Splicers vs. Minoin War
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Splicers vs. Minoin War
How well would a house do in the minion war? How well do you think splicers do in the war? If I was to pick the fallen House DeLong I think just rifting them to say Northern Utah a remote valley with the House far underground. They would have to find human allies to learn their enemies weaknesses. Once the learn the fight turns 180 degrees, suddenly you have potent weapons to be used against a formerly unknown enemy. Still they may get cocky and get a punch in the nose. Every fight they would learn something new.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Honestly? I don't see most houses doing all that well. Sure the individual warriors might do fine, but on the scale of the House? Not really all that well.
The problem is the logistics that most Houses use in that they have effectively bottlenecked themselves by locking themselves into the mindset of augmenting an elite core of fighters above and beyond the norm to the point of being detrimental to the whole. Just think about how biotechnology is grown then try to work out a production queue that doesn't make the entire thing seem detrimental.
Instead of developing a system that allows for quick easily replaced losses they instead opted for a system that requires they never suffer losses as any loss is months if not years of development and growth time lost and at best it will take that long to perhaps get back to 50% of that lost unit's capacity.
We can say that they would just withdraw and that only a fool would fight to the death or... and so on yet any military that must function with zero losses is a doomed military. It doesn't matter how many battles they win. They will ultimately lose the war due to the simple fact that their foe can replace their losses. The only fight you need to win is the last one... and if you can't even deploy a force the fight back then what good were all those victories?
Note: This is all based on my recollections of the various enemies, the Demons and Deevils, they would face in the minion war and the options available to those enemies. I'm sure I'm forgetting something or not remembering other things correctly... I honestly wasn't all that impressed with any of the Minion War books. I do remember the logistics of the Houses though, as I find them inept and usually attribute them to the greed of humanity rather than the author not fully grasping how badly he'd screwed humanity over with the presented setup and culture such a set up would both produce and require to sustain itself.
The problem is the logistics that most Houses use in that they have effectively bottlenecked themselves by locking themselves into the mindset of augmenting an elite core of fighters above and beyond the norm to the point of being detrimental to the whole. Just think about how biotechnology is grown then try to work out a production queue that doesn't make the entire thing seem detrimental.
Instead of developing a system that allows for quick easily replaced losses they instead opted for a system that requires they never suffer losses as any loss is months if not years of development and growth time lost and at best it will take that long to perhaps get back to 50% of that lost unit's capacity.
We can say that they would just withdraw and that only a fool would fight to the death or... and so on yet any military that must function with zero losses is a doomed military. It doesn't matter how many battles they win. They will ultimately lose the war due to the simple fact that their foe can replace their losses. The only fight you need to win is the last one... and if you can't even deploy a force the fight back then what good were all those victories?
Note: This is all based on my recollections of the various enemies, the Demons and Deevils, they would face in the minion war and the options available to those enemies. I'm sure I'm forgetting something or not remembering other things correctly... I honestly wasn't all that impressed with any of the Minion War books. I do remember the logistics of the Houses though, as I find them inept and usually attribute them to the greed of humanity rather than the author not fully grasping how badly he'd screwed humanity over with the presented setup and culture such a set up would both produce and require to sustain itself.
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
That's strange as I see humans fighting overwhelming odds and not just surviving but fighting back.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
As I said they can win all the battles, but they will, or should, based on the production capacity and recovery capabilities of the enemies, lose the war do to the inability of humanity to suffer losses. The Machine also doesn't have the same requirements for success that humans would, it can suffer losses that would break any human military and just keep going with little consideration. Humanity would likely believe that large numbers of 'dead' machines are a success, but they are just the bullets of the gun that the machine uses... and as depicted its clip is functionally unlimited.
The vaunted Host Armor takes months of development before it can be deployed and then requires years of further 'refining' before it's likely to be very effective. The Warmounts also take months to years to develop followed by years of growth followed by years of 'refining'.
A gene-pool has a limit to how many organisms it can grow, refine, or heal at any one time. This is the inherent bottleneck, this is further bottlenecked, though it's stretchier, by the volume of food and organic material each of the gene-pools consumes which goes up as their production capacity goes up. Not to mention all the food that is needed for the various organisms and their pilots...
