What would be a good kinetics based gun for a gunfighter?

[Rifter11]

One of my players got a little frustrated after having to fight a daemonix with the impervious to energy spell and later a dragon hatchling with the Invulnerability spell. He wasn't completely hosed since he has supernatural strength but now wants non-energy based weapon options. I suggested the big bore weapons from New West but the damage is comparatively meager. Anyone have better ideas? Pistols would be optimal.

[Blue_Lion]

Triax pump pistol. (CS has a version.)
NG super pistol has a grenade launcher.
Normal pistol with enchanted bullets.

(those are cannon ones that come to mind.)
Other option would be to make one like.
NG Gyro-jet pistol 1d6 MD per shot or 3d6 for a 6 round burst.
Range 500 feet. Payload 18 rounds with extended magazine.
Cost per bullet say 100 cr.

[Prince Artemis]

TW's TK Pistols. They're not great damage, but have some major advantages. 1) Silent 2) invisible (the round, not the gun itself). 3) They are actually kinetic energy, not an actual energy attack, so they effect those impervious to energy 4) Cheap to reload (ppe/isp wise), 4) They're magical, so effect those resistant to normal, non-magic damage.

They can be found in the original main book for rifts and some updated versions are in different world books but I don't remember which.

[ShadowLogan]

One of my players got a little frustrated after having to fight a daemonix with the impervious to energy spell and later a dragon hatchling with the Invulnerability spell. He wasn't completely hosed since he has supernatural strength but now wants non-energy based weapon options. I suggested the big bore weapons from New West but the damage is comparatively meager. Anyone have better ideas? Pistols would be optimal.

Explosive Rounds:
-Triax Pump Rounds (SB1o, WB5, WB31, WB11 as the CS also produces them), damage wise these are your best bet and they come in pistol form
-Big Bore Rounds (NW)
-Cybernetic/Bionic Weapon Systems have them (Finger Gun, and Forearm gun IIRC)
-Mercenaries SB has them (Wellignton Industries)

Kinetic Impact Based:
-Ramjet Rounds (Mercenaries SB), requires a burst for lower caliber rounds
-Rocket Rounds (WB6)
-Uranium Rounds (WB5, MercOps), this requires a burst IIRC
-SLAP or HEAP rounds from 2nd Edition Robotech (Masters SB has both, including pistol options unlike the Macross and Main Book), this is a megaversal option
-Archery (Crossbow or Bow) do have MD options, some use explosive but some use impact force
-Rail Guns: NG-R50 (MercOps pg93) not as good as most RGs in terms of range or damage but is comparatively very light weight, TX-50 (WB5 pg146) if you want better range than the NG-R50 but at the cost of a much heavier weapon and the CS's C-200 (WB11) isn't much different
-TW TK guns
-Psionic Weapons utilizing Mind Bolt Attack might be applicable (PW's Psionic Crystal technology, though a TW might also work not sure on the required gems for a TW version unless you use the WB9 Gizmoteer option)
-possibly sonic weapons (it depends how the GM classifies them with respect to ItE or Inv), but those are very rare (most are TW IINM)

Exotic options like Phase Weapons (PW IIRC) or I-Beams (WB9, though getting the hardware....) or Gravity Guns (PW) also exist.

[Dustin Fireblade]

One of my players got a little frustrated after having to fight a daemonix with the impervious to energy spell and later a dragon hatchling with the Invulnerability spell. He wasn't completely hosed since he has supernatural strength but now wants non-energy based weapon options. I suggested the big bore weapons from New West but the damage is comparatively meager. Anyone have better ideas? Pistols would be optimal.

The Black Market book really expands the Big Bore options a bit, and there are number of ballistic weapons available.

Merc Ops also has some good options.

Triax 2 has a couple options. In particular might like the shotgun and grenade launcher there.

[Rifter11]

Thanks guys!

[Curbludgeon]

World Book 25: China 2 has a solid entry in the GHT-85 "Hound's Tooth Auto-Mag", found on page 142-3. It's not normally available outside the Geofront, but might be the strongest mundane projectile pistol with a 500' range in an anything-goes sort of game. It isn't Chi-based, unlike some other options, and so isn't reduced when outside China. It's double barreled with 2 ammo feeds , allowing the shooter to select between 2 ammo types or fire them simultaneously. Ammo types include standard (1d6/3d6 for 3 round burst), silver nitrate (2d6/5d6, doubled for those vulnerable to silver), claws/anti-personnel (3d6/6d6+6), Mercury-filled (as claws+poison against supernatural), DU rounds (4d6/1d4x10+4), and U-rounds (5d6/1d6x10).

