Matter Expulsion Strangeness

[Pepsi Jedi]

In general I like the concept of the Matter Expulsion powers. Frankly I think most of them should have been rolled into their respective Alter Physical Structure powers, but having them is nice.

The thing is, they're wildly inconsistent. Now I know no two powers are exactly the same but you generally see themes started, carry over, but not with the Matter Expulsion powers. I'm wondering what others think about it.

The first three we see pop up in Powers Unlimited 1: Crystal. Metal. Stone.

These seem pretty neat. You create and expel a form of matter seemingly out of no where much like Energy Expulsion works. Good concept.

All three have Armor powers. You cover your self with that armor.
All three have Blast/Shoot powers. You can shoot shards/blades/balls of your matter. 1D6 per level damage, for all three
All three have 'encasement' powers which are of less use unless you go 'eeevvvvvvvaaaal' and encase someone's head, but ok.

Now this is where things get a touch strange. Metal and Stone, both have "Create Weapon" where you just grow a weapon made of.. you guessed it, Metal or stone. Crystal... doesn't. Seemingly for no reason. Crystal is a TYPE of stone after all. Now Metal weapons can be 'any' sort of melee weapon. Stone are only bashing for some reason (Kevin doesn't seem to factor in that stone weapons can be as sharp or sharper than steel. Obsidian can be used for surgery if need be) but.... Crystal doesn't get this power, bashing or cutting... and for no reason really explained. The other two get it. Crystal doesn't.

It should also be noted that the armor sections are a touch strange. Metal gives a lot of armor. Stone a bit less. Crystal a bit less SDC... but... Crystal's stat bonuses are strange. +10 to PS, PE, PP, and +40 to spd. Um... why? Now the PS and PE sure, crystal is a type of rock. Stronger and tougher, sure, but why that huge a bonus to PP? This amount (+10 PP) actually exceeds the maximum you would get from the minor power Extraordinary PP. the speed bonus (+40) also exceeds the possible speed bonus in extra ordinary pp which at max only hits 12. I'm not sure why a glimmering crystal encased hero is suddenly as agile as your favorite neighborhood arachnid hero.

Even stranger the Metal armor doesn't give that much bonus to PE, even though it has more sdc. and stone 'does' give the +10 to PE....

Now those inconsistencies are a bit strange. Why doesn't crystal have the ability to make weapons? Why is the stat bumps on crystal so much higher? Why PP and speed bonuses at all?

Then we have the second three.

Matter Expulsion: Bone, Plastic, Wood.

All three can encase themselves in armor of their matter.
All three can manifest weapons but these are a bit varied. Bone can do 'claws and spear' even though.... humans have been making all manner of weapons out of bone, as long as we've been making any tool in the world. Plastic can make 'blunt' weapons. This seems to forget the fact that 100s and 100s of plastic knives and such exist and work perfectly well as piercing weapons. This is complicated because wood can make bashing weapons and stabbing weapons. If you could do it with wood. Why not plastic? Why is bone so limited?
All three have blast/shoot powers. But this is where it gets weird again. Crystal/Metal/Stone all get powers that get 1D6 per level. So at max level are hitting for 15D6 or less as you wish, but Bone Shards... do damage per number of shards. 1-4... and you can "only" shoot 1-4 shards and has a flat damage, topping out at 4D6 for 4 shards. No increase. Ever. Plastic shares this damage and limitation. Wood is similar but for some reason a wooden shard does 1D8, when one of bone does only 1D6 and plastic 'bullets only do 1D6.
All three have similar encasement powers.

But there is a difference in the latter three Matter Expulsion powers.... their 'armor' doesn't give the amazing stat bonuses that Crystal, Metal, and stone do. For some reason encasing yourself in Crystal makes you 10 points stronger, tougher, for reasons beyond comprehension, more agile, and 40 points faster. Metal makes you stronger and tougher, stone makes you stronger and tougher, but these are all left off of Plastic, Bone and wood.

Now, I know the easy answer is 'Powers are different'

But in the case of these 6, they're clearly built on a template, but the inconsistencies are weird. How come all can create weapons except crystal? Wouldn't a crystal sword or hammer be as devastating in battle as the stone? Why does crystal make you a speedster? Why are the latter three clearly half done in comparison to the first three? Lack of armor bonuses seems like a small thing till you notice how much those armor bonus ARE on the first three.. and how come their shooting/blast powers top out at 4D6 while the other three can go up to 15D6 at max level.

Anyone notice this other than me?

Do you modify the last three powers to be more like the first three, as they're all variations on a theme?

Do you change Crystal to lose the +40 speed and PP?

Do you give Crystal the power to form weapons (It clearly SHOULD have)?

[jaymz]

I'd give what MY answer to these issues is but it may get 2-3 warnings for one single post....

[Orin J.]

as far as the created weapon limitation, it seems obvious to me that you're "growing" weapons which is the limitation. you have to work stone to get a sharp edge or to get a usable anything out of crystal, which would usually shatter into bunch of shards while having almost no impact. this seems to be the theme. most of the powers create blunt weapons because they use materials that have to be worked to holed an edge (even plastic needs to be sharpened) and crystal can't make anything because it'd fall apart under it's own weight or just swinging it around.

also having worked with raw crystals (well, tried to) it's fragile. SUPER fragile. if you wanted to make a crystal sword step one would be to fund a crystal many times the size of the sword you wanted and start carving off everything that isn't the sword like making a statue.

[jaymz]

That is the case with ANY material expulsion. You are living material which means it shapes to your will, no carving or otherwise needed. Add almost all give PE and SDC bonuses, and significant ones at that by and large, then your argument of fragility isn't applicable.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If they all had the same stats then they would not have the same Character. And all the player would do is pick which elemental aspect they wanted for their character's powers.

Nothing in real life is exactly the same as the next with just different fur. Embrace the diversity instead of complaining about it.

[jaymz]

it isn't diverse, it's piecemeal half arsed work. They can all have similar traits but still have diversity between them.

