Beta Fighter, can we do it better?

[Seto Kaiba]

So the UEEF travels all the way to Tirol, doesn't find what its looking for, and then doesn't inform Earth that their big-bad isn't where they thought it would be (we know Earth and the UEEF are in contact w/each other in 2029)?

Assuming, of course, that they arrived at Tirol swiftly and in good order (e.g. no "five year fold") and were able to quickly get to grips with the situation there, to quickly liberate the planet, and locate and debrief surviving officials who for whatever reason were privy to the Masters plans but not sufficiently so to be taken along with them.

Given that the UEEF had never seen the Invid before, it could easily have taken years to oust the Regent's occupation force from Tirol and win the trust of the locals. Never mind the amount of time it would take to interview enough of the locals to be certain that the Masters weren't simply killed in the invasion of the planet, or the odds of finding someone who actually had actionable intel about the Masters reasons for leaving or where they went. Even then, if they did spend all that time and put in the effort to find someone who could prove that the Masters had left beforehand and for where, to the UEEF the revelation that the Masters had left for another galaxy wouldn't exactly portend an invasion of Earth. "Another galaxy" is about as far outside the area of concern you can conceivably get when you're worried about an invasion of one specific planet.

The realistic takeaway the UEEF would get from such a debrief is "the Masters ****ed off to parts unknown ages ago and are unlikely to ever return". No real indication of any danger to Earth, just a note that the problem they'd been prepared to resolve by force had apparently resolved itself before they even got there, freeing them up skip straight to the diplomacy phase after fighting the Invid. The weapons the UEEF had prepared to fight the Masters worked just as well against the Invid, so there was no real cause for concern except that the Invid were way more numerous.

The Masters are in an energy crunch, but that doesn't mean the technology they can use is any less advanced.

OK, so... that's still not relevant to anything.

[ShadowLogan]

Assuming, of course, that they arrived at Tirol swiftly and in good order (e.g. no "five year fold") and were able to quickly get to grips with the situation there, to quickly liberate the planet, and locate and debrief surviving officials who for whatever reason were privy to the Masters plans but not sufficiently so to be taken along with them. [...]

No matter how you want to slice it Seto, the UEEF reporting to the UEDF: ASC that things did not go according to plan would seem to be a prudent thing to do, even if presented as a preliminary findings. And warning Earth would be in the cards based on Gloval's briefing of Lisa taking command of the SDF-2 in Ep36 ("For the time being but even as we speak Captain the Robotech Forces are speeding back to their home world for reinforcements… ").

OK, so... that's still not relevant to anything

In terms of the main topic(s) here, not really. In terms of "correcting" Infopedia style work, yes it is very relevant since the default assumption you're working from is that the other sagas are less advanced than TMS counterparts. Which as shown is not the case, then performance values/assumptions for NG/TRM technology based on the OSM would be in error (that or OSM based TMS value/assumptions are in error).

[Seto Kaiba]

No matter how you want to slice it Seto, the UEEF reporting to the UEDF: ASC that things did not go according to plan would seem to be a prudent thing to do, even if presented as a preliminary findings.

Oh, undeniably it would be the prudent thing to do... but this is the UEDF and UEEF we're talking about. Very little of what they do resembles sound military practice at the best of times, and more typically their leadership tends to have a grip on the idiot ball rivaling Gollum's lust for the One Ring.

Mind you, even if the UEEF found out right away that the Masters had run off to another galaxy and told the UEDF what they'd found out. That'd only reduce the perceived importance of briefing the UEDF about an enemy the were never expecting to face, who seemingly went tearing off in completely the wrong direction and haven't been heard from in ages. It's also perfectly possible the UEEF did try to warn the UEDF and Leonard simply buried or ignored the intel out of spite due to his own personal grievances with the UEEF brass.

And warning Earth would be in the cards based on Gloval's briefing of Lisa taking command of the SDF-2 in Ep36 ("For the time being but even as we speak Captain the Robotech Forces are speeding back to their home world for reinforcements… ").

Eh... all in all, that turned out to be baseless speculation on Gloval's part. Gloval was also basically the only competent military leader in the series. Once he died, it was all downhill from there.

OK, so... that's still not relevant to anything

In terms of the main topic(s) here, not really. In terms of "correcting" Infopedia style work, yes it is very relevant since the default assumption you're working from is that the other sagas are less advanced than TMS counterparts. Which as shown is not the case, [...]

So, there are several major problems with your reasoning here.

The biggest, or at least the most obvious, is that that argument has no more evidentiary support than your previous one. The animation didn't change, so in practical terms nothing about the depicted capabilities of the ships and mecha changed. There's no reason to presume a higher level of capability in a total absence of supporting evidence.

A close second is that your premise regarding the Masters is irrelevent even in the context you're trying to frame it in. Yes, the adaptation would necessarily make the tech level of the "Robotech Masters" marginally higher than that of the Zor in the original Southern Cross, but it's meaningless because it's all offscreen/backstory stuff that has no bearing on their depicted level of capability in the series proper. Even if they had the means to produce planet-killing weapons for the Zentradi, that doesn't mean they'd see any reason to arm their own ships the same way when the whole point of the Zentradi was to do the fighting for them. Even if they did, if they no longer have the energy reserves to actually USE that weaponry it's effectively the same as not having it. A gun with no ammunition is just an expensive and overly complex club. All the adaptation did was shift the blame for the Zor's military incompetence from them having no experience with war after rearchitecting their entire society to eliminate confict centuries ago to them having hidden behind the Zentradi for ages and suffering from a critical fuel shortage that left them able to muster only the most token effort on the battlefield.

Third, even if we accepted this premise WRT the Masters it wouldn't have any implications for the other factions and sagas because the energy crisis which figures prominently in the story of the adaptation is expressly linked to their terrible performance on the battlefield... so it doesn't matter that the equipment the UEDF and UEEF are using after the First Robotech War is less high spec because they don't need to be more powerful to face a foe that's been explicitly crippled from the outset.

Fourth, of course, is that it's only reasonable to expect the later generations to be less capable when they were developed with much more limited resources and without the support of a massive global economy.

Fifth, and lastly (for the moment), is the point I've been making repeatedly that the difference in performance is much less important than fans credit it with being because the animation presents these as fundamentally different kinds of craft than the ones in the Macross Saga. The VF-1 is designed as a multi-role strike fighter and the Destroids a mixed ground force meant for heavy defensive warfare. The ASC's mecha are primarily light units intended for patrol duty. The UEEF's are attackers meant to operate in close concert with an infantry-based invasion force. Looking at them out of their intended operational context - especially in the wrong operational context - is naturally going to be misleading. It does not matter that the UEDF/SCA and UEEF mecha are lower performance because they are fundamentally not designed to fill the same role. That's why these fan fiction embellishmenst to the correct specs of these mecha accentuate the negative... they're trying to shift the operational context of these designs to overlap in ways that are not consistent with how they're presented in the actual show. That's why removing those embellishments ultimately yields a more sensible, more consistent understanding of the design and its operational role.

To tie this back to the main topic, the Beta's issues stem mainly from it being presented as something it's not... an air-to-air fighter, when it's actually a close air support attacker with minimal AA capability. It's all because those fan fiction embellishments frame it in a very different context from its presentation in the actual animation.

[ShadowLogan]

Oh, undeniably it would be the prudent thing to do... but this is the UEDF and UEEF we're talking about. Very little of what they do resembles sound military practice at the best of times, and more typically their leadership tends to have a grip on the idiot ball rivaling Gollum's lust for the One Ring.

From the show though we know the UEEF and UEDF: ASC are in communication, that is the whole purpose of SSL in that arc from the dialogue. So they might not generally resemble sound military practices, but it does appear that in this case they are doing the sound thing in basic principle (communicating) though the details are absent.

Eh... all in all, that turned out to be baseless speculation on Gloval's part. Gloval was also basically the only competent military leader in the series. Once he died, it was all downhill from there.

Gloval's specific wording though in this scene has bugged me for years concerning the "Robotech Forces". Though for more detail this is probably best moved to its own thread since from an RPG perspective it could yield up some interesting scenarios for that particular time frame for GMs and such and not get lost in a discussion on the Beta.

So, there are several major problems with your reasoning here. [...]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. From my POV the OSM use to the extent that is done has its own set of problems based on the assumptions going in when using the OSM. It doesn't help either that the OSM use by HG does have that "cherry picked" feel to it, toss in some apparent bias toward given sagas (even by HG).

Fourth, of course, is that it's only reasonable to expect the later generations to be less capable when they were developed with much more limited resources and without the support of a massive global economy.