Not that it sounds like it would apply, but Sea Inquisitors(Underseas) and Apoks(Wormwood) can double the effects of weapons when used against supernatural evil, and turn SDC into MDC, and so blows anything else out of the water.

[guardiandashi]

its extremely hard to get, but if you could get it and pack it... the shemarian railguns are some of the highest damage guns I have seen for a "reasonable" weight railgun.

for a normal person I think the WI 10mm caseless guns from mercenaries are pretty decent

[HarleeKnight]

For situations like that, I use the NG-11S "Sawed Off" (WB10 Juicer Uprising pg. 73). The APRJ rounds are my favorite. Took out a Mystic Knight with it.

A weapon I was able to get but never really use, on an old character, was the Xiticix TK-Rifle (pg. 82 WB 23 Xiticix Invasion)
Wt: 20 lbs.
MD: 4D6 MDC, with a -6 to Dodge them
Range: 4,000 ft.
Payload: 40 blasts (20 PPE or 40 ISP to reload) IT COSTS 2 PPE PER 4D6 SHOT!!!

[Blue_Lion]

TW's TK Pistols. They're not great damage, but have some major advantages. 1) Silent 2) invisible (the round, not the gun itself). 3) They are actually kinetic energy, not an actual energy attack, so they effect those impervious to energy 4) Cheap to reload (ppe/isp wise), 4) They're magical, so effect those resistant to normal, non-magic damage.

They can be found in the original main book for rifts and some updated versions are in different world books but I don't remember which.

Wait when they get made silent?
Draw back odds are requires mage or psi to be practical.

Going over it because the gunfighter was not said to have spi the best physical damage pistol may be tx-6 from Traix with pump pistol being second choice. (as pistols where said to be preferred)
Triax tx-6 revolver fits the old west style the beast I think. damage 4d6 md. found in traix 2 wb 31.
pump pistol 4d6 MD found in 3 books. Traix wb 5, CS war campain wb 10 and gmg. (so better odds of having access to its stats.)

[Dustin Fireblade]

For situations like that, I use the NG-11S "Sawed Off" (WB10 Juicer Uprising pg. 73). The APRJ rounds are my favorite. Took out a Mystic Knight with it.

A weapon I was able to get but never really use, on an old character, was the Xiticix TK-Rifle (pg. 82 WB 23 Xiticix Invasion)
Wt: 20 lbs.
MD: 4D6 MDC, with a -6 to Dodge them
Range: 4,000 ft.
Payload: 40 blasts (20 PPE or 40 ISP to reload) IT COSTS 2 PPE PER 4D6 SHOT!!!

Love the NG-11S. I used it for specific things though with the ammo selection options.

[ShadowLogan]

TW's TK Pistols. They're not great damage, but have some major advantages. 1) Silent 2) invisible (the round, not the gun itself). 3) They are actually kinetic energy, not an actual energy attack, so they effect those impervious to energy 4) Cheap to reload (ppe/isp wise), 4) They're magical, so effect those resistant to normal, non-magic damage.

They can be found in the original main book for rifts and some updated versions are in different world books but I don't remember which.

Wait when they get made silent?
Draw back odds are requires mage or psi to be practical.

Going over it because the gunfighter was not said to have spi the best physical damage pistol may be tx-6 from Traix with pump pistol being second choice. (as pistols where said to be preferred)
Triax tx-6 revolver fits the old west style the beast I think. damage 4d6. found in traix 2 wb 31.
pump pistol 4d6 MD found in 3 books. Traix wb 5, CS war campain wb 10 and gmg. (so better odds of having access to its stats.)

I'm curious about the silent aspect myself. RUE pg137-8 for the TK machinegun says "Note: The TK bolts leave no telltale casing, bullets, or muzzle flash. Bolts that hit a target puncture or tear through it but there is no physical round/bullet."

At a guess, the TK bolts travel silently like using Telekinesis to move things (which is silent)?

[Killer Cyborg]

One of my players got a little frustrated after having to fight a daemonix with the impervious to energy spell and later a dragon hatchling with the Invulnerability spell. He wasn't completely hosed since he has supernatural strength but now wants non-energy based weapon options. I suggested the big bore weapons from New West but the damage is comparatively meager. Anyone have better ideas? Pistols would be optimal.