[Pepsi Jedi]

as far as the created weapon limitation, it seems obvious to me that you're "growing" weapons which is the limitation. you have to work stone to get a sharp edge or to get a usable anything out of crystal, which would usually shatter into bunch of shards while having almost no impact. this seems to be the theme. most of the powers create blunt weapons because they use materials that have to be worked to holed an edge (even plastic needs to be sharpened) and crystal can't make anything because it'd fall apart under it's own weight or just swinging it around.

also having worked with raw crystals (well, tried to) it's fragile. SUPER fragile. if you wanted to make a crystal sword step one would be to fund a crystal many times the size of the sword you wanted and start carving off everything that isn't the sword like making a statue.

But not all crystals are fragile and the superpower doesn't indicate anything of that nature. It gives you a pretty high AR and nice SDC Bump. (If you look at APS Crystal it's even higher). Indicating the exact opposite. Nor are people with APS metal forming a metal hunk and then refining it and beating it into a bar and then heating it up and forming it into a sword and then letting it cool and then sharpening the sword. They just extend a hand and after a second or two a sword, sharp and whole is grown. Same thing with a stone weapon. They don't start with a hunk of stone and then wack at it with a hammer and chisel and then end up with what ever stone weapon they've conceived. They think it and 'expel' it. (Grow it?) So the argument about it being to make shards and what not to sharpen it, is ignoring the power. You would simply grow the weapon sharp. Just like the metal ones are. Or the 'bone claws' are. Your statment of "most of the powers create blunt weapons because they use materials that have to be worked to holed an edge" (I'm assuming you mean honed into an edge) well so does metal..... but it's allowed cutting edges and hacking weapons. Metal doesn't come out of the ground sharp and shaped like swords. You have to mine it, refine it. Often melt it down, Form it into solid bars. heat it up. Work it. Stretch it. Shape it. Form it. Cool it. Then hone the edge. But the powers don't do any of that.

You can just make weapons out of bone, wood, plastic, stone and metal but... not crystal. It's a clear omission.

Diamonds are crystal. Crystal isn't all weak and stuff as you indicate. (Frankly I'd have Diamond have it's own power but I'm making a point.) A sword made of diamond would be heavy, wicked sharp and a beast in battle.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If they all had the same stats then they would not have the same Character. And all the player would do is pick which elemental aspect they wanted for their character's powers.

Nothing in real life is exactly the same as the next with just different fur. Embrace the diversity instead of complaining about it.

Well. In my OP, I stated the easy, no thinking, blow off answer would be "Powers are different". So I guess... thanks for being that guy? I even stipulated this was the easy way out.

But you're ignoring the point. I'm not asking for them all to have the same stats. I'm pointing out inconsistency with in the own theme sets. Why do 5 out of the 6 get to manifest weapons but not the 6th? Why do three of the 6 give killer bonuses to stats but the other three not? Why would crystal armor give you +40 speed? And 10 Agility, more than extraordinary PP gives as it's entire power?

"Uuuugggg.. different things are different"

While... not 'wrong' doesn't answer the question.

And honestly your reply was insulting. I'm not exactly complaining. (I can.) I'm asking if anyone else noticed the wild inconsistencies and what they do to address them in their games. This isn't about diversity. I wish there were 10 more of these published. But my questions have a point.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is because thematically, the different Matter expulsion Major powers' sub-powers need to fit the 'elemental' type of matter of the power. They all have ''shoot stuff'' ''armored in stuff'', and most of them have ''encase in stuff'' and ''make weapon out of stuff''. That is enough similarity (more so then the APS powers) to make them a grouping/type for a sub-table to roll on. And so similar to put your 'they are not really the same' point to shame. Unlike the APS powers the MEx powers could just ben of been written up with just copy and paste template and then minor changes to the details for a bit of creativity/difference.

Yes, I will agree that they are more different than Energy EX powers.

If everyone only had the same choices, even if different themed, then there would be no need for the chars to research the opponent's powers.

Crystal: when was the last time you saw in the real world a crystal sword or axe?
ME Bone has two bone weapon stuff sub powers...so having the encase in wood dropped is not particularly surprising.
ME wood has two shoot wood stuff sub powers...so having the encase in wood dropped is not particularly surprising.

I do suspect that the writer was trying to mix things up a bit while still having the power levels balance out. Or there was a 'Looming Deadline' coming and the writer had to make up a number of new powers and found a cheat.

[Emerald MoonSilver]

But you're ignoring the point. I'm not asking for them all to have the same stats. I'm pointing out inconsistency with in the own theme sets. Why do 5 out of the 6 get to manifest weapons but not the 6th? Why do three of the 6 give killer bonuses to stats but the other three not? Why would crystal armor give you +40 speed? And 10 Agility, more than extraordinary PP gives as it's entire power?

I never bothered to look at the crystal power, but now I'm getting the idea for a character with both extraordinary PP and crystal expulsion. Combine that with massive damage capacity and immune to high speed kinetic attacks and you have one very nasty character. YOu could even add a third minor power such as physical perfection or iron will to cover all the bases.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It is because thematically, the different Matter expulsion Major powers' sub-powers need to fit the 'elemental' type of matter of the power

Ohhhh so... the theme. right. Can you please tell me why being encased in crystal armor gives you extraordinary Physical Prowess?
Or... why encasing yourself in crystal armor gives you +40 to your speed attribute... thematically?

They all have ''shoot stuff'' ''armored in stuff'', and most of them have ''encase in stuff'' and ''make weapon out of stuff''. That is enough similarity (more so then the APS powers) to make them a grouping/type for a sub-table to roll on.

It is, but it doesn't explain the omissions listed.. Why some get dramatic stat boosts and uncanny speed boosts, why some can make weapons and some can't.

And so similar to put your 'they are not really the same' point to shame. Unlike the APS powers the MEx powers could just ben of been written up with just copy and paste template and then minor changes to the details for a bit of creativity/difference.

