Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

[Rogerd]

A fairly common question, but what are your thoughts?

For me the PPE costs simply fail, as it is simpler to get a gun and shoot someone to death. I tend to apply a PE cost based upon level divided by two.

What do others do?

[jaymz]

In my games I leave the PPE costs alone. I just change how base PPE a mage can have and a they level up the more they get (not just a flat die roll), as well as allow them to "supercharge" up to triple their base for set amount of time.

Average 5th level LLW in my games will have a base of 280 and can supercharge up to 840 (the extra will be lost after a certain amount of time if unused). I find THIS better allows for the "mages shun tech in favour of their spell casting abilities" to make more sense.

Mind you I also change a number other things outside of PPE....suffice to say a player group in my games who come face to face with a high level LLW or Wizard? They've learned to run in most cases until they can figure out a way to defeat them.

[Library Ogre]

Basically, PPE is not an effective way to blast. If you want to shoot someone, you pull a gun.

Where magic comes into its own is the things that technology doesn't do as well. Sure, I could engage in a lengthy gun battle with you, or I could wrap you in a Carpet of Adhesion and neutralize you completely for several minutes. Or I could turn invisible and walk past. Or use Concealment to attach 14 pounds of explosive to a truck. Or seal you inside an Energy Field so it takes you a few minutes to batter your way out. Or use Charismatic Aura to make you walk me to the place I'm going.

[Rogerd]

Basically, PPE is not an effective way to blast. If you want to shoot someone, you pull a gun.

Which kind of misses the whole idea of a high magic setting, and that is a problem. I should be able to magically shoot my way if I am pinned down by multiple laser wielding weirdos.

[Library Ogre]

Basically, PPE is not an effective way to blast. If you want to shoot someone, you pull a gun.

Which kind of misses the whole idea of a high magic setting, and that is a problem. I should be able to magically shoot my way if I am pinned down by multiple laser wielding weirdos.

Why? Why should casting spells, necessarily, be better than using a laser rifle if the goal is damage per attack?

If you have a decent selection of spells, you can do so much more than blast. If all you want to do is shoot people, then work with a spell that allows that... for example, the 4th level Fire Warlock spell Mini-Fireballs.

Translate that to a standard invocation and you have a 7th-9th level invocation (20-50PPE), doing 3d6 per attack, for 1 melee per level, at 90' +10' per level (warlock spells converted to standard invocation are always a bit worse, despite being higher level). It makes you about on par with a pistol, at least.

[Rogerd]

Basically, PPE is not an effective way to blast. If you want to shoot someone, you pull a gun.

Which kind of misses the whole idea of a high magic setting, and that is a problem. I should be able to magically shoot my way if I am pinned down by multiple laser wielding weirdos.

Why? Why should casting spells, necessarily, be better than using a laser rifle if the goal is damage per attack?

If you have a decent selection of spells, you can do so much more than blast. If all you want to do is shoot people, then work with a spell that allows that... for example, the 4th level Fire Warlock spell Mini-Fireballs.

Translate that to a standard invocation and you have a 7th-9th level invocation (20-50PPE), doing 3d6 per attack, for 1 melee per level, at 90' +10' per level (warlock spells converted to standard invocation are always a bit worse, despite being higher level). It makes you about on par with a pistol, at least.

No one said it should be better, but keep pace with.
So let us take you gun example. Said assailant shooting a wizard can just reload after emptying fifteen rounds at the guy. What's the wizard gonna do.

Blasting by definition should be easy, just like battle magic in The Magicians, trying to do more complex stuff while bullets ricochet all over not so much.

The magic-user is going to run out of juice before the guys runs out of bullets. Now if it was a gritty more realistic world that would be fine, but in a cinematic world like HU, Rifts, Phase World that and puts magic at a disadvantage. And just like the justifications for it in one of the magic books, this makes zero sense.

You don't see the mages in Marvel, or other stuff like it run out of juice very often. So this logic makes zero sense in light of the genre, andworld as it is portrayed.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Magi do stuff other people can't, that is why a typical party is a fighter, their, healer and mage. covering the basic skill sets.

Yes, if you are just here to shoot things up with a blaster then be Han Solo and blast things.

Just remember, that geeky mage can have a gun too and go blasting things. But he can also have the love charm spell and get the girl your char has been aiming for. Or he has the Minor Curse spell with will make your char feeling too sick to go out looking. etc...etc...etc...

The one thing I do like about the PPE system is that it is not the Spells Per Day system.

[jaymz]

Problem with a mage having a gun? They go out of their way repeatedly in the books to insinuate and infer that mages shun tech in preference to their magic. To then say "well except guns" as, frankly, pretty stupid since that is the primary tech one would be discussing in these matters.

[Library Ogre]

A fairly common question, but what are your thoughts?

For me the PPE costs simply fail, as it is simpler to get a gun and shoot someone to death. I tend to apply a PE cost based upon level divided by two.

So, assuming you did not mean a PPE cost, do you simply say "15th level spells cost 7-8 PE"? How does that work?

Because your object seems to be "Wizards have resources they have to manage" or "Wizards don't have D&D Cantrips".

[Rogerd]

So, assuming you did not mean a PPE cost, do you simply say "15th level spells cost 7-8 PE"? How does that work?
Because your object seems to be "Wizards have resources they have to manage" or "Wizards don't have D&D Cantrips".

So yes, a 15th level spell will cost around 7 PE as it allows a magic-user to use magic more widely, more often. But casting spells that powerful will quickly tire them out, as it should.

Thing is wizards, do have DnD cantrips, they're first and second level spells, and for the most part the really simple stuff that I wouldn't even charge a PE cost for, unless the user starts becoming a bit spammy in using it.

Palladium magic whole schtick is wholly wizards have resources they have to manage, the form of PPE; whereas not many people are going to manage the number of shots in a cartridge, I mean let's face it what kind of GM is going to have the time, to actually count shots in everyone's different weapons - especially if they start switching during a fit.

Whereas a mage has to.

It is quite limiting, and unfair of the system to penalise magic-users in such a high magic environment in that way. Now if it was a Conan type world, that would be absolutely okay, magic is not supposed to flashy, or effective. And it is precisely why DnD only allows magic-users X number of spells per day, otherwise the other classes would be pointless, to the extent of being redundant - look at 3E where the other classes had to possess so many magical items in order to compensate for the wizard (or at least that is what I have read on various forums - never been big into DnD).

[Library Ogre]

So, assuming you did not mean a PPE cost, do you simply say "15th level spells cost 7-8 PE"? How does that work?
Because your object seems to be "Wizards have resources they have to manage" or "Wizards don't have D&D Cantrips".

So yes, a 15th level spell will cost around 7 PE as it allows a magic-user to use magic more widely, more often. But casting spells that powerful will quickly tire them out, as it should.

I'm not getting how your system makes things easier. It costs them 7 PE? How quickly does the PE return? How does this make it different than a PPE cost, which limits how much they can cast, and how quickly?

Can you explain your system better? Because the only difference I'm seeing between your system is
1) The numbers are smaller
2) It makes it easier for wizards to die, since their PE (and thus HP) drops when they cast spells.

[Rogerd]

I'm not getting how your system makes things easier. It costs them 7 PE? How quickly does the PE return? How does this make it different than a PPE cost, which limits how much they can cast, and how quickly?

Can you explain your system better? Because the only difference I'm seeing between your system is
1) The numbers are smaller
2) It makes it easier for wizards to die, since their PE (and thus HP) drops when they cast spells.

Why would it make it easier for a wizard to die?

[Curbludgeon]

PE stands for the stat Physical Endurance. I'm assuming Rogerd instead means PPE, and wasn't suggesting a PE-drain mechanic.

I can scarcely believe I'm saying this about a sci-fantasy kitchen sink setting, but to reduce spell costs to ~level/2 so strains suspension of disbelief, particularly with regard to high level effects, that it's a non-starter. Even before considering how this would interact with things like drawing PPE from ley lines, just looking at how much damage an average 1st level Shifter could get up to makes it clear how over the top it is.

If someone really needs casters to be able to plink away without ever picking up a non-TW gun, I'd consider either copying the ability to do so from the Mystic Knight, or just give them an HU EE power.

[Library Ogre]

I'm not getting how your system makes things easier. It costs them 7 PE? How quickly does the PE return? How does this make it different than a PPE cost, which limits how much they can cast, and how quickly?

Can you explain your system better? Because the only difference I'm seeing between your system is
1) The numbers are smaller
2) It makes it easier for wizards to die, since their PE (and thus HP) drops when they cast spells.

Why would it make it easier for a wizard to die?

HP = PE + level advancement bonuses, in most cases.

Reduce your PE, and you reduce your HP.

Reduce your HP, and you are more likely to die.

Now, it is possible to interpret HP as being set, without regards to changes in your PE, but that would also imply that improving your PE later would not improve your HP, which is not what I think most people do.

This system, insofar as you have explained it, also makes the prime determinant of magical ability your Physical Endurance. Someone with a massive PE but a small IQ or ME is a far better mage than someone who has an average PE, simply because PE determines what you can cast. The PPE system includes PE, but it also has a large random element (I mean, PE is 3d6, and your random is 2d4*10, you're almost definitely relying more on your random over your PE), and a per-level increase (which, in some cases, will be as much as the PE contribution).

So, there's a lot of questions I have about this system, to see if it can be improved.

[Shark_Force]

Basically, PPE is not an effective way to blast. If you want to shoot someone, you pull a gun.

Which kind of misses the whole idea of a high magic setting, and that is a problem. I should be able to magically shoot my way if I am pinned down by multiple laser wielding weirdos.

