Thinking caps- A fresh pick at an old wound.

[Jefffar]

While the Russians do have helmet mounted targeting systems, they are far from the mind controlled weapon systems seen in Foxfire. AFAIK, there isn't a lock then launch capability to these systems either. The helmet mounted sight merely serves as the interface for the plane's targeting computer, which passes the information to the missile while it's still mounted on the wing. It's a useful system, especially in a close turning dogfight, but nowhere near what you're talking about.

But then again, Robotech is science fiction.

Thinking expanded universe, there is of course the Macross Plus project, in which one of the Valkyries is operated almost completely by thought.

In practical terms, I see the Thinking Cap style system augumenting manual controls, not replacing them. Sort of like in Windows, yeah you can use key strokes to do everything, but clicking the mouse a few times is typically faster.

There's a variety of other ways this sort of thing has been done before. Voice activated controls would allow the pilot to bark commands to the computer "Set waypoint alpha" while at the same time manipulating all the manual controls. Eye tracking controls would allow the pilot to navigate command menus simply by looking and blinking.

I think in a Veritech it would work something like this: Jet mode would operate conventional, and in Guradian the controls are probably similar to a helicopter. While in battliloid the pilot manipulates the controls, he also imagines himself moving in the way he wants the veritech to move. The physical manipulation puts the limbs in motion, but it's the mental manipulation that imparts fine control, grace and agility. This doesn't necissarily require a helmet mounted system. Artificial limbs are controlled by the muscle twitches and nerve signals in the limb. A slightly modified G-Sut would probably be easier to create than a brain scanning hemlet.

So, could a veritech operate without a Thinking Cap (or equivalent) yeah. But the Thinking Cap would be essential for optimum Battleoid Performance.

[BookWyrm]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think some of your points can be reasoned out in the novelizations, Jeffar.

The thinking cap is mearly a peripheral device, enabling the pilot to better control the complex craft that is a Veritech. How do you explain the human like actions of the Battloid when all the pilot has is a joystick & a couple of foot-pedals?
The "BGF" switches may indeed be safety interlocks, as pointed out by Lt Col Andy Reddson above, and the visualization coming from the pilot assists both the 'smart' box in the veritech AND the pilot, since the transformation capabilities is relatively new (at the time of Macross). Since Dr. Lang did NOT rush ahead & 'invent' Direct Neural Pilot Interface for Terran Robotechnology, the thinking cap interface is the next (or, should I say, 'prior'?) logical stage to better enhance the flyer in the inevitable fight against the coming Zentraedi.
Also, the helmet look big & bulky because that was indeed a new type of technology, and most prototypes, and their first couple of generations, are going to be a little...well, big. Look at CD players when they first came out onto the market. Nowadays, they're slim & portable, back in the 80's they took up a whole shelf.

[Mike Taylor]

Foxfire is a line of books on Appalachian arts & crafts. You mean Firefox and it's sequel Firefox Down.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Sure there were mecha with "Thinking Caps" in Robotech....they were piloted by cybernetically enhanced clones of the Robotech Masters. The mecha in question was the Bioroid. That about sums up the total level of that technology in the Tv series....though it is possible, as some have speculated, that the Invid piloted their mecha through the excretion of pheromones into the green slop they lived in.

[Esckey]

I always thought that there were thinking caps simply because for a VF in battloid mode to do a summersalt, a few flips and what not all the while shooting and hitting it's target, all through the use of 60switchs/peddles/buttons(it is like 60 controls right?) I mean the pilot can't expect to pull all of this stuff off with out thinking it through in his mind.

At least that's how I reason it. And they were mainly used for battloid mode cause jet is pretty easy, and guardian is semi complicated probably be just as hard as flying a helicopter.

BTW while we're on the topic of modren thinking cap things, must point out the helmet for the gunner of Apaches uses the head and eye movement for it's 30mm gun.

[Comrade Corsarius]

OK: Helmet mounted sights are nothing really new. The FIRST one was acutally designed and used by the SAAF (South African Air Force) during the military embargo bought about by apartheid, as they needed to stay 'up there' with more recent technology. Many upgrades for the Impala and Cheetah aircraft to which this system was fitted purportedly came from Elbit of Israel, who broke the embargo, however this is only specualtion.

The Russian system uses a laser in a ball turret in the nose of the fighter (note the MiG-29/31 series and Su-27/30/33/37etc series), which is slaved to the pilot's helmet. Where he looks, the laser looks. This activates upon command (which may be verbal) and locks to a target upon another command. Once that is done, regardless of manoevers (I think it's with a fairly large cone of operation, approx 270 degrees in the horizontal plane) the laser stays locked on target and provides guidance for a laser guided missile.

"Firefox" was a pretty good book, although Mitchell Gant (the pilot) was a pretty wierd sort of guy, prone to vietnam flashbacks at crucial moments. A strange book, and it's sequal was equally strange, but it had a surreal sort of realism to it that made it very addictive. I own both books in my personal library.

I think that Firefox indirectly gave palladium the inspiration for (at least the EBSIS) tele-mental helmet. After all, it reads thoughts, and it's russian, right?

However, as RSCF has already pointed out, the Robotech Master's "faceplate" system certainly appears to be a thought-reading system, as evidenced in the first time we see the Invid Fighters in action (don't know the episode, but I know that the IF's name was "zela prime")

[Jefffar]

I think most of the cyclone's control system is based off of the same system used to control artificial limbs. Monitoring nerve firings and muscle twinges associated with the desired movement.