This though is at odds in terms of what is depicted in terms of available resources. The UEDF: ASC has a fleet of ships that out number the UEDF: RDF from 15years prior (and they fielded multiple such fleets), the UEEF/UEDF: RDF also built at least 4* ships that dwarf anything scratch built in the first decade (SDF-1 being rebuilt). If the UEDF: ASC/UEEF had a smaller resource pool, then they shouldn't have been able to build ships of that size in that quantity and still have enough to produce all those mecha.

I think another way to look at to is, how much of the pre-2011 Global Economy was present in the RFS captured in 2013, even if they only managed to get it operational at a fraction of its full capacity. Or the impact of the other RFS mentioned in AotSC having been captured by the UEEF (or the unit from the Sentinels OVA). Really it doesn't appear Earth Forces are lacking for resources post 2013 by all indications.

*SDF-3 (IINM), 3 Tokagawas (Grant's, Carpenters, and a 3rd in the background in TRM saga), a possible 5th might be the SDF-2. Even the SDF-4 (when the UEEF was cut off from Earth no less) is larger. Add in the 12+ Angel-Class Vessels the N-S missiles use (something like x4 the length of an Ikazuchi IIRC). I'll ignore the Ark-Angel-class to which is even larger. Technically the Tri-Star and Shimakazie-class are also larger (ignoring the size issue of the Garfish/Ikazuchi)

[Seto Kaiba]

From the show though we know the UEEF and UEDF: ASC are in communication, that is the whole purpose of SSL in that arc from the dialogue. So they might not generally resemble sound military practices, but it does appear that in this case they are doing the sound thing in basic principle (communicating) though the details are absent.

OK... so you've moved the goalposts again. There's communication, sure... but that doesn't mean actionable intelligence was being shared, and the existing depictions of the Sentinels arc are reasonably consistent in depicting the UEEF of knowing what they were facing before they ever left Earth to the extent of even being able to vaccinate troops against potentially problematic native microbes.

Gloval's specific wording though in this scene has bugged me for years concerning the "Robotech Forces". Though for more detail this is probably best moved to its own thread since from an RPG perspective it could yield up some interesting scenarios for that particular time frame for GMs and such and not get lost in a discussion on the Beta.

That, like so many other strange moments, is just Robotech being Robotech. Remember, this series was slapped together in an indecent rush in an ultimately unsuccessful bid to salvage a failing toy/plamodel line of Revell's named "Robotech". The incessant use of the word "Robotech" is to remind the audience what toy line the show is pushing.

As ever, the search for deeper meanings in Robotech is a midnight search in a dark cellar for a black cat that isn't there.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. From my POV the OSM use to the extent that is done has its own set of problems based on the assumptions going in when using the OSM. It doesn't help either that the OSM use by HG does have that "cherry picked" feel to it, toss in some apparent bias toward given sagas (even by HG).

You're welcome to your opinion, but it runs counter to the facts and Harmony Gold's own best practices regarding the official Robotech setting.

More importantly, the "cherrypicked feel" you ascribe to it is not a product of actual cherrypicking on Harmony Gold's part. Rather, its a result of the sloppy, inconsistent, and otherwise improper "research" practices of the (literal) fan fiction writers whose professed (but not actual) expertise regarding the source material led them being somewhat misleading about the provenance of their information. Indirectly, it can also be partly attributed to the inconsistent level of detail between official Japanese publications for the original shows... mainly with respect to Southern Cross, which offers virtual no information due to Tatsunoko's halfhearted "minimum obligations" attitude towards development of the series.

It appears inconsistent and "cherrypicked" because the authors of the fan fiction changed various details to reflect the setting of their fan fiction, as well as to spackle over the many gaps in their research. The ratio of OSM to fan-invented material varies wildly because of the narrative choices in their fan fiction and the differing levels of detail in the OSM. They tried to bring every ship and mecha's coverage up to the same level of detail that the Macross OSM's publications offered for the VF-1, which entailed escalating quantities of purely fanmade material.

That's why it's so important to ask why things are the way they are when examining Robotech. Instead of examining a work governed by authorial intent, you're essentially trying to analyze a terribly inconsistent work created by several different, mutually exclusive games of "telephone". The "message" gets progressively more distorted the more interpretations it passes through, and thus the most reliable information is that which has passed through the fewest possible interpretations. The OSM, of course, being the most reliable arbiter of fact because it has passed through zero additional interpretations by people unconnected to the animation's production.

This though is at odds in terms of what is depicted in terms of available resources. The UEDF: ASC has a fleet of ships that out number the UEDF: RDF from 15years prior (and they fielded multiple such fleets), [...]

Do they really? We've never had official fleet numbers for the ASC... and the only fleet numbers for the RDF are the OSM ones. (Though due to a dialog error in which "ARMD-01" is misidentified as "ARMD-10", the "RDF" should theoretically have two more ships than its OSM counterpart.)

This sounds like an assumption without evidence, and even with it you miss the context that the "RDF" had about 1/2 the time to build its ships, they had to invent or reverse-engineer the technology to do it at the same time, and didn't have access to a factory satellite to help them do it quickly.

the UEEF/UEDF: RDF also built at least 4* ships that dwarf anything scratch built in the first decade (SDF-1 being rebuilt).

Only if you accept the incorrect/fanmade size of those ships. Animation-accurate scaling reduces this supposed accomplishment considerably.

When you boil out the exaggerations and outright fabrications, the scale of things is a lot smaller than you expect.

[ShadowLogan]

OK... so you've moved the goalposts again. There's communication, sure... but that doesn't mean actionable intelligence was being shared, and the existing depictions of the Sentinels arc are reasonably consistent in depicting the UEEF of knowing what they were facing before they ever left Earth to the extent of even being able to vaccinate troops against potentially problematic native microbes.

I did not move the goalpost. What the TRM arc shows is that the UEEF and ASC are in communication with each other. What those communications consist of we don't know, but it functions as a counter to the idea the the UEEF would arrive at Tirol and not report back what they found because the two factions don't communicate regularly. It also potentially puts the requirement for Tirol's arrival as post 2029-30 given the goals of the Pioneer Mission do not appear to have been accomplished as it was still ongoing (that's always an issue with Prequels or Prequel-esque material like Sentinels, the chance to muckup something.)

That, like so many other strange moments, is just Robotech being Robotech. Remember, this series was slapped together in an indecent rush in an ultimately unsuccessful bid to salvage a failing toy/plamodel line of Revell's named "Robotech". The incessant use of the word "Robotech" is to remind the audience what toy line the show is pushing.

I'm aware of the production history, but I don't buy the marketing aspect given it really isn't used elsewhere. As I said though this is better moved elsewhere.

Do they really? We've never had official fleet numbers for the ASC... and the only fleet numbers for the RDF are the OSM ones. (Though due to a dialog error in which "ARMD-01" is misidentified as "ARMD-10", the "RDF" should theoretically have two more ships than its OSM counterpart.)

We can count on screen can't we? While not hard numbers, they can establish a low end minimum. There are at least two pan shots with ships that equal or exceed the highest number of ARMD's identified on screen (#10, dialogue flub it maybe), and that was one fleet, the ASC sent out several, plus one returned from deep space (not Carpenter), and due to production reuse might have another one destroyed by the Masters as we see the remains in TMS (though dialogue may suggest otherwise).

And yes the ASC/UEEF had more time to build to this level and wasn't rebuilding the SDF-1 (along with other things), but it isn't like they don't have their own side efforts. Even if we take the TMS period and double or triple for allowed time, the UEEF/ASC would still end up with more ships, and a percentage of the available types have Space Fold Drives (salvaged they maybe) that the TMS ships lack making them even more resource intensive to build.

Only if you accept the incorrect/fanmade size of those ships. Animation-accurate scaling reduces this supposed accomplishment considerably.

That doesn't fix the SDF-3-class or the Shimmakazie-class, both being RT "originals".

The Tokagawas ram a ship that per dialogue is 5miles long (on some axis), and are quite visible sticking out the City Ship's topside from the angled shot from below before it detonates, but did not punch through to the other side, for that to happen the Tok has to be big. Now the Infopedia size isn't quite 5miles on its largest axis (7.26km, vs required 8km, but there could be wiggle room as I forget the exact quote).

The Angel-Class vessels with the N-S warheads use an Ikazuchi escort, which puts it at between 3-4x its length on screen (even in Lineart). Even at the smaller OSM size (~300m IIRC, RT size is x2 that) that means a vessel 900-1200m long (w/warhead), still bigger than an ARMD's 430m. There where over a dozen of these built and can be seen (between TSC @SSL and Ep84-5/TSC @Earth), this doesn't count the N-S test or any potential losses during the failed "colonization" effort (AotSC).

