Cumulative saves questions (and others)

[lbeaumanior]

Greetings,


I have some questions about saves:

1. I have +X to save vs magic and +Y to save vs Illusion; if I face an illusion that says save vs magic (whether is a spell or a creature's ability), what happens?

a. Add both X+Y.
b. Use the larger value.
c. Use only the magic save.
d. Use only the illusion save.

2. The text for Immunity to Magic minor power states:


This truly amazing power makes the character totally
impervious to any magic spell or illusion where a save vs
magic is allowed.



Does this mean that Immunity to Magic grants immunity just to magic illusions that allow a save vs magic, or illusions of any type where a save vs magic is allowed.

I am of the opinion that saves are cumulative (+x to psionics and +y to mind control should be added vs mind controlling psionics), but I would like confirmation.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[Soldier of Od]

1. I have always understood it that you add both the bonus to save vs. magic and the bonus to save vs. illusions. But I can't find a specific reference to support that, sorry!
2. I guess it's pretty clear in the wording - illusions where a save vs magic is allowed. So if there is no save allowed for a particular illusion the character is not immune, and if there is a save vs. psionics or other power (e.g. a natural ability, or Nightbane talent if you're getting megaversal), then the character is not immune.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Step one: Defining some things.
The save vs magic is for saving vs magic cast on your char.
The save vs illusion is to see through the illusion to know it is fake.

If a mage or other magic user casts a spell that creates an illusion, the illusion is hanging their in mid air. And the magic isn't touching the character. The magic is not effecting the character. there is nothing to save vs magic against.

In other words the char only saves vs illusion. If the char fails its save and interacts with he illusion like in Horrific Illusion then the char's belief that the illusion is real lets the illusion effect the char.

A save vs magic from the Immunity to Magic super ability, give the character an immunity to illusions with a save vs magic. Exactly what is says. It is probably worded this way because there are powers that make illusions that have a save vs magic. And since NightBane talents typiclly have a save a save vs magic I would suspect they are the reason for the wording.
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As for psionic mind control...
Save vs mind control is for more like resisting brain washing type mind control. And this is why it is separate from saving vs psionics. As such, there is not even fig leaf to rule that they stack the ave vs mind control into a save vs psionics.

As such the only time a save vs MC would be made when there was also a save vs psi would be when the subject was being "adjusted" by a psionic. Sort of similar to how a psychic sensitive is able to help heal those with mental illness faster than just a mundane psychiatrist.
Even then it would be Two Separate Rolls.

[lbeaumanior]

Step one: Defining some things.
The save vs magic is for saving vs magic cast on your char.
The save vs illusion is to see through the illusion to know it is fake.

If a mage or other magic user casts a spell that creates an illusion, the illusion is hanging their in mid air. And the magic isn't touching the character. The magic is not effecting the character. there is nothing to save vs magic against.

In other words the char only saves vs illusion. If the char fails its save and interacts with he illusion like in Horrific Illusion then the char's belief that the illusion is real lets the illusion effect the char.

Thanks for the answer, but your statements are extremely confusing to me. Hanging in mid-air? Touching the character? The spells (to my knowledge) do not mention any such details/restrictions, just what type of save is (Standard, with penalties, vs horror factor).


The mind control thing was an example, I am of the opinion that the bonuses stack when relevant:

-You have some powers that grant you +x vs mind controlling drugs?, this should stack with any save vs drugs if someone tries a mind controlling drug.
-You have a +y vs illusions? This should stack with +x vs magic when facing magic illusions.
-You have +x vs angry opponents? This should stack with your +y bonus vs squirrels when facing angry squirrels.

You get the point, it would be senseless otherwise, as some bonuses are quite narrow.


You also mentioned Nightbane, so lets use Night Princes as an example. Their illusions are saved against magic. I have +3 to save vs magic and +2 to save vs illusion. If I am dealing with a Night Prince's illusion and I am under any of those circumstances when I can save, do I save with a +5, +3 or +2? I say +5 as the save clearly states that you save vs magic, and since this is an illusion you get (only in this scenario) to add to the save.




In your Horrific Illusion example, when and how do I use my +x vs magic, +y vs illusion and my +z vs horror factor???

[drewkitty ~..~]

An illusion (in general terms) is a Light Sculpture, with realistic effects around it. It is picking up on the flaws of the illusion that lets you save vs it.

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Mind controlling drugs (drugs that control the person)....far as I know they don't exist in the real world or the HU game. Yes there are drugs that put people into an alternate perception state, ( hallucinogens as an example). but a drug directly controlling a person...nope.
Yes, there are drugs that put people into a 'suggestion receptive state' but there has to be someone making those suggestions. For this situation in the game the char would roll verses the drug. And then when the suggestions are made, the char would roll vs. mind control.

Note that a """drug""" that would take control of a person would be a set of nano-bots that are infected into a person. They would have to be tailored to the individual and pre-programed to do a specific task.
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Night prince's illusions are saved via the magic save mechanic. Why? Because that is what everyone is directed to use.

...as the save clearly states that you save vs magic,...

Take the game book's word that the save vs magic is the save to be used in that situation.

Horrific Illusion: the save vs HI you are directed to use the save vs magic as the mechanic to use.

[lbeaumanior]

Night prince's illusions are saved via the magic save mechanic. Why? Because that is what everyone is directed to use.

...as the save clearly states that you save vs magic,...

Take the game book's word that the save vs magic is the save to be used in that situation.

Horrific Illusion: the save vs HI you are directed to use the save vs magic as the mechanic to use.

But HU2 mentions that Horrific Illusion is a save vs Horror Factor. That's why I ask in that scenario, according to your interpretations, do you use save vs H.F. only, vs Illusion, and/or vs magic?

[Glistam]

Greetings,


I have some questions about saves:

1. I have +X to save vs magic and +Y to save vs Illusion; if I face an illusion that says save vs magic (whether is a spell or a creature's ability), what happens?

a. Add both X+Y.
b. Use the larger value.
c. Use only the magic save.
d. Use only the illusion save.

2. The text for Immunity to Magic minor power states:


This truly amazing power makes the character totally
impervious to any magic spell or illusion where a save vs
magic is allowed.



Does this mean that Immunity to Magic grants immunity just to magic illusions that allow a save vs magic, or illusions of any type where a save vs magic is allowed.

I am of the opinion that saves are cumulative (+x to psionics and +y to mind control should be added vs mind controlling psionics), but I would like confirmation.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

As a GM, for #1 I would rule "a," and for #2 I would rule "illusions of any type where a save vs magic is allowed."

[drewkitty ~..~]

But HU2 mentions that Horrific Illusion is a save vs Horror Factor. That's why I ask in that scenario, according to your interpretations, do you use save vs H.F. only, vs Illusion, and/or vs magic?

I stand corrected. I must of been thinking of another spell or something.

Even so, The HI spell specifically states which mechanic to use to save vs. And how the char reacts when they fail their save vs HF. What the spell does not say is if they have to save vs illusion to see through the illusion to believe it is not 'real'.

It would likely turn out badly if the chars make their save vs HF only to find out that it's a real dragon this time, after encountering and saving vs a HI.