Which WP applies?

[Yuritau]

Is there a definitive way to determine which WP applies to a given weapon?

The weapon bringing this question up is the I-11 Long Gun from SA2. I expected it to be WP Energy Rifle (it's an ion rifle, just a really big one!), but my GM said it would be WP Heavy MD.

My gunfighter will make good use of the gun either way, but it would be slightly better if it was WP Energy Rifle, heh.

[Orin J.]

energy weapons are in a funny position, since "heavy" is just the catchall for everything not designed to fit the general physical specs of a handgun or combat rifle and there's a lot of crazy crap in there. there should probably be a few more W.P.s added for them, but it is what it is.

your GM's on the money here though. the thing is huge, you can't use it like a normal energy rifle and there's no "W.P. energy sniper rifle" category so into the heavy bracket it goes.

[Warshield73]

Is there a definitive way to determine which WP applies to a given weapon?

The weapon bringing this question up is the I-11 Long Gun from SA2. I expected it to be WP Energy Rifle (it's an ion rifle, just a really big one!), but my GM said it would be WP Heavy MD.

My gunfighter will make good use of the gun either way, but it would be slightly better if it was WP Energy Rifle, heh.

So if you read the description this Rifle is intended to be an e-rifle, but wow is it heavy. One of my players used an NE-75H "Shoulder Cannon from DB 3: Phase World SB which at 30 lbs. was very similar to the I-11. Due to it's weight the player and I had an arrangement. When he was carrying it around firing bursts in regular combat it used the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but when he used it, from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill.

This is largely how I use the WP's for guns like this and maybe you could get your GM to agree to this as well.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Is there a definitive way to determine which WP applies to a given weapon?

The weapon bringing this question up is the I-11 Long Gun from SA2. I expected it to be WP Energy Rifle (it's an ion rifle, just a really big one!), but my GM said it would be WP Heavy MD.

My gunfighter will make good use of the gun either way, but it would be slightly better if it was WP Energy Rifle, heh.

So if you read the description this Rifle is intended to be an e-rifle, but wow is it heavy. One of my players used an NE-75H "Shoulder Cannon from DB 3: Phase World SB which at 30 lbs. was very similar to the I-11. Due to it's weight the player and I had an arrangement. When he was carrying it around firing bursts in regular combat

By what insane voodoo magic was his NE-75H shooting bursts? Its unequivocally a single shot weapon. (ROF: Each shot counts as one melee attack). You cant even use the "Standard used to mean bursts" argument, as it never said that.

it used the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but when he used it, from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill.

Not sure why Sniper wouldn't work with it anyway, since it isn't limited to any specific WP, just "weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/blast". You've always been able to use Sniper with heavy weapons, RAW.

As for the appropriate WP (for the I-11), this would be a lot easier if Palladium had simply included that information in the weapon stat blocking. However, as a "rule of thumb", remember that Palladium's rules are humanocentric.

If it would be "heavy" for a regular human to carry around, then it should probably fall under W.P. Heavy or Heavy MD Weapons (respectively). While yes, a giant (or just a race a decent bit larger than humans, like a near-max-height Wolfen) might wield a given weapon easily and more like a traditional rifle, the norm (and the rules) is based on "average human".

Thus, i'd say your GM is absolutely correct to label the I-11 as belonging to W.P. Heavy MD Weapons.

While a borg, or Wolfen, or Juicer could carry it around with ease, its not what is normally considered a "rifle".

[Yuritau]

Wouldn't all the NE plasma guns be WP Heavy MD? Or is "plasma cartridge" distinct from "plasma ejector"?

Either way, the verdict appears to be Heavy MD for the I-11, so no sharpshooting shenanigans with a 30 lb rifle, hehe.

[guardiandashi]

Wouldn't all the NE plasma guns be WP Heavy MD? Or is "plasma cartridge" distinct from "plasma ejector"?

Either way, the verdict appears to be Heavy MD for the I-11, so no sharpshooting shenanigans with a 30 lb rifle, hehe.

you could make that argument but no.

the specific nature of what is fired does not determine the wp used.

honestly I could accept an argument that shemarian railguns could be energy rifle, and not heavy mdc even though I believe they are heavy energy.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is there a definitive way to determine which WP applies to a given weapon?

The weapon bringing this question up is the I-11 Long Gun from SA2. I expected it to be WP Energy Rifle (it's an ion rifle, just a really big one!), but my GM said it would be WP Heavy MD.

My gunfighter will make good use of the gun either way, but it would be slightly better if it was WP Energy Rifle, heh.

I would put what normally be a crew severed weapon or a vehicle weapon would be a 'Heavy".

Or maybe just physically large weapons....like that anti-armor laser in one of the SA books that only does 1d4x10 MD'ish or 1d6x10 MD'ish but that is normal MD for CS e-rifles.

[Warshield73]

Is there a definitive way to determine which WP applies to a given weapon?

The weapon bringing this question up is the I-11 Long Gun from SA2. I expected it to be WP Energy Rifle (it's an ion rifle, just a really big one!), but my GM said it would be WP Heavy MD.

My gunfighter will make good use of the gun either way, but it would be slightly better if it was WP Energy Rifle, heh.

