Unlocking doors without lock picking

[Thom001]

Hey all, I was recently talking to a friend that works security and was informed during the course of the conversation that when it comes to illegal entry it is actually pretty rare to see the lock itself picked, or attacked. My friend Malcolm said most of the time they use weaknesses of the building/entry. He specifically mentioned a time when a penetration tester used a flattened piece of metal similar to a Flathead screwdriver and a wire to open the doors and a key to open the file cabinets. My question is in game how would this be handled? Would a character need to have some kind of skill related to this? Thanks.

*Edit: The flattened metal is as big as full sized screwdriver and the wire was the size of a wire coat hanger. He pushed the flattened metal between two doors through the weather stripping and pulled it toward himself. This engaged the release from the other side. He did something similar with the wire to a single door by slipping it through as well. He did not insert anything into the lock or even touch it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

"used a flattened piece of metal similar to a Flathead screwdriver and a wire to open the doors" This is a lock pick set.

[Killer Cyborg]

"used a flattened piece of metal similar to a Flathead screwdriver and a wire to open the doors" This is a lock pick set.

Depends on how they did it. If they picked the lock, they picked the lock and those are lockpicks (improvised or not).
If they jimmied the lock, that's different.

RUE 309 describes the Pick Locks skill as:
The character knows the methods and tools for picking/opening key and basic tumbler locks.

As written, this skill seems to only apply to actually picking locks, not to other methods of opening or bypassing them, which makes it very limited, arguably TOO limited.

Safecracking (RUE 321) lets one "know how to open [safes] without damaging the contents," so that's a lot more expansive.

Locksmith (RUE 312) is "the study of lock designs and the ability to repair, build, modify, and open locks,[/i] so it is likewise more expansive. It would cover non-pick techniques for opening locks.

None of these seem to cover stuff like "judging how to whack a lock to open it" or "how to kick open a door" or "how to pop a door off its hinges" or "easy ways to bypass doors when breaking and entering."

Firefighting (RUE 323) covers "a basic understanding of...firefighting techniques... and the practiced use of firefighting tools."
This could arguably cover kicking down doors, or chopping through doors (or walls) with a fire axe, and so forth.

Although it's not in RUE, there may be construction or architect skills somewhere that would officially grant the character the right expertise to bypass doors/locks without picking anything, but that kind of skill seems like overkill.

Personally, I'd handle it one of several ways:
1. Make up a "Breaking & Entering" skill that covers everything involved other than actual lock picking. Use that to expand character's abilities.
2. Just allow the Pick Locks skill to do more than it officially is capable of. (This is probably how Palladium would run it)
3. Some combination of 1 and 2.

[Captain_Nibbz]

Personally, I'd handle it one of several ways:
1. Make up a "Breaking & Entering" skill that covers everything involved other than actual lock picking. Use that to expand character's abilities.
2. Just allow the Pick Locks skill to do more than it officially is capable of. (This is probably how Palladium would run it)

Without knowing if there is a more comprehensive ability hidden in the thousands of published pages, these two options are how I would handle it.

[Warshield73]

Firefighting (RUE 323) covers "a basic understanding of...firefighting techniques... and the practiced use of firefighting tools."
This could arguably cover kicking down doors, or chopping through doors (or walls) with a fire axe, and so forth.

Personally I would say that Firefighting does allow for entry but it is more about breaking through to rescue people not so much for getting through a door.

Personally, I'd handle it one of several ways:
1. Make up a "Breaking & Entering" skill that covers everything involved other than actual lock picking. Use that to expand character's abilities.
2. Just allow the Pick Locks skill to do more than it officially is capable of. (This is probably how Palladium would run it)
3. Some combination of 1 and 2.

#2 is probably the easiest way but I have been toying around with a skill like #1 for decades but I wanted it to be broader.

I have had several players ask about what skill they use for Dynamic Entry and in a lot of cases I have just used military tactics.

I know a lot of people complain about the number of skills so I tend to just expand existing skills but for some things that players want to do you just need to add new skills.

[guardiandashi]

Firefighting (RUE 323) covers "a basic understanding of...firefighting techniques... and the practiced use of firefighting tools."
This could arguably cover kicking down doors, or chopping through doors (or walls) with a fire axe, and so forth.