Have you read them? The entire description for APS plastic is a single sentence of like 14 words.... They really are cut and pastes, with some changes. But the changes don't make sense.

Yes, I will agree that they are more different than Energy EX powers.

If everyone only had the same choices, even if different themed, then there would be no need for the chars to research the opponent's powers.

"Characters researching the opponent's powers" is not a reason to give Crystal Matter Expulsion +40 speed for no reason, or prevent them from manifesting weapons. If nothing else that's an ooc contrivance.

Crystal: when was the last time you saw in the real world a crystal sword or axe?

About the last time I saw someone manifest any sort of weapon out of thin air, or throw fireballs or optic blasts from their eyes in the real world. Or.. you know ----any----- superpowers in the real world.

ME Bone has two bone weapon stuff sub powers...so having the encase in wood dropped is not particularly surprising

The 'bone' weapon powers are actually strange too. They can create claws or a spear. But the claws do 3D6 damage. More than most melee weapons, but they can't create other weapons. Most will just call it a day and play out Marrow or Wolverine, but theirs is limited in a strange way as well.

ME wood has two shoot wood stuff sub powers...so having the encase in wood dropped is not particularly surprising.

ehh. I suppose. The encase thing is by and large of much less use. But the splinter thing isn't going to be tons of use either, but yeah. ok.

I do suspect that the writer was trying to mix things up a bit while still having the power levels balance out. Or there was a 'Looming Deadline' coming and the writer had to make up a number of new powers and found a cheat.

if the answer is "There was a deadline so the writer just half-assed 3 powers (bone/plastic/wood)" I'd believe it, because compared to the first three they very much seem that way. It would be 'an answer' but one we're unlikely to have confessed to. lol.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I had the the two Stinky books with them in front of me when I wrote my last post.
However,I was looking more at the generalities more than the specific text.

And since you responded to my post line by line. ( Appearing not to have read the post as a whole before posting cause you did. ) The comments you posed for the beginning parts were answered in the later parts.

Maybe I left out a ' 'maybe' ' in the deadline brainstorming bit, but to get a full answer you have to ask Carmen Bellaire exactly what was going on. You will only get ' 'maybes' ' from asking here.

Halfassed.....have you looked at the text in the PB books that has been argued over before?*sardonicism*
(In other words: yah, I understand how sometimes PB writing is ' ' Not the Greatest ' '. )

[ talk about halfassed in the BM book there is one weapon where they called a rocket mortar something stupid by just adding one word. If you are going to write about military hardware you should at least be fluent in what military hardware is described. No need to respond to this bit. Since it is off OP topic. ]

[Orin J.]

I'm asking if anyone else noticed the wild inconsistencies-

yeah, i noticed it's a palladium game. is- is this news to you? they're all like that, every book. it's part of the charm.

what they do to address them in their games.

absolutely nothing. they all work fine, and they don't need to share traits for a sense of completeness i say. i usually end up tweaking powers according to what the player wants for their character regardless. addressing a problem they don't have isn't on my to-do list.

A sword made of diamond would be heavy, wicked sharp and a beast in battle.

a sword made of diamond would be heavy, wickedly sharp, and break after like three hits. crystal is painfully rigid, and cannot withstand impacts without shattering.

[Pepsi Jedi]

*Chuckles* No. I'm not new. I was pointing out an inconsistency in -this- instance.

I tend to fix things as I come across them, but that's me. We all have a lot of time just now so... figured I'd bring it up.

As to the sword breaking. I don't think so. That's like saying "Stone is brittle/soft" because micha is, or Talc, which you can crumble with your hands. It's a pretty safe bet Matter Expulsion Stone people aren't using Talc to make their weapons/armor.

Diamond is a 10 on the mohs scale. And while hardness and toughness are different things, Diamond is pretty tough too. Even with that, we're talking about things created with a super power. (In this instance a sword). In which case, as it's a 'construct' formed by the hero, whom has power over that material, it's conceived that when he makes said material it's sharp and tough. After all Matter Expulsion Crystal's AR is 100% the same as Matter Expulsion Stone's (There is totally argument to be had about Diamond/Sapphire crystals being harder and tougher than stone, but I'm not trying to get into that just here. Just like Tungsten is harder than Silver, but "APS" Metal just gives flat stats)

[Axelmania]

I like how there is a rule against stacking APS powers but not rule against stacking Matter Expulsion powers so in theory I should be able to layer some metal/stone/crystal armor for huge SDC and attribute bonuses.

[Emerald MoonSilver]

I like how there is a rule against stacking APS powers but not rule against stacking Matter Expulsion powers so in theory I should be able to layer some metal/stone/crystal armor for huge SDC and attribute bonuses.

That would work, but if you wanted to maximize sdc or mdc in rifts you could layer crystal armor with the massive damage capacity major power, that way you have enormous sdc / mdc as well as high stats. A tank character with a martial artist's agility.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I like how there is a rule against stacking APS powers but not rule against stacking Matter Expulsion powers so in theory I should be able to layer some metal/stone/crystal armor for huge SDC and attribute bonuses.

That's what GM's are for. To prevent such shenanigans and to hit you with the Hard Cover HU book if you try.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I like how there is a rule against stacking APS powers but not rule against stacking Matter Expulsion powers so in theory I should be able to layer some metal/stone/crystal armor for huge SDC and attribute bonuses.

That's what GM's are for. To prevent such shenanigans and to hit you with the Hard Cover HU book if you try.

sounds sort of like what I was thinking...

[dreicunan]

Perhaps crystal makes you faster, stronger, tougher, and stronger because the crystal armor focuses the akashic memory through your subquantum matrix and let's you bend reality by reversing the polarity of the tachyons.

[fbdaury]

Simplest Answer? Matter Expulsion: Crystal was the first power of the type and was introduced in Mutant Underground. My guess is that Carmen liked the power but wanted to put his own spin on it so he removed the Spd and PP bonuses and then added the melee weapon aspect of the power because he felt it was a valid addition-and since the original power had already seen print previously, he didn't bother changing it.

