Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punches

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Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punches

Unread post by Axelmania »

WB10 (Juicer Uprising) pg 34
    If the Titan punches mega-damage structured barehanded, he will suffer one SDC point of damage for every MD point it inflicts.

RUE 285 (Augmented Strength) gives the option of spending 2 attacks to do a power punch that inflicts MD for crazies and all the juicers who don't have SNPS like the Titan/Mega.

This starts at PS24 (so I assume PS23 or less you can't do MD on a power punch) which is an expansion from the original Conversion Book (page 25) which required a minimum PS of 35 from Augmented to do 1 MD on a power punch.

I can see it post-RUE it is present on page 9 of the revised Conversion Book published in 2017, not sure if it's also in the 2002 original print of RCB prior to RUE in 2005 though. Anyone know?

Anyway what I was wondering is... if a Titan Juicer doing a 1 MD punch has to take 1 SDC, wouldn't it be fair that any other SDC beings punching MDC targets barehanded ought to follow the same rule and also take whatever MD they inflict as SDC?

I realize that this would be a house rule since it doesn't explicitly say to do this, but back when the Titan Juicer was written up the idea of other SDC beings doing MD was pretty niche (kinda hard to get a PS of 35 even as a juicer) so Carella might not have thought of that when coming up with the rule, to make a note that it should also retroactively apply to other juicers doing a power punch.

I bring up the Hyperion since while they may not have a PS of 24 to inflict a power-punch, per pg 31 of WB10 they can always do a 1D6 MD power kick.

The rule is likely not to apply since they'll probably be wearing boots like the cutie in Vince Martin's picture, but in the rare situation they need to do MD to an MDC structure with their bare feet, making them suffer SDC damage equal to that only seems fair to the Titan Juicer...

Other situations that come to mind from the original conversion book:

1) pg 42 the Ancient Master gets MD power punch / power kick yet only turns MDC when using their "positive energy" variant which just slaps 70 MDC on them instead of usual effects (very weird). I like the idea of having MD hits normally hurt them (like Titans) to give them incentive to use positive energy to avoid damage. Makes me wonder if/how damage done to that 70 transfers over... or how long it takes to regain. Like assuming it heals at 2D6 MDC per day (baseline rate when we're not told) would it be healing when Positive Energy is turned off, or would the heal-counter only be going during times they kept it on?

2) pg 49 taking Iron Hand or Kick Practise or Tamashiwara will bestow an MD punch or MD kick without giving MDC, if you don't gain MDC from some other body hardening power maybe you should take SDC from attacking with these without glove/boot?

and the revised one:

3) pg 45 "Extraordinary PS" gives augmented strength like a juicer so you could do MD power punches while remaining SDC if you lacked other powers to give it to you

4) pg 45 "Power Channeling" allows MD attacks as well

5) pg 45 "Superhuman PS" gives robotic strength so you could do MD punches on a tier below supernatural (some have posited maybe it might make sense to retroactively downgrade Titan Juicers to this, for concept's sake... I kinda agree)

6) pg 51 "Supernatural Strength" seems to mirror the titan situation: doesn't turn you MDC but now you can inflict crazy amounts of it. Shouldn't it make sense to have such a hero harming themselves with each punch if they lack protection?
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I'll bite...Thou you probably are posting this to start an argument.

Titan Jucier PS vs superpower PS.
The super ability is the SNPS that is just like the Mega Juicer...it is para-normal in nature.
Where as the Titan juicer's PS is mundane super augmented PS that matches the raw str. of the paranormal SNPS.

Because the TJ's PS is mundane in nature the TJ does not have any of the protections that come with the paranormal SNPS of the super ability or that SNPS from being a super natural being or a Creature of Magic.

➢Yes, I know most players hate this explanation because it requires them to actually accept the class defining text that are "Words" that tell the meaning of the stat-blocks, instead of just going by the Stat-blocks.
➣Yes, some players will dismiss the Defining Text as just ' 'Flavor Text' ' and ignore them. To them I would ask "Where in any of the PB game books does the rule say to ignore the defining text as something to be ignored?" Until that text is presented and confirmed, the defining text is a part of the canon rules for that class/race/MOS.
-----------
#3 nope the EX PS conversion is not on page 45 of the original RBC1. Page 44. And the RCB1 bumps EXPS up to SNPS, which was introduced as we know it now in the original RCB1. Of course the RCB1 is converting the HU1r to rifts Which didn't have SHPS nor SNPS, and not from the HU2 game.

