Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

Going to finally have a cyber knight in my campaign, I've never had one and if one of the players ever plays a Glitterboy, I'll finally have had the PR faces of Rifts in my games.

Anyways, did not know if to post here or the Psionics sub-forum for such a small question:

Does WP quick draw synergize with the psi-sword or because the sword is psionic, drawn instantly in the hands it does not add any bonuses? I'm not one for knocking bonuses away from players but it seems like the WP needs a physical weapon in holster or something to work with - at least that's my interpretation of it.

Thoughts?

[ShadowLogan]

The Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword can be energized as a Free action, which is a big step up from the 15sec "activation time" regular Psi-Sword users (including the Mind Melter) have to deal with. If that is worth an Initiative Bonus, that would be a GM call for the "free action", but that would have to be on top of the other initiative bonuses the CK already receives (OCC Bonus, HTH: Martial Arts at Level 3/11, Zen Combat if used when applicable).

As to WP Quick Draw, no it does not synergizes with Psi-Sword (or other instant Spell/Psionic/Power activations). Quick Draw's bonus to initiative determined strictly by PP attribute, which has nothing to do with the process of "drawing" a Psi-Sword (or activating a Spell/Psionic/Power). The wording in the description in RUE also doesn't seem to be geared toward drawing a melee weapon (which a Psi-Sword is) given it is stated "A practiced move in which the character gets an initiative bonus to draw and fire or throw his weapon much faster as the first sign of danger." That text makes me think it is intended to be used to draw a weapon with the intent of ranged combat (fire or throw being the key factors here).

Now one could house rule it to apply to Psi-Sword or a skill specifically geared toward this (ie make WP: Quick Draw if selected apply to only one weapon type much like how Sharpshooting works), but if you do that I would not have the PP attribute driving the bonus (I'd use the same formula as PP, just a different attribute like ME since that is a driving attribute toward Psi powers in general).

[narcissus]

WP Quick Draw adds an initiative bonus, period. Don't overcomplicate it.

[Warshield73]

WP Quick Draw adds an initiative bonus, period. Don't overcomplicate it.

This is my approach but I only apply it to weapons that could be realistically quick drawn

[Mack]

I'd allow WP Quick Draw to work with a CK's Psi-Sword. If the player really wants to waste a skill slot on a minor bonus, let them.

(If the player is new, I would walk them through why it's not a great investment but otherwise it's their choice.)

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

Not trying to overcomplicate things, only working out some clarifications for this.

I'm leaning towards it only works with physical weapons that can be actually quick drawn versus the psi-sword which is willed into existence. I might try talking him out of it if he's trying to boost his initiative. The player is not new at all with several years of playing under his belt. We're just getting around to a new campaign with new characters. Not having WP quick draw should not hamper the character too much considering the bonuses they get against tech armed opponents.

[Hotrod]

Considering the horror show of trying to implement Zen Combat as written, the Psi-sword activation/initiative issue is the least of your concerns.

[Luvia]

If the bonus being pp dosent feel right maybe change it to me as the attribute or something. Honestly though I just let a cyber knight have it though the bonus isn't that much.

[Axelmania]

Does "quick draw" shorten "1 action to draw" weapons into "free action to draw" weapons or something?

If not then is the bonus to initiative basically a contest to see whoever gets to spend that 1st action drawing their weapon?

Will also note the 'free action' psisword is only if you use the classic sword shape and classic blueish color, making one that's non-blue or non-sword (both variations introduced in SOT4 and retained in RUE) takes a melee action.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

Considering the horror show of trying to implement Zen Combat as written, the Psi-sword activation/initiative issue is the least of your concerns.

Does seem like a lot of paperwork to keep track of. I'm almost considering a spreadsheet to use with the baddies against a CK.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

It's not that it's a huge bonus to initiative, it's just the mechanic behind it. I'm somewhat of a stickler with how some skills/WPs are explained and just want to be consistent with what works and what shouldn't. I've homeruled somethings here and there to combat somethings I thought needed it.

The WP's description gives a bonus to initiative that varies with the character's physical prowess and increases in each bracket they fit into. It also describes as a practiced move to draw and fire/throw at the first sign of danger. I'd allow a sword to be included as a homerule addition. However since a psi-sword is willed into existence it goes against the description as it is not drawn. It does not shorten the action of drawing to a free action, which I am not sure if that exists in Palladium.

[Hotrod]

Considering the horror show of trying to implement Zen Combat as written, the Psi-sword activation/initiative issue is the least of your concerns.

Does seem like a lot of paperwork to keep track of. I'm almost considering a spreadsheet to use with the baddies against a CK.

I salute your determination, but you should know that there are certain circumstances in which Zen Combat breaks down and requires house rules, and those circumstances center around initiative.

The fundamental problem is that Zen Combat affects combat between the CK and tech adversaries, but initiative is determined between all combatants, which sometimes includes a mix of tech adversaries and non-tech adversaries and allies. Bumping the CK up ahead of a tech foe might also bump that CK ahead of a non-tech foe or ally who otherwise would go ahead of the CK.

This is setting aside the minefield that is the "what is considered tech?" question and the royal pain of keeping track of every source of bonuses for all combatants in combat and adjusting them on the fly depending on who they're fighting in that instant. Is A strike bonus from a cybernetic PP an affected bonus? There are a lot of judgment calls to be made here.

[Axelmania]

The fundamental problem is that Zen Combat affects combat between the CK and tech adversaries,
but initiative is determined between all combatants,
which sometimes includes a mix of tech adversaries and non-tech adversaries and allies.
Bumping the CK up ahead of a tech foe might also bump that CK ahead of a non-tech foe or ally who otherwise would go ahead of the CK.

I wonder if it'd just be easier to treat this like some kind of "if tech is present in the environment their senses are enhanced" type of thing, rather than worry about which foe is carrying tech.

Kinda like how RUE 101 there's a perception bonus or penalty for elemental fusionists.

It'd be fun to allow someone to multi-class as both kinds of elemental fusionist but they need to stack EVERYTHING : being -12 to perception rolls in cities seems like a strong enough deterrant for abuse

[Hotrod]

The fundamental problem is that Zen Combat affects combat between the CK and tech adversaries,
but initiative is determined between all combatants,
which sometimes includes a mix of tech adversaries and non-tech adversaries and allies.
Bumping the CK up ahead of a tech foe might also bump that CK ahead of a non-tech foe or ally who otherwise would go ahead of the CK.

I wonder if it'd just be easier to treat this like some kind of "if tech is present in the environment their senses are enhanced" type of thing, rather than worry about which foe is carrying tech.

Kinda like how RUE 101 there's a perception bonus or penalty for elemental fusionists.

It'd be fun to allow someone to multi-class as both kinds of elemental fusionist but they need to stack EVERYTHING : being -12 to perception rolls in cities seems like a strong enough deterrant for abuse

I shy away from situational bonuses; it's way too easy to get bogged down in book-keeping when there are more than two or three, and I'd rather have those two or three factors be deliberately-engaged factors (cover, visibility, and activated effects) than effects that are supposed to kick in automatically under a set of given circumstances.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Follow up question.

The CK can instantly create their Psi Sword. That's a given.

Other psychics have the psi-sword ability, but it takes a full melee to conjure?

How many of you enforce that full melee 'creation' time, or do you just let the psychic spend the ISP and have the sword?

Second Follow up question. Do you enforce that the CK's Psi Sword which is their 'Signature' thing, and what a huuuuge amount of training revolves around, and they use a badge of office, is astonishingly weak, when compared to the other psychics Psi-sword?

CK Damage per level
1: 1D6
3: 2D6
6: 3D6
9: 4D6
12: 5D6
15: 6D6

compared to the Psi sword of other psychics
Lvl
3: 4D6 (Already as strong as a NINTH level CK
4: 6D6 ( as strong as a FIFTEENTH Level CK)
7: 8D6
9: 10D6
12: 12D6 (Twice as much as max level CK)
15: 14D6.

Now... the CK can be made 'instantly' and the other takes a full melee, but... at 3rd level their blade -starts- as strong as a 9th lvl CK who has trained and squired for years before even getting their level 1, and it's supposed to be an intrinsic part of the CK. For other psychics, it's just another psionic power they pick off the list. And if you read through the books, 9th level NPCs are like, experienced generals in charge of entire armies and are heroes with legends springing up around them. If you go by the books the first time a non CK Whips out their Psi-sword, it's as powerful as a CK that's not only spent years/decades as a squire, but hit lvl 1... then progressed from 1, all the way to lvl 9. By the time that psychic gains one more level, his blade is as strong as a 15th level CK!!

If anything, shouldn't the damages be reversed? With the CK's having the stronger swords and growth? As the Psi sword is the 'badge' and 'symbol' of the Cyber knights and they've spent so many years mastering it, and it's by the creation of said sword that they 'get their spurs' and are considered full fledged knights.

