History vs. Lore skills for the Macross Saga

[green.nova343]

In the 2nd edition for the Robotech RPG, TSC has two skills I was looking at:

• Lore: Robotech Masters mentions that it provides the character with knowledge about the "culture, history, and customs" of the Robotech Masters (including the effects they & the 2nd Robotech War had on Terra).
• Lore: ZentreadI, in a similar fashion, includes knowledge about the "history, culture and customs" of the Zentraedi, including their integration into the UEEF.

The Macross Saga sourcebook provides some new skills, many of which are either more advanced versions of existing skills (i.e. Advanced Electronic Warfare is a more powerful version of Electronic Countermeasures) or are brand-new skills. But I"m confused about 2 of the "new" skills in particular:

• History: Tirolean Empire focuses on the Master's empire, including its "rise and fall", & the inner workings of its "governmental, military and economic forces".
• History: Zentraedi focuses specifically on the Zentraedi's own history, including "notable leaders, battles...and the Zentraedi's place in the Tirolean Empire".

Is there something I'm missing on these, because aside from slight differences in the descriptions they seem nearly identical. At least, for example, with ECM & Advanced EW it makes sense -- the former is a combination of the old Radio: Scramblers skill & the ability to jam & track enemy transmissions, the latter also has knowledge in ECCM (counter-ECM) measures to essentially shut down enemy jamming attempts, as well as the ability to jam optical sensors & comm systems. But for these...I'm seeing 2 sets of skills that both seem to focus a lot on the history of each faction, but not really any major difference. Am I missing something in my "advanced" age (I'll be 49 in May...)?

[ESalter]

In the 2nd edition for the Robotech RPG, TSC has two skills I was looking at:

• Lore: Robotech Masters mentions that it provides the character with knowledge about the "culture, history, and customs" of the Robotech Masters (including the effects they & the 2nd Robotech War had on Terra).
• Lore: ZentreadI, in a similar fashion, includes knowledge about the "history, culture and customs" of the Zentraedi, including their integration into the UEEF.

The Macross Saga sourcebook provides some new skills, many of which are either more advanced versions of existing skills (i.e. Advanced Electronic Warfare is a more powerful version of Electronic Countermeasures) or are brand-new skills. But I"m confused about 2 of the "new" skills in particular:

• History: Tirolean Empire focuses on the Master's empire, including its "rise and fall", & the inner workings of its "governmental, military and economic forces".
• History: Zentraedi focuses specifically on the Zentraedi's own history, including "notable leaders, battles...and the Zentraedi's place in the Tirolean Empire".

Is there something I'm missing on these, because aside from slight differences in the descriptions they seem nearly identical. At least, for example, with ECM & Advanced EW it makes sense -- the former is a combination of the old Radio: Scramblers skill & the ability to jam & track enemy transmissions, the latter also has knowledge in ECCM (counter-ECM) measures to essentially shut down enemy jamming attempts, as well as the ability to jam optical sensors & comm systems. But for these...I'm seeing 2 sets of skills that both seem to focus a lot on the history of each faction, but not really any major difference. Am I missing something in my "advanced" age (I'll be 49 in May...)?

The writing in Palladium books is lazy. Maybe the writers forgot the earlier Skills existed; maybe they didn't care enough to take the time to make the differences clear.
That said, the books seem to think the "History" Skills represent what the Zentradi themselves know? Which might mean the History Skills are better? Or worse? Not that the former makes much sense.
If you forced me to differentiate them, I'd suggest making the "Lore" Skills practical knowledge of how to deal with aliens, and the "History" Skills academic.

[glitterboy2098]

speaking as a trained historian, this is how i see it.

Lore is general knowledge stuff and includes a lot of rumor, legend, misconceptions taken as facts, etc. the term is specifically defined as "a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth."

while History is scholarship regarding the events and pertinent social, governmental, and military structures for a to the group. it is specifically defined as "the study of past events as well as the memory, discovery, collection, organization, presentation, and interpretation of information about these events."

lore for the roman empire for example would be "established by romulus, overthrew its kings to become a full fledged republic right away, grew to be an empire because of the valor of its legions, Pax Romana!, ultimately fell because they became decadent and couldn't stop the barbarians!". this is the popular narrative, its what most people know, the version people tend to tell each other.

history though would be "archeology says Rome began as a small cluster of towns, grew into a large city. the surviving records we've found say it probably had kings but appears to have lots of the republic's structure alongside, government grew over time. became an empire largely because they were better at campaign logistics than anyone else and were willing to adapt other cultures military stuff to their own use, both in terms of gear and actual allied units. Rome never fell, but the western side fractured due to a mix of economic and political crisis's in the wake of a pandemic that left the more remote parts isolated and the core bits willing to work with the goths and vandals because they could bring stability. the eastern empire was richer and more stabled and thus weathered the crisis better, though it was diminished for sometime."

etc.

the history skills are going to be more accurate in details, but the lore skills are probably going ot be more widespread outside academic circles.