Why? Why should casting spells, necessarily, be better than using a laser rifle if the goal is damage per attack?

If you have a decent selection of spells, you can do so much more than blast. If all you want to do is shoot people, then work with a spell that allows that... for example, the 4th level Fire Warlock spell Mini-Fireballs.

Translate that to a standard invocation and you have a 7th-9th level invocation (20-50PPE), doing 3d6 per attack, for 1 melee per level, at 90' +10' per level (warlock spells converted to standard invocation are always a bit worse, despite being higher level). It makes you about on par with a pistol, at least.

or you could just use throwing stones, which is pretty much better and is already a standard invocation.

No one said it should be better, but keep pace with.
So let us take you gun example. Said assailant shooting a wizard can just reload after emptying fifteen rounds at the guy. What's the wizard gonna do.

Blasting by definition should be easy, just like battle magic in The Magicians, trying to do more complex stuff while bullets ricochet all over not so much.

The magic-user is going to run out of juice before the guys runs out of bullets. Now if it was a gritty more realistic world that would be fine, but in a cinematic world like HU, Rifts, Phase World that and puts magic at a disadvantage. And just like the justifications for it in one of the magic books, this makes zero sense.

You don't see the mages in Marvel, or other stuff like it run out of juice very often. So this logic makes zero sense in light of the genre, andworld as it is portrayed.

no. no, No, NO, for the love of all that is holy, NO. we do not need wizards to be the gods of direct damage AND the gods of every other thing under the sun. if magic was as good as or better than tech at everything, than what kind of moron would be using tech for anything in a world where magical energy is readily available to be used and technological energy needs to be created with expensive and complicated machines? the CS would not be a threat, they'd be the laughingstock of everyone in the world, because tech would be an obviously inferior tool for accomplishing anything.

magic being not terribly good at blasting is not a bug. it is a feature. it is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing, that the player who wants to be a merc soldier is not an utterly useless waste of space filling in a spot that would be better filled by someone who doesn't even know how to operate a toaster because magic does it better anyways.

this insane notion that wizards need to be the best at everything needs to go crawl into a hole and die a horrible death. it makes sense for a game only if either every player is a mage or no player is a mage (in which case presumably the mage is either a plot device that the players need to enable in some way, or a villain that the players must overcome, or something along those lines).

now, if you're just writing a novel, go ahead. make magic as all-encompassing as you want. I don't care if doctor strange is essentially able to do the same job as the incredible hulk but can also do the job of iron man, and black widow, and captain america, and ant man, and mantis, and groot, and every other avenger that has or ever will exist. the enjoyability of the movie or comic book or TV show or whatever he is in does not revolve around characters who are not doctor strange being able to contribute equally. but in a game, it matters that everyone can do something well to contribute.

so for the purpose of this game (and others), magic direct damage not only *can* suck, but it generally speaking *should* suck. when it comes time to assign roles, it is perfectly fine that the mage is not always the best choice for every single one of them.

(quite frankly, the mage is already best at *most* of the roles you might want to fill).

[jaymz]

" magic direct damage not only *can* suck, but it generally speaking *should* suck. "

I agree with the notion....but the setting tells us Mages would prefer to use magic over all tech....that would include guns meaning they would prefer to do magic spells damage not laser or otherwise. They can do damage on par but not really "better" in most cases but the problem is one or two combat encounters over all and the Mage because useless themselves as they no longer have PPE to DO anything. That is an inherent problem.

Mind you the setting also wants us to believe a high level mage IS in fact that powerful.....Dunscon is considered on par with adult dragons (as he has defeated at least one) who themselves are considered on par with at minimum minor gods. Let;s also keep in mind just how GOOD tech is in Rifts versus most other games with magic and tech. Magic just did not get the boost that tech got when Rifts was created. I mean even Firebolt with its 4d6md can barely fire beyond the length of the truck i drive every day....

[Rogerd]

no. no, No, NO, for the love of all that is holy, NO. we do not need wizards to be the gods of direct damage AND the gods of every other thing under the sun. if magic was as good as or better than tech at everything, than what kind of moron would be using tech for anything in a world where magical energy is readily available to be used and technological energy needs to be created with expensive and complicated machines? the CS would not be a threat, they'd be the laughingstock of everyone in the world, because tech would be an obviously inferior tool for accomplishing anything.

magic being not terribly good at blasting is not a bug. it is a feature. it is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing, that the player who wants to be a merc soldier is not an utterly useless waste of space filling in a spot that would be better filled by someone who doesn't even know how to operate a toaster because magic does it better anyways.

this insane notion that wizards need to be the best at everything needs to go crawl into a hole and die a horrible death. it makes sense for a game only if either every player is a mage or no player is a mage (in which case presumably the mage is either a plot device that the players need to enable in some way, or a villain that the players must overcome, or something along those lines).

now, if you're just writing a novel, go ahead. make magic as all-encompassing as you want. I don't care if doctor strange is essentially able to do the same job as the incredible hulk but can also do the job of iron man, and black widow, and captain america, and ant man, and mantis, and groot, and every other avenger that has or ever will exist. the enjoyability of the movie or comic book or TV show or whatever he is in does not revolve around characters who are not doctor strange being able to contribute equally. but in a game, it matters that everyone can do something well to contribute.

so for the purpose of this game (and others), magic direct damage not only *can* suck, but it generally speaking *should* suck. when it comes time to assign roles, it is perfectly fine that the mage is not always the best choice for every single one of them.

(quite frankly, the mage is already best at *most* of the roles you might want to fill).

You have made some assertions that are quite frankly totally untrue, coupled with a poor analogy of a franchise - MCU, which actually totally proves my point, resulting in your rather poor logic. Like I said the MCU portrays this really well, such that a magic-user can affect objects, and people at distance relatively easily; but so too can someone like the Hulk, and Iron Man. Such that they can all coexist relatively equally, each with unique traits and abilities. Each one has their niche, and their own abilities such that all make a good gestalt team.

Secondly, for all magic's power, it does not equal a nuke (or in Rifts a fusion cube), plus it is easier to travel larger distances using technology than it is with magic. Such that magic can do some really funky stuff, such as to create extra mass, or energy, but it is not all-powerful as you think I am claiming. Your ability to do such would be far better with a Rifts/ Phase world equivalent of a 3D printer. (And I know that the rule book for Phase World does not mention 3D printers, but that was before they were a thing, and quite frankly no high technology polity could exist without one).

HP = PE + level advancement bonuses, in most cases.

Reduce your PE, and you reduce your HP.

Reduce your HP, and you are more likely to die.

Now, it is possible to interpret HP as being set, without regards to changes in your PE, but that would also imply that improving your PE later would not improve your HP, which is not what I think most people do.

This system, insofar as you have explained it, also makes the prime determinant of magical ability your Physical Endurance. Someone with a massive PE but a small IQ or ME is a far better mage than someone who has an average PE, simply because PE determines what you can cast. The PPE system includes PE, but it also has a large random element (I mean, PE is 3d6, and your random is 2d4*10, you're almost definitely relying more on your random over your PE), and a per-level increase (which, in some cases, will be as much as the PE contribution).

So, there's a lot of questions I have about this system, to see if it can be improved.

Okay, right now I am with you.

I would not reduce HP because you have used PE to cast a spell. It is just a function of fatigue, kind of going to gym for a light workout, or depending upon the spell an intermediate one, or even killer workout. At the moment, and I need to clarify my thoughts on this, that perhaps some spells would be more mental (ME) in nature than others. I would certainly say that would be the case with a Spell of Legend - but then again, this never came to mind until now...ish because your questions have made me consider the system further.

A good thing.

So if say a spell had a large PE & ME component that could be split, 50/50.

[Library Ogre]

So, let's say I have a PE of 15.

How much spellcasting can I do?

Assuming we round fractions down, 1st level spells are free, right? But 2nd & 3rd level spells are 1, 4th & 5th are 2, 6th & 7th are 3, etc.

So, I could cast Call Lightning (6th level, 3 points) 5 times (5*3=15), and then what happens? I'm down to 0 PE... am I dead? Am I unconscious? When would I be able to recover some of the PE I expended on the spells? Would it matter if I was 6th level, not 1st level, myself?

Like I said, it seems like you switch from being "Spells are free" to "Spells have a different fixed cost, wherein the numbers are smaller."

[Shark_Force]

" magic direct damage not only *can* suck, but it generally speaking *should* suck. "

I agree with the notion....but the setting tells us Mages would prefer to use magic over all tech....that would include guns meaning they would prefer to do magic spells damage not laser or otherwise. They can do damage on par but not really "better" in most cases but the problem is one or two combat encounters over all and the Mage because useless themselves as they no longer have PPE to DO anything. That is an inherent problem.

Mind you the setting also wants us to believe a high level mage IS in fact that powerful.....Dunscon is considered on par with adult dragons (as he has defeated at least one) who themselves are considered on par with at minimum minor gods. Let;s also keep in mind just how GOOD tech is in Rifts versus most other games with magic and tech. Magic just did not get the boost that tech got when Rifts was created. I mean even Firebolt with its 4d6md can barely fire beyond the length of the truck i drive every day....

the fact that they prefer magic *where possible* does not force them to deal damage at all.

dealing damage is for chumps who can't giftwrap their enemies in a magic net or walk right past the ignorant rubes while invisible.

what do you think you're travelling around with those boorish oafs that are obsessed with their silly little zap guns for anyways?

