Changing or having Multiple O.C.C.

[lbeaumanior]

Greetings,

Can someone point me to the where the rules are for multiple O.C.C.s? and the rules for changing O.C.C.'s?

I have seen a lot of theoretical optimization threads, where it is mentioned "being a Sea Inquisitor" on top of other classes, but no rules for it.

Thanks,

[guardiandashi]

I believe its in palladium fantasy high seas in print

[Shark_Force]

they can also be found in the cutting room floor section of the website.

https://www.palladiumbooks.com/question ... -dual-occs

there isn't much to it, and it doesn't really do a good job of describing what happens if you're forced into a class change, which can happen (for example if you are forcibly turned into a full conversion 'borg or something like that).

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think there are rules for having multiple OCCs active on the same character, there are rules for changing OCCs however.

Megaversally you have Palladium Fantasy's "Adventures on the High Seas" book, which is reprinted on the website (as linked by Shark_Force). Rifts doesn't have a general instruction, but does do it more on a case by case basis that follow the previously mentioned rules. You can find Rifts examples in the Juicer OCC (RUE or RMB, possibly JU) when the class is detoxed, there are also rules for when you change OCCs to a borg OCC (RMB and Bionics Source Book) and leaving the City Rat OCC (it can be found in the Bionics Source Book). There might be other case-by-case examples that I'm not thinking about. The 1E Robotech RPG actually has such rules (pg8 Bk1, Bk5 also included rules for advancing the time frame by a decade or more that would grant additional skills w/o altering the XP/level) that basically amount to the cutting room floor/AotHS.

[Curbludgeon]

There are enough examples of NPCs in Rifts with multiple classes that the class-specific methods mentioned above aren't sufficient to explain how it would work. The official Palladium Fantasy Errata as previously linked is the most up-to-date version of how it might best be handled, particularly insofar as the now-deprecated High Seas rules use terminology no longer applicable to the Rifts setting.

This, however, doesn't really address the Sea Inquisitor, which is its own kettle of fish. For that please check out Rifts World Book 7:Underseas, and accept that multiple interpretations of how to make it work are indeterminately viable.

[guardiandashi]

Greetings,

Can someone point me to the where the rules are for multiple O.C.C.s? and the rules for changing O.C.C.'s?

I have seen a lot of theoretical optimization threads, where it is mentioned "being a Sea Inquisitor" on top of other classes, but no rules for it.

Thanks,

with all that said the basics are:
the previous class is frozen at the previous level
the new class gets xp, but some stuff doesn't really cross over, once your new class is 1 level higher than the old class you become a functional hybrid class (kind of)
its up to the GM but I could see a character effectively leveling multiple classes this way, but effectively they would be going back and forth between the classes they have

lets say for instance you had a Dogboy char, so they start out as the dog boy RCC and get to at least second level.
as soon as they hit the new level they decide to change classes, possible classes could be military RPA elite or similar, a mage of some kind (rather unlikely) some kind of technical, or scholar.
one that I could see although some people will say its not possible, but mind melter or similar psychic OCC, essentially they are focusing on growing the psychic abilities they already have and expanding on them.

the problem is there are no actual rules per se for changing into a psychic class and I believe the high seas book pretty much disallowed it, in that game setting.

also there are no real rules for flipping back and forth between classes like having a full operator / glitterboy pilot and advancing both every other level or similar.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Greetings,

Can someone point me to the where the rules are for multiple O.C.C.s? and the rules for changing O.C.C.'s?

I have seen a lot of theoretical optimization threads, where it is mentioned "being a Sea Inquisitor" on top of other classes, but no rules for it.

Thanks,

There are no changing class rules in the Rifts game. (if anyone out there knows of any in the rifts texts, Please give a citation of where they are.)

The current published PB changing class rules are in the PF game, in the "High Seas" PF game book. They are easily imported to just about any of the PB games. However, the text only talks about OCCs being able to change their class. RCCs and PCCs are excluded by that fact that only OCCs are talked about in the changing class rules. Further more, in the PF game all PCCs are specifically disallowed from changing their class and it specifically disallows any char from changing to a PCC. (The Text disallowing these two things is in each PCC in the PF gamebooks.)