Now the RCB1r the EXPS is on page 45, and doesn't do much other than restating the HU2 text, with commentary that that the super ability is approximately the same as augmented humanoids & bionics str.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

Drew I was wondering, since you didn't address the idea of the other SDC juicers (Hyperion/Delphi/Normal) taking damage when doing MD to MDC unprotected, does that mean you like it?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Titan Jucier PS vs superpower PS.
The super ability is the SNPS that is just like the Mega Juicer...it is para-normal in nature.
Where as the Titan juicer's PS is mundane super augmented PS that matches the raw str. of the paranormal SNPS.


The Mega Juicer is MDC though, so he might very well follow the Titan precedent of "take 1 SDC for every 1 MD you inflict" guideline for Titans, but it just wouldn't come up since he's not likely to inflict 100 MD in one punch.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Because the TJ's PS is mundane in nature the TJ does not have any of the protections that come with the paranormal SNPS of the super ability or that SNPS from being a super natural being or a Creature of Magic.

Do you believe these paranormal protections also apply to the minor super versions (extraordinary/superhuman)?

Also: since Physical Training can give these versions, do they also enjoy paranormal protection?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:➢Yes, I know most players hate this explanation because it requires them to actually accept the class defining text that are "Words" that tell the meaning of the stat-blocks, instead of just going by the Stat-blocks.

By class-defining text are you referring to the description of Titan Juicers?

One reason I'm wondering about this is because I think some the HU category of Experiment might be intended as analagous with Juicers/Crazies. Pg 118 for example has "Other Options" for adapting the juicer/crazy.

The main difference I guess is that if you use "Negate Super Abilities" on an experiment he'll lose his Augmented/Robotic strength while NSA won't do anything to juicers.

But then I guess we have the "Alien" category where it can't be negated, so maybe it's more natural and less paranormal?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:➣Yes, some players will dismiss the Defining Text as just ' 'Flavor Text' ' and ignore them. To them I would ask "Where in any of the PB game books does the rule say to ignore the defining text as something to be ignored?" Until that text is presented and confirmed, the defining text is a part of the canon rules for that class/race/MOS.

I'm kinda lost as to what it refers to.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:#3 nope the EX PS conversion is not on page 45 of the original RBC1. Page 44.

Touche, typo :)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And the RCB1 bumps EXPS up to SNPS, which was introduced as we know it now in the original RCB1.
Of course the RCB1 is converting the HU1r to rifts Which didn't have SHPS nor SNPS, and not from the HU2 game.

Yeah, that's I guess why we didn't get a stab at that until Skraypers adapted the HU2 content.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Now the RCB1r the EXPS is on page 45, and doesn't do much other than restating the HU2 text, with commentary that that the super ability is approximately the same as augmented humanoids & bionics str.

and assigning robotic to superhuman

of course there's still the age-old problem of SH being better than Ex in every way =/
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Class Defining Text....all those paragraphs that are printed in before the class' stat-blocks that tell "the idea" the class is built around.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by dreicunan »

In the rare circumstances that it would come up,it would he a reasonable house rule for other non-MDC beings doing MDC with their bare hands to take damage in SDC.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Class Defining Text....all those paragraphs that are printed in before the class' stat-blocks that tell "the idea" the class is built around.

Right... but given the whole "bones reinforced by nano-metals" (paraphrasing) I don't think Titan Juicers are meant to be more vulnerable than other ones, so it would be strange if they could punch themselves to death with MD punches but other juicers (with less SDC, no nano-metals) could not do so
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Class Defining Text....all those paragraphs that are printed in before the class' stat-blocks that tell "the idea" the class is built around.

Right... but given the whole "bones reinforced by nano-metals" (paraphrasing) I don't think Titan Juicers are meant to be more vulnerable than other ones, so it would be strange if they could punch themselves to death with MD punches but other juicers (with less SDC, no nano-metals) could not do so

Now I will let you analyze how your statement is missing one little bit of reality that would keep the TJ from punching himself to death by punching a MDC bare-handed to do MD to it.
(of course this little bit of a codrile is well know to be ..why do TJs wear gauntlets when they are punching MDC stuff to do damage to it?)

And you are drifting off the subject of why they would take damage when punching MDC stuff opposed to the chars with para-normal...true... SNPS do not.

Actual actionable information in the Class Defining Text.....yes there is such information in the text.

That is besides answering the question 'why to TJ's always set off metal detectors even when they are down to their skivvies?'
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I will let you analyze how your statement is missing one little bit of reality that would keep the TJ from punching himself to death by punching a MDC bare-handed to do MD to it.

What bit of reality?

If it's that they have thousand of SDC, it's still possible, it just takes thousands of punches.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:(of course this little bit of a codrile is well know to be ..why do TJs wear gauntlets when they are punching MDC stuff to do damage to it?)