[jaymz]

That would be typical of most palladium freelancers.

An unwillingness to do the work to ensure consistency within the setting from one book to the next.

[ITWastrel]

What gets me about the ME powers is, the armor, if depleted or destroyed, can be instantly reapplied, good as new and with a full set of SDC.

There is a major power dedicated to armoring up, and that power doesn't provide the protection, buffs, or sustainability, of this sub-ability of ME-Metal/Stone/Crystal/Whatever.

But hey, this is Palladium, not all characters are equal.

[Glistam]

While you're examining these critically, check out "Matter Expulsion: Silver" from Armageddon Unlimited. It adds the ability to instantly create high-S.D.C. walls made of silver.

[Borast]

While you're examining these critically, check out "Matter Expulsion: Silver" from Armageddon Unlimited. It adds the ability to instantly create high-S.D.C. walls made of silver.

Don't remember that one...
That being said...hopefully the silver doesn't stick around (or is "taken" from existing silver stores...).

[Pepsi Jedi]

While you're examining these critically, check out "Matter Expulsion: Silver" from Armageddon Unlimited. It adds the ability to instantly create high-S.D.C. walls made of silver.

Don't remember that one...
That being said...hopefully the silver doesn't stick around (or is "taken" from existing silver stores...).

Fades away after duration. Duration is 3minutes per level of experience. You can't just create a 5X5X2 hunk of silver, cut it into bars and get rich.

[Borast]

Fades away after duration. Duration is 3minutes per level of experience. You can't just create a 5X5X2 hunk of silver, cut it into bars and get rich.

Depends... How fast can you run?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Fades away after duration. Duration is 3minutes per level of experience. You can't just create a 5X5X2 hunk of silver, cut it into bars and get rich.

Depends... How fast can you run?

Doubtful that if you created it IN a pawn shop, would it be verified, weighed, contracts filled out and paid before that duration wears off. lol

[fbdaury]

Better Idea: How much does a 5ft x 5ft x 2ft section of silver weigh? No where in the create wall section does it specify it MUST be made on the ground, instead of, say, 8ft in the air (for 2nd level character), above the head of a werewolf or other silver vulnerable creature - and how much damage would they take when that came down on them? 1 melee action to create = normal attack, and little to no warning for target to move before gravity takes hold.

[Kraynic]

Better Idea: How much does a 5ft x 5ft x 2ft section of silver weigh? No where in the create wall section does it specify it MUST be made on the ground, instead of, say, 8ft in the air (for 2nd level character), above the head of a werewolf or other silver vulnerable creature - and how much damage would they take when that came down on them? 1 melee action to create = normal attack, and little to no warning for target to move before gravity takes hold.

I haven't touched HU in a very long time, and have stuck with the Fantasy game, but this is the same sort of thing that comes up there. "What if I just create a half dozen walls of stone laying horizontally about 15' above their head?" I generally require that the wall is actually anchored to something solid. However, if a player really wants to do things like this, I can certainly allow it. Well, with the understanding that they may have their character summarily crushed with no way to avoid it in the future. Basically, the world will eventually adapt any tactics the PCs use, so don't start/use a tactic that you (or your teammates) will get wrecked by as well.

If you really want to run with it, a quick google search brought up this calculator: https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/vol ... nce/silver

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah it ties into the sniper conundrum.

Sooner or later people figure out that a lot of RP Hassle can be dodged by sniping enemies from far off. In rifts it's even more effective. Lasers have no kick. You can't see the beam, are silent and have (Nearly) The best range in the game. You can snipe people from almost a half mile away at the same difficulty of hitting them 20 feet away. Sooner or later groups do the math on this and figure they can just hide way back. Snipe bad guys, then once they're all dead, go in and collect the loot. (Or some variation of the above) Thing is... it's pretty effective with out getting very contrived about bad guys acting so paranoid and silly to avoid this exact tactic. You can do it, but then it becomes "The bad guy never steps out of his foritified bunker unless fully kitted up in MDC Armor including helmet, etc etc etc. Which... just looks contrived on the face of it. Throws a monkeyrench into Games, but it's hard to tell them 'no' because... it actually is a smart thing to do (At times)

Thing is a group will get stuck on it and use it as a go to.

But the first time you roll one die. Check your notes and then look at Player A who's been sniping the bad guys for three sessions and go "Ok your PC is dead. did you want to roll up a new one as the game goes on?" They will FREAK out.

"What do you mean my char is dead?"

"He's dead"

"But how?"

"You don't know"

Other players in the group "What did we see?"

"Well Player A was standing there. Then his head was gone"

"did we hear anything?"

"Nope." *Rolls a second die* Player B, you might want to share the book with Player A, your char's dead too"

"WHAT???"

*The other three (Or how ever many chars) likely wisen up at this point and go for cover, but lasers have no beam and when a MDC rifle blast hits an unarmored head it just vaporizes. There's no way to check the direction of incoming fire. So.... depending on where they took cover they can keep getting popped off.

But.... PC groups really, REALLY hate it when they have a living breathing character one second, then are told to create a new character the second because someone sniped on to THEM as they sniped on to Others.

Thing is this doesn't always 'cure' them of the tactic. It usually can be counted on to **** them off pretty bad though. Some players will up and leave.


So .. all that said.. the power is... shall we say... not fully thought out in a number of ways.
Just as it doesn't stipulate the wall is on the ground. (If it's not on the ground isn't it just a very huge and thick 'bar' of silver?) it doesn't say the range it can be created at. Most powers of this nature do.

Now.. not stipulating "You can't create a wall of silver 50 feet in the air" may not be something that a power would need to be complete.

How far away you can create the wall is.

Either way it's going to be indefinitely easier for the GM to just go "Walls are on the ground fella's other wise it's a flying(Falling) 5X5X2 bar of silver.
Just like the GM is going to have to glance at a few more powers that create walls (Such as some of the earthen powers) to get a range on how far away you can create them.