Remember that the PF HS changing class rules are written for the PF game. As such PCCs and RCCs that are masquerading as OCCs in the Rifts game are PCCs and RCCS when referencing the PF HS rules. i.e Mind melters and Dogboys are examples of these respectively.

There are optional rules posted in the cutting room floor. These are also rules for the PF game, and would have to be imported by the game's GM.

https://www.palladiumbooks.com/questions-resources/resources/the-cutting-room-floor/58-resources/cutting-room-floor/226-dual-occs

People will argue that they are 'Official" but in the years since they were posted, PB has had many gamebooks they could of published them in to make them Official, and has declined to do so.
These optional rules do talk about PCCs and RCCs changing their class. But the posted optional rules seam not to be written as a patch for Rifts players who can't understand why their RCCs and PCCs can't change their class.
➣As for me: the only way I'd let a RCC or PCC change their class is for them to loose all their powers associated with the class. In other words, they are changing their class because they have to.
➣Another thing about changing to a magic class, according to the PF MoM1, changing to a magic class as an adult limits the char's base PPE. See the Forsaken Mage in the PF MoM1 game book. This book also explains Why.

guardiandashi's explanation was a bit flawed and with little flesh on them.

➡︎The old occupational character class is frozen. (he got that right)
➡︎The char started out @ Level zero and has to gain an amount of exp before moving to L1.
➡︎ The character has access to their old skills, but using them doesn't let the char improve them.
➡︎If the character goes back to their old class they are locked into that class.
➡︎Depending on the class they choose to change to the exp required to level up is: Unaffected if close to the char's original class concept, if the class concept isn't close to the org. class then the exp required to level up is doubled .

Some explanation about the last point: Changing from one man at arms OCC to another man at arms OCC does not impose an EXP penalty. Where changing from a military to a scholarly or magic class would impose a penalty of x2 the normally needed exp to level up.
The PF HS text goes into this in more detail.

Are there other changing class rules from older "not current canon' books? Yes, in the old RT books there were some basic changing class rules. The PF High Seas rules look like they are an expansion on these older, now non-canon, rules. The limiting factor in these older rules is finding the books they are in.

[Blue_Lion]

Greetings,

Can someone point me to the where the rules are for multiple O.C.C.s? and the rules for changing O.C.C.'s?

I have seen a lot of theoretical optimization threads, where it is mentioned "being a Sea Inquisitor" on top of other classes, but no rules for it.

Thanks,

There are no changing class rules in the Rifts game. (if anyone out there knows of any in the rifts texts, Please give a citation of where they are.)

The current published PB changing class rules are in the PF game, in the "High Seas" PF game book. They are easily imported to just about any of the PB games. However, the text only talks about OCCs being able to change their class. RCCs and PCCs are excluded by that fact that only OCCs are talked about in the changing class rules. Further more, in the PF game all PCCs are specifically disallowed from changing their class and it specifically disallows any char from changing to a PCC. (The Text disallowing these two things is in each PCC in the PF gamebooks.)

Remember that the PF HS changing class rules are written for the PF game. As such PCCs and RCCs that are masquerading as OCCs in the Rifts game are PCCs and RCCS when referencing the PF HS rules. i.e Mind melters and Dogboys are examples of these respectively.

There are optional rules posted in the cutting room floor. These are also rules for the PF game, and would have to be imported by the game's GM.

https://www.palladiumbooks.com/questions-resources/resources/the-cutting-room-floor/58-resources/cutting-room-floor/226-dual-occs

People will argue that they are 'Official" but in the years since they were posted, PB has had many gamebooks they could of published them in to make them Official, and has declined to do so.
These optional rules do talk about PCCs and RCCs changing their class. But the posted optional rules seam not to be written as a patch for Rifts players who can't understand why their RCCs and PCCs can't change their class.
➣As for me: the only way I'd let a RCC or PCC change their class is for them to loose all their powers associated with the class. In other words, they are changing their class because they have to.
➣Another thing about changing to a magic class, according to the PF MoM1, changing to a magic class as an adult limits the char's base PPE. See the Forsaken Mage in the PF MoM1 game book. This book also explains Why.

guardiandashi's explanation was a bit flawed and with little flesh on them.