Gauntlets prevent them from taking the damage, I'm guessing because they're somehow padded inside.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And you are drifting off the subject of why they would take damage when punching MDC stuff opposed to the chars with para-normal...true... SNPS do not.

Could you clarify where you're getting this 'paranormal' distinction?

My primary inquiry (see title) is the crazy/hyperion, so I'd like if you could convey if you agree about that.

Going beyond that, I did bring up other situations of SDC creatures who can do MD punches. Super abilities being one of the other ways one can acquire augmented or robotic or supernatural strength to do MD (or simply having power channeling, which has it's own MD stat despite not having one of those 3 types of strength)

Assuming we did adopt the Titan guidelines as an optional baseline rule (ie applies to hyperion/delphi/standard juicer, and crazy) the question should be what criteria should create exceptions.

The most 'paranormal' thing about Augmented/Robot strength via super abilities is that Negate Super Abilities works on them.

That's a particular weird part of the Experiment sub-category "Super Soldier" or playing a Physical Training character who gets one or the other, since they seem less paranormal in concept compared to people with major super abilities turning into giants or flying stone men.

Super Soldier is so close to juicer/crazy they are actually suggested as alternatives in HU2. But they do still technically have one minro super ability which presumably can be negated like a mutant or non-SS experiment, rather than being immune to NSA like the Alien-category natural abilities.

Actual actionable information in the Class Defining Text.....yes there is such information in the text.

That is besides answering the question 'why to TJ's always set off metal detectors even when they are down to their skivvies?'[/quote]
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I will let you analyze how your statement is missing one little bit of reality that would keep the TJ from punching himself to death by punching a MDC bare-handed to do MD to it.

What bit of reality?

If it's that they have thousand of SDC, it's still possible, it just takes thousands of punches.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:(of course this little bit of a codrile is well know to be ..why do TJs wear gauntlets when they are punching MDC stuff to do damage to it?)

Gauntlets prevent them from taking the damage, I'm guessing because they're somehow padded inside.

You almost got there. But you left out a few words in this line...."Gauntlets prevent them from taking the damage,..."
In fact you left out 'three important words'.
I will give you a HINT: Where are Gauntlets warn?
--------------

being a SN being, having super powers, or using magic/psi to have SNPS are "paranormal".

Pumping the subject with drugs and metal bits are mundane, not paranormal.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:But you left out a few words in this line....
"Gauntlets prevent them from taking the damage,..."
In fact you left out 'three important words'.
I will give you a HINT: Where are Gauntlets warn?

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. When I wrote "wouldn't it be fair that any other SDC beings punching MDC targets barehanded ought to follow the same rule" my use of "bare" makes it pretty clear I'm talking about not wearing gauntlets. You're not barehanded if you're wearing a gauntlet. The hand is clothed in a glove/gauntlet.

You referred to "reality that would keep the TJ from punching himself to death by punching a MDC bare-handed to do MD to it" which cannot refer to gauntlets, since using gauntlets goes outside the bare-handed context.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:being a SN being, having super powers, or using magic/psi to have SNPS are "paranormal".

Pumping the subject with drugs and metal bits are mundane, not paranormal.

what about when metal bits induce psi, like crazies? blurred lines
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Orin J. »

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:being a SN being, having super powers, or using magic/psi to have SNPS are "paranormal".

Pumping the subject with drugs and metal bits are mundane, not paranormal.

what about when metal bits induce psi, like crazies? blurred lines


crazies are enhanced strength, not supernatural. how did you not know that.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axe, think through things farther than you have been doing by adding real world considerations into your thinking. And ask yourself why would a TJ stop punching with their hands before they would kill themselves with what damage they would do to themselves?


Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:being a SN being, having super powers, or using magic/psi to have SNPS are "paranormal".

Pumping the subject with drugs and metal bits are mundane, not paranormal.

what about when metal bits induce psi, like crazies? blurred lines

The bit about psionics is just a tactic in your argument to get the discussion off topic.
Staying on topic...
Like with juicers, MoM chars are just regular augmented str. :roll:
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

Orin J. wrote:crazies are enhanced strength, not supernatural. how did you not know that.

Orin I would suggest that you re-read the thread. Drew and I were having a wider-scope discussion than just supernatural strength: our conversation also pertained to "Augmented Strength" beings such as crazies and the majority of other lesser juicers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:ask yourself why would a TJ stop punching with their hands before they would kill themselves with what damage they would do to themselves?

Oh, that's what you meant.

On June 24th when I said they COULD punch themselves to death, not that they WOULD.

Juicers tend to have a pretty high PE so odds are they could survive one punch's worth of damage below zero and be put into a coma. Then they'd survive a decent amount of time in that coma, and have a very good chance of getting out of it, especially the titan who is +25% to save vs the coma in addition to PE bonus.