That's why it's so important to ask why things are the way they are when examining Robotech. Instead of examining a work governed by authorial intent, you're essentially trying to analyze a terribly inconsistent work created by several different, mutually exclusive games of "telephone". The "message" gets progressively more distorted the more interpretations it passes through, and thus the most reliable information is that which has passed through the fewest possible interpretations. The OSM, of course, being the most reliable arbiter of fact because it has passed through zero additional interpretations by people unconnected to the animation's production.

Pointing to the OSM though is not examining why things are in RT though, its examining why they are in the OSM shoehorning them to fit Robotech even if it would contradict the show (directly or by implication*). It also fails to allow RT to define stuff in its story on its own terms, especially when people claim something should be X due to the OSM which might have its own reasons for said limitations that may not apply to RT due to story cues or because it makes sense to (or even not to make sense like the Beta's split chest launcher setup as it hampers the offensive punch contribution of the Beta when connected w/Alpha). Then there is the disparity between details for a given saga, and that the OSM version doesn't even use the same fuel as the RT version (in some cases) and the difference in fuel doesn't appear to be accounted for**.

In the OSM the Legoiss/TLEAD are optimized for close air-support role, but that really doesn't have to be the case in RT given the Fighter Mode could be optimized for air-air capability while the G/B modes are optimized for the air-support role. Even the Beta's design doesn't necessarily mean air-support role, the use of 3 forward guns might be to increase the hit probability against highly agile targets (we know Invid Mecha are agile, and it was a common practice in WWII less so now in the age of missiles), and the side-ejection of bombs might not be ideal in terms of accuracy either. Both mecha also primarily use their missiles to target airborne Invid mecha, and they carry a lot of them (more than stock VF-1 is shown to in RT) suggesting air-air combat was a heavy factor in its loadout. Even the apparent aerodynamics don't necessarily mean they are air-support craft, they could be coincidence due to other requirements (linkup, allotted deck space, etc).

*The Logan's robotic mode is directly identified as a "Guardian Mode", contradicting the OSM/Infopedia or even the effectiveness of its weapons (when it is shown to hit, outside of plot characters like Zor they go down). Implications are from NG saga that the SC did use PC fuel (team was pushing around a cart of the stuff in Denver, abandoned before the Invid Invasion so where did it come from). The use of the Alpha's head launchers is directly seen in the show (its jet lasers are in the end credits, though was cut in the actual episode it occurs go figure), but would have to be canned for OSM purism. Even the Sylphid is based on 3x direct dialogue statements implying it is a VF, now given apparent HG bias against that arc they chose to ignore the possibilities presented by the dialogue in favor of OSM purism (I would also suspect some legal aspects are involved here). You have the VF-1 getting fusion engines in RT, which isn't necessary per say even given the dialogue (you'd have to give a reason why a Reflex/PC-power source can't stand in for a nuclear reactor in the design). The implications of the Shadow Alpha's Recon Flight in TSC that even a low ball estimate on the propulsive range would give the unit Earth-STTO capabilities, but is ignored for OSM purism even though said capability would make sense (allowing for mission aborts/retreats, something the OSM might not have the technology to allow for but RT does if they leveraged the right technology).

**to use a simple comparison based on rocket propellants. Lets say we have a Hydrogen Peroxide fueled engine (mono propellant), its efficiency is going to relate to purity of the fuel (there is like a 40% spread between 100% pure and 75% purity in terms of exhaust velocity, which is directly calculatable as Isp). If all the calculation we take assume 75% purity (OSM) and we convert it to something with more kick like 98% pure instead there is going to be a difference in performance. Performance the OSM doesn't take into consideration or have a reason to take into consideration since the energy density of PC > HBT (HBT used in chemical fuel cells will have less specific energy than if that same fuel was used in a nuclear reaction, which PC is compared to) and PC wasn't a factor.

[xunk16]

Even the Sylphid is based on 3x direct dialogue statements implying it is a VF, now given apparent HG bias against that arc they chose to ignore the possibilities presented by the dialogue in favor of OSM purism (I would also suspect some legal aspects are involved here).

Most probable, since the transforming sylphid will be officially introduced by Strange Machine Game second book, Homefront. Or at least, it does make an appearance in their text only prototype that can be downloaded by the kickstarter page. They do precise that this document will still need HG's approval though...
They also restore much of the missing canon concerning the malcontent era and master saga. While not perfect, I think this attitude toward the Sylphid does argue in your direction for how to interpret what can and cannot be done for Robotech, instead of going at it with only OSM, which remains "work in progress only" for the Americanized bastard.

[Seto Kaiba]

I did not move the goalpost. What the TRM arc shows is that the UEEF and ASC are in communication with each other.

But your previous assertion was that they would be sharing intelligence... that the UEEF would necessarily provide the SCA with intelligence on the Masters and Invid.

There's some Vulcans in Bozeman wondering about those goalposts breaking the warp barrier...

I'm aware of the production history, but I don't buy the marketing aspect given it really isn't used elsewhere. As I said though this is better moved elsewhere.

... they spam the word "robotech" in the series like nobody's business. It really doesn't merit any consideration. As I've said, you're looking for meaning where none exists.

We can count on screen can't we?

Given how suspect some of the math you've voiced your support for is... do you really want me to answer that?

While not hard numbers, they can establish a low end minimum. There are at least two pan shots with ships that equal or exceed the highest number of ARMD's identified on screen (#10, dialogue flub it maybe), and that was one fleet, the ASC sent out several, plus one returned from deep space (not Carpenter), and due to production reuse might have another one destroyed by the Masters as we see the remains in TMS (though dialogue may suggest otherwise).

The most I can recall seeing onscreen in one shot is ten, in Southern Cross's 21st episode... most "fleet" shots have no more than five ships.

If the "RDF" has the same fleet composition as the OSM UN Spacy did, that's 136 ships... 138 because of the aforementioned dialog error in the Robotech version.

That doesn't fix the SDF-3-class or the Shimmakazie-class, both being RT "originals". [...]

... actually it kinda does, because the Shimakaze-class and RTSC refit version of the SDF-3 has exterior design features of known size shared with ships with known (incorrect) size. Meaning we can correct for the scaling inaccuracy against them as well. The size-corrected SDF-3 is only about 550m long, which roughly matches the proportions of the CG model used in RTSC.

Pointing to the OSM though is not examining why things are in RT though, its examining why they are in the OSM shoehorning them to fit Robotech even if it would contradict the show (directly or by implication*). [...]

For the most part, the "contradictions" you're angsting about are distinction without difference... whether you call the exotic fuel source "HBT" or "protoculture cells" makes no actual difference to how it's depicted in the animation. Your other defenses have similarly obvious flaws like failing to account for main character Plot Armor on Marie's Logan, whereas the Logan in general is indicated in OSM and Robotech alike to be pretty ineffectual in combat under normal circumstances... or simply failing to acknowledge "artistic license" inaccuracies like RTSC depicting Earth's moon as being a lot closer to Earth than it is in reality.

That this thread exists at all is an ironclad demonstration that the methodology you're advocating for does not work. If you try to whip up "original" explanations that don't align with how the designs were conceived and presented in the animation, all you've done is create unnecessary plot holes and inconsistencies. We have an entire thread devoted to the idea that the Beta is deficient in various ways because the fan fiction stats misrepresent almost everything about it. Likewise, we've had many discussions about the Alpha being deficient in various ways compared to its supposed predecessor - with Robotech licensees even taking shots at it - which is also driven by misconceptions about its role in the fan fiction written stats that don't align with its presentation in the animation. The plain, simple, honest truth of the matter is that when you remove that fan fiction material and adhere closely to the OSM you get stats that are much more consistent with the animation, a reduction in the perceived design flaws, and you close a number of problematic plot holes in the Robotech version in the process. At the end of the day, it's demonstrably the better solution in terms of having consistent, accurate, internally logical information.

Harmony Gold has been very clear that it considers the OSM a top-tier resource to the extent of favoring it over Robotech's own dialog in the event of a contradiction. Even you have cited that fact so I presume you don't deny that is factual. With that in mind, you just aren't presenting a cogent argument here. Your argument is based not on what can be demonstrated to be true in an objective sense, but rather on what you want to be true based on your desire to see Robotech as somehow wholly separate from the original three shows that make up 99% of its content.