Cuz if they're thinking about dropping walls on people they conjure instantly out of he air. Won't be long before they're manifesting them infront of plane cockpits, or jet engines to Airforce 1 or something.

[Borast]

True... Had a group that LOVED the fact that a damaged rifle can explode...and vaporise the user.
Until it happened to them...leaving one PC's feet still in his boots, and nothing else left.

[Sir_Spirit]

What gets me about the ME powers is, the armor, if depleted or destroyed, can be instantly reapplied, good as new and with a full set of SDC.

No it can't. The armor in PU1 doesn't have stats.
Having it on gives you bonuses, including HP and SDC bonuses, to YOUR stats.
At least the STONE/META/?CRYSTAL ones work that way, I think the others[in PU3] changed it so you do have armor.

OTOH for those later ones we already have rules for armor regeneration, see Bio-armor.

As for ME:Silver's walls. I would rule that a wall is vertical, a floor or ceiling is horizontal, which the rules don't let you make, only walls.

[Sir_Spirit]

Yeah it ties into the sniper conundrum.

Sooner or later people figure out that a lot of RP Hassle can be dodged by sniping enemies from far off. In rifts it's even more effective. Lasers have no kick. You can't see the beam, are silent and have (Nearly) The best range in the game. Y.

This is myth, Lasers powerful enough to kill a human would boil/evaporate the water in the body part they hit and it would explode noisily.
The air is also filled with impurities/water vapor that any laser that powerful would brightly incinerate, leaving a noticable trail.

[Borast]

Yeah it ties into the sniper conundrum.

Sooner or later people figure out that a lot of RP Hassle can be dodged by sniping enemies from far off. In rifts it's even more effective. Lasers have no kick. You can't see the beam, are silent and have (Nearly) The best range in the game. Y.

True...however, in order to BE a sniper, you have to lay in wait for anywhere from hours to days...and that is presuming you have been able to perform enough research to reasonably know where your chosen target will, or is likely to, be...and that only works in areas where you have long sightlines. Plus, sniping can only be used with single shot settings.

In any case, yes, lasers have no recoil.
Incorrect, you *can* see the beam (unless you're talking about a MASER or GRASER). Outside of a vacuum, a laser beam *is* visible. Check-out a flashlight at night. You can SEE the cone of light being emitted. Even if the shot lasts a millisecond, the "after image" from passing through the air will last several seconds. Ever notice how a lighting strike seems to last several seconds after it flashes? Same principle.
RIFTS lasers are only silent if you turn-off the unit that vibrates the weapon...read the flavour text!
As for range...that I can remember, the best laser range is about 900 metres. The typical rail gun still has a range of twice that.

Besides, discounting the anti-armour rifle from SA... The best RIFTS sniper weapon I can remember is still the NE-75H...with a range over 2.7 kilometres, and doing 100MDC on a maximum hit. (Average 70MDC per shot.) If you`re using the optional knockdown rules, it`s also a kinetic/explosive hit, given the bullet is energetic plasma. (And 70MDC to the head is going to knock down the average trooper in PA...and likely will even KO/stun them if the helmet survives!) The headache (3HP damage to a "squishie") is more for flavour...

[Borast]

Diamonds are crystal. Crystal isn't all weak and stuff as you indicate. (Frankly I'd have Diamond have it's own power but I'm making a point.) A sword made of diamond would be heavy, wicked sharp and a beast in battle.

Yes they are crystals.
Crystals very much are fragile.
Were you able to find a large enough crystal to cut into a sword, it would also be extremely fragile compared to a metal sword. If you've ever seen Forged in Fire, swords FLEX on impact, sometimes almost terrifyingly so! The reason a macuahuitl works, and is one of the more devastating weapons against "soft" targets, is because the majority of the weapon is wood, which will absorb the kinetic energy of the impact...and that the edge of the obsidian is scary sharp!

For an example of would a diamond sword survive... Here's a gemologist and a hammer...you will note he is not swinging for the fences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HkrEImbTw

If you want to cut with diamond, remember, industrial diamonds are ground to grit before being glued blades / wheels/ belts /etc. for cutting.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Crystals are Hard.....however, because they are Hard, that also means they are Brittle.
( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brittle )

That is why a fine/small crystal is optimal for blades. There are more 'gaps' between the crystals to allow the metal crystals to move about, so the metal (as a whole) is allowed to flex without deforming or breaking.

Which is why the carbon crystal matrix generally called a diamond will fracture when hit by a steel blade alone set 'grain' lines in the stone.

[ITWastrel]

What gets me about the ME powers is, the armor, if depleted or destroyed, can be instantly reapplied, good as new and with a full set of SDC.

No it can't. The armor in PU1 doesn't have stats.
Having it on gives you bonuses, including HP and SDC bonuses, to YOUR stats.
At least the STONE/META/?CRYSTAL ones work that way, I think the others[in PU3] changed it so you do have armor.

OTOH for those later ones we already have rules for armor regeneration, see Bio-armor.

As for ME:Silver's walls. I would rule that a wall is vertical, a floor or ceiling is horizontal, which the rules don't let you make, only walls.

This is incorrect, the PU-1 entries for ME powers state:

1. Crystal Armor: Can cover oneself with a flexible, transparent crystal coating that functions like a suit of armor.
Works only on the super being himself.
Natural Crystal Armor A R.: 15; any attack equal to
or below 15 does no damage. Plus the crystal diffuses
light and laser beams so they inflict only one third their
normal damage.
Provides its creatorlwearer with enhanced abilities
and bonuses as follows: +10 to P.S., P.P. and P.E. attributes, +40 to Speed attribute, +10 to Hit Points, +120
to S.D.C., +3 to strike, parry and dodge, and +4 to damage.

Listed as armor, with AR, SDC, and bonuses.

