Looking for a 'Tinkerer' style Class/OCC/Category

[Daniel Stoker]

So in an upcoming game I've been given permission to plumb the breadth of the Palladium System to make a Super Hero tinker style hero who makes 'magic' devices for their use and possible limited use for others. They won't ever be mass producing most of what they make, but they might be making a few bespoke items now and again for the rest of the team.

My first thought was to go with Techno-Wizard since that seemed the easiest to transfer over and cover most of what I was looking at and shouldn't be to overpowered. I had already decided the Mystic Kuznya wouldn't work as they're more 'low tech' then what I was aiming for, but there's also the Gizmoteer from South America 2 that I could pull from. So at this point looking for others suggestions as to what they think would might work while not being to over powered but also not to limited either.

Thanks!


Daniel Stoker

[drewkitty ~..~]

the closest thing is the Super inventions power cat in PU2.

I've written up a Psi-Hardware char. This text is a longer then the TW Const. rules text. (ask me)

And I just wrote up a Psi-Crafter class for PF2. (PF forum)

Note that the SA 2 gizmoteer is a RCC and limited to that race. And the construction rules for it have been proven to be broken, they don't work as intended. So there is a 99.9999% chance of them being omitted from any update of the SA2 book.

TW are fine if you want the magic items made to look like tech items.

The M. K..... *shrugs* you might be able to murge this with the Ancient Weapons Master power cat to try to make things work.

[Daniel Stoker]

Super Inventions seemed more like making an Iron Man suit and you're stuck with just that, for this character I was looking for the ability to make new interesting stuff based on what we need.

As to the other two you mention, if you can PM them to me I'd appreciate it.

And yeah, I know the giz is limited, but that's what makes bending the rules fun... but that being said I agree as a whole the rules for them just don't make a lot of sense which is why they were low on my list, but they were one of the few other legit examples I could find.


Daniel Stoker

[Glistam]

The techno-wizard is probably your best option. There's a variant in Dinosaur Swamp that makes things more "naturally" called the Eco-Wizard that could be worth looking at. Necromancers who know Bone Magic can surprisingly make quite a few magic items with their spells, but they don't really come ip with new ones.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And yeah, I know the giz is limited, but that's what makes bending the rules fun... but that being said I agree as a whole the rules for them just don't make a lot of sense which is why they were low on my list, but they were one of the few other legit examples I could find.


Daniel Stoker

From making my Techno Psi I know why it's broken, it's not detailed enough and they tried to make it a TW clone.

My Psi-Crafter class has been posted in the PF forum. It's crafter rules are a bit loose as to cover a lot of things. Thus, there ""should"" be two people involved with item creation.

[Curbludgeon]

How high-tech were you wanting the character to seem? Nuhr Dwarves as depicted in Rifts SB4 and WB30 make use of what's only described as a rough equivalent to the Mystic Kuznya for their Rune Makers, and they can create rune muskets and the like. It's arguable if they gain the supernatural strength, M.D.C. or spellcasting of the Mystic Kuznya, which if a fun bending of the rules is on the table provides some fodder to exchange. Alternatively, given how limited Woodland Druids from WB3 are, a variant Scathach with access to some mechanical skills should be able to create something approaching a gizmo. More broadly, Eeeevil classes like the NPC Soulcrafter from the Rifts Vampire Sourcebook can throw a wide variety of abilities onto a small weapon that another can use, while Soulmancers can vaguely create whatever as long as it's metal enough and you're ok with a character chaining blood sacrifices.

[Regularguy]

So in an upcoming game I've been given permission to plumb the breadth of the Palladium System to make a Super Hero tinker style hero who makes 'magic' devices for their use and possible limited use for others. They won't ever be mass producing most of what they make, but they might be making a few bespoke items now and again for the rest of the team.

One idea I’ve toyed with before: an Imbued character, of the type where anyone can use the imbuing agent but it first has to be tailored to their individual body chemistry; and the twist is, the only powers up for grabs are likewise of a ‘tailored’ sort.