[Seto Kaiba]

While not perfect, I think this attitude toward the Sylphid does argue in your direction for how to interpret what can and cannot be done for Robotech, instead of going at it with only OSM, which remains "work in progress only" for the Americanized bastard.

Not really, no. The reason that Strange Machine's RPG is referencing disowned or discredited material and fan theories is because Harmony Gold is not policing its content for consistency or accuracy to the official Robotech setting the way they were when Palladium Books was making its "2nd Edition" Robotech game. Animated Robotech died with Shadow Chronicles, for the most part, so Harmony Gold is no longer trying to manage the franchise like it's a potentially-viable anime property. Licensees aren't being held to the same stringent standards that they were when HG was serious about reviving the Robotech brand. With Big West now in the driver's seat, this last round of licensing really has the feel of an actual Last Round before the lights go out.

(Essentially, as I said to ShadowLogan, it's an approach that only works if you don't care about quality or consistency.)

[ShadowLogan]

They also restore much of the missing canon concerning the malcontent era and master saga. While not perfect, I think this attitude toward the Sylphid does argue in your direction for how to interpret what can and cannot be done for Robotech, instead of going at it with only OSM, which remains "work in progress only" for the Americanized bastard.

I think the reason HG ultimately went with the nt-route though is more do with legal than OSM:
1st. You have the legal rights to consider just what they can do with material from a given saga and what happens should those rights expire to the design if you modify it like this (last time it came up IIRC was close to expiration).
2nd. You have the mechanical design aspect to consider. While fans have worked out transformations, HG may not be able to use/look at it without the equivalent of PB's "unsolicited manuscript agreement" in play, at least going by other industries.

As for why other RPG line is going with it. As Seto said, it likely comes from the loosening of the reigns because HG doesn't really care at this point. They might also have to change to in the final product.

But your previous assertion was that they would be sharing intelligence... that the UEEF would necessarily provide the SCA with intelligence on the Masters and Invid.

What SSL in TRM shows is that that a communication link between them exists which allows a frame work to share intelligence in the timeframe being considered.

The most I can recall seeing onscreen in one shot is ten, in Southern Cross's 21st episode... most "fleet" shots have no more than five ships.

If the "RDF" has the same fleet composition as the OSM UN Spacy did, that's 136 ships... 138 because of the aforementioned dialog error in the Robotech version.

I think the typical "fleet" shots are more like 7, but some of those ships are only partly visible. Color schemes don't help in this regard for TRM.

Off hand I can't tell you the episode. Check Robotech Research's picture Archive, Southern Cross saga under ASC Destroyer Banshee (#36). That has 15 ships easily in one shot.

... actually it kinda does, because the Shimakaze-class and RTSC refit version of the SDF-3 has exterior design features of known size shared with ships with known (incorrect) size. Meaning we can correct for the scaling inaccuracy against them as well. The size-corrected SDF-3 is only about 550m long, which roughly matches the proportions of the CG model used in RTSC.

Doesn't work though. The SDF-3 pre-Refit was to be a "clone" of the SDF-1 (pre-Earth), which means it has to be closer to 1.6km, even after the shadow slimdown refit. While the Shim & SDF-3 might share design features, said features do not have to be at the same scale as the ships they are derived from (internally).

That this thread exists at all is an ironclad demonstration that the methodology you're advocating for does not work.

Actually it exists because of the methodology of including the OSM to the extent it has been. If the "fanfiction" had done it right as you said, we wouldn't have this discussion, even if they had changed its roles from the OSM unless someone came in and wanted to make it adhere to the OSM. AFAIK no one has attempted to create a RT free of OSM data (aside from dimensions), and it was those "fanfictions" writers who put the notion of using the OSM in HG's head in the first place.

I'm done with this line of discussion. Its just us going back and forth in circles.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think the reason HG ultimately went with the nt-route though is more do with legal than OSM: [...]

Based on what we know of the legal situation, almost certainly not.

There would be potential legal issues if Harmony Gold were to adopt the fanart transformation for the Sylphid we're all familiar with... but mainly because the fanart in question is heavily derivative of the Macross VF-1 Valkyrie transformation. As long as they either didn't adopt a design or adopted an original design, they would be completely in the clear.

Harmony Gold's own stated reason for having decreed that the Sylphid is a non-transformable conventional fighter in Robotech's official setting is that it's a non-transformable fighter in the show's animation. Their view is that the obvious dialog error misidentifying a non-transformable fighter as a "veritech" is just that: an obvious dialog error.

As for why other RPG line is going with it. As Seto said, it likely comes from the loosening of the reigns because HG doesn't really care at this point. They might also have to change to in the final product.

Yup... this is also why some of the Kickstarter's reward tiers contain disclaimers like "subject to approval".

What SSL in TRM shows is that that a communication link between them exists which allows a frame work to share intelligence in the timeframe being considered.

OK, but that doesn't do anything for your earlier argument so I'm at a bit of a loss to see how it's supposed to be relevant.

I think the typical "fleet" shots are more like 7, but some of those ships are only partly visible. Color schemes don't help in this regard for TRM.

Off hand I can't tell you the episode. Check Robotech Research's picture Archive, Southern Cross saga under ASC Destroyer Banshee (#36). That has 15 ships easily in one shot.

Y'know what, I'm not even gonna question it... because even if we combined all of the ships in those different episodes we're not really exceeding the count the RDF would have via OSM numbers, so the point's rather moot and really neither side of it is particularly relevant.

Doesn't work though. The SDF-3 pre-Refit was to be a "clone" of the SDF-1 (pre-Earth), which means it has to be closer to 1.6km, even after the shadow slimdown refit. [...]

It actually does work. You've forgotten one very important detail: we've never actually seen the true form of the "pre-refit" SDF-3.

The "big red turd" that we all remember from Robotech II: the Sentinels is explicitly a substantial façade built up around the hull of the SDF-3 to give it the appearance of a Zentradi warship so it could approach Tirol unchallenged. There's no actual reason that the ship inside the façade would have to be the same size as the façade itself, as the only parts of the true ship exposed are the main bridge and at least part of the engine nozzles at the rear. It it were mostly hollow, and the SDF-3 were the size its shared design features say it should be, it would go quite a ways towards explaining how the SDF-3 could have appeared to have been blasted in half by Edwards while actually sustaining so little damage that it could be returned to frontline service without the façade within a year.

Actually it exists because of the methodology of including the OSM to the extent it has been. If the "fanfiction" had done it right as you said, we wouldn't have this discussion, even if they had changed its roles from the OSM unless someone came in and wanted to make it adhere to the OSM.

You keep inching closer to acknowledging openly that you know your proposed methodology doesn't work.

You're right for the wrong reason when you assert that this thread exists because the extent to which the lax and lacking research practices of the fan fiction authors who provided their information to Harmony Gold utilized the OSM. You're right, in that it does technically involve the extent to which they utilized OSM information. But the reason this discussion exists is that they deviated from what was actually represented in the animation in highly noticeable ways that created plot holes and major inconsistencies. That, in turn, fostered the fan perception that the TLEAD/Beta had major design defects because those fan fiction-laced stats misrepresent the mecha's actual capabilities and operational context in the animation itself. When you remove that demonstrably incorrect fan fiction and examine the mecha's actual capabilities and intended operational context, it's suddenly a lot more internally consistent and reasonable. People were in this topic discussing the deficiencies in the Beta design and concept as represented in those fanfic stats well before the OSM was brought up.

AFAIK no one has attempted to create a RT free of OSM data (aside from dimensions), and it was those "fanfictions" writers who put the notion of using the OSM in HG's head in the first place.

Why would they? Robotech is not an original series, it is a loose adaptation and amalgamation of three pre-existing shows with no original animation.

Logically speaking, if your goal is - as Harmony Gold's was - to take a property like that and develop an internally-consistent official setting as part of an effort to reinvent it as a professionally managed mainstream TV anime franchise, your go-to for maximum consistency with the animation is going to be the material used to create the animation in the first place.

You've also got a bit backwards... Harmony Gold wanted information based on the production materials. Those fan fiction writers were (wrongly) reputed to have expert knowledge of it, and they used material from their fan fiction to cover up the the substantial gaps in their knowledge. In addition to their intentional distortions, that also introduced a number of accidental errors caused by their own misunderstandings of the material they did have.

I'm done with this line of discussion. Its just us going back and forth in circles.

So you keep saying... but you keep coming back, and you keep increasingly acknowledging that Harmony Gold has a sound, logical reason for favoring the OSM.