Personally I would say that Firefighting does allow for entry but it is more about breaking through to rescue people not so much for getting through a door.

Personally, I'd handle it one of several ways:
1. Make up a "Breaking & Entering" skill that covers everything involved other than actual lock picking. Use that to expand character's abilities.
2. Just allow the Pick Locks skill to do more than it officially is capable of. (This is probably how Palladium would run it)
3. Some combination of 1 and 2.

#2 is probably the easiest way but I have been toying around with a skill like #1 for decades but I wanted it to be broader.

I have had several players ask about what skill they use for Dynamic Entry and in a lot of cases I have just used military tactics.

I know a lot of people complain about the number of skills so I tend to just expand existing skills but for some things that players want to do you just need to add new skills.

I would look at the mechanical skill set and note all the skills that mention bonuses to other skills ( think mechanical engineering) and some rogue skills and military may also have crossover bonuses.

with that said a bit of security/construction knowledge can give someone who is creative ways to get around the "proper" way of undoing security

[Thom001]

Thanks for the fast response everyone. I'm sorry that I didn't explain well originally. Apparently the penetration tester used a flattened piece of metal as big as a full sized screwdriver with a plastic handle on it and a piece of wire the thickness of a coat hanger. He stuck the flattened metal between in the weather stripping and pulled the item back toward himself, disengaging the door lock from the other side. With the wire he did the same to a single frame door. He never tried to insert anything into the lock, move tumblers or even engage the lock itself at all. Should this be part of the lock picking skill or be a skill at all? This kind of technique seems to be more an understanding doors work, sort of like how to change a light bulb, or change a tire. It isn't really all that detailed so much as being perceptive. What do you think?

*I will also add this description to the original post*

[Killer Cyborg]

Thanks for the fast response everyone. I'm sorry that I didn't explain well originally. Apparently the penetration tester used a flattened piece of metal as big as a full sized screwdriver with a plastic handle on it and a piece of wire the thickness of a coat hanger. He stuck the flattened metal between in the weather stripping and pulled the item back toward himself, disengaging the door lock from the other side. With the wire he did the same to a single frame door. He never tried to insert anything into the lock, move tumblers or even engage the lock itself at all. Should this be part of the lock picking skill or be a skill at all? This kind of technique seems to be more an understanding doors work, sort of like how to change a light bulb, or change a tire. It isn't really all that detailed so much as being perceptive. What do you think?

*I will also add this description to the original post*

It's not technically picking locks, but I wouldn't object to any GM allowing that kind of thing with that particular skill, especially since no other skill seems to cover it.
There was an old Burt Reynolds movie called "Breakin In." He played a safecracker who runs into a burglar when they're robbing the same house on the same night.
When he finds the wall safe, Reynolds pulls out a hammer/hatchet, chops through the wall until he can pull the safe out, then hacks/bashes his way in through the back of the safe.
Then he explains that a lot of safes put all their security up front, but there are other vulnerable points where it's pretty easy to get in.
I think this is also the movie where one of the rules of safecracking is "always try the handle first," because a lot of people don't actually LOCK their safes, just pull them closed without spinning the combination around or engaging the lock.
I imagine that breaking into doors and such have a LOT of the same kinds of tricks; ways to bypass the lock rather than actually PICK it. Separating the door from the jam is one way, or taking off the hinges, or cutting a hole in the door, or just kicking the door down.
And with padlocks, there are a lot of ways to open them without a key or a pick. Most of the cheaper ones can be opened with a hammer and/or a chisel. Most locks are mostly for show.

While none of the peripheral stuff is technically within the Pick Locks skill, I don't see why not, and I don't see any reason to believe that Palladium would care if somebody expanded the skill to include that other stuff.
The reason why that stuff should be part of SOME skill or other is because it's a kind of specific knowledge; you have to know how and when to do the different tricks, and most people don't have that kind of knowledge.

[glitterboy2098]

sounds like he used a tool that would exploit the way that most doorknob bolts are designed to be curved on one side and smoothly depress when something (like a doorframe) approaches from that end, while immovable when approached from the other end. this is how you can lock a doorknob while the door is still open, and the bolt will still move to let it close.

this isn't picking the lock, its exploiting a trait of the lock to open the door directly.

