Resurrecting a Nega-Psychic?

[taalismn]

Okay, here's a thought experiment(unless I missed something in the canon text):

Is it possible to magically resurrect a dead Nega-psychic? If for no other better reason than to taunt them with 'see, magic works!"

The arguments can be that magical negation/active denial is the product of a deliberate act of WILL guiding existing psychic potential to disrupt mystic energies. No breathing, no heartbeat, no will, no impediment to the magic working.

OR,
Magic disruption is an intrinsic quality of the Nega-psychic's physicality. Even after flatlining, an aura of negative paranormality hovers around the corpse, preventing magic from affecting the body up until a resurrection spell cannot work anyway(and that can lead to a second question: can dead negapsychics be raised as undead?).

So, are we looking at a belief-breaker, an uphill fight, or dividing by zero?

For the record, I'm going with the 'Yes, a NegaPsychic CAN be resurrected...It's just really really hard...likewise with the undead)", but I'm curious to see what other people know/think.

[Shark_Force]

I would expect that once dead, their resistance to magic stops. not sure how you're going to use that to break their belief, though... seeing as how they're dead while you're doing the magic to revive them, they're not particularly able to witness anything. at least, not until they're not dead, in any event, at which point the magic has already done its work.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Good question I can see it both yes and no, for thought out answers for the 1st Q.

The metaphysical anti-magic is a part of the spirit/soul. 'We are luminous being, not bits of lumpy flesh'.

[ITWastrel]

A psychic isn't psychic when dead. the brain is a lump of decomposing fat. If the psychic was alive and floated spoons, once dead, those spoons have no reason to float. If they were pyrokinetic, the fire doesn't move. Dead mind readers don't read minds.

A nega-PSYCHIC when dead is just dead, not nega-dead.

Now, if the spell requires the soul to be willing to resurrect, and the strong willed nega simply refused to be rezzed, then the spell just doesn't work.

Otherwise, you take one dead psychic, add one magic bathtub, and you can unkill him all day long. Heck, bring a knife and make a day of it. "Hey, Nega, welcome back, MAGIC EXISTS! *stab* Welcome back again! Magic is still real! *stab* Hey, formerly dead bastich, who was right? ME! *stab*

[ShadowLogan]

1. Yes. Magic still works on Nega-Psychics, even when they are alive. Mechanically they get bonus to saves and ability to generate "negative" energy to cancel out the "positive" energy used, and since resurrection doesn't require a Save a Nega-Psychic doesn't get any ability to "resist". Now the nega-psychic could generate "negative" energy to make the process more expensive, but since this power is fueled by their own PPE which is released upon death the Nega-Psychic has no PPE available to disrupt the magic with.

2. The Nega-Psychic could still come up with some explanation to "disprove" their magically created resurrection and treat it as natural. Not to mention technically they have access to the Psi power of "Death Trance", so they could in theory "fake it".

3. As for becoming undead.... It all depends on the specifics of the undead's creation process, they might be available to some but not others. Ex. "Create Mummie" or "Create Zombie" from the Wizard Invocation could turn their dead body into a a Mummie/Zombie, but something like a Vampire might not work (they work with the living to start, so Nega-Psychics abilities could disrupt the process).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I'm going to go with that a Nega-Psi can be due to that once there are dead (the spirit/soul has left the body) there is nothing to prevent the spell magic from being used on the body to snap the spirit/soul back into the body via the contagion principles.


I agree with SL's #2 for BTS Nega-psi's.

@ SL: #3 Tal was comparing how difficult it would be to resurrect an Undead being, to how difficult it would be to resurrect a Nega-psi.