[ShadowLogan]

Things to keep in mind:
-CK-Psi-Sword is NOT a Super Psionic Power. In order to select the regular Psi-Sword one must be a Master psychic (@3rd level), of which few Cyber-Knights are (and those that are do get a boost to CK-Sword damage, this though is a RUE/SoT retcon not present in RMB version). This power is available to "minor" and Major Psychics (I put minor in quotes due to non-psychic CKs being considered minor psychics), which could explain the weaker damage. Off hand I can't think of any class/race that has Psi-Sword and is not a Master Psychic (aside from the CK).
-In some ways this is not dissimilar to the Bio-Regen (Healing v Super) powers being different in performance/cost or Telekinesis (Physcial vs Super). The Psi-Slayer (WB12 pg72-3) has the Psi-Dagger, which could be another variant of the Psi-Sword that has reduced cost/duration/damage as compared to a regular Psi-Sword but has the same zero activation time. The Amaki Duelist (WB9pg156) has another Psi-Sword variant with its own damage/cost/duration that differs from either the CK or MM versions. This provides some support for weakening the CK-Psi-Sword version as well when compared to the Mind Melter from a game perspective (though the CK came before the other two variants, which IMHO means the CK sets precedent that is followed in some respect later).
-as noted previously the CK-Psi-Sword has zero activation cost AND zero "casting" time. Not noted is that the duration is indefinite, even a 15th level Mind Melter with psi-sword will run into the duration limit (granted we are taking 75minutes at that point) and potential ISP availability.
-as noted the CK takes years of study/training, but the text description of the power (RUE pg180-1 or RMB pg126) indicates something similar is required "The creation of the Psi-Sword is a very personal thing and requires years of mastery and great psionic power." This could be reflected in the 3rd level requirement, but it shows that even a MM requires some number of years to achieve a similar end.
-the CK-Psi-Sword power offers the ability to (@3rd Level) create a SECOND weapon for free (a Mind Melter can not) which can make it a much closer race in terms of damage (MM version still out damage them in the long run (assuming a non-Master-CK). This is a RUE/SoT recton not found in the RMB version.
-the power is not strictly an ISP power source, but some mix of PPE and ISP, it is that mix of power sources that might explain the lower damage IF the CS's Psionic Weapon Gauntlet's Psi-Sword is anything to go by (WB12 pg154) as it does a FIXED damage (regardless of level) and it uses ISP and a nuclear power cell. (now PPE is not nuclear energy obviously, but it shows that if you mix ISP with another energy source the outcome is not as powerful as a pure ISP source).

This leads me to think the CK Psi-Sword is not in need of fixing. While the CK could benefit from a bump in damage output for the Psi-Sword there are already ways to do this via Skills/Abilities (ex. Fencing) or items (ex TW Psi-Blade in WB9).

[Hotrod]

A master psionic Cyber-Knight gets a bonus to psi-sword damage. A native of Psyscape can double the effectiveness of one power. Make Psi-Sword that power. By level 10, you'll be doing 14D6 per hit. By level 15, you'll do 20D6 per hit. Plus you can make two of them and dual-strike. If you prefer to simplify your damage rolls, a paired weapon strike from a level 15 master psionic cyber knight from Psyscape (specializing in the psi-sword ability) would do 4D6x10. Ouch.

Getting the master psionic status either requires a 10% roll or selecting a race that automatically comes with master psionics, such as Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker.

Having a cyber-knight from Psyscape is unlikely, but not impossible. Cyber-knights first showed up right around the time that Psyscape disappered, and it's possible that a knight living or visiting the city disappeared with it and carried on his order's traditions, opening up his own offshoot of the Cyber-Knight tradition.

I explored such a possibility in another thread not too long ago. I also explored a possible Psyscape-Cyber-Knight alternative to Cyber-Armor and Zen Combat in that thread. You might find some of the ideas useful.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Things to keep in mind:
-CK-Psi-Sword is NOT a Super Psionic Power. In order to select the regular Psi-Sword one must be a Master psychic (@3rd level), of which few Cyber-Knights are (and those that are do get a boost to CK-Sword damage, this though is a RUE/SoT retcon not present in RMB version). This power is available to "minor" and Major Psychics (I put minor in quotes due to non-psychic CKs being considered minor psychics), which could explain the weaker damage. Off hand I can't think of any class/race that has Psi-Sword and is not a Master Psychic (aside from the CK).
-In some ways this is not dissimilar to the Bio-Regen (Healing v Super) powers being different in performance/cost or Telekinesis (Physcial vs Super). The Psi-Slayer (WB12 pg72-3) has the Psi-Dagger, which could be another variant of the Psi-Sword that has reduced cost/duration/damage as compared to a regular Psi-Sword but has the same zero activation time. The Amaki Duelist (WB9pg156) has another Psi-Sword variant with its own damage/cost/duration that differs from either the CK or MM versions. This provides some support for weakening the CK-Psi-Sword version as well when compared to the Mind Melter from a game perspective (though the CK came before the other two variants, which IMHO means the CK sets precedent that is followed in some respect later).
-as noted previously the CK-Psi-Sword has zero activation cost AND zero "casting" time. Not noted is that the duration is indefinite, even a 15th level Mind Melter with psi-sword will run into the duration limit (granted we are taking 75minutes at that point) and potential ISP availability.
-as noted the CK takes years of study/training, but the text description of the power (RUE pg180-1 or RMB pg126) indicates something similar is required "The creation of the Psi-Sword is a very personal thing and requires years of mastery and great psionic power." This could be reflected in the 3rd level requirement, but it shows that even a MM requires some number of years to achieve a similar end.
-the CK-Psi-Sword power offers the ability to (@3rd Level) create a SECOND weapon for free (a Mind Melter can not) which can make it a much closer race in terms of damage (MM version still out damage them in the long run (assuming a non-Master-CK). This is a RUE/SoT recton not found in the RMB version.
-the power is not strictly an ISP power source, but some mix of PPE and ISP, it is that mix of power sources that might explain the lower damage IF the CS's Psionic Weapon Gauntlet's Psi-Sword is anything to go by (WB12 pg154) as it does a FIXED damage (regardless of level) and it uses ISP and a nuclear power cell. (now PPE is not nuclear energy obviously, but it shows that if you mix ISP with another energy source the outcome is not as powerful as a pure ISP source).

This leads me to think the CK Psi-Sword is not in need of fixing. While the CK could benefit from a bump in damage output for the Psi-Sword there are already ways to do this via Skills/Abilities (ex. Fencing) or items (ex TW Psi-Blade in WB9).

I know all this.
Not trying to be snarky but is 'instant activation' worth THAT level of damage reduction for a class who's Signature ability.... -is- the Psi-Sword? It seems backwards to me. That if a class, has a signature ability that it should be... good at what that ability is. Not a much inferior version.

"Instant activation" is nice. Don't get me wrong. Most especially if the 'Full melee activation' of the other one is enforced (*I doubt it often is). But the damage differences above are significant. I do know of the 1D6 boost if the CK is a master level psychic, but even then it lags behind. Far far behind.

Maybe I'm weird but if a Class literally devotes more page count to an ability (the CK's Psisword) Than most other entire OOC's get from start to finish. I figure they should be really good at it. The CK's lag far far behind.

[Pepsi Jedi]

A master psionic Cyber-Knight gets a bonus to psi-sword damage. A native of Psyscape can double the effectiveness of one power. Make Psi-Sword that power. By level 10, you'll be doing 14D6 per hit. By level 15, you'll do 20D6 per hit. Plus you can make two of them and dual-strike. If you prefer to simplify your damage rolls, a paired weapon strike from a level 15 master psionic cyber knight from Psyscape (specializing in the psi-sword ability) would do 4D6x10. Ouch.

Getting the master psionic status either requires a 10% roll or selecting a race that automatically comes with master psionics, such as Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker.

Having a cyber-knight from Psyscape is unlikely, but not impossible. Cyber-knights first showed up right around the time that Psyscape disappered, and it's possible that a knight living or visiting the city disappeared with it and carried on his order's traditions, opening up his own offshoot of the Cyber-Knight tradition.

I explored such a possibility in another thread not too long ago. I also explored a possible Psyscape-Cyber-Knight alternative to Cyber-Armor and Zen Combat in that thread. You might find some of the ideas useful.

Again, not trying to be snarky, but I know the tricks.
I know if you are a master level psychic you get a +1D6. This still doesn't get you close to the other ability.
And yes I'm aware of the "Native of psyscape" Ability to double one power. (Was literally looking at it last night in conjunction with a Psi-Warrior)

But those are contrivances. Master level psychic requires a 1 in 10 roll, (Or a GM that just stamps it) and that's only the +1D6.
The "Native of Psyscape" Is even longer a stretch, as the CK's are trained out West and Psyscape is a ultra hidden city on the astral plane out in Ohio. Now, I write long detailed histories. I could have my CK get their spurs as a CK and be traveling, find their way into Psyscape and spend the 10 years or so to 'Open their third eye. I could even make it look good and plausable. But Out of character it's a Mini-maxing sort of contrivance to purposefully get the damage boost. And even -then- it will only catch up, with the damage literally doubled by the contrivance, to the other psi-sword with zero contrivance. I.E. you have to mini-max not once but twice, and have a pretty...... uncommon/rare history just to justify, doubling your damage to -equal- the damage of the other guy.

Using the same thing, a mind melter from Psiscape will have a sword at 15th lvl that does 28D6.

But yes, you're right about the tricks. And I was aware of them. I was talking about more an "Off the shelf" stereotypical CK, not the 1%ers.

Though your math is a bit wrong. You say that they'll be doing 20D6 at lvl 15. Being a master psychic only gives you a +1D6, so at 15th level, even doubling the damage from being from Psyscape, you're only hitting 14D6

[Curbludgeon]

I don't see a reason to assume that Hotrod was addressing anyone specific.