[Borast]

Other than slipping a "universal key" between the jamb and latch? (A credit card.)

Avoiding the doors by using a window? (Not everyone uses the locks on their windows, and most windows (that I've seen) don't have stops prevenmting someone from crawling in.)
Using a ladder to access upper story windows? (The upper floors of a building seem to rarely have any alarms on them even if the main floor & basement ones do!)

Seriously...a 'bomb-proof' door and biometric lock only stops an honest thief. Find a door with a 100% denial rate? Go through the wall.

[torjones]

Hey all, I was recently talking to a friend that works security and was informed during the course of the conversation that when it comes to illegal entry it is actually pretty rare to see the lock itself picked, or attacked. My friend Malcolm said most of the time they use weaknesses of the building/entry. He specifically mentioned a time when a penetration tester used a flattened piece of metal similar to a Flathead screwdriver and a wire to open the doors and a key to open the file cabinets. My question is in game how would this be handled? Would a character need to have some kind of skill related to this? Thanks.

I agree with Killer Cyborg: Lock picking is the closest skill in terms of what a pentester needs to know in order to do their thing. If you aren't going to create a "Breaking and Entering" Rogue's skill, that's the path I would take. In reality, they'd also need surveillance systems, basic electronics, basic mechanics, streetwise, seduction, and computer hacking. Given all that, I suspect it's more of an OCC than any one given skill.

If you want to scare yourself sober about just how easy it is to bypass locks, search youtube for "Deviant Olam" and "I'll let myself in." Fortunately, in several of Deviant's other videos he also talks about how to prevent his tricks from working. A lot of the time, his fixes would cost less than $5 per door. (A box of 3" wood screws to replace the screws in your exterior doors is one such example)

[Thom001]

Thank you guys. Once again the speed of response is amazing. But after reading I am considering creating such a skill and starting the base similar to what it would be for either lock-picking or streetwise. I also think it should be categorized the same as streetwise. I also am going to search for Deviant Olam. Thanks.

[Shark_Force]

lockpicking lawyer is also a good youtuber to look into for bypassing various locks. he does, of course, cover a lot of lockpicking as well, but he also does videos on bypassing electronic locks and similar.

[Voodoolaw]

Lockpicking Lawyer is legit. Deviant Ollam has great entry stuff as well and explains the difference between picking locks with picks and using bypass tools (such as the screwdriver-like tool). A lot of what locksmiths do is apparently bypassing parts of the lock and exploiting weaknesses. I would just use the locksmith and/or lock picking skills. Basic mechanics or field armorer could work for simpler stuff. Like with fire departments, I would say the later would cause some damage to the lock or door but might not be immediately obvious until directly observed. I don’t think it should require a new skill

[Library Ogre]

Given the existence of the IRMSS, it seems like there'd easily be a robot system for security things... a lock picker, for example. Give it a tiny body, a recharger/carrying case, and a skill suite.

[kaid]

Given the existence of the IRMSS, it seems like there'd easily be a robot system for security things... a lock picker, for example. Give it a tiny body, a recharger/carrying case, and a skill suite.

This was always my thought as well. If you have functional nanobots any kind of mechanical lock seems to be very vulnerable to bot picks. That said in a world with supernatural strength/psychic abilities and magic any lock is mostly there to keep out those who don't actually mean you or your belongings in the first place.

[Zer0 Kay]

Thanks for the fast response everyone. I'm sorry that I didn't explain well originally. Apparently the penetration tester used a flattened piece of metal as big as a full sized screwdriver with a plastic handle on it and a piece of wire the thickness of a coat hanger. He stuck the flattened metal between in the weather stripping and pulled the item back toward himself, disengaging the door lock from the other side. With the wire he did the same to a single frame door. He never tried to insert anything into the lock, move tumblers or even engage the lock itself at all. Should this be part of the lock picking skill or be a skill at all? This kind of technique seems to be more an understanding doors work, sort of like how to change a light bulb, or change a tire. It isn't really all that detailed so much as being perceptive. What do you think?

