Armor-Piercing Missiles

[Giant2005]

I'm sure that I once read somewhere of a bonus for AP Missiles that isn't immediately made obvious by their stat block (I think it is an increased crit range or something but I could be wrong about that), but now for the life of me I cannot find what I am talking about.
Does anyone know of any bonuses specific to AP Missles and can point me in the right direction as to where to find that information?

[tobefrnk]

It may have been a house rule, but I’ve been playing with Armor Piercing doing a critical strike/double damage on rolls of 18/19/20

[Axelmania]

It may have been a house rule, but I’ve been playing with Armor Piercing doing a critical strike/double damage on rolls of 18/19/20

It's x2 damage on a modified 18/19/20 and x3 on a natural 20
(I guess total x6 if you roll a 20 and it's still 18+ after applying penalties and bonuses)
((that's pretty big though, so if you just want to make that +100% +200% = +300% then you could just make that x4 damage)

RUE 362 Missile Damage Notes

easy to overlook if only looking at the tables on 256-257

[Omegasgundam]

It may have been a house rule, but I’ve been playing with Armor Piercing doing a critical strike/double damage on rolls of 18/19/20

It's x2 damage on a modified 18/19/20 and x3 on a natural 20
(I guess total x6 if you roll a 20 and it's still 18+ after applying penalties and bonuses)
((that's pretty big though, so if you just want to make that +100% +200% = +300% then you could just make that x4 damage)

RUE 362 Missile Damage Notes

easy to overlook if only looking at the tables on 256-257

Its not nothing, and they are the best option if you can't use Plasma for some reason.

[Mack]

Personally, I like to apply the AP rule to railguns as well. It gives a good reason to lug around a 100+ pound weapon instead of 7 pound laser.

The other thing I love about that rule is that it applies to a modified roll. So if the shooter has a hefty strike bonus the x2 range becomes much larger. Suppose there's a +3 Strike after all bonuses/penalties, that results in a roll of 15-19 hitting for x2 damage, and x3 on a Nat 20. Really good damage boost, and puts the fear in people that a good dice roll will shred a target.

[Giant2005]

RUE 362 Missile Damage Notes

easy to overlook if only looking at the tables on 256-257

Thank you! I was making the mistake of letting those missile tables distract me.

[Giant2005]

Personally, I like to apply the AP rule to railguns as well. It gives a good reason to lug around a 100+ pound weapon instead of 7 pound laser.

The other thing I love about that rule is that it applies to a modified roll. So if the shooter has a hefty strike bonus the x2 range becomes much larger. Suppose there's a +3 Strike after all bonuses/penalties, that results in a roll of 15-19 hitting for x2 damage, and x3 on a Nat 20. Really good damage boost, and puts the fear in people that a good dice roll will shred a target.

NG1 has some AP rounds for Railguns, so you don't even need to house rule it.
Nice catch on the modified 18-20 thing. I didn't even notice that.

[Mack]

NG1 has some AP rounds for Railguns, so you don't even need to house rule it.

Thanks for the reference; I haven't read NG1. But I like to apply it to all rail guns, including the Boom Gun. Given how many bonuses a GB pilot can rack up, it gives a good power boost to offset some of the heavy MDC robots that have been rolled out in the last 30 years.

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, I like to apply the AP rule to railguns as well. It gives a good reason to lug around a 100+ pound weapon instead of 7 pound laser.

Agreed.
I'm not sure if I've used that house rule, but I've definitely seen it before, and I like it. Palladium should have always done a lot more with damage type differences.

[Axelmania]

I want armor-piercing Throwing Stones

[Blackwater Sniper]

I've always found something wrong in battle with only energy-based weapons.

I like the recoil of a chain-gun and the way the impact throws the target back off its feet (if there's anything left).

You can't change your ammo/damage type with a laser or plasma gun, it's all *pew*pew*pew*

At least with railguns you have a limited number of slugs before the need to reload. It makes the player think rather than just act.

Smarter players are better players.

[Warshield73]

I've commented on this before but there is just not enough (read almost none) differentiation between weapon effects in Palladium. Lasers should do different kinds of damage than rail-guns, particle beams should have ancillary effects that are different from ion weapons.

Likewise plasma missiles should have different benefits and drawbacks from frags, HE and AP.

[Orin J.]

I've commented on this before but there is just not enough (read almost none) differentiation between weapon effects in Palladium. Lasers should do different kinds of damage than rail-guns, particle beams should have ancillary effects that are different from ion weapons.

