A Shifter with Multiple Links to the Supernatural

[Giant2005]

Is there anything stopping a Shifter from forming Links to the Supernatural with multiple beings?
Sure the beings themselves might be inclined to prevent it as part of their contract, but other beings (like Elementals) aren't likely to care.
Could a potential Warlock (someone favored enough by the Elementals that he would have been a Warlock if not for the fact that he instead trained to be a Shifter) form a Link with two Elementals (one of each element that he would have been if choosing to be a Warlock instead), or maybe even a Shifter of 4 elements if forming links with an Elemental of each element?
Taking it even further, is there anything stopping a Shifter from forming a link with 6 different Earth Elementals, so he is picking up 6 Earth Warlock spells each level?
If you do think it is possible for a Shifter to form multiple links without severing earlier links, do you agree with the assessment that Elementals would be disinclined to bother adding any clauses to prevent multiple links, and do you think there are any other beings that would be equally liberal with offering a link without an exclusivity clause?

[Orin J.]

what's stopping them? probably the fact the greater supernatural being sees the shifter as an investment where they get something out of the deal (service) rather than handing out prizes for some kid's birthday party. you don't hire a guy that already has a job you have to work around usually.

i'm not actually sure you can form a link with elementals, actually. like, what do you offer them? they don't have any goals or anything. i guess you might be able to offer them a way to recover other elementals that have been bound into service too long but is that even something they bother with?

[Giant2005]

i'm not actually sure you can form a link with elementals, actually. like, what do you offer them? they don't have any goals or anything. i guess you might be able to offer them a way to recover other elementals that have been bound into service too long but is that even something they bother with?

It says "Elementals are curious beings and a few have been known to form links with mortals other than Warlocks. The Elementals seem to have no goals or agenda, and may merely be curious about the Shifter's world."
It sounds to me like they don't really ask anything from the Shifter. They just want a connection to the world for the hell of it. I see them like Ryuk from Death Note - completely bored of their own existence so they make a link just so they can watch what their mortal as some version of a reality show. Of course that is my human mind trying to translate alien actions, and likely extremely far from the truth.

[glitterboy2098]

i would say no.

keep in mind that the link is described as a weaker form of the pacts which give Witches their power. in those the being which they pact with instills a part of their essence into the Witch, giving them their magical powers. since the Shifter Link is described as a weaker form of that, as the shifter is given a bit of the essence of the being being linked to. it is the being projecting a portion of their power onto their servant/pawn.

in fact, if you compare the "gifts" that witches are given to lure them into making a pact (which are also described as the being granting them a portion of its essence and powers) they map pretty closely to the various links shifters can make. further emphasizing that these are related situations.

witches cannot receive gifts or make pacts with multiple beings. presumably the essence fragment inside them would notice the addition of more fragments, and both entities would immediately know another link was made. since they cannot pact with more than one i would guess that the essence fragment (however small) would reject the arrival of new fragments. so it would make sense that a Shifter who has made a link would also be unable to make another link for similar reasons.

that said, there is nothing precluding a Shifter who has not made a link from attempting to serve multiple masters. indeed given that the OCC states that smart shifters do not take the 1st few offers they receive, it would seem likely that most shifter "shop around" to find the best offers before making a link. but since the description also says that the beings offering the link require the shifter to do errands for them before offering access to their power, it would indicate that most shifters will be doing the bidding of several different entities for a time before they decide which to link to

[Mack]

Instead of a flat no, I'd call it highly unusual even among those Shifters who do have Links.

Which is another way of saying the player needs to have a really, really, good backstory and isn't trying to min-max a powerful character.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Instead of a flat no, I'd call it highly unusual even among those Shifters who do have Links.

Which is another way of saying the player needs to have a really, really, good backstory and isn't trying to min-max a powerful character.

My quick response to this would be, No.
However, I also agree with Mack. Especially the part about it not about not for Min-Max'ing the char reasons.

[Curbludgeon]

I could see it as a good way to portray someone whom while not expressly a priest is dedicated to a pantheon of deities, especially those depicted as being tight-knit but henotheistic and with a magical emphasis. If Ancient Egyptian religion hadn't already been coopted by Palladium I'd see that working well, as might an Avestan magus. It seems reasonable to limit spell knowledge gained through a link once it's been forgone, and I'd be cooler with a character having one long-term link and one that's flexible than having three or more links. As an example, a Norse Seiðr might maintain a link with Odin or Freya, but link with Hel and gain temporary access to some Bone Magic for constructing their take on Naglfar before linking with Thor to go Viking while on the ship.

[rem1093]

I dont have my books with me. But do Shifters get the natural abilities of the supernatural/magical creature they link with?