Take, say, Totem Energy Aura: depending on their personality traits, one recipient would get ‘nightvision’ stuff that makes him immune to magic; another, some flightgear that bestows extraordinary mental affinity; a third, an item that lets him move at sonic speed, or a water-breathing amulet that grants superstrength — or whatever, be it enhanced leaping or a knack for criminal intuition. And you could add Extraordinary Intelligence: for one guy that could be a boost to disguise skills and impersonation work; for another, botany and holistic medicine; for another, computer programming and computer hacking; and so on.

(The tinker’s boosted skills would presumably involve building stuff with ‘beyond 100%’ ability, and his totemic power might involve an unusual knack for surveillance systems: stressing that, even after handing out bespoke items, he’s still the team’s ‘device’ guy.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

I do believe that HU is a SDC game. As such any reference to things being MDC in it is someone not paying attention to which game is being talked about here.

Warning: Someone is violating the rule against flaming/flamebaiting, even if they are trying to be clever about it. Warning.

[Borast]

BTS has the Psi-Mechanic, and N&S has the Gizmoteer.
The Rifter #10 has the Tinkerer

[Curbludgeon]

The above insult has been noted and reported.

[Glistam]

I do believe that HU is a SDC game. As such any reference to things being MDC in it is someone not paying attention to which game is being talked about here.

Page 341 of the Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition has a weapon with a damage value noted in Mega Damage Capacity. References to things being Mega Damage Capacity is within the canon of the game system, and appropriate for this discussion regardless since the scope of this topic is about bringing in options from other Palladium books into a person's Heroes Unlimited game. Knowing if the class makes a character Mega Damage Capacity or not affects how it may be converted.

[Daniel Stoker]

Thanks for the suggestions Curbludgeon but I was looking for more modern day tech/high tech so I'm not sure the Nuhr Dwarves would be much better. But I had totally spaced on them so thank you for bringing them up.

Your idea sounds cool Regularguy, but I'm not sure how well that would work for me, but I may end up stealing that for the baddie in the next game I run.

I think you're right about the TW being my best bet Glistam but a Necro could be fun if I wasn't looking at playing with more techy type of toys, and I'm actually looking to spedifically avoid eco type weapons with this character, but that normally wouldn't be a bad idea. (They're going to be from a plant race and I'm trying to avoid that trope for a change.)

And thank you Borat, I think I blocked the Psi-Mechanic out because from what I remembered from BTS1 they seemed really limited, but I'll give them a look again. Sadly I don't have any of the Rifters anymore so I'm not sure what the Tinkerer had, I'll have to see what I can find there.

If I missed anyone thank you too for responding here, I appreciate the help.


Daniel Stoker

[Curbludgeon]

The Tinkerer in the Rifter is for Palladium Fantasy, and is more of a Medieval steampunk/Stylized Leonardo da Vinci/demolitions/weaponsmithing sort of class than anything else.

If you're willing to borrow a copy from a friend or something, Rifter 13 might be worth checking out. The "optional" article Dark Techno-Wizardry has two potentially relevant classes. The Necro-Tech is essentially a Technowizard with an increased emphasis on the Necromancer's spell list, who substitutes spooky stuff like powdered bat skulls for crystals when creating devices, and can make necrotech bionics that don't interfere with the recipient's magic/psionic abilities. Downplaying the organic associations seem like it could be fun for a plant person emphasizing the advantages to other plant people, in a "I know we don't have skeletons, but let me shove one eensy jawbone in, and you can breath fire" sort of way.

The Technoshifter might be a better fit. Unable to personally cast spells, they build devices to summon and subsequently bind entities and supernatural beings within other items, whose abilities can then be accessed by people whom don't have to have any magical or psychic abilites themselves. I could see one as a magitek antihero take on Green Lantern, who recharges their personal Ring of Solomon by saying an oath in front of a Ghostbusters Ecto-Containment Unit.

