minions created on ley line nexuses

[Axelmania]

HU2:

p317: being within 200ft of a nexus point doubles the damage of magic incantations/wards/circles.
p329: skeletons do 1d6 damage
p333: monster insects do 3d6 damage, snakes do 1d6 damage
p335: shadow beasts do 3d6 (light) or 5d6 (shadow) damage

What are opinions regarding the prospect of doubling these damages when those spells are cast on a nexus? The stats don't seem that impressive compared to most super abilities, but this might make them a little more competetive.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I see no reason to modify the damage from the creations and summons of the referenced spells. Any damage is 2nd hand from the actual effects of spell cast.

The only thing that can be effected to the refenced spells by being cast on a LL or LLN is the duration of the effects.

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The reason spells are weaker then simmiler super powers is that a mage has more choices to what he has at his disposal. Opposed to the super powers 'I got this one thing I can do.'

[Axelmania]

I can't see any reason NOT to though, I mean who's to say what's first-hand and second-hand when it comes to spells?

Like in Rifts, presumably you'd double the 2D4x100 for Annihilate, even though what the spell actually does is summon anti-matter, so maybe that damage should be fixed too?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The canon text says the magic has the damage bonus to it. Not anything it creates.
Of course the spells you referenced are all different in their core concepts. So any way a responder said could of be argued in the negitive by anyone else.

Lets take things one by one.
Animate and Control Dead, the controled corpses only do basic hand to hand damage, so for there to be a bonus to the damage the controled dead's PS would of had to been increaced.

Monster Insect, upsizes a insect to the size of a dog or horse, there is no differentiation in the damage, bug hand to hand damages, between the two sizes even thou it costs more for the horse sized insect.

Sword to Snakes, the damages are by bites of the snakes. Again hand to hand damage.

Summon Shadow Beast, Summons a shadow beast. The shadow beast does hand to hand damage.

Staying within the concepts of the A&CD, MI, & SSB spells only the durations can be doubled from being cast on a LLN. Only the StS spell can be cognatively argued to do more damage because the snakes are The Spell.

Since you refenced a spell outside the HU game...

Annihilate, creates a force field around a magicly created vacuume. Into which a small bit of anti-matter is summoned. Then the spell also allows the force field to be moved with the AM in it to a target. Then when it contacts a target the Force Field expands and contains the effects of the AM/M mutual annihilation energy liberation. Then the Force Field contracts and the bad radiation partical are banished from the plane of existance the spell was used in.

No where in the spell effects does it say THE SPELL does the damage. Since THE SPELL does NOT do the damage there is no cognative reason to modify the damage done.

Now to stay within the spell consept of the Annihilate spell you can increase the range the force field can be sent, making the force field bigger when it expands, and increse the duration the expanded force field says in existance. The last one could be argued to be a reason for the Annihilate spell to do more damage then the listed damage.

Yes, there is a reason for stepping away from the 'KISS princible' that the PB game system was based in to answer the question. You asked for someone to think about the question you asked.

There is a reason why D&D rules sets are complicated. Because there are so few blanket rules within that system.

[Axelmania]

If it's not the spell doing the damage, then Annihilate wouldn't operate like a "magic spell attack" or "magic energy attack" as one of the things that split a Zavor?

That might be helpful in understanding the breadth of 317's "damage of magic spells" since we have specific examples on CB169 (Call Lightning, Fire Ball, Circle of Fire, Energy Bolt, River of Lava) which are used, so we can look at their text.

64 "spell creates a lightning bolt"
76 "warlocks creates a large fireball"
78 "warlock can create a boiling river"

So in either case it seems the verb "create" is important since then it's definitely "magic" doing the damage (it splits a zavor) so the damage would be multiplied by a nexus.

As opposed to like.. using magic spell telekinesis to throw a cow at a zavor, which presumably wouldn't split it (or hurt it, you'd need to throw a tree or a chunk of silver/iron at them)

BOM 150 phrases it "creates a small black orb" followed by "this is anti-matter that has been brought" which should make us question what "create" actually means in magical terms. The black orb IS the magical anti-matter. The orb is "created" yet it wasn't create out of nothing, it was created out of matter brought from another dimension.

So since "create" is used for annihilate, it seems like it follows the same phrasing pattern as Lbolt/Fball/ROL and might also be considered a Zavor-splitting "magic spell attack" that might enjoy damage-multiplication from Nexi too.

Annihilate's consecutive sentences mean we no longer know that "create" necessarily means "out of nothing". It might simply refer to directing matter (or anti-matter) from elsewhere. Plus this seems pretty obvious since we have spells named "Create Zombie" / "Create Golem" made from components rather than thin air.

If "create" only meant 100% made from magic ether then those should probably be called "Raise Zombie" or "Assemble Golem".

[drewkitty ~..~]

Because when you ask the question here where you will get a critical analisis of the question you posed, you most likely will not get an answer that will not be supportive of your baises.

The only spell in the opening post that is even simmiler to 'Annihilate' is the 'Summon Shadow Beast' spell. Even then the two spells diverge in concepts to the point that neather can be used as a counter argument basis for arguing against any answer you would of gotten for the OP Q.

I am not going to argue with you. You asked a question and you recived an answer that was based off the text of the spells & rules through critical thinking. If the answers not match your baises, you are free to ignore them in your games.
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If it's not the spell doing the damage, then Annihilate wouldn't operate like a "magic spell attack" or "magic energy attack" as one of the things that split a Zavor?

Answer: That is correct for the A&CD, MI, and A.
However, if you were playing in the PF game the question should of been posed in the PF forum.

Shadow Beasts are inherently magical, so are not a part of the things/beings that do not split a Zavor.
Swords to Snakes is arguably something that would split a Zavor.

[Axelmania]

StS is a magical transformation, not a magical creation. Would that mean someone under the effect of metamorphosis: animal would split them by biting them?

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip... Would that mean someone under the effect of metamorphosis: animal would split them by biting them?

See my coments about Monster Insect.

[Axelmania]

You pointed out that HTH damage is fixed regardless of it being dog-size or horse-size.

I'm not sure what that's getting at. Do you think maybe it is "magical damage" and that's why size doesn't seem to influence it?

Could say the same of golems: punches do the same whether they're 6ft or 18ft.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Staying within the concepts of the A&CD, MI, & SSB spells only the durations can be doubled from being cast on a LLN.

That the damge is not magical in nature.

[Axelmania]

I guess I was using annihilate to show that "create" can simply mean "bring into this world from another dimension" which is what you do with a Shadow Beast.

Since animated dead / gigantified insects aren't brought from other dimensions it wouldn't apply to them.