Plus I'm not even sure how it works being in a coma if you heal enough HP to get back into positie. The example of PE 24 would heal 24 hit points per hour, for example, so would that bring them out of it? *shrug* Titan Juicers sound like a good way to get vampire chow, though I think HP restoration rejuvenating blood might onyl be for psi/magic heals

My choice of phrasing was for dramatic impact, the more central problem as I see it is that a Supernatural-Strength Titan Juicer with PS 30 could inflict 3 MD on a 3D6 MD punch and take 3 SDC while an Augmented-Strength Juicer with a PS of 25 might do 3 MD on a 1D4 MD power punch, and take no SDC.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Orin J. »

Axelmania wrote:
Orin J. wrote:crazies are enhanced strength, not supernatural. how did you not know that.

Orin I would suggest that you re-read the thread. Drew and I were having a wider-scope discussion than just supernatural strength: our conversation also pertained to "Augmented Strength" beings such as crazies and the majority of other lesser juicers.


not much of a conversation, you're drawing false dichotomies everywhere and demanding they be treated as relevant information.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

Orin J. wrote:not much of a conversation,
you're drawing false dichotomies everywhere and demanding they be treated as relevant information.

Not much of an apology for implying I was ignorant of the type of strength Crazies had.

Feel free to go into particulars about what dichotomies you're talking about, because I find that a confusing description.

If anything I thought I was objecting to a dichotomy of paranormal / non-paranormal.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Borast »

Think about it this way...
Punch someone in the face IRL and you can break your fist. (We'll ignore the legal and social repercussions for the sake of this discussion.)

That is SDC vs SDC. So, having the Titan take damage when punching bare fisted into an MDC (or even a really thick/dense SDC) structure/object, makes sense. Since it has been more than a decade since I read the OCC, I will presume wearing combat gauntlets will nullify this damage.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

Borast wrote:Think about it this way...
Punch someone in the face IRL and you can break your fist. (We'll ignore the legal and social repercussions for the sake of this discussion.)

That is SDC vs SDC. So, having the Titan take damage when punching bare fisted into an MDC (or even a really thick/dense SDC) structure/object, makes sense. Since it has been more than a decade since I read the OCC, I will presume wearing combat gauntlets will nullify this damage.


I'm not actually objecting to this rule applying to Titan Juicers, but moreso questioning why we wouldn't apply it to all the other SDC juicers when they too perform MD punches.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Borast »

Axelmania wrote:I'm not actually objecting to this rule applying to Titan Juicers, but moreso questioning why we wouldn't apply it to all the other SDC juicers when they too perform MD punches.


Ah, apologies, the way the original post read, and the flow of the replies seemed to indicate you didn't like it.

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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by ryokoryu »

realistically it would apply to other juicers as well as crazies. The times I would not apply this is characters that are supernatural or magical in nature or characters like HU training characters. While they are SDC beings doing this their special power punches clearly state they are channeling chi to do this therefore it should protect their hand or foot.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Borast »

ryokoryu wrote:realistically it would apply to other juicers as well as crazies. The times I would not apply this is characters that are supernatural or magical in nature or characters like HU training characters. While they are SDC beings doing this their special power punches clearly state they are channeling chi to do this therefore it should protect their hand or foot.


Except...to use tamashiwara safely requires kanshu, otherwise, you essentially have a 50/50 shot of taking half damage, and tamashiwara is "channelling your chi" to attack something. For the HU Physical Training character, I would presume something similar to kanshu is included in his or her training regimen, even if it does not involve barrels of rice and pebbles/stones.
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Re: Titan Juicer punching MDC vs crazy/hyperion power-punche

Unread post by Axelmania »

Borast wrote:
ryokoryu wrote:realistically it would apply to other juicers as well as crazies. The times I would not apply this is characters that are supernatural or magical in nature or characters like HU training characters. While they are SDC beings doing this their special power punches clearly state they are channeling chi to do this therefore it should protect their hand or foot.


Except...to use tamashiwara safely requires kanshu, otherwise, you essentially have a 50/50 shot of taking half damage, and tamashiwara is "channelling your chi" to attack something. For the HU Physical Training character, I would presume something similar to kanshu is included in his or her training regimen, even if it does not involve barrels of rice and pebbles/stones.


If we were going to house-rule applying the Titan Juicer rule to other SDC creatures doing MD punches to MD objects, then we could perhaps house-rule some kind of built-in protection (in which case also house-rule the TJ to enjoy it too) like perhaps you could ignore 1 SDC worth of damage to yourself per digit of SDC you have (so 1 SDC for 1-9, 2 SDC for 10-99, 3 SDC for 100-999, 4 SDC for 1000-9999)
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