If someone wants to ignore the holes in the setting and just roll with it... I wouldn't blame them, it'd be easier. Sadly my brain doesn't work that way. Thus, though individually powerful, I don't see how the Resistance can win. Right now the only reason they have the illusion of potential success is, in my opinion, writer fiat. Just look at the one(only) example of a 'successful' house... they not only took out the only control node in a wide area, but the terrain is hostile to the machine forces to the point that machines that linger are going to be destroyed just from wandering around...
Interestingly fighting the Demons and Deevils takes on an interesting and potentially viable strategy of killing them on the their home turf, which is a permanent death for them. Since neither of the groups is capable of reproducing, with the odd exception of the gargoyles. This is a viable long term strategy for killing off both races, which they have been doing to each other on a smaller scale. IIRC, the respective books actually provide the numbers of how many Demons and Deevils there are in total... which while likely sounding dangerously large and impressive are, IIRC, not all that impressive on the scale they are supposed to be operating.
As long as you only fought via hit and run and never lose any of the War Mounts, Gorehounds, Host Armors or upgraded Living Armor... then they should be fine. However, once they start losing these hard to replace organisms then the house will start to suffer... the player group might not... but every piece of living equipment they get allocated had to come from somewhere and someone else isn't getting the replacement or time the players are.
The vaunted Host Armor takes months of development before it can be deployed and then requires years of further 'refining' before it's likely to be very effective. The Warmounts also take months to years to develop followed by years of growth followed by years of 'refining'.
A gene-pool has a limit to how many organisms it can grow, refine, or heal at any one time. This is the inherent bottleneck, this is further bottlenecked, though it's stretchier, by the volume of food and organic material each of the gene-pools consumes which goes up as their production capacity goes up. Not to mention all the food that is needed for the various organisms and their pilots...
If someone wants to ignore the holes in the setting and just roll with it... I wouldn't blame them, it'd be easier. Sadly my brain doesn't work that way. Thus, though individually powerful, I don't see how the Resistance can win. Right now the only reason they have the illusion of potential success is, in my opinion, writer fiat. Just look at the one(only) example of a 'successful' house... they not only took out the only control node in a wide area, but the terrain is hostile to the machine forces to the point that machines that linger are going to be destroyed just from wandering around...
Interestingly fighting the Demons and Deevils takes on an interesting and potentially viable strategy of killing them on the their home turf, which is a permanent death for them. Since neither of the groups is capable of reproducing, with the odd exception of the gargoyles. This is a viable long term strategy for killing off both races, which they have been doing to each other on a smaller scale. IIRC, the respective books actually provide the numbers of how many Demons and Deevils there are in total... which while likely sounding dangerously large and impressive are, IIRC, not all that impressive on the scale they are supposed to be operating.
As long as you only fought via hit and run and never lose any of the War Mounts, Gorehounds, Host Armors or upgraded Living Armor... then they should be fine. However, once they start losing these hard to replace organisms then the house will start to suffer... the player group might not... but every piece of living equipment they get allocated had to come from somewhere and someone else isn't getting the replacement or time the players are.
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
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Shark_Force
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
i dunno, a relatively small number of splicers could very easily take down fairly large groups of demonic enemies. a regular infantryman can be packing the equivalent of a fully-automatic grenade launcher. a group of outriders could very easily just never let the demons get close. and splicers bonuses get up to crazy levels that would frankly not favour the demons nearly as much as you might expect. furthermore, there doesn't seem to be *that* much of a resource bottleneck that you're describing... most OCCs come armed to the teeth (in some cases literally), having not only built-in weapons and enhancements but an ample supply of additional weapons. the great house that we have full official stats for has 70% of their population as military, the vast majority of which are actual soldiers. additional equipment, where it can be bought rather than earned through deeds, is frankly not very expensive at all compared to what it does.
none of this implies shortages of equipment, rather it implies an abundance of equipment and a shortage of human beings to make use of it.
frankly, I think the great majority (perhaps eventually reaching 99% or higher) of encounters with demons will result in many demons being killed, with no losses on the part of the splicers, and while those losses will be recovered by the demons, as I recall it isn't instant.
most of the casualties will come in the initial encounters, before the splicers figure out that their enemies have a crippling weakness in mobility. even then, i honestly wouldn't be too surprised to find that a single moderately experienced (level 3-5) dreadguard or outrider can simply out-melee dozens of enemies with insane bonuses to automatic dodge and an assortment of extremely hard-hitting attacks. in some cases, I could actually even believe the silly numbers palladium tends to put out, like casualty ratios of over a thousand to one, simply from a single well-placed dual omega blast tearing down a marching column of demons.