Likewise plasma missiles should have different benefits and drawbacks from frags, HE and AP.

having tried this (admittedly in an entirely different game system) you find that it gets very annoying to GM very fast as the players encourage each other to micromanage things to an absurd level.

then again, maybe some GMs like their players trying to trade ammo with NPCs to the point the thing the GM is sabotaging them if they can't get what they "need".

[Warshield73]

I've commented on this before but there is just not enough (read almost none) differentiation between weapon effects in Palladium. Lasers should do different kinds of damage than rail-guns, particle beams should have ancillary effects that are different from ion weapons.

Likewise plasma missiles should have different benefits and drawbacks from frags, HE and AP.

having tried this (admittedly in an entirely different game system) you find that it gets very annoying to GM very fast as the players encourage each other to micromanage things to an absurd level.

then again, maybe some GMs like their players trying to trade ammo with NPCs to the point the thing the GM is sabotaging them if they can't get what they "need".

It doesn't have to be that big of a deal. The old Star Frontiers game had different advantages and defenses for different kinds of energy weapons, the West End Star Wars had different rules for laser, turbo lasers and ion with proton torpedoes having different benefits than concussion missiles.

We already have this in the missiles to a certain extent. AP missiles do more damage and have less blast radius, fragmentation missiles do less damage with greater blast radius while plasma has great damage and blast radius but lots of supernatural creatures are immune to it. And if it is universal all p-beams behave this way, all ion weapons have these effects, then really all it is going to do is cause PCs to equip themselves and especially there vehicles with a variety of weapons to make use of the effects.

Characters already do this a player with a grenade launcher or missile launcher often mixes types to make use of the advantages each have, this would just be increasing the differentiation.

One example, i have always thought that if you get hit by plasma you should be on fire for a time so you take a little damage every melee for a few rounds. So if your in a 26 foot tall NG Gunwolf and you get hit by 4 plasma mini-missiles you take damage from the hit and you keep burning for another few rounds. Great time for one of your teammates to have fire retardant missiles or the mage to have extinguish fire.

[slade2501]

Personally, I like to apply the AP rule to railguns as well. It gives a good reason to lug around a 100+ pound weapon instead of 7 pound laser.

The other thing I love about that rule is that it applies to a modified roll. So if the shooter has a hefty strike bonus the x2 range becomes much larger. Suppose there's a +3 Strike after all bonuses/penalties, that results in a roll of 15-19 hitting for x2 damage, and x3 on a Nat 20. Really good damage boost, and puts the fear in people that a good dice roll will shred a target.

Damn, I like that. Makes Railguns downright scary compared to a pulse laser.

[slade2501]

I've commented on this before but there is just not enough (read almost none) differentiation between weapon effects in Palladium. Lasers should do different kinds of damage than rail-guns, particle beams should have ancillary effects that are different from ion weapons.

Likewise plasma missiles should have different benefits and drawbacks from frags, HE and AP.

I always treat Plasma missiles or grenades like being inside a fireball, applying damage to ALL locations of an armor or PA inside the blast radius. A solid sphere of fire, anime style, with a contained short blast radius.

[Warshield73]

I've commented on this before but there is just not enough (read almost none) differentiation between weapon effects in Palladium. Lasers should do different kinds of damage than rail-guns, particle beams should have ancillary effects that are different from ion weapons.

Likewise plasma missiles should have different benefits and drawbacks from frags, HE and AP.

I always treat Plasma missiles or grenades like being inside a fireball, applying damage to ALL locations of an armor or PA inside the blast radius. A solid sphere of fire, anime style, with a contained short blast radius.

I have thought about doing that in the past, it just seems like a lot of work. I have thought about a rule that anything with a blast radius would hit like 4 different parts or 1D4 just to limit the amount of work but still lots of book keeping.

[Kagashi]

The advantage of the heavy rail guns has always been it avoids Impervious to Energy spells and the like. I think there is one super power in HU2 that soaks kinetic damage, and the Megaversal Legion has a force field that parries kinetic rounds. That's about it. Generally, if a rail gun hits...its doing damage.

[The Beast]

I've commented on this before but there is just not enough (read almost none) differentiation between weapon effects in Palladium. Lasers should do different kinds of damage than rail-guns, particle beams should have ancillary effects that are different from ion weapons.

Likewise plasma missiles should have different benefits and drawbacks from frags, HE and AP.