[taalismn]

Otherwise, you take one dead psychic, add one magic bathtub, and you can unkill him all day long. Heck, bring a knife and make a day of it. "Hey, Nega, welcome back, MAGIC EXISTS! *stab* Welcome back again! Magic is still real! *stab* Hey, formerly dead bastich, who was right? ME! *stab*

Helluva a way to use a point, to make a point.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Otherwise, you take one dead psychic, add one magic bathtub, and you can unkill him all day long. Heck, bring a knife and make a day of it. "Hey, Nega, welcome back, MAGIC EXISTS! *stab* Welcome back again! Magic is still real! *stab* Hey, formerly dead bastich, who was right? ME! *stab*

Helluva a way to use a point, to make a point.

And when talking about a Nega-Psi....pointless.

bastich: interesting way to get around the censors.

[ITWastrel]

Otherwise, you take one dead psychic, add one magic bathtub, and you can unkill him all day long. Heck, bring a knife and make a day of it. "Hey, Nega, welcome back, MAGIC EXISTS! *stab* Welcome back again! Magic is still real! *stab* Hey, formerly dead bastich, who was right? ME! *stab*

Helluva a way to use a point, to make a point.

And when talking about a Nega-Psi....pointless.

bastich: interesting way to get around the censors.

Stolen with no regrets from the Main Man, Lobo.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm going to go with that a Nega-Psi can be due to that once there are dead (the spirit/soul has left the body) there is nothing to prevent the spell magic from being used on the body to snap the spirit/soul back into the body via the contagion principles.


I agree with SL's #2 for BTS Nega-psi's.

@ SL: #3 Tal was comparing how difficult it would be to resurrect an Undead being, to how difficult it would be to resurrect a Nega-psi.

Re: #3. Even with the change it doesn't change my basic answer. Different Undead have different process in terms of creation, but also of note there could be limits placed on the Resurrection itself (I can think of 4 versions: Wiz Invocation, Defic Power, Tattoo, anti-Nxyla related) which could impact what Resurrections works with a given undead type. For example: returning a soul from Nxyla is possible without any time constraints (the Xombie body has to still be "active"), but a Magic Tattoo wouldn't work on a Wiz. Invocation "Create Zombie" most of the time but a Wiz. Invocation of "Resurrection" has a wider window in order to work (6hr vs 2 month). Then you have the Vampire Undead, which involves a possessing essence fragment (IIRC) to factor into the mix similar to the Xombie (Nxyla).

So any answer in this area is that such an answer really is highly specific to each undead and the Resurrection ability being used. Though one might create a technicality in that "undead" are not "true dead", so Resurrection wouldn't work on them at all given other spell examples (Turn Dead, Create Zombie/Mummy text, and IIRC Lifeblast) that differentiate between dead and undead status.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, here's a thought experiment(unless I missed something in the canon text):

Is it possible to magically resurrect a dead Nega-psychic?

Yup.
Nega-Psychic's powers stop working after they die. Otherwise I'd use their corpses for shields and armor.

If for no other better reason than to taunt them with 'see, magic works!"

"I obviously wasn't actually DEAD, just unconscious or in a coma."

can dead negapsychics be raised as undead?

That's a fun question!


I flipped through some books, but can't find much. Technically, psychics can be turned into vampires, but I'm not seeing anything about whether they retain their psychic powers.
I recall a mention somewhere that Nega-Psychics are impervious to vampire Slow Kill, but I can't find that reference right now for some reason.
I guess it'd depend on how exactly you do it.
The main distinction to keep in mind, I think, is that Nega-Psychics are people, and dead Nega-Psychics stop being people and stop being psychics when they turn into corpses.
Once they're a corpse, standard corpse rules apply.

[Curbludgeon]

I could see narrative value in pumping a few extra PPE into the resurrection, so as to offset any instinctive negation as the psychic's psyche comes online.

Tangentially related, I kinda want to write up a Nega-Psychic Transferred Intelligence that's placed in a body with a PPE battery. Losing partial access to abilities which cost ISP isn't a big loss to the character, and even halving the range of Disrupt Magic doesn't affect much.