[jaymz]

Here is the thing.....spells are not supposed to be easy to come by but I bet just about every player character has the spells you mention...which seems very odd that is the case.

Why bother with ANY other spells then? And it has never been "where possible" and "in general for everything" otherwise they wouldn't bother HAVING damaging spells at all or even teaching them at any magic academy or to any apprentice a mage might have. Why bother. "Eh just buy a gun, it's better" is LITERALLY not what Mages believe.

Now I am not saying to make their damaging spells over the top powerful, I ma saying they should be at least on par with average weapons. 4d6md on Firebolt is cool and works fine as is. Hell I don't even want 1600-2000 ft ranges of most laser rifles, but come on, at least give me more than the length of an 18 wheeler and let me do it enough that I don;t burn ALL my PPE in one or two encounters just trying to defend myself.

[Shark_Force]

Here is the thing.....spells are not supposed to be easy to come by but I bet just about every player character has the spells you mention...which seems very odd that is the case.

Why bother with ANY other spells then? And it has never been "where possible" and "in general for everything" otherwise they wouldn't bother HAVING damaging spells at all or even teaching them at any magic academy or to any apprentice a mage might have. Why bother. "Eh just buy a gun, it's better" is LITERALLY not what Mages believe.

Now I am not saying to make their damaging spells over the top powerful, I ma saying they should be at least on par with average weapons. 4d6md on Firebolt is cool and works fine as is. Hell I don't even want 1600-2000 ft ranges of most laser rifles, but come on, at least give me more than the length of an 18 wheeler and let me do it enough that I don;t burn ALL my PPE in one or two encounters just trying to defend myself.

no. they shouldn't.

it does not say they are rationally aware that spells are superior. it just says that they believe magic is better. not "objectively more damaging", not "provably equal in effectiveness and superior in renewability", not anything else that suggests that spells are always the equal or better to technology. just that they BELIEVE their spells are better. that does not have to be true for them to believe it, and it CERTAINLY does not have to be true that their damaging spells are better than technological weapons for them to believe that magic in general is superior to tech.

and considering almost every official spellcaster in the game starts with an assortment of technological devices, they appear to have absolutely no issues with being massive hypocrites about it.

[Curbludgeon]

I stand corrected about assuming above that PE was a typo for PPE. An attribute drain system for spellcasting has its own assorted issues, such as the availability of stat restoration, relation to attribute-draining attacks, and lower granularity in usage tracking. More directly, though, I don't see how it resolves the issue of casters using direct damage spells in lieu of traditional or TW weapons. Perhaps a fatigue mechanic reliant on stat checks or saves vs. coma/death, with increasing penalties for spellcasting without a break could better reflect the perceived need for combat magic.

Alternatively, I could see value in an OCC that has only has unlimited access to a certain number of spells, which don't utilize PPE. It would be akin to how animal psionics don't have an ISP cost. It could perhaps be a Mystic variant, which would in all likelihood help that OCC rise in people's general estimation. Additionally, I could see value in a class that has some number of spells they may use freely, a somewhat smaller than usual personal PPE pool, and the ability to learn and use other spells normally. Possible sources to draw upon for such could be the Lord Magus and Dweomer Mage. A simpler way to introduce that idea would be the permanent expenditure of PPE by a traditional caster to gain unlimited access to a spell. 21 PPE given up to be able to always cast Fire Bolt doesn't seem like the worst deal.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So, let's say I have a PE of 15.

How much spellcasting can I do?

Assuming we round fractions down, 1st level spells are free, right? But 2nd & 3rd level spells are 1, 4th & 5th are 2, 6th & 7th are 3, etc.

So, I could cast Call Lightning (6th level, 3 points) 5 times (5*3=15), and then what happens? I'm down to 0 PE... am I dead? Am I unconscious? When would I be able to recover some of the PE I expended on the spells? Would it matter if I was 6th level, not 1st level, myself?

Like I said, it seems like you switch from being "Spells are free" to "Spells have a different fixed cost, wherein the numbers are smaller."

Put that way it sounds like the worst of both (SPD & PPE) systems.
I would rather just use the D&D spells per day(rest) system OR the PB PPE system.

[Killer Cyborg]

A fairly common question, but what are your thoughts?

For me the PPE costs simply fail, as it is simpler to get a gun and shoot someone to death. I tend to apply a PE cost based upon level divided by two.

What do others do?

For ME, the PPE costs succeed; it is simpler to get a gun and shoot someone to death.

I don't want mages who use magic all the time, for everything.
I want mages who have a limited amount of energy that they can use, so they have to budget and choose wisely how they spend it.

When magic is a constant resource, it kinda stops being magical in a lot of ways.

So yeah, us an energy rifle for stuff as vulgar as daily violence.
Save magic for when you need to do something special.
Kind of like how Gandalf would use a sword or staff to fight goblins, and didn't pull out the big special effects unless he needed to.

[Killer Cyborg]

Basically, PPE is not an effective way to blast. If you want to shoot someone, you pull a gun.

Which kind of misses the whole idea of a high magic setting, and that is a problem. I should be able to magically shoot my way if I am pinned down by multiple laser wielding weirdos.

Nope.
That's like saying that Vagbonds should be able to "Eyeball A Fella" their way out when they're pinned down by multiple laser-wielding weirdos.
Or that a Body Fixer should be able to Diagnose their way out when they're pinned down by multiple laser-wielding weirdos.
Just because your OCC has a special trick doesn't mean it's the only move they have, or even their most commonly used move.

Same deal with Cyber Knights and their Psi-Swords.
Just because they have one doesn't mean that they use it in every fight.
Hell, the original CKs didn't even have to have a proficiency in it.
Save the special stuff for special occasions.

Edit:
Now, this is MY view. It's why the PPE ratings aren't at all bad in my mind.
I do get that some people want something different from Rifts, a style of play that the game wasn't designed for. So don't think for a moment that my grumblings mean that I disapprove of you houseruling however you like for your own games.
My main point is to try to get you to see a bit of a different perspective.

The history of Palladium's mages is roughly this:
Once upon a time, lots of people used lead figurines to reconstruct historical battles.
People wanted a way to run variant scenarios, so they started coming up with rules for how to determine what might have happened IF, for example, Napoleon attacked from the West instead of the North at some battle or other.
Then JRR Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings series, which had fantasy battles that were detailed enough for people to reconstruct THOSE battles with their lead minis.
People wanted rules to run alternate battle scenarios with orcs, wizards, and such, and new rule systems were created.
One of those was CHAINMAIL, which was adapted from the previous rules used for real-world military battles.
Magic Users/Mages in Chainmail were (IIRC) specifically adapted from the stats and rules previously used for cannons.
Consequently, mages in Chainmail--and it's offspring Dungeons & Dragons--mages are poor at combat, unless you really want to blow something UP.
D&D Magic Users therefore had limited weapons they could use (darts, daggers, staffs), and essentially NO non-magical armor. Even their magical armor (bracers/rings of Protection, etc.) often wasn't great.
Because they were cannons.
Palladium's system evolved from D&D, which evolved from Chainmail, which evolved from miniature war games.
In their system, Palladium made things better. They could fight better in melee, and their spell system allowed for casting the same spell multiple times without memorizing that spell multiple times. They were more versatile.
And when Rifts came out?
It was awesome, in part because magic users in Rifts could use the same weapons and armor as anybody else. So they weren't just stuck hiding behind the Fighter types at low levels. They might not be able to cast lots of spells at low levels, but they didn't NEED to because they (unlike many other mages in many other games) had other viable options.

Now, Rifts mages also evolved from the rules in Palladium's Horror RPG "Beyond The Supernatural," and magic in that setting was a powerful and dangerous force. Moreover, because they based the game on real-world parapsychological lore, as well as any number of movie/novel tropes, the rules reflected what they saw in such stories:
-Mages didn't cast spells all the time.
-For powerful magic, mages needed to take the time to perform a complex ritual, perhaps with a human or animal sacrifice being involved, OR with a whole group of people (cult!) channeling their combined energy to one person in order for THAT guy to pull some serious mojo out.

If mages can just whip out pretty much all the power they need at any time, for any situation or battle, then we lose one heck of a lot of plot elements.
IF mages can do that, then they don't need a cult. They don't need a sacrifice. They don't need to time a ritual at just the right time of day/season/year in order to make the most of their magic.
There's no need to BUDGET your magic.
Without budgeting PPE--and the plot elements that are involved in that--evil mages are more powerful, and less interesting.
PC mages are more powerful, and less interesting.

And man, it's a heck of a lot more satisfying to have a character spend 30 minutes chanting and holding hands with dozens of people, while your companions hold off the enemy long enough to get that spell out... and then BLAM! You finally get off that crucial fiend-slaying, world-saving spell!!
There's tension there.
There's something special there.
There's magic there.

Give mages all the PPE they want, and you might as well just make a superhero or something.

Not sure how much of that you'll agree with, but there it is.
Maybe think it over a bit.

[Rogerd]

For me the trouble is this, there is a disparity between the fluff in the books of what other magic-users have done, and the abstraction (game mechanics) put forth to represent them. I mean look at Erin Tarn, her stats and stuff are rubbish compared to what she was supposed to have accomplished.

So, let's say I have a PE of 15.

How much spellcasting can I do?

Assuming we round fractions down, 1st level spells are free, right? But 2nd & 3rd level spells are 1, 4th & 5th are 2, 6th & 7th are 3, etc.

So, I could cast Call Lightning (6th level, 3 points) 5 times (5*3=15), and then what happens? I'm down to 0 PE... am I dead? Am I unconscious? When would I be able to recover some of the PE I expended on the spells? Would it matter if I was 6th level, not 1st level, myself?