[glitterboy2098]

I dont have my books with me. But do Shifters get the natural abilities of the supernatural/magical creature they link with?

rules as written, they get a specific set of bonuses and new spells/powers depending on the type of beingthey link to. demons giving different stuff than a god of light for example.

[Axelmania]

It says "Elementals are curious beings and a few have been known to form links with mortals other than Warlocks. The Elementals seem to have no goals or agenda, and may merely be curious about the Shifter's world."

This option from DB7p45 circa 2003 was notably absent on RUE 125 circa 2005

Ultimate only has:

1) Demon Lords
2) Dark Gods
3) War Gods
4) Magic Gods
5) Nature Spirits

Builder had:
1) Demon Lords
2) Devil Lords
3) Light Gods
4) Dark Gods
5) Vampire Intelligence
6) Elementals
7) Nature Spirits
Warrior Gods
9) Magic Gods

Makes me wonder if removal of the four (Devil/Light/Vamp/Elemental) options were meant to remove them reducing options from nine to five? I expect many Ultimate GMs with Builder will allow those legacy options though.

[SolCannibal]

Simple question, can a Shifter have multiple familiar links? Because i remember the Supernatural Link being described as a variant of this with the roles reversed.

Either way, for those bringing up the "servant of a pantheon" angle, i would like to point out Salkind the Metal Mage (SoT6, pgs.107-111), as an example of a shifter whose one link connects not to a single entity, but a collective, the Drolian Council, ruling body of an extradimensional TW civilization.

Also an example of a "only in it for the show and popcorn-worthy moments" patron, might be said.

[glitterboy2098]

Simple question, can a Shifter have multiple familiar links? Because i remember the Supernatural Link being described as a variant of this with the roles reversed.

Either way, for those bringing up the "servant of a pantheon" angle, i would like to point out Salkind the Metal Mage (SoT6, pgs.107-111), as an example of a shifter whose one link connects not to a single entity, but a collective, the Drolian Council, ruling body of an extradimensional TW civilization.

Also an example of a "only in it for the show and popcorn-worthy moments" patron, might be said.

ok good example. so i'll update my answer: yes they can but it is rare. and should probably be restricted to NPC's only for power balance reasons.

[SolCannibal]

Simple question, can a Shifter have multiple familiar links? Because i remember the Supernatural Link being described as a variant of this with the roles reversed.

Either way, for those bringing up the "servant of a pantheon" angle, i would like to point out Salkind the Metal Mage (SoT6, pgs.107-111), as an example of a shifter whose one link connects not to a single entity, but a collective, the Drolian Council, ruling body of an extradimensional TW civilization.

Also an example of a "only in it for the show and popcorn-worthy moments" patron, might be said.

ok good example. so i'll update my answer: yes they can but it is rare. and should probably be restricted to NPC's only for power balance reasons.

The Drolian is a particularly insteresting one in that the "connected to a group of entities" is a fluff/roleplay element, while the link per se is pretty much the same from the book, so no real imbalance issue there.

[Orin J.]

Simple question, can a Shifter have multiple familiar links? Because i remember the Supernatural Link being described as a variant of this with the roles reversed.

Either way, for those bringing up the "servant of a pantheon" angle, i would like to point out Salkind the Metal Mage (SoT6, pgs.107-111), as an example of a shifter whose one link connects not to a single entity, but a collective, the Drolian Council, ruling body of an extradimensional TW civilization.

Also an example of a "only in it for the show and popcorn-worthy moments" patron, might be said.

so "yes, but you only get one link's worth of bennies.", okay cool. now it's up to the GM to sort out HOW they decide to parcel out who's giving the reawards, but i guess with six earth elementals it shouldn't be hard for them to agree.

"Let's give him Dig. I like Dig."
"Oh yes, i like that one too. I vote for Dig."
"Oh. Lovely spell. yes."
"Great idea brothers, i would have said the same thing."
"Um, i kind of really need Earthquake for something and-"
"Earthquake is just Dig with less moving. You Will Love Dig."
"YES. We shall give you Dig. The perfect spell."
"-I. Okay. Thank you all."

[ITWastrel]

Flat no.

A shifter may have ONE patron, if for no other reason than game balance. (Not that balance is EVER a concern in Palladium games, ever...)

The one thing I cannot stand from a player is the idiotic adherence to flavor text, immediately followed by a demand for new abilities based on that flavor text. I don't care that humans are 75% water, Hydrokinesis will not allow you to sense or manipulate humans. Sure, you can control electromagnetism, and human blood contains a minute amount of iron, but you CANNOT rip out the enemies blood and use it as a weapon.
Munchkins ruin everyone's fun, kids.