Not only that, but there should be a damage penalty when using the wrong weapon type on the wrong target. Anti-personnel weapons are good against soft targets (like foot soldiers) but wouldn't really do much against hardened targets (bunkers, tanks, so forth).

[Shark_Force]

The advantage of the heavy rail guns has always been it avoids Impervious to Energy spells and the like. I think there is one super power in HU2 that soaks kinetic damage, and the Megaversal Legion has a force field that parries kinetic rounds. That's about it. Generally, if a rail gun hits...its doing damage.

I do think that from a game balance standpoint, railguns could use a slight advantage. for weapons that aren't mounted on a vehicle, they're extremely heavy and difficult to use. when compared to other vehicle-mounted weapons, they're far worse in terms of ammo capacity (most vehicles with mounted weaponry being able to supply unlimited ammo to energy weapons).

their usefulness against targets that are impervious to energy is great, of course, but that is pretty rare (unless you're fighting a spellcaster), and there are lighter weapons that can also deal physical damage out there.

[Warshield73]

I've commented on this before but there is just not enough (read almost none) differentiation between weapon effects in Palladium. Lasers should do different kinds of damage than rail-guns, particle beams should have ancillary effects that are different from ion weapons.

Likewise plasma missiles should have different benefits and drawbacks from frags, HE and AP.

Not only that, but there should be a damage penalty when using the wrong weapon type on the wrong target. Anti-personnel weapons are good against soft targets (like foot soldiers) but wouldn't really do much against hardened targets (bunkers, tanks, so forth).

As a general rule I prefer to use either damage penalties or bonuses for one item.

Now you could damage penalties assigned by defenses of the targets and bonuses from the weapon doing the damage based on what it is hitting.

If you have the base damage low enough and then levels of bonuses for what it is hitting then it should still function as you desire.

The advantage of the heavy rail guns has always been it avoids Impervious to Energy spells and the like. I think there is one super power in HU2 that soaks kinetic damage, and the Megaversal Legion has a force field that parries kinetic rounds. That's about it. Generally, if a rail gun hits...its doing damage.

I do think that from a game balance standpoint, railguns could use a slight advantage. for weapons that aren't mounted on a vehicle, they're extremely heavy and difficult to use. when compared to other vehicle-mounted weapons, they're far worse in terms of ammo capacity (most vehicles with mounted weaponry being able to supply unlimited ammo to energy weapons).

their usefulness against targets that are impervious to energy is great, of course, but that is pretty rare (unless you're fighting a spellcaster), and there are lighter weapons that can also deal physical damage out there.

In general, in Rifts and Phase World, rail guns have a little more range and have a physical impact, including a knock down chance against infantry and small targets so that is a minor advantage. Truthfully though the fact that it gets around energy resistance and ammo is so cheap with payloads so large that they might as well be unlimited makes them at least as good if not better than most energy weapons.

[Orin J.]

i feel like people tend to overlook that lasers are explictly described as being invisible flickers of light that make no noise in the rulebooks, which makes them a premier sniper's weapon regardless of range simply because they are very hard to pinpoint if you're under fire and from where which seems like Great advantage to me.

[Shark_Force]

In general, in Rifts and Phase World, rail guns have a little more range and have a physical impact, including a knock down chance against infantry and small targets so that is a minor advantage. Truthfully though the fact that it gets around energy resistance and ammo is so cheap with payloads so large that they might as well be unlimited makes them at least as good if not better than most energy weapons.

I mean, if we're talking about stuff that a cyborg can carry, or crew-served weapons, I don't think railguns are that great in terms of range.

the ammo also isn't that great... even if we're talking about vehicle-mounted, it's usually around 40-50 bursts at most. that's nice and all, but it's not really all that much more than carrying 3-4 e-clips, which are much more portable.

the knockdown is not unique to railguns as far as I can tell. the GMG (page 35) indicates that "The impact from a powerful explosion, parrying a powerful energy blast, or a powerful punch/impact from a robot or supernatural creature..." (and a variety of further examples, none of which are specifically even "railguns") can use the knockdown table. now, certainly, I'd say that railguns can do it. but so can "parrying a powerful energy blast", and I'm inclined to assume that if parrying a powerful energy blast can knock you over, so can failing to parry one.

