Problem players.

[Hell knight]

A question for my fellow GM's , i have dealt with troubled players before . But i have never had this one , in my latest fantasy game i have a new female player who is playing a elf thief . But she do not like other players being elfs that she goes out of her way to kill there character , she must be the only elf . After derailing 3 games i told her she had to go , she did not like that is there any other way i could of handled it.

[kiralon]

There is playing in character, but it is also a shared game, and everyone is just as responsible for the having fun as the DM and if a player has to kill other characters because of her own quirk she is best off finding a group that matches her play style otherwise everyone will be unhappy. So in my opinion you did the right thing. She cannot dictate to other players what they can and can't be, and murdering them is not the answer. The game is about having fun, and there is no point doing it if you aren't.

[The Dark Elf]

She sounds spoilt. Good riddance. You dont want that type of selfish play in a group past time.

[Warshield73]

Have to agree with kiralon and Dark Elf. I can't imagine playing with a person like that much less trying to GM them. I have to imagine that if you had not asked her to leave that at least a few other players would have left.

[Hell knight]

Have to agree with kiralon and Dark Elf. I can't imagine playing with a person like that much less trying to GM them. I have to imagine that if you had not asked her to leave that at least a few other players would have left.

She made my game a pain , it was not easy get the players to go on the quest . My players asked me if they could kill her character i was going to say yes , then it hit me if they do god knows what she be like.

[Hell knight]

There is playing in character, but it is also a shared game, and everyone is just as responsible for the having fun as the DM and if a player has to kill other characters because of her own quirk she is best off finding a group that matches her play style otherwise everyone will be unhappy. So in my opinion you did the right thing. She cannot dictate to other players what they can and can't be, and murdering them is not the answer. The game is about having fun, and there is no point doing it if you aren't.

Thanks i thought i did right , but these days you have no idea what might trigger a person .

[dreicunan]

I'm amazed you were that patient with the player. That is a crazy quirk. You did the right thing.

[Hotrod]

A question for my fellow GM's , i have dealt with troubled players before . But i have never had this one , in my latest fantasy game i have a new female player who is playing a elf thief . But she do not like other players being elfs that she goes out of her way to kill there character , she must be the only elf . After derailing 3 games i told her she had to go , she did not like that is there any other way i could of handled it.

It's tricky balancing playing in character and teamwork. My first-ever character got murdered by a fellow player because my P.C. was an elf and his was a goblin. It was a dick move, and the GM allowed it, though he warned that any more team-killing would result in "GM Lightning" killing the perpetrator.

I'm actually ok with having player characters go up against each other as long as both sides see it coming and are ok with it. From a dramatic and storytelling perspective, it can add some interest to have in-character tension within the party. Straight-up premeditated murder, though? I would step in and stop it. In this case, I'd say you showed more tolerance for her shenanigans than I would have.

[Whiskeyjack]

Just out of curiosity, what was her characters alignment?

[Veknironth]

Well, in my old campaign we had a few instances of PC on PC violence. They were always precipitated by some in game action or behavior, never by an Elven Beta fish. Still what worked for us should work for others. I recommend in game consequences. These come in two main types - from the GM or from the players.

1. GM - any murder that happens in game will present the same problems to the murderer as in real life. What does the killer do with the body? Is anyone missing the deceased? Is there evidence? Will there be an investigation? Who is looking into the murder? While the PFRPG detective won’t have the benefits of modern forensics, they will have some superior magic and psionic tools. Communing with the dead can give you the killer’s identity immediately. Read Object on any evidence can lead the posse right to the killer. Words of Truth can secure an iron clad confession or verdict at a trial.

You as a GM are not unfairly punishing the player’s behavior. You are merely applying the in game consequences of the characters actions. You could even go as far as asking someone not in the campaign to act as an investigator. You send that person messages and they react as you give them information or ask you questions. It’s a completely impartial investigation.

2. PC actions - the other PCs in the group are going to notice all the deaths in the group. What are they PCs going to do about the fact that all the elves who join them seem to disappear mysteriously except for one? That is awfully damned suspicious. They could ask this thief to account for her whereabouts or just buy a scroll of Words of Truth and have everyone answer questions of each other. That would expose the thief quickly. Then it’s up to the other PCs to decide what justice should be meted out.