Master Psychic Cyber-Knights, per RUE pg 64, receive +1d6 to Psi-Sword damage at levels 2, 5, 9, and 13 in additon to the progression followed by all C-Ks.

Edit: To answer the original question, I think Quick Draw with a C-K's Psi-Sword is fine.

Perhaps the easiest substitution for Zen Combat is to just up the Psi-Sword damage to that of the Super Psionic power, possibly using the normal C-K damage until a round is spent focusing. I wouldn't combine that with the damage bonus Master Psychic C-Ks receive, but would say such characters might combine it with another possible substitution, which is psionic powers usable without I.S.P. cost. A tentative progression might be 2 from basic categories at 1st level, with 1 additional every odd level and 1 Master gained at 4th and 9th level. If leaning into the whole Jedi thing one could limit selections to Telekinetic abilities/Levitation, Intuitive Combat (ignoring penalties outside the 1 round of concentration, which can be concurrent with getting a Psi-Sword to Master-level damage), and about half the Sensitive category, with Super Psionics limited to Hypnotic Suggestion and Telekinesis (Super). YMMV

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't see a reason to assume that Hotrod was addressing anyone specific.

Master Psychic Cyber-Knights, per RUE pg 64, receive +1d6 to Psi-Sword damage at levels 2, 5, 9, and 13 in additon to the progression followed by all C-Ks.

Ahhh they've changed that.

I was looking at the Cyber Knight OCC in the Cyber Knights book. Page 24

"Additional Psionic Abilities for Natural Psychic: Minor Psychic: Two from Sensitive or Physical only. Major Psychic: Same as on page 12 of the Rifts® RPG. Master Psychic: Select a total often abilities from any of the three Categories (Healing, Sensitive, and/or Physical) at level one, one Super-Psionic power, and does an additional +1D6 M.D. with Psi-Sword at 2nd level. Nothing else."

It literally reads "Nothing else" after the 1D6, in the book. lol

Didn't think I was crazy with the +1D6, being 'all' they got. As per the book I had open that's what it reads, but it looks like that's been changed. Thanks for the heads up.

So that would change the progression, for 10% of them.

[ShadowLogan]

I know all this.
Not trying to be snarky but is 'instant activation' worth THAT level of damage reduction for a class who's Signature ability.... -is- the Psi-Sword? It seems backwards to me. That if a class, has a signature ability that it should be... good at what that ability is. Not a much inferior version.

"Instant activation" is nice. Don't get me wrong. Most especially if the 'Full melee activation' of the other one is enforced (*I doubt it often is). But the damage differences above are significant. I do know of the 1D6 boost if the CK is a master level psychic, but even then it lags behind. Far far behind.

Maybe I'm weird but if a Class literally devotes more page count to an ability (the CK's Psisword) Than most other entire OOC's get from start to finish. I figure they should be really good at it. The CK's lag far far behind.

I agree that the Psi-Sword is a signature feature of the CK OCC, but IS IT REALLY a signature weapon of the class. If you look at the OCC Skills they do not get any sword skills (WP: Sword, Fencing) that one would expect them to have it if it was a signature weapon of the class (unlike an Amaki Duelist or Japan's Samurai classes which both give WP: Sword). While the CK can select them, they do not appear to have signature weapon of the class given all WPs are chosen, none are fixed. I know how the CKs are depicted which runs counter to this, but from a class perspective it does not appear that Psi-Sword is a signature weapon of the class, feature/ability yes weapon no.

It might also be worth asking if the CK Psi-Sword is a true psychic power, or something else that is just called a "psi-sword" for convivence by the writer(s). RUE (pg83, and SoT4 and RMB IIRC) hints that it might be a Chi power given "The Cyber-Knight's training is such that ALL Knights can call upon their Inner Strength and Spirit (ancient, pre-Rifts Oriental masters might have called this 'chi') to perform superhuman feats as follows" it then goes on to list ISP value, and starting psionic powers even a NON-PSIONIC CK can use. Now I am not familiar at all with Chi setting (N&SS/MC) powers so I can not say if this works or not I just know the statement exists which might make this a case of comparing apples to oranges in reality instead of the apparent apples to apples comparison.

[Axelmania]

I shy away from situational bonuses; it's way too easy to get bogged down in book-keeping when there are more than two or three, and I'd rather have those two or three factors be deliberately-engaged factors (cover, visibility, and activated effects) than effects that are supposed to kick in automatically under a set of given circumstances.

The CK initiative bonus is already situational, I just figure it's less complex book-keeping if we considered it in respect to everything (ie "that laser gun my friend is carrying is like coffee to me, so I can punch this Xiticix faster even though the Xiticix has no tech on him) rather than doing "initiative in respect to" which sounds like more difficulty calculating.

The problem is basically:

1) Knight char A moves faster in respect to tech char B
2) Knight char A does NOT move faster in respect to non-tech char C
3) non-tech char C does NOT move faster in respect to tech char B

Giving the bonus to knight A but not non-tech C ends up violating (2)
Giving a bonus to BOTH of them ends up violating (3)
Giving a penalty to tech char B also ends up violating (3)

So I can't really see any kind of solution in dealing with mixed populations...

This is just going with the spirit of the perceived intent, of course. If we go with the LETTER it could be simpler...

RUE65 "knows what his opponent is doing the same instant his opponent does it, enabling the Knight to react a split second faster: +3 on initiative against attacks from modern guns"

This seems to me that rather than being "initiative for the entire round" it's "initiative in respect to a single attack".

IE it would apply in these two situations:

1) quick-drawing a weapon
2) simultaneous attacks

I believe what you would do is calculate initiative normally (this is your "base initiative", sorta) and then you could have temporary (on a per-action bases) shifts in initiative which only apply in respect to interacting with a single attack, where you can choose to alternate the order.

In cases where the CK normally loses initiative by 1 or 2 points, the +3 means that instead of them firing 2nd, they fire 1st.

I don't know how often that's necessarily going to matter because AFAIK regardless of initiative order and consequences of attacks, both simultaneous attacks get carried out.
IE if you simultaneous-attacked in response to someone shooting your gun (and you targeted THEIR gun) you'd both get to shoot each other's guns regardless
the first roll doing enough damage to destroy the other gun doesn't negate that other gun's shot which targets your gun

I could be wrong about that of course, and if I am, then this initiative bonus would make a lot more sense because then whoever gets to roll damage first could in theory negate a simultaneous attack, in effect wasting the target's action (they would've been better off trying to dodge)

The "against attacks" is key.

I'm assuming "+4 against artificial intelligences" is shorthand for "against attacks from artificial intelligences", otherwise the +3/+6 solo or +2/+4 group initiative bonuses would function very differently, the base amounts against humans wielding tech being per-action and the doubled amounts against AI possibly being per-round.

I don't know if that necessarily matters though: I could see omitting "action" as acknowledgement that non-AI can make attacks CK can't sense (ie instead of firing your laser you throw a rock) whereas anything whatsoever an AI does (including throw rocks) a CK can sense, so "action" isn't a necessary distinction: they always get the (relative?) init bonus against those foes, instead of the bonus being conditional and ephemeral against non-AIs.

Note: for simplicity I cropped the above quotes to omit other examples ("and machines" .. "and computers") just using the first example for brevity of comparison.

[Axelmania]

Other psychics have the psi-sword ability, but it takes a full melee to conjure?

With a couple (or maybe 3) exceptions I can think of:

1) there's a version of Psi-Sword in Nightbane NB1 Between the Shadows (pg 114) which doesn't mention needing a melee round to create, so I figure it would also be one action.
2) the Amaki Duelist has a lower-damage-than-super version which I think only costs 1 action (SA2p155)
3) the TW Psi-Blade can be used by Cyber-Knights (SA2p165-6) and while there's no mention of needing extra time (or actions) to use this to boost your damage, it's possible GMs might have some kind of standard rule that it takes 1 melee action to activate a Techno-Wizard device if not otherwise specified, in which case I assume you'd add 1 to whatever the normal activation time is for your ability.

Maybe even charge 1 action per minute to maintain as that's how long 2 ISP lasts you. Only Amaki/CK pay the 2 extra ISP though, the standard super psi apparently does not, so maybe you could waive +1 action for them too since an entire melee is PLENTY, especially as Rifts seems to have bloated by +2 melee actions for living at some point during the 90s which makes entire-melee investments far more costly.

You might also view a couple things in Psyscape as pseudo-exceptions:
1) the "Psi-Knife" ability of the Psi-Slayer (there's also a Psi-Implant which gives access to it)
2) the lower-damage Psi-Sword made by another Psi-Implant

I think in either of those cases it would also take 1 action to make.

Perhaps as a house rule we could make a variant of the Psi-Slayer's psi-knife available to master-psi Cyber-Knights?

Same 1-action creation, ISP cost and duration, but to keep a slight advantage for Psi-Slayers: it has to appear as a big weapon as a sword, so only the Psi-Slayer gets to keep that damage while having a small easily concealed weapon.

I'd have to compare the stats of the Psi-Knife to the Amaki Sword or the BTS version of Psi-Sword but I think it's lower power than either of them so this wouldn't be unbalanced compared to giving access to either of those two versions IMO.

How many of you enforce that full melee 'creation' time, or do you just let the psychic spend the ISP and have the sword?

I think you should either choose a high-damage sword with a long creation time, or a moderate-damage sword with a brief creation time.