Like I said, it seems like you switch from being "Spells are free" to "Spells have a different fixed cost, wherein the numbers are smaller."

Yep, 1st & 2nd would be free - effectively DnD cantrips such that you could easily insert and use them if desired. 3rd would cost 1 PE, 4th 2 pts and so forth. And yes, to some extent you have the nail on the head, when it comes to level. How does that affect this system? Work-in-progress to some extent, and completely open to ideas currently.

So in your example at 0 PE, you will not be dead, but you would likely collapse due to exhaustion and require a good night's rest and a decent amount of food.
Okay, so let's look at it from these perspectives-

How often could a Level 10 Wizard cast Call Lightning?
Secondly, how often can a metahuman (from Heroes Unlimited) use an energy expulsion power (energy or electricity)?

Now I am not saying to make their damaging spells over the top powerful, I ma saying they should be at least on par with average weapons. 4d6md on Firebolt is cool and works fine as is. Hell I don't even want 1600-2000 ft ranges of most laser rifles, but come on, at least give me more than the length of an 18 wheeler and let me do it enough that I don;t burn ALL my PPE in one or two encounters just trying to defend myself.

^ A thousand times this.

I stand corrected about assuming above that PE was a typo for PPE. An attribute drain system for spellcasting has its own assorted issues, such as the availability of stat restoration, relation to attribute-draining attacks, and lower granularity in usage tracking. More directly, though, I don't see how it resolves the issue of casters using direct damage spells in lieu of traditional or TW weapons. Perhaps a fatigue mechanic reliant on stat checks or saves vs. coma/death, with increasing penalties for spellcasting without a break could better reflect the perceived need for combat magic.

Alternatively, I could see value in an OCC that has only has unlimited access to a certain number of spells, which don't utilize PPE. It would be akin to how animal psionics don't have an ISP cost. It could perhaps be a Mystic variant, which would in all likelihood help that OCC rise in people's general estimation. Additionally, I could see value in a class that has some number of spells they may use freely, a somewhat smaller than usual personal PPE pool, and the ability to learn and use other spells normally. Possible sources to draw upon for such could be the Lord Magus and Dweomer Mage. A simpler way to introduce that idea would be the permanent expenditure of PPE by a traditional caster to gain unlimited access to a spell. 21 PPE given up to be able to always cast Fire Bolt doesn't seem like the worst deal.

On the stat reduction, like I said I see it more as like going to the gym and can be separated into: light, medium, heavy, and maybe even have another state of over fatigued. For the first three, while your PE (and just ensure clarity, Physical endurance) will be temporarily reduced such that depending upon the exertion level you would recover after some food and some light rest. You could even apply a small ME reduction too, for overtaxing yourself mentally (higher level spells only), such that it also affects IQ.

Let's face it, how many times have you been fatigued that you cannot think clearly? I know I have, been physically exhausted my brain was mush, and in a similar fashion been mentally overtaxed sometimes i need to sleep to recover. So assigning an attribute reduction is to somewhat extent fairly realistic (as much as that holds in a world of super heroes).

Now, this is MY view. It's why the PPE ratings aren't at all bad in my mind.

I understand if that is how you want it, that is totally fine to be honest. Besides if we all agreed, all of the time wouldn't life be boring

For me though, Heroes Unlimited, Rifts, or Phase World - quite frankly you are effectively playing in Palladium's equivalent of the MCU.
Put a backpack on a Glitterboy and you have Tony Stark's Iron Man suit from the first Avengers movie. A juicer is Captain America, Thor a godling; etc.

[Library Ogre]

For me the trouble is this, there is a disparity between the fluff in the books of what other magic-users have done, and the abstraction (game mechanics) put forth to represent them. I mean look at Erin Tarn, her stats and stuff are rubbish compared to what she was supposed to have accomplished.

So, let's say I have a PE of 15.

How much spellcasting can I do?

Assuming we round fractions down, 1st level spells are free, right? But 2nd & 3rd level spells are 1, 4th & 5th are 2, 6th & 7th are 3, etc.

So, I could cast Call Lightning (6th level, 3 points) 5 times (5*3=15), and then what happens? I'm down to 0 PE... am I dead? Am I unconscious? When would I be able to recover some of the PE I expended on the spells? Would it matter if I was 6th level, not 1st level, myself?

Like I said, it seems like you switch from being "Spells are free" to "Spells have a different fixed cost, wherein the numbers are smaller."

Yep, 1st & 2nd would be free - effectively DnD cantrips such that you could easily insert and use them if desired. 3rd would cost 1 PE, 4th 2 pts and so forth. And yes, to some extent you have the nail on the head, when it comes to level. How does that affect this system? Work-in-progress to some extent, and completely open to ideas currently.

So in your example at 0 PE, you will not be dead, but you would likely collapse due to exhaustion and require a good night's rest and a decent amount of food.
Okay, so let's look at it from these perspectives-

How often could a Level 10 Wizard cast Call Lightning?
Secondly, how often can a metahuman (from Heroes Unlimited) use an energy expulsion power (energy or electricity)?

I'm not following your math on spell levels.

1 and 2 are free, no problem.
3 is 1.
4 is 2.
Does that mean 5 is 3? Or is 5 still 2, and 6 is 3?

And, again, you need to consider what the recharge rate is on PE; do I get 1 point of PE back per hour? 3 points? If it's 3 points, do I get back 1 point if I rest for 20 minutes? What does being down 10 PE *mean*? Is it different if you started with a 20 PE or a 15 PE? These are considerations to make when designing this system, making it useful instead of an idea.

****

Palladium's PPE system runs into some of the problem that AD&D spell point systems do... when your ability with a spell increases with your character level, then low-level, cheap, spells become incredible investments. 2e AD&D's spell point system (from Spells and Magic) had this problem... it was better, in most cases, to spend 4 points on a Magic Missile than 6 points on a Melf's Acid Arrow, because damage was comparable per casting and you could cast 3 Magic Missiles or 2 Melf's Acid Arrow, in which case the Magic Missile was a clear winner.

Take, for example, Call Lightning and Firebolt. Call Lightning is 1d6/level. Firebolt is 4d6, period. Leaving aside questions of dodges and such, Firebolt is almost always a better choice for a low-level character... it will do more damage, and cast more quickly. At 5th level, Call Lightning starts to pull ahead in terms of damage, but because it's a 6th level spell, it's slower than the 4th level Firebolt. Palladium's system isn't really prepared for these distinctions, unlike what you see in Hackmaster, D&D's Expanded Psionics Handbook for 3e, or D&D 5e's spell slot system, where the effects of a spell are fixed, unless you put more power into it from your character.

Notably, however, your system doesn't deal with this any better. As I said, your system just changes what the costs are... PE instead of PPE.

[Mack]

How often could a Level 10 Wizard cast Call Lightning?
Secondly, how often can a metahuman (from Heroes Unlimited) use an energy expulsion power (energy or electricity)?

How many other spells does a Level 10 Wizard have?
How many other abilities does a metahuman have?

[Killer Cyborg]

One idea I've toyed with in the past is with boosting spells across the board, due to the energy on Rifts Earth.
When Palladium translated spells from other settings to Rifts, they magnified the damage 100x, but that's pretty much it.
Range is the same, duration is the same, saving throws are the same, etc.

Would you feel better about the costs if you got more bang for your buck?

Boost Duration, and one casting of Armor of Ithan could last all day (or until the MDC is depleted), for example.
A Fire Bolt would be much more useful with 100x the range.
And so forth.

All this would make mages VERY powerful, but that seems to be what many people want, and I'd be curious to test this out someday to see how things worked out.

[Curbludgeon]

The number of times a given caster can use Call Lightning depends on the setting. Using average rolls for PE and PPE, a 10th level human of the following OCCs would have these totals:

Palladium 1e wizard: 15
Palladium 2e wizard: 14
Ley Line Walker: 15
Rifts Mystic: 8
Warlock: 16
Human Sorcerer from Nightbane setting: 7
A Nightbane Sorcerer: 17
Heroes Unlimited Mystic Study: 10 (12 if the character moves to Rifts Earth)
Chi Mage: 2.5
BTS Arcanist: 3(12 on Rifts Earth)

I don't know of any fatigue mechanic attached to Energy Expulsion powers, so a 10th level character with HtH Basic/Expert/MA could use that power 24 times a minute for all the live long day. A character with HtH Assassin, Boxing, and perhaps Extraordinary Endurance as a justification could spend 24 hours generating 46,080 expulsions.

There are a couple of printed methods for characters to be able to cast spells with the option of forgoing PPE to make attacks. The HU Mystically Bestowed character can have both super powers and spells at the cost of some of their PPE (A 1st level character would have ~40% the PPE of a MB character without super powers, moving to ~66% by 10th level). The "optional" Spellbound OCC for Nightbane as detailed in Rifter 84 can be empowered to cast a few spells that only affect themselves without limit, but has no real PPE themselves. An example 10th level Spellbound might have unlimited access to the spells Magic Armor, Superhuman Speed, Invisibility:Superior, and Metamorphosis:Superior. While the latter isn't particularly applicable here, I'd argue the former might prove a simpler approach that what is being otherwise suggested.

Pegging spell access to an ability score which then fluctuates would in this case have wider implications on how those attributes are handled in-game. Does PE temporarily expended via casting drain return more quickly than PE temporarlly lost due to ability damage? Does the rate of regaining PE change due to how exhausted the character is? What happens if a character's PE attribute goes negative due to simultaneous applications of attribute drain/damange?