Alternatively, the PC group might just decide that the elf is a jinx, or is at risk of being the next elf killed and not want to risk running into this killer. They could simply leave her character behind. We did this to a character. The guy was doing a great job of being annoying in character. The rest of us, also in character, hopped on a boat without telling the annoying character. Just because the player shows up at the table it doesn’t mean the PCs have to travel with the character in game.

Now, if the consequences of the PC take that character out of the group, and the player makes a new character and plays it the same way, you’re probably stuck with disinviting the person.

-Vek
“Have the elf thief transmuted into another race.”

[Hell knight]

Just out of curiosity, what was her characters alignment?

I stll had her sheet in papers she was unprincipled .

[Hotrod]

I respect Vek's approach, but I don't agree with it. The thing about PC-vs-PC murder is that it can effectively ruin an entire game or even campaign for the victim's player.

I've only ever seen it done once. As I was on the receiving end, I can attest to feeling rather betrayed in real life when the GM informed me that a fellow player's character had deliberately poisoned the food he'd given me. It being my first RPG game ever, it took a few more minutes for me to understand that I'd just been kicked out of playing with the group five minutes into my first adventure; I stuck around to watch the rest.

I felt no better when other members of the party ate the flesh of my character and split up the bones between them (elf bones were worth some coin in 1st Edition), even though these actions were perfectly in-line with the descriptions of the races in the book and how they related to elves. See, there was a troll and a kobold in the group too. These were some super edgy middle school boys playing at being evil at a Boy Scout camp.

As a GM, I like to give players a lot of latitude, including the freedom to do some objectively evil things, but I intervene when the effect of a player's action is to unilaterally kick another player out of the group or ruin their experience. When it comes to group games, there are three cardinal rules: Be on time, have fun, and don't be a dick. Murdering a fellow player's character is such an egregious case of dickishness that, were it to happen in my game, I'd pause the game just before the killing stroke, give the perpetrating player a time out, turn the player's character into an N.P.C. until a natural pause in the game, and play on. At the next break, I'd have a quiet conversation with the player to understand and settle the underlying issue.

[Veknironth]

Well, for reference I put the the instances in my older games in which PCs were killed by other PCs or had consequences for their actions applied below my signature. I doubt people care, but they're down there just as examples.

On topic, I don't think the thief in the OP is functional in game. The player would need some really good reason to just kill any elf that happens to be traveling with her. Like how did this develop? Has the elf been doing this all her life? If so how has she gotten away with this murder spree? If not, why is she suddenly killing elves for no apparent reason? It might make sense if the thief was a dwarf. But once the thief exhibits that behavior, there are really only two options to remedy it. One is out of game, and I don't know if hell knight spoke to her out of the game or not. That is tough because now you're engaging in real, face-to-face conflict with a real person. There is a much higher risk of hurt feelings and losing the player for good. Of course, it also is the most direct way to get your point across. But if the player won't change her ways, perhaps saying this is a game in which you can do whatever you want, you're pretty well stuck not inviting her to subsequent sessions.

I was recommending an alternate option; taking care of the PC's actions in game in hopes that the player will learn that there are consequences for actions in game. I think that's good for PCs in general. You take a group of young people like Hotrod's PC murder at the hands of middle school kids. They probably aren't at an age in which they consider consequences on any scale. But, if you have relatively sane adults, you can punish the anarchist behavior of a PC the same way society does it here in the real world with peer pressure and social or governmental institutions. It also leads to some really fun role-playing.

I started playing PRRPG at around 19 years of age, so I didn't get the evil boy scout experience. However, when I was younger, I did play AD&D (yeah I'm old, get off my lawn) and have something very similar to Hotrod's experience. I had a barbarian assassinated for no apparent reason other than the assassin figured he was an assassin and had to assassinate someone. I mean, there's a chart for it and everything. Admittedly, I was perplexed. There was no precipitating action or reason that I could see for the assassination.

So, I think the Thief's behavior is preposterous and unwarranted. But, I think the PC's taking justice into their hands if they realized their co-traveler had killed three of their comrades is fine. The next step down would be turning that character in to the authorities. The third option is the characters just leaving that character behind. All of those are going to cause some hurt feelings, but I think it's less painful for all if you tell the player "We don't like the way you play, so please don't play with us" as opposed to "Hey, your character was a murderer and that's what happens to murders." If it's handled in game there is the option of making a new PC and playing a more collaborative style.