[Zer0 Kay]

But even if you resurrected them their nega turns into Nile.
"See magic works."
"No it doesnt obviously someone used an AED on me and ran off with it before I came to. What do you mean I was dead for a week? Obviously you used the AED and then before I came to put me into cryo and after you woke me you drugged me so you could get everything just right for your set here. By the way nice circle but you misspelled Xi it has a silent J between the X and the I, your such an amateur. Call me when you learn to master card tricks like this. (Performs a very good slight of hand trick) tahdah I'm a mage (in a mocking tone).

[taalismn]

But even if you resurrected them their nega turns into Nile.
"See magic works."
"No it doesnt obviously someone used an AED on me and ran off with it before I came to. What do you mean I was dead for a week? Obviously you used the AED and then before I came to put me into cryo and after you woke me you drugged me so you could get everything just right for your set here. By the way nice circle but you misspelled Xi it has a silent J between the X and the I, your such an amateur. Call me when you learn to master card tricks like this. (Performs a very good slight of hand trick) tahdah I'm a mage (in a mocking tone).

"Now I remember why I killed him in the first place."
"Just remember not to bring him back this time."

[Axelmania]

a better question (especially in Rifts) is if this works on a Psi-Nullifier

After all: we know PPE is released upon death, but can we say we know the same about ISP?

Nullifiers instinctively launch ISP at spells (not needing voluntary interference like the BTS1 or Rifts version of the nega-psychic: I think BTS2 version became automatic like a Nullifier though?) so maybe there could be residual ISP in the brain that still cancels spells for a bit after they die?

That said, they probably stop recharging ISP (they can't sleep or meditate) once they die, so it would be a short-term phenomena.

[drewkitty ~..~]

a better question (especially in Rifts) is if this works on a Psi-Nullifier

After all: we know PPE is released upon death, but can we say we know the same about ISP?

Nullifiers instinctively launch ISP at spells (not needing voluntary interference like the BTS1 or Rifts version of the nega-psychic: I think BTS2 version became automatic like a Nullifier though?) so maybe there could be residual ISP in the brain that still cancels spells for a bit after they die?

That said, they probably stop recharging ISP (they can't sleep or meditate) once they die, so it would be a short-term phenomena.

For this subject the differences between the Nega-Psi and the Psi-Nullifier don't matter. They are dead when the spell is used on the body so their powers/abilities are non-functional till they are alive again. At which point the magic is end by itself.

[Axelmania]

Where does it say a Psi-Nullifier needs to be alive for their reflexive power to work?

All that IMO would necessarily stop is VOLUNTARY use of the abilities, such as launching them at targets 100ft away.

Unless death causes ISP to leak out like PPE (that might very well be explained somewhere, I just don't know where) I can't think of a grounds for stopping it.

Just that it would be a finite phenomena since you can't meditate/sleep in death to restore ISP, so it will eventually use itself up.

I guess one explanation might be something like "psi powers are part of your soul and your soul goes someplace else when you die" in which case the ISP auto-resposne would happen within 10ft of the soul wherever it goes.

That whole soul-flight stuff gets hinted at in Dragons and Gods with Utu's background (he delivers souls of the dead on the PF world to various deific realms, it's an automatic process and he can stop it as one of his special powers) so presumably there's some kind of process like that in other worlds with deities (perhaps other entities similar to Utu overseeing it or able to interfere with it) ...

But what about atheists (or theists who believe in a deity who isn't really there) whose souls aren't spoken for and don't have a specific realm slated as their final destination? Where would those souls end up?

One idea I had Astral Plane's void where the souls dissolve into nothing over time Not sure how long it'd take, maybe give souls the same 2x(HP+SDC) as an astral body would have?

One other thing we should keep in mind is that the death of a being usually destroys their dream pool. I don't know if "Valkyries took his soul to Valhalla for Odin" situations might be an exception (deity keeps your soul alive so your dream pool remains).

Another idea might just be the souls fly off into non-dangerous but obscure places (the outer plane is big and cloudy, for example) and the difficulty resurrection spells have over time is tracking down where they went off to and got lost in?