Flight, Sensor, Communication, Weapon and Transofrmation sequences would either 1) require alternate forms of control input or 2) require the suit to perform certain patterns of actions to trigger the effect (like in most bad anime).

[Jefffar]

Interesting.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Never subscribed to the think cap idea.

I could never reconcile how a power source could effect the contole of a vehicle, so I looked at the control systems.

I prefer the idea that the machine has bio-ciruits built in to take care of "basic" movements and functions. even with 57 different controls in the VF series, that is still going to lead to crude contol of the mecha and so I thought, why not have the mecha semi-automated.

the vehicle takes in the commands from the pilot to move it's leg, arm or what ever. while the pilot will give an instruction to make a full stride in battloid you can not expent him/her to learn to contole all the required systems to make one ballanced step, so get the mecha to to the fine details. this is sort of like a distributed brain, as suggested by some dinasours having a "brain" near the base of the spine and more recently seen in ST:Voyager with the bio-neural packs.

and how is this possible?

Protoculture circuitry. Protoculture chips are placed around the mecha, they act because of and on behalf of the pilot in a similar way to the force feedback system, but instead of just magnifying the pilots movements, they augment it. they take care of the details, leaving the pilot to concentrate on the big picture.

this can be used to explain trainng issues, and how the SDF-1 could train any joe average (see Ben Dixon) to pilot a transforming mecha.

Robotech is an extention of the technology of 1999, mixed with alien stuff. that's also a 1999 ravaged by war, I sugest that many aspects of technology emerging today would have been set aside in favour of the usual advance of weapons and armour. that would leave the SDF-1 research team to "catch up" on these technologies and with the amount of projects going on around the SDF-1, I am not sure Dr Lang would put much in the way of resources into a think cap, he is an engineer, an engineering solution is more his style.

this can also be seen in the design of the VF. basicly a highly mobile soldier, with some missiles. designed to counter a vague threat of giant aliens or bioroids or by some accounts invid or even all 3. they used the KISS principle and came up with the VF. a mecha that is still popular even with the VAF, VHT and VBF comming into service. with the further addition of the super VF (fast pack) you have a mecha that kicks butt any which way it can.

This may go some way to explaining why the EBSIS could not get Mechamorphosis to work

[BookWyrm]

Bravo, Adam. Talk about nailing it!

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Bravo, Adam. Talk about nailing it!

Not quite, I forgot that this may also explain why the Russians (EBSIS) had such a hard time getting Transforming mecha to work.

But I have edited that in now.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

At the risk of disproving my own points, I would say that both areas of research could be true and that during the '90 Dr Lang had better access to the technology of ditributed computing assisting pilot.

IF, the think cap did work, it is my postion that it did not for humans (more on that later), that it would primarily be a weapons system aid for pilots, where to pilot a VT in anything other than Fighter would require technology derived from power armour and exoskelitons. Technology designed to amplify or augment normal human movement.

In one of the episodes, Private Time?, we see Roy ogling a VF suspended in a hanger with numerous cables and such while it goes through the transition to bring the main thrusters to the "Guardian" position. no pilot, only computer systems. It was the inclution of protoculture into the controling chips that ultimatly made the system work in the field and is also what gets Roy "Addicted" to Robotechnolgy. "It gets in your blood...". This intuitive relationship between man and machine that takes VF pilots beyond the normal sensory imersion experienced by pilots even with out think caps or most any other augmentation.

Why do I not think Think Caps work for humans? our brains evolve and develop as a consequence of our enviroment, it took to much to customise the system to ONE pilot, let alone a flight group. yet, again it is the Protoculture that allows it to work for others. The Robotech mastes cloned using protoculture, the systems of the bioroids used protoculture more extensively than as just a crude power source and thus they where able to perfect the bioroid as an extension of the pilot, as a short term replacement for the pilots own body as it linked directly to the pilots mind. thanks to protoculture. The invid, particularly the thicker lower stage invid had a similar system. (and a bit off the main series,in Macross plus the only think cap machine was piloted by a Zentraedi).

Lt Col, If it had been a period of World War I would consider the posibility of either system to be equal. The world was in civil war, a different style of war. Augmenting ground troups would give better returns and as such would accelerate the progress of exoskelitons and Power Armour. So when Dr Lang was looking for a contol system for VFs and Destrids, I contend he chose Not to use a think cap and, with his new knowledge of protoculture he lifted the augmenting circuits to a level that no other system could match.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Wow... I just had a Colonel O'Neil moment...

How so?

[Jefffar]

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=19386

[Jefffar]

Yes it do.

Check this as well: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994795

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Adam- If you ever see the series, watch the Col. When some starts talking really technical, he gets this look on his face.

I had that look. Just WAY over my head.

Jeffar- That post does not exist.

I don't get to watch it as much as I would like.

and if the liks still do not work check "NASA develops 'mind-reading' system" in Sound off. (if you are registered to view sound off).

[Zer0 Kay]

NO all the books ever refer to is that the PROTOCULTURE picks up the thoughts of the pilot. Protoculture is a power source provided by the lifeforce of a Flower of Life seed. But wait that's not all it also picks up on the thoughts and will of the pilot.