so again, we're left with things that are immune to energy. now, it's nice to have that. but let's take a look at the NG-101 for a moment. the gun weighs 128 pounds. the power pack weighs another 80 pounds. one belt of ammo is 25 pounds, with 10 bursts worth of ammo, or you can have a belt with 4 times that (and presumably 4 times the weight). that's 300 pounds if you're looking to cash in on *any* sort of ammo advantage at all, because otherwise you've got the same capacity as a pulse laser pretty much (and the damage is also fairly close to what you'd expect from a pulse laser as well... in fact, the L-20 has the same damage but *more* than 10 bursts even in a short e-clip).

so yeah... works against energy-immune targets. that's great and all, but it isn't exactly something I can carry around as a sidearm without displacing a lot of stuff I'd use far more frequently. call me crazy, but that's a heck of a trade-off going from something that I can sling over my shoulder or have hanging from a strap in almost-ready position to something that I'd need 3-4 people to haul around and set up.

in contrast, I could carry around an NG laser pistol with a built-in grenade launcher. it has only a 6-round magazine for the grenades, but it's a sidearm that I can carry around comfortably in case of an emergency requiring special equipment. likewise, I could carry around a triax pump pistol or rifle, to give some other reasonably available equipment options that can solve roughly the same problem, except minus about 290 pounds (or more, depending on the railgun). heck, if I'm going to go with heavy weapons, I can use a mini-missile launcher and out-range the rail gun (and since I'm going to be using a physical damage option, it'll be armour-piercing, amusingly enough). or maybe use a grenade launcher... there are some excellent grenade launcher options that are still far lighter than a railgun, and which can even hit a nice big area.

now admittedly, these are all more expensive per-shot in the long run if you use them frequently. but that's the thing: damaging targets that are immune to energy weapons is a pretty niche benefit. there aren't a lot of things that need it. it's good to have an option, but you can buy a heck of a lot of ammunition for your physical damage sidearm of choice before the price per shot catches up to the higher base price of most railguns.

[Orin J.]

the GMG (page 35) indicates that "The impact from a powerful explosion, parrying a powerful energy blast, or a powerful punch/impact from a robot or supernatural creature..." (and a variety of further examples, none of which are specifically even "railguns") can use the knockdown table. now, certainly, I'd say that railguns can do it. but so can "parrying a powerful energy blast", and I'm inclined to assume that if parrying a powerful energy blast can knock you over, so can failing to parry one.

i'm pretty sure that bit about parryng an energy blast is a holdover from HU, the energy weapons in Rifts do not have a kinetic component otherwise they'd have recoil. one of those times palladium's love of waxing poetic sends the wrong message.

this rules system(s) is confusing at times, isn't it?..........

[Warshield73]

the GMG (page 35) indicates that "The impact from a powerful explosion, parrying a powerful energy blast, or a powerful punch/impact from a robot or supernatural creature..." (and a variety of further examples, none of which are specifically even "railguns") can use the knockdown table. now, certainly, I'd say that railguns can do it. but so can "parrying a powerful energy blast", and I'm inclined to assume that if parrying a powerful energy blast can knock you over, so can failing to parry one.

i'm pretty sure that bit about parryng an energy blast is a holdover from HU, the energy weapons in Rifts do not have a kinetic component otherwise they'd have recoil. one of those times palladium's love of waxing poetic sends the wrong message.

this rules system(s) is confusing at times, isn't it?..........

The GMG isn't that great on this but the CB1 and the clarification on energy weapons in RUE make it clear that lasers especially have no impact while weapons like plasma have some but not as much as projectiles.

As for the use of rail guns I agree that as the current technology is listed in Rifts rail guns are much better used as weapons on large vehicles,, borgs, fixed fortification, and as a back up /replacement for the main weapon on power armors.

The thing is there are enough magical creatures, demons, and people to make the immunity to energy resistance more than enough reason to carry them. The other thing to consider is the versatility of ammo. By switching to wood or silver ammunition these weapons can be used to fight creatures that energy weapons will always be useless against.

I'm not saying I would ever have a tech character go without a good pulse laser or ion rifle but rail guns make great secondary or heavy weapons.

[Hotrod]

Personally, I like to apply the AP rule to railguns as well. It gives a good reason to lug around a 100+ pound weapon instead of 7 pound laser.

Agreed.
I'm not sure if I've used that house rule, but I've definitely seen it before, and I like it. Palladium should have always done a lot more with damage type differences.

It would make boom guns even more terrifying.