[drewkitty ~..~]

yeah right uh huh

The spirit is not there in the body to reflexively act on magic....just like with Nega-Psi's. Which is why I said there is no functional different between the two for this topic.

Since ISP is just refined PPE (as per the books) that it disperses just like the PPE is a great corollary meaning of the loosing the PPE at death rule.

[ITWastrel]

Where does it say a Psi-Nullifier needs to be alive for their reflexive power to work?

All that IMO would necessarily stop is VOLUNTARY use of the abilities, such as launching them at targets 100ft away.

Unless death causes ISP to leak out like PPE (that might very well be explained somewhere, I just don't know where) I can't think of a grounds for stopping it.

Just that it would be a finite phenomena since you can't meditate/sleep in death to restore ISP, so it will eventually use itself up.

I guess one explanation might be something like "psi powers are part of your soul and your soul goes someplace else when you die" in which case the ISP auto-resposne would happen within 10ft of the soul wherever it goes.

Psi powers are entirely natural, created by the meat inside the psychic's skull. They aren't magic, they aren't part of the soul, they are a mutation found in many humanoids. Think of it as coming from some twist in the cerebellum, some odd combination of naturally occurring chemicals, or as the natural response to a slightly larger corpus callosum. All these are non-magical, and all these are just meat. Once dead, the psychic is a corpse, and that meat stops doing anything and starts to rot.

ISP isn't a magic fluid that leaks out, it's a broadly defined concept of how much effort a psychic can sustain before exhaustion. An abstract game statistic, like hit points, that lets the player know how many more mind bolts "Marvo the mind crusher" can muster before the headache is too bad to concentrate anymore.

I'm afraid that a dead nega-psychic is just as easy, or difficult, to resurrect as any other guy. Once he's back, though, be ready for him to deny the video evidence and swear the footage of you dumping his dismembered corpse into the Techno-wizard resurrect-o-matic 9000 is all CGI fakery. Dead-fakes, if you will.

[taalismn]

[
I'm afraid that a dead nega-psychic is just as easy, or difficult, to resurrect as any other guy. Once he's back, though, be ready for him to deny the video evidence and swear the footage of you dumping his dismembered corpse into the Techno-wizard resurrect-o-matic 9000 is all CGI fakery. Dead-fakes, if you will.

"I was just napping."
"That isn't real blood. It's ketchup."
"Nice light show, but I'd have preferred you got me to a REAL doctor."

[Axelmania]

Maybe the bigger problem is if your resurrection doesn't auto-heal wounds, you would be prevented from doing follow-up heals to replenish lost HP post-rez

I think you can cast healing spells on the corpse ahead of time to get around that though, right? Close gaping chest wounds, re-attach limbs with whatever spell does that, and so forth.

The spirit is not there in the body to reflexively act on magic...

I don't recall there being any fixed rules on how long it takes a spirit to exit a corpse or where it goes afterward.

I'm thinking the post-casting window for "Ley Line Ghost" could work as a decent guideline though.

Since ISP is just refined PPE (as per the books) that it disperses just like the PPE is a great corollary meaning of the loosing the PPE at death rule.

Unless the refinement helps make it more consistent.

If we take some kind of "spirits take PPE and ISP with them" approach, then maybe "PPE released at death" is more like "the spirit is there but it's super easy to take PPE from them"?

Although I think the time you have to use PPE from a blood sacrifice is probably shorter than the Ley Line Ghost window...

[drewkitty ~..~]

If the char is not dead the spirit is still there.
If the char is dead the spirit is not there.

It is pretty simple to understand.

To help you understand the word 'spirit' by quoting: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

[Zer0 Kay]

If the char is not dead the spirit is still there.
If the char is dead the spirit is not there.

It is pretty simple to understand.

To help you understand the word 'spirit' by quoting: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

But Delenn says we're "star stuff".

[drewkitty ~..~]

If the char is not dead the spirit is still there.
If the char is dead the spirit is not there.

