The coalition as a military is a sad joke. Why?

[Orin J.]

ALL of them simply forgot?

No.

"CS High Command has left that decision to the Generals on site".

It's not talking about ALL the generals, but rather just the on-site ones. IE the ones knee-deep in the dead seeing their comrades animated as zombies, probably not getting a decent night's sleep in weeks, etc.

Leaving decisions to on-site generals can help because they could have better experience/perspective but there are clearly risks to it too, as seems to be the case here.

there is no way they left that matter to generals on site. the CS is the most micromanaging military force in any sci-fi/fantasy setting, the proseks probably had hands on communication with the command station for the offensive the whole time.

[Shark_Force]

solstice was no big deal the previous several times. why would they be in a state of total panic over it then?

and again, magic isn't actually any stronger, it's just that PPE is more plentiful, and you can face that kind of attack on any day if tolkeen just spends a few days dumping PPE into scrolls and talismans and PPE batteries without using it all up instantly.

you are going to face the exact same spells at the exact same strength as you would on any other day. it's just going to last an extra minute or two before the enemy needs to spend the rest of their PPE on getting out of dodge.

[Hotrod]

I've never really given the Siege on Tolkeen books a cover-to-cover readthrough. My impression is that the general plot of it went something like this:

1. The C.S. attacks with overwhelming force, makes some gains, and some dirtbag C.S. officer decides that war crimes are fun. Little of consequence is happening in the C.S. vs Free Quebec conflict other than a minor naval action; it's basically a cold war.
2. The Sorcerer's Revenge. Tolkeen strikes back with the help of a bunch of demonic allies and dark powers. A whole field army under General Holmes retreats into the Xiticix Hivelands and is presumed lost. Free Quebec kind of pretends to fight with Tolkeen, then turns on the demonic forces in a sudden yet inevitable betrayal.
3. The C.S. and Tolkeen are reeling from their losses. A bunch of the Tolkeen fighters either ragequit over the evil tactics or figure that the war is won and move on. Emperor Prosek decides that Free Quebec isn't so bad after all and decides to focus on Tolkeen
4. The C.S. gets its act together and launches another attack. Simultaneously, the lost field army under Holmes, which had been sheltering behind its plot armor this whole time, attacks through the hivelands. Tolkeen loses.
5. In the aftermath, there's a big effort by both the C.S. and the Splugorth to capture Tolkeen's weapons and experts. There's also a giant refugee crisis.

In terms of the books, this is how I'd characterize them based on my partial readings/skimmings:
Book 1: Sets the stage
Book 2: Initial C.S. attack and war crimes
Book 3: Tolkeen Strikes Back
Book 4: Random Cyber-Knight Sourcebook that transformed them into anti-tech zen warriors
Book 5: Resets the stage
Book 6: The C.S. wins.
Aftermath: Cleaning up, refugees, and a worldwide update on everything

In terms of the competence or lack thereof of the Coalition and Tolkeen, I'm kind of ambivalent. At the adventuring group level, I don't think that the reasoning of generals is much of a factor; their focus is going to be on keeping each other alive, dealing with the situation in front of them, and trying to achieve their individual and group goals. Both the C.S. and Tolkeen engage in tactics and decisions that are wasteful and ill-advised, especially in hindsight, which I would regard as being quite plausible; armed conflict is rife with poor decisions and waste.

Personally, if I were in charge of a Siege revamp, I'd re-structure the books to make them a little more self-contained:
1. A book focused on the Coalition's side: equipment, weapons, tactics, and overall strategies
2. A book focused on Tolkeen's side: equipment, weapons, tactics, and overall strategy
3. A campaign book: identifies key turning points in the conflict and opens the door for players to shape how the conflict plays out. Maybe the C.S. victory is inevitable, but the party's choices, successes, and failures could drive how complete and costly that victory is. I might even turn this into a strategy game.
4. Aftermath: I'd actually leave this one pretty much as is.

[Orin J.]

we already have the book about the coalition's equipment, weapons, and tactics. really if anything the problem is we had essentially nothing on tolkeen so the conflict was super abstracted.

that said i wouldn't have had the coalition win. the sorcerer's revenge is a bit on the wonky side but would both have made for a good climax and would be good development wise for most of the factions (the FoM would probably be left holding the bag trying to get the CS back in the fight through guerilla attacks and i doubt tolkeen's forces would put up with their victory turning into a "round two, FIGHT!" sorta deal).

[Prole]

The military of most dictatorships in the real world is a joke, the military of Nazi Germany was kinda a joke, and most of the people in the CS can't even read.