[Warshield73]

Personally, I like to apply the AP rule to railguns as well. It gives a good reason to lug around a 100+ pound weapon instead of 7 pound laser.

Agreed.
I'm not sure if I've used that house rule, but I've definitely seen it before, and I like it. Palladium should have always done a lot more with damage type differences.

It would make boom guns even more terrifying.

I had always wanted different kinds of RG ammo that would have different effects like more range and accuracy, more damage to armor, etc. increase the versatility even more. But again how does the game mechanic work? Is it just more damage to certain materials or is there something else it could do?

[Mack]

Personally, I like to apply the AP rule to railguns as well. It gives a good reason to lug around a 100+ pound weapon instead of 7 pound laser.

Agreed.
I'm not sure if I've used that house rule, but I've definitely seen it before, and I like it. Palladium should have always done a lot more with damage type differences.

It would make boom guns even more terrifying.

Especially since double damage happens on a modified roll of 18+, and GB pilots have plenty of bonuses.

[Shark_Force]

The GMG isn't that great on this but the CB1 and the clarification on energy weapons in RUE make it clear that lasers especially have no impact while weapons like plasma have some but not as much as projectiles.

As for the use of rail guns I agree that as the current technology is listed in Rifts rail guns are much better used as weapons on large vehicles,, borgs, fixed fortification, and as a back up /replacement for the main weapon on power armors.

The thing is there are enough magical creatures, demons, and people to make the immunity to energy resistance more than enough reason to carry them. The other thing to consider is the versatility of ammo. By switching to wood or silver ammunition these weapons can be used to fight creatures that energy weapons will always be useless against.

I'm not saying I would ever have a tech character go without a good pulse laser or ion rifle but rail guns make great secondary or heavy weapons.

lasers in rifts are going to be vapourising large chunks of an object instantly. they are transferring enough energy to instantly cut through half a dozen cars lined up end to end and then blast a hole through a house behind that, in the case of more powerful lasers. there is going to be plenty of impact, it will come from the rapidly expanding cloud of gas that used to be where the laser hit.

and while there are *some* magical creatures and demons that are immune to energy... there really aren't a lot. and most of them are vulnerable to special materials. you mostly want a kinetic weapon for spellcasters, which are not that common, and there are plenty of good alternatives out there that don't require you to invent a small mobile turret that you're going to have to ride everywhere you go.

but speaking of those creatures with special weaknesses... I can just use a machine pistol or an SMG, which are again far lighter and bulkier, and in fact rail guns are so heavy and bulky that even if I am carrying both a triax pump rifle and a full-blown heavy machine gun, it would still be less of a burden. a railgun firing silver rounds does not do exceptional damage to vampires etc.

they just really aren't all that good, with the exception of a very few significant examples (boom guns, shemarrian rail guns, maybe one or two elsewhere).

[Warshield73]

The GMG isn't that great on this but the CB1 and the clarification on energy weapons in RUE make it clear that lasers especially have no impact while weapons like plasma have some but not as much as projectiles.

As for the use of rail guns I agree that as the current technology is listed in Rifts rail guns are much better used as weapons on large vehicles,, borgs, fixed fortification, and as a back up /replacement for the main weapon on power armors.

The thing is there are enough magical creatures, demons, and people to make the immunity to energy resistance more than enough reason to carry them. The other thing to consider is the versatility of ammo. By switching to wood or silver ammunition these weapons can be used to fight creatures that energy weapons will always be useless against.

I'm not saying I would ever have a tech character go without a good pulse laser or ion rifle but rail guns make great secondary or heavy weapons.

lasers in rifts are going to be vapourising large chunks of an object instantly. they are transferring enough energy to instantly cut through half a dozen cars lined up end to end and then blast a hole through a house behind that, in the case of more powerful lasers. there is going to be plenty of impact, it will come from the rapidly expanding cloud of gas that used to be where the laser hit.

Do you have any reference for this. I watch a lot of those physics of sci-fi videos and while some of what you are describing will occur it will mainly occur, from what I understand, when it hits SDC materials as they will be totally vaporized. The problem is that lasers have such a small focus that the effect isn't going to be nearly enough to do anything in terms of combat penalties. I mean yes if you hit a man in EBA with a tanks main laser cannon it will probably knock him down he should already be dead too.

and while there are *some* magical creatures and demons that are immune to energy... there really aren't a lot. and most of them are vulnerable to special materials. you mostly want a kinetic weapon for spellcasters, which are not that common, and there are plenty of good alternatives out there that don't require you to invent a small mobile turret that you're going to have to ride everywhere you go.