It is pretty simple to understand.

To help you understand the word 'spirit' by quoting: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

But Delenn says we're "star stuff".

Star stuff and crude matter are the same thing. Just put differently.

[taalismn]

[

Star stuff and crude matter are the same thing. Just put differently.

And calling us 'star$#!+" just causes contradiction.

[Zer0 Kay]

[

Star stuff and crude matter are the same thing. Just put differently.

And calling us 'star$#!+" just causes contradiction.

lol

Who said star crap? You said star crap. Did you assume stuff meant crap or are you posing your opinion that B5 is crap? Delenn didn't say starcrap she definately said stuff.

[Curbludgeon]

I don't recall there being any fixed rules on how long it takes a spirit to exit a corpse or where it goes afterward.

I'm thinking the post-casting window for "Ley Line Ghost" could work as a decent guideline though

This is a valid question, one pivotal to this discussion, and I would be interested in seeing page citations regarding it.

[taalismn]

[

lol

Who said star crap? You said star crap. Did you assume stuff meant crap or are you posing your opinion that B5 is crap? Delenn didn't say starcrap she definately said stuff.

Because if you see stars as living things with a life cycle...well, the materials of which we are made of are not the living matter of stars, but the ash and the waste.....
Kinda pretentious to think of ourselves as the intended offspring of stars when we're really a side effect. 'Divine right of kings' vs 'food for worms' sort of thing, Ya'know?"

[drewkitty ~..~]

*shakes head*
The time Frame for that spell more indicated how powerful that spell is. Not when the spirit leaves the body.

The difference between being alive and being dead is that there is no spirit in the body when they are dead. It is a quite simple understand.

It is not like how the decomposing dead body making noises for a number of days, to fool the living to think that the spirit stays around for a couple days after death. This was the belief of the Jews around 33 AD. Thou, by this time this belief has be scientifically proven to be fraudulent.

[Curbludgeon]

Self-indulgently pontificating is not the same thing as a page citation.

[Zer0 Kay]

[

lol

Who said star crap? You said star crap. Did you assume stuff meant crap or are you posing your opinion that B5 is crap? Delenn didn't say starcrap she definately said stuff.

Because if you see stars as living things with a life cycle...well, the materials of which we are made of are not the living matter of stars, but the ash and the waste.....
Kinda pretentious to think of ourselves as the intended offspring of stars when we're really a side effect. 'Divine right of kings' vs 'food for worms' sort of thing, Ya'know?"

ah but maybe where are the flaked off skin or the sweat. Seeing as how a star consumes itself therefore the detritus wouldn't be excrement but it would still be waste material. So... most likely urine. We are star pee.

[Zer0 Kay]

[

lol

Who said star crap? You said star crap. Did you assume stuff meant crap or are you posing your opinion that B5 is crap? Delenn didn't say starcrap she definately said stuff.

Because if you see stars as living things with a life cycle...well, the materials of which we are made of are not the living matter of stars, but the ash and the waste.....
Kinda pretentious to think of ourselves as the intended offspring of stars when we're really a side effect. 'Divine right of kings' vs 'food for worms' sort of thing, Ya'know?"

besides Delenn didn't associate us as being children of stars. She said "star stuff", as in same matter.

I on the other hand believe it is impossible for over 8.7 million self replicating mutable species on a rock with the perfect material for sustaining them at the perfect place in a star system where they are not frozen or fried is placed just so, in the arm of a galaxy so, that they can see into its core and out into the void to be random chance. But whatever.

[taalismn]

[

I on the other hand believe it is impossible for over 8.7 million self replicating mutable species on a rock with the perfect material for sustaining them at the perfect place in a star system where they are not frozen or fried is placed just so, in the arm of a galaxy so, that they can see into its core and out into the void to be random chance. But whatever.