I don't think anybody's mentioned the C-200 "Dead Man's" Rail Gun. CR 80,000 on the black market, poor availability.
4000' range, 1d4 MD/shot or 4d6/burst of 20 rounds, 200 rounds in a short clip.

That's not fantastic, but it's decent enough for somebody with supernatural PS (it weighs 45 lbs).
Not sure what the holster would look like because these seem pretty big, but it does look like a pistol.

OR you could go off-book a bit, and assume that if there's the technology to make a 45 lb rail gun pistol that inflicts 1d4 MD per shot, it wouldn't be all that hard to find (or have somebody build) a smaller gun that does less damage, something like a 10 lb gun that does 2d4x10 SDC on a single shot.
Then get some PFRPG Dwarves to build you a Superior spike/bullet for the thing to fire, for +4 damage.
Then have this single spike/round enchanted by an Alchemist with something like:
1. Return To Wielder When Thrown (only have it return to the gun when fired, if the GM allows)
or Teleport To Wielder (which may or may not require an action to be spent, and may or may not require the round to be manually reloaded, depending on the GM)
2. Super Sharpness (+4 damage, and lowers the Crit range IIRC)
3. Indestructible

This should boost the damage to something like 2d4x10+8 MD when using that special round (which should really be the only round the shootist needs)
(or whatever the GM decides)

And since the gun itself and the bullet/spike/ball are different items, perhaps the gun could be enchanted with a couple options as well:
1. Spits Fire Balls
2. Spits Lightning
3. Teleports To Wielder

[Mlp7029]

TW Thundergun New West of 215, 1D6x10 MD vs supernatural targets or enchanted bullets 2D6 MD cost varies but 50-150 cr each in our campaign.

[batlchip]

IMHO any modern shotgun could be used they're good for all sorts of specialized ammo.Grenade launchers like the MM-3 or the M-79 would also be great.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think anybody's mentioned the C-200 "Dead Man's" Rail Gun. CR 80,000 on the black market, poor availability.

I mentioned the C-200 (WB11) in conjunction with the TX-50 (WB5) a few posts up, the two guns are stat wise pretty close differing by only a few lbs. If one is okay with reduce range/damage to get a "lighter" weight gun they should go with the NG-R50 (MercOps).

Not sure what the holster would look like because these seem pretty big, but it does look like a pistol.

It does have the pistol vibe going for it I admit, but what is the size of the typical user vs the intended user (for the OP here). If artwork is considered accurate depiction (even for a second), then the Skelebot trio shown equipped with the standard C-200 (for them, WB11 pg124) at 7ft tall depict something that is more rifle size.

OR you could go off-book a bit, and assume that if there's the technology to make a 45 lb rail gun pistol that inflicts 1d4 MD per shot, it wouldn't be all that hard to find (or have somebody build) a smaller gun that does less damage, something like a 10 lb gun that does 2d4x10 SDC on a single shot.

It is a fact that PW has Gravity Gun pistols (DB3 pg125-6, 2x) and might be easier to acquire than looking for an "exotic" railgun pistol, it should also be noted "GR guns can also be smaller, allowing for light rifle-size weapons that can be carried by normal humanoids", which is something Rifts-Earth examples can't duplicate (NG-R50 IINM is the "lightest" railgun package there is at 25lbs and the GR rifle in PW is 13lbs and the pistols 2lbs and 6lbs).

The above suggest that EM-Railguns might have a technological limit in terms of how small they can be made, at least to be viable (MD level) weapons (which is what the OP is looking for IINM). Enchanting is an option, though TWdry is probably easier to acquire than Alchemist work.

If we are spitballing ideas for home brew stuff why not weaponize the Acid attacks of the Borg Chemical Spray Implant/Option (Bionics SBpg91). The acid can burn for 1d4 melee rounds, so while the initial damage is low (1d4) the secondary effect means it is 1d4*1d4 (potentially 2-16 points of damage). It should be noted the Borg Implant Acid isn't intended as a weapon, so the stats leave some room for improvement (off hand I don't know of stronger MD acids, and if they can be used in place of the specialty gas gun ammo types in RMB pg245). These acid attack options via weapons are pretty rare AFAIK, but they might fall in that gray area where Invulnerability don't offer any protection depending if the GM considers the Acid to fall under one of the existing protections or not.

[Nekira Sudacne]

My favorite for that kind of work is the Viper, from Merc Ops, with the heavy ramjets it does 2d4*10 MDC with a 20 round burst of Heavy Ramjets.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think anybody's mentioned the C-200 "Dead Man's" Rail Gun. CR 80,000 on the black market, poor availability.