[ShadowLogan]

There would be potential legal issues if Harmony Gold were to adopt the fanart transformation for the Sylphid we're all familiar with... but mainly because the fanart in question is heavily derivative of the Macross VF-1 Valkyrie transformation. As long as they either didn't adopt a design or adopted an original design, they would be completely in the clear.

HG can't really look at the fanart transformation though without the equivalent of Palladium's "Unsolicited Manuscript" agreement in play (IIRC any fan-fiction/art submitted to them falls under this heading when RT.com was accepting them, off-hand I don't know if any Sylphid-VT fanart made it into that pile). Doing so, even before considering the VF-1 aspect, would still be problematic without it is my understanding as that is how toy companies work, that is how publishing works, and other media.

OK, but that doesn't do anything for your earlier argument so I'm at a bit of a loss to see how it's supposed to be relevant.

Actually it does. If the main argument against it comes down to communication, then if the ASC/UEEF can be shown to be in communication it supports the argument.

It actually does work. You've forgotten one very important detail: we've never actually seen the true form of the "pre-refit" SDF-3.

I haven't forgotten that, but given the size comparison chart at RT.com illustrates two things:
1. the 2044 refit is 1.24km in length vs the 1.721km length with the exoskeletal hull
2. rear of the twin boom cannons on either version, the ship lines are pretty close match indicating the exo-hull was more form fitting than you assume in the rear section. If it's so form fitting in the rear it may be the same in the front since we don't know if the Syncro-Cannon replacements are 1:1 size to the original destroyed Reflex Cannons.

We also know from Prelude that it was Kabarrans who made it possible to rebuild it in that time frame. We don't know if the Kabarran restoration was to original size (minus the exo-hull) or not. For all we know they rebuilt the ship around the remaining section(s) and didn't try to restore the lost area(s).

You keep inching closer to acknowledging openly that you know your proposed methodology doesn't work

Not really. My viewpoint for the past 19 or so years has been that the OSMisfication of RT = Bad, it really hasn't changed. Using the OSM to fill in RT's details only makes sense for dimensions (since that is what it would have been drawn at), beyond that it really doesn't and boarders on (if not is outright) plagiarism.

Why would they? Robotech is not an original series, it is a loose adaptation and amalgamation of three pre-existing shows with no original animation.

How about better technical continuity and uniform background details for starters.

So you keep saying... but you keep coming back, and you keep increasingly acknowledging that Harmony Gold has a sound, logical reason for favoring the OSM.

Not exactly. I have been done with some of the tangents we've gone on, not the thread overall because we can't agree on aspects of what is being discussed.

[Seto Kaiba]

HG can't really look at the fanart transformation though without the equivalent of Palladium's "Unsolicited Manuscript" agreement in play (IIRC any fan-fiction/art submitted to them falls under this heading when RT.com was accepting them, off-hand I don't know if any Sylphid-VT fanart made it into that pile).

Back when Harmony Gold accepted fan art submissions on the official website, they worked around that problem by having users consent to a submission agreement/license that granted Harmony Gold all rights to submitted fanworks. IIRC, the original reason for setting it up like that was they were planning to do a Robotech Art 2-esque fanart/fanfic collection every so often but the idea never really gained the necessary traction because the quality of submissions was a lot lower than expected.

I haven't forgotten that, but given the size comparison chart at RT.com illustrates two things:
1. the 2044 refit is 1.24km in length vs the 1.721km length with the exoskeletal hull

Only if you assume that the listed size there is correct... which it isn't, based on the CG models used in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

DR Movie's CG models were built using the original Artmic animation model sheets as reference, and by accident or design they modeled them at or very near their OSM sizes. It can be demonstrated via the animation that the Ikazuchi-type seen in the "movie" is approximately 300m long, not 700+. Using the shared, external design features that provided the key to sizing the Ikazuchi, the SDF-3 is only about 550 scale meters in length in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles itself.

2. rear of the twin boom cannons on either version, the ship lines are pretty close match indicating the exo-hull was more form fitting than you assume in the rear section. If it's so form fitting in the rear it may be the same in the front since we don't know if the Syncro-Cannon replacements are 1:1 size to the original destroyed Reflex Cannons.

But that assumption is based on the demonstrably faulty claims of its physical dimensions as per the above... so it doesn't actually follow.

Not really. My viewpoint for the past 19 or so years has been that the OSMisfication of RT = Bad, it really hasn't changed. Using the OSM to fill in RT's details only makes sense for dimensions (since that is what it would have been drawn at), beyond that it really doesn't and boarders on (if not is outright) plagiarism.

Nah, you've explicitly started acknowledging in your previous replies that the problem stems from inconsistent application of the OSM... rather than merely its application.

As far as the validity of applying the OSM, there's literally no reason not to. Robotech is an adaptation of three existing TV anime series that was produced without any real cohesive direction and its deviations from the stories of the original works were kept as minimal as could be achieved in order to string them together. At no point did anyone working on it set out to totally reinvent the three original shows from the ground up. Moreover, nothing in the series itself actually justifies deviating from the OSM specs. They didn't make new animation and they didn't change the existing animation unless it was absolutely necessary (rotoscoping out Glorie's extra moons). Nothing about what's in the series itself materially changes anything about the presentation of the ships or mecha. All that is actually required are some minor terminology changes that fall under the category of "distinction without difference" like calling it a "Veritech" instead of an "Armo-Fighter" or "Valkyrie" or referring to a exotic fuel as "protoculture" instead of "HBT".

Ironically, there are even moments where it can be demonstrated that the Robotech version directly supports the OSM specs... even in the Masters Saga, the saga with the least OSM behind it.[sup]1[/sup]

How about better technical continuity and uniform background details for starters.

That very much depends on how you define "better".

Harmony Gold's definition of "better" relied on consistency with the actual TV series. They wanted the stats to actually reflect what's shown in the animation rather than introducing more plot holes than the series already had for no reason. They also acknowledge the reality that "newer" does not inherently mean "better", especially if two things are not actually designed to do the same job. Wanting to make the designs from the later sagas arbitrarily superior is just fallacious reasoning.

Uniform background details were never going to be possible because this is three totally unrelated shows hastily edited together with little-to-no forethought. Trying to create that consistency artificially just creates plot holes instead.

Not exactly. I have been done with some of the tangents we've gone on, not the thread overall because we can't agree on aspects of what is being discussed.

It would be helpful if you supported your arguments with evidence... we're at an impasse because you're arguing against evidence without evidence.



1. On multiple occasions in Ep44, Dana refers to weapons on her Spartas correctly as the laser weapons they were in the OSM... rather than the particle beam weapons the RT specs claim.

[ShadowLogan]

Back when Harmony Gold accepted fan art submissions on the official website, they worked around that problem by having users consent to a submission agreement/license that granted Harmony Gold all rights to submitted fanworks. IIRC, the original reason for setting it up like that was they were planning to do a Robotech Art 2-esque fanart/fanfic collection every so often but the idea never really gained the necessary traction because the quality of submissions was a lot lower than expected.

Right, but the Fanart in question might be off-limits to them without getting said permission (IIRC it was a commission piece to, possibly complicating things farther). HG just can't use any fanart image after all, they need to show they have the rights.

Only if you assume that the listed size there is correct... which it isn't, based on the CG models used in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

Even in CG though we can still have things like animation errors. I'd also point out those "incorrect" sizes are still the official sizes for RT.

Taking a look at the Lineart for the SDF-3ESH from Sentinels (specifically the rear propulsion nozzles), for the bare SDF-3 pre-Refit you would either have to give the ESH its own propulsion system (in the rear) OR readjust the size of the SDF-3ESH OR use the official size of the SDF-3 refit as is in the Size Comparison Chart. You can't just change the size of the SDF-3 without it impacting the ESH, especially given we don't know how it works (how much functionality does it have).

Nah, you've explicitly started acknowledging in your previous replies that the problem stems from inconsistent application of the OSM... rather than merely its application.

That the OSM is applied in an inconsistent manner IMHO is a point in favor of not bothering with the OSM. You can't apply the OSM in a consistent manner across all 3 Sagas, even if it didn't smack of Plagiarism. Yes I know the visual cues are shared, but that doesn't mean they have the same performance values.

That very much depends on how you define "better".

Doing so while it might create plot holes though is not a guarantee though and would still adhere to the TV series (possibly better than with the OSM from a RT story perspective) and it isn't like those plot holes don't exist w/n the story itself. And yes this requires HG to actually put in some effort, but that itself might be a good thing in the long run for the brand.

[Seto Kaiba]

Right, but the Fanart in question might be off-limits to them without getting said permission (IIRC it was a commission piece to, possibly complicating things farther). HG just can't use any fanart image after all, they need to show they have the rights.