When you have a political system that doesn't allow for independent thought, it lacks initiative in the smallest units of command. In the US system, a team of nine men is lead by a highly educated, NCO with years of experience and training, and strong ability to think on his feet. In the Soviet system, a seven man unit is led by a man who simply repeats what the leader of 30 something men just said. Effectively, the US system is at least four times as reactive as the Soviet one.

On top of that, most dictatorships have their top military leaders in that position purely because of family reasons or "kissing up". Then you have how the dictator is afraid of a coup by capable and smart military leaders, so there is constant purges of any generals who are too smart. Effectively, dictators are idiots, and their military leaders are even bigger idiots.

[Axelmania]

"CS High Command has left that decision to the Generals on site".

there is no way they left that matter to generals on site.

But they did... that's what the book says.

the CS is the most micromanaging military force in any sci-fi/fantasy setting, the proseks probably had hands on communication with the command station for the offensive the whole time.

Being in constant communication doesn't mean you would be making every single decision for them, it just means you'd be getting updates on their choices with the option to intervene if you chose.

Karl and Joseph might be divvying up 12 hour shifts so at least one of them is able to do that while the other sleeps, but even then there's a limit to how much information you can process at once, how many decisions you can question.

again, magic isn't actually any stronger, it's just that PPE is more plentiful

Plentiful PPE probably mattered more in the pre-RUE days when SOT was written, now with 10PPE/round it makes me wonder how relevant a solstice is even supposed to be now.

But even pre-RUE you could stockpile PPE talismans and other batteries at previous high points, so there wasn't any need to use the PPE in real-time.

[Orin J.]

"CS High Command has left that decision to the Generals on site".

there is no way they left that matter to generals on site.

But they did... that's what the book says.

which book, because i can't imagine the context is "high command has trusted that the on-site leadership does not need oversight on the entire conflict's timetable"

[Axelmania]

"CS High Command has left that decision to the Generals on site".

there is no way they left that matter to generals on site.

But they did... that's what the book says.

which book, because i can't imagine the context is "high command has trusted that the on-site leadership does not need oversight on the entire conflict's timetable"

Coalition Wars: Siege on Tolkeen 6 (Final Siege) page 12, which Hystrix brought up on April 2nd. I was supplying several quotes from that section.

here's a screenshot with it highlighted

If it's up to them whether or no to wait for FQ reinforcements, it's probably also up to them how to prepare for (and keep track of) times when PPE is more plentiful to enemy.

[Orin J.]

"CS High Command has left that decision to the Generals on site".

there is no way they left that matter to generals on site.

But they did... that's what the book says.

which book, because i can't imagine the context is "high command has trusted that the on-site leadership does not need oversight on the entire conflict's timetable"

Coalition Wars: Siege on Tolkeen 6 (Final Siege) page 12, which Hystrix brought up on April 2nd. I was supplying several quotes from that section.

here's a screenshot with it highlighted

If it's up to them whether or no to wait for FQ reinforcements, it's probably also up to them how to prepare for (and keep track of) times when PPE is more plentiful to enemy.

by this, it's been confirmed they were either attacking then or in a couple weeks for reinforcements (dependent on the quebic situation, which is another case of the CS being amazingly optimististic) which means the timetable and assault was already otherwise laid down by forces above. you're misinterpreting "we want the assault now, but we'll let you decide if reinforcements are needed based on forces available" as "we will leave the decisions about the assault to you".

[Axelmania]

it's been confirmed they were either attacking then or in a couple weeks for reinforcements (dependent on the quebic situation, which is another case of the CS being amazingly optimististic) which means the timetable and assault was already otherwise laid down by forces above. you're misinterpreting "we want the assault now, but we'll let you decide if reinforcements are needed based on forces available" as "we will leave the decisions about the assault to you".

"we'll let you decide" is very much a form of leaving at least one decision about the assault to them

[Orin J.]

it's been confirmed they were either attacking then or in a couple weeks for reinforcements (dependent on the quebic situation, which is another case of the CS being amazingly optimististic) which means the timetable and assault was already otherwise laid down by forces above. you're misinterpreting "we want the assault now, but we'll let you decide if reinforcements are needed based on forces available" as "we will leave the decisions about the assault to you".

"we'll let you decide" is very much a form of leaving at least one decision about the assault to them

there's a difference between "we'll let you handle all the details" and "we'll let you handle this detail". you're cherrypicking the bit that you can use and ignoring the larger context here. and even that doesn't help your argument because them leaving the matter of reinforcements to the field officers shows they were both in contact with them and not reminding them of the solstiace, so the whole CS command was just cruising obliviously on the matter.