[Daniel Stoker]

Hmm... that does sound interesting. I'll have to see about digging up a copy, thanks again Curbludgeon.


Daniel Stoker

[drewkitty ~..~]

I do believe that HU is a SDC game. As such any reference to things being MDC in it is someone not paying attention to which game is being talked about here.

Page 341 of the Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition has a weapon with a damage value noted in Mega Damage Capacity. References to things being Mega Damage Capacity is within the canon of the game system, and appropriate for this discussion regardless since the scope of this topic is about bringing in options from other Palladium books into a person's Heroes Unlimited game. Knowing if the class makes a character Mega Damage Capacity or not affects how it may be converted.

Lets see here...hummm...one listing that was mislabeled as MDC when the correct labeling would of MD.
That listing of the MD is showing 'This one item does MD in Rifts if this equipment is taken into the Rifts game." It is not saying 'this item/being is MDC in the HU game'. As the grumpy one's text asserts when read as is.

[Glistam]

I do believe that HU is a SDC game. As such any reference to things being MDC in it is someone not paying attention to which game is being talked about here.

Page 341 of the Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition has a weapon with a damage value noted in Mega Damage Capacity. References to things being Mega Damage Capacity is within the canon of the game system, and appropriate for this discussion regardless since the scope of this topic is about bringing in options from other Palladium books into a person's Heroes Unlimited game. Knowing if the class makes a character Mega Damage Capacity or not affects how it may be converted.

Lets see here...hummm...one listing that was mislabeled as MDC when the correct labeling would of MD.
That listing of the MD is showing 'This one item does MD in Rifts if this equipment is taken into the Rifts game." It is not saying 'this item/being is MDC in the HU game'. As the grumpy one's text asserts when read as is.

The text says nothing about Rifts.

AN-M14 TH3 Incendiary Hand Grenade: This is one of the most dangerous weapons and not just for the enemy. It is difficult or impossible to throw it far enough to avoid getting hit with frag­ments. Damage: up to 12 feet (3.6 m) from impact - 2D4x10+20 S.D.C. (or 1 M.D.C.); 12-24 feet (3.6 to 7.3 m) away 1D6x10; 25-36 feet (7.6-11 m) away - 5D6; 37-120 feet (11.3- 36.6 m) away -2D6. Burns for 10 melee rounds. Weight: 24 ounces (0.7 kg). Time Delay Fuse: 4-5 seconds. Effective Casualty Radius: Lethal up to 60 feet (18.3 m), dangerous to 120 feet (36.7 m). Cost: $30.00

By canon, MDC is in Heroes Unlimited. Imagining the author's intent or imposing imaginary formatting guidelines that don't actually exist doesn't change what's been printed.

[Kraynic]

By canon, MDC is in Heroes Unlimited.

You sure about that? This game is in the S.D.C. section of the forums. There is no mention of MDC in the character creation section of HU2. There is no mention of MDC in the combat section where it has a glossary of all the different terms/resources used in combat for HU2.

Using one entry on a grenade that might be a copy/paste error from another system to justify having MDC as a standard part of Heroes Unlimited seems to be quite the stretch to me.

[drewkitty ~..~]

By saying it does 1 MD in the way they inserted it as a note in (), it is saying the part that mentions MDC is for rifts without any other words.

When I read it it was an obvious rifts conversion note. Because the SD/SDC game does not support the use of MD/MDC ideas within the Game.

Sort of like how if your parent or spouse asks you 'have you have taken out the trash?' or 'Does the trash need to be taken out?' They are also communicating 'will you take out the trash?' or 'the trash needs to be taken out.'

[Glistam]

By saying it does 1 MD in the way they inserted it as a note in (), it is saying the part that mentions MDC is for rifts without any other words.

When I read it it was an obvious rifts conversion note. Because the SD/SDC game does not support the use of MD/MDC ideas within the Game.