[Seto Kaiba]

In the 2nd edition for the Robotech RPG, TSC has two skills I was looking at:

• Lore: Robotech Masters mentions that it provides the character with knowledge about the "culture, history, and customs" of the Robotech Masters (including the effects they & the 2nd Robotech War had on Terra).
• Lore: ZentreadI, in a similar fashion, includes knowledge about the "history, culture and customs" of the Zentraedi, including their integration into the UEEF.

The Macross Saga sourcebook provides some new skills, many of which are either more advanced versions of existing skills (i.e. Advanced Electronic Warfare is a more powerful version of Electronic Countermeasures) or are brand-new skills. But I"m confused about 2 of the "new" skills in particular:

• History: Tirolean Empire focuses on the Master's empire, including its "rise and fall", & the inner workings of its "governmental, military and economic forces".
• History: Zentraedi focuses specifically on the Zentraedi's own history, including "notable leaders, battles...and the Zentraedi's place in the Tirolean Empire".

Is there something I'm missing on these, because aside from slight differences in the descriptions they seem nearly identical.

They are almost certainly meant to be the same skills.

For flavor reasons, RPGs seem to really enjoy using the word "Lore" to refer to any kind of in-game practical knowledge or educational background on a particular subject. It's an acceptable, if slightly archaic, usage of the term from back when it meant "knowledge gained through study or experience" rather than specifically referring to less rigorous historical practices like oral histories, myths, and traditions. "Lore" in the RPG sense would apply to knowledge acquired by any means, from academic study to knowledge passively or actively acquired through immersion into a society or culture, to knowledge acquired by trial and error.

(Attempts to represent this with examples in various games have led to some interesting moments... like infamous D&D 4e "Bear Lore" meme that emerged after sample knowledge charts for checking lore skills emerged for knowledge about bears, replete with such breathtaking insights as "bears live in caves" and "bears attack with their natural weapons".)

[ShadowLogan]

In the 2nd edition for the Robotech RPG, TSC has two skills I was looking at:

• Lore: Robotech Masters mentions that it provides the character with knowledge about the "culture, history, and customs" of the Robotech Masters (including the effects they & the 2nd Robotech War had on Terra).
• Lore: ZentreadI, in a similar fashion, includes knowledge about the "history, culture and customs" of the Zentraedi, including their integration into the UEEF.

The Macross Saga sourcebook provides some new skills, many of which are either more advanced versions of existing skills (i.e. Advanced Electronic Warfare is a more powerful version of Electronic Countermeasures) or are brand-new skills. But I"m confused about 2 of the "new" skills in particular:

• History: Tirolean Empire focuses on the Master's empire, including its "rise and fall", & the inner workings of its "governmental, military and economic forces".
• History: Zentraedi focuses specifically on the Zentraedi's own history, including "notable leaders, battles...and the Zentraedi's place in the Tirolean Empire".

Is there something I'm missing on these, because aside from slight differences in the descriptions they seem nearly identical. At least, for example, with ECM & Advanced EW it makes sense -- the former is a combination of the old Radio: Scramblers skill & the ability to jam & track enemy transmissions, the latter also has knowledge in ECCM (counter-ECM) measures to essentially shut down enemy jamming attempts, as well as the ability to jam optical sensors & comm systems. But for these...I'm seeing 2 sets of skills that both seem to focus a lot on the history of each faction, but not really any major difference. Am I missing something in my "advanced" age (I'll be 49 in May...)?

I am going to use Monopoly Rules as an example here.

Lore: Monopoly Rules would include things like Free Parking (Collect Taxes if you land on it), or other what amount to house rules

History: Monopoly Rules would if you check the actual OFFICIAL rules included with the Game: Free Parking does nothing.

I think glitterboy2098 has it Lore vs History skills, there are some differences. I think it basically amounts to Lore: X has some degree of potential error even on a successful check, where History: X has a smaller potential error that would have to be justified (like a new find or gap).

[green.nova343]

Ok, thanks guys, that makes a lot more sense to me now. I'm also wondering if, on a failed roll, Lore skills are more likely for the character to think the answer is something just completely wrong (especially if they really fail badly at the roll), where a failed History roll would be more of a, "I should know who that famous general was in the Second Punic War, but I can't remember his name now...but for some reason I keep thinking of 'long pork'..."...

[glitterboy2098]

That's how I'd run it. Lore skills always give you info.. but a failure I
Means it is likely to be bad info. (Success won't always give you ideal answers.. but should give you ones close to correct)

I'd also argue that lore would include alot of the informal information that rarely makes its way into records. like for example the different hazing rituals within each division of the grand fleet, where the history skill would tell you that hazing was officially against regulations but occured anyway, with perhaps some general details on the various rituals by way of the discipline reports.
So lore would tell you that the 53rd botoru battalion hazed it's new members by having them streak down the corridors from bow to stern, avoiding the officers. While history would tell you that the 53rd had a much higher incidence of discipline reports involving troops being discovered "out of uniform"

An expert would have both skills, to get both perspectives.

Though I'd allow players to sub one for the other at a penalty during play, if knowing specific information is plot relevant.