none of this implies shortages of equipment, rather it implies an abundance of equipment and a shortage of human beings to make use of it.
frankly, I think the great majority (perhaps eventually reaching 99% or higher) of encounters with demons will result in many demons being killed, with no losses on the part of the splicers, and while those losses will be recovered by the demons, as I recall it isn't instant.
most of the casualties will come in the initial encounters, before the splicers figure out that their enemies have a crippling weakness in mobility. even then, i honestly wouldn't be too surprised to find that a single moderately experienced (level 3-5) dreadguard or outrider can simply out-melee dozens of enemies with insane bonuses to automatic dodge and an assortment of extremely hard-hitting attacks. in some cases, I could actually even believe the silly numbers palladium tends to put out, like casualty ratios of over a thousand to one, simply from a single well-placed dual omega blast tearing down a marching column of demons.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
@ Slight001 Writer fiat is a common feature of the system.
Last edited by boxee on Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Of note is that almost everything splicers regenerate and regrow ammo. The only problem I really see is magic is an unknown to splicers, but they would just adapt over time IMO.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
@Shark_Force, I generally write off anything intended for the players as writers fiat to ensure that the players are the designated Main Characters, if not the designated Heroes. Librarians and Engineers: The Duality of Bio-Tech is the closest I can find to what I was remembering. My books are not available at the moment, so I'm not going to make quotes or dig through them to make a point that I know doesn't matter. I know that the setting has always left me with a feeling that the Resistance has a **** logistics system, because fixing that was part of the driving force of my own 'house' The Hel'breki.
@Boxee, agreed. Sadly it's easier to just write something off then work around the reality that was created.
In theory, if a Splicers team was able to keep from taking 'permanent' damage, ie destroying a weapon or losing a limb, or getting caught in a trap or... and was able to withdraw and given the time to both fully rearm and regenerate then yeah they can do a lot of damage. If the enemy they are fighting is dumb enough to let them do that than the Splicers should win. I just don't treat the enemy as generally foolish and when they are it's because of someone that is a fool and once replaced forces a paradigm shift in the danger level even without a real need to change the capabilities of the forces. Leadership, strategies, and tactics, can overcome many limitations... that applies to both the Houses and their enemies.
@Boxee, agreed. Sadly it's easier to just write something off then work around the reality that was created.
In theory, if a Splicers team was able to keep from taking 'permanent' damage, ie destroying a weapon or losing a limb, or getting caught in a trap or... and was able to withdraw and given the time to both fully rearm and regenerate then yeah they can do a lot of damage. If the enemy they are fighting is dumb enough to let them do that than the Splicers should win. I just don't treat the enemy as generally foolish and when they are it's because of someone that is a fool and once replaced forces a paradigm shift in the danger level even without a real need to change the capabilities of the forces. Leadership, strategies, and tactics, can overcome many limitations... that applies to both the Houses and their enemies.
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
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Shark_Force
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
pretty sure the demons are *literally* explicitly described as having the utmost contempt for mortals and consider them to be weak and nothing more than food or entertainment. acting like a bunch of morons is *exactly* what we should expect from them.
and it isn't much a matter of "letting" anyone do anything; the demons are slow. they're slow on the ground, they're slow in the air, they're just slow. they lack range as well, the vast majority being limited to melee combat with a few spellcasters, most of which can reach several hundred foot ranges with any of their spells at the most. the splicers may not have an obscene amount of weaponry with ranges in the 1+ mile range, but they do have it, including some options that have unlimited ammunition, and they *definitely* have plenty that can reach in the neighbourhood of 2,000 feet. the demons have few, if any, options for AoE damage. the splicers are flush with it. the demons are not really anything particularly special in melee combat. splicers can have modifiers to strike, parry, and automatic dodge in the teens, and weapons that probably do 2-3 times as much damage, and often can apply some crowd control alongside their melee attacks. the demons have pathetically bad communications networks, and are for the most part stuck relying on physically sending messengers around. splicers are almost universally equipped with undetectable radios.