I do believe that these creatures, combined with just mages with energy resistance and aliens like the Arkohn with energy resistant armor means you want at least some in your arsenal. Mostly in the underlined areas

but speaking of those creatures with special weaknesses... I can just use a machine pistol or an SMG, which are again far lighter and bulkier, and in fact rail guns are so heavy and bulky that even if I am carrying both a triax pump rifle and a full-blown heavy machine gun, it would still be less of a burden. a railgun firing silver rounds does not do exceptional damage to vampires etc.

Again this is true for a single character but for the underlined circumstances they are better due to range advantage damage. For personal weapons I always use an SMG or a machine gun but again on vehicles and fixed bases.

they just really aren't all that good, with the exception of a very few significant examples (boom guns, shemarrian rail guns, maybe one or two elsewhere).

I can understand this but I just have to disagree with the above underlined ideas.

[Shark_Force]

they aren't really all that great as secondary weapons, or for use by borgs, vehicles, etc. I mean, they're better in that situation than as personal weapons, but even then, there are some really good heavier weapons (that are still lighter than railguns, mind you) which match them pretty well on range and outperform them in general.

mini-missile launchers, for example, can pack an excellent punch, and have superior range. short range missiles do even better on range, of course. heavy machineguns can be outfitted with heavy ramjet rounds and are typically a 5,000 foot range. wellington makes an excellent automatic grenade launcher that can dish out massive damage in an area at good range, and they even make a medium missile launcher that is technically man-portable, though I'd expect it to be far more frequently mounted on a vehicle.

and unlike railguns, several of these weapons are good enough that you'd actually want to use them outside of the unusual circumstance of your other weapons being unable to damage your target.

[Orin J.]

they aren't really all that great as secondary weapons, or for use by borgs, vehicles, etc. I mean, they're better in that situation than as personal weapons, but even then, there are some really good heavier weapons (that are still lighter than railguns, mind you) which match them pretty well on range and outperform them in general.

mini-missile launchers, for example, can pack an excellent punch, and have superior range. short range missiles do even better on range, of course. heavy machineguns can be outfitted with heavy ramjet rounds and are typically a 5,000 foot range. wellington makes an excellent automatic grenade launcher that can dish out massive damage in an area at good range, and they even make a medium missile launcher that is technically man-portable, though I'd expect it to be far more frequently mounted on a vehicle.

and unlike railguns, several of these weapons are good enough that you'd actually want to use them outside of the unusual circumstance of your other weapons being unable to damage your target.

railguns are hilariously more cost-effective to use though. it's actually more expensive to put the 200-round belt of SDC machinegun ammo in your owner armor than the same for a railgun, to say nothing of the fact that same price is buying you Maybe three mini-missiles.

railguns are honestly great weapons for the cost and much more reliable to handle for most situations/ especially if the GM decides not to let you jury-rig an e-clip charger out of whatever powerplant you might have.

[Shark_Force]

railguns are hilariously more cost-effective to use though. it's actually more expensive to put the 200-round belt of SDC machinegun ammo in your owner armor than the same for a railgun, to say nothing of the fact that same price is buying you Maybe three mini-missiles.

railguns are honestly great weapons for the cost and much more reliable to handle for most situations/ especially if the GM decides not to let you jury-rig an e-clip charger out of whatever powerplant you might have.

not sure where your price is coming from. GMG has the price of heavy ramjet rounds at 10-15 credits each. at 3,000 credits for 200 rounds (the high end of that range), I have a hard time believing you're going to get your hands on a railgun that is going to come anywhere close to matching either the destructive power or range of the HMG.

figuring, say, 5,000 credits for the machinegun, and comparing to the NG railguns, you're looking at anywhere from ~3,333-5,000 rounds of ammunition before you even reach the price of an empty railgun. that isn't a lifetime supply or anything, but it really isn't that bad.