Ever read the David Brin short story where it's discovered/Implied by inference that life on Earth is the result of ancient astronauts flushing their toilets on primitive Earth? And it's the BEST thing that could have happened to us when we encounter the stuck-up lineage-obsessed Galactics?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Self-indulgently pontificating is not the same thing as a page citation.

Having to point out the obvious to those 'argument trolls' that endlessly bring up the irrelevant citations (to just to 'not lose' the discussion) is getting to be tiring

[Curbludgeon]

Questions about the minutiae of resurrection are the only relevant factor in a thread about the in-game ramifications of a certain type of resurrection. Stating of personal opinion is irrelevant, and pretending that it is not only obvious, but the necessarily correct interpretation of the rules is disingenuous. Considering your signature, perhaps you might find this sort of questioning less tiresome if your behavior wasn't so openly hypocritical.

To taalismn, I really like what Brin I've read, but I've largely skipped his Uplift stuff, which is what I think that's from. I enjoy how fun spins on Ancient Astronauts like that can easily poke fun at "models" like the anthropic principle, which is just ingelligent design in spaaaace.

[taalismn]

To taalismn, I really like what Brin I've read, but I've largely skipped his Uplift stuff, which is what I think that's from. I enjoy how fun spins on Ancient Astronauts like that can easily poke fun at "models" like the anthropic principle, which is just ingelligent design in spaaaace.

Nope...It wasn't from his Uplift stuff...standalone short story. Same idea, different mechanics,, but the Galactics are even more stuck-up...and their reaction outright comical when somebody remembers the sudden explosion in cellular diversity in the primordial soup of ancient Earth(seems by Galactic law there is no statute of limitations on what amounts to child support).

[Kraynic]

Someday I want to throw players into the world of "The Practice Effect", but only long enough for them to start getting an idea of what is going on. I have (so far) been far to lazy to actually do it though.

[taalismn]

Someday I want to throw players into the world of "The Practice Effect", but only long enough for them to start getting an idea of what is going on. I have (so far) been far to lazy to actually do it though.

Because you KNOW they'll try to figure out how to bring a giant robot into the environment, or smuggle one of the Effect generators out.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Questions about the minutiae of resurrection are the only relevant factor in a thread about the in-game ramifications of a certain type of resurrection. Stating of personal opinion is irrelevant, and pretending that it is not only obvious, but the necessarily correct interpretation of the rules is disingenuous. Considering your signature, perhaps you might find this sort of questioning less tiresome if your behavior wasn't so openly hypocritical.

..snip.

The resurrection spell work on the body to call the spirit back to it via contagion, which by-passes any reflex or automatic actions that the spirit may or may not have when it is by itself.

They way I read the LLG spell that it works the same, but it only makes the spirit "stay". And it is only after the spirit has been called back to 'Stay' does it have any psi abilities. Of course the NG and that other one have powers that negate magic and psi. So the only questions Axe is bringing up when mentioning the LLG spell are: 1) how long does the spirit stays before negating the 'stay put magic and 2) (if they can't negate the 'stay put' magic) how long will it take for them to go crazy because they are very much what they can't believe in? Or one might put it how long till they become sane enough to recognize they are what their living self couldn't accept as being real?

As for my sig...There is no canon answer to this topic. And you can see the OP knew there is not canon answer because T was asking for opinions.

[Curbludgeon]

The resurrection spell work[sic] on the body to call the spirit back to it via contagion, which by-passes any reflex or automatic actions that the spirit may or may not have when it is by itself.

Page citation needed.

I don't recall there being any fixed rules on how long it takes a spirit to exit a corpse or where it goes afterward.

I'm thinking the post-casting window for "Ley Line Ghost" could work as a decent guideline though

This is a valid question, one pivotal to this discussion, and I would be interested in seeing page citations regarding it.

While the question is only implied, please note the lack of invitation to hold court. While the OP might have solicited your opinion I did not.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Like with all things that are greatly argued over because there is no canon text to say one way or the other, Like this one, there are pages in any PB gamebook to cite about the nuts and bolts of how magic works..