Eh... if it came to them via their fan art section, then they already have said permission. Their stated reasons for not using it are a matter of record.

Even in CG though we can still have things like animation errors. I'd also point out those "incorrect" sizes are still the official sizes for RT.

True, though it demonstrates fairly easily that basically nobody is taking the official Robotech stats seriously. Even new Robotech productions don't use them. Yeah, they're supposedly the official sizes for Robotech, but they're arbitrary assertions with no basis in the actual show like so many other problematic and demonstrably false claims in the "official" stats.

Taking a look at the Lineart for the SDF-3ESH from Sentinels (specifically the rear propulsion nozzles), for the bare SDF-3 pre-Refit you would either have to give the ESH its own propulsion system (in the rear) OR readjust the size of the SDF-3ESH OR use the official size of the SDF-3 refit as is in the Size Comparison Chart. You can't just change the size of the SDF-3 without it impacting the ESH, especially given we don't know how it works (how much functionality does it have).

All things considered, readjusting the size of the façade is the most logical/sensible answer since we can demonstrate the post-refit version is only about 1/3 the size claimed in the size comparison.

That the OSM is applied in an inconsistent manner IMHO is a point in favor of not bothering with the OSM. You can't apply the OSM in a consistent manner across all 3 Sagas, even if it didn't smack of Plagiarism. Yes I know the visual cues are shared, but that doesn't mean they have the same performance values.

The OSM can actually be applied in a consistent manner across all three sagas... the only real problem is that the Southern Cross material is simply so lacking in detail that you can't really provide the same level of detail in stats as the other two sagas.

As far as it "smacking of plagiarism", the overwhelming majority of anime hobbyists and most Robotech fans tend to take the opposite view that disingenuously trying to present Robotech as somehow a wholly or even mostly separate entity from the shows used to make it veers dangerously into memetic "original character - do not steal" territory.

Doing so while it might create plot holes though is not a guarantee though and would still adhere to the TV series (possibly better than with the OSM from a RT story perspective) and it isn't like those plot holes don't exist w/n the story itself. And yes this requires HG to actually put in some effort, but that itself might be a good thing in the long run for the brand.

We've already seen from this very thread that attempts to reframe the mecha in a manner inconsistent with the actual animation creates plot holes and inconsistencies beyond what were already in the TV series. You're not going to get more consistent with the animation than the OSM can, so any attempt to concoct an all-original technical setting is simply going to result in a less-consistent product than the already problematic stats we currently have.

[ShadowLogan]

Eh... if it came to them via their fan art section, then they already have said permission. Their stated reasons for not using it are a matter of record.

That is the $1,000,000 question though. Does HG have the rights to said fan art? AFAIK I don't recall ever seeing a Sylphid VT in the Fanart section (though I have to admit it could have been in waiting and I'm not a prolific viewer of that part of the old RT.com so it could have been), I recall a Conbat one (which IIRC looks to be the basis for the RRT VF-4 "transformation").

All things considered, readjusting the size of the façade is the most logical/sensible answer since we can demonstrate the post-refit version is only about 1/3 the size claimed in the size comparison.

It depends on depictions in the Sentinels OVA and how "canon" they are, that also has to be factored in. Given the decoy nature of the SDF-3's ESH, a size reduction has to be balanced against the class of vessel they are shooting to imitate (ex. the SDF-1/Zor would limit it to 1.2km, which is likely the only vessel they would have information on).

The OSM can actually be applied in a consistent manner across all three sagas... the only real problem is that the Southern Cross material is simply so lacking in detail that you can't really provide the same level of detail in stats as the other two sagas.

Except you've just shown you can't due to the depth of the SDC:SC material.

As far as it "smacking of plagiarism", the overwhelming majority of anime hobbyists and most Robotech fans tend to take the opposite view that disingenuously trying to present Robotech as somehow a wholly or even mostly separate entity from the shows used to make it veers dangerously into memetic "original character - do not steal" territory

That the majority of people don't doesn't necessarily mean they are right. And it isn't like we have an alternative either which can skew things. If your option is Carrot Cake for desert or no desert when you'd rather have Ice Cream, most people probably would take the Carrot Cake.

[Seto Kaiba]

That is the $1,000,000 question though. Does HG have the rights to said fan art? AFAIK I don't recall ever seeing a Sylphid VT in the Fanart section (though I have to admit it could have been in waiting and I'm not a prolific viewer of that part of the old RT.com so it could have been), I recall a Conbat one (which IIRC looks to be the basis for the RRT VF-4 "transformation").

Eh... even if Harmony Gold doesn't already have the rights to the fanart via it being signed over to them via fanart submissions on the old site its a sucker bet the kind of fan who'd pay money to have fanart made for a nonexistent mecha would probably give them the art for free just to have that crackpot fan theory legitimized in some way.

It depends on depictions in the Sentinels OVA and how "canon" they are, that also has to be factored in. Given the decoy nature of the SDF-3's ESH, a size reduction has to be balanced against the class of vessel they are shooting to imitate (ex. the SDF-1/Zor would limit it to 1.2km, which is likely the only vessel they would have information on).

There are Zentradi ships as small as 500m, so it's not exactly out of the question. The problem with the whole idea being that, in Robotech, the ship the SDF-1 was built on was a unique and priceless space battleship owned by Zor not a mass production craft as it was in the OSM.

Except you've just shown you can't due to the depth of the SDC:SC material.

Eh... no, you can absolutely apply the OSM in a consistent manner, you just won't get a consistent level of detail because background mecha are not written up in the same level of detail as main mecha in any series... not even original Robotech projects. The same goes for the way the overall level of detail can vary between productions based on the inclinations of the design staff. That's normal even between different works in the same franchise. It's not like Robotech's coverage doesn't already have some sizable variation in the quality of its coverage.

That the majority of people don't doesn't necessarily mean they are right.

The argument was sound enough to straight-up kill the entire practice used to create shows like Robotech, never mind sink the reviews of practically anything Robotech since about 1992... I'd call it pretty well proven at this point.

And it isn't like we have an alternative either which can skew things. If your option is Carrot Cake for desert or no desert when you'd rather have Ice Cream, most people probably would take the Carrot Cake.

It's not even like that. It's that we've hit a point where access to information is such that basically nobody can kid themselves that Robotech is, in any way, shape, or form an original work. Almost nothing about the story is actually unique to the Robotech version, so why try to pretend that the show's ships and mecha are magically completely different in the exact same animation just because they put a different title on it and gave it a bad dub?

[ShadowLogan]

There are Zentradi ships as small as 500m, so it's not exactly out of the question. The problem with the whole idea being that, in Robotech, the ship the SDF-1 was built on was a unique and priceless space battleship owned by Zor not a mass production craft as it was in the OSM.

The whole idea behind the SDF-3 decoy (shell) was to look friendly so as to not provoke a "negative" response on sight would be the Zor Battlefortress (Novel take, I think other versions took a more generic Tirolian approach), even if it was a one-off design it would still look friendly. Where the arrival of Zentreadi ships might provoke a "negative" response since the Zentreadi couldn't just provide Earth the location of Tirol, and there could be a reason for that.

Eh... no, you can absolutely apply the OSM in a consistent manner, you just won't get a consistent level of detail because background mecha are not written up in the same level of detail as main mecha in any series...

But you can only apply it to a point, at which point it breaks down and ends up being inconsistent in application. For something like say the Conbat, probably not as big an issue as something like the Sylphid with its multiple episodes and multiple minutes of screen time where you would expect the recurring platform to be better detailed than the "blink and you might miss" Conbat. It also limits how you can use existing designs (consolidation of similar looking designs or different takes), and might even require ignoring the dialogue of the show.

It's not even like that. It's that we've hit a point where access to information is such that basically nobody can kid themselves that Robotech is, in any way, shape, or form an original work. Almost nothing about the story is actually unique to the Robotech version, so why try to pretend that the show's ships and mecha are magically completely different in the exact same animation just because they put a different title on it and gave it a bad dub?

Except RT in the released form back in '85 wasn't technically a straight dub of the 3 separate series in any shape or form (yeah I know the production history). They didn't just change names for the dub, they altered them to work together as a single cohesive story that would make them distinct. To say RT should just copy its background data from the OSM is arguably the same as saying that G1 Transformers toys should be rendered back to their identical (though not necessarily color pattern) looking OSM form (where a good chunk are piloted mecha in the first few series/waves) instead of what was delivered (sentient alien robots). The designs when they where adapted to RT become something else, just like the Diaclone (and other) line designs became something else when they where adapted to early G1 Transformers. RT like the Transformers (early toys) while not completely an original work, they aren't like their original works either in terms of end product.