Once depleted, there is nothing that says the armor cannot be immediately reapplied, with full effect.

If the bonuses were not a part of the armor sub-power, such as blanket bonuses you always got, and the SDC/AR/HP were part of that bonus set, then I would agree. The idea that to Whom the bonus applies is incorrect as well. The power creates an armor. That armor gives you bonuses.

Provides its creatorlwearer with enhanced abilities

The power does not directly give YOU that bonus, it is applied while you wear the armor, hence the physical manifestation needed to get that bonus.

One must assume that the ability to apply (and dismiss) the ability by summoning a skin of metal/crystal/stone/jellyfish/whatever will create a new, undamaged coating, and thus have full SDC. Otherwise, the rules for regenerating SDC would have been included in the ability description, following precedent from numerous other powers.

If this were a persistent effect, such as SDC from an APS power, invulnerability, or the actual armor superpower (with specific rules and notes about it's damage carry over) I would agree with you. Here, though, the argument is almost silly. You wouldn't argue that a mage re-upping his Armor of Ithan wouldn't get full SDC, would you?
Or if you summon a new demon, would it be hurt like the last poor bastard you called?

To argue the new armor would carry over damage from the old set would be the same argument that a summoned armor/creature/wall/object would carry over damage from the last summoned wall/critter/object you called up.


These abilities are poorly written, and much like most Palladium content are rife with game-crushing exploitability. I'm not arguing that the ability doesn't need nerfed, and into the ground, but RAW, this power grants infinite SDC, and an infinitely replaceable 20HP as well.

Though, WHY does it give HP? From an armor? With +10 PP and ninja reaction speed bonuses? Makes no sense.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The Speed increase is becasuse crystal is smooth and channels energy into the wearer. At least that is my interpretation. As far as the sword thing, I would negotiate with the GM to drop abilities you don't want in favor of being able to generate the sword. There are enough examples of crystal swords in cartoons, comics and video games to make a compeling argument for them to be part of the power.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah it ties into the sniper conundrum.

Sooner or later people figure out that a lot of RP Hassle can be dodged by sniping enemies from far off. In rifts it's even more effective. Lasers have no kick. You can't see the beam, are silent and have (Nearly) The best range in the game. Y.

This is myth, Lasers powerful enough to kill a human would boil/evaporate the water in the body part they hit and it would explode noisily.
The air is also filled with impurities/water vapor that any laser that powerful would brightly incinerate, leaving a noticable trail.

Not in Rift's it's not. The books specifically state that RIFTS Lasers have no kick, and are silent, making no more sound than the pull of the trigger. It goes into it, in such depth that they stipulate that many laser weapons have fake 'Sound generators' to make pew pew pew sounds, because many troops want the sound that they 'expect' vs the reality that is the silent discharge.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah it ties into the sniper conundrum.

Sooner or later people figure out that a lot of RP Hassle can be dodged by sniping enemies from far off. In rifts it's even more effective. Lasers have no kick. You can't see the beam, are silent and have (Nearly) The best range in the game. Y.

True...however, in order to BE a sniper, you have to lay in wait for anywhere from hours to days...

You don't have to. You just have to be there and aiming at your target. Now the sterotypical image of a sniper is one waiting for days to line up a shot but one could just as easily be watching TV till they get a phone call that the car is coming. Pick up their weapon. Walk to a window. Wait a few seconds for their target to get out of the car and fire. Or.. walk out of a building and fire, etc etc etc.

Bad guys can expect good guys to show up and just hire one to watch the approach and blow the brains out of anyone they don't know.

and that is presuming you have been able to perform enough research to reasonably know where your chosen target will, or is likely to, be...and that only works in areas where you have long sightlines. Plus, sniping can only be used with single shot settings.

You can snipe someone from across a street. You need a 'sightline' kinda sorta. In that you need to have someone in range of your weapon. But in Rifts, you can just shoot them through 90% of material on the planet. lol. In HU, yes they tend to have to step out where you can hit them, but still you can snipe someone from a few dozen feet away. It just negates much of the point.

In any case, yes, lasers have no recoil.
Incorrect, you *can* see the beam (unless you're talking about a MASER or GRASER). Outside of a vacuum, a laser beam *is* visible.

Not the kind that comes out of a laser rifle. It's not a continuous beam. It's a split second "Pew". Not a long Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew. It's moving at the speed of light.

Check-out a flashlight at night. You can SEE the cone of light being emitted.

A flash light is not a laser.

Take a laser pointer out at night. click the button for a fraction of a second. Did you see the beam? nope. You might have seen the dot where it terminated but you're not witnessing the beam go from your hand to the target.

Take your laser pointer out in the day. Wave it around. You're not seeing anything except MAYBE the end point. But even that, is a continuous beam. Not one that comes out in a split second.

Even if the shot lasts a millisecond, the "after image" from passing through the air will last several seconds.

*Picks up the laser pointer he uses to play with the cats. Clicks it a dozen times* Nope. Doesn't work that way.

Ever notice how a lighting strike seems to last several seconds after it flashes? Same principle

Pick up a $3 laser pointer from walmart. They have them in the cat section. Try it for yourself. They don't work that way. The only time you're getting an after image is if you shoot yourself in the eye.

RIFTS lasers are only silent if you turn-off the unit that vibrates the weapon...read the flavour text!

Nope. They only make noise if you're an idiot, purposefully purchased a gun that has a sound maker and turn ON the sound maker. And it's.... assumed.. that if you're sniping someone... You probably aren't reveling in the pew pew pew sounds of battle and you make double sure if your dumb weapon HAS a pew pew pew sound maker, it's off. (And likely broken to STAY off)

As for range...that I can remember, the best laser range is about 900 metres. The typical rail gun still has a range of twice that.

Railguns roar. (I.E. make a very very loud sound when they fire) Kick like mules, you usually need power armor or enhanced strength to shoot one, and they're heavy.