Did I bring in knowledge from other media, yep. Cause that is where the nuts and bolts of fantasy magic are talked about.

This is unlike other posts where the Published Rules are clear in what they say where I can and do say what the canon text literally says.

[Axelmania]

This is a valid question,
one pivotal to this discussion,
and I would be interested in seeing page citations regarding it.

BOM134 says Range is "by touch at the moment of death"
BOM135 end note "performed in the last moments of life (within 30 minutes of expiring)"

I think this only means 30 minutes before (not 30 minutes after) because "last moments of life" are pre-death, not post-death (those would be "first moments of death")

The final line "when the individual dies, he becomes" confirms this, so LLG is a dead end for my theory of a spell giving a guideline.

Now I'm wondering if I was thinking of some other spell that could be more useful... will keep looking.

134's "moment" and 135's "last moments" bothers me =/ Can you have a 30-minute moment?

The time Frame for that spell more indicated how powerful that spell is.
Not when the spirit leaves the body.

I agree in many cases, there is an impression of "Resurrection" abilities actually calling spirits from other dimensions.

Utu's fluff in particular has the idea that a priest resurrecting his followers requires the deity to "release" the souls... but that in this case it couldn't happen because the deity never actually got the souls due to Utu stopping them en-route.

*checks D&G 125* okay yeah this was a Priest of Darkness for Anubis after "The Great Battle". Humentop (for some reason I thought was male but "she" is used later) even tries to brute-force the low % by making 4 attempts.

The "nameless Summoner" kinda scares me. I want to know who this "knowledgeable entity" was... who are "the knowing ones" ? NLS seems wise enough NOT to call on Utu after KAE suggests it (but then Humentop does) and Utu appearing probably meant he had a follower there watching (pg 87)

Utu "Anubis cannot release what Anubis has not received."
Humentop "I know I have revived the recent dead, whose souls had not yet reached Anubis"
Utu "It is my privilege to let those souls in my keeping return to their bodies. Indeed, I have been known to
delay a soul for just that purpose."

Obviously this mechanic is only a guarantee for the PF world (though it would be cool if there were reaper-gods like this to govern soul-passage on all planets) but what we do know in that case is Utu is involved.

Pg 126's "Stop the Flow" ability that prevents souls from departing their bodies actually PREVENTS DEATH ("no matter how terrible their injury, or destroyed their body". However "depart the body" might just be "we do something like astral projection at death and then Utu comes and severs the cord with his scythe". It doesn't actually require that "leaving the body means automatically leaving the dimension".

We also know from 126 that re Sahtalus and his Dyval buddies: "one of the first things they did was attempt to steal away souls that were in transit."

So there is actually some mechanic involved here for these Lords to actually grab in-transit souls, and also for Utu to go around and grab them.

The "stop them cold" description of what Utu did against Dyval sounds similar to "Stop the Flow". I don't think that's limited to "those who die have souls locked in their bodies" but also "souls which have already left the body can't move or be moved unless they have already left the Palladium World" (like for example, going through a Deific Portal into a Deific Realm)

Since his powers over souls are limited to that planet, that sounds like souls travel physically through space in a world prior to going to other dimensions. That's how Dyval was able to target them, that's how Utu was able to stop Dyval.

In the past I would've relied on Astral Projection for some guideliens. I'm sure that's been called 'soul' somewhere along the line in a Nightbane book, besides "Soul in a Jar" which is more likey "half a soul in a jar" IMO.

Another thing I might've relied on would be the Mind Walking from N&SS/Mystic China.

During the Minion War we got some new insights into what souls are (including a bit of a nerf to Souldrinker weapons: they just make you go a little gray+pasty instead of making you drop into a corpse) to use though. Something I don't think souldrinker descripts in PF/D+G necessarily hinted at (nor Rifts) prior to DB10 though.