[xunk16]

Except RT in the released form back in '85 wasn't technically a straight dub of the 3 separate series in any shape or form (yeah I know the production history). They didn't just change names for the dub, they altered them to work together as a single cohesive story that would make them distinct. To say RT should just copy its background data from the OSM is arguably the same as saying that G1 Transformers toys should be rendered back to their identical (though not necessarily color pattern) looking OSM form (where a good chunk are piloted mecha in the first few series/waves) instead of what was delivered (sentient alien robots). The designs when they where adapted to RT become something else, just like the Diaclone (and other) line designs became something else when they where adapted to early G1 Transformers. RT like the Transformers (early toys) while not completely an original work, they aren't like their original works either in terms of end product.

And that is where the rejections of the RNU hit HG the most, since it was their only version heavily based on their own original corrective concepts instead of an OSM that was never intended for that unification process. The old comics did a part of that, but the media itself is problematic when searching for consistency due to more than one hard-line in authorial intent. So you find there a different version of the problem met with OSM, which is the future not entirely covering up the tracks of the past.

[Seto Kaiba]

The whole idea behind the SDF-3 decoy (shell) was to look friendly so as to not provoke a "negative" response on sight would be the Zor Battlefortress (Novel take, I think other versions took a more generic Tirolian approach), even if it was a one-off design it would still look friendly. Where the arrival of Zentreadi ships might provoke a "negative" response since the Zentreadi couldn't just provide Earth the location of Tirol, and there could be a reason for that.

For the record, the false outer hull of the SDF-3 was explicitly made to give the ship the appearance of a Zentradi warship in the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels series and comics.

But you can only apply it to a point, at which point it breaks down and ends up being inconsistent in application. For something like say the Conbat, probably not as big an issue as something like the Sylphid with its multiple episodes and multiple minutes of screen time where you would expect the recurring platform to be better detailed than the "blink and you might miss" Conbat.

So you say, but your example doesn't actually follow your logic. Both the Convert/Conbat and Sylphid are background mecha in their respective shows, so it's not surprising that their respective levels of detail are approximately the same. Yes, the Sylphid has slightly more screen time than the Convert/Conbat but it's still a background mecha for all that. It's arguably more of one than the Convert/Conbat, since the Convert/Conbat is associated with a member of the main cast even if it is purely in backstory. I don't see any inconsistency here.

It also limits how you can use existing designs (consolidation of similar looking designs or different takes), and might even require ignoring the dialogue of the show.

So... what you're saying is, it limits you to what's actually in the show? That's how this is supposed to work. Wild mass guessing is no way to maintain an official setting.

As far as contradicting the dialogue of the show, that's a hilariously hypocritical criticism given that Robotech stats you're defending do that already. I pointed out in a previous post that in-series dialog clearly aligns with the OSM in identifying the Spartas's energy weapons as lasers while the stats make a baseless claim that they're particle beam weapons. What's more, Robotech's dialog is absolutely infested with errors and inconsistencies as it is, and Harmony Gold not only makes no effort to deny the fact... they openly acknowledge it and endorse using the OSM to address the problem.

So, at worst, you're still better off using the OSM because you'll have stats consistent the animation that ignore obvious dialog errors.

Except RT in the released form back in '85 wasn't technically a straight dub of the 3 separate series in any shape or form (yeah I know the production history). They didn't just change names for the dub, they altered them to work together as a single cohesive story that would make them distinct.

The name changes are very much "distinction without difference", and the (largely arbitrary) changes to the story have no real implications for the depictions of the ships and mecha in the animation. The story was not changed nearly as much as some would like to think, with the only saga to actually get changed in any significant way being the Masters Saga... and even then it's pretty trivial and heavily dependent on the original story once you get past the absolutely massive number of inconsistencies and errors.

To say RT should just copy its background data from the OSM is arguably the same as saying that G1 Transformers toys should be rendered back to their identical (though not necessarily color pattern) looking OSM form (where a good chunk are piloted mecha in the first few series/waves) instead of what was delivered (sentient alien robots). The designs when they where adapted to RT become something else, just like the Diaclone (and other) line designs became something else when they where adapted to early G1 Transformers. RT like the Transformers (early toys) while not completely an original work, they aren't like their original works either in terms of end product.

This is a very blatantly fallacious argument... and I have a hard time believing you don't know exactly how bad this false parallel is even as you post it.

When Hasbro licensed Takara's Diaclone and Microman toy lines to create the Transformers "Generation One" toyline and animated series, Hasbro threw out the setting materials of Takara's toylines in their entirety and crafted their own all-new, all-original setting and story around the licensed toy lines. That's a very different situation from Robotech's origins, which merely adapted three pre-existing stories and settings with some minor modification to string the three together. Unlike the Diaclone and Microman designs that were brought into a setting and story completely different from that of their original toy lines, Robotech did not materially change anything about the depiction of the mecha it inherited from Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA. The animation is THE SAME. The story is largely the same. Some minor terminology changed in ways that have no actual impact on their depiction, but that is all.

The designs in Robotech did not magically become something else just because someone slapped a different title on the dub. Your argument is akin to claiming that changing Harry Potter's name to "Larry Otter" and the word "wand" to "magic stick" would be enough to make those seven books a completely separate and distinct story from what they were when you made those trivial name changes.

[Seto Kaiba]

And that is where the rejections of the RNU hit HG the most, since it was their only version heavily based on their own original corrective concepts instead of an OSM that was never intended for that unification process.

That's an interesting way to characterize a painfully half-arsed licensed novel series so poorly written that it barely resembled the show it was supposed to have been adapting.

The old comics did a part of that, but the media itself is problematic when searching for consistency due to more than one hard-line in authorial intent. So you find there a different version of the problem met with OSM, which is the future note entirely covering up the tracks of the past.

Eh... as with the novelization, you're attributing to authorial intent what was actually a product of Robotech not being worth enough to the licensee to justify putting in an actual professional effort.

[ShadowLogan]

For the record, the false outer hull of the SDF-3 was explicitly made to give the ship the appearance of a Zentradi warship in the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels series and comics.

I'm not going to argue over it, but the SDF-3 ESH looks like the offspring of a Zentreadi ship (organic curves) with the SDF-1 (basic layout) since no Zentreadi ship AFAIK has that layout.

So you say, but your example doesn't actually follow your logic. Both the Convert/Conbat and Sylphid are background mecha in their respective shows, so it's not surprising that their respective levels of detail are approximately the same. Yes, the Sylphid has slightly more screen time than the Convert/Conbat but it's still a background mecha for all that. It's arguably more of one than the Convert/Conbat, since the Convert/Conbat is associated with a member of the main cast even if it is purely in backstory. I don't see any inconsistency here.

The Sylphid doesn't have slightly more screen time than the Conbat, it's practically the standard background fighter in its Saga. But is also means if you want to use them as the primary mecha in a new story (comic, game) you have the choice of either fleshing it out by HG for RT (at which point why not just do everything) or swapping it.

So... what you're saying is, it limits you to what's actually in the show? That's how this is supposed to work. Wild mass guessing is no way to maintain an official setting.

No, what I am saying is that the use of the OSM frames depicted events in such a way that it creates a misdirection in terms of RT's actual story would imply is going on vs the OSM story. I wouldn't call it "wild mass guessing" either, but it would require a lot of work which could end up verifying some OSM aspects for RT but not others.

This is a very blatantly fallacious argument... and I have a hard time believing you don't know exactly how bad this false parallel is even as you post it.

I think you missed the point. Hasbro's Transformers shows that you can successfully ignore their product's OSM to create something distinct and separate from their OSM counter parts, even if they resemble each other. Which runs counter to the notion that HG/RT has to follow the OSM material to be successful. Transformers isn't necessarily the only property to show this from that period, though they are the most successful. Granted to pull off something like this would take talent, something Hasbro has had more of by the looks of it.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not going to argue over it, but the SDF-3 ESH looks like the offspring of a Zentreadi ship (organic curves) with the SDF-1 (basic layout) since no Zentreadi ship AFAIK has that layout.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that no Zentradi ship has that layout... and come to that, no Zentradi ship is bright red... but it is what the dialog in that original Robotech work says. Strange things inevitably happen when you don't actually own the IP your series is based on and legal ends up being more involved in the writing than your actual writers

The Sylphid doesn't have slightly more screen time than the Conbat, it's practically the standard background fighter in its Saga. But is also means if you want to use them as the primary mecha in a new story (comic, game) you have the choice of either fleshing it out by HG for RT (at which point why not just do everything) or swapping it.