So if you read the description this Rifle is intended to be an e-rifle, but wow is it heavy. One of my players used an NE-75H "Shoulder Cannon from DB 3: Phase World SB which at 30 lbs. was very similar to the I-11. Due to it's weight the player and I had an arrangement. When he was carrying it around firing bursts in regular combat

By what insane voodoo magic was his NE-75H shooting bursts? Its unequivocally a single shot weapon. (ROF: Each shot counts as one melee attack). You cant even use the "Standard used to mean bursts" argument, as it never said that.

Wow, that is a great way to start a discussion.

I started to add the general terms of how I apply this to other weapons including weapons like the Armor Piercing Cannon in Robotech New Generation SB as well as other Rifts weapons, decided I didn't want to spend that much time on this, started to erase it and didn't erase the whole line. That is all.

it used the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but when he used it, from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill.

Not sure why Sniper wouldn't work with it anyway, since it isn't limited to any specific WP, just "weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/blast". You've always been able to use Sniper with heavy weapons, RAW.

Wow, that is some seriously bad quoting, you left off the words and the very beginning of the statement.

Sniper. This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship. Only weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping; no automatic burst firing. Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows, bolt-action rifles, and energy rifles capable of switching from bursts or pulse attacks to a single shot. Bonus: +2 to strike on a Called or Aimed Shot only.

The skill is clear. Energy Rifles OK, but no to WP Heavy MD or WP Energy Pistol for that matter. Now, as KS says constantly gaming is very personal so if you allow sniper to apply to other WPs then that's great but if we are discussing rules as written then no it does not apply.

As for the appropriate WP (for the I-11), this would be a lot easier if Palladium had simply included that information in the weapon stat blocking. However, as a "rule of thumb", remember that Palladium's rules are humanocentric.

If it would be "heavy" for a regular human to carry around, then it should probably fall under W.P. Heavy or Heavy MD Weapons (respectively). While yes, a giant (or just a race a decent bit larger than humans, like a near-max-height Wolfen) might wield a given weapon easily and more like a traditional rifle, the norm (and the rules) is based on "average human".

Thus, i'd say your GM is absolutely correct to label the I-11 as belonging to W.P. Heavy MD Weapons.

While a borg, or Wolfen, or Juicer could carry it around with ease, its not what is normally considered a "rifle".

As a general rule I would actually agree with this, but in this case PB did tell us what it is supposed to be.

This weapon is meant to be used as a sniper rifle or heavy hunting rifle, and is a favorite among assassins, sharpshooters, and the plains 'borg. Its main drawbacks are its length (almost six feet/1.8 m long) and weight, which makes it difficult to carry. The plains 'borgs, who rely on their cybernetic horses, have no such problem and love to tote these long rifles along.

Now as I said before I vary the WP for a weapon like this between Energy Rifle and W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but if you are going strictly by the book it would be energy rifle.

you could make that argument but no.

the specific nature of what is fired does not determine the wp used.

honestly I could accept an argument that shemarian railguns could be energy rifle, and not heavy mdc even though I believe they are heavy energy.

I have heard a few people make these arguments and if I was dealing with a character large and strong enough that I might allow it myself.

[Orin J.]

it used the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but when he used it, from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill.

Not sure why Sniper wouldn't work with it anyway, since it isn't limited to any specific WP, just "weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/blast". You've always been able to use Sniper with heavy weapons, RAW.

Wow, that is some seriously bad quoting, you left off the words and the very beginning of the statement.

Sniper. This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship. Only weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping; no automatic burst firing. Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows, bolt-action rifles, and energy rifles capable of switching from bursts or pulse attacks to a single shot. Bonus: +2 to strike on a Called or Aimed Shot only.

The skill is clear. Energy Rifles OK, but no to WP Heavy MD or WP Energy Pistol for that matter. Now, as KS says constantly gaming is very personal so if you allow sniper to apply to other WPs then that's great but if we are discussing rules as written then no it does not apply.

i'm inclined to let him have sniping in this case. it's TECHNICALLY a rifle, just a stupidly large one that can't be used correctly and it is firing a single shot. besides, the wording doesn't say it doesn't apply to other things, it just gives you an example of acceptable uses. i'd require him to brace the 6' long gun against something though.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

it used the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but when he used it, from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill.

Not sure why Sniper wouldn't work with it anyway, since it isn't limited to any specific WP, just "weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/blast". You've always been able to use Sniper with heavy weapons, RAW.

Wow, that is some seriously bad quoting, you left off the words and the very beginning of the statement.

That were 100% immaterial to your incorrect assertion that it COULDN'T employ the sniper skill - "and could even employ the sniper skill".

The only relevant parts were that you allowed him to use it as if it were W.P. Energy Rifle, and that is what somehow made it viable for use with Sniper.

Sniper: This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship. Only weapons that ca be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping, no automatic burst firing. Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows, bolt-action-rifles, and energy rifles capable of switching from bursts or pulse attacks to a single shot.

I've underlined the portions relevant to the discussion.

We are told that only weapons that can fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping.
We are then told that Acceptable weapons include, but does not say limited to, a short list of weapons.