I believe PF/HU use the same long creation time as Rifts but with damage growing more steadily in +2D6 increments, whereas the NB:BTS version only grows in +1D6 increments.

If you wanted both options you could either force someone to buy both variants of Psi-Sword, or perhaps just say whoever has the power can use either variant based on what's convenient.

Do you enforce that the CK's Psi Sword which is their 'Signature' thing, and what a huuuuge amount of training revolves around, and they use a badge of office, is astonishingly weak, when compared to the other psychics Psi-sword?

CK Damage per level
1: 1D6
3: 2D6
6: 3D6
9: 4D6
12: 5D6
15: 6D6

compared to the Psi sword of other psychics
Lvl
3: 4D6 (Already as strong as a NINTH level CK
4: 6D6 ( as strong as a FIFTEENTH Level CK)
7: 8D6
9: 10D6
12: 12D6 (Twice as much as max level CK)
15: 14D6.

Sure, I think the signature might be more about how they can do it instantly and indefinitely.

You don't really see damage after all, and guys like Mind Melters and Mystics who need inconvenient prep (and costly ISP) to use it aren't going to be using it as often as a CK, so it won't be as big a sig for them.

Now... the CK can be made 'instantly' and the other takes a full melee, but... at 3rd level their blade -starts- as strong as a 9th lvl CK who has trained and squired for years before even getting their level 1, and it's supposed to be an intrinsic part of the CK.

Intrinsic doesn't necessarily mean better. If I have the minor super power of Energy Expulsion: Light and can fire a 1D6 laser indefinitely at level 1, it's definitely more instrinsic than a CS laser ridle doing 2D6, but the laser rifle still has better damage and range (at least for now: I might surpass it as I level up)

If anything, shouldn't the damages be reversed?
With the CK's having the stronger swords and growth?

Which cost nothing and last forever? Probably too powerful.

As the Psi sword is the 'badge' and 'symbol' of the Cyber knights and they've spent so many years mastering it

If we want to give them a little more oomph I do have an idea for a house rule:

once a cyber-knight is able to make two psi-swords (RUE65: at 3rd level) allow the option of creating just one two-handed sword with stacked (doubled) damage.

RMB63 (first incarnation of the OCC) had mentioned "huge claymore-like weapon" which was "equally powerful regardless of its form or size" compared to a rapier. That always seemed weird unless you could just wield a huge claymore 1-handed.

In theory there would be an advantage to having a longer sword (better reach) but Rifts generally doesn't deal with that like games like GURPS which use hex combat and reach stats (the downside being inability to parry well against close-range attackers) so the difference is basically RP in Rifts

RUE 64 mentions "a huge claymore or flamberge" being things that knights will create at "second or third" level. I don't think we should have vague guidelines like that (you want to know an exact level when CKs gain the ablity to reshape their sword from the inflexible "shimmering shaft" appearance they're obligated to use at 1st level) so I think it's simplest to say they gain the "reshape" ability at the very same time they gain the ability to make two swords: third level.

Claymores and flamberges are traditionally 2-handed weapons and you might expect some Cyber-Knights would wield them 2-handed.

But is there any incentive at all (statistically, functionally) to wield a psi-sword 2-handed if you're not getting more damage from it?

If there's not, then the "impressed by power" cyber-knights are going to be looked down upon and mocked for making big swords they wield 2H while receiving no benefit at all from doing so.

IE (going to draw on art here, people who hate art impacting rules interpretations avert your eyes) if you look at the trio pictured on pg 3 of SOT4, they're all idiots (pg 101 also shows one of the ladies from this trio)

If however you allow "sword-merging" then suddenly this behavior makes sense: they prefer one weapon wielded at double damage to two weapons where they'd need to make a "Twin Strike" (losing their parry) to match that damage output.

Pg 8 of SOT4 shows one of the knights from Pg 3 holding the same large sword in just his right hand: in this shot he's holding a helmet in his left hand. This might mean that he's creating a big sword to look impressive (but statistically it's just a normal 1H sword) but it still seems weird all three of them on pg 5 would be doing that in a situation where they should be focusing on utility: ie they should have either a 2nd sword or a psi-shield in their other hand, and always wield 1H if 2H doesn't improve.

Pg 101 shows same guy wielding same sword 1-handed (in right hand) because he's keeping his left hand empty to push back a CS-Juicer. This is totally something I would do if Rifts actually had some decent grappling rules: as best I can figure this guy did a left-handed Entangle defense in response to a Juicer's "body block" which would lead to a torso grapple.

If you don't require 2H contact to create/maintain these "merged weapons" then they should probably do normal (not double) damage if not wielding them two-handed.

Pg 82 shows Rigeld doing a 2H hold on a psi-sword. He's 4th level and can definitely make 2 of them, so using this "merge to double" houserule would explain why someone like Rigeld would do this. It's suitable to more straightforward knights who prefer damage over use of their Paired Weapons skill.

Less-straightforward knights like Taloquin/Coake would use two swords and take advantage of how Paired Weapons makes you godly when using (or when targeted with) the "Simultaneous Attack" option, since you can retain a parry if counterattacked with SA or when counterattacking with SA.

Pg 90 shows another knight using 2H grip (his partner is keeping her left hand free to run her fingers through her hair: functional!) as another example.

RUE 62 also shows two knights using 2H grips as well: cape-guy on top-right and elf in the foreground.

The option to double the damage would make Cyber-Knights more versatile and competetive with the traditional super psi.

To give a bit less "instant damage" and put some time-constraints for the damage doubling: consider that it takes 2 melee attacks to reshape a sword.

This probably means it takes FOUR melee attacks to reshape TWO swords, so if you allow cyber-knights to create their standard 1H low-damage swords instantaneously, you could charge them 4 actions to merge the swords to get the higher damage sword.

If just gifting this upgrade to Cyber-Knights is considered too intense: one option might be that to get the double-damage psi-sword you need to forgoe the option to have 2 psi-swords.

You'd still get the paired WP and be able to make a psi-shield for ISP, which would actually explain why we see so many Cyber-Knights using Psi-Shields when there's really no mechanical benefit to that if you could use a psi-weapon instead since you're paying ISP for a duration of something with depletable MDC for at best +1 to parry or whatever WP Shield might slightly out-perform WP sword by (shields in general usually need houserule tweaking Rifts to make sense to use if you have paired WP for mechanical benefit, otherwise it's just RP benefit)

If you want to further buff Cyber-Knights, you could apply the "merge the psi-swords" idea to those rare Cyber-Knights who have access to super psi (RUE64: about 1 in 10) and who select Psi-Sword at level 2, 6 or 10

This would be on top of the 2/5/9/13 bonus they get to their psi-weapons. If that's too strong: perhaps ignore the usual 1/3/6/9/12/15 dice and just add the 2/5/9/13 to the super-psi ISP-fueled version in addition to the OCC ability which doesn't cost ISP?

What I'm envisioning is that a level 2 master cyber-knight might create his 2D6 sword instantly and then focus on it 15 seconds and it boosts up to 6D6 by adding the 4D6 from the power.

You could make an exception to the usual "must be 3rd level" requirement of selecting Psi-Sword, because otherwise they'd need to wait until level 6 or 10 to buy it, which puts it out of reach of most starter knights.

Then again, Psi-Warriors are probably well known for having this weapon yet don't get it until the standard 3rd level either.

There's +2D6 at level 4 so you'd be paying 30 ISP to get a 6D6 MD boost.

Standard CK damage at 6th is 3D6, boosted to 5D6 for being a master-psi, so 5D6+6D6=11D6.

If you allow stacking the super-psi atop stacking your paired WP that would be 16D6.

We're already eclipsing the majority of rune weapons at this point so we should probably be wary. Then again I'm not sure how many of the 10% of masters happen to get Psi-Sword (not even sure if RPwise it's the character who chooses the power, or the player or GM meta-choosing) or how many of them reach 6th so it could be rare enough not to matter.

For those CKs who don't (or can't) choose psi-sword, GMs might allow them to get it later via changing their character class to Psi-Warrior, assuming they could spend years training in an appropriate place. That's the only class I can remember guaranteed to get psi-sword, though I might be forgetting one in one of the Wests books.

A master psionic Cyber-Knight gets a bonus to psi-sword damage.
A native of Psyscape can double the effectiveness of one power.

Not exactly. Let's take a closer look at WB12, starting with pg 29

Only SOME of those born/raised get the special benefits:

83% of psi RCCs (ie masters)
58% of major
32% of minors

This means that the following do NOT get the whole "double a category" benefits:

17% of masters
42% of majors
68% of minors

pg 29 mentions newcomers can learn too, but my guess would be they have an even lower success rate

Reading carefully on pg 30 of WB12 under "5. Extended Psionic Power" ..

"the Master character can have one Super-Psionic ability that is..."

Two things we should keep in mind from this:

1) you need to be a master psi: if you are merely a major psi with a super-psi such as a Mystic or someone with a Psi-Implant, you don't get to double it
2) it needs to be a super-psi power, you could not double something from another category, such as a physical power or a class ability

This leaves master psi RCC classes like the Burster who don't have a super-psi (exception: the added option of Radiate Horror Factor in Psyscape) pretty much out of the loop of enjoying that benefit.

For that reason it's a common house rule to allow this doubling thing for class abilities instead of super psi, for example increasing the damage of a burster's enhanced pyrokinesis.