-Vek
"Below is useless stories of another group's adventures."

1. While the group is in a knockdown, drag out melee combat one of the characters (A paladin of all things) was picking locks of cells, trying to get first crack at whatever loot might have been in them. The group barely won the fight, with the Goblin cobbler running away and 3 of the 5 characters lying unconscious. The paladin was scared by the fleeing cobbler, and ran from it into the room where the fight just happened. The ranger, was upset with the paladin not joining to help when he clearly heard the fight. The ranger kicked the equivocating paladin in the chest. The paladin drew his weapons in response. The ranger did likewise. Melee combat ensued and the ranger rolled a 20 with his flamberge.

2. One of the characters had the eternity blade and was role playing it. Lots of threats to other PCs as the blade started to take over the character. Well, those threats were not taken kindly. Some PCs tried to reason with the eternity blade controlled player who refused to relinquish the weapon. Another character attacked and killed the Eternity blade controlled character in melee combat. I don't know if the guy playing the character with the Eternity Blade wanted a new character or not, but he certainly played his character like he wasn't going to back down and didn't seem upset making his priest next.

3. Character X, a Paladin stopped a pimp beating a prostitute in Old Timiro. The Thieves Guild retaliates and sends a group of thieves/assassins to attack X. X is left for dead. Character S is a mind mage and saves character X and helps to retrieve X's magic hammer from the thieves. In the process, he makes quite the display of using Super TK, TK Forcefield, and Pyrokenesis. S is also using a confederate to help him steal pouches and pursed via teleport object. The Theives Guild finds out and isn't happy about that or the showing up of their goons. The Theives Guild puts a price on the head of the Paladin, but he's granted a place to stay in the palace. They put a mammoth price on the head of the mind mage, who thwarts several attempts on his life. This makes him frustrated and when the aforementioned pimp tracks him down to a casino in NW Old Timiro, the mind mage places a pillar of fire on top of him, burning him to death. This pillar also sets the casino ablaze. The price on the head goes up. Another PC had been trying to get into the Old Timiro Thieves guild. and I swear this is true, is invited to join the group by the mind mage. He waits a solid two months for his chance and when he has it, he kills the mind mage.

4. A Warlock wanted to purchase something from the alchemist, but didn't like the price. He tried to then break into the alchemist shop after hours and steal the item. The wards went off, the guardian incapacitated the warlock, and the character was promptly arrested. The group no longer associated with that warlock.

5. In the Place of Magic adventure there is a huckster who sells useless powders and such. A PC bought some item that was a fake and was upset. The PC ranger had a few lightning arrows, a very expensive and impossible to replace item, but was so angry at being tricked that he fired the arrow at the locked door. The other merchants firmly recommended he leave or be set upon by all the caravan guards.

6. The assassin was involved in a bar fight and was losing. So, she pulled out her knives and killed someone. The city guard was looking for her and she had to be secreted out of town in old clothes, make up, and a wig.

7. An undead hunter sold one of his throwing stars to buy more equipment. The rationalization was that he could better fight the supernatural with better equipment. The star made its way into the hands of another Undead Hunter, who had recruited this guy. That more experienced undead hunter tracked him down and demanded he remand all of his given equipment.

8. The assassin and the paladin often argued about methods, treatment of prisoners, etc.. The assassin moves to kill a prisoner rather than have it follow the group, or whatever. They are both major psionics (1st Edition) and the paladin sighs and uses Evil Eye: Stun to stop the assassin. The assassin saves, and pours all of her ISP into Evil Eye: Death. The paladin fails the save and falls into a coma.

There are more, from other games, but no one made it this far anyway.

[kiralon]

I have seen pc vs pc combat turn into player vs player combat.
Some people get VERY attached to their characters, and don't react well when they get murdered by another player, that's why I say it is also just a game and it's also up to the players as well as the DM to keep the game fun. Breaking something that someone has spent (usually) many hours making to me is akin to kicking over sand castles. I have rarely see pc vs pc combat and go "oh my what good roleplaying", its mostly been "great, four years old's kicking over each others sandcastles, oh the joy" (I have seen friendships broken by rpg griefs).

[Whiskeyjack]

Just out of curiosity, what was her characters alignment?

I stll had her sheet in papers she was unprincipled .