I mentioned the C-200 (WB11) in conjunction with the TX-50 (WB5) a few posts up, the two guns are stat wise pretty close differing by only a few lbs. If one is okay with reduce range/damage to get a "lighter" weight gun they should go with the NG-R50 (MercOps).

My bad!

Not sure what the holster would look like because these seem pretty big, but it does look like a pistol.

It does have the pistol vibe going for it I admit, but what is the size of the typical user vs the intended user (for the OP here). If artwork is considered accurate depiction (even for a second), then the Skelebot trio shown equipped with the standard C-200 (for them, WB11 pg124) at 7ft tall depict something that is more rifle size.

Fair enough; I was looking more at 123.

OR you could go off-book a bit, and assume that if there's the technology to make a 45 lb rail gun pistol that inflicts 1d4 MD per shot, it wouldn't be all that hard to find (or have somebody build) a smaller gun that does less damage, something like a 10 lb gun that does 2d4x10 SDC on a single shot.

It is a fact that PW has Gravity Gun pistols (DB3 pg125-6, 2x) and might be easier to acquire than looking for an "exotic" railgun pistol, it should also be noted "GR guns can also be smaller, allowing for light rifle-size weapons that can be carried by normal humanoids", which is something Rifts-Earth examples can't duplicate (NG-R50 IINM is the "lightest" railgun package there is at 25lbs and the GR rifle in PW is 13lbs and the pistols 2lbs and 6lbs).

Eh.
I was looking at stuff that somebody could theoretically get on Rifts Earth.
But yeah, Phase World stuff is almost always superior.

The above suggest that EM-Railguns might have a technological limit in terms of how small they can be made, at least to be viable (MD level) weapons (which is what the OP is looking for IINM). Enchanting is an option, though TWdry is probably easier to acquire than Alchemist work.

Technowizards would be easier to find than Alchemists, but both can be found on Rifts Earth, IIRC.
Technowizardry is kind of broken for this kind of conversation, IMO, because it can literally do anything the GM allows it to.
I could whip up a TW Pistol that did hundreds of MD per shot, and if the GM okayed it, it'd be within canon for the thing to work.
I tend to try to stick with stuff that's in the books specifically.

If we are spitballing ideas for home brew stuff why not weaponize the Acid attacks of the Borg Chemical Spray Implant/Option (Bionics SBpg91). The acid can burn for 1d4 melee rounds, so while the initial damage is low (1d4) the secondary effect means it is 1d4*1d4 (potentially 2-16 points of damage). It should be noted the Borg Implant Acid isn't intended as a weapon, so the stats leave some room for improvement (off hand I don't know of stronger MD acids, and if they can be used in place of the specialty gas gun ammo types in RMB pg245). These acid attack options via weapons are pretty rare AFAIK, but they might fall in that gray area where Invulnerability don't offer any protection depending if the GM considers the Acid to fall under one of the existing protections or not.

I think the Invulnerable would still be impervious, but I like the idea of an acid attack.
Depending on how much spray it takes to inflict that damage, maybe it could be put in a paintball and fired from an airgun.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the biggest issue is we do not know the WP skills of the character. Secondary is what books are available.

If he does not have heavy then rail guns would be a poor choice. If he does then they are fairly common.

If he has revolver or wp pistol then the TX line of md pistols revolver and pump are good damage for pistols. Issue becomes availability.

If he is away from CS then magic becomes a better option.

If he has psi then tw becomes a better option.

So I think to narrow it down to what is viable for the character we need more information.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the biggest issue is we do not know the WP skills of the character. Secondary is what books are available.

If he does not have heavy then rail guns would be a poor choice. If he does then they are fairly common.

If he has revolver or wp pistol then the TX line of md pistols revolver and pump are good damage for pistols. Issue becomes availability.

If he is away from CS then magic becomes a better option.

If he has psi then tw becomes a better option.

So I think to narrow it down to what is viable for the character we need more information.

Agreed.
Also, it'd be easier to come up with something if we knew what books/setting the character had access to.

[13eowulf]

One of my players got a little frustrated after having to fight a daemonix with the impervious to energy spell and later a dragon hatchling with the Invulnerability spell. He wasn't completely hosed since he has supernatural strength but now wants non-energy based weapon options. I suggested the big bore weapons from New West but the damage is comparatively meager. Anyone have better ideas? Pistols would be optimal.