➡︎The old occupational character class is frozen. (he got that right)
➡︎The char started out @ Level zero and has to gain an amount of exp before moving to L1.
➡︎ The character has access to their old skills, but using them doesn't let the char improve them.
➡︎If the character goes back to their old class they are locked into that class.
➡︎Depending on the class they choose to change to the exp required to level up is: Unaffected if close to the char's original class concept, if the class concept isn't close to the org. class then the exp required to level up is doubled .

Some explanation about the last point: Changing from one man at arms OCC to another man at arms OCC does not impose an EXP penalty. Where changing from a military to a scholarly or magic class would impose a penalty of x2 the normally needed exp to level up.
The PF HS text goes into this in more detail.

Are there other changing class rules from older "not current canon' books? Yes, in the old RT books there were some basic changing class rules. The PF High Seas rules look like they are an expansion on these older, now non-canon, rules. The limiting factor in these older rules is finding the books they are in.

The thing is they are in a book, the cutting room floor was is just another place they can be found. So your argument about them not being in a book is mute because they are in a book. PF second ed adventures on the high seas pg 10.

The issue would be the megaversal system debate, where people disagree if rules for one game apply to another. PB writes some things in 1 system that includes notes for others, is an example of why some people thing it is megaversal system. The same power working differently in different settings supports those that think they are not all the same system.

That said first you look in rifts books for rifts rules, then if something is not covered you spread a wider net. Finding them on both the web page and in a book. (Rifts by its nature was made to import things from other settings.)


So the rules found in PF can work for rifs.

Auguring they can't be used comes off as not something helpful to the original question. Weather or not the rules can be used is up the GM of the the game. So I think it might be best for them to let the GM of the game decide weather or not to use them and just point the person to the information they are looking for. (he is looking for where the rules are people use.)

Given these rules kind of are required for some things converted from PF in coversion book 1. The lizard man mage and scarecrow both start with 2 occs. They also address godlings with mage class power option.

By the rules in the book as I recall bonuses and PPE from multiple classes do not stack. You use the highest bonus of the two O.c.c.

book -"O.C.C. bonuses such as pluses on initiative, to strike, save vs magic or horror factor and so on, are accumulative in the sense that the character can draw on bonuses acquired from both O.C.C.s. However, the player only uses the higher of the two when a bonus is repeated."

So some of the optimosied multi class may not be true to the rule. If OCC 1 gives a +3 to save vs horror factor and OCC 2 gives +1 save vs horror the charter would be +3 save vs horror factor.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The thing is they are in a book, the cutting room floor was is just another place they can be found. So your argument about them not being in a book is mute because they are in a book. PF second ed adventures on the high seas pg 10.

The Published Canon rules in the High Seas book and the later posted Optional rules in the PF section of the cutting room floor are different, as such which set is used, the canon text of the optional text, makes a difference in how the games mechanics work. So your arguments about it being a moot point is so much hot air, proselytizing for your home rules.

The issue would be the megaversal system debate, where people disagree if rules for one game apply to another. PB writes some things in 1 system that includes notes for others, is an example of why some people thing it is megaversal system. The same power working differently in different settings supports those that think they are not all the same system.

That said first you look in rifts books for rifts rules, then if something is not covered you spread a wider net. Finding them on both the web page and in a book. (Rifts by its nature was made to import things from other settings.).

That there are individual games that use the same system is a matter of fact. So PB's Separate Games using the same system modified for their Individual Games with the individual settings that PB basic game system's rules were modified to fit the individual Games' settings.

That they are Separate Games is a matter of fact that is well documented.

So the rules found in PF can work for rifts.

What is implied here, that is that 'I said that the canon PF rules wont work for rifts', is a lie.