Your interpretation is valid, but is not canon. The entry does not mention Rifts. It could be talking about Robotech. But all this energy is being expended on a moot point: the Heroes Unlikited book has M.D.C. in it. Talking about M.D.C. in a Heroes Unlimited related discussion is appropriate, by canon, regardless of anyone's personal interpretation.

Sort of like how if your parent or spouse asks you 'have you have taken out the trash?' or 'Does the trash need to be taken out?' They are also communicating 'will you take out the trash?' or 'the trash needs to be taken out.'

It's nice of you to assume that, I imagine that makes your parent or spouse happy. But no, those questions mean what they say and whatever else you assume from them is your own bias.

[Glistam]

By canon, MDC is in Heroes Unlimited.

You sure about that? This game is in the S.D.C. section of the forums. There is no mention of MDC in the character creation section of HU2. There is no mention of MDC in the combat section where it has a glossary of all the different terms/resources used in combat for HU2.

Using one entry on a grenade that might be a copy/paste error from another system to justify having MDC as a standard part of Heroes Unlimited seems to be quite the stretch to me.

Yet the fact remains that there is an entry in Heroes Unlimited which explicitly mentions M.D.C., and it is not called out in the text as a conversion note, or only applicable in certain settings. The intent behind that mention can be questioned and interpreted, and I don't personally disagree with some of the interpretations being offered, but ultimately its inclusion in the core book of Heroes Unlimited means this earlier comment in this thread was insulting and completely uncalled for, especially in relation to this topic itself:

I do believe that HU is a SDC game. As such any reference to things being MDC in it is someone not paying attention to which game is being talked about here.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip... But all this energy is being expended on a moot point: the Heroes Unlikited book has M.D.C. in it. Talking about M.D.C. in a Heroes Unlimited related discussion is appropriate, by canon, regardless of anyone's personal interpretation.

Only if you take the mentioning of it out of the context in it was mentioned.

[Kraynic]

Yet the fact remains that there is an entry in Heroes Unlimited which explicitly mentions M.D.C., and it is not called out in the text as a conversion note, or only applicable in certain settings.

Well, in your games you can obviously do whatever you wish. I doubt that is going to convince people in general that HU is an MDC game though. Good luck on your crusade.

[Curbludgeon]

In further plumbing the depths of the Palladium system, as Mr. Stoker's original post indicated, I've been thinking about classes that get limited access crafting skills. In addition to those like Techno-Wizardry Construction found in RUE and Mystic Herbology, there are skills like Genetic Manipulation of Living Technology in the Primorder "optional" article from Rifter 3, and the Bio-E manipulation found in Splicers. The Tinker can create some materials normally reserved for the Palladium Alchemist, and Hardware characters from Heroes Unlimited can get skills like Building Super Machines and Build/Modify Armor which make explicit that which might otherwise only be inferred from other Mechanical skills.

Do other skills like these come to mind for anyone? I could see value in writing up an Inventor that can utilize preternatural effects without themselves being spellcasters or psychics, but would want to first gather more source material.

[Borast]

The Tinkerer in the Rifter is for Palladium Fantasy, and is more of a Medieval steampunk/Stylized Leonardo da Vinci/demolitions/weaponsmithing sort of class than anything else.

Well, the OP, DID say he was given permission to plumb the depths of Palladium's entire Megaverse.

Besides, with the almost Rube Goldberg-esque of Steampunk tech, the GM and Player can both have fun with it!

Besides, I'm pretty sure a tinkerer is one of the only that would try to make an Escher drawing work with tech.

[Regularguy]

Super Inventions seemed more like making an Iron Man suit and you're stuck with just that, for this character I was looking for the ability to make new interesting stuff based on what we need.

What if you use Super Invention to slap, say, Extraordinary Intelligence and Mechano-Link and Reconstruction and Speed Tasking on top of, well, also being a Hardware character?