[Orin J.]

railguns are hilariously more cost-effective to use though. it's actually more expensive to put the 200-round belt of SDC machinegun ammo in your owner armor than the same for a railgun, to say nothing of the fact that same price is buying you Maybe three mini-missiles.

railguns are honestly great weapons for the cost and much more reliable to handle for most situations/ especially if the GM decides not to let you jury-rig an e-clip charger out of whatever powerplant you might have.

not sure where your price is coming from. GMG has the price of heavy ramjet rounds at 10-15 credits each. at 3,000 credits for 200 rounds (the high end of that range), I have a hard time believing you're going to get your hands on a railgun that is going to come anywhere close to matching either the destructive power or range of the HMG.

figuring, say, 5,000 credits for the machinegun, and comparing to the NG railguns, you're looking at anywhere from ~3,333-5,000 rounds of ammunition before you even reach the price of an empty railgun. that isn't a lifetime supply or anything, but it really isn't that bad.

per RUE (Pg.259, just after e-clip costs) railgun rounds are two rounds a credit, which means every ramjet is twenty railgun slugs. you will save a small fortune in ammo switching over to railguns.

[Shark_Force]

not sure where your price is coming from. GMG has the price of heavy ramjet rounds at 10-15 credits each. at 3,000 credits for 200 rounds (the high end of that range), I have a hard time believing you're going to get your hands on a railgun that is going to come anywhere close to matching either the destructive power or range of the HMG.

figuring, say, 5,000 credits for the machinegun, and comparing to the NG railguns, you're looking at anywhere from ~3,333-5,000 rounds of ammunition before you even reach the price of an empty railgun. that isn't a lifetime supply or anything, but it really isn't that bad.

per RUE (Pg.259, just after e-clip costs) railgun rounds are two rounds a credit, which means every ramjet is twenty railgun slugs. you will save a small fortune in ammo switching over to railguns.

no. *first* you will spend a small fortune *extra*.

then, eventually, if you use the gun a whole awful lot, you *might* save a small fortune. or, the power plant could sit there doing absolutely nothing for a couple years and then need replacing because most people are not under constant unending siege by creatures which are immune to energy, and the people who are probably tend to get overrun well before questions of how much their ammunition costs becomes relevant.

[pad300]

railguns are hilariously more cost-effective to use though. it's actually more expensive to put the 200-round belt of SDC machinegun ammo in your owner armor than the same for a railgun, to say nothing of the fact that same price is buying you Maybe three mini-missiles.

railguns are honestly great weapons for the cost and much more reliable to handle for most situations/ especially if the GM decides not to let you jury-rig an e-clip charger out of whatever powerplant you might have.

not sure where your price is coming from. GMG has the price of heavy ramjet rounds at 10-15 credits each. at 3,000 credits for 200 rounds (the high end of that range), I have a hard time believing you're going to get your hands on a railgun that is going to come anywhere close to matching either the destructive power or range of the HMG.

figuring, say, 5,000 credits for the machinegun, and comparing to the NG railguns, you're looking at anywhere from ~3,333-5,000 rounds of ammunition before you even reach the price of an empty railgun. that isn't a lifetime supply or anything, but it really isn't that bad.

per RUE (Pg.259, just after e-clip costs) railgun rounds are two rounds a credit, which means every ramjet is twenty railgun slugs. you will save a small fortune in ammo switching over to railguns.

Orin, it's closer than you think. Do the math per point of damage...
A Samas railgun fires a 40 round burst. At 2 credits a round, that's 80 credits for 1d4X10 MDC
A Viper HMG (Merc Ops, pg 100) fires a 10 round burst to do 1d4X10 MDC. Heavy ramjets cost between 10 and 15 credits per round. That's 100 to 150 credits for 1d4X10 MDC

Ramjets are more expensive. But the ability to fire 20 round bursts for 2d4X10 MDC, means you can put twice as much damage downrange in a given amount of time; this will save you on armor repairs... and possibly your life.

[Blackwater Sniper]

The one thing Rifts has never been good at is parity between weapons across books (aka power-creep). It's one of the Cons of having too many writers on separate books and no Editor to set a single standard for what each weapon type should fall into regardless who designs the weapon.

A LASER should have certain damage effects, defeat some kinds of armor, and penetrate near invisible forcefields (it is light after all).
A plasma (super heated energy) may not affect a monster invulnerable to heat or may cause fires within a short radius of target.
Rail gun rounds should have the ability to knock back the target depending on the ration of damage dealt and size of the target and penetrate forcefields on Critical Hits.