*I will also add this description to the original post*

It's not technically picking locks, but I wouldn't object to any GM allowing that kind of thing with that particular skill, especially since no other skill seems to cover it.
There was an old Burt Reynolds movie called "Breakin In." He played a safecracker who runs into a burglar when they're robbing the same house on the same night.
When he finds the wall safe, Reynolds pulls out a hammer/hatchet, chops through the wall until he can pull the safe out, then hacks/bashes his way in through the back of the safe.
Then he explains that a lot of safes put all their security up front, but there are other vulnerable points where it's pretty easy to get in.
I think this is also the movie where one of the rules of safecracking is "always try the handle first," because a lot of people don't actually LOCK their safes, just pull them closed without spinning the combination around or engaging the lock.
I imagine that breaking into doors and such have a LOT of the same kinds of tricks; ways to bypass the lock rather than actually PICK it. Separating the door from the jam is one way, or taking off the hinges, or cutting a hole in the door, or just kicking the door down.
And with padlocks, there are a lot of ways to open them without a key or a pick. Most of the cheaper ones can be opened with a hammer and/or a chisel. Most locks are mostly for show.

While none of the peripheral stuff is technically within the Pick Locks skill, I don't see why not, and I don't see any reason to believe that Palladium would care if somebody expanded the skill to include that other stuff.
The reason why that stuff should be part of SOME skill or other is because it's a kind of specific knowledge; you have to know how and when to do the different tricks, and most people don't have that kind of knowledge.

And like the safe... try the doorknob first.

[Library Ogre]

Given the existence of the IRMSS, it seems like there'd easily be a robot system for security things... a lock picker, for example. Give it a tiny body, a recharger/carrying case, and a skill suite.

This was always my thought as well. If you have functional nanobots any kind of mechanical lock seems to be very vulnerable to bot picks. That said in a world with supernatural strength/psychic abilities and magic any lock is mostly there to keep out those who don't actually mean you or your belongings in the first place.

"A string will bind an honest man more surely than a chain will a dishonest one."

[Orin J.]

i feel like having a borg friend with a strong armored boot would solve like....70% of your door-bypassing needs

[ITWastrel]

Despite some strangely specific wording on the pick locks skill, I've always used it as a generalized "opening things you don't have a key for" skill.

The hang-up here may have come from the mass-media induced idea that "lock-picking tools" are a set of picks and tensioners that fit inside a tiny leather wallet. Real lockpicking often includes shims, slim-jims, breaker bars, inflatable bladders, dense foam wedges, and often a drill.
I blame TV. Every door in the world is three seconds from opening to anybody with a hairpin. The lockpicking lawyer shows us, in real life you also sometimes need a stick.

[Warshield73]

i feel like having a borg friend with a strong armored boot would solve like....70% of your door-bypassing needs

My group found a Great Horned Dragon Hatchling with mystic portal solved like 75% of them and a Head Hunter with demolitions and fusion blocks solved most of the rest.

[wyrmraker]

i feel like having a borg friend with a strong armored boot would solve like....70% of your door-bypassing needs

My group found a Great Horned Dragon Hatchling with mystic portal solved like 75% of them and a Head Hunter with demolitions and fusion blocks solved most of the rest.

Ah, yes. A favorite line of Special Forces: "A wall is a door with a different sort of key."

Also, my GMs HATE when I get even mildly 'creative'. I made a GM storm off for 10 minutes by whipping out a Juicer Chainsaw to remove a door entirely.
And yes, for me this is considered 'mild'. Interestingly, I got the tactic off of a crackhead that I met some years back.

[Warshield73]

i feel like having a borg friend with a strong armored boot would solve like....70% of your door-bypassing needs

My group found a Great Horned Dragon Hatchling with mystic portal solved like 75% of them and a Head Hunter with demolitions and fusion blocks solved most of the rest.

Ah, yes. A favorite line of Special Forces: "A wall is a door with a different sort of key."

Also, my GMs HATE when I get even mildly 'creative'. I made a GM storm off for 10 minutes by whipping out a Juicer Chainsaw to remove a door entirely.
And yes, for me this is considered 'mild'. Interestingly, I got the tactic off of a crackhead that I met some years back.

When I first started GMing Rifts back in HS this was a problem for me too. It was hard to plan a good story around unpredictable players and Rifts isn't like a modern setting game where there are police issues to be concerned with that can keep players in line but you can usually put in a few consequences for truly reckless actions. After a while though it's just fun to see what they do.