That would have been a stopper right there. Unprincipled characters wouldn't commit murder at all. Personally I would have stopped it due to that explaining g the reason for alignments, or caused her character to suffer a sudden aneurism before she can strike. I'd let her recover, but the next time she tries murder it would be fatal.

[Myrrhibis]

A question for my fellow GM's , i have dealt with troubled players before . But i have never had this one , in my latest fantasy game i have a new female player who is playing a elf thief . But she do not like other players being elfs that she goes out of her way to kill there character , she must be the only elf . After derailing 3 games i told her she had to go , she did not like that is there any other way i could of handled it.

It's tricky balancing playing in character and teamwork. My first-ever character got murdered by a fellow player because my P.C. was an elf and his was a goblin. It was a dick move, and the GM allowed it, though he warned that any more team-killing would result in "GM Lightning" killing the perpetrator.

I'm actually ok with having player characters go up against each other as long as both sides see it coming and are ok with it. From a dramatic and storytelling perspective, it can add some interest to have in-character tension within the party. Straight-up premeditated murder, though? I would step in and stop it. In this case, I'd say you showed more tolerance for her shenanigans than I would have.

This is essentially how my group has handled inter-party conflicts over the last near-30 years of playing.
My co-GM & I will speak privately to a player & let them know that There Will Be Consequences within the game, if they continue.
After that warning, they reap the consequences. If the other *PCs* have 'reason' in-game to kill/betray/etc the PITA character, we don't stop them. OTOH, we also make it clear up front that blatant PvP such as the original post describes, wiouldn't be tolerated. PC personality quirk or not.

If that player continued to be a *******, as in 2nd PC was also anti-party, then the player goes.

We are also clear that inter-player conflict will not be tolerated to suddenly be inter-PC conflict.

So if you have a beef w/ a player, but *over the course of the game thus far* your characters have no reason to hate/betray/kill the other PC(s), then you better not have them roll out of bed hatin'.

We also avoid of this hassle by prohibiting Miscreant, Anarchist, Diabolic PCs... and only rarely allowing Abberant.

[kiralon]

Most pc's alignment is played neutralchaotic goodevil lawful anyway, or in palladiums term priscrunprianarmiscabbediabolical, depending on what sort of day they had irl from my experiences.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I have had players who wanted to go on killing sprees in my HU2 campaign, where all they wanted to do was create hit lists and kill everyone, even NPCs that were not doing anything against them. I have never had one go against other PCs though. Sounds like she just refused to play well with others.

[malaclypse]

We also avoid of this hassle by prohibiting Miscreant, Anarchist, Diabolic PCs... and only rarely allowing Abberant.

I don't see how this solves anything, unless you're one of the folks who think your actions will follow your alignment (rather than the other way around).

Personally, I think PvP in any context - save a one-off, "let's see what would happen if..." scenario that has no bearing on a real game, or unless it's part of the actual gameplay (PC gets controlled somehow and forced to do it, or perhaps they "stage" a fight as a distraction, etc.)- is a bad idea and leads to bad outcomes in nearly every case.

[Curbludgeon]

PvP is ok in games like Paranoia, or maybe Toon, but is to be otherwise discouraged. if a given player needs to feel particularly special, and it isn't in a way that hinders the other players, then accommodations can be made. I could see a player's character being an elf-hating-elf, particularly if that's made clear to other players before character creation, but repeatedly killing other players' characters for the same reason smacks of other motivations which would warrant conversation.

[Lukterran]

I'm completely fine with PC to PC murders. But I would have just had her character get a little of the same treatment she was dishing out. Would have had allowed another PC or had an NPC murder her character. Easy enough to deal with.

[Veknironth]

Well, my main point is that the characters can handle it in game as people might. I don't think the players should be forced to have their PCs act in a manner inconsistent with the character just to appease another player. It's difficult when another person is there because the game is supposed to be collaborative and I think it's best when people are working and playing together. However, the other players shouldn't be held hostage to the problematic person. And it doesn't always have to end in violence. The PCs could just decide to travel somewhere without the annoying PC.

-Vek
"That said, watching two players go at it is quite tense and entertaining."

[foilfodder]

The OP dealt with what was definately a player-based issue. I agree with removing the player.

