare with how long ago Atlantis disappeared in relation to present day Rifts? (I'm not that familiar with the Rifts timeline.) If it fits that would be nice! (though I understand the relationship between inter-dimensional timelines might not be the same!)

Really? Considering i have never seen anything beyond the vague allusions of common parentage or comparisons to Neanderthals description-wise, that's a book reference i would really like to get a look into.

PFRPG main book, page 281.

Thanks a lot. The blurb has a very clear "first reccorded appearance" of ogres, that leaves room for them to have been around but unnoticed for much longer. Much like "the emergence of humankind" is dated to 20,000 years past, but Yin-Sloth Jungles mention in passing budding human cultures that were trampled amidst the Age of Chaos (100,000 years ago) by forces barely aware of them amidst their own fighting.

And it seems Prysus spotted refferences confirming my gut feeling. Thanks a lot.

[RockJock]

Love this! The back story is great, if it ends up becoming official or not. The non mounted option for Knights/Paladins is needed. My guess is a lot of us have home ruled something to give bigger races a non-mounted combat option, so it is nice to see something a little more professional if you will.

[Hell knight]

Very cool well done i like this a lot going to have to use this for shur , had a Oger mage npc in my last game sadly never got to use him .

[kiralon]

the mount for an ogre is a melech

[SolCannibal]

the mount for an ogre is a melech

And now i'm thinking of giving Splynn a cavalry of Melech-mounted Ogre T-men (Atlantis & Europe being mentioned as places in Rifts Earth they are known to exist).

Or i could make them escaped slaves going from hideout to hideout, something between Spartacus' army and mongol raiders, instead...
Splynn has minions aplenty, option number two it is.

[Axelmania]

Ogre Maxi-Man "Me go hunt human female, no snoo snoo for you cousin! You look like pork!"
Ogress T-Monster Woman "That okay cousin, my mount is a melech"

Shape change doesn't change one's nature or DNA. That is an unique power on itself, as shown by the Two-Faced Star-People (WB 15: Spirit West, pg. 123-124), also known as Erishiks (Aliens Unlimited, pg. 154) in the Milky Way Galaxy of Heroes Unlimited. Specially noteworthy in that in PPE rich settings like Rifts Earth they also have access to Chiang-Ku level shapechanging (already superior the usual draconic shapechanging or metamorphosis spell).

Not sure what you mean by nature, but where does it say that Chaing-Ku or those using Metamorphosis: X don't change their DNA?

PS: not really relevant to the subject, but Spirit West also mentions in passing the Two-Faced Star-People/Erishiks were once native to the 3 Galaxies too - until the Cosmo Knights exterminated them all there, that is (what makes me think of Rom the Space Knight's genocidal crussade on the Dire Wraiths in the original Marvel series).

I guess genocide isn't just for Lazlo!

Honestly a non-issue imho. The individual ain't even solid for its body to interact with another person's and inseminate her.

Who's to say how solid mist is? Isn't that pretty much what air elementals are yet they can get hit by magic?