A potential alternative could be to use standard PPE costs, but to have a proportion of that cost return to the caster after a short rest. That would allow for casters to run out of PPE in the course of a fight without it ruining the rest of their day while still demonstrating attrition.

[Library Ogre]

A potential alternative could be to use standard PPE costs, but to have a proportion of that cost return to the caster after a short rest. That would allow for casters to run out of PPE in the course of a fight without it ruining the rest of their day while still demonstrating attrition.

Of course, this is already in the rules... the rate of return is just relatively slow, unless you have external sources of PPE to work with. A short rest on a ley line is a lot more energizing than a short rest away from one.

[Mlp7029]

A fairly common question, but what are your thoughts?

For me the PPE costs simply fail, as it is simpler to get a gun and shoot someone to death. I tend to apply a PE cost based upon level divided by two.

What do others do?

In our game a PPE Talisman bracelet with 10 PPE Talismans costs about what an e-clip does in towns like Tolkeen, Lazlo, etc. where there is safe access to a ley line or nexus. A mages starting equipment includes at least 1D4 Talismans bracelets. Additionally a PPE Talisman holds 150 PPE instead of 50 PPE. My GM also gives mages max PPE they could roll. For all the interesting TW in the Tolkeen books they left out the PPE Talisman mass production factories. PPE Talisman factories were the first TW factories built on Rifts Earth in our game. These changes came about after my first adventure playing a mage. I ran short of PPE repeatedly so I was gathering PPE from every source I could. The group laid over in Tolkeen between adventures and my character, a Temporal Wizard who knew the Talisman spell, recruited several 1st level mages and started mass producing Talismans. 10 mages sitting in a circle on a ley line draw 40 PPE per minute per mage or 400 per minute x 60 minutes per hour = 24000 PPE per hour. That is a maximum 48000 PPE Talismans per hour assuming it takes 500 PPE to create a Talisman. Thus was born the PPE bracelet as the equivalent of an e-clip in our game.

[Curbludgeon]

A potential alternative could be to use standard PPE costs, but to have a proportion of that cost return to the caster after a short rest. That would allow for casters to run out of PPE in the course of a fight without it ruining the rest of their day while still demonstrating attrition.

Of course, this is already in the rules... the rate of return is just relatively slow, unless you have external sources of PPE to work with. A short rest on a ley line is a lot more energizing than a short rest away from one.

I was referring more to a notion of a very temporary fatigue akin to catching one's breath in a game concerned with not having enough PPE. Perhaps 75% of PPE expended in an encounter is of this variety, the fatigue of which is dispelled in 5 minute increments over 15 minutes. This would allow more casting of combat magic over the course of several hours than simply reducing the cost of spells overall, while not allowing a caster to spam Call Lightning dozens of times in one combat like that LARP kid 15 years back. It would require keeping note of PPE at the beginning of an encounter and add another step of basic math, but retro games like this practically celebrate that.

To not make too much of a detour from this thread's subject on different spell point accounting systems I'm going to start another thread.

[zexsis]

What FUN does this idea add to the game? Does it add fun or simply another accounting method to be tracked? Id say if your idea just adds more accounting (and i think it does) then you may be viewing gameplay and perhaps the system as a whole in a manner that is detracting from the idea of roleplaying which is to have fun. Many people dont track even half the stuff as it is so why add more junk to clutter a character sheet even more.

I personally only halfass track my ppe, isp, mdc, etc. Why? Because its not fun to do so... (exceptions to all things ok i get that). Whats important to me is the story progression. Character development. How does this or that character build work out.. that kind of thing.

You could just make new spells to have more fun as a mage.

[Borast]

How often could a Level 10 Wizard cast Call Lightning?
Secondly, how often can a metahuman (from Heroes Unlimited) use an energy expulsion power (energy or electricity)?

Depends on his/her PPE base, and how much (s)he's used already...at a rate of 2 per melee, each costing 2 actions.

Once per action every melee round equivalent, all day. Super powers, last I remember, don't use ISP/PPE, burn HPs/SDC, etc...unless it is a psi or magic power...or, unless it says so in the power description.

The wizard's lighting bolt, however, is affected by level of PPE...if you're on a Ley Line or Nexus, you can do more damage, and can use *it* for part/all of your PPE costs.

[Rogerd]

How many other spells does a Level 10 Wizard have?
How many other abilities does a metahuman have?

The important thing here is that a metahuman can essentially use their energy expulsion power without limit, if I recall the rules correctly. Now no matter how you look at it, whether you call them a metahuman power, or magic - they're essentially the same thing.

And should be treated the exact same way.

The number of times a given caster can use Call Lightning depends on the setting. Using average rolls for PE and PPE, a 10th level human of the following OCCs would have these totals:

Palladium 1e wizard: 15
Palladium 2e wizard: 14
Ley Line Walker: 15
Rifts Mystic: 8
Warlock: 16
Human Sorcerer from Nightbane setting: 7
A Nightbane Sorcerer: 17
Heroes Unlimited Mystic Study: 10 (12 if the character moves to Rifts Earth)
Chi Mage: 2.5
BTS Arcanist: 3(12 on Rifts Earth)

While this may be using averages, an 8th Wizard from Library (pg 152 I think) can only cast it 3-4 times before tapping out.
So I am not entirely sure this is totally accurate.

What FUN does this idea add to the game? Does it add fun or simply another accounting method to be tracked? Id say if your idea just adds more accounting (and i think it does) then you may be viewing gameplay and perhaps the system as a whole in a manner that is detracting from the idea of roleplaying which is to have fun. Many people dont track even half the stuff as it is so why add more junk to clutter a character sheet even more.

I personally only halfass track my ppe, isp, mdc, etc. Why? Because its not fun to do so... (exceptions to all things ok i get that). Whats important to me is the story progression. Character development. How does this or that character build work out.. that kind of thing.

You could just make new spells to have more fun as a mage.

My idea is to reduce that - but yeah, best answer so far.
Personally I tend to be very like you, extremely lax such that I likely would not bother counting PPE like at all unless someone starts using it to spam someone.

I'm not following your math on spell levels.

1 and 2 are free, no problem.
3 is 1.
4 is 2.
Does that mean 5 is 3? Or is 5 still 2, and 6 is 3?

I would round 5 to 2, and 6 to 3.
Is this perfect, absolutely not.

And, again, you need to consider what the recharge rate is on PE; do I get 1 point of PE back per hour? 3 points? If it's 3 points, do I get back 1 point if I rest for 20 minutes? What does being down 10 PE *mean*? Is it different if you started with a 20 PE or a 15 PE? These are considerations to make when designing this system, making it useful instead of an idea.

You are absolutely right here - it is just an idea, and needs refining, a lot. And i freely admit that. i want wizards that can match the fluff written, not hindered by game mechanics such that they become nigh useless. Does this mean that magic may also require some reworking, i would say that too is true. For instance, as you have rightly pointed out some spells are Xd6 peer level, while others are a flat 6d6. This system flat out would not work with that kind of scenario, and would require another mechanic to account for this - something i feel would be far too much.

I would certainly say that you would get back 3 PE per hr, if you have not overly taxed yourself. But you could again add another mechanic, that the recovery rate is dependent on your PE attribute. If over X value, you get Y value back each round from using magic.

[ITWastrel]

I've begun a house rule that all mages in Rifts have a "Free Mana" amount of 10 PPE plus 2 per level, starting at L1. Any spell cast has it's PPE cost reduced by that amount. That means a lvl 1 mage has 12PPE off the top of any spell she casts, and any spell under 12PPE is free. A 25PPE spell costs him 13 from his pool, and a 100PPE spell costs 88. A lvl 10 mage would have 30PPE off the top.

This allows a mage to throw cheap, easy spells all day long. They never worry about fire bolt or basic protections, but still have to make decisions about investing in powerful magics. It makes mages a viable choice, and stops them from being an accessory to the warrior types, just there to buff the fighters and magic open doors.

[Library Ogre]

I've begun a house rule that all mages in Rifts have a "Free Mana" amount of 10 PPE plus 2 per level, starting at L1. Any spell cast has it's PPE cost reduced by that amount. That means a lvl 1 mage has 12PPE off the top of any spell she casts, and any spell under 12PPE is free. A 25PPE spell costs him 13 from his pool, and a 100PPE spell costs 88. A lvl 10 mage would have 30PPE off the top.

This allows a mage to throw cheap, easy spells all day long. They never worry about fire bolt or basic protections, but still have to make decisions about investing in powerful magics. It makes mages a viable choice, and stops them from being an accessory to the warrior types, just there to buff the fighters and magic open doors.

Not a bad rule; works out somewhat like D&D Cantrips.

Combining it with RogerD's idea, what if you set that number as PE? So, with a PE of 15, you could cast anything under 15 PPE for free, but anything higher tapped your reserves.

[Borast]

I've begun a house rule that all mages in Rifts have a "Free Mana" amount of 10 PPE plus 2 per level, starting at L1. Any spell cast has it's PPE cost reduced by that amount. That means a lvl 1 mage has 12PPE off the top of any spell she casts, and any spell under 12PPE is free. A 25PPE spell costs him 13 from his pool, and a 100PPE spell costs 88. A lvl 10 mage would have 30PPE off the top.

This allows a mage to throw cheap, easy spells all day long. They never worry about fire bolt or basic protections, but still have to make decisions about investing in powerful magics. It makes mages a viable choice, and stops them from being an accessory to the warrior types, just there to buff the fighters and magic open doors.