That said, having a in-character conflict for specifc roleplaying reasons can make games very interesting. Yes, a party full of "goody-two-shoes" is easier to predict as a G.M., but having an actual player character go to the "dark-side" at a pivotal moment is much more exciting than an N.P.C. you introducted three sessions ago turning on them.

G.M.s should be certain the other players won't hold grudges against the "turn-coat" player rather than just the character or it could lead to a toxic situation like originally described.

[Whiskeyjack]

We played a campaign years ago using Gurps Supers. My character had powers based on shadows and darkness, my buddy had a character who was powered by the sun. Even though we were both good guys, and fought side by side on a government sponsored team, we bickered and fought constantly. Our training sessions always ended with blood drawn and us usually getting the crappy jobs or sitting out missions. Played the way we did it, it provided a unique concept to the game but we were both involved in the idea.
One character just straight up murdering another is in no way OK.

[crazycowproductions]

PVP does happen at the table. Generally fighting over an item, Not usually to the death. I did have a player that liked killing PC's once. The weird part was all the other players knew about that players enjoyment of such and where okay with it. generally the player always played an Assassin OCC that worshiped Death God X (x being whomever was available as a death god)

The group however with each new character just wanted to see how hard they could make it on him to kill their characters. Guess theres something to be said for being bored on an island and looking for games.

But generally all I ever dealt with most players was fighting over goods they found.

Did the Elf Thief character have a Psychological Issue that she took for the character? Cause being Unprincipled Alignment alone wouldn't do it. I'm kinda curious if she had a reason beyond "I must be the only elf." Would have been interesting if she took a mental disorder where she decided her character was cursed and had to kill elves and thus Ran away from her homeland to try and stop herself before she saw another elf she would be forced by the Cursed Item of X to kill again.

Thieves do pick up some amusing cursed items... :3 Maybe you can use it as an NPC with this concept to have some fun for your players.

[Hell knight]

PVP does happen at the table. Generally fighting over an item, Not usually to the death. I did have a player that liked killing PC's once. The weird part was all the other players knew about that players enjoyment of such and where okay with it. generally the player always played an Assassin OCC that worshiped Death God X (x being whomever was available as a death god)

The group however with each new character just wanted to see how hard they could make it on him to kill their characters. Guess theres something to be said for being bored on an island and looking for games.

But generally all I ever dealt with most players was fighting over goods they found.

Did the Elf Thief character have a Psychological Issue that she took for the character? Cause being Unprincipled Alignment alone wouldn't do it. I'm kinda curious if she had a reason beyond "I must be the only elf." Would have been interesting if she took a mental disorder where she decided her character was cursed and had to kill elves and thus Ran away from her homeland to try and stop herself before she saw another elf she would be forced by the Cursed Item of X to kill again.

Thieves do pick up some amusing cursed items... :3 Maybe you can use it as an NPC with this concept to have some fun for your players.

If she did might of helped but sadly , she wanted to be the only elf . Even when they were creating there Characters , she was going on she was the elf and nobody else can be one .

[crazycowproductions]

If she did might of helped but sadly , she wanted to be the only elf . Even when they were creating there Characters , she was going on she was the elf and nobody else can be one .

AH. Sad then. Not dealt with the ones that believe that they can only be a race, although did deal with one that didn't like others getting more attention than others and killed any PC that seemed to be in center stage more than they where.

Sadly wasn't running the game, and the GM at the time took offense when my Kobold kept getting her character "almost killed" by getting her to do things that would help our Thief not get noticed.

[Hotrod]

brian.p.grealy.mil@mail.milEven when they were creating there Characters , she was going on she was the elf and nobody else can be one .

I'd have a god alter her race to Goblin; it's a better match to her personality.

[Warshield73]

brian.p.grealy.mil@mail.milEven when they were creating there Characters , she was going on she was the elf and nobody else can be one .

I'd have a god alter her race to Goblin; it's a better match to her personality.

Yeah I have a feeling that would have driven her completely around the bend. Be funny to see though.

[kiralon]

brian.p.grealy.mil@mail.milEven when they were creating there Characters , she was going on she was the elf and nobody else can be one .

I'd have a god alter her race to Goblin; it's a better match to her personality.

Yeah I have a feeling that would have driven her completely around the bend. Be funny to see though.

The Sh*t stirrer in me would have seriously thought of doing the following.