Never said that the published canon rules wouldn't work for any other PB Game.
➣ What I said was that the PF rules would need to be imported by the individual GMs for their personal games, because the different PB Games are just that, different games.
➣And I did say that the the PCCs and RCCs disguised as OCCs in Rifts, need to follow the rules from what they Are, rather than using the OCC labels they are disguised as. (eg.: Mind Melters & Dogboys)

Since you are asserting that the Different PB Games are 'Just One Game' by your arguments, instead of 'Multiple Games using the same gaming system so it is easy to move characters and rules between the games.' You are advocating for your house rules.

There was another topic that the OP insisted that the problem between the different games was that they didn't use the same gaming system. So what the OP wanted to make all the other games use the rifts rules. And it went down hill from there because the OP would not understand that It is Easy to move rules and characters between the Different PB Games because they use the same basic Game System.
My basic comment to that OP was if the OP wanted to have a 'One Game' system, that the OP should go play GURPS.

Some examples of Individual Games that use the same system: D&D 3rd ed. D&D ed 3.5, D&D 4th ed, D&D 5th ed, and PathFinder ed 1 & ed2. (I don't know if StarFinder uses the same basic system because I've never read that Corebook.) I'm pretty sure no one is arguing that they are the same game.

Auguring they can't be used comes off as not something helpful to the original question. Whether or not the rules can be used is up the GM of the the game. So I think it might be best for them to let the GM of the game decide whether or not to use them and just point the person to the information they are looking for. (he is looking for where the rules are people use.)

Yes, letting individual GMs make their own choices for their personal games IS the Most Optimal way to handle importing Anything from one PB Game to another PB Game.

And Yes, pointing out a rule that Can Be Imported is a way to answer a question. However, saying that it is a part of another game's set of rules Must be done side by side with pointing out those rules From A Different Game.

So you trying to blast me for 'Pointing out that the rule being talked about are a part of a different PB Game, But can be used if individual GMs decide to use/import them for their personal games.' the way everyone should be saying while talking about this topic, is just lame excuse for blowing off so much hot air.

[The Beast]

I don't think there are rules for having multiple OCCs active on the same character...

The Mechanoid Trilogy book has rules for multiple OCCs in the third book's section, IIRC. I'd have to dig my HD out of my attic to find what page it's on and the exact wording.

Having said that at the time I found them I remember thinking that they're kind of useless at this point in Rifts since there's so many OCCs available that you should be able to find one that fits close enough to a multiple-OCC build.

[Blue_Lion]

The thing is they are in a book, the cutting room floor was is just another place they can be found. So your argument about them not being in a book is mute because they are in a book. PF second ed adventures on the high seas pg 10.

The Published Canon rules in the High Seas book and the later posted Optional rules in the PF section of the cutting room floor are different, as such which set is used, the canon text of the optional text, makes a difference in how the games mechanics work. So your arguments about it being a moot point is so much hot air, proselytizing for your home rules.

The issue would be the megaversal system debate, where people disagree if rules for one game apply to another. PB writes some things in 1 system that includes notes for others, is an example of why some people thing it is megaversal system. The same power working differently in different settings supports those that think they are not all the same system.

That said first you look in rifts books for rifts rules, then if something is not covered you spread a wider net. Finding them on both the web page and in a book. (Rifts by its nature was made to import things from other settings.).

That there are individual games that use the same system is a matter of fact. So PB's Separate Games using the same system modified for their Individual Games with the individual settings that PB basic game system's rules were modified to fit the individual Games' settings.

That they are Separate Games is a matter of fact that is well documented.

So the rules found in PF can work for rifts.

What is implied here, that is that 'I said that the canon PF rules wont work for rifts', is a lie.

Never said that the published canon rules wouldn't work for any other PB Game.
➣ What I said was that the PF rules would need to be imported by the individual GMs for their personal games, because the different PB Games are just that, different games.
➣And I did say that the the PCCs and RCCs disguised as OCCs in Rifts, need to follow the rules from what they Are, rather than using the OCC labels they are disguised as. (eg.: Mind Melters & Dogboys)

Since you are asserting that the Different PB Games are 'Just One Game' by your arguments, instead of 'Multiple Games using the same gaming system so it is easy to move characters and rules between the games.' You are advocating for your house rules.