Note that if we're to accept your belief of how the rule works, that real world sniper rifles would not be able to use the Sniper skill.

Because, if that list is comprehensive, only bolt-action rifles can be used with Sniper.

Let me introduce you to the M110 Sniper Rifle, the US Army's current sniper weapon system (which is being replaced soon... with another semi-auto weapon):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi ... per_System

Or the M25 that preceeded it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M25_Sniper_Weapon_System

In your interpretation, these guns wouldn't be usable with Sniper. Real, honest-to-goodness, actual sniper rifles that couldn't be used with Sniper. I can list up about 40 more if you want.

Its not like something breaks if you let single-shot projectile firing heavy MD weapons benefit from Sniper. A great many Heavy MD Weapons cant fire single shots/blasts and/or aren't handheld (they are vehicle mounted for instance). Most rail guns do not fire single shots (and even if they did, the damage is quite low - letting someone have a +2 to hit with a 1d4MD railgun round... who cares), most heavy lasers are burst firing or vehicle mounted exclusively (a single exception i can think of being perhaps the I-11, and maybe the Wilks Pulse Laser cannon, since it CAN fire single shots, but the damage - 5D6 is hardly problematic), leaving you ... plasma cannons and heavy particle beam weapons, both of which have pretty short range.

Big whoop.

The skill is clear. Energy Rifles OK, but no to WP Heavy MD or WP Energy Pistol for that matter. Now, as KS says constantly gaming is very personal so if you allow sniper to apply to other WPs then that's great but if we are discussing rules as written then no it does not apply.

Except that you're inventing words that aren't there, and yes, it does apply.

As for the appropriate WP (for the I-11), this would be a lot easier if Palladium had simply included that information in the weapon stat blocking. However, as a "rule of thumb", remember that Palladium's rules are humanocentric.

If it would be "heavy" for a regular human to carry around, then it should probably fall under W.P. Heavy or Heavy MD Weapons (respectively). While yes, a giant (or just a race a decent bit larger than humans, like a near-max-height Wolfen) might wield a given weapon easily and more like a traditional rifle, the norm (and the rules) is based on "average human".

Thus, i'd say your GM is absolutely correct to label the I-11 as belonging to W.P. Heavy MD Weapons.

While a borg, or Wolfen, or Juicer could carry it around with ease, its not what is normally considered a "rifle".

As a general rule I would actually agree with this, but in this case PB did tell us what it is supposed to be.

No, they tell us how it is USED. They are similar things, but they aren't the same.

This weapon is meant to be used as a sniper rifle or heavy hunting rifle, and is a favorite among assassins, sharpshooters, and the plains 'borg. Its main drawbacks are its length (almost six feet/1.8 m long) and weight, which makes it difficult to carry. The plains 'borgs, who rely on their cybernetic horses, have no such problem and love to tote these long rifles along.

Now as I said before I vary the WP for a weapon like this between Energy Rifle and W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but if you are going strictly by the book it would be energy rifle.

Then under your interpretation, the NE-75H is an Energy Rifle, as we are told that is an analogue of the .50 Cal Barrett Anti-Material Rifle (here erroneously called "Baretta") and is assigned to elite sniper units. Therefore, according to you, it MUST be an Energy Rifle.

A weapon may be USED as something, even if it ISNT that thing. You can USE a Barrett as a sniper rifle - but it isn't. You can USE the I-11 as a sniper weapon, but that doesn't make it an energy rifle. It makes it a heavy energy weapon you can snipe with.

[ryokoryu]

from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill..

What bonuses, Energy riffle and Energy pistol don't give bonuses.
W.P. Energy Pistol: Includes lasers, ion blasters, and all types of
energy firing small arms. Mega-Damage varies. (See page 360.)
W.P. Energy Rifle: Includes all long-range energy firing rifles.
Mega-Damage varies. (See page 360.)
copied directly from the book RUE page 329

[Prysus]

What bonuses, Energy riffle and Energy pistol don't give bonuses.
W.P. Energy Pistol: Includes lasers, ion blasters, and all types of
energy firing small arms. Mega-Damage varies. (See page 360.)
W.P. Energy Rifle: Includes all long-range energy firing rifles.
Mega-Damage varies. (See page 360.)
copied directly from the book RUE page 329

... ... ...


Greetings and Salutations. You quoted the section, but you didn't actually "see page 360" as instructed, did you? The bonuses are listed on page 360. Farewell and safe journeys.

[guardiandashi]

it used the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but when he used it, from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill.

Not sure why Sniper wouldn't work with it anyway, since it isn't limited to any specific WP, just "weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/blast". You've always been able to use Sniper with heavy weapons, RAW.

Wow, that is some seriously bad quoting, you left off the words and the very beginning of the statement.

That were 100% immaterial to your incorrect assertion that it COULDN'T employ the sniper skill - "and could even employ the sniper skill".

The only relevant parts were that you allowed him to use it as if it were W.P. Energy Rifle, and that is what somehow made it viable for use with Sniper.

Sniper: This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship. Only weapons that ca be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping, no automatic burst firing. Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows, bolt-action-rifles, and energy rifles capable of switching from bursts or pulse attacks to a single shot.