[Orin J.]

railguns are hilariously more cost-effective to use though. it's actually more expensive to put the 200-round belt of SDC machinegun ammo in your owner armor than the same for a railgun, to say nothing of the fact that same price is buying you Maybe three mini-missiles.

railguns are honestly great weapons for the cost and much more reliable to handle for most situations/ especially if the GM decides not to let you jury-rig an e-clip charger out of whatever powerplant you might have.

not sure where your price is coming from. GMG has the price of heavy ramjet rounds at 10-15 credits each. at 3,000 credits for 200 rounds (the high end of that range), I have a hard time believing you're going to get your hands on a railgun that is going to come anywhere close to matching either the destructive power or range of the HMG.

figuring, say, 5,000 credits for the machinegun, and comparing to the NG railguns, you're looking at anywhere from ~3,333-5,000 rounds of ammunition before you even reach the price of an empty railgun. that isn't a lifetime supply or anything, but it really isn't that bad.

per RUE (Pg.259, just after e-clip costs) railgun rounds are two rounds a credit, which means every ramjet is twenty railgun slugs. you will save a small fortune in ammo switching over to railguns.

Orin, it's closer than you think. Do the math per point of damage...
A Samas railgun fires a 40 round burst. At 2 credits a round, that's 80 credits for 1d4X10 MDC
A Viper HMG (Merc Ops, pg 100) fires a 10 round burst to do 1d4X10 MDC. Heavy ramjets cost between 10 and 15 credits per round. That's 100 to 150 credits for 1d4X10 MDC

Ramjets are more expensive. But the ability to fire 20 round bursts for 2d4X10 MDC, means you can put twice as much damage downrange in a given amount of time; this will save you on armor repairs... and possibly your life.

yeah, but merc ops is confusing*. where the exact same cartridges in mercs is dealing only 5D6 MDC on a 40-round burst and doesn't seem to have figured it out it's either using a massively larger round and failing to change the price or it's just that book's tendency to not really look closely at the stats. given the SDC damage for the round is listed higher than .50cal rounds and while i found an WWII tank gun matching their "15mm rounds" designation those are.....not a weapon you could pretend even a cyborg could carry around.
*okay, nothing new for Merc Ops, but still...

[pad300]

yeah, but merc ops is confusing*. where the exact same cartridges in mercs is dealing only 5D6 MDC on a 40-round burst and doesn't seem to have figured it out it's either using a massively larger round and failing to change the price or it's just that book's tendency to not really look closely at the stats. given the SDC damage for the round is listed higher than .50cal rounds and while i found an WWII tank gun matching their "15mm rounds" designation those are.....not a weapon you could pretend even a cyborg could carry around.
*okay, nothing new for Merc Ops, but still...

Your dealing with Palladium : They just pull whatever number they want out of thin air.

But if you want to justify it technically, you could argue they aren't actually the same cartridge. The 5d6 MDC burst was from a .50 cal, which is to say 12.7mm x 99 mm NATO. But you didn't search into enough crazy stuff to find a 15 mm machine gun. May I present, the FN BRG-15, which was intended to fire 15.5 mm X 106 mm.

As to what can be realistically carried around, well, I'm afraid we're back to this is Palladium... Note that railguns wouldn't be practical for a realistic cyborg to carry around either.

[Orin J.]

yeah, but merc ops is confusing*. where the exact same cartridges in mercs is dealing only 5D6 MDC on a 40-round burst and doesn't seem to have figured it out it's either using a massively larger round and failing to change the price or it's just that book's tendency to not really look closely at the stats. given the SDC damage for the round is listed higher than .50cal rounds and while i found an WWII tank gun matching their "15mm rounds" designation those are.....not a weapon you could pretend even a cyborg could carry around.
*okay, nothing new for Merc Ops, but still...

Your dealing with Palladium : They just pull whatever number they want out of thin air.

But if you want to justify it technically, you could argue they aren't actually the same cartridge. The 5d6 MDC burst was from a .50 cal, which is to say 12.7mm x 99 mm NATO. But you didn't search into enough crazy stuff to find a 15 mm machine gun. May I present, the FN BRG-15, which was intended to fire 15.5 mm X 106 mm.

As to what can be realistically carried around, well, I'm afraid we're back to this is Palladium... Note that railguns wouldn't be practical for a realistic cyborg to carry around either.

That is, in fact, the exact gun i was looking at.* man it would be nice to have a QC pass over the books before printing any new stuff....

*i meant to say cartridge. i did NOT say cartridge. man it would be nice to remember doing a QC pass over my own posts...

[pad300]

That is, in fact, the exact gun i was looking at. man it would be nice to have a QC pass over the books before printing any new stuff....

That's not a WWII design, that's 1980's.