'
It's used more than the others, yeah... but not to the extent that it could ever be said to have graduated from being a background mecha.

Yes, you might have to flesh it out a little if you wanted to repurpose it as a main mecha for some original story... but the same could be said for almost any of the background mecha.[sup]1[/sup] Moreover, why would you want to? Robotech's main draw was the transforming mecha, and to a lesser extent the other non-transforming giant robots. Nobody's here for generic background fighter jet #23. You don't see Robotech side stories about the pilots of conventional vehicles for the same reason you don't see Gundam stories without Mobile Suits.[sup]2[/sup] It's all about what the people actually care about.

No, what I am saying is that the use of the OSM frames depicted events in such a way that it creates a misdirection in terms of RT's actual story would imply is going on vs the OSM story.

I'll say again, the RT stats as they are demonstrably ALREADY DO THAT... that is not an argument against the OSM. If anything, using the OSM increases the consistency of the material with the series.

I think you missed the point. Hasbro's Transformers shows that you can successfully ignore their product's OSM to create something distinct and separate from their OSM counter parts, even if they resemble each other. Which runs counter to the notion that HG/RT has to follow the OSM material to be successful.

You're ignoring the fact that that's literally a completely different situation that has nothing whatsoever in common with Robotech.

Hasbro's Transformers took the designs - AND ONLY THE DESIGNS - from Microman and Diaclone and put them into a 100% original story and setting that they created from scratch.

Harmony Gold's Robotech kept the stories of the original Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA, and only changed character names and some other superficial details to make the other two shows into an unsanctioned continuation of the Macross story. Those designs are still in the original context they were created for (the animation). It's only distinct from the OSM in a technical and largely superficial sense. Harmony Gold's problem with developing new Robotech works is that Robotech's story literally and legally IS NOT separate from the OSM. Its an adaptation, not an original story, in strictly objective terms.

The only Robotech title that actually fits your premise here is the pre-Harmony Gold Robotech comic that Revell commissioned from DC Comics back in January 1985. Revell did exactly what Hasbro did, and took the designs from Macross, Orguss, and Dougram and put them into their own "original" setting and story (that was heavily ripping off Transformers, but that's beside the point). Like what Hasbro did with the designs they had licensed from Takara, there was no connection between the story they came up with and the original context of those designs. Of course, that was also a hilarious crash-and-burn disaster, so...

This is why Harmony Gold and Robotech fans have always used the OSM as a reference for Robotech. Robotech objectively is not, and never has been, an original story or setting. It was, from the very beginning, an attempt to localize the original shows without excessively changing their original stories (by the standards of the day, anyway). They did not set out to create an original story. Rather, they set out to extend their localization of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross story by tacking two other shows that'd copycatted Macross onto the tail end of it. It will never be an original story or setting, because at the end of the day it is objectively just a loose adaptation of the stories and settings of the original three shows used to make it. They changed some names and some dates, but that's all they did. They didn't throw out the original stories and settings and start over from scratch. Nor, for that matter, did they make more than the absolute bare minimum number of edits to the animation for localization purposes



1. I feel compelled to qualify that with "almost" because the Macross Destroids are background mecha and nevertheless quite well fleshed-out because Macross's creators put a highly unusual level of detail into everything in their series... well above and beyond the norm.
2. To forestall a potential objection, there are still Mobile Suits in MS IGLOO 2: the Gravity Front... just not on the protagonist side until the final episode of the OVA.

[ShadowLogan]

and come to that, no Zentradi ship is bright red... but it is what the dialog in that original Robotech work says.

Well the Zentreadi do have purple ships, not just green so maybe there are "red ships" out there (or is the red a trick of the light and its actually purple). Though Tirolian Landing Craft used to transport Bioroids is red, but that's about it (the City Ship has some "red" in some shots, but not to this extent, then you have the Red/Invid Bioroids and a few shipside vehicles).

Yes, you might have to flesh it out a little if you wanted to repurpose it as a main mecha for some original story... but the same could be said for almost any of the background mecha.1 Moreover, why would you want to? Robotech's main draw was the transforming mecha, and to a lesser extent the other non-transforming giant robots. Nobody's here for generic background fighter jet #23. You don't see Robotech side stories about the pilots of conventional vehicles for the same reason you don't see Gundam stories without Mobile Suits.2 It's all about what the people actually care about.

Re: the Sylphid specifically.
While I agree the draw is for the robotic platforms, the unit is implied to be a Veritech Fighter in three different episodes. So if you go with that it could fit the mold, but you'd have to follow the dialogue and do a recton at this point. It could also be used as a gateway platform to a new ASC mecha in a broader story (much like the Conbat/Alpha are used as gateways for the Cyclone).

I'll say again, the RT stats as they are demonstrably ALREADY DO THAT... that is not an argument against the OSM. If anything, using the OSM increases the consistency of the material with the series.

No they do not, we know this because they have things not based on the OSM specs and instead based on the animation and dialogue. We aren't getting anywhere with these tangents, so lets just move on.

[Seto Kaiba]

Re: the Sylphid specifically.
While I agree the draw is for the robotic platforms, the unit is implied to be a Veritech Fighter in three different episodes. So if you go with that it could fit the mold, but you'd have to follow the dialogue and do a recton at this point. It could also be used as a gateway platform to a new ASC mecha in a broader story (much like the Conbat/Alpha are used as gateways for the Cyclone).

To clarify, it's incorrectly implied to be a veritech fighter due to sloppy writing.

This, along with the below, serves as an adequate demonstration of my point about why the OSM leads to greater consistency. Either you take the dialog at face value and have to expend a great deal of effort to come up with convoluted rationalizations for why this allegedly-transformable fighter is never shown transforming even when it would be advantageous for it to do so in combat, or you acknowledge the objective reality that the reason it doesn't transform in the animation is that it isn't a transformable aircraft and that the dialog is just an error caused by the show's rushed redubbing.

Instead of having to invent a convoluted excuse that potentially doesn't make any sense in context, you have a simple and straightforward answer based on an objectively demonstrable fact.

Likewise, with the trash compactor scene in Ep44 "The Trap". If you take the "official" stats at face value you have to wonder:

1. Where in the nine hells is the Spartas storing 60 105mm anti-tank rounds for that cannon?
2. Why is everyone calling that cannon a laser cannon?
3. Why would it matter if the walls are laser-resistant if the weapon's not a laser?
4. Why is it ricocheting like that? High-velocity anti-tank rounds don't bounce like that.

Or, sci-fi laser tropes aside, you can simply accept the objectively demonstrable fact that that cannon was a laser cannon in the animation and that that's the reason everyone's calling it a laser cannon in the adapted dialog for that scene.

Any way you shake it, the OSM results in a cleaner, clearer, more consistent answer. No need for Wild Mass Guessing or convoluted excuses. You just have a logical answer that's consistent with what you're looking at in this visual medium because it's what that visual medium was based on in the first place.

No they do not, we know this because they have things not based on the OSM specs and instead based on the animation and dialogue. We aren't getting anywhere with these tangents, so lets just move on.

Yes, they absolutely do. Demonstrably. In case you forgot, I cited a specific example of the "official" Robotech stats contradicting the series a couple posts back.

Ep44. The Robotech dialog explicitly refers to two of the Spartas's weapons - its gunpod and main cannon - as laser weaponry. See ~6:15 and ~18:48 in the episode.

Dana (6:15): "Well, here's hoping the laser still works. Stand clear!" (followed by her blasting a hole in the corridor wall)
Dana (18:48): "Alright everybody stand back. I'm gonna blast us out of here with the laser cannon!" (cue panic)
Louie: "These high-density ceramic walls are laser-resistant, Lieutenant! I really don't think it would be such a good idea to fire that weapon."

In case your memory is fuzzy on this topic as well, the "official" Robotech stats list the weapon used at 6:15 as a particle beam gun rather than a laser and the weapon used at 18:48 as a 105mm solid ammo cannon. It would not even be physically possible for an anti-tank round to ricochet like that. If the stats are corrected to use the OSM information, there is no contradiction between dialog and stats as they were laser weapons in the original show.

Now, I believe that constitutes objective and indisputable evidence your assertion here is incorrect.

[Jefffar]

I think Seto just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that official stats, OSM stats and what appears in the animation need not be related so arguing about which is the real stat is pointless.

Since that means the last several pages of this thread are now pointless, I'll lock this thread