That's probably the basis for assuming that you could double "class ability" psi-swords like Cyber-Knights / Amaki Duelists instead of the traditional Psi-Sword power. It's a fair thing to allow, so long as we acknowledge that it's not explicitly legal so some GMs could justifiably not permit it.

Of course: the 10% of Cyber-Knights who are Master-Psi and actually select the Psi-Sword power COULD double it, and if using my house rule of being able to stack that power with the free one's damage, would then end up with higher damage but still require that 15-second prep time.

IS IT REALLY a signature weapon of the class.
If you look at the OCC Skills they do not get any sword skills (WP: Sword, Fencing) that one would expect them to have it if it was a signature weapon of the class

yeah that's been the strange case since RMB63, I think they just generally assume that you will select WP Sword.

I guess in theory the ones who don't will probably not case so much about combat and just gain the power to become an official knight, but not improve their sword abilities. The +1 strike/parry at 1st level isn't the hugest of difference so I guess for some reason knights might opt to take a WP in Knife and WP in Archery to be more versatile. It is weird Coake wouldn't make WP sword mandatory training yet would make Body Building mandatory: I guess lugging around heavy backpacks is more important to being a CK (the SDC bonus is certainly not all that useful for someone with AR 16 MDC armor) than being able to hit/parry accurately with your psi-weapon.

The flexible WP makes a bit more sense as of SOT4/RUE when knights could use non-sword forms for their weapons: those who didn't choose WP Sword at 1st obviously would have the intent of making non-sword weapons later on, and not specialize in the sword.

While the CK can select them, they do not appear to have signature weapon of the class given all WPs are chosen, none are fixed. I know how the CKs are depicted which runs counter to this, but from a class perspective it does not appear that Psi-Sword is a signature weapon of the class, feature/ability yes weapon no.

The vast majority of pics show swords (occasionally we see an axe / blunt / hook / staff) probably because most specialize in swords. This makes the most sense since you can't reshape into a non-sword until "2nd or 3rd" level meaning you get no benefit to using your psi-weapon from a non-sword skill at 1st.

It might also be worth asking if the CK Psi-Sword is a true psychic power, or something else that is just called a "psi-sword" for convivence by the writer(s).
RUE (pg83, and SoT4 and RMB IIRC) hints that it might be a Chi power given "The Cyber-Knight's training is such that ALL Knights can call upon their Inner Strength and Spirit (ancient, pre-Rifts Oriental masters might have called this 'chi') to perform superhuman feats as follows"

I take the "and" to mean it's a combination of both.

Personally I think it would be a good house rule to charge a cost of 1 chi and 1 ISP whenever a psi-sword is created.

RUE 63 mentions under PPE that "Oriental masters might have called this "chi")" so you could charge 1 PPE too while you're at it.

This "token one" duo (or trio) of costs is paltry and easy to afford: especially with no ongoing costs to maintain a weapon.

If you want a knight who can switch his sword on/off for fun without exhausting their reservoirs: you could still charge the 1i/1c/1p fee but just give those back to the knight when they voluntarily dispel the weapon.

Taking this approach, it could be seen as not technically in violation of RUE64's "no ISP cost" parenthesis mentioned for psi-sword on upper left: it's not "costing" ISP (you're not losing it) you're just lending/shifting it. You technically still have control of that ISP, and can get it back when you want it.

In cases where the weapons are dispelled involuntarily (the knight is knocked out, a psi-nullifier uses his anti-ISP ability) I wouldn't give the points back though.

Maybe something else like: you can dispel the weapon instantly (doesn't cost melee action) but lose the ISP/chi/PPE invested, but if you spend 1 melee action to "scabbard" the weapon (the metaphorical scabbard being the knight themself) then you recoup the invested ISP/chi/PPE.

You could even treat the ISP/chi spent like a "bonus" reservoir: so a cyber-knight with minimal ISP (ME 11 +1 on the D4/level = 12) might for example, lower himself to 11/12 ISP when creating the sword, then meditate for an hour and get back up to 12 ISP, but then he still has the 1 ISP in his sword so he could use up to 13 ISP on powers in an emergency.

You could even perhaps allow more than 1 ISP to be invested in the weapon. Like for example: you could have the option to invest ISP in place of PPE or Chi if you wanted to, like say if you were at 0 PPE or didn't want to reach 0 chi and be unable to heal.

You could also allow ISP invested as a chi/PPE substitute to count as a bonus reservoir for using powers.

The benefit here (a reservoir of up to 3 extra ISP) helps to fix one problem with the build: Psi-Shield costs 15 ISP which means you could have some cyber-knights incapable of ever creating it at 1st (12) or 2nd (13) or 3rd (14) level, possibly needing to wait until 4th to have enough ISP for it.

Giving this option to build a 3-isp bonus reservoir (doesn't apply if you spent PPE or chi) in your sword guarantees all of them will be able to make the shield at 1st level, although it would require putting ISP into your sword and meditating an hour to get your base back up to full, to have the total of 15 required to do it, at which point you're unsummoning your sword to create the shield, and would need to meditate to regain at least 1 ISP to make your psi sword.

Another interesting idea: maybe do something like charge variable ISP/PPE/chi investments based upon how many dice of damage the sword does, like 1 of each pool per die.

This would help to explain the 6D6 PPE that Cyber-Knights get aside from "so I can conveniently fuel more techno-wizard devices".

This would also be a sensible drawback for the OCC if you're going to houserule new benefits for them like the prior proposed "sword-merging damage stacking" idea.

For more flexibility (example: your knight only has 6 PPE, unlucky, yet his sword can do more than 6D6 damage) aside from letting ISP sub for PPE, you could let chi sub for PPE too, or vice versa. The important thing could just be "you need 3 points per dice, and it can come from any combination of the three sources".

If making the sword from just 1 source seems wrong, you could require a minimum of two, or even a minimum of 3 (at least 1 point from each) but costs beyond 1 could be interchangeable.

Now I am not familiar at all with Chi setting (N&SS/MC) powers so I can not say if this works or not I just know the statement exists which might make this a case of comparing apples to oranges in reality instead of the apparent apples to apples comparison.

N&SS pg 163 mentions Mind Mages (from PF 1st edition) have double the normal chi (PEx2 instead of PE) so you might extrapolate that as a rule for master psi in general. Pg 164 doesn't mention this for HU psychis

This would mean more chi to work with for the master-psi cyberknights who have higher Psi-Sword dice, if charging a 1chi/die investment to create them as I'm proposing as a cool house rule to make the OCC ability seem a bit less "super power" ish

That brings too mind: it's too bad Men at Arms can't get super powers like Adventurer OCCs because there's a power to give energy auras to weapons in Powers Unlimited which you could presumably use to boost a psi-sword.

We do know that super and psi can be compatible: there are options to have both in HU and the Psi-Ghost in Psyscape has both. It's just that strange technicality that Glitter Boy Pilots can't have APS: Fire but an Operator or Wilderness Scout can have APS Fire.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's a big post.

I will say I like the idea of 'merging' two smaller swords into 'one sword' as an option. That would do it for me. Many knights might use two swords, or a sword and hand axe, etc. While some would use a single larger sword. With the option to 'merge' them, it....
1) Allows for more personal expression. In this case it would give mechanical difference to your weapon choice.
2) Yes the write up says that a 4 foot blade on a psi sword does the same as a 1 foot blade (Great sword vs short sword) but that never made much sense. So the 'ability' of someone to conjure both swords then slap them together to make one big sword, makes a lot of sense to me.

As for the "Those impressed with power might create a great sword, and those that like wit might create a rapier or short sword" Thing. MEH.

I say again. MEH.

I've trained with rapiers, foils, epee, sabers. I've trained in Kendo and in HEMA. My preference is a hand and a half sword. For reasons that would bore most people to tears, as it doesn't matter to them, only me. But I prefer that weapon. It has nothing what so ever to do with being impressed with power. More "My size and the way I like to fight".

CK's are going to be the same way. They are going to have preferred style. Some might be good with a rapier and prefer a blade like that. (In college I made it to state finals in Fencing and got my rear HANNNNNNNNNNNNNDED to me by a girl that was maybe 5 feet tall and 80-90lbs.) Others, like my self might prefer a Hand and a half sword. Most, something in between.

So yeah, giving the CK's that want to take the time to merge their two (for lack of better term) Small swords into one big one? That works perfectly for me.

Thanks for the idea.
Yeah it's a house rule, but it's one that easily solves my 'problem'.
I.E. You can use one weaker sword.. or fight two, paired to make up the damage, or if you choose, merge your two, into one larger.

Boom. Easy peasy.

Edit: This also works with other 'shapes'. If you conjure two hand axes, you can merge them into one big two handed battle axe. Or merge two of your weapons into a psi-polearm. etc.

[Axelmania]

So yeah, giving the CK's that want to take the time to merge their two (for lack of better term) Small swords into one big one? That works perfectly for me.

for a visual (and where I got the idea) the 2005 "Rockman NT Warrior" (MegaMan.EXE in dub) anime when Rock and Proto both merges two sword chips (Sword then Wide Sword) outputs via a 3rd chip to form "Long Sword"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDqxgyO-xh0&t=1m51s

Kenpachi's explaining the benefits of 2-handed grip on swords during his fight vs Nnoitra in Bleach also comes to mind, though that's more a "strength benefits" thing which doesn't apply to stuff like Wilks Laser Sword, though I don't know if Psi-Swords resemble that or Vibro-Blades / Rune Weapons in terms of "sub supernatural PS if it's better" rules (or add, in case of HU/NB).