There was another topic that the OP insisted that the problem between the different games was that they didn't use the same gaming system. So what the OP wanted to make all the other games use the rifts rules. And it went down hill from there because the OP would not understand that It is Easy to move rules and characters between the Different PB Games because they use the same basic Game System.
My basic comment to that OP was if the OP wanted to have a 'One Game' system, that the OP should go play GURPS.

Some examples of Individual Games that use the same system: D&D 3rd ed. D&D ed 3.5, D&D 4th ed, D&D 5th ed, and PathFinder ed 1 & ed2. (I don't know if StarFinder uses the same basic system because I've never read that Corebook.) I'm pretty sure no one is arguing that they are the same game.

Auguring they can't be used comes off as not something helpful to the original question. Whether or not the rules can be used is up the GM of the the game. So I think it might be best for them to let the GM of the game decide whether or not to use them and just point the person to the information they are looking for. (he is looking for where the rules are people use.)

Yes, letting individual GMs make their own choices for their personal games IS the Most Optimal way to handle importing Anything from one PB Game to another PB Game.

And Yes, pointing out a rule that Can Be Imported is a way to answer a question. However, saying that it is a part of another game's set of rules Must be done side by side with pointing out those rules From A Different Game.

So you trying to blast me for 'Pointing out that the rule being talked about are a part of a different PB Game, But can be used if individual GMs decide to use/import them for their personal games.' the way everyone should be saying while talking about this topic, is just lame excuse for blowing off so much hot air.

You said they would need to put them in print for them to be official. The are in print for the game they are listed under. The book version is more indept. Kind if like they published them to make them official and polished them in the process. So yes saying it needs to be in a book to official is a moot point because they have official version in the book.

That they are separate settings is well documented but they are all use the PB megaversal system and that is where the debate comes from.
Them all not being part of the same game is an opinion not a a fact. Weather or not all PB settings are part of the same game, is the megaversal debate.
Books written for PF have direct reference to using stuff for rifts.
Basically you saying the rules are not part of Rifts is passing your opinion on a debated matter off as fact.
The book itself has a line that you might want to read.

An adventure and sourcebook for the Palladium Fantasy RPG. Compatible with the entire Palladium Books®Megaverse!

The idea that telling them that rules found in PF are part of another game is just your opinion and as it states it is compatible with all the megaverse contradiction to the book.


Your opinion is noted but PF and rifts not being two settings of the same game is not a proven fact but an opinion.

The question was about the rule people are using to make multi occ characters, not a debate on if those rules are part of Rifts. So unless there is something related to the key point I think we may be done.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think there are rules for having multiple OCCs active on the same character...

The Mechanoid Trilogy book has rules for multiple OCCs in the third book's section, IIRC. I'd have to dig my HD out of my attic to find what page it's on and the exact wording.

Having said that at the time I found them I remember thinking that they're kind of useless at this point in Rifts since there's so many OCCs available that you should be able to find one that fits close enough to a multiple-OCC build.

Which would be in a line I am not familiar with (outside of Rifts SB2), interesting though.

A lot of Rifts OCCs though might also be treated as redundant, or regional variants.

[EliBenedict]

The Sea Inquisitor OCC was a special case. The class comes with magic/psionic cancelling powers (similar to the Nega-Psychic, though not powered by ISP or PPE) an MDC shield, and the ability to do MD when wielding SD weapons against supernatural opponents.

The class text mentions that some Sea Inqusitors also have psychic abilities. When you get to the skills section it offers a set of generic seaman type skills, and then says something like "or according to psychic class type."

The prevailing interpretation seems to be that this means a Sea Inquisitor OCC can essentially layer the Sea Inquisitor powers on top of (for instance) a Mind Melter's powers and skills.

Of course, this gives a big power boost to an already powerful class, but, in pre-RUE, when Mind Melters were a PCC not an RCC, this effectively converted Mind Melter to an OCC, which (per RAW, at least), opened up other shenanigans.