[Mack]

When I first started GMing Rifts back in HS this was a problem for me too. It was hard to plan a good story around unpredictable players and Rifts isn't like a modern setting game where there are police issues to be concerned with that can keep players in line but you can usually put in a few consequences for truly reckless actions. After a while though it's just fun to see what they do.

A few years ago, someone on this forum shared the opposite story. The party was on foot and the GM put a river in their path, thinking it would be a minor obstacle. Turned out no one in the group had the right set of skills / spells / abilities to deal with it. They ended up stuck.

[Warshield73]

When I first started GMing Rifts back in HS this was a problem for me too. It was hard to plan a good story around unpredictable players and Rifts isn't like a modern setting game where there are police issues to be concerned with that can keep players in line but you can usually put in a few consequences for truly reckless actions. After a while though it's just fun to see what they do.

A few years ago, someone on this forum shared the opposite story. The party was on foot and the GM put a river in their path, thinking it would be a minor obstacle. Turned out no one in the group had the right set of skills / spells / abilities to deal with it. They ended up stuck.

I've seen a few stories like this a few times on the boards and I'm sure I've hit this block a few times but normally my players had access to tech or magic to get around it. In this case I would have just let them find a place shallow enough for a difficult crossing or meet someone who could ferry them across, for a price.

Modern games with no magic are tougher. We ran into this a lot with TMNT back in the day and even Robotech a few times, mainly in the old Invid Invasion game.

[Borast]

i feel like having a borg friend with a strong armored boot would solve like....70% of your door-bypassing needs

Had a character like that in AD&D... A half-ogre with 19 strength. He had a (bad) habit of using his mace to open doors. Stealth was NOT his strong point.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Some interesting things in this thread.

To answer the OP: yeah just let "lockpicking" cover it. We have so so so so many skills already. We don't need 14 different ones for geting through a door.

As to the rest. I can't remember the last time I had a PC with out one or more Vibro/Energy melee weapons. Picking locks is all well and good but... a vibro blade turned on and soft hum and you just cut the lock 'out' of the door. Or a Lightsab........ "Wilks Energy sword" and do the same thing.

If the door is sooooo robust that a Vibro blade doesn't work..... or a 5D6md Lighsa...... Wilks Energy Sword can't cut through it... you're not 'picking' it with some tools in your pocket either. Lol that's a blast door or something.

As more than one person up thread has pointed out. REALLY Strong door? What's the wall made of?? Oh Drywall and wood?? Did I mention my vibroblade and or Lightsab...rrrrrrrrrrrr Wilks Energy sword?

If the place is SO Well armored that a 5D6 MD Sword can't get through the door OR the wall in a few swings, then you're trying to break into, or out of a fortified military building and yeah.... other problems.

[Borast]

Some interesting things in this thread.

To answer the OP: yeah just let "lockpicking" cover it. We have so so so so many skills already. We don't need 14 different ones for geting through a door.

As to the rest. I can't remember the last time I had a PC with out one or more Vibro/Energy melee weapons. Picking locks is all well and good but... a vibro blade turned on and soft hum and you just cut the lock 'out' of the door. Or a Lightsab........ "Wilks Energy sword" and do the same thing.

If the door is sooooo robust that a Vibro blade doesn't work..... or a 5D6md Lighsa...... Wilks Energy Sword can't cut through it... you're not 'picking' it with some tools in your pocket either. Lol that's a blast door or something.

As more than one person up thread has pointed out. REALLY Strong door? What's the wall made of?? Oh Drywall and wood?? Did I mention my vibroblade and or Lightsab...rrrrrrrrrrrr Wilks Energy sword?

If the place is SO Well armored that a 5D6 MD Sword can't get through the door OR the wall in a few swings, then you're trying to break into, or out of a fortified military building and yeah.... other problems.

Soft hum? Somehow I don't think so...might not be a buzz-saw, but still.
Now...AFTER you touch something metal with it...hammer-drill in an echo chamber, I'd say!

As for your lightsa...ah...plasma sword. I expect that it will have a distinct aural effect, due to the effects of that much energy in a confined space. (Maybe a heavy hum with an occasional crackle as some atmospheric crap reacts with the energy field!)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Some interesting things in this thread.