Now if your talking actual Macross they don't have any mind control until Macross Plus and even then it is too dangerous and never used in production models. The only other system close to that in Macross is from Macross II the Metal Siren's Virtual Control System. It still wasn't mind controll. All it did was allow the pilot to operate better, because rather than operating on levers and pedals the system operated off the movements of the pilot. It also allowed for better perspective, it's just different seeing things as if their through your own eyes rather than on a screen.

Thinking cap sounds more like Battletech than Robotech.

Now Rick thinking to stabilize himself either could have been picked up by the Protoculture system or may have simply meant that as he was falling his natural reaction (thought) was to straighten his body and and try to jerk himself foward which may effect controls to do the same. I'm guessing in Macross though it's probably a safety feature of the valkyrie's it's harder to recover from falling backwards than fowards. That is likely why the system didn't try doing anything when he came foward. Which is another argument against the thinking cap thing. If there was one the Veritech would have likely fired front verniers to keep Rick from going face first into the building or at least have thrown its hands up. It's instinctual for anyone to try to avoid something coming at their sensory organs. Just watch anyone playing a PS2 try to physically dodge that incoming shot.

[Zer0 Kay]

(and a bit off the main series,in Macross plus the only think cap machine was piloted by a Zentraedi).?

The system was supposed to be able to be operated by either race. Remember it was his being a Meltran that also made the system fail. Remember he had to take drugs to keep his Meltran Rage in check. The user must have a calm mind and be able to concentrate. His being a Meltran didn't have anything to do with his selection for the Prototype it was because of his piloting skills. Why would they be trying to develop a replacement for the Valkyrie that only worked for Meltrans when the bulk of the Earth Forces were still human?

[Zer0 Kay]

this can also be seen in the design of the VF. basicly a highly mobile soldier, with some missiles. designed to counter a vague threat of giant aliens or bioroids or by some accounts invid or even all 3. they used the KISS principle and came up with the VF. a mecha that is still popular even with the VAF, VHT and VBF comming into service. with the further addition of the super VF (fast pack) you have a mecha that kicks butt any which way it can.

WT-f if Emile Lang was trying to use the KISS principle then he just would have made a flying Battloid. That would be Keeping It Simple Stupid. Not hey let's make a jet becase we want something that can fly really fast and give us air superiority and we'll have it change into a robot through a complex process where it's engines will become it's legs and we'll also have to make the thurst ports really really strong to compensate for the tons places on it and the parts that will be like the tread on the feet will have to be made special so that they don't jam up from being walked on. We'll have to find a way to rout the power and controlls through the small joint areas. ARGH!! That is not an example of KISS more like Keep it Complicated Stupid Moron Antiquated System SUCK (Systems Untested Could Kill [sorry had to add the acronym within an acronym like the military really does]) KICSMASS often (not really since I just made it up) called the "KICk SoMe ASS principle.

The best example of KISS would be to make man sized power armor with weapons capable of countering 50' tall giants. Cyclones would have been developed earlier. It's also alot harder to hit a fly than someone else your size. Probably alot more demoralizing to be beaten by them too.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

(and a bit off the main series,in Macross plus the only think cap machine was piloted by a Zentraedi).?

The system was supposed to be able to be operated by either race. Remember it was his being a Meltran that also made the system fail. Remember he had to take drugs to keep his Meltran Rage in check. The user must have a calm mind and be able to concentrate. His being a Meltran didn't have anything to do with his selection for the Prototype it was because of his piloting skills. Why would they be trying to develop a replacement for the Valkyrie that only worked for Meltrans when the bulk of the Earth Forces were still human?

I was only going by what I saw in the program. a Meltran piloting a V-tech with is mind.

and your later question, I can't answer. I can point out that the only mind controled fighter was piloted by a Zent', the project was doomed to fail fromt he start because of the ghost. I can hypothesis that if they could get the funding to make the thing work for full production they could try to get it to work for humans. either way it does not say because the series was not about political stuff, it was about the 3 friends and a crazy computer.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

this can also be seen in the design of the VF. basicly a highly mobile soldier, with some missiles. designed to counter a vague threat of giant aliens or bioroids or by some accounts invid or even all 3. they used the KISS principle and came up with the VF. a mecha that is still popular even with the VAF, VHT and VBF comming into service. with the further addition of the super VF (fast pack) you have a mecha that kicks butt any which way it can.

WT-f if Emile Lang was trying to use the KISS principle then he just would have made a flying Battloid. That would be Keeping It Simple Stupid. Not hey let's make a jet becase we want something that can fly really fast and give us air superiority and we'll have it change into a robot through a complex process where it's engines will become it's legs and we'll also have to make the thurst ports really really strong to compensate for the tons places on it and the parts that will be like the tread on the feet will have to be made special so that they don't jam up from being walked on. We'll have to find a way to rout the power and controlls through the small joint areas. ARGH!! That is not an example of KISS more like Keep it Complicated Stupid Moron Antiquated System SUCK (Systems Untested Could Kill [sorry had to add the acronym within an acronym like the military really does]) KICSMASS often (not really since I just made it up) called the "KICk SoMe ASS principle.

The best example of KISS would be to make man sized power armor with weapons capable of countering 50' tall giants. Cyclones would have been developed earlier. It's also alot harder to hit a fly than someone else your size. Probably alot more demoralizing to be beaten by them too.