Also, just wanted to mention BGCS from Ninjas & Superspies: you pick a better-than-50-50 specialty (souping up vehicles, or building cybernetic attachments, or putting together and modifying weapons, or constructing sensors and alarms and complex traps and locking mechanisms); and, regardless of which specialty you pick, you get “a minimum chance of success of 5%” to create any gizmo. Which maybe isn’t all that great in itself; but note that one of the specialties is computer programs, be it computer viruses or computer-assisted cryptography or whatever — and one such program is a computer simulation of whatever BGCS attempt you’re about to make, which grants a +20% to that try, which could get pretty weird pretty fast.

[Glistam]

So in an upcoming game I've been given permission to plumb the breadth of the Palladium System to make a Super Hero tinker style hero who makes 'magic' devices for their use and possible limited use for others. They won't ever be mass producing most of what they make, but they might be making a few bespoke items now and again for the rest of the team.

My first thought was to go with Techno-Wizard since that seemed the easiest to transfer over and cover most of what I was looking at and shouldn't be to overpowered. I had already decided the Mystic Kuznya wouldn't work as they're more 'low tech' then what I was aiming for, but there's also the Gizmoteer from South America 2 that I could pull from. So at this point looking for others suggestions as to what they think would might work while not being to over powered but also not to limited either.

Thanks!


Daniel Stoker

If you're up to the challenge you could look at the Cybermancer from Nightbane Book 3: Through the Glass Darkly. They magically meld living organisms with tech in order to create items that can cast spells or have always-on active spell effects. It may be a challenge, but there could be something worth reskinning there that might be made to work for your concept.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'll dig out my Nightbane books and see what that has, I remember that being very much a Jeffrey Combs style movie character class.


Daniel Stoker

[drewkitty ~..~]

I'll dig out my Nightbane books and see what that has, I remember that being very much a Jeffrey Combs style movie character class.


Daniel Stoker

If you mean the Movie optimized KF Martial Arts Form (with a % table ranging from Mook to Hero/Star)....that is in the Mystic China book
...at least that is what hit me as what you were asking for. If not *shrugs*

[Curbludgeon]

Ooh, Regularguy, that's pretty. I forgot the Gizmoteer used a base construction skill. Adapting some of the technowizard guidelines to it might be a nice framework for an inclusive take on crafting.

It would be pretty easy to compile some new exclusive skill programs for different power-based gizmo creation, with one of the limiting factors being the character's inability to provide the oomph behind a weird gizmo themselves. While a Maker with the Metaphysical Ecology skill program can resequence avocado seeds so when planted they produce explosive fruit, or with the Eldritch Electronics skill be able to construct a lava gun, they would still need a source of P.P.E. in order to empower their creations. Having a hard requirement of external energy, combined with constraints on difficulty in construction, cost, and maintenance time, seems like a useful way to limit the class. Pegging item availablity to internal values, such as seen in Psi-Mechanics, leads to both an extra layer of accounting and a tinker character having metagame limits on being able to sell their wares.

[Daniel Stoker]

If you mean the Movie optimized KF Martial Arts Form (with a % table ranging from Mook to Hero/Star)....that is in the Mystic China book
...at least that is what hit me as what you were asking for. If not *shrugs*

Noooo my reply was in regards to the cybermancer and how what I remember of the class makes me think of something you'd see in a movie starring Jeffry Combs with body horror and the like. Or now that I think of it more what you saw in the Jamie Lee Curtis movie Virus.


Daniel Stoker

[RockJock]

Daniel,

You say the gear is for mainly one character, with limited use for others. How limited is the use you want? Are you thinking to equip other characters, or let a friend/partner get off a shot or two before the power runs out?