[SolCannibal]

Flat no.

A shifter may have ONE patron, if for no other reason than game balance. (Not that balance is EVER a concern in Palladium games, ever...)

The one thing I cannot stand from a player is the idiotic adherence to flavor text, immediately followed by a demand for new abilities based on that flavor text. I don't care that humans are 75% water, Hydrokinesis will not allow you to sense or manipulate humans. Sure, you can control electromagnetism, and human blood contains a minute amount of iron, but you CANNOT rip out the enemies blood and use it as a weapon.
Munchkins ruin everyone's fun, kids.

Dude, chill.
I just pointed a canon example of it being done in a decently balanced manner, one Orin joked with a little just before your own post. One link, group of entities interacting/working by committee, easy and simple for a GM who's ok with roleplaying a whole group of weirdo entities for one PC's boss.
Different ideas do not automatically have to mean game abuse. You can get creative with making judgements on stuff.

[SolCannibal]

It says "Elementals are curious beings and a few have been known to form links with mortals other than Warlocks. The Elementals seem to have no goals or agenda, and may merely be curious about the Shifter's world."

This option from DB7p45 circa 2003 was notably absent on RUE 125 circa 2005

Ultimate only has:

1) Demon Lords
2) Dark Gods
3) War Gods
4) Magic Gods
5) Nature Spirits

Builder had:
1) Demon Lords
2) Devil Lords
3) Light Gods
4) Dark Gods
5) Vampire Intelligence
6) Elementals
7) Nature Spirits
Warrior Gods
9) Magic Gods

Makes me wonder if removal of the four (Devil/Light/Vamp/Elemental) options were meant to remove them reducing options from nine to five? I expect many Ultimate GMs with Builder will allow those legacy options though.

If i had to guess, they cut "Devil" because it was kind of redundant, Demon Lord does not have to mean Hades, it could be Lords from a number of hell-realms, Dyval included. A case might be made that "light" gods are more about alignment than powerset/resources - it's perfectly possible for a "god of light" to be a nature spirit, warrior or magic god. That said, same case could be made for "Dark Gods", so kind of an arbitrary cut maybe. Vampire Intelligences are kind of their own weird thing when compared to Alien/Supernatural Intelligences in general, so i'm actually quite ok with them not being an option for Shifters, unless it's a set-up for it to be turned in a Master Vampire.

Just my thoughts and opinions anyway. Undeniably personal taste comes in my views, so take everything with a grain of salt.

[Axelmania]

i would like to point out Salkind the Metal Mage (SoT6, pgs.107-111), as an example of a shifter whose one link connects not to a single entity, but a collective, the Drolian Council, ruling body of an extradimensional TW civilization.

Nice, I gotta try to remember this guy as a precedent.

The Drolian is a particularly insteresting one in that the "connected to a group of entities" is a fluff/roleplay element, while the link per se is pretty much the same from the book, so no real imbalance issue there.

One idea that just came to mind regarding 'The Three' from Dweomer.

If they did used to be a single AI as Dunscon imagined, perhaps you could've been a shifter connected to it, and then when it split into 3 beings, you're sort of connected to all 3?

Since individually they're still gods, they might also have priests or shifters connected to them as individuals, although I don't think either is mentioned anywhere in WB16:fom, closest being the High Magus who The Three can sense the deaths of and lend them PPE/HP for making automatons.

If i had to guess, they cut "Devil" because it was kind of redundant, Demon Lord does not have to mean Hades, it could be Lords from a number of hell-realms, Dyval included.

The distinction was kind of interesting though because the benefits you got were slightly different (SDC v PPE was different depending on which realm your Lord ruled in)

A case might be made that "light" gods are more about alignment than powerset/resources - it's perfectly possible for a "god of light" to be a nature spirit, warrior or magic god.
That said, same case could be made for "Dark Gods", so kind of an arbitrary cut maybe.

Agree, I would expect them to be cut together or kept together.

Vampire Intelligences are kind of their own weird thing when compared to Alien/Supernatural Intelligences in general, so i'm actually quite ok with them not being an option for Shifters, unless it's a set-up for it to be turned in a Master Vampire.

I recall the Rifter article for Arzno had a kind of 'vampire priest' which might have made it into the eventual world book with some modifications (will have to check) so perhaps that's meant to replace Shifters linking to vampire AIs?