I've underlined the portions relevant to the discussion.

We are told that only weapons that can fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping.
We are then told that Acceptable weapons include, but does not say limited to, a short list of weapons.

Note that if we're to accept your belief of how the rule works, that real world sniper rifles would not be able to use the Sniper skill.

Because, if that list is comprehensive, only bolt-action rifles can be used with Sniper.

Let me introduce you to the M110 Sniper Rifle, the US Army's current sniper weapon system (which is being replaced soon... with another semi-auto weapon):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi ... per_System

Or the M25 that preceeded it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M25_Sniper_Weapon_System

In your interpretation, these guns wouldn't be usable with Sniper. Real, honest-to-goodness, actual sniper rifles that couldn't be used with Sniper. I can list up about 40 more if you want.

Its not like something breaks if you let single-shot projectile firing heavy MD weapons benefit from Sniper. A great many Heavy MD Weapons cant fire single shots/blasts and/or aren't handheld (they are vehicle mounted for instance). Most rail guns do not fire single shots (and even if they did, the damage is quite low - letting someone have a +2 to hit with a 1d4MD railgun round... who cares), most heavy lasers are burst firing or vehicle mounted exclusively (a single exception i can think of being perhaps the I-11, and maybe the Wilks Pulse Laser cannon, since it CAN fire single shots, but the damage - 5D6 is hardly problematic), leaving you ... plasma cannons and heavy particle beam weapons, both of which have pretty short range.

Big whoop.

The skill is clear. Energy Rifles OK, but no to WP Heavy MD or WP Energy Pistol for that matter. Now, as KS says constantly gaming is very personal so if you allow sniper to apply to other WPs then that's great but if we are discussing rules as written then no it does not apply.

Except that you're inventing words that aren't there, and yes, it does apply.

As for the appropriate WP (for the I-11), this would be a lot easier if Palladium had simply included that information in the weapon stat blocking. However, as a "rule of thumb", remember that Palladium's rules are humanocentric.

If it would be "heavy" for a regular human to carry around, then it should probably fall under W.P. Heavy or Heavy MD Weapons (respectively). While yes, a giant (or just a race a decent bit larger than humans, like a near-max-height Wolfen) might wield a given weapon easily and more like a traditional rifle, the norm (and the rules) is based on "average human".

Thus, i'd say your GM is absolutely correct to label the I-11 as belonging to W.P. Heavy MD Weapons.

While a borg, or Wolfen, or Juicer could carry it around with ease, its not what is normally considered a "rifle".

As a general rule I would actually agree with this, but in this case PB did tell us what it is supposed to be.

No, they tell us how it is USED. They are similar things, but they aren't the same.

This weapon is meant to be used as a sniper rifle or heavy hunting rifle, and is a favorite among assassins, sharpshooters, and the plains 'borg. Its main drawbacks are its length (almost six feet/1.8 m long) and weight, which makes it difficult to carry. The plains 'borgs, who rely on their cybernetic horses, have no such problem and love to tote these long rifles along.

Now as I said before I vary the WP for a weapon like this between Energy Rifle and W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but if you are going strictly by the book it would be energy rifle.

Then under your interpretation, the NE-75H is an Energy Rifle, as we are told that is an analogue of the .50 Cal Barrett Anti-Material Rifle (here erroneously called "Baretta") and is assigned to elite sniper units. Therefore, according to you, it MUST be an Energy Rifle.

A weapon may be USED as something, even if it ISNT that thing. You can USE a Barrett as a sniper rifle - but it isn't. You can USE the I-11 as a sniper weapon, but that doesn't make it an energy rifle. It makes it a heavy energy weapon you can snipe with.

i'm sorry I have to laugh at this arguement because 3 of the most powerful railguns in the game can explicitly be used with the sniper skill. the RG-14, and the shemarrian 4000, and 6000 railguns
" Rate of fire each single shot counts as 1 melee attack/action cannot fire bursts.

Shemarrian 6000 railgun (pg 56 shemarrian nation) the most famous weapon to be used by (snip) "it fires a single flechette filled cartridge"

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

i'm sorry I have to laugh at this arguement

Not sure why you're laughing, as i said that railguns that can fire single shots CAN, indeed, be used with Sniper. You're AGREEING with me.

because 3 of the most powerful railguns in the game can explicitly be used with the sniper skill. the RG-14, and the shemarrian 4000, and 6000 railguns
" Rate of fire each single shot counts as 1 melee attack/action cannot fire bursts.

Shemarrian 6000 railgun (pg 56 shemarrian nation) the most famous weapon to be used by (snip) "it fires a single flechette filled cartridge"

Sure. Although no, the RG-14 cannot, as it is vehicle mounted (unless we're talking about the Baby Boom Gun? i dont remember if the 14 is the regular boom gun or the small one in Black Market), but the Baby Boom Gun from Black Market could be, as it can be detached and used independently (even has a bipod) and is also sold independent of the Shadow Boy armor expressly for other troops to use.

Similarly, there is no reason the Shemarian railguns couldn't be used with Sniper (they aren't vehicle mounted), or the very few Rail-guns that can fire single shots, as well (most cannot, and single-round damage is only listed for spray/wild shot info, but a few CAN fire individual shots).