[slade the sniper]

What if:
The Coalition Military is actually competent. The High Command appears to be Karl, JPII, Holmes, and that really old guy that I can't be bothered to look up right now... (edit: General Cabot). A lot of the writeups say things like "excellent strategist", "great tactician" and "great military minds."
They all have the skills for running an effective and competent military. So, maybe, the point is to make these fights harder, to get more people to see the CS as a necessary protector.
If the CS just crushed all opposition, maybe people would think the DB's were weak or not that big a threat. If every war becomes "an existential war for survival of the human race" then the CS gets (or maintains) the political capital to continue to do whatever they want, all the time. Sure, it costs a lot of lives and tech, but human lives and tech seem to be pretty easy to replace for the CS. If it gets that bad, they could just clone up some humans. Finally, maybe there is a finite amount of human lives the CS can protect due to food, space, energy requirements and they have these long drawn out wars to "thin the herd" and find good breeding stock for the next generation?

-STS

[Axelmania]

there's a difference between "we'll let you handle all the details" and "we'll let you handle this detail".
you're cherrypicking the bit that you can use and ignoring the larger context here.

The detail in question is "when to attack".

Whether that's "do we wait for reinforcements" or "do we attack during the solstice" it's clear the timing of the assault is left up to them.

High Command probably has confidence enough that the field generals will remember the solstice and don't need to be reminded of something so obvious.

In which case perhaps that confidence is misplaced because they overestimated the stress of the battlefield.

them leaving the matter of reinforcements to the field officers shows they were both in contact with them and not reminding them of the solstiace,
so the whole CS command was just cruising obliviously on the matter.

Not reminding the field commanders doesn't mean that High Command is unaware of the solstice. It might just seem so obvious that it'd be like reminding them "winter is coming" and they want to focus on non-obvious reminders.

Sometimes something is so obvious you don't bother thinking about it because you're confident you'll remember but then you don't.

[Orin J.]

Not reminding the field commanders doesn't mean that High Command is unaware of the solstice. It might just seem so obvious that it'd be like reminding them "winter is coming" and they want to focus on non-obvious reminders.

Sometimes something is so obvious you don't bother thinking about it because you're confident you'll remember but then you don't.

reminding people of the obvious is like 50% of all military conduct. it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny if you're even vaguely aware of how an army handles itself.

[jaymz]

So basically we have people who want the CS to essentially be lead by bungling idiots and a few who realize they shouldn't be.

Good on you few. The rest of you should actually start learning how a military actually operates because your ignorance is blatantly showing itself. Mind you that same ignorance shows itself in the writing of the books too generally speaking.....

[Orin J.]

So basically we have people who want the CS to essentially be lead by bungling idiots and a few who realize they shouldn't be.

Good on you few. The rest of you should actually start learning how a military actually operates because your ignorance is blatantly showing itself. Mind you that same ignorance shows itself in the writing of the books too generally speaking.....

Man, it ain't my job to say so or nothin' but you could honestly learn to use some manners. attitude like that just undercuts the point you're trying to make.

[jaymz]

After dealing with some of the people in this thread as long as I have....they no longer deserve manners.

Pretty sure you've seen the responses that amount to "nuh-uh" in counter to your own arguments. At that point being polite is meaningless and gets you nowhere either.

As for how the books are written.....are you telling me I am wrong? Palladium has nearly 40 years of precedent showing the VAST majority of people who have written "military" material truly do not actually know what they are talking about and based on from what I have learned from former employees, it is amazing it wasn't worse.

[Axelmania]

reminding people of the obvious is like 50% of all military conduct.
it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny if you're even vaguely aware of how an army handles itself.

Different armies have different psychologies, and I think the CS very different than any army you've had experience with.

So basically we have people who want the CS to essentially be lead by bungling idiots and a few who realize they shouldn't be.

False dichotomy: amnesia is not idiocy.

The rest of you should actually start learning how a military actually operates because your ignorance is blatantly showing itself.

Please enlighten me on your first-hand experience with IRL armies who have dealt with the psychological trauma of battling limb-regenerating flying demons coming through rips in reality, being mind-controlled by magic, and seeing their friends animated as zombies.

Palladium has nearly 40 years of precedent showing the VAST majority of people who have written "military" material truly do not actually know what they are talking about and based on from what I have learned from former employees, it is amazing it wasn't worse.

Given that Rifts came out in 1990 (30 years ago) I take it this is some kind of shot at Robotech or Recon, since HU didn't do enough world-building for mass armies and PF dealt with medieval warfare only.

I guess I just don't see the value in generalizations: why not make further specific criticisms such as the solstice-amnesia problem?

[Mack]

I've read enough.

Topic Locked.