But yes, some have better ranges. I was speaking of Energy weapons. Usually lasers have longer range than Ion, Plasma, or PBeams, in Palladium.

Besides, discounting the anti-armour rifle from SA... The best RIFTS sniper weapon I can remember is still the NE-75H...with a range over 2.7 kilometres, and doing 100MDC on a maximum hit. (Average 70MDC per shot.) If you`re using the optional knockdown rules, it`s also a kinetic/explosive hit, given the bullet is energetic plasma. (And 70MDC to the head is going to knock down the average trooper in PA...and likely will even KO/stun them if the helmet survives!) The headache (3HP damage to a "squishie") is more for flavour...

If you're sniping in rifts, chances are you're aiming at a soft target. I.E. SDC being, out of armor. You wait for the target to take off his helmet to eat, or his armor to pee or poop, you target the fleshy bit and you click your silent laser and vaporize them. People love to say they just don't take off their armor. but you can't stay in it forever. Gotta eat. Gotta eliminate. when you do, there's soft bits exposed. gotta bathe or your skin's going to start rotting off. etc etc etc

Sniping 'hard targets' in Rifts just doesn't work. The GI Joe rule counts it out if they have on armor. If they're MDC beings to start with, then you have to wittle down all their MDC for a One Shot Kill.

That's just the mechanics of the game. They're purposefully built to prevent one shot kills most of the time. The only time it works is using a MD weapon on an SDC Target. In HU it's going to be tough to find a gun that can consistently one shot a foe. (Well the paper boy or a little girl playing hopscotch sure, but a villain or hero, very unlikely. You have to go all the way through their SDC then Hit points to do it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

What gets me about the ME powers is, the armor, if depleted or destroyed, can be instantly reapplied, good as new and with a full set of SDC.

No it can't. The armor in PU1 doesn't have stats.
Having it on gives you bonuses, including HP and SDC bonuses, to YOUR stats.
At least the STONE/META/?CRYSTAL ones work that way, I think the others[in PU3] changed it so you do have armor.

OTOH for those later ones we already have rules for armor regeneration, see Bio-armor.

As for ME:Silver's walls. I would rule that a wall is vertical, a floor or ceiling is horizontal, which the rules don't let you make, only walls.

This isn't true at all. Via the Matter expulsion power
"Crystal armor" is one of the sub powers. It states clearly you can cover yourself in crystal armor. It has an AR of 15., any attack below 15 does no damage. Then in the second paragraph it says it provides +10 hit points and +120 SDC.

So yes, as twinky as it is you can use the armor. Take 110 points of SDC damage.
Turn it off with an action.
Turn it BACK on with an action and have it be 120SDC again.

ME Metal and ME stone are the same way. There is no mention what so ever about regeneration of your armor.

It's a loop hole. As the powers aren't very well described but they didn't make it up.

I see what you're saying it doesn't dictate "The armor ALONE has an SDC of ____" but in that vein, it also does not stipulate it has to heal. It's simply a power you can turn on and turn off.

If you turn it on and it gives you +120SDC, you take damage till it's almost gone, you turn it off and turn it back onn. Click click and you're back to full. There's not even anything about it taking a melee action to do. (I'd make it take one to turn on and off, but that's me) it could be argued it's instant and doesn't cost anything, because the OTHER powers clearly DO state that they take actions to do.

it's twinky, but it's not imagined. As written you could easily do such a thing.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Crystals are Hard.....however, because they are Hard, that also means they are Brittle.
( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brittle )

That is why a fine/small crystal is optimal for blades. There are more 'gaps' between the crystals to allow the metal crystals to move about, so the metal (as a whole) is allowed to flex without deforming or breaking.

Which is why the carbon crystal matrix generally called a diamond will fracture when hit by a steel blade alone set 'grain' lines in the stone.

They don't have to be. Steel can be hard and not brittle. The benifit of steel over stone is weight.

A diamond is hard and tough. If you can make one via a super power, again you're not making weak stuff. You're making strong stuff. Look up to my point about APS Stone. When you use APS stone you're not making yourself out of Talc or something. It's hard stone. If you use APS Metal you're not making yourself out of a soft metal. (Gold, etc) It's a 'hard' metal and makes you very tough. Same for Matter Expulsion. if Matter expulsion stone can make stone weapons..... and they're not 'brittle' and shatter at any old contact then crystal would be the same. The 'stuff' made by superpowers is strong because it's made by superpowers.

I mean I suppose you could purposefully choose YOUR APS or ME to be of a weaker material than the generic listed, but that's a flavor thing, not a default setting.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Personally I think the Matter Expulsion powers need to be modified to have the armor unavailable for a length of time after it is destroyed or takes damage to allow it to be regenerated similar to APS powers.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Personally I think the Matter Expulsion powers need to be modified to have the armor unavailable for a length of time after it is destroyed or takes damage to allow it to be regenerated similar to APS powers.

I don't disagree with you what so ever.

I'm just pointing out RAW. Which is another 'strangeness' to them.

They're just badly written.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Personally I think the Matter Expulsion powers need to be modified to have the armor unavailable for a length of time after it is destroyed or takes damage to allow it to be regenerated similar to APS powers.

I don't disagree with you what so ever.

I'm just pointing out RAW. Which is another 'strangeness' to them.

They're just badly written.

I know. I'm just thinking out loud some of the possible solutions.

[fbdaury]

Personally I think the Matter Expulsion powers need to be modified to have the armor unavailable for a length of time after it is destroyed or takes damage to allow it to be regenerated similar to APS powers.

I don't disagree with you what so ever.

I'm just pointing out RAW. Which is another 'strangeness' to them.

They're just badly written.

But, the main issue isn't the writing - it's the editing, as in, there is none. One competent line editor would remove most of the issues with PB Books. But that's a different argument.

[Stone Gargoyle]

But, the main issue isn't the writing - it's the editing, as in, there is none. One competent line editor would remove most of the issues with PB Books. But that's a different argument.