Not a bad rule; works out somewhat like D&D Cantrips.

Combining it with RogerD's idea, what if you set that number as PE? So, with a PE of 15, you could cast anything under 15 PPE for free, but anything higher tapped your reserves.

Add to that, I'd suggest adding in a bonus every couple of levels, like the increase to the mage's spell strength...essentially, even though the mage's PE (likely) doesn't change, the body becomes used to the ebb and flow of power through it.

In any case, I'll keep using the PPE system as is.

[Rogerd]

You could add another mechanic to this too, more advanced (high level) spells also drain IQ and ME. Say anything above lvl 10 drains 1 point from both to reflect that some things are mentally and physically draining too.

This sort of reflects real world that sometimes you can do something that drains you mentally, and you cannot think straight after. How many times times has a character in fiction said that their brain has turned to sludge? A few hours rest, and they are ready to go again.

[Killer Cyborg]

You could add another mechanic to this too, more advanced (high level) spells also drain IQ and ME. Say anything above lvl 10 drains 1 point from both to reflect that some things are mentally and physically draining too.

This sort of reflects real world that sometimes you can do something that drains you mentally, and you cannot think straight after. How many times times has a character in fiction said that their brain has turned to sludge? A few hours rest, and they are ready to go again.

In my own system, I've toyed with the idea of having spells (or various other things) use attribute points as spell points, with different mages being able to choose different attributes depending on their school of magic and/or style.

So one mage might cast spells, but each spell cast makes him a bit dumber for a while (IQ),
another mage might cast spells where each casting costs him some physical energy (PE),
another mage might cast spells using PB, transforming hideously the more they use their magic.
In all cases, the attribute points would recover at some kind of decent rate.

[Shark_Force]

How many other spells does a Level 10 Wizard have?
How many other abilities does a metahuman have?

The important thing here is that a metahuman can essentially use their energy expulsion power without limit, if I recall the rules correctly. Now no matter how you look at it, whether you call them a metahuman power, or magic - they're essentially the same thing.

And should be treated the exact same way.

no. they shouldn't.

they should be treated differently because they *are* different.

the level 10 wizard that can do dozens of different tricks is NOT being treated the same as the person with a couple of superpowers. they are ALREADY not the same. not even close.

palladium games are balanced (to the extent that they are) by having different characters able to do different things. a glitter boy pilot is great at combat (especially long-range combat), and is often pretty useful in social situations most of the time due to the reputation they enjoy, but is not particularly great at magically teleporting people around the world or telepathically scanning people's minds to get important information.

if you just upgrade the spellcasting classes to have all the stamina of classes that gain a handful of specific abilities with the benefit that they can do them over and over and over, you may as well just delete those other classes, because you've given away everything of value that they could bring to the table. if that's what you want, then fine, do that, but don't try and present this as if it is a huge problem that a magician can do danged near anything but actually has a meaningful limitation of any sort. they have that limitation for a reason. making them the best at everything without suffering any limitations is not good design unless the entire game is supposed to be revolving around magicians with everyone else being secondary.

now, if that's what you want, I don't know why you aren't just playing mage: the ascension or something like that, where they don't waste any time pretending that non-mages are in any way the equivalent of a mage. the advantage to a palladium RPG, in my mind, is that you can show up with a cyber-knight and a rogue scientist and play them in the same group, as equals in status in spite of their substantial differences in capabilities in various fields. well, that and the setting. and if you're just going to hand wizards absolute unlimited power, that pretty much breaks both.

[Rogerd]

they should be treated differently because they *are* different.

It is all Space Magic, no more, no less.
So they're exactly the same.

the level 10 wizard that can do dozens of different tricks is NOT being treated the same as the person with a couple of superpowers. they are ALREADY not the same. not even close.

Except of course Magneto can do some really funky stuff, as can the Silver Surfer. And of course, so too can Shang Chi and Iron Fist (with their chi); and then we have Doctor Strange. So this line of logic utterly fails. Even at lower levels Cloak & Dagger can do some interesting stuff with their powers. Then there is Sue Richards with her forcefields, I mean the list goes on. So innumerable heroes (and metas / mutants) can have a variety of effects with their powers.

if you just upgrade the spellcasting classes to have all the stamina of classes that gain a handful of specific abilities with the benefit that they can do them over and over and over, you may as well just delete those other classes, because you've given away everything of value that they could bring to the table.

That is true of a lot of classes, so this is line of logic just does not work either.
Because a mage is going to run out of energy before someone with a blaster - they can easily replace the e-clip. A mage on the other hand is a bit knackered. It simply allows them to stay in the fight longer.

Plus I find it amazing that people keep ignoring the fluff, that it is supposed to be a high magic setting yet they moan that a mage should be able to match someone with a blaster, at least for a short while.

if that's what you want, then fine, do that, but don't try and present this as if it is a huge problem that a magician can do danged near anything but actually has a meaningful limitation of any sort. they have that limitation for a reason. making them the best at everything without suffering any limitations is not good design unless the entire game is supposed to be revolving around magicians with everyone else being secondary.

Again, high magic setting - something you seem to keep forgetting. It is a setting where magic powers spaceships. And yeah, they are limited, in the spells they have. Not the least of which, a mage is never going to kick out the same amount of firepower at a glitterboy, or fusion cube. It is doubtful even one of the pantheon members can do that. So again, it is a false argument.

now, if that's what you want, I don't know why you aren't just playing mage: the ascension or something like that, where they don't waste any time pretending that non-mages are in any way the equivalent of a mage.

Except that they have a limitation, Paradox.

[Shark_Force]

magic can equal a blaster for short durations. depending on the magic, they can exceed a blaster. depending on the magic, they can even rival the most destructive standard long-range missiles in the game, at least as far as damage is concerned.

and yes, it's all made up stuff. but the made up stuff is designed for a game, and a game where a ley line walker can replace everyone else in the party is a crap game unless everyone is supposed to be a ley line walker and other characters are basically just there as supporting cast.

magic is already incredibly powerful. it can do things far beyond what technology is remotely close to being capable of. it can provide incredible versatility. it does not need to also have a bottomless supply of energy. rifts is plenty "high magic" without just letting them cast things infinitely. in rifts you can grant someone a force field that can stop energy blasts that would vapourize a car or level a house. you can make someone immune to energy attacks. you can control someone's mind. you can teleport across the planet or even the universe in an instant. you can create matter ex nihilo.

if you would stop using it for the handful of things it *isn't* good at, you would find that the mage will probably completely and utterly ruin some random person with a laser within a couple of actions, without using a single fire bolt. fairly often, they can even do that against power armour or robot vehicles too. they are not lacking in power, unless you try to use them for the one thing they are designed to do relatively poorly at.

[Rogerd]

it can do things far beyond what technology is remotely close to being capable of.

This is not correct mate.
'Magic' in Palladium is essentially scientific in nature, it can be observed, measured, and replicated. It is a natural force, that is the blurb in most books!

you can make someone immune to energy attacks. you can control someone's mind. you can teleport across the planet or even the universe in an instant. you can create matter ex nihilo.

Do you really think an interstellar polity can survive without some form of 3D printer? Not gonna happen. it is why Star Trek has synthesisers, which were then replaced with replicators. Forcefields on doors, whether it is technological in nature, or magic, is irrelevant, it is a forcefield. Whereas one interstellar polity might use technology, another may do exactly the same with magic.

Potato, Partarto.

if you would stop using it for the handful of things it *isn't* good at, you would find that the mage will probably completely and utterly ruin some random person with a laser within a couple of actions, without using a single fire bolt. fairly often, they can even do that against power armour or robot vehicles too. they are not lacking in power, unless you try to use them for the one thing they are designed to do relatively poorly at.

Where to start here.......well firstly, look at Avengers infinity War, and then Endgame.
We have an absolutely perfect parallel here, too good not to be used. Thanos's forces attack Strange and co. at the start of IW. All hold their own, and would you look at that magic does not dominate. In fact it is the guy with an armoured suit.

Later on, Strange faces Thanos himself, using some fairly impressive magic. But still loses. It takes a team up near the end of Endgame of a Super Soldier (HU), Godling (Pantheons of the Megaverse), and Power Armour (PW, Rifts, HU) to even strand a chance. And they thoroughly give a good accounting of themselves.

So taking away some of the point costs of magic, would not make it dominate - it would make it shine, and become an invaluable member of the team.

[Killer Cyborg]

So taking away some of the point costs of magic, would not make it dominate - it would make it shine, and become an invaluable member of the team.

It already IS an invaluable member of the team, which I suspect was Shark's point.

[Rogerd]

It already IS an invaluable member of the team, which I suspect was Shark's point.

But they're not, game mechanics makes it so that they have to be able to think outside the box with the use of their powers and can in most circumstances maybe use 8-10 projection powers while an e-clip holds far more leaving the mage defenseless.

However, the fluff and magic books state quite clearly that mages think magic is superior, and will not use technology - this same technology makes their power redundant. So game mechanics and fluff need to sync.

[Shark_Force]

it can do things far beyond what technology is remotely close to being capable of.

This is not correct mate.
'Magic' in Palladium is essentially scientific in nature, it can be observed, measured, and replicated. It is a natural force, that is the blurb in most books!

you can make someone immune to energy attacks. you can control someone's mind. you can teleport across the planet or even the universe in an instant. you can create matter ex nihilo.

Do you really think an interstellar polity can survive without some form of 3D printer? Not gonna happen. it is why Star Trek has synthesisers, which were then replaced with replicators. Forcefields on doors, whether it is technological in nature, or magic, is irrelevant, it is a forcefield. Whereas one interstellar polity might use technology, another may do exactly the same with magic.