This might sound strange, but what about using Gem Powers, or even Rifts Stone Magic if you want a more magic bent as a basis? It might be too far from a book written example, but take Gem Powers from HU, instead of taking the gem and draining them the character has to build the powers into a weapon/jewelry/armor, whatever. Perhaps it is "rechargeable", but only has so many uses/shots without going back to base.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Regularguy]

You say the gear is for mainly one character, with limited use for others. How limited is the use you want? Are you thinking to equip other characters, or let a friend/partner get off a shot or two before the power runs out?


This might sound strange, but what about using Gem Powers, or even Rifts Stone Magic if you want a more magic bent as a basis? It might be too far from a book written example, but take Gem Powers from HU, instead of taking the gem and draining them the character has to build the powers into a weapon/jewelry/armor, whatever.

Even going strictly by the book, how about playing — well, yeah, a tech guy with a PhD in his own right, sure; but the ace up his sleeve can be the Enchanted Object he’s the keeper of, and it can bestow Gem Powers: plenty of those powers carry enough psionic oomph that he can hand it to somebody and know that they’ll hand it right back to him (a) right as he hands them some gem-encrusted piece of equipment, which is to say (b) right after they’ve gotten a 24-hour dose of Can-Fire-Up-Gem-Powers.

(And the gem-studded item they get handed can, if you want, actually be something useful in its own right — just so long as it can also grant flight or invisibility or mind control or whatever.)

[Borast]

You say the gear is for mainly one character, with limited use for others. How limited is the use you want? Are you thinking to equip other characters, or let a friend/partner get off a shot or two before the power runs out?


This might sound strange, but what about using Gem Powers, or even Rifts Stone Magic if you want a more magic bent as a basis? It might be too far from a book written example, but take Gem Powers from HU, instead of taking the gem and draining them the character has to build the powers into a weapon/jewelry/armor, whatever.

Even going strictly by the book, how about playing — well, yeah, a tech guy with a PhD in his own right, sure; but the ace up his sleeve can be the Enchanted Object he’s the keeper of, and it can bestow Gem Powers: plenty of those powers carry enough psionic oomph that he can hand it to somebody and know that they’ll hand it right back to him (a) right as he hands them some gem-encrusted piece of equipment, which is to say (b) right after they’ve gotten a 24-hour dose of Can-Fire-Up-Gem-Powers.

(And the gem-studded item they get handed can, if you want, actually be something useful in its own right — just so long as it can also grant flight or invisibility or mind control or whatever.)

Hmmm...sounds like the equipment of the Chartreuse Lamp Army...An Empowered lamp recharging a powerful ring (which also has a non-sentient AI built-in). As long as the process or use of the ring/gem don't create a costume, Copyright issues shouldn't arise!

[Daniel Stoker]

Not sure that would fit but that is a VERY interesting idea... and one I might snag for the next villain I make.


Daniel Stoker

[RockJock]

Hey, we are all just trying to help with a different kind of bank shot:).

[Daniel Stoker]

Trust me, I appreciate ALL the suggestions if for nothing else then as inspiration for something else later on.


Daniel Stoker

[RockJock]

Good deal. DS, that is what I came back to the boards for, cross pollination of ideas.

[Daniel Stoker]

Daniel Stoker

[Regularguy]

A twist on an old idea: Imbued, with, say, Extraordinary Intelligence and Mechano-Link, to be a ridiculously skilled gadgeteer — and, if you want, add Gem Powers from before, to craft items that can grant temporary powers, or maybe Transmutation to just get stuff that you need — but also add Divine Aura, to get awestruck devotees who’ll unhesitatingly do whatever the boss asks.

And then give them a dose of Imbuing, to get a superpowered version of Q Branch: your character no longer has to be the guy who rigs up stuff, he has people for that; he’s automatically the head of a fully-staffed engineering consortium, where his 100% loyal underlings build terrific things whether he’s working alongside them in the lab or he’s off playing superhero or cat burglar or wealthy investor or whatever.

[RockJock]

What about the tattooed dragons and their magic elixir as a guide? All are more or less "one time" powers? Even something between Inbued and Wiz Kid with his customize nannite based minor powers?