No, to keep it simple they would not have made Honest to goodness giant robots.
I could have been clearer and said that once it was decided to make a 50ft giant robot that could be used for rapid responce, they needed a control system to help fine tune movement when ambulating. to keep THAT simple they used a variation on the force feedback that was well used, instead of developing from near scratch a Think cap system.

obviously KISS and Veritech do not go together, but as with any engineering feat, the object is made up of smaller parts, applying KISS to the parts is entirely possible and desireable. it is alledged that the Alpha fighter was developed throught systematic application of the KISS to each of it's systems.

and lastly, wow, I did not expect to see this thread again.

[Zer0 Kay]

I was only going by what I saw in the program. a Meltran piloting a V-tech with is mind.

and your later question, I can't answer. I can point out that the only mind controled fighter was piloted by a Zent', the project was doomed to fail fromt he start because of the ghost. I can hypothesis that if they could get the funding to make the thing work for full production they could try to get it to work for humans. either way it does not say because the series was not about political stuff, it was about the 3 friends and a crazy computer.

Well the mind controll works on either species.

I beleive that it was even stated in Robotech by Lang that Humans and Zentradi are unusually simular biologically. The Zentran may be clones but each one develops unique personallities.

Your synopsis is far too simple, or I read to much into anime. The series like every other Macross is primarily about love conqueroring all with an irratating music is the universal language aftertaste. However it has undertones about the danger of greed (using the unstable millitary grade bio chip) and the superiority of man over machine. Even though the Ghost was going to automatically win the contract its defeat convinced the U.N. Spacy to award the contract to Shinsei Industries for the YF-19. The YF-21 was deemed too unstable with its mind control technology.


Original topic: I think the novels did mention something about the thought control in the helmet. I'll ask a friend. However Carl Macek never mentioned it and neither did his production notes so it is not in any of the Palladium books. The mental enhancement component of Robotechnology is the Protoculture wich is a living entity, a small portion of a collective being. The energy the Protoculture reactors produce course throughout the machine so in the metaanime sense its (protoculture) tendrils run throughout the machine.

If Lang knows that the FOL seeds are a portion of a greater being and he still uses it, essentially enslaving it, does that make him evil? Kind of like a mindbleeder or necromancer.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Well the mind controll works on either species.

I beleive that it was even stated in Robotech by Lang that Humans and Zentradi are unusually simular biologically. The Zentran may be clones but each one develops unique personallities.

Biologicaly, based on DNA, humans are still not the product of the protculture.

Your synopsis is far too simple, or I read to much into anime.

yes. are you for or against the idea of a think cap, because I am against it. It's just that you seem to be against it but you are discounting my points rather than posting your own alternative theory. how about you go to town and give us an alternative to think caps with whys and with referneces.
I would enjoy an alternate point of view.

Original topic: I think the novels did mention something about the thought control in the helmet.....trimmed

OK, where did you get the rest of that? all my previuos posts where based on what any RPG fan could get by watching the TV show, without having to be a rabid RT or anime fan. As for the novels, are they cannon or just a nifty story. End of the Circle I do not subscibe to (except for getting rid of Minmae).

[Zer0 Kay]

Biologicaly, based on DNA, humans are still not the product of the protculture.

No they are not. However as I said before Palladium doesn't use TCs the RT novels by Del Rey do use them but they are not in Maceks notes or in the original Macross. Guld Goa Boman in plus may be a Zentradi but that has nothing to do with the control system (remember there is no protoculture in Macross). The ship is controlled with the same brain wave types that humans have.

yes. are you for or against the idea of a think cap, because I am against it. It's just that you seem to be against it but you are discounting my points rather than posting your own alternative theory. how about you go to town and give us an alternative to think caps with whys and with referneces.
I would enjoy an alternate point of view.

I am against the idea of TCs unless I was playing the old FASA Battletech or Mechwarrior RPG. I'm not really trying to discount your points. I was trying to correct some of your context. My next post will be my alternative pov.

OK, where did you get the rest of that? all my previuos posts where based on what any RPG fan could get by watching the TV show, without having to be a rabid RT or anime fan. As for the novels, are they cannon or just a nifty story. End of the Circle I do not subscibe to (except for getting rid of Minmae).

The novels were cannon until recently when they decided to start developing the new series. They (HG) don't consider the books cannon anymore since there is no Sentinels. That way when the new series comes out there is no continuity issues. Why don't you subscribe to End of the Circle. I kinda like the thought that the Robotech universe is a vicious circle. Some of the crap on the Protoculture is conjecture on my part. Taking the parts I like from the novels and the game and the series and removing the parts I don't like.

[Zer0 Kay]

Now my theory and sources.

What we call the Flower of Life is a single piece of the entity that runs the Universe. (End of the Circle)

It is through the manipulation of its seeds that we get Protoculture energy. (All Robotech)

It is due to the nature of the seed that the mecha react to mental control. (RPG+EOTC)

The Protoculture only aids in control it doesn't do it all itself. It was unplanned that it would do this. So the VT's are capable of transforming and moving on their own and they are fly/walk by wire, like most fighters are now. The pilot moves controls the controls go through an avionics/mobility computer translates what the pilot wants the craft to do and manipulates the craft to get the desired results. (RPG?)

No, to keep it simple they would not have made Honest to goodness giant robots.

agreed

I could have been clearer and said that once it was decided to make a 50ft giant robot that could be used for rapid responce

They still could have just made a flying robot

they needed a control system to help fine tune movement when ambulating. to keep THAT simple they used a variation on the force feedback that was well used, instead of developing from near scratch a Think cap system.