Potato, Partarto.

if you would stop using it for the handful of things it *isn't* good at, you would find that the mage will probably completely and utterly ruin some random person with a laser within a couple of actions, without using a single fire bolt. fairly often, they can even do that against power armour or robot vehicles too. they are not lacking in power, unless you try to use them for the one thing they are designed to do relatively poorly at.

Where to start here.......well firstly, look at Avengers infinity War, and then Endgame.
We have an absolutely perfect parallel here, too good not to be used. Thanos's forces attack Strange and co. at the start of IW. All hold their own, and would you look at that magic does not dominate. In fact it is the guy with an armoured suit.

Later on, Strange faces Thanos himself, using some fairly impressive magic. But still loses. It takes a team up near the end of Endgame of a Super Soldier (HU), Godling (Pantheons of the Megaverse), and Power Armour (PW, Rifts, HU) to even strand a chance. And they thoroughly give a good accounting of themselves.

So taking away some of the point costs of magic, would not make it dominate - it would make it shine, and become an invaluable member of the team.

- magic in palladium is not particularly scientific in nature, actually. your personal belief in magic can make it work or not, for example. it is entirely subjective. if person A genuinely believes a ritual will work, and person B believes a ritual will work but not for them, and person C believes a ritual will not work at all, they can each perform the ritual and experience different results.

- I don't give a rat's ass if some interstellar polity can or can't survive without a 3d printer. they still aren't producing matter ex nihilo, or doing any of those other things I listed that magic can do. a forcefield can be overcome. impervious to energy just shrugs off as much energy as you care to throw its way and a wall of defence doesn't even care what kind of destructive implement you throw its way. magic can teleport you across the entire universe in an instant. technology, especially in rifts, mostly struggles with even getting anything across a room, never mind across the universe. magic has tremendous power to accomplish incredible things. it does not need more in order to be relevant.

- I'm not sure what your rambling about movies is intended to prove, nor do I particularly care. those are movies. this is a game. it doesn't matter if the actor for Thor thinks it sucks that he's demoted to comedy relief as fat Thor. it doesn't matter if the actor for Bruce Banner spends an entire movie being utterly unable to contribute in any meaningful way because the Hulk doesn't want to show up. they're paid actors, they're there to do a job, and that job is to act out a story. that does not compare to a game, where everyone has to feel useful and have fun. if you take away the limitations from magic that are designed to keep it from taking over the game, that causes problems, because now the magic person starts to become the everything person. repair a damaged suit of armour? no problem, magic can do that. heal injuries or ever restore life to the dead? no problem, got you covered. need an antimatter explosion dropped upside the BBEG's head? no sweat. change the weather, solve the energy crisis, get past enemy patrols, make you stronger, better, and faster, help you quit smoking, you name it, there's a fair chance magic can do it. the downside of all this is that they can't do it all without running out of energy. that's by design. I mean, it's definitely stretching to describe palladium material as extremely balanced, and in rifts that is even more true. but even they recognize that if there isn't a strictly balanced state of affairs, they should at least put some effort into having characters that have different strengths and weaknesses, rather than just giving one character type only strengths and no weaknesses, so that yes, you might see a vagabond and a mind melter adventuring together, and they are probably not equally powerful, but it is at least *possible* for the vagabond to find a time to shine. this is important, because without that time to shine, the vagabond is not having fun, and ultimately, that's the entire point: for everyone to get together and have fun. if the magic person is constantly hogging the spotlight, that generally speaking ruins the fun. now, if you plan on paying a bunch of people to join your gaming group as characters that follow you around and be your minions, that's your business, I suppose. but if you want other people to have fun, you're gonna need to share that fun with them.

It already IS an invaluable member of the team, which I suspect was Shark's point.

But they're not, game mechanics makes it so that they have to be able to think outside the box with the use of their powers and can in most circumstances maybe use 8-10 projection powers while an e-clip holds far more leaving the mage defenseless.

However, the fluff and magic books state quite clearly that mages think magic is superior, and will not use technology - this same technology makes their power redundant. So game mechanics and fluff need to sync.

the books really don't say that at all.

it does say that mages think magic is superior. then it gives them a bunch of technological gear useful in performing a variety of tasks, ranging from shooting people to recording information to gathering information and other things.

in fact, if you would turn to page 188 of RUE, it says: "...few practitioners of magic dismiss technology out of hand. While it is true most rely heavily on their magic powers and natural abilities, most d-bee and human sorcerers use technology. Energy weapons, vibro-blades, portable computers, recorders, cameras, robot medical systems, language translators, radio communicators, optic systems (binoculars, etc.), partial M.D.C. body armor, light vehicles, air filters, and goggles are all commonly part of the magic characters' gear and equipment".

so frankly, no. they don't hate technology. they don't refuse to use it. they don't fear it. they actually welcome it and use it for a wide variety of things.

they prefer magic, but just like "I prefer spaghetti over pork roast and believe it is the superior food" does not mean that I will throw any pork roast that comes across my plate directly into the garbage can, preferring magic over technology and thinking it is superior does not mean they don't ever use tech.

furthermore, the idea that a magic user must think outside of the box to be effective in a palladium is laughably absurd. there is nothing creative about the words "I cast magic net", but it has utterly crushed a number of fights in a single action for me that would otherwise have required the group to take a lot of damage and expend a lot of expensive ammunition, and possibly even be killed. "I turn invisible and sneak past" (or otherwise using magic in a very straightforward manner, like using an earth warlock's ability to phase through earth with a spell) has likewise solved many problems. similar things come up with "I cast impervious to energy" or "I cast invulnerability" or "I cast mystic portal" or any number of other spells which can frequently solve all manner of problems in a very straightforward manner, ranging all across the board, not covering combat only.

and quite frankly, you should look at the experience tables some time. getting creative - REGARDLESS of character class - is encouraged and rewarded. combat is so kludgy in this game, that quite frankly if the only thing you can think of in your list of important things to do is combat, then I highly recommend you find a game system that resolves combat much more quickly and consistently, because quite frankly, this one is god-awful at it.

furthermore, magic isn't even genuinely bad at blasting. by the time you've reached around 3rd or 4th level, you should be able to out-perform the average energy pistol with a simple throwing stones spell, which is available to most starting magic-users that rely on standard invocations starting from the moment they create the character (not that you particularly need to rely on that, seeing as how magic users do not hate tech, and most of them actually start off with an energy weapon, making it utterly baffling as to how you could possibly wind up defenceless against a person who has one when you have a gun AND magic but they only have the gun; if anything *they* should be complaining that you got to throw out 8-10 energy blasts (many more with the right spells) before having to waste any of your precious e-clip charge, which unlike your PPE can't be recharged in the middle of nowhere, never mind how the fight would go if you just used one of your straightforward spells to just ignore all of their energy blasts while you casually walk up and fry them with a laser welder or something if they refuse to surrender).

magic in the palladium system is incredibly powerful. it is certainly *more* powerful if you think outside the box, but then again:

1) so is everything else, and
2) you're supposed to be thinking outside of the box. you might get 25-50 xp for blowing through a huge portion of your e-clips and MDC if you pick a fight with a couple of xiticix on patrol. you'll gain 75-125 for using prowl to avoid the combat without expending any resources (25 for using a skill, 50-100 for avoiding unnecessary violence). if you come up with a clever plan as part of avoiding violence, that goes up to 100-225 xp (an additional 25-100 for a clever or useful idea)

and, while I'm at it, 3) even if you don't get creative, the mage still has a huge advantage because they have a self-renewing resource PLUS the backup option of technology, which means that they can pick a fight with a couple xiticix and be back at full (or almost full) capacity after a decent night of rest because none of the damage dealt to their armour of ithan spell sticks, and they can recharge their TW rifle back to full at a moment's notice.

[Rogerd]

magic in palladium is not particularly scientific in nature

Wrong

Rifts Ultimate Edition Said: Magic is a natural force that has existed since the dawn of time.

Emphasis mine. So yeah it is scientific, can be observed, and science applied to it, sort of how Techno-Wizardry came about.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Said: Meanwhile, the desire to meld the twin sciences of magic and technology has given birth to Techno- Wizardry.

It clearly states that magic is science based.

I don't give a rat's ass if some interstellar polity can or can't survive without a 3d printer. they still aren't producing matter ex nihilo, or doing any of those other things I listed that magic can do. a forcefield can be overcome.

A replicator seemingly creates ex nihilo - but it does not really, and neither does magic. The game mechanics are an abstraction, for all we know it could draw energy from hyperspace, or the user could be using PPE to get magic to act as a transformer boosting the input. Magic in Palladium, as just proven is scientific in nature - it may bend physics to make things fun - like in Star trek, but it still follows rules.

impervious to energy just shrugs off as much energy as you care to throw its way and a wall of defence doesn't even care what kind of destructive implement you throw its way.

No, just no.
This is the kind of rules lawyering, and game mechanics abuse used in DnD, and other systems to justify an NLF. And it is just bad.

magic can teleport you across the entire universe in an instant.

Citation needed.

I'm not sure what your rambling about movies is intended to prove, nor do I particularly care.

May I suggest you re-read the post again - it proves my whole point showing that removing some limitations to magic does not mean it will outclass everything, or everyone else. It has a place. Plus, magic in MCU is also science based, kind of bringing us a very, very useful parallel here.

if you take away the limitations from magic that are designed to keep it from taking over the game, that causes problems, because now the magic person starts to become the everything person. repair a damaged suit of armour?