splicers are all experts in ambushes, hit and run tactics, and so forth, because all of their training revolves around exactly that kind of thing, because those are the only options in how to conduct war in their world. their entire lives have been a desperate war of attrition against an enemy that has nigh infinite resources. the only way they're EVER going to voluntarily get into a slugfest is when they are extremely confident they have a massive advantage, and even after that they're probably going to disappear ASAP because that is what war *is* to them; you ambush your enemy, destroy them entirely, and then you get the heck out of there before your opponent sends a new army ten times as big as you could ever hope to handle into the area to wipe you out of existence with a response time of a few minutes. frankly, I'm not convinced they're even *capable* of underestimating the demon's armies... if anything, they will probably spend a lot of time overestimating an enemy that for once in their entire lives can't just casually send a few dozen air superiority fighters capable of multiples of mach speed and armed with all manner of bombs and other weapons per person in their squad.
the demons have no respect for their enemies, and are grossly outmatched in almost every category imaginable. frankly, the vast majority of them are not particularly even superior in magical power, because most of them are not spellcasters of any sort.
frankly, "only" fighting in the minion wars will ironically probably seem like *heaven* to the splicer forces. the scale of the threat is almost *laughable* compared to what NEXUS can bring to bear.
and it isn't much a matter of "letting" anyone do anything; the demons are slow. they're slow on the ground, they're slow in the air, they're just slow. they lack range as well, the vast majority being limited to melee combat with a few spellcasters, most of which can reach several hundred foot ranges with any of their spells at the most. the splicers may not have an obscene amount of weaponry with ranges in the 1+ mile range, but they do have it, including some options that have unlimited ammunition, and they *definitely* have plenty that can reach in the neighbourhood of 2,000 feet. the demons have few, if any, options for AoE damage. the splicers are flush with it. the demons are not really anything particularly special in melee combat. splicers can have modifiers to strike, parry, and automatic dodge in the teens, and weapons that probably do 2-3 times as much damage, and often can apply some crowd control alongside their melee attacks. the demons have pathetically bad communications networks, and are for the most part stuck relying on physically sending messengers around. splicers are almost universally equipped with undetectable radios.
splicers are all experts in ambushes, hit and run tactics, and so forth, because all of their training revolves around exactly that kind of thing, because those are the only options in how to conduct war in their world. their entire lives have been a desperate war of attrition against an enemy that has nigh infinite resources. the only way they're EVER going to voluntarily get into a slugfest is when they are extremely confident they have a massive advantage, and even after that they're probably going to disappear ASAP because that is what war *is* to them; you ambush your enemy, destroy them entirely, and then you get the heck out of there before your opponent sends a new army ten times as big as you could ever hope to handle into the area to wipe you out of existence with a response time of a few minutes. frankly, I'm not convinced they're even *capable* of underestimating the demon's armies... if anything, they will probably spend a lot of time overestimating an enemy that for once in their entire lives can't just casually send a few dozen air superiority fighters capable of multiples of mach speed and armed with all manner of bombs and other weapons per person in their squad.
the demons have no respect for their enemies, and are grossly outmatched in almost every category imaginable. frankly, the vast majority of them are not particularly even superior in magical power, because most of them are not spellcasters of any sort.
frankly, "only" fighting in the minion wars will ironically probably seem like *heaven* to the splicer forces. the scale of the threat is almost *laughable* compared to what NEXUS can bring to bear.
Last edited by Shark_Force on Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
@Slight001 Have you ever posted your great house? The Hel'breki.
The splicers world flat out says the machine can win, but what fun would that be? The personalities of the machine want humanity around, they even want splicers around.
What I was asking is if you drop a great house into the setting during the minion war would the splicers be squished or would they thrive? I was not asking about a small group or party of splicers but a full great house.
I could see splicers being just out gunned, but I also can see the splicers just kicking the minions without breaking a sweat.
I really do not see food being a problem for splicers on rifts earth.
The splicers world flat out says the machine can win, but what fun would that be? The personalities of the machine want humanity around, they even want splicers around.
What I was asking is if you drop a great house into the setting during the minion war would the splicers be squished or would they thrive? I was not asking about a small group or party of splicers but a full great house.
I could see splicers being just out gunned, but I also can see the splicers just kicking the minions without breaking a sweat.
I really do not see food being a problem for splicers on rifts earth.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
boxee wrote:@Slight001 Have you ever posted your great house? The Hel'breki.