Similarly, pistols can be used with Sniper if they can fire a single shot (in fact, Wilks even makes a Sniper Laser Pistol (which looks to be about the size of a bullpup or short-barreled carbine).

[Orin J.]

- pistols can be used with Sniper if they can fire a single shot (in fact, Wilks even makes a Sniper Laser Pistol (which looks to be about the size of a bullpup or short-barreled carbine).

can't really agree with you there. i mean if you want to assume it's implied okay, but the rules don't mention pistols at all. which is fine.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

- pistols can be used with Sniper if they can fire a single shot (in fact, Wilks even makes a Sniper Laser Pistol (which looks to be about the size of a bullpup or short-barreled carbine).

can't really agree with you there. i mean if you want to assume it's implied okay, but the rules don't mention pistols at all. which is fine.

There's nothing to disagree with. The option is binary.

Either:

It can be used with any weapon that fires a single blast/bullet/round (and the list of weapons in the skill is not comprehensive) that dont have other rules that override this (like a mini missile launcher, etc, which will use the missile rules).

OR

It can ONLY be used with the extremely limited list of weapons in the skill itself (the list IS comprehensive) which means it cant be used with actual, real sniper rifles, as semi-automatic rifles are not listed, only bolt-action (but CAN be used with semi-automatic energy weapons for some reason?).

I'd also note that Option B here means that a decent number of weapons we are specifically told are used by snipers/sniper teams wouldn't be usable with Sniper.

One of these options makes logical sense.

The other does not.

[Orin J.]

- pistols can be used with Sniper if they can fire a single shot (in fact, Wilks even makes a Sniper Laser Pistol (which looks to be about the size of a bullpup or short-barreled carbine).

can't really agree with you there. i mean if you want to assume it's implied okay, but the rules don't mention pistols at all. which is fine.

There's nothing to disagree with. The option is binary.

Either:

It can be used with any weapon that fires a single blast/bullet/round (and the list of weapons in the skill is not comprehensive) that dont have other rules that override this (like a mini missile launcher, etc, which will use the missile rules).

OR

It can ONLY be used with the extremely limited list of weapons in the skill itself (the list IS comprehensive) which means it cant be used with actual, real sniper rifles, as semi-automatic rifles are not listed, only bolt-action (but CAN be used with semi-automatic energy weapons for some reason?).

OR

the skill can be used with any weapon fitting a general description of being a single-shot personal weapon intended for firing at long range.

Sniper. This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship. Only weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping; no automatic burst firing. Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows, bolt-action rifles, and energy rifles capable of switching from bursts or pulse attacks to a single shot. Bonus: +2 to strike on a Called or Aimed Shot only.

as the example weapons listed here all fit the parameters of 1: designed as long-ranged, single shot weapons 2: designed to be used by a person without need for outside aid or external platform 3: designed to be aimed as two handed weapon for stability.

by this simple list we can discount pistols (designed to be used at short range) and limit the use of the I-11 Long Gun that OP was discussing to large cyborgs who wouldn't need assistance to aim the heavy 6-foot+ rifle easily. now if you want to attach a separate rig for using a pistol as a sniping weapon that might be possible, but you wouldn't be able to holster it like that. the best solution is more nuanced than thinking in binary. as is often the case.

[Prysus]

as the example weapons listed here all fit the parameters of 1: long-ranged, single shot weapons 2: designed to be used by a person without need for outside aid or external platform 3: aimed as two handed weapon for stability.

by this simple list we can discount pistols (designed to be used at short range)

Greetings and Salutations. So I wanted to address something regarding #1. Palladium Fantasy Second Edition main book describes long range as a bow with 300 ft or more range. Now they specify bow as they don't really have guns, and this is a different setting and not necessarily applicable to Rifts.

Now RUE mentions both a bow and arrow and crossbow as applicable to Sniper, and Archery lists the ranges for a short bow and light crossbow as acceptable tools the skill. So 300 ft still seems applicable, 340 ft at worst. Note: I'm skipping the Pistol Crossbow since it wouldn't meet the PF2 conditions, even if it might meet the criteria from RUE.

So if a pistol is "long-range" or not seems to be a question on its range, not the fact that it's a pistol.

2 and 3 I could quibble about, but that isn't in the books (for or against), so I won't waste the time. Hope the actual book numbers help. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Orin J.]

eeesh, guess i should give up on trying to make things brief. further clarification applied.

energy weapons might have ludicrous range, but pistols are generally still sighted for short range since they're intended to be a sidearm. like i said you can add a brace and scope for long-distance aiming but it's still gonna be a bit big to just holster. also the fantasy and Rifts version of the sniping skill seem to be different so maybe using them to compare each other isn't the best policy there. that one doesn't even allow crossbows, just bows.

really fantasy's entire deal with range is a little sketchy, and the concept of "long range" doesn't really hold up when you get to firearms.....this is gonna be one of those winding arguments, isn't it.....

[Prysus]

also the fantasy and Rifts version of the sniping skill seem to be different so maybe using them to compare each other isn't the best policy there. that one doesn't even allow crossbows, just bows.