One favorite was to make Demi-God RCC, which is allowed to take another OCC in additon to its base powers, and then take Sea Inquisitor (MInd Melter). The Demi-God also got to pick a special power from a set list. One of the powes gave the Demi-God spell magic that increased automatically each level (a bit more powerful than that of the Ley Line Walker).

So you got a spell-magic Sea Inquisitor (Mind Melter) Demi-God, that essentially combined the powers of four already very powerful classes.

[lbeaumanior]

The Sea Inquisitor OCC was a special case. The class comes with magic/psionic cancelling powers (similar to the Nega-Psychic, though not powered by ISP or PPE) an MDC shield, and the ability to do MD when wielding SD weapons against supernatural opponents.

The class text mentions that some Sea Inqusitors also have psychic abilities. When you get to the skills section it offers a set of generic seaman type skills, and then says something like "or according to psychic class type."

The prevailing interpretation seems to be that this means a Sea Inquisitor OCC can essentially layer the Sea Inquisitor powers on top of (for instance) a Mind Melter's powers and skills.

Of course, this gives a big power boost to an already powerful class, but, in pre-RUE, when Mind Melters were a PCC not an RCC, this effectively converted Mind Melter to an OCC, which (per RAW, at least), opened up other shenanigans.

One favorite was to make Demi-God RCC, which is allowed to take another OCC in additon to its base powers, and then take Sea Inquisitor (MInd Melter). The Demi-God also got to pick a special power from a set list. One of the powes gave the Demi-God spell magic that increased automatically each level (a bit more powerful than that of the Ley Line Walker).

So you got a spell-magic Sea Inquisitor (Mind Melter) Demi-God, that essentially combined the powers of four already very powerful classes.

Got it, thanks for explaining so clearly...

So, if I get it correctly, Sea Inquisitor can be used only on top of PCCs?

And, what is the Experience table of the Sea Inquisitor as standalone?

[EliBenedict]

I went to the basement to check. The Sea Inquisitor OCC description states that 10% of Sea Inqusitors have the powers of a Mind Melter, Mind Bleeder or Mystic, in addition to their standard OCC abilities. Those three are the only classes mentioned.

The Sea Inqusitor's experience table is about 90% identical to the RUE Glitter Boy pilot table (there is some minor variation at a few levels,) and it's the same whether they have the extra Psionic/spell powers of a Mind Melter/MindBleeder/Mystic or not.

[Curbludgeon]

I meant to give specifics about the Sea Inquisitor earlier, lbeaumanior. I apologize. A couple of things are vaguely worded, so I'll try to make things explicit.

The O.C.C. is found in Rifts World Book 7: Underseas, pages 48-9. The experience chart for the class is in the same book, page 214. Most are human, but no species is specifically excluded. They receive a bonus to ME and certain saves, can dispel magic and psionics without spending their own PPE/ISP, can summon a protective aura, can sense supernatural evil and does extra damage to the same.

A character that becomes a Sea Inquisitor is assumed to have a background in something else. It isn't detailed if the character switches from a previous class at a given character level to Sea Inquisitor, or if it's assumed to have happened before play, but the latter seems likely. Their background effective class consists of the OCC Related and Secondary skills from any Scholar&Adventurer, any Psychic, Mystic, Sailor, Pirate, or foot soldier/simple warrior. While the description states "(r)oughly 45% have no psionic powers, 50% have minor or major psionics and 5% have master psionic or magic abilities (in addition to the inquisitor abilities)" it is left unclear if those abilities increase in level alongside the Sea Inquisitor abilities. The main argument in favor of it, as I see it, would be in comparing the Sea Inquisitor with magic/psionics with a Practitioner of Magic converted into a vampire. The vampire expressly is unable to learn additional magic, while there's no such language for the Sea Inquisitor. Whether or not a "the rules don't say I can't" argument is convincing is subjective, but going with a psychic class which begins with most of its abilities (like Psi-Slinger/Psi-Ghost/Zapper/Simvan) might be a good choice for the cautious powergamer.