IIRC, I've talked about it and done general concepts for the Hel'breki, but I never got around to making stats for them. In general, they have largely disregarded the stock equipment, specifically the Host/Proto armor and Mount concepts, archangels are gone as well, and have a serious hate-on going for the Dreadguard and the Warlords who they feel are the greatest hindrance to the Resistance. Perhaps I'll look through my google drive files and see what I've got on them. It's been a while.
boxee wrote:The splicers world flat out says the machine can win, but what fun would that be? The personalities of the machine want humanity around, they even want splicers around.
I know, that challenge of creating a system that could supply the forces needed to beat N.E.X.U.S. in a straight fight was part of the motivation for making the Hel'breki... that and I wanted a "House" that I'd be being a member of...
boxee wrote:What I was asking is if you drop a great house into the setting during the minion war would the splicers be squished or would they thrive? I was not asking about a small group or party of splicers but a full great house.
Yeah, I understood. Based on what Shark_Force has written it is possible that I am not remembering the stats of the Demons and Deevil's correctly... sadly I'm not likely to gain access to my books for some time due to this Covid19 crap.
boxee wrote:I could see splicers being just out gunned, but I also can see the splicers just kicking the minions without breaking a sweat.
Splicers have both a serious advantage and a disadvantage in that many of their best equipment relies on regeneration to reload its ammo.
boxee wrote:I really do not see food being a problem for splicers on rifts earth.
Largely this would depend on the area, though in general, I agree. To sustain the levels of wildlife that the Rifts books seem to suggest is around would likely mean that the world has entered a new age of biological prosperity.
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
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taalismn
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Slight001 wrote:boxee wrote:@Slight001 Have you ever posted your great house? The Hel'breki.
IIRC, I've talked about it and done general concepts for the Hel'breki, but I never got around to making stats for them. In general, they have largely disregarded the stock equipment, specifically the Host/Proto armor and Mount concepts, archangels are gone as well, and have a serious hate-on going for the Dreadguard and the Warlords who they feel are the greatest hindrance to the Resistance. Perhaps I'll look through my google drive files and see what I've got on them. It's been a while..
I'd be interested in what you got in place of the Host armors and mounts as heavy hitters...greater emphasis on biotics? Biological VonNeuman critters like metal-eating rats? Gardeners?
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
@Slight001 you might look at drivethroughrpg.com they have almost all the printed palladium books and most rifter magazines. I know it is not the same as having the printed books but they are handy if you cannot get to the actual books. I hope this information is helpful. I have alot of palladium book from them and it has helped when I traveled.
Many host armors and equipment do not require food in the way we do. Some are solar powered some eat minerals(dirt and rocks). Some require only blood. So food might not be a really bad issue.
One issue I see is that the word demon and devil are so broad as to cover things ranging from Gurgoyles to Raksasha. One barely a threat the other a major threat.
Many host armors and equipment do not require food in the way we do. Some are solar powered some eat minerals(dirt and rocks). Some require only blood. So food might not be a really bad issue.
One issue I see is that the word demon and devil are so broad as to cover things ranging from Gurgoyles to Raksasha. One barely a threat the other a major threat.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
taalismn wrote:I'd be interested in what you got in place of the Host armors and mounts as heavy hitters...greater emphasis on biotics? Biological VonNeuman critters like metal-eating rats? Gardeners?
Without going into too much detail... partially because I'm working off memory and mostly because this isn't the thread's topic...
Host armor was replaced with a modular system achieved thanks to the study of various forms of symbiotic styles of life, both of Earth and Alien origin. The goal was to minimize the number of components that are gene locked and enable the greatest recycling of various pieces of bioware as well as allowing for the complete reconfiguring of a warrior's armament to suit the current battle. This 'balanced' by removing the Bio-E = Currency from the Hel'breki mindset, and instead treating it as an upper limit of how much a single individual's nervous system can handle in processing.
Mounts were replaced with something that is more akin to a living machine, partially due to the Hel'breki culture of not forcing others to fight their battles for them. Since engineered animals can't choose the Hel'breki don't enable full intelligence in their "Warbeasts", can't remember another name for them... names were never my strong suit. essentially the Hel'breki have been focused on creating combat effective war machines that conform to their own experiences.