Using PF2 you could be a Dark Priest of Vald Tegor (who is like a vampire AI and then some) but I can't recall if you could be a priest of normal vampire AIs. Maybe you need to be a hybrid vampire AI + god to get priests? In which case the only other candidate I can think of is Kingu from CB2

Alien intelligences tend to be known for having witches more often than priests, I think? I expect if your run of the mill vampire intelligence can't have priests they can have witches? But maybe the 'vampire priest' of Arzno meant to replace those too? I think they had similar 'gift of body/magic/union' stuff, though I think I'm remembering the original Rifter version, can't recall if that's still the case in the canon World Book for Arzno.

Night Lords got some similar treatment in Dark Conversions. Originall in Nightbane they had 'Priests of Night' but then I think there were 'Nightlands Witch' OCC which is kinda weird I'd call them Nightlords Witch or Baal Witch since Nightlords aren't even native to the Nightlands so it's weird to call them that, could cause confusion with the guys actually linked to the Nightlands: the Shadow Warlocks OCC from Nightbane WB2 Nightlands

[SolCannibal]

i would like to point out Salkind the Metal Mage (SoT6, pgs.107-111), as an example of a shifter whose one link connects not to a single entity, but a collective, the Drolian Council, ruling body of an extradimensional TW civilization.

Nice, I gotta try to remember this guy as a precedent.

Have fun!

The Drolian is a particularly insteresting one in that the "connected to a group of entities" is a fluff/roleplay element, while the link per se is pretty much the same from the book, so no real imbalance issue there.

One idea that just came to mind regarding 'The Three' from Dweomer.

If they did used to be a single AI as Dunscon imagined, perhaps you could've been a shifter connected to it, and then when it split into 3 beings, you're sort of connected to all 3?

Since individually they're still gods, they might also have priests or shifters connected to them as individuals, although I don't think either is mentioned anywhere in WB16:fom, closest being the High Magus who The Three can sense the deaths of and lend them PPE/HP for making automatons.

In a friend's game we went in a kind of opposite direction with that, with the Three actually being quite separate beings that are sharing on the power and knowledge from the unconscious of a comatose/moribund Intelligence/Deity they once served and are still linked to. Moderators of a server of sorts, getting more power than they would naturally have from a kind of "data cloud", main reason why they need certain degree of agreement, not to mess with each other access to all the data/lore/power.

And yeah, pretty sure the High Magus fills the Priest/Shifter/Witch niche for them.

If i had to guess, they cut "Devil" because it was kind of redundant, Demon Lord does not have to mean Hades, it could be Lords from a number of hell-realms, Dyval included.

The distinction was kind of interesting though because the benefits you got were slightly different (SDC v PPE was different depending on which realm your Lord ruled in)

Kind of the point of making the multiple packages in the first place, no?

Vampire Intelligences are kind of their own weird thing when compared to Alien/Supernatural Intelligences in general, so i'm actually quite ok with them not being an option for Shifters, unless it's a set-up for it to be turned in a Master Vampire.

I recall the Rifter article for Arzno had a kind of 'vampire priest' which might have made it into the eventual world book with some modifications (will have to check) so perhaps that's meant to replace Shifters linking to vampire AIs?

Using PF2 you could be a Dark Priest of Vald Tegor (who is like a vampire AI and then some) but I can't recall if you could be a priest of normal vampire AIs. Maybe you need to be a hybrid vampire AI + god to get priests? In which case the only other candidate I can think of is Kingu from CB2

Alien intelligences tend to be known for having witches more often than priests, I think? I expect if your run of the mill vampire intelligence can't have priests they can have witches? But maybe the 'vampire priest' of Arzno meant to replace those too? I think they had similar 'gift of body/magic/union' stuff, though I think I'm remembering the original Rifter version, can't recall if that's still the case in the canon World Book for Arzno.

Night Lords got some similar treatment in Dark Conversions. Originall in Nightbane they had 'Priests of Night' but then I think there were 'Nightlands Witch' OCC which is kinda weird I'd call them Nightlords Witch or Baal Witch since Nightlords aren't even native to the Nightlands so it's weird to call them that, could cause confusion with the guys actually linked to the Nightlands: the Shadow Warlocks OCC from Nightbane WB2 Nightlands

I do remember seeing the Vampire Priest somewhere too, though i can't remember the actual source (WB1 Revised maybe?). All of that said, never really a fan of equating Vampire Intelligences with Supernatural/Alien Intelligences, descriptor notwithstanding, as from memory the VampBlobs never really seemed to stand on the same tier, being much closer to Adult Dragons with some psi added in power level. I tend to prefer treating them as their own powerful but more limited thing (as being on the adult dragon+ tier is nothing to sneeze at either).

Have even gone in the contrary direction, with making a variant of the Nightstalker dragon that has its own vampire-like minions.