Yeah, man, don't even get me started on that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

They don't have to be. Steel can be hard and not brittle. The benifit of steel over stone is weight.

A diamond is hard and tough.

Sorry and Sorry you are incorrect in both.

Hardened steel is brittle. Not as brittle as crystals, but brittle. Which is why you need to temper the steel after it's quenched.

Diamonds are carbon crystals and are more brittle than crystals of other minerals.

In other words... in the real world the harder the material is, the more brittle it is.

----
trivia..

Spoiler:

In a fire, diamonds will burn up (consumed by the fire) while rubies and sapphires and quartz crystals will not burn up.

The Crystal Glassware is not crystal but a form of glass.

[Borast]

Incorrect, you *can* see the beam (unless you're talking about a MASER or GRASER). Outside of a vacuum, a laser beam *is* visible.

Not the kind that comes out of a laser rifle. It's not a continuous beam. It's a split second "Pew". Not a long Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew. It's moving at the speed of light.

Check-out a flashlight at night. You can SEE the cone of light being emitted.

A flash light is not a laser.

Take a laser pointer out at night. click the button for a fraction of a second. Did you see the beam? nope. You might have seen the dot where it terminated but you're not witnessing the beam go from your hand to the target.

And a laser pointer is not a high-powered combat laser...
Think about it...why can you see a flashlight beam, in addition to whatever it is illuminating? It steps quite nice into the next one...

Even if the shot lasts a millisecond, the "after image" from passing through the air will last several seconds.

*Picks up the laser pointer he uses to play with the cats. Clicks it a dozen times* Nope. Doesn't work that way.

Ever notice how a lighting strike seems to last several seconds after it flashes? Same principle

Pick up a $3 laser pointer from walmart. They have them in the cat section. Try it for yourself. They don't work that way. The only time you're getting an after image is if you shoot yourself in the eye.

Actually, they do work that way. Your pointer from garbageworld is not ionizing the air, water molocules, and vapourizing dust particles. Like a lightning bolt (remember, each pulse lasts a fraction of a second, but the plasma tube the electrical energy creates passing through the air, luminesces for several seconds...long enough for subsequent pulses of energy down the established conduit to re-energize, making it seem to "flicker"), the combat laser creates a line of highly energized molocules, which will "slowly" release that energy to return to a similar energy state as the rest of the air...in otherwords, it glows. Add in the (admittedly slight) defocusing that happens as your combat laser passes through the air, and you have a visible flare of energy pointing back towards the firing party.Now, unless one of the targets has REALLY good eye sight, and is looking in the right direction, it will still be several shotsbefore they know what direction you're shooting from...unless they care to triangulate from tthe suddenly appearing scortches and holes!

RIFTS lasers are only silent if you turn-off the unit that vibrates the weapon...read the flavour text!

Nope. They only make noise if you're an idiot, purposefully purchased a gun that has a sound maker and turn ON the sound maker. And it's.... assumed.. that if you're sniping someone... You probably aren't reveling in the pew pew pew sounds of battle and you make double sure if your dumb weapon HAS a pew pew pew sound maker, it's off. (And likely broken to STAY off)

I never said anything about the shooter having to leave it turned on...but it comes that way by default...and in your scenario, even if the shooter is more than 15m, the targets will likely never hear the shots over ambient city noise.

As for range...that I can remember, the best laser range is about 900 metres. The typical rail gun still has a range of twice that.

Railguns roar. (I.E. make a very very loud sound when they fire) Kick like mules, you usually need power armor or enhanced strength to shoot one, and they're heavy.

I never said they didn't have...shall we say... Disadvantages?
However, while they sometimes have flash supressers come with standard (the Russian Dragunov SVU comes to mind), but not too often with a silencer. After all, who cares if it roars, when the shell has to fly for 5-10 seconds before impact while traavelling at 2-3 times faster than the bang? 2-3 shots, then you bug-out (stealthily) before they hear the shots!
Besides, the M107 weighs more than 3 times the weight of an average battle rifle...which, yes is like a paper cup versus a full glass office cooler water jug, but still...

But yes, some have better ranges. I was speaking of Energy weapons. Usually lasers have longer range than Ion, Plasma, or PBeams, in Palladium.
>SNIP<
If you're sniping in rifts, chances are you're aiming at a soft target. I.E. SDC being, out of armor. You wait for the target to take off his helmet to eat, or his armor to pee or poop, you target the fleshy bit and you click your silent laser and vaporize them. People love to say they just don't take off their armor. but you can't stay in it forever. Gotta eat. Gotta eliminate. when you do, there's soft bits exposed. gotta bathe or your skin's going to start rotting off. etc etc etc

Rail Guns are classed as Heavy Energy Weapons... But still, you have a point.
I almost derailed an HLS back in the day...the main bad guy was speachifying trying to rile people up against us... I made a called shot to his unprotected head with my laser pistol. Annoyed the GM a bit with that, whot?

[Stone Gargoyle]

https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2013/02/14 ... -the-side/

How bright is a laser beam when viewed from the side?
Category: Space Published: February 14, 2013

While traveling through the vacuum of space, laser beams are invisible unless shot directly into your eye. The experience you know of as vision consists of light entering your eyes and being detecting by cells on your retinas. You can't see any light that never enters your eyes. A beam of light, including laser light, will not enter your eye unless aimed directly at it or reflected directly into it by an object. The vacuum of space does not have anything to reflect the light back into your eye. Only by adding air, dust, or debris does a light beam become visible from the side. This should be obvious to anyone that has every used a flashlight. The objects that reflect the light from your flashlight are visible, but the beam itself traversing through clean empty air is not. Laser beams are no different from flashlights in this regard. Anyone who has every used a laser pointer to give a presentation can attest to this fact. When a movie hero shoots laser beams from his spaceship, none of these beams should be visible as they travel. I believe entertainment producers get this principle wrong on purpose for dramatic effect. It's much more dramatic to see a flash of light shoot out of a gun than nothing visible shoot out.