Hel'breki don't use biotics, though some would likely accuse them of being biotics due to the fully propagated gene mods they all carry now as members of a new species. That and the Hel'breki make sure to employ weaponry that is fully effective against all enemies, be they machine or splicer... and that was before the likes of Legion came into being. I only have a few notes written about it but it looks like I was attempting to create something like a magic system, Codenamed "Bio-Mystic", for them by expanding on the bio-energy expulsion vents and bio-forcefields. Kind of looks like I was going for a Sith/Jedi/Cyber-Knight feel with them.
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Sounds like a really cool concept house. Too bad you are unable to share the history and technology.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Great House Mordred formed when a rift formed and took the survivors to a new world! Mordread grabbed the opportunity to seize command, he installed a Council Of Lords to rule at his side. A large system of caves was found and quickly cleared out and expanded.In a week the tunnels run for miles underground.The entrance to the grotto is behind a waterfall nearly impossible to find. Several large chambers have been dug out. Right now the system is expansive, some might say roomy. The seed is growing creating living space and heating, it senses long rough winters.It is spiraling down with spokes coming out every so often. Able has started his garden near the waterfall, security first.
Mordread has sent out his scout and awaits their reports. Hoping they return before the first snows fall. In the middle of Able's garden is a sinkhole that leads to the kennels. Able will Camouflage the entrances as well as he can. Several host armors and biotics are able to endure arctic conditions. The rest of the house will stay underground where it is warm. Right before the first snows Mordread gets his reports from spies he sent out. He could hardly believe his eyes. No machine forces hunting them, still threats but nothing like the machine. If everything goes well Mordread will allow civilians to create a small village on the surface.
Let me know what you think please!
Mordread has sent out his scout and awaits their reports. Hoping they return before the first snows fall. In the middle of Able's garden is a sinkhole that leads to the kennels. Able will Camouflage the entrances as well as he can. Several host armors and biotics are able to endure arctic conditions. The rest of the house will stay underground where it is warm. Right before the first snows Mordread gets his reports from spies he sent out. He could hardly believe his eyes. No machine forces hunting them, still threats but nothing like the machine. If everything goes well Mordread will allow civilians to create a small village on the surface.
Let me know what you think please!
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
It could be interesting. That's a good basic story seed to start with.
Don't seeds grow slowly at first? IIRC they start growing crazy fast after a few years, like exponentially, but I thought it took them time to get to that stage?
Don't seeds grow slowly at first? IIRC they start growing crazy fast after a few years, like exponentially, but I thought it took them time to get to that stage?
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
The story takes place over the period of several months from late summer to early winter. So the seed is just starting to grow. Most of the tunnels have been expanded and dug out using tools.
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taalismn
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Slight001 wrote:taalismn wrote:I'd be interested in what you got in place of the Host armors and mounts as heavy hitters...greater emphasis on biotics? Biological VonNeuman critters like metal-eating rats? Gardeners?
Without going into too much detail... partially because I'm working off memory and mostly because this isn't the thread's topic...
Host armor was replaced with a modular system achieved thanks to the study of various forms of symbiotic styles of life, both of Earth and Alien origin. The goal was to minimize the number of components that are gene locked and enable the greatest recycling of various pieces of bioware as well as allowing for the complete reconfiguring of a warrior's armament to suit the current battle. This 'balanced' by removing the Bio-E = Currency from the Hel'breki mindset, and instead treating it as an upper limit of how much a single individual's nervous system can handle in processing.
Mounts were replaced with something that is more akin to a living machine, partially due to the Hel'breki culture of not forcing others to fight their battles for them. Since engineered animals can't choose the Hel'breki don't enable full intelligence in their "Warbeasts", can't remember another name for them... names were never my strong suit. essentially the Hel'breki have been focused on creating combat effective war machines that conform to their own experiences..
Well, a few thoughts before returning to topic and/or you come out with a thread dedicated to the ideas you're developing.
Sounds to me like bio machinery akin to 'meat' and organs produced by 3d printing using cell cultures and animated by (biochemical processes? Psionic? The 'magic' of which you speak?). Not really self-aware, but running on autonomics. Doubt if such a thing would even have reflexes of any complex sort which would place it at a disadvantage in combat unless it had a constant guiding presence to tell it what to do. So no drones? Unless the stuff can be 'programmed' to carry out simple tasks with some sort of biofeedback? Not really 'thinking' in any conscious sense. So, 'BioDrones? BioMeks?