Deffinately agree. Thank goodness it wasn't like MEGAS X on Toonami eh?

obviously KISS and Veritech do not go together, but as with any engineering feat, the object is made up of smaller parts, applying KISS to the parts is entirely possible and desireable. it is alledged that the Alpha fighter was developed throught systematic application of the KISS to each of it's systems.

If that is so with the Alpha then why wasn't the Alpha made before the VF series?

and lastly, wow, I did not expect to see this thread again.

It looked interesting based on tech rather than hey here's a new story.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Now my theory and sources.

What we call the Flower of Life is a single piece of the entity that runs the Universe. (End of the Circle)

It is through the manipulation of its seeds that we get Protoculture energy. (All Robotech)

It is due to the nature of the seed that the mecha react to mental control. (RPG+EOTC)

The Protoculture only aids in control it doesn't do it all itself. It was unplanned that it would do this. So the VT's are capable of transforming and moving on their own and they are fly/walk by wire, like most fighters are now. The pilot moves controls the controls go through an avionics/mobility computer translates what the pilot wants the craft to do and manipulates the craft to get the desired results. (RPG?)

nice.
can you reference the RPG for protoculture and mental control. I thought it said it was because of protoculture that the mecha responds so well.
I wanted to keep away from most references out side of the TV show. I will conceed that Macross Plus does not have Protoculture it was a poor reference, but my Boman (sp) reference was only secondary, the RT masters is my primary point re: humans not being able to develop think caps becasue protculture is involved (some how)

I do not hold so high an opinion of protoculture as you do.

I could have been clearer and said that once it was decided to make a 50ft giant robot that could be used for rapid responce

They still could have just made a flying robot

This one is a thread all by itself. but, what systems could Terrans have drawn from to make a flying robot? Jets and helicopters where still the order of the day for flying machines. unless we want the goodyear veritech blimp. The Jet has a proven air combat history, a flying robot is an unknown.

obviously KISS and Veritech do not go together, but as with any engineering feat, the object is made up of smaller parts, applying KISS to the parts is entirely possible and desireable. it is alledged that the Alpha fighter was developed throught systematic application of the KISS to each of it's systems.

If that is so with the Alpha then why wasn't the Alpha made before the VF series?

the power system is one of the main factors in that, but I'll be blunt and use this.
steam engine (1804) vs Bicycle (1817)
As for the Veritech, you must learn somewhere before you improve the design.

[Zer0 Kay]

Ok it's not mental control it is because of the protoculture that the mech reacts so well but that is because the protoculture picks up on the will of the pilot. So it's not MC perse it's more like a well trained dog. You turn a corner while walking the dog so the dog goes with you without you having to jerk on the leash.

Why not the VF-HAB Hot air baloon? I can kinda see where your coming from but at the same time. Once they found that the VTs could fly in Battloid mode they should have built them that way. Of course that capability may have just been a fluke that Max and Miria figured out. Since they are the only two you ever see do it. So where did they develop the battloid/destroid from not to mention the transformation capability. The components on the Battloid and Destroid components are more complex than any of the Zentradi equipment and the armor is stronger. Don' t say Zor for the transformation there is NO Zentradi or Robotech Master machine that can transform. Then again if the designers just watched anime they could have figured it out. You know I sometimes wonder why modern arms designers don't look at anime. Then again check this out http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_XM8,,00.html and if you aren't already familiar with it http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_G11,,00.html
This brings up a point though there are advances in science that aren't developed on anything previously known (i.e. the wheel, the airplane, solarvoltaic cells, most electronic circuitry) These are innovations. Inventions often build on something previously known.

I'm not quite sure I understand the bluntness...Hit me harder. You know though this made me think you do realize that a nuclear powered sub isn't and neither is large scale solar power. Both system rely on steam for the effective energy. So we have not harnessed the power of a nuclear system yet. What we have done is made an advanced steam engine. Calling a nuclear powered vessel that would be like calling old steam engine trains wood powered or coal powered. CVN's aren't they're CVS's the nuke is only fuel.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Ok it's not mental control it is because of the protoculture that the mech reacts so well but that is because the protoculture picks up on the will of the pilot. So it's not MC perse it's more like a well trained dog. You turn a corner while walking the dog so the dog goes with you without you having to jerk on the leash.

and that's why I went with the protoculture bio-chips as psudo force feedback motivators. the mecha is just waiting to be told to complete the movement and reacts as quickly as the pilot even though it is at lot bigger.

this system aslo requires less training as the pilot simply learns the controls, the mecha and the protoculture do the rest.

it does not say much about how protoculture is used other than as a power source, but my contention was that in control systems, lik ein Mecha and in reflex weapons a biological component infused with protoculture enhances the system, making it sort of intuitive.

[Zer0 Kay]

I edited my response this one is just to get your attention again.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

I like those guns, those are nice guns.

well, it could be said that the Zentraedi equipment was simple because of the same reason the VAF is simpler than the VF.
The VF was innovation and invention, the VAF was evolution. also the VF was based on what they had on earth at the time, the VAF is based on an amazing influx of info from the RT factory and zendraedi archives.
the Zentraedi weapon systems have had a long time to evolve into their current form.

To hit you harder, the steam engine was invented before the "safty cycle". the complex comes before the simple.

your point on fancy steam turbines goes for fusion also, from the designs I've heard about.