Greetings and Salutations. I agree the RUE and PF versions have some differences. I brought it up as it provided a quantifiable range for the skill's use, and was an official Palladium product. I also included some RUE weapon ranges that are included in the RUE Sniper skill, which you ignored. So if you'd like to truly separate the two, I'll stick just to Rifts ...

The Pistol Crossbow is a crossbow with 120 ft, per RUE page 326. Sniper includes crossbows, per RUE page 309. So per RUE, a weapon with only a 120 ft range is acceptable for the Sniper skill.

I should also note that Long-Range, per RUE page 346, "Long-Range Attack or Ranged Attack" are listed the same, and includes things like magic (which can have even shorter ranges than the Pistol Crossbow I listed above).

Better?

really fantasy's entire deal with range is a little sketchy, and the concept of "long range" doesn't really hold up when you get to firearms.....this is gonna be one of those winding arguments, isn't it.....

Not really. RUE clearly allows bows and crossbows to work with the Sniper skill. Also, RUE also defines "long range" to range attacks in general. Trying to state that the Sniper skill can only apply if using long range compared to firearms of your choosing is a house rule, and nothing more. That is, of course, unless you can provide actual book and page numbers to support your claims. Farewell and safe journeys.

[dreicunan]

Colonel_Tetsuya has the right of it. The entry says that this includes certain weapons. It doesn't say "only includes," and the presence of an actual definition for weapons covered is the final piece that shows us that the list is not exhaustive. That definition wouldn't be needed if the list was exhaustive. If someone says that the works of Tolkien "include the Hobbit and the Silmarillion," that doesn't mean that they are disputing the authorship of The Lord of the Rings!

Any weapon that can be made to fire a single round or blast can qualify for Sniper.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...Now RUE mentions both a bow and arrow and crossbow as applicable to Sniper, ...snip

*has OCD hat on*

Wouldn't this suppose to be that the sniper skill is applicable to both bows and crossbows.

No need to Respond

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

eeesh, guess i should give up on trying to make things brief. further clarification applied.

energy weapons might have ludicrous range, but pistols are generally still sighted for short range since they're intended to be a sidearm.

I assure you, there are pistols, even modern day pistols, that are intended for long range use.

I can link a video or three if you like, but in particular, the French equivalent of SWAT carried as their standard sidearm a sniper pistol until very recently, and they still use it, its just not their standard sidearm anymore.

edited to add:

Also, the most common range for snipers to operate in the real world is sub 500ft. Most snipers (especially ones who actually operate and see action on a regular basis) are police snipers. (Somewhat ironically, police snipers also regularly out-shoot all but the VERY best military snipers (Marine Scout Snipers are the only US military unit to beat the Dallas PD snipers the last time the contest was held, for US forces).

Usually they operate at 50-100 yards. Or less. (Which is actually why the French SWAT used the sniper pistol for so long. Accurate shooting without needing to lug around a giant rifle).

[Blue_Lion]

Is there a definitive way to determine which WP applies to a given weapon?

The weapon bringing this question up is the I-11 Long Gun from SA2. I expected it to be WP Energy Rifle (it's an ion rifle, just a really big one!), but my GM said it would be WP Heavy MD.

My gunfighter will make good use of the gun either way, but it would be slightly better if it was WP Energy Rifle, heh.

Short answer it is what ever your groups GM says it is.
PB does not normally give definitive answers to such questions.

[Blue_Lion]

Is there a definitive way to determine which WP applies to a given weapon?

The weapon bringing this question up is the I-11 Long Gun from SA2. I expected it to be WP Energy Rifle (it's an ion rifle, just a really big one!), but my GM said it would be WP Heavy MD.

My gunfighter will make good use of the gun either way, but it would be slightly better if it was WP Energy Rifle, heh.

So if you read the description this Rifle is intended to be an e-rifle, but wow is it heavy. One of my players used an NE-75H "Shoulder Cannon from DB 3: Phase World SB which at 30 lbs. was very similar to the I-11. Due to it's weight the player and I had an arrangement. When he was carrying it around firing bursts in regular combat

By what insane voodoo magic was his NE-75H shooting bursts? Its unequivocally a single shot weapon. (ROF: Each shot counts as one melee attack). You cant even use the "Standard used to mean bursts" argument, as it never said that.

Wow, that is a great way to start a discussion.

I started to add the general terms of how I apply this to other weapons including weapons like the Armor Piercing Cannon in Robotech New Generation SB as well as other Rifts weapons, decided I didn't want to spend that much time on this, started to erase it and didn't erase the whole line. That is all.

it used the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but when he used it, from a perch with tactical bipod or other such device it used Energy Rifle (which for him had way better bonuses) and could even employ the sniper skill.

Not sure why Sniper wouldn't work with it anyway, since it isn't limited to any specific WP, just "weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/blast". You've always been able to use Sniper with heavy weapons, RAW.

Wow, that is some seriously bad quoting, you left off the words and the very beginning of the statement.

Sniper. This skill represents special training in long-range shooting and marksmanship. Only weapons that can be made to fire a single bullet/round or blast can be used for sniping; no automatic burst firing. Acceptable weapons include bow and arrows, crossbows, bolt-action rifles, and energy rifles capable of switching from bursts or pulse attacks to a single shot. Bonus: +2 to strike on a Called or Aimed Shot only.