Edit: This also works with other 'shapes'. If you conjure two hand axes, you can merge them into one big two handed battle axe. Or merge two of your weapons into a psi-polearm. etc.

There's also that skill in splicers which gives some abilities akin to paired wp w/ 2h weapons, forget what it's called, could see giving that to CKs too as OCC ability

Or maybe if not both: the CK could choose at 3rd which of the combos they want:

1) two weapons and paired WP (standard)
2) 2H weapon and splicers skill (variant)

To give a point to using psi-shield at all, one idea too: let it be worn on the same forearm you wield a psi-sword with, and be a 2nd chance to parry in addition to the weapon parry, if the weapon parry fails.

[Hotrod]

I shy away from situational bonuses; it's way too easy to get bogged down in book-keeping when there are more than two or three, and I'd rather have those two or three factors be deliberately-engaged factors (cover, visibility, and activated effects) than effects that are supposed to kick in automatically under a set of given circumstances.

The CK initiative bonus is already situational, I just figure it's less complex book-keeping if we considered it in respect to everything (ie "that laser gun my friend is carrying is like coffee to me, so I can punch this Xiticix faster even though the Xiticix has no tech on him) rather than doing "initiative in respect to" which sounds like more difficulty calculating.

The problem is basically:

1) Knight char A moves faster in respect to tech char B
2) Knight char A does NOT move faster in respect to non-tech char C
3) non-tech char C does NOT move faster in respect to tech char B

Giving the bonus to knight A but not non-tech C ends up violating (2)
Giving a bonus to BOTH of them ends up violating (3)
Giving a penalty to tech char B also ends up violating (3)

So I can't really see any kind of solution in dealing with mixed populations...

This is just going with the spirit of the perceived intent, of course. If we go with the LETTER it could be simpler...

RUE65 "knows what his opponent is doing the same instant his opponent does it, enabling the Knight to react a split second faster: +3 on initiative against attacks from modern guns"

This seems to me that rather than being "initiative for the entire round" it's "initiative in respect to a single attack".

IE it would apply in these two situations:

1) quick-drawing a weapon
2) simultaneous attacks

I believe what you would do is calculate initiative normally (this is your "base initiative", sorta) and then you could have temporary (on a per-action bases) shifts in initiative which only apply in respect to interacting with a single attack, where you can choose to alternate the order.

In cases where the CK normally loses initiative by 1 or 2 points, the +3 means that instead of them firing 2nd, they fire 1st.

I don't know how often that's necessarily going to matter because AFAIK regardless of initiative order and consequences of attacks, both simultaneous attacks get carried out.
IE if you simultaneous-attacked in response to someone shooting your gun (and you targeted THEIR gun) you'd both get to shoot each other's guns regardless
the first roll doing enough damage to destroy the other gun doesn't negate that other gun's shot which targets your gun

I could be wrong about that of course, and if I am, then this initiative bonus would make a lot more sense because then whoever gets to roll damage first could in theory negate a simultaneous attack, in effect wasting the target's action (they would've been better off trying to dodge)

The "against attacks" is key.

I'm assuming "+4 against artificial intelligences" is shorthand for "against attacks from artificial intelligences", otherwise the +3/+6 solo or +2/+4 group initiative bonuses would function very differently, the base amounts against humans wielding tech being per-action and the doubled amounts against AI possibly being per-round.

I don't know if that necessarily matters though: I could see omitting "action" as acknowledgement that non-AI can make attacks CK can't sense (ie instead of firing your laser you throw a rock) whereas anything whatsoever an AI does (including throw rocks) a CK can sense, so "action" isn't a necessary distinction: they always get the (relative?) init bonus against those foes, instead of the bonus being conditional and ephemeral against non-AIs.

Note: for simplicity I cropped the above quotes to omit other examples ("and machines" .. "and computers") just using the first example for brevity of comparison.

That's a viable approach to resolving the issue, but I'm more of a "repeal and replace" guy when it comes to Zen Combat. We haven't touched on it in this discussion, but while I really dislike the situational bonus quagmire of Zen Combat, I dislike the anti-tech slant of it even more. I much prefer the original version, with maybe some options to specialize and get options for extra abilities whilst advancing in level.

[Axelmania]

while I really dislike the situational bonus quagmire of Zen Combat,
I dislike the anti-tech slant of it even more.
I much prefer the original version,
with maybe some options to specialize and get options for extra abilities whilst advancing in level.

Just to clarify, you mean the original version of the Cyber-Knight OCC in 1990 which lacked Zen Combat, as opposed to an original version of Zen Combat?
As I'm pretty sure the Zen was anti-tech since it's introduction in SOT4.

The "cyber not PSIber" explanation originally was "because they wear cyber-armor and use guns unlike medieval knights"
but apparently that didn't go far enough so it had to shift from "uses tech" to "wrecks tech" for some reason.

This is actually eerily reminding me of Nightspawn > Nightbane

[Orin J.]

the zen-tech fighting thing is annoying, but i've always had far more of an issue with them making the cyber armor "evolve" as they level up. there's no reason for that and it makes no sense if the rest of the class is designed around disrupting tech for it to just turn it into a living part of the cyber-knight as well.

get rid of that, dumb down the zen combat a bit, maybe make it a "use one action a round to focus for bonus psi-sword damage/penalties to lockon /initiave bonus" sort of meditative deal instead of all that nonsense, and simplify that whole pile of rules for different colors/forms down to "you may spend so-and-so hours meditating to change the default form of your psi-weapon" so you don't have a page of forcing character design into rules that do nothing.

as it is, i only allow the old original version because it's so much less damned bookkeeping.

[Hotrod]

while I really dislike the situational bonus quagmire of Zen Combat,
I dislike the anti-tech slant of it even more.
I much prefer the original version,
with maybe some options to specialize and get options for extra abilities whilst advancing in level.

Just to clarify, you mean the original version of the Cyber-Knight OCC in 1990 which lacked Zen Combat, as opposed to an original version of Zen Combat?
As I'm pretty sure the Zen was anti-tech since it's introduction in SOT4.

The "cyber not PSIber" explanation originally was "because they wear cyber-armor and use guns unlike medieval knights"
but apparently that didn't go far enough so it had to shift from "uses tech" to "wrecks tech" for some reason.

This is actually eerily reminding me of Nightspawn > Nightbane

Just so. I always thought of the Cyber-Knight as the original hybrid class: some psionics, some cybernetics, and a lot of elite training. I'm actually ok with having a more psionics-focused version and an anti-tech-focused version, but I dislike the notion that the class is implicitly and universally anti-tech. I'd rather see a range of development options; that would make the Tolkeen split even more fitting, as the anti-tech knights would be more keen on fighting the CS, while another anti-supernatural branch might find the demonic troops too abhorrent to tolerate, and other branches/traditions might be split.

[Killer Cyborg]

Another thing that's always bugged me is that CKs are psychics with cybernetics, but their anti-tech powers apparently come from neither cybernetics or psionics, and instead are chalked up to "Zen."
That's like saying that Dragons' teleportation powers comes from Buddhism.

[ShadowLogan]

Another thing that's always bugged me is that CKs are psychics with cybernetics, but their anti-tech powers apparently come from neither cybernetics or psionics, and instead are chalked up to "Zen."
That's like saying that Dragons' teleportation powers comes from Buddhism.

Their anti-tech powers though could be explained as psionic in nature though as a specialized form of telemechanics (Paralysis version specifically) and/or electrokensis (#4 and #5 ability). Then again Zen powers depending on where one looks in the megaverse can be powered by ISP (CB1r) or PPE (WB8) or Chi (N&SS/MC), so making a Zen/Martial-Arts-Like-Power connected to a psionic isn't out of the question w/n the rules.

Personally though I do not like the Zen Combat upgrade the CK received in SoT4, the psionic upgrades aren't bad overall and the living cyber armor isn't game breaking (its not like a CK should be relying on their Cyber-Armor for protection). This doesn't seem like a natural growth for the Class, if they wanted an Anti-Tech class like this it would have been a better fit as a separate class IMHO rather than shoe-horn it into an existing class.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

I found Hotrod's thread on the Zen combat style and it's brokenness a pretty interesting read. I'll have to discuss that with the player if they are willing to change some aspects. Some parts I wish I had implemented before the campaign started.

I wonder if the Cyber-Knight's anti tech motif is more of a philosophical stance on the world. The Rifts world, while also filled with magic and psionics, is almost dominated with technology. I think they are suppose to be how the old world meets the new with a combination and an advantage over it. However, in scale they have an immense amount of power. In other instances a Power Armor pilot can wipe the floor with some run of the mill infantry, but against a CK they are diminished. Being the inherent good guys of the world, they need something of an advantage against the world that is full of tech and to do that they have developed something of an anti-tech aura around them.

I think I might agree that an anti-tech variant of a CK would have been more appreciated.

[Killer Cyborg]

Another thing that's always bugged me is that CKs are psychics with cybernetics, but their anti-tech powers apparently come from neither cybernetics or psionics, and instead are chalked up to "Zen."
That's like saying that Dragons' teleportation powers comes from Buddhism.