Max and Myria. some of the sequences you see them in battloid fighting are in super VTs (VF's with SAP), so they may have the required thust to stay aloft but most of the scene are in space, where staying aloft is less of an issue. as for when Maxfight Myria before they fly into the SDF1, that battle is so frenetic it is had to tell if Max is actualy able to gain much height from battleoid when using it's inate configuration advantages to try to gain a hit of the Quadrano Ace. he could have been in free fall in battloid, it is hard to tell.

About as convertable as the zentraedi fleet gets is the command ship with it's 2 parts and the gaping maw that opens when most of the ships fire their main guns.

[Zer0 Kay]

I like those guns, those are nice guns.

well, it could be said that the Zentraedi equipment was simple because of the same reason the VAF is simpler than the VF.
The VF was innovation and invention, the VAF was evolution. also the VF was based on what they had on earth at the time, the VAF is based on an amazing influx of info from the RT factory and zendraedi archives.
the Zentraedi weapon systems have had a long time to evolve into their current form.

To hit you harder, the steam engine was invented before the "safty cycle". the complex comes before the simple.

your point on fancy steam turbines goes for fusion also, from the designs I've heard about.

Max and Myria. some of the sequences you see them in battloid fighting are in super VTs (VF's with SAP), so they may have the required thust to stay aloft but most of the scene are in space, where staying aloft is less of an issue. as for when Maxfight Myria before they fly into the SDF1, that battle is so frenetic it is had to tell if Max is actualy able to gain much height from battleoid when using it's inate configuration advantages to try to gain a hit of the Quadrano Ace. he could have been in free fall in battloid, it is hard to tell.

About as convertable as the zentraedi fleet gets is the command ship with it's 2 parts and the gaping maw that opens when most of the ships fire their main guns.

You find it odd that we're the only ones on this one?

In Robotech the Zentradi are tinfoil because the Robotech Masters don't care since they can make more. Just like the reason TIE's have no shields in Star Wars. I don't understand why the Zentradi are that way in Macross though. Guess I'd have to watch the original Macross and hope that it explains why.

I wish the U.S. military took up the G-11, I'd like to fire that instead of the M-16 (you realise the m-16 uses a .22 cal bullet). G-11 capable of firing 3 rounds in burst before you can feel the kick. M-16 Full Auto (wast of ammo), M-16A1 4 round burst (supposedly designed so when aiming at center mass one goes in the gut, one in the chest, one in the throat and one in the head. Fourth shot always went high), M-16A2 3 round burst (supposedly designed so when aiming at center mass one goes in gut, one in chest and one in head. Third shot always goes high.) I think the designers of the M-16 just use a fluke as a feature, hey sounds like Microsoft.

OUCH thanks for hitting me harder the dates were right ther and I didn't notice.

There was an episode in Robotech where Max and Miria were fighting off Zentradi over New Macross or whatever they called the city that the Macross people resettled. I think it was one of the episodes where Kyron was trying to destroy the SDF-1. Their wings were out there were no SAPs and at one point they flew in close to each other back to back.... that reminds me some erratta that Palladium missed. In one of the early episodes of Invid Invasion Scott and I think it was Rand (it was before they met lancer) put two alphas back to back and linked targeting system and launched everything they had. What game mechanics should this have? Also in Macross II They neglect to mention the Metal Sirens Ship Killer weapon, used in a sceen when the pilot is inside one of the ships. I recall it was an energy pulse. The outside of the ship blistered and then boom, and the victorious Metal Siren zooms out of the flames.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

I will have to confirm the activities of the last 3 episodes. to see what Max and Myria get up to.

A Weapon System roll for linking the systems, and maybe an electronics roll to physicaly cable them up.
it has been sugested that you can use a RadarX and it's laser comms ability to bolster the usefulness of the Spartan.

We re the only ones on this because, we have dragged the thread away from it's original intent.

[Zer0 Kay]

What would you put a new thread up at for this conversation?

What do you mean by cable them up? In the show they simply pressed back to back. I dought Rand would have been able to make an electronics roll. I figure as far as connections it would be the same as connecting to a beta.

I was more wondering on what the game mechanics for the bennifits of doing such were? For example if they produce a VF with a pilot and WIZO does the craft get full attacks of both? Does this allow the WIZO to select targets into his computer and then the pilot can fire a single salvo at all of them? Is it the same mechanics for linked alphas? I recall reading somewhere that while in Legios the Alpha pilot has all controls. That would be so short sighted. Especially since between the two you have 4 crew. The possibilities if the Beta's crew could act as WIZOs. Imagine each shot by the pilot tracks x targets set by 3 WIZOs. Instead of one target per salvo per attack. There could be X targets per salvo per attack. Even at first level with no mech bonuses that would be 6 targets per salvo with two attacks. You often see the Alpha's/Beta's firing from multiple launch system at the same time. Not one attack after another.

[Zer0 Kay]

I can see that happening in the same way that a AWACS patches it's radar images to fighter planes. It would allow the Spartan to fire it's missiles in a more stealthy manner and have targets wondering where the heck that volley of LRMs that are about to fly up their tailpipe came from.

Where did you get this load of whoey from?

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Only because we have moved away from think caps, but this seems a bit to dynamic to for a single heading.

Only seen the new gen' part of the show once, only 2 more box sets till my RT collection is complete.
so to guess, maybe the alphas have Blue Tooth?