The skill is clear. Energy Rifles OK, but no to WP Heavy MD or WP Energy Pistol for that matter. Now, as KS says constantly gaming is very personal so if you allow sniper to apply to other WPs then that's great but if we are discussing rules as written then no it does not apply.

As for the appropriate WP (for the I-11), this would be a lot easier if Palladium had simply included that information in the weapon stat blocking. However, as a "rule of thumb", remember that Palladium's rules are humanocentric.

If it would be "heavy" for a regular human to carry around, then it should probably fall under W.P. Heavy or Heavy MD Weapons (respectively). While yes, a giant (or just a race a decent bit larger than humans, like a near-max-height Wolfen) might wield a given weapon easily and more like a traditional rifle, the norm (and the rules) is based on "average human".

Thus, i'd say your GM is absolutely correct to label the I-11 as belonging to W.P. Heavy MD Weapons.

While a borg, or Wolfen, or Juicer could carry it around with ease, its not what is normally considered a "rifle".

As a general rule I would actually agree with this, but in this case PB did tell us what it is supposed to be.

This weapon is meant to be used as a sniper rifle or heavy hunting rifle, and is a favorite among assassins, sharpshooters, and the plains 'borg. Its main drawbacks are its length (almost six feet/1.8 m long) and weight, which makes it difficult to carry. The plains 'borgs, who rely on their cybernetic horses, have no such problem and love to tote these long rifles along.

Now as I said before I vary the WP for a weapon like this between Energy Rifle and W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons but if you are going strictly by the book it would be energy rifle.

you could make that argument but no.

the specific nature of what is fired does not determine the wp used.

honestly I could accept an argument that shemarian railguns could be energy rifle, and not heavy mdc even though I believe they are heavy energy.

I have heard a few people make these arguments and if I was dealing with a character large and strong enough that I might allow it myself.

The .50 sniper rifle is classified as a heavy weapon even though it is a sniper rifle. (The US classifies it as a anti vincible sniper weapon not intended to be used.)
Heavy rifles can be heavy weapons instead of rifle by WP because it has the word heavy in it.
So the book does not make it a energy rifle skill. As a heavy rifle could be a heavy weapon.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As a note, the US .50 is an "Anti-material" Rifle. the M107 Anti-Material Rifle. Sometimes called the SASR (Special Application Sniper Rifle) Not "Anti-vehicle". (Which is what I'm assuming you went for and didn't mean vincible)

They -are- used to shoot out engine blocks, but 'material' has a lot more nuance. There are certain rules that prohibit the usage of .50s in some cases against living targets (Gets into the legalese of war and stuff far beyond the common scope of Rps for the most part)

But as a designated "Anti-material" rifle you can use it... say to shoot out an engine block. Or deny the enemy assets by destroying enemy equipment and material.

Uniforms..... are material...
Helmets are material.
Sunglasses are material.
Dog tags are material.
Boots are material.

In situations where such rules of engagement prohibit the usage of such weapons against people.... the 'anti-material' rifle can be used on 'material', and if ever called out on it.. well. The 'Person" that got a hole the size of a dinner plate out of their back wasn't the target.

The uniform he was wearing was...

the -stated- purpose is light vehicle and bunker application. Shooting at APCs, or light fortification by shooting 'through' said fortification, but yeah. In application it's a lot easier to hit a tank or something with an RPG, or for US Forces to call in close air support and use the .50 to reach out and touch someone a half a mile away.

Not that this is fully germane to the conversation, but a lil something to add in.

[Warshield73]

In situations where such rules of engagement prohibit the usage of such weapons against people.... the 'anti-material' rifle can be used on 'material', and if ever called out on it.. well. The 'Person" that got a hole the size of a dinner plate out of their back wasn't the target.

The uniform he was wearing was...

I met a JTF2 sniper once who made a similar joke except he said the guys vest was the target.

[guardiandashi]

In situations where such rules of engagement prohibit the usage of such weapons against people.... the 'anti-material' rifle can be used on 'material', and if ever called out on it.. well. The 'Person" that got a hole the size of a dinner plate out of their back wasn't the target.

The uniform he was wearing was...

I met a JTF2 sniper once who made a similar joke except he said the guys vest was the target.

one I heard was they were shooting at the LBE and the person got in the way... LBE = Load Bearing Equipment basically their equipment to carry their supplies, like clips, weapons etc.

[Yuritau]

So, same question, new scenario, heh.

Looking at the JA-12 Laser Rifle, and specifically the attached grenade launcher. BOTH WP Heavy Military Weapons AND WP Heavy MD list grenade launchers as weapons they apply to. Assuming you can't apply both WP's to a single weapon, which one is used for this particular grenade launcher?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

So, same question, new scenario, heh.

Looking at the JA-12 Laser Rifle, and specifically the attached grenade launcher. BOTH WP Heavy Military Weapons AND WP Heavy MD list grenade launchers as weapons they apply to. Assuming you can't apply both WP's to a single weapon, which one is used for this particular grenade launcher?

Both. Apply the one you have, or the one with the better bonuses.