Their anti-tech powers though could be explained as psionic in nature though as a specialized form of telemechanics (Paralysis version specifically) and/or electrokensis (#4 and #5 ability).

YUP.
But it wasn't.
So we're left with CKs having a power that apparently be negated by Psi-Nullifiers, nor Negate Super Powers, nor Anti-Magic Cloud, nor any kind of anti-tech attack.
Until somebody comes up with an Anti-Zen Field or whatever, the CKs have three types of power: Psionics, Cybernetics, and Zen.

Personally though I do not like the Zen Combat upgrade the CK received in SoT4, the psionic upgrades aren't bad overall and the living cyber armor isn't game breaking (its not like a CK should be relying on their Cyber-Armor for protection). This doesn't seem like a natural growth for the Class, if they wanted an Anti-Tech class like this it would have been a better fit as a separate class IMHO rather than shoe-horn it into an existing class.

I'm cool with some of the sword changes, and the armor... kinda.
It's the anti-tech powers that are the most problematic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you guys are looking perhaps a bit too deep into it.

We all know what the CK's are an 'Homage' to.

Just like we know 'why' they have Psi-swords.

We also know how worried Palladium is about copy write. And the "No conversion" Policy.

The CK's are a clear Homage (Though it can be argued that the Psi-Warrior of Psyscape does it better but that book came out long after the RMB). The "Zen Combat", is just what they're calling another..... Force.... of nature or the universe. In this case, likely to avoid that dreaded IP infringement changed just enough, to not get flagged. Just like the CK's are changed just enough to be an Homage and not a copy that could invite lawsuit. So they changed it to focus on tech.

You know.. Like people with laser swords in movies do all the time. Parrying blaster bolts, flipping and jumping around in combat. Highly acrobatic and what have you. Using their special powers, and defending people as... Knights.

As a small point people DO think it's akin to Telemechanics, but it's described as more.
Cyber knights book, page 18
""Cyber-Knights gain a sort of mystical ability as they master their martial arts and grow with experience. One such ability is a unique rapport with technology. An awareness of combat weapons and machinery. Some believe this ability is a psychic power similar to Tele-Mechanics, but it is very different. You see, the experienced Cyber-Knight can so tightly focus on the combat at hand, that he can reach out with his mind and senses to touch the machines around him. He can feel the gun turret charging before it fires. He knows when a weapon is pointed at him and when a targeting computer has him in its cross-hairs. Likewise, he can feel a suit of power armor, robot, or 'Borg sneaking up behind him or zooming down from above."

That sounds very much like..... the sort of thing that the CK's are a clear homage to, doesn't it?

"Zen combat" Is just a label that was put on it, so it wasn't called something else. Don't worry about it too much. This is Rifts. A dragon can metamorph into a cat with hands, pick up a rail gun and shoot you with it, while screaming at you and laughing as you try and blast 'the cat' that has plenty of mega damage for such shenanigans. There's floopers.... there's butter trolls. (And someone told me that there's a HUUUUUUUGE number of them in Lazlo for some reason.) Vampires can take rail gun blasts to the face. Plasma blasts to the face. Laser blasts from cannons or giant robots to the face and laugh... but a .99cent water pistol can hurt them. There's tech nations with millions of people that supposedly can't read, but have nuclear power plants the size of hockey pucks. If you try and hold things TOO tightly to a logical standard the game falls apart so very quickly.

[Orin J.]

i mean, i know that and you know that, but man the rules are just super-jank, and if we have to throw out the implications and build something else so i can streamline combat enough that i don't wince when i'm trying to teach the game to someone that wants an energy sword "like in the movies" and i wanna throw them out. with a trebuchet.

[Pepsi Jedi]

i mean, i know that and you know that, but man the rules are just super-jank, and if we have to throw out the implications and build something else so i can streamline combat enough that i don't wince when i'm trying to teach the game to someone that wants an energy sword "like in the movies" and i wanna throw them out. with a trebuchet.

It's literally one class. out of like 500
If you don't like the Zen Combat.
Don't use it.

Why wince at all? If you think it's that 'super-jank' just don't use it.

Personally I have no problem with it. It's their 'thing'. It's no more arcane than any other aspect of Palladium's combat system. lol.

If it's a new player just go "Well CK are supposed to have this weird tech combat stuff but it'll confuse you. So either play one of the 500 other classes, or if you're going to be a CK just use hand to hand martial arts and WP Sword for your Psisword. Once you've played a few games and have the combat down we can either let you have the Zen combat, or after you play a few chars, you can try a CK"

That... handles it. 3 sentences. Right?

[Axelmania]

Their anti-tech powers though could be explained as psionic in nature though as a specialized form of telemechanics (Paralysis version specifically) and/or electrokensis (#4 and #5 ability).

Yet strangely no defensive benefits of this sort given to either the Psi-Tech or the Zapper

the living cyber armor isn't game breaking
(its not like a CK should be relying on their Cyber-Armor for protection).

Depends on how well equipped the party is, really. If GM enforces repair costs and doesn't reward with huge loots, self-healing armor like this would be SUPER useful even with an AR.

we're left with CKs having a power that apparently be negated by Psi-Nullifiers, nor Negate Super Powers

It essentially did become a minor super ability in Powers Unlimited, but I don't think you're supposed to be able to use NSA to negate "taught" powers like in HU2 how Physical Training gets Superhuman PS or how an Ancient Master gets Ext PE or Healing Factor, or how you can be an Alien with inborne super powers instead of mutant/experiment ones.

I think you guys are looking perhaps a bit too deep into it.

We all know what the CK's are an 'Homage' to.

Just like we know 'why' they have Psi-swords.

Not everything has to be a Jedi...
1) Jedi relied on a physical object to make the weapon
2) other people could use the weapon
3) they could bounce lasers back at people

We also know how worried Palladium is about copy write.
And the "No conversion" Policy.

This is kinda funny since GURPS doesn't even hide how their "force sword" tech melee weapon is clearly a lightsaber

The CK's are a clear Homage (Though it can be argued that the Psi-Warrior of Psyscape does it better but that book came out long after the RMB). The "Zen Combat", is just what they're calling another..... Force.... of nature or the universe.
In this case, likely to avoid that dreaded IP infringement changed just enough, to not get flagged.

and yet the Psi-Warrior had "Intuitive Combat" which was not tech-specific and a lot more flexible like force sensitivity is

Like people with laser swords in movies do all the time. Parrying blaster bolts, flipping and jumping around in combat. Highly acrobatic and what have you. Using their special powers, and defending people as... Knights.

It works well in the fluff but we lack the crunch incentive to do flips.

BTW if cyber-K were meant to be jedi they'd get TK more reliably, Psi-Warrior definitely drifts closer there.

"He can feel the gun turret charging before it fires. He knows when a weapon is pointed at him and when a targeting computer has him in its cross-hairs. Likewise, he can feel a suit of power armor, robot, or 'Borg sneaking up behind him or zooming down from above."

That sounds very much like..... the sort of thing that the CK's are a clear homage to, doesn't it?

I dunno, what scenes in 4/5/6 had that sorta thing?

I remember Yoda in ep 3 sensing the clone troopers coming to get him and doing his backflip+spin+doublebehead but that came after Rifts.

A dragon can metamorph into a cat with hands

Actually wondering about that: are dragons obligated to emulate specific species or just do some kind of weird Boschala menagerie?

There's floopers.... there's butter trolls.
(And someone told me that there's a HUUUUUUUGE number of them in Lazlo for some reason.)

oh dear, clearly need to crack out WB30 again there's some more I missed

Vampires can take rail gun blasts to the face.
Plasma blasts to the face.
Laser blasts from cannons or giant robots to the face and laugh...
but a .99cent water pistol can hurt them.

This makes me wonder if 1996 film "From Dusk Til Dawn" was inspired by Vampire Kingdoms, they use squirtguns in that.

Or did something in 80s predate Rifts for that?

There's tech nations with millions of people that supposedly can't read,
but have nuclear power plants the size of hockey pucks.
If you try and hold things TOO tightly to a logical standard the game falls apart so very quickly.

Nothing illogical about this at all, it's been clear from outset that whoever runs the nuclear plants in Coalition gets special literacy authorizations.

[Pepsi Jedi]

the living cyber armor isn't game breaking
(its not like a CK should be relying on their Cyber-Armor for protection).

Depends on how well equipped the party is, really. If GM enforces repair costs and doesn't reward with huge loots, self-healing armor like this would be SUPER useful even with an AR.

Not really. It's pretty hard to throw dice and not surpass a low AR, unless you're just fighting total losers, that would run instead of fight a CK anyway. If they're ballsy enough to throw down with a CK, chances are they can beat the AR on Cyber armor, and it only takes once. If you're down to 'Just' cyber armor, you really REALLY don't want to get in an MD fight.

It's more like for protection in an SDC fight than anything. Where if they beat your AR you take a hit, but aren't vaporized.

I think you guys are looking perhaps a bit too deep into it.

We all know what the CK's are an 'Homage' to.

Just like we know 'why' they have Psi-swords.

Not everything has to be a Jedi...

lol no. Not everything has to be. But it's extremely clear when things -are-.

1) Jedi relied on a physical object to make the weapon

Yes. You read the part where I pointed out due to fear of litigation, things were changed juuuust enough to not get taken to court right?