The personal gene-modding I can understand; I do a lot of it with the HU Supersoldier tweaks and HU Eugenic Hero tables for Rifts.
Please feel free to PM me on the topics.
We now return you to your normally scheduled programming. *vzzt*
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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Ziggurat the Eternal
- Hero
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Slight001 wrote:taalismn wrote:I'd be interested in what you got in place of the Host armors and mounts as heavy hitters...greater emphasis on biotics? Biological VonNeuman critters like metal-eating rats? Gardeners?
Without going into too much detail... partially because I'm working off memory and mostly because this isn't the thread's topic...
Host armor was replaced with a modular system achieved thanks to the study of various forms of symbiotic styles of life, both of Earth and Alien origin. The goal was to minimize the number of components that are gene locked and enable the greatest recycling of various pieces of bioware as well as allowing for the complete reconfiguring of a warrior's armament to suit the current battle. This 'balanced' by removing the Bio-E = Currency from the Hel'breki mindset, and instead treating it as an upper limit of how much a single individual's nervous system can handle in processing.
Mounts were replaced with something that is more akin to a living machine, partially due to the Hel'breki culture of not forcing others to fight their battles for them. Since engineered animals can't choose the Hel'breki don't enable full intelligence in their "Warbeasts", can't remember another name for them... names were never my strong suit. essentially the Hel'breki have been focused on creating combat effective war machines that conform to their own experiences.
Hel'breki don't use biotics, though some would likely accuse them of being biotics due to the fully propagated gene mods they all carry now as members of a new species. That and the Hel'breki make sure to employ weaponry that is fully effective against all enemies, be they machine or splicer... and that was before the likes of Legion came into being. I only have a few notes written about it but it looks like I was attempting to create something like a magic system, Codenamed "Bio-Mystic", for them by expanding on the bio-energy expulsion vents and bio-forcefields. Kind of looks like I was going for a Sith/Jedi/Cyber-Knight feel with them.
That sounds awesome. I hope you can share this all with us some day. Id be pretty darn interested.
Balabanto wrote:Well, something called The Devastator should Devastate things. 1d6x10 couldn't devastate your mother in Rifts.
amodernheathen wrote:If, in one posting, I can increase the hellish chaos of even a single planet seven-fold, then I believe that I have done my duty as a Game Master to the widows and orphans of that world. By increasing their number. Drastically.
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taalismn
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
On the original topic:
My automatic reaction would be that, given that Splicer biotech is, well, biological, it's susceptible to magic, so your living tanks are going to fall prey to all manner of spells and psionic, even with most war mounts', bio-armors' superhuman resilience. And the Houses' hard-earned distrust and reluctance to adapt hard-tech, or even handle metals like cold iron, will rob them of a number of convenient weapons they could use against Infernals.
TechnoJackers might fare a little better, but they're heavily reliant on a nanite-rich environment to work their snazzier tricks...and you do NOT want an abundance of Machine nanotech running loose on Rifts Earth.
So, IMHO the Splicers on Rifts Earth facing the Infernals would, by themselves, get stomped. Their fear of hard-tech would lead to them shunning making alliances with obvious metal-tech users, and even reacting with hostility to them coming near their communities.
My automatic reaction would be that, given that Splicer biotech is, well, biological, it's susceptible to magic, so your living tanks are going to fall prey to all manner of spells and psionic, even with most war mounts', bio-armors' superhuman resilience. And the Houses' hard-earned distrust and reluctance to adapt hard-tech, or even handle metals like cold iron, will rob them of a number of convenient weapons they could use against Infernals.
TechnoJackers might fare a little better, but they're heavily reliant on a nanite-rich environment to work their snazzier tricks...and you do NOT want an abundance of Machine nanotech running loose on Rifts Earth.