Just going with "Soul Stealing" of "Soul Catchers" (pg 66 of Hades) it mentions "soul can be held captive for one decade per experience" but I'm not suer what happens on the 11th year of 1st level Catcher: does the soul die? Does it escape and someone else can capture it?

"consumed soul is lost, but not destroyed" is comforting (unlike "soul eating" by Deathkiss/Tentac which I'm pretty sure is Palladium's 2 only guaranteed means of permadeaths)

Apparently "consumed" souls (burned up for PPE and such) can "live" a further 6-10 years in "limbo state". Past then I guess they "die" (whatever this means... whether destruction like from Deathkiss, or passing to Valhalla/etc)

It's clear when a Catcher uses "Stealing" there's still a link (regardless of distance) between the soul and the still-living body though, because the body dies exactly 1 year after the soul.

"no savings throw because he has no soul" is an important distinction here... is that also the case for Astral Projection or Mind Walk?

Soul Harvesters and Nxla might be interesting to consult here too... you can do a ritual to trap a soul in the body... or if a Nxla fragment possesses a body, the soul is somehow sent to Nxla (perhaps through the open portal?)

WB12 Psyscape also covers Exorcism on a Harvester (p20) or on a Xombie (p21). This seems to line up with Hades66: there's still a "link" between the body left behind and the lost soul, because the Xombie is the target of the exorcism, and in combination with an open portal to Nxla, brings back the original soul too.

Pg22 also allows it to be done in person on where the soul is (Nxla's body) to release massive numbers. Unless you actually have a Xombie there and include them in the ritual, the soul you want won't necessarily be included ni those numbers (random chance I guess? How many are in there?)

The end Note requires targeting a soul w/o Xombie body (presumably because it was destroyed) needs either knowing the True Name of the soul, or that "someone who loved him" participates in ritual. Not clear if this is possible if the Xombie hasn't been destroyed (maybe not).

If it was then I'm not sure if the soul would kick out the Xombie (like previous condition) or just move on. If it moved on: would the Xombie continue to exist, or just drop dead because the link is gone? IE does Nxla still need to have a soul in his possession to control the Xombie whose body previously belonged to that soul?

Final line is "released from Nxla and allowed to move on in the spirit world". Have we heard "the spirit world" in any other context? Sounds very "astral plane" to me. Maybe the Nunnehi in Spirit West could be of some help here...

One thing we do know is what happens to astral projectors with dead bodies: RUE 171 "forever lost and will die, fade away, within six hours".

Now you could take that to mean "when the astral body dies, the soul is then released from either wherever the astral body is, or maybe where the corpse is, it's totally separate", but is there really anything preventing it from being the same thing?

IE maybe Utu has a 6-hour window (well, or with 1 minute = week, 360 weeks if they portal to the Outer Plane?) to stop "Astral Fading" and maybe everyone just "astral projects" as they die, regardless of whether or not they're psi?

Utu's got "sense/locate/capture all departed souls 98%." with no listed range limits (presumably PF world... hey here's a theory, what if Utu is actually just the 1/2 power Manifestation of some grander interdimensional reaper? 127 mentions he has no Manifestations/Avatars himself...) so he should have no problem grabbing them even if they can't portal themselves to the inner plane.

He can turn his puny 75mph flight into 600mph by using Astral Travel 98% (not exactly sure what happens if he fails a roll... try again for free next melee attack?) and if Mach isn't enough, he has 98% teleport with no range limits (not sure what happens if he fails... 1 attempt per melee attack? 30 secons to cast like Teleport Superior?)

If he has trouble multitasking, he can free-summon ANY type of demon (who worships him) from Hades. Unlike Lords he doesn't even have a "2d6 per day" limit or similar.

RUE 172 establishes via Commune with Spirits that "spirits" collectively identifies "Astral Travelers" and "Astral Beings" and "imprisoned souls and life essences in rune weapons". So it's not that far a step to just declare "they're all souls and all use the same rules".

[Curbludgeon]

Squee. I look forward to digging into this.