To answer the OP: yeah just let "lockpicking" cover it. We have so so so so many skills already. We don't need 14 different ones for geting through a door.

As to the rest. I can't remember the last time I had a PC with out one or more Vibro/Energy melee weapons. Picking locks is all well and good but... a vibro blade turned on and soft hum and you just cut the lock 'out' of the door. Or a Lightsab........ "Wilks Energy sword" and do the same thing.

If the door is sooooo robust that a Vibro blade doesn't work..... or a 5D6md Lighsa...... Wilks Energy Sword can't cut through it... you're not 'picking' it with some tools in your pocket either. Lol that's a blast door or something.

As more than one person up thread has pointed out. REALLY Strong door? What's the wall made of?? Oh Drywall and wood?? Did I mention my vibroblade and or Lightsab...rrrrrrrrrrrr Wilks Energy sword?

If the place is SO Well armored that a 5D6 MD Sword can't get through the door OR the wall in a few swings, then you're trying to break into, or out of a fortified military building and yeah.... other problems.

Soft hum? Somehow I don't think so...might not be a buzz-saw, but still.
Now...AFTER you touch something metal with it...hammer-drill in an echo chamber, I'd say!

As for your lightsa...ah...plasma sword. I expect that it will have a distinct aural effect, due to the effects of that much energy in a confined space. (Maybe a heavy hum with an occasional crackle as some atmospheric crap reacts with the energy field!)

I'm not sure there's a lot of Rifts Canon on what exactly a vibro weapon sounds like, but special forces use them just fine with out any sort of buzz-saw effect. There's no actual spinning or drilling sort of action going on. As described in the books "All Vibro-Blades are blade weapons surrounded by an invisible, high-frequency energy field that gives them Mega-Damage capabilities."

As for the Wilks Laser Sword, yes there would be illumination, but.... You're going to open a door. If someone doesn't notice a 3 or 4 foot wide, 6 or 7 foot tall part of the wall moving and people coming in and out.... well. Lock picking isn't silent either. yes such weapons traditionally have a hum. You're not wrong. (Though to be fair, In universe there's no indication that a "Wilks energy sword" would be any louder than a flashlight. Laser weapons in rifts are silent.)

I guess it depends on how stealthy you need to be. You could use a wilks laser scalpel for the same thing. But again you're moving a pretty big slab of something.

[Thom001]

When I first started GMing Rifts back in HS this was a problem for me too. It was hard to plan a good story around unpredictable players and Rifts isn't like a modern setting game where there are police issues to be concerned with that can keep players in line but you can usually put in a few consequences for truly reckless actions. After a while though it's just fun to see what they do.

A few years ago, someone on this forum shared the opposite story. The party was on foot and the GM put a river in their path, thinking it would be a minor obstacle. Turned out no one in the group had the right set of skills / spells / abilities to deal with it. They ended up stuck.

While it wasn't quite that dramatic, our group had an event that derailed the GM a bit. His plan (early days of playing) was for us to get captured to progress the story forward. A well placed door slam allowed escape for some of us, which later allowed all of us to escape without ever getting to his plot.....

[Borast]

When I first started GMing Rifts back in HS this was a problem for me too. It was hard to plan a good story around unpredictable players and Rifts isn't like a modern setting game where there are police issues to be concerned with that can keep players in line but you can usually put in a few consequences for truly reckless actions. After a while though it's just fun to see what they do.

A few years ago, someone on this forum shared the opposite story. The party was on foot and the GM put a river in their path, thinking it would be a minor obstacle. Turned out no one in the group had the right set of skills / spells / abilities to deal with it. They ended up stuck.

While it wasn't quite that dramatic, our group had an event that derailed the GM a bit. His plan (early days of playing) was for us to get captured to progress the story forward. A well placed door slam allowed escape for some of us, which later allowed all of us to escape without ever getting to his plot.....

Hehe... Something happened like that in one of a friend's games. A player in a Boss Fight ran up and started interrogating the Boss, claiming to the Press, and wanting to know the gossip and facts... Derailed the entire scene, as the DM was tossed for a loop, and lost track of what was going on!