So, IMHO the Splicers on Rifts Earth facing the Infernals would, by themselves, get stomped. Their fear of hard-tech would lead to them shunning making alliances with obvious metal-tech users, and even reacting with hostility to them coming near their communities.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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Shark_Force
- Palladin
- Posts: 7128
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
there aren't a lot of - infernals? I'm going with infernals - that have the kinds of magical or psionic powers to seriously cripple biological creations. especially not biological creations that can often destroy them before they can even get into sight range.
additionally, specifically having metal-based technology does not seem like it would be particularly a major problem. regular MD weaponry of most varieties seems to work just fine. there might be a few enemies vulnerable to cold iron, but that doesn't seem to be a case of "immune to everything except X" as it is "X works extra well on them". if anything, I'd expect something like bio-energy to be particularly effective against demons. consider the biomancy spell bio-blast, for example, which deals increased damage to supernatural creatures (which should cover all demons).
if any alliance is likely to be of great value in preventing psionic and magical attacks, it will be alliances with psychic and magical groups, and neither of those are particularly reliant on metal (unless we count techno-wizards, although honestly they probably *could* use gold or something for wiring if they had to). those are the people with countermeasures for magical and psychic assaults. because admittedly, if the few infernals that *do* have powers like possession can start taking over warmounts, they will indeed be able to cause some problems... but machines are *terrible* at using the psionic or magic abilities that can exorcise someone.
additionally, specifically having metal-based technology does not seem like it would be particularly a major problem. regular MD weaponry of most varieties seems to work just fine. there might be a few enemies vulnerable to cold iron, but that doesn't seem to be a case of "immune to everything except X" as it is "X works extra well on them". if anything, I'd expect something like bio-energy to be particularly effective against demons. consider the biomancy spell bio-blast, for example, which deals increased damage to supernatural creatures (which should cover all demons).
if any alliance is likely to be of great value in preventing psionic and magical attacks, it will be alliances with psychic and magical groups, and neither of those are particularly reliant on metal (unless we count techno-wizards, although honestly they probably *could* use gold or something for wiring if they had to). those are the people with countermeasures for magical and psychic assaults. because admittedly, if the few infernals that *do* have powers like possession can start taking over warmounts, they will indeed be able to cause some problems... but machines are *terrible* at using the psionic or magic abilities that can exorcise someone.
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taalismn
- Priest
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Infernals is just a general term I use to describe the main two factions in the Minion Wars.
I'll have to review it, but can't some of the Plagues used in the Minion War conceivably harm Splicer tech?
I'll have to review it, but can't some of the Plagues used in the Minion War conceivably harm Splicer tech?
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
I could see Splicers doing really well in overt stand-up battles against simple tanking sub-demons like Gurgoyles who lack special powers, but stuff like invisibility or magic or shapeshifting or tiny bug-like Lasae crawling in to murder your unarmored troops is probably going to cause them lots of trouble.
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BookWyrm
- Champion
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Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
Here's a few questions; Would the Nanobot Plague affect Minions? Since the Splicer world doesn't have any discernable magic or ley-lines, would the Minions (all basically magical creatures) notice the absence of such energies?
"Yes, I know I'm going to hell; I'm bringing marshmallows."
BookWyrm aka The Horn'd One
Str-8 male Dom/Top;
Honourable but not gullible;
a Hero of the Megaverse.
BookWyrm aka The Horn'd One
Str-8 male Dom/Top;
Honourable but not gullible;
a Hero of the Megaverse.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
I think spells like invisibility would not be as effective as people may think. There are alot of splicers that would be able to detect them right off the bat. Small demons sneaking into splicers bases would likely also be detected before any real damage would occur. Splicers are used to creatures like cable snakes trying to sneak into their bases and have counter-measures. Greater demons would be hard to deal with as first, but then they become high value targets that are the focus of attacks.
Splicers distrust of outsiders would be an asset when facing things like shapeshifters and infiltrators. Yes splicers would often miss chances at alliances but they also miss getting betrayed by false allies.
Splicers distrust of outsiders would be an asset when facing things like shapeshifters and infiltrators. Yes splicers would often miss chances at alliances but they also miss getting betrayed by false allies.
Re: Splicers vs. Minoin War
boxee wrote:I think spells like invisibility would not be as effective as people may think. There are alot of splicers that would be able to detect them right off the bat.
I should probably pay closer attention to the sensory enhancements for thermal vision and the like.
When it comes to natural abilities I remember some note as to whether it functions like Invis:Lesser (can attack, but thermals detect) or Invis:Superior (can't attack, but thermals can't detect) but can't remmber which, I think one of the FAQs...
boxee wrote:Small demons sneaking into splicers bases would likely also be detected before any real damage would occur. Splicers are used to creatures like cable snakes trying to sneak into their bases and have counter-measures.
I can't remember those, will check the main book later. Does it mention how they tend to detect them? Maybe just have complete seals w/ membranes so it requires damaging them to get in, and such damage is somehow detected?