The missile rules do not cover fancy thing like "death blossom", it's just volloys. the Zentraedi book (I think) has some info on random target aquisition for missiles, but it only counts for smart missiles.

just as you say, the alpha could have the piloting role and the beta could take over weaponry.

An AWAC is a viable alternative to the Radar X. we see this in the series when they use a Catseye plane to compensation for the damaged radar of SDF-1. an AWAC would have a better field of view than a Radar-X. with the AWAC transmitting target info to the Spartan the LRMs can use alot more of their range before the target is "neutralised"

[Zer0 Kay]

Only because we have moved away from think caps, but this seems a bit to dynamic to for a single heading.

Only seen the new gen' part of the show once, only 2 more box sets till my RT collection is complete.
so to guess, maybe the alphas have Blue Tooth?

The missile rules do not cover fancy thing like "death blossom", it's just volloys. the Zentraedi book (I think) has some info on random target aquisition for missiles, but it only counts for smart missiles.

Hey this isn't The Last Starfighter. I'm not even talking death blossom I'm talking real world a fighter with a WIZO often has the targets aquired before they come into range and the pilot can launch all missiles at once at pre programmed targets. As far as per the anime many times they fire ALL their missiles from all sources at once. they don't ripple off as if the pilot is pulling a trigger multiple times (i.e. taking an attack). I find it funny that a pump shotgun can be fired once per action but simply pulling a trigger takes the same amount of time.

An AWAC is a viable alternative to the Radar X. we see this in the series when they use a Catseye plane to compensation for the damaged radar of SDF-1. an AWAC would have a better field of view than a Radar-X. with the AWAC transmitting target info to the Spartan the LRMs can use alot more of their range before the target is "neutralised"

must be an AWACS of the future because the current ones can't transmit data to fighters. Most of the time they just confirm id for the lesser equipped fighters. If they could transmit data then the fighters wouldn't need their own radar and the A-10 wouldn't have to rely on laser targeting (it is one of the few combat planes that doesn't have its own radar)

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

The missile rules do not cover fancy thing like "death blossom", it's just volloys. the Zentraedi book (I think) has some info on random target aquisition for missiles, but it only counts for smart missiles.

Hey this isn't The Last Starfighter. I'm not even talking death blossom I'm talking real world a fighter with a WIZO often has the targets aquired before they come into range and the pilot can launch all missiles at once at pre programmed targets. As far as per the anime many times they fire ALL their missiles from all sources at once. they don't ripple off as if the pilot is pulling a trigger multiple times (i.e. taking an attack). I find it funny that a pump shotgun can be fired once per action but simply pulling a trigger takes the same amount of time.

PB's combat systems are not accounted for in that way. to steemline it they use the volley system. do not forget that a standard single shot also involves some stabalising and aiming. and medium bursts rock.
it would not take much to house rule an X per taget volley system.

An AWAC is a viable alternative to the Radar X. we see this in the series when they use a Catseye plane to compensation for the damaged radar of SDF-1. an AWAC would have a better field of view than a Radar-X. with the AWAC transmitting target info to the Spartan the LRMs can use alot more of their range before the target is "neutralised"

must be an AWACS of the future because the current ones can't transmit data to fighters. Most of the time they just confirm id for the lesser equipped fighters. If they could transmit data then the fighters wouldn't need their own radar and the A-10 wouldn't have to rely on laser targeting (it is one of the few combat planes that doesn't have its own radar)

dude, this is RT. it is the future.
there has to be some way to use a mecha that can fire missiles 1800miles but only has a 20 mile radar range. a R-X is a bit better but if an AWAC could use laser com's then we have the complete spartan package.
I say laser becasue it has good range and a tight beem.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Ok....to return this to the original topic...thinking caps are plainly beyond the technical know-how of the United Earth Forces (ASC/REF) by the start of the 2nd Robotech War. Otherwise their scientists wouldnt have been totally baffled by the control processes of the Bioroid (which uses something that is like a thinking cap in conjunction with implanted cybernetics).

As for the Protoculture Mind-Machine idea...sadly that is ONLY in the RPG and novels. It has no basis in the Tv series which equates Protoculture as an energy source (to humans) and a near-mystical (but ill-defined) SOMETHING to the Zentraedi. The Master's and the Invid, on the other hand, don't revere Protoculture as much as they do the Invid Flower of Life. The Masters basically built a religion around the 3-in-1 concept while the Invid lifecycle is tied with the FoL.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Thanks dude, I obviously have not watched SC enough (only once actualy).

we needed you when we started this thread.

[Zer0 Kay]

dude, this is RT. it is the future.
there has to be some way to use a mecha that can fire missiles 1800miles but only has a 20 mile radar range. a R-X is a bit better but if an AWAC could use laser com's then we have the complete spartan package.
I say laser becasue it has good range and a tight beem.

Yeah their called the Cat's Eye recon plane and the Sensor FAST pack.

[Zer0 Kay]

Ok....to return this to the original topic...thinking caps are plainly beyond the technical know-how of the United Earth Forces (ASC/REF) by the start of the 2nd Robotech War. Otherwise their scientists wouldnt have been totally baffled by the control processes of the Bioroid (which uses something that is like a thinking cap in conjunction with implanted cybernetics).