There are many weapons that have multiple W.P.s assosciated with them.

[Orin J.]

So, same question, new scenario, heh.

Looking at the JA-12 Laser Rifle, and specifically the attached grenade launcher. BOTH WP Heavy Military Weapons AND WP Heavy MD list grenade launchers as weapons they apply to. Assuming you can't apply both WP's to a single weapon, which one is used for this particular grenade launcher?

Both. Apply the one you have, or the one with the better bonuses.

There are many weapons that have multiple W.P.s assosciated with them.

shouldn't that be "apply the one relevant to the type of round currently fired"? WP energy rifles wouldn't be expected to give bonuses to the grenade launcher after all.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

So, same question, new scenario, heh.

Looking at the JA-12 Laser Rifle, and specifically the attached grenade launcher. BOTH WP Heavy Military Weapons AND WP Heavy MD list grenade launchers as weapons they apply to. Assuming you can't apply both WP's to a single weapon, which one is used for this particular grenade launcher?

Both. Apply the one you have, or the one with the better bonuses.

There are many weapons that have multiple W.P.s assosciated with them.

shouldn't that be "apply the one relevant to the type of round currently fired"? WP energy rifles wouldn't be expected to give bonuses to the grenade launcher after all.

W.P. Energy Rifle wouldn't apply to a grenade launcher no matter what.

Read his actual question: he's talking about WP Heavy and WP Heavy MD. There is no mention of WP Energy Rifle. At all.

BOTH of those WPs can be used with a grenade launcher. This is not the first or only time that some weapons have multiple applicable W.P.s. (Blunt & Some specific weapons that are blunt, some of the polearms have separate skills, etc)

If you have both, just use the one for which the better bonuses apply, IMO. Im not sure there's an official ruling on it. I think the argument "can you apply multiple W.P.s has gone around and around a few times here without a real resolution or official answer, so im not going to weigh in on that topic other than what i address below.

Now, personally, i'd do (am doing, in my re-write):

W.P. Heavy MD Weaponry: will NOT apply to Missile Launchers, Grenade launchers, or other ordinance weapons. It would apply to Railguns, Railcannons, Plasma Ejectors, Heavy Particle Beams, and other energy weapons that are used mounted to a a vehicle or defensive position. (Like the Wilk's Laser Cannon, etc). If it shoots and is heavier than a rifle, this is your W.P.

W.P. Heavy Weapons: (or whatever it is called now) will NOT apply to Missile Launchers, Grenade launchers, or other ordinance weapons. It would apply mostly to Machineguns, Flamethrowers, and other weapons that are usually mounted to vehicles or defensive positions. If it shoots (SDC shots) and is heavier than a rifle, this is your W.P. (If its non-ironically named "Cannon" in some way, bet it belongs here).

(New) W.P. Ordinance: Applies to missile launchers, grenade launchers, mortars, etc. Anything that shoots what could be classified as "ordinance". Doesn't differentiate between MD and SDC - because thats simply a matter of what warhead the ordinance has. If it shoots things that go boom/have a warhead, this is your W.P.

Combining W.P.s: If you have two W.P.s that apply to the same weapon, take the better of the bonuses (and you can mix and match; if W.P. Blunt gives you +2 to strike and +3 to damage, but W.P. Staff gives you +4 to strike, and +2 to damage, your base bonuses woul dbe +4 to strike and +3 to damage), and then add 1 for each applicable additional W.P.

Since most weapons have at most 3 W.P.s, you're looking at a possible extra +2 - for spending two skills on W.P.s... so i dont think thats a huge issue.

[Orin J.]

In my copy of rifts it's "WP heavy" and "WP heavy energy" which takes the guesswork out of it. i think this is one of those times when the rewrote a rule without consulting anyone about why it was written that way.

[Yuritau]

In my copy of rifts it's "WP heavy" and "WP heavy energy" which takes the guesswork out of it. i think this is one of those times when the rewrote a rule without consulting anyone about why it was written that way.

Yeah, the copy of the RUE I have access to has them as "WP Heavy Military Weapons" and "WP Heavy Mega Damage Weapons (AKA Heavy Energy Weapons)", but they BOTH include grenade launchers and that's the ONLY point of overlap, heh.

In building this gunfighter, and not having played rifts in more than 20 years, I'm finding a LOT of those cases where the rules never seemed to have consulted each other, lol.

[Mack]

In my copy of rifts it's "WP heavy" and "WP heavy energy" which takes the guesswork out of it. i think this is one of those times when the rewrote a rule without consulting anyone about why it was written that way.

Yeah, the copy of the RUE I have access to has them as "WP Heavy Military Weapons" and "WP Heavy Mega Damage Weapons (AKA Heavy Energy Weapons)", but they BOTH include grenade launchers and that's the ONLY point of overlap, heh.

In building this gunfighter, and not having played rifts in more than 20 years, I'm finding a LOT of those cases where the rules never seemed to have consulted each other, lol.

Keep in mind that the author (Kevin Siembieda) tends to write guidelines rather than rules. His style is to write a loose framework and let the GM/players tailor the rest to their liking. However, that can be frustrating for folks who are looking for a more definitive ruleset.

Your mileage may vary.