[Killer Cyborg]

I look at it the same way as I look at bonding to more than one rune weapon: how many serious relationships do you think you can juggle without anybody's jealousy or other emotions messing things up for everybody, and how long do you think you can juggle them?

Except that snubbed Supernatural Intelligences and/or Deities might be worse to deal with than a girlfriend/boyfriend.

[taalismn]

Given the trouble regular people have with time-shares, do you really see Alien Intelligences haring a mortal and it NOT ending well?

[Axelmania]

I look at it the same way as I look at bonding to more than one rune weapon: how many serious relationships do you think you can juggle without anybody's jealousy or other emotions messing things up for everybody, and how long do you think you can juggle them?

Now am trying to remember which NPC had the biggest rune collection.

[SolCannibal]

I look at it the same way as I look at bonding to more than one rune weapon: how many serious relationships do you think you can juggle without anybody's jealousy or other emotions messing things up for everybody, and how long do you think you can juggle them?

Now am trying to remember which NPC had the biggest rune collection.

Pretty good question. I know i have a listing of the rune weapons of the CB2 deities somewhere among my files but haven't touched it in years (if not decades)...

[carriath]

Is there anything stopping a Shifter from forming Links to the Supernatural with multiple beings?
Sure the beings themselves might be inclined to prevent it as part of their contract, but other beings (like Elementals) aren't likely to care.
Could a potential Warlock (someone favored enough by the Elementals that he would have been a Warlock if not for the fact that he instead trained to be a Shifter) form a Link with two Elementals (one of each element that he would have been if choosing to be a Warlock instead), or maybe even a Shifter of 4 elements if forming links with an Elemental of each element?
Taking it even further, is there anything stopping a Shifter from forming a link with 6 different Earth Elementals, so he is picking up 6 Earth Warlock spells each level?
If you do think it is possible for a Shifter to form multiple links without severing earlier links, do you agree with the assessment that Elementals would be disinclined to bother adding any clauses to prevent multiple links, and do you think there are any other beings that would be equally liberal with offering a link without an exclusivity clause?

If your asking gameplay wise... maybe not. However, consider that the powers the character gets from the elemental are being channeled through them like a power conduit. So maybe 6 earthquakes worth of power coursing through a warlocks mind might be a ... little lethal?

[SolCannibal]

Is there anything stopping a Shifter from forming Links to the Supernatural with multiple beings?
Sure the beings themselves might be inclined to prevent it as part of their contract, but other beings (like Elementals) aren't likely to care.
Could a potential Warlock (someone favored enough by the Elementals that he would have been a Warlock if not for the fact that he instead trained to be a Shifter) form a Link with two Elementals (one of each element that he would have been if choosing to be a Warlock instead), or maybe even a Shifter of 4 elements if forming links with an Elemental of each element?
Taking it even further, is there anything stopping a Shifter from forming a link with 6 different Earth Elementals, so he is picking up 6 Earth Warlock spells each level?
If you do think it is possible for a Shifter to form multiple links without severing earlier links, do you agree with the assessment that Elementals would be disinclined to bother adding any clauses to prevent multiple links, and do you think there are any other beings that would be equally liberal with offering a link without an exclusivity clause?

If your asking gameplay wise... maybe not. However, consider that the powers the character gets from the elemental are being channeled through them like a power conduit. So maybe 6 earthquakes worth of power coursing through a warlocks mind might be a ... little lethal?

Uh, no offense, but ever considered checking the comments and suggestions the other people already gave the OP? Kind of treading terrain long passed through there....

[Axelmania]

I look at it the same way as I look at bonding to more than one rune weapon: how many serious relationships do you think you can juggle without anybody's jealousy or other emotions messing things up for everybody, and how long do you think you can juggle them?

Now am trying to remember which NPC had the biggest rune collection.

Pretty good question. I know i have a listing of the rune weapons of the CB2 deities somewhere among my files but haven't touched it in years (if not decades)...

I remember one of them had some kind of thing that stored six different rune weapons, they might be in the lead.

Of course it's probably easier for gods to juggle jealous rule weapons than for mortals.

[SolCannibal]

I look at it the same way as I look at bonding to more than one rune weapon: how many serious relationships do you think you can juggle without anybody's jealousy or other emotions messing things up for everybody, and how long do you think you can juggle them?

Now am trying to remember which NPC had the biggest rune collection.

Pretty good question. I know i have a listing of the rune weapons of the CB2 deities somewhere among my files but haven't touched it in years (if not decades)...

I remember one of them had some kind of thing that stored six different rune weapons, they might be in the lead.

Of course it's probably easier for gods to juggle jealous rule weapons than for mortals.

Everything seems easier when you're a good, i guess.
(Getting yourself in trouble too, possibly )