As for the Protoculture Mind-Machine idea...sadly that is ONLY in the RPG and novels. It has no basis in the Tv series which equates Protoculture as an energy source (to humans) and a near-mystical (but ill-defined) SOMETHING to the Zentraedi. The Master's and the Invid, on the other hand, don't revere Protoculture as much as they do the Invid Flower of Life. The Masters basically built a religion around the 3-in-1 concept while the Invid lifecycle is tied with the FoL.

True true and I didn't like how the books had TCs any way.

[Marcethus]

Ok the telemental helmet in the EBSIS battloids I have seen but as far as i know from the game system (Haven't watched the anime in years) veritechs and most protoculture powered vehicles the protoculture is what causes the mecha to respond to thoughts kinda bonding man and machine.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Ok the telemental helmet in the EBSIS battloids I have seen but as far as i know from the game system (Haven't watched the anime in years) veritechs and most protoculture powered vehicles the protoculture is what causes the mecha to respond to thoughts kinda bonding man and machine.

yep, but how?
check the rest of this thread for all the fun theories.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

An AWAC is a viable alternative to the Radar X. we see this in the series when they use a Catseye plane to compensation for the damaged radar of SDF-1. an AWAC would have a better field of view than a Radar-X. with the AWAC transmitting target info to the Spartan the LRMs can use alot more of their range before the target is "neutralised"

must be an AWACS of the future because the current ones can't transmit data to fighters. Most of the time they just confirm id for the lesser equipped fighters. If they could transmit data then the fighters wouldn't need their own radar and the A-10 wouldn't have to rely on laser targeting (it is one of the few combat planes that doesn't have its own radar)

dude, this is RT. it is the future.
there has to be some way to use a mecha that can fire missiles 1800miles but only has a 20 mile radar range. a R-X is a bit better but if an AWAC could use laser com's then we have the complete spartan package.
I say laser becasue it has good range and a tight beem.

OK, realised something last night. the mecha of RT must have high bandwidth transmissions because they can have video coms.

[Zer0 Kay]

OK, realised something last night. the mecha of RT must have high bandwidth transmissions because they can have video coms.

Damn that was too many nested quotes. Good point. Nowadays the only thing the AWACS and Rivet Joint are used for is target confirmation

[Marcethus]

Marcethus wrote:
Ok the telemental helmet in the EBSIS battloids I have seen but as far as i know from the game system (Haven't watched the anime in years) veritechs and most protoculture powered vehicles the protoculture is what causes the mecha to respond to thoughts kinda bonding man and machine.


yep, but how?
check the rest of this thread for all the fun theories.

Well if I recall it's supposed to be somesort of mystical bond between protoculture, mind and machine. Though the exact how eludeds me at the moment

[Marcethus]

It's a supernatural event like ghost sightings are. Maybe we're not supposed to know exactly how it works. Just another of those universal mysteries that makes life interesting. Of course I realize that there are those scientific minded people out there that have to know what makes everything work so I say good luck trying to figure this one out.

It's a good thing that I am not one of those that require figuring out everything. Most things yes but not everything lol

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Let me reiterate just so that we are crystal clear...

There is NO man-machine mind or mystical interface that is ever mentioned as existing in the Robotech Tv series. The closest we ever come to this is the Bioroid control system.

We don't even know what protoculture is other than its used in reactors in some fashion (though not as a fuel) which can generate huge amounts of energy necessary for such things as space folds. We know that protoculture is a substance of some sort that is yielded from the Invid Flower of Life.

Other than this...just about all bets are off.

[Marcethus]

Let me reiterate just so that we are crystal clear...

There is NO man-machine mind or mystical interface that is ever mentioned as existing in the Robotech Tv series. The closest we ever come to this is the Bioroid control system.

We don't even know what protoculture is other than its used in reactors in some fashion (though not as a fuel) which can generate huge amounts of energy necessary for such things as space folds. We know that protoculture is a substance of some sort that is yielded from the Invid Flower of Life.

Other than this...just about all bets are off.

*pulls out fire hose and hoses Rabid SC fan down with ice cold water*
Cool your jets man yeeesh. Regardles whether or not it's something mentioned in the Tv series, It is something mentioned in the RPG books. And that is why I mentioned it since I haven't seen the series in years I was using the RPG books as my point of reference.

[Zer0 Kay]

It's done with chips just like Adam said. So eludes Sentinels' description of one of the SDF-3s factory decks. It's protoculture MPUs.

Novels it is a TC but the nature of protoculture is "supernatural/mystic" it is in essence part of Haydon IV (actually a god like being named Haydon slumbering as a planet.)

In the animaricame (only because it was bastardized by an American) it seem to just be a mystic power to the Zentradi, a convenient power source to the Humans, An inexahustable fuel source and tool to make other cultures into endentured servants for the Robotech Masters, and finally basically all aspects of life to the Invid.

I tend to go with a combination of the three. All of the anime stuff no TC like the RPG, but it also doesn't have MPUs. Rather it is the essense of Haydon in the power core that reaches out through the rest of the system by use of somthing like telemechanics, at the same time it is also capable of reading the will of the pilot and performing as the pilot wishes. Essentially the reason no one else (like Minmei or Lisa) won't confuse it is because the essense becomes use to the pilot essentially bonding with them. Any other pilot can still make it mechanically function but it will not seem like an extension of themselves. Unless the powercore is changed out or the new pilot spends as much time in the fighter as the previous one did basically overwriting the "feel" of the previous pilot.