I would have cursed her with the illusion of elf. Everyone looks like an elf, the players, the npc's, the monsters. All elves, they only speak elven and only eat elven food and sing elven songs and poop rainbow skittles.
and to everyone else she would look like a goblin with a "1gp if you kick my ass" sign on her back.
And all the npc's would say things like "We only allow elves to do this and that, and goblins aren't welcome here (while other goblins actually are, just not her)"

But seriously, after the first time she would have had a talking to, after the second time she would be invited to leave the group. I'm in it for the fun, and some griefing can be fun, but if you kill someone's character, whom the player has often spent many many hours setting up and playing because you are an *******, you deserve an asskicking. Its like jumping on someone's sandcastle they have spent 2 days making. If you aren't mature enough to not jump on it. Bugger off and don't come back.

[Warshield73]

brian.p.grealy.mil@mail.milEven when they were creating there Characters , she was going on she was the elf and nobody else can be one .

I'd have a god alter her race to Goblin; it's a better match to her personality.

Yeah I have a feeling that would have driven her completely around the bend. Be funny to see though.

The Sh*t stirrer in me would have seriously thought of doing the following.

I would have cursed her with the illusion of elf. Everyone looks like an elf, the players, the npc's, the monsters. All elves, they only speak elven and only eat elven food and sing elven songs and poop rainbow skittles.
and to everyone else she would look like a goblin with a "1gp if you kick my ass" sign on her back.
And all the npc's would say things like "We only allow elves to do this and that, and goblins aren't welcome here (while other goblins actually are, just not her)"

But seriously, after the first time she would have had a talking to, after the second time she would be invited to leave the group. I'm in it for the fun, and some griefing can be fun, but if you kill someone's character, whom the player has often spent many many hours setting up and playing because you are an *******, you deserve an asskicking. Its like jumping on someone's sandcastle they have spent 2 days making. If you aren't mature enough to not jump on it. Bugger off and don't come back.

See I have run a lot of different groups over the last 20 years. Mostly Palladium stuff but also some West End Star Wars and a few other games and I can't even imagine a situation like this.

I have a friend that I have run Heroes Unlimited, Phase World, and WE SW and he was always a pain in the ass because he always had weird things he wanted that would not fit the game. Like one time he wanted to play a character that thought he was in a video game. Great friend, horrible to GM for but never anything like this. I can't even imagine.

[Aaryq]

It's not a one person show. I'm generally very patient. But a player who makes it all about themselves and intentionally derails the game would not last long at my table. She would get a few warnings but if it persisted I would not invite them back. Acting like that shows that they have absolutely no respect for anyone else at that table.

[kiralon]

I have played with players like this, they tend to be very self centred in life, and in my case they were all munchkins too, and had to be ore powerful than everyone else.

Don't know what a munchkin is check here http://dragon.facetieux.free.fr/jdr/Munchkin.htm

[Borast]

The only two incidents I can personally think of are in D&D...

One was in the Labyrinth of Madness (everyone was playing multiple PCs due to the high rate of injury and character death/disability)... One player was making inappropriate approaches to a female Drow PC...whom happened to be a mage. (The actions were entirely inline with the character's personality, and the anti-drow sentiments for his High Elf character.) She disintegrated the male PC and then, for panache, cast whirlwind on the non-existing remains... Everyone at the table was shocked...and then the laughter started. Even the gent playing the noxious character agreed the reaction was - while excessive - appropriate. The "wife" of the dead character was not pleased (played by the same gent), but agreed he deserved chastisement, and agreed to not take action against her...yet.

One was on the road. I was playing a Paladin, and we encountered a trapped building, leading to a tunnel under the road. We followed the tunnel, and found a nest of thri-kreen. One of the other PCs drew his weapons and charged in to attack the bugs in the midst of their religious(?) ceremony. Given the racial alignment of the bugs, and that they were being peaceable...
My Paladin had initiative over everyone else in the party (along with them physically behind him), so he slammed the door closed and Enlarged the door...jamming it in place. When challenged, he simply stated that the other party member attacked a peaceable group in violation of all rules of civil interaction...and the laws of most lands (regardless of the fact they were insects). Even the player running the (now slaughtered) character in question agreed that what I did was inline with expectations for being Lawful Good, and a Paladin.

Ironically...the same player in each case.
Rob was fun!