You are not taking any limitation of magic, just making it more useful.

furthermore, the idea that a magic user must think outside of the box to be effective in a palladium is laughably absurd.

False.

Rifts Book of Magic Said: they may be able to come up with a new way to use a spell of theirs innovatively to make it fit the bill. I would strongly recommend giving extra experience points or some other reward for a particularly innovative or creative way to use a spell or power, definitely more than just "using a skill or power"

Emphasis mine. Yep, think outside the box.

furthermore, magic isn't even genuinely bad at blasting. by the time you've reached around 3rd or 4th level, you should be able to out-perform the average energy pistol with a simple throwing stones spell, which is available to most starting magic-users that rely on standard invocations starting from the moment they create the character (not that you particularly need to rely on that, seeing as how magic users do not hate tech,

Yes it is, it is terrible.

Rifts Book of Magic Said: "Hm, I can Fire Bolt that guy eight times completely depleting my P.P.E., or I can shoot him with my gun and only use my ammunition. Both do the same damage and the gun can shoot twice as far (or more likely, lots more than that). Guess I ' ll use my gun" The worst part is, many times this may actually make the most sense, but it detracts from the whole character of a mage.

Emphasis mine. so yeah, you're wrong, again.

magic in the palladium system is incredibly powerful.

Rifts Book of Magic Said: Most high level spells are not unbalancingly powerful

At this point, it is like we're reading two totally different RPG's, it really is.
Which kind of brings me full circle really - that magic just needs a few tweaks to make it work better.

[Shark_Force]

magic in palladium is not particularly scientific in nature

Wrong

Rifts Ultimate Edition Said: Magic is a natural force that has existed since the dawn of time.

Emphasis mine. So yeah it is scientific, can be observed, and science applied to it, sort of how Techno-Wizardry came about.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Said: Meanwhile, the desire to meld the twin sciences of magic and technology has given birth to Techno- Wizardry.

It clearly states that magic is science based.

I don't give a rat's ass if some interstellar polity can or can't survive without a 3d printer. they still aren't producing matter ex nihilo, or doing any of those other things I listed that magic can do. a forcefield can be overcome.

A replicator seemingly creates ex nihilo - but it does not really, and neither does magic. The game mechanics are an abstraction, for all we know it could draw energy from hyperspace, or the user could be using PPE to get magic to act as a transformer boosting the input. Magic in Palladium, as just proven is scientific in nature - it may bend physics to make things fun - like in Star trek, but it still follows rules.

impervious to energy just shrugs off as much energy as you care to throw its way and a wall of defence doesn't even care what kind of destructive implement you throw its way.

No, just no.
This is the kind of rules lawyering, and game mechanics abuse used in DnD, and other systems to justify an NLF. And it is just bad.

magic can teleport you across the entire universe in an instant.

Citation needed.

I'm not sure what your rambling about movies is intended to prove, nor do I particularly care.

May I suggest you re-read the post again - it proves my whole point showing that removing some limitations to magic does not mean it will outclass everything, or everyone else. It has a place. Plus, magic in MCU is also science based, kind of bringing us a very, very useful parallel here.

if you take away the limitations from magic that are designed to keep it from taking over the game, that causes problems, because now the magic person starts to become the everything person. repair a damaged suit of armour?

You are not taking any limitation of magic, just making it more useful.

furthermore, the idea that a magic user must think outside of the box to be effective in a palladium is laughably absurd.

False.

Rifts Book of Magic Said: they may be able to come up with a new way to use a spell of theirs innovatively to make it fit the bill. I would strongly recommend giving extra experience points or some other reward for a particularly innovative or creative way to use a spell or power, definitely more than just "using a skill or power"

Emphasis mine. Yep, think outside the box.

furthermore, magic isn't even genuinely bad at blasting. by the time you've reached around 3rd or 4th level, you should be able to out-perform the average energy pistol with a simple throwing stones spell, which is available to most starting magic-users that rely on standard invocations starting from the moment they create the character (not that you particularly need to rely on that, seeing as how magic users do not hate tech,

Yes it is, it is terrible.

Rifts Book of Magic Said: "Hm, I can Fire Bolt that guy eight times completely depleting my P.P.E., or I can shoot him with my gun and only use my ammunition. Both do the same damage and the gun can shoot twice as far (or more likely, lots more than that). Guess I ' ll use my gun" The worst part is, many times this may actually make the most sense, but it detracts from the whole character of a mage.

Emphasis mine. so yeah, you're wrong, again.

magic in the palladium system is incredibly powerful.

Rifts Book of Magic Said: Most high level spells are not unbalancingly powerful

At this point, it is like we're reading two totally different RPG's, it really is.
Which kind of brings me full circle really - that magic just needs a few tweaks to make it work better.

- you can make a science out of studying magic, in the sense that you can attempt to quantify everything about it and apply the scientific method to figuring out how it works. that does not mean that the practice of magic is itself a science. again, multiple people performing the exact same ritual can get completely different results that will be consistent across their own use of it, and completely different from what someone else gets. two different people performing completely different rituals can generate the exact same results, and every part of both rituals can be absolutely 100% necessary to each of them being able to obtain that result; leave out one thing from either ritual, and it stops functioning properly. I don't particularly care what words the books use to describe it. magic is not science. it follows different rules.

- so, just to be clear, you're allowed to pull things out of your ass, and I have to provide citations for everything? because I don't see any citations about magic drawing energy from hyperspace to create things, or acting as a transformer to... boost the input of whatever it is you think is going on. if it follows any rules, those rules are not necessarily consistent from one practitioner to the next.

- I don't think you even know what rules lawyering is. the impervious to energy spell clearly lays out the fact that it makes you impervious to energy, in both the name and the description. if you get shot with 10,000 plasma cannons, you are impervious. there is no weird reading of the rule. just a straight reading of the spell doing exactly what it says it does, without needing to twist anything. the spell does what it says. it says it makes energy attacks do nothing to you. therefore, energy attacks do nothing to you, whether they are powerful or weak, big or small, many or few.

- any spell that can create a rift can teleport you across the universe in an instant.

- your post about a movie that is not a palladium game does nothing to prove anything. palladium is not the MCU. the laws there are different. and again, most importantly, the medium is entirely different. magic can work however the hell it wants in the MCU, because it doesn't matter if Dr Strange doesn't use any of his many abilities to accomplish anything remotely effective. if Tony Stark is decided to be the main character, Dr Strange can just sit around with his thumb up his ass doing nothing because again, the actor is being paid to do a job. tabletop RPGs don't work like that. you can't tell the rest of the group "ok, your job is to make this guy look good, so make stupid decisions that require him to do everything and ensure that any contribution you make is ultimately pointless unless it makes him look even more important". Dr Strange has a multitude of abilities. we see him use basically none of them in end game/infinity war movies. so sure, if the magic user just pretends that they don't have any spells that could ever be useful, they might need some help, but the proper solution here is to just not be written into acting like a moron.

- magic requiring PPE to use is a limitation. if you remove that, you are removing a limitation. I'm not sure how this can be made any more simple.

- yes, magic is encouraged to think outside of the box (as is everything else). that is not the same thing as it being necessary in order to get tremendous value out of it. I've already listed several extremely obvious straightforward uses of magic in palladium that have incredibly powerful effects. I could list more, but I have better things to do with my time than explain the basic function of spells that have an obvious way to use them.

- that is a very nice cherry you have picked there. way to ignore the spell that I explicitly listed as a direct damage attack that does just fine for the role you claim to want to fill. again: throwing stones. look it up. it's a standard invocation, level 2 (so again, as I already said, it is available to most starting magic using characters that use standard invocation magic). it costs very little to cast, and basically gives you a laser pistol except better, if you're going to insist on playing a braindead moron who you have told me is a scientist and yet cannot figure out that there might be a better use for their magic (even in terms of "how to win a fight") than reducing it to being like a gun (which they also get as starting equipment) that any untrained buffoon could use instead of using it to win the fight by giving themselves a massively unfair advantage, like being completely immune to their opponent's weapon or blinding their opponent or rendering them unable to move. using technology does not detract from the character of a mage. they very specifically use technology for lots of things. thinking magic is superior doesn't mean you want to use it for everything to the exclusion of all else, that's just some absolute nonsense that you pulled out of your ass. a $400,000 luxury car is superior to a $15,000 hatchback, but that doesn't mean I'm going to drive it in a demolition derby, or even that I'm going to want to spend that money on something I intend to use for grocery shopping or taking the kids to school. for mundane crap, the $15,000 car is good enough, and it isn't worth the cost of the luxury car for those uses, no matter how superior it is.

- rifts book of magic is somewhat right: most high level spells are not unbalancingly powerful. then again, some are. and many of the ones that aren't, are balanced by the fact that you can't just spam them out willy-nilly. furthermore, there is absolutely NOTHING about the statement that most spells are not unbalancingly powerful that remotely implies "therefore, we should tweak them". the spells are SUPPOSED to be not unbalancingly powerful. if they actually fit that mold (rather than merely being proclaimed as fitting that mold, which is not the same thing), then FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CHANGE THAT FACT. the spells not being brokenly overpowered is a good thing. that is by design; they are supposed to not break the game. sometimes they do that well, sometimes not so well, but the simple fact is, they at least *try* to not break the game, and one of the key elements in keeping them from doing that is making it hard to spam them by giving them a high PPE cost. I am completely baffled by your desire to remove something that exists to prevent imbalance. balance is broadly speaking a good thing. we *want* the game to be at least somewhat balanced.