2) other people could use the weapon

Not well. Many many were the notations that the gyroscopic effect of the weapon in question made it very difficult for others to use, thus needing special skill training, not to mention needing specialized 'powers' to construct said weapon formally.

3) they could bounce lasers back at people

Yes. It's not a 100% direct copy Axel. Because Palladium is extreamly fearful of litigation. As they're a litigious company themselves. So they assume everyone else will be too.
Or.. you can state it as "Palladium is so protective of their own IPs and cherish them to the point they don't want to share their OWN IP's so they would never think of directly copying something from another IP

Result is the same. the CK's are a clear homage to something we all know. If an imperfect homage... cuz they don't wanna end up in court.

We also know how worried Palladium is about copy write.
And the "No conversion" Policy.

This is kinda funny since GURPS doesn't even hide how their "force sword" tech melee weapon is clearly a lightsaber

Palladium has always been punchy about being hyper protective of their own IPs (Many of us remember the C&D letters they sent out to try and shut down websites) and how quick they are to go to court when they perceive their IP being challenged (Right or wrong, above the board, and justified, or no, either way they jump at it)

Most other RPGs allow conversions on their forums, but not palladium. You can get warned and banned if you convert here.

The CK's are a clear Homage (Though it can be argued that the Psi-Warrior of Psyscape does it better but that book came out long after the RMB). The "Zen Combat", is just what they're calling another..... Force.... of nature or the universe.
In this case, likely to avoid that dreaded IP infringement changed just enough, to not get flagged.

and yet the Psi-Warrior had "Intuitive Combat" which was not tech-specific and a lot more flexible like force sensitivity is

*Shrugs* I pointed out that it can be argued that the Psi-Warrior is a better homage, but they're different classes. I still think that the focus on the tech aspect was put in to differenciate the CK from what they were an homage to.

It's something that can be pointed at and go "See Judge. Our creation is DIFFERENT"

That doesn't make it bad, but explains the focus.

Like people with laser swords in movies do all the time. Parrying blaster bolts, flipping and jumping around in combat. Highly acrobatic and what have you. Using their special powers, and defending people as... Knights.

It works well in the fluff but we lack the crunch incentive to do flips.

But it's specificly cited in the fluff and write up, and demonstrated in the story about Thorp going up against the 4 CS troops. one in Glitter boy killer armor. It's mentioned multiple times that such acrobatics are part of what gives them the bonuses. Even if you are not 'rolling' for each flip summersaut and leap along the way.

BTW if cyber-K were meant to be jedi they'd get TK more reliably, Psi-Warrior definitely drifts closer there.

Psi-Warriors were done almost a decade later Axel, and many of their TK abilitys were written specificly for the book they popped up in, at that later date to better explain and personify it.
And..... I stated from the jump, that one can argue that the later class is also an Homage and does it 'better'. That doesn't mean that CK's weren't the first swing at it.

"He can feel the gun turret charging before it fires. He knows when a weapon is pointed at him and when a targeting computer has him in its cross-hairs. Likewise, he can feel a suit of power armor, robot, or 'Borg sneaking up behind him or zooming down from above."

That sounds very much like..... the sort of thing that the CK's are a clear homage to, doesn't it?

I dunno, what scenes in 4/5/6 had that sorta thing?

I'm not going to give you a play by play of source material literally 40 years deep man. lol It's there. Often, and alot.

I remember Yoda in ep 3 sensing the clone troopers coming to get him and doing his backflip+spin+doublebehead but that came after Rifts.

A dragon can metamorph into a cat with hands

Actually wondering about that: are dragons obligated to emulate specific species or just do some kind of weird Boschala menagerie?

Size limits down to roughly the size of a cat. Other than that they can polymorph.

There's floopers.... there's butter trolls.
(And someone told me that there's a HUUUUUUUGE number of them in Lazlo for some reason.)

oh dear, clearly need to crack out WB30 again there's some more I missed

Again I don't actually have the Lazlo book, but I've been following threads online. I've seen it stated that the Lazlo population is 2-3,000,000
And 1% of the population are butter trolls
That's 20,000-30,000 butter trolls *Shudders*

Thirty THOUSAND Buttertrolls.

Vampires can take rail gun blasts to the face.
Plasma blasts to the face.
Laser blasts from cannons or giant robots to the face and laugh...
but a .99cent water pistol can hurt them.

This makes me wonder if 1996 film "From Dusk Til Dawn" was inspired by Vampire Kingdoms, they use squirtguns in that.

Or did something in 80s predate Rifts for that?

Lost Boys came out in 1987.

There's tech nations with millions of people that supposedly can't read,
but have nuclear power plants the size of hockey pucks.
If you try and hold things TOO tightly to a logical standard the game falls apart so very quickly.

Nothing illogical about this at all, it's been clear from outset that whoever runs the nuclear plants in Coalition gets special literacy authorizations.

You can't have a society built around high tech, so high that they have nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks, kept high tech by a minute minority of the people. By the logic from the books, the CS troopers couldn't even tell you what unit they're in, because they can't even tell letters of the alphabet apart or count. You couldn't have a paying society if noone knows what the numbers mean to even know how much they get paid or what things cost. But this has been debated ad nausium many many MANY times before. I would suggest, saving time and effort typing about it, to go and look at one of the dozens and dozens of debates that went 100s and 100s posts long.

[Curbludgeon]

Fisking is an attempt to stop discussion via a wall of text disguised as engaging in good faith, and you all know it.

Insofar as roughly half of Zen Combat is derived from the minor superpower Mechanical Awareness I could see another variant replacement being a leveled progression of 2 minor superpowers from a limited list (e.g. sensory, extraordinary attributes excluding speed, nightstalking) or with the sacrifice of Cyber Armor 1 major from a sharply limited list (Karmic Power, Natural Combat Ability with some skills to compensate those made redundant, maybe some healing, Alter Metabolism as a "high on life" pseudo-Juicer).

[Orin J.]

Fisking is an attempt to stop discussion via a wall of text disguised as engaging in good faith, and you all know it.

that's the first time i've had that term defined to me, actually.

[ShadowLogan]

Yet strangely no defensive benefits of this sort given to either the Psi-Tech or the Zapper

Your point, the fact that powers like Telemechanics family, Machine Ghost, and Electrokinesis exist shows that Psionics can influence machines, which the Cyber-Knight Zen Combat does. Now those powers do not confer combat modifiers when used, that does not mean there can not be a specialized form of those powers that do. Afterall the Cyber Knight is regarded as having a specialized version of the psi-sword (different damage table, different activation cost, different activation time).

Depends on how well equipped the party is, really. If GM enforces repair costs and doesn't reward with huge loots, self-healing armor like this would be SUPER useful even with an AR.

Except it is clearly stated that Cyber-Armor is not their primary means of protection, regular MD body armor IS. RUE pg65 (or SOT#4 pg26) when discussing Cyber Armor's AR rating: "This is why all Cyber-Knights wear exterior suits of M.D. armor. Cyber-Armor is intended only to provide additional protection and give the Knight an extra edge in combat."

We all know what the CK's are an 'Homage' to.

Thundarr the Barbarian.

He seems a more direct fit than Star Wars Jedi, at least the original RMB version and not the recton in SoT4/RUE, giving he wanders a post-apocalypse earth fighting for good and wields an energy sword that only he can summon (the Sunsword will only works for one person). That is not to say Thundarr doesn't have its Star Wars homages.

[The Beast]

We all know what the CK's are an 'Homage' to.

I never got that vibe from them.

[Hotrod]

I got more of a "Knights Hospitaller, circa the Great Siege of Malta" vibe from the Cyber-Knights. They're an anachronistic order of knights committed to a cause that somehow stays relevant without committing to any political power.

[Mack]

I always got a "modernized paladin" feel from them.

[Hotrod]

I always got a "modernized paladin" feel from them.

I can see that too, especially the RMB version.

[Axelmania]

Except it is clearly stated that Cyber-Armor is not their primary means of protection, regular MD body armor IS.
RUE pg65 (or SOT#4 pg26) when discussing Cyber Armor's AR rating:
"This is why all Cyber-Knights wear exterior suits of M.D. armor.
Cyber-Armor is intended only to provide additional protection and give the Knight an extra edge in combat."

Yes the INTENT is that Cyber-Knights are WEALTHY individuals who own expensive MDC armor, but that doesn't mean they'll necessarily enjoy that benefit in certain campaigns.

Exterior suits can get destroyed, stolen, sold to purchase food for orphans, etc.

[Axelmania]

Thundarr the Barbarian.

He seems a more direct fit than Star Wars Jedi, at least the original RMB version and not the recton in SoT4/RUE, giving he wanders a post-apocalypse earth fighting for good and wields an energy sword that only he can summon (the Sunsword will only works for one person).

We should also probably consider the Blazing Sword of Voltron as a potential influence, since that was also manifested as a blade of energy out of nowhere (wasn't in some scabbard, not even a handle) before solidifying into something more visual

Marvel Comics' Psylocke (October 1986) also might've been an influence, her 'psychic knife' is a lot closer to the "blade made entirely of psychic will" than a lightsaber.

[Killer Cyborg]

Fisking is an attempt to stop discussion via a wall of text disguised as engaging in good faith, and you all know it.

that's the first time i've had that term defined to me, actually.

That’s not the definition.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fisking

[The Beast]

Well whatever the definition is I don't think it has anything to do with Cyber Knights or their psi-swords.