If pistols are optimal, may I suggest S.D.C. pistols or revolvers, charmed/enchanted by the Nightbane Charm Weapon or Enchant Weapon spells. These spells enchant the weapon rather than ammo (the Rifts Enchant Weapon enchants ammo instead), and they can inflict their normal damage to any target, even otherwise impervious targets like Vampires. The slugs remain slugs, not energy. Inexpensive to reload as well.
a .45 pistol in Rifts does 4D6 damage per shot (SDC, but with the enchantment...), and a .44 Magnum does 6D6 damage (again, SDC, but also, enchantment). Merc Ops has more SDC firearms.
Another option to consider with this enchantment is the MP-10 Caseless Pistol from Mercenaries. A single round only does 3D6 (SDC + enchantment) but can do 1D6x10 (SDC) for a 10-round burst.

Depending on your ruling as a GM this enchantment may or may not work against mundane/mortals like Humans in Deadboy Armour.

[ShadowLogan]

I think the Invulnerable would still be impervious, but I like the idea of an acid attack.
Depending on how much spray it takes to inflict that damage, maybe it could be put in a paintball and fired from an airgun.

The main drawback is I really can't find precedent for an acid weapon. I know some creatures have acid attacks, and the Necrol in PW do have a few acid weapons but those are still creatures. But as far as tech, acid attacks are presented as an "improvised" attack of a tool.

Another spitball idea that I've been knocking around for a long time would be to create "vibro-blade bullets". Either by use of disposable vibro-blade generators as part of the bullet (if you can pack explosives into a bullet...) or temporarily imparting the vibro-blade "field" to the bullet as it is fired. Both likely require purpose-built guns (or modification kits for an existing gun), and one would require specialized ammo on top of it so there is some room for a GM to play with the idea. The only major stumbling block is if Vibro-weapons would be subject to Impervious to Energy or Invulnerability.

[Mack]

If the GM were to allow some shenanigans...

Use the Supernatural Damage Fetish (Spirit West, p89) which makes an SDC revolver become a MD weapon. And if you really want to abuse it, combine it with the Viper (mentioned by Nekira in Merc Ops) for some ridiculous damage.

(I had a concept years ago for a Native American Psi-Slinger who used a pair of these fetishes to get his pistol damage up to par.)

[Rifter11]

TW Thundergun New West of 215, 1D6x10 MD vs supernatural targets or enchanted bullets 2D6 MD cost varies but 50-150 cr each in our campaign.

This was perfect!

But thanks to everyone for the input!

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the Invulnerable would still be impervious, but I like the idea of an acid attack.
Depending on how much spray it takes to inflict that damage, maybe it could be put in a paintball and fired from an airgun.

The main drawback is I really can't find precedent for an acid weapon. I know some creatures have acid attacks, and the Necrol in PW do have a few acid weapons but those are still creatures. But as far as tech, acid attacks are presented as an "improvised" attack of a tool.

Another spitball idea that I've been knocking around for a long time would be to create "vibro-blade bullets". Either by use of disposable vibro-blade generators as part of the bullet (if you can pack explosives into a bullet...) or temporarily imparting the vibro-blade "field" to the bullet as it is fired. Both likely require purpose-built guns (or modification kits for an existing gun), and one would require specialized ammo on top of it so there is some room for a GM to play with the idea. The only major stumbling block is if Vibro-weapons would be subject to Impervious to Energy or Invulnerability.

Looking at HU2 p. 278
You could argue that acid falls into the "gasses, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, disease, and radiation" category. In fact, "Chemicals" would seem to cover acid very well.
Which would mean the damage/potency/effect would be 1/2 normal.
"Deadly poisons, radiation, and disease cannot kill this character, only make him sick."
It'd be up to the GM to decide whether the absence of "chemicals" from the list means it CAN kill the character, or whether it's intended to be included.
So you might be onto something there; acid should hurt invulnerable characters to some degree.
Huh.

Vibro Blades shouldn't hurt an invulnerable character.
If they did, then one of the Conversion Books would likely mention it, or it'd be mentioned elsewhere.
Technically it's up for debate though, because particle beams (as of the HUGMG iirc) inflict partial damage to Invulnerable characters. The explanation given by the author (iirc) was "particle beams are basically disintegration."
Depending on the specifics of how vibro-blades in Palladium's games work, it's possible that the energy field that does the vibro damage would count as a particle beam or something close to it.

Officially, I'd say that vibro blades do NOT hurt Invulnerable characters, but it's a "they don't until an author says they do" situation, like with what happened regarding Particle Beams.

[ShadowLogan]

Vibro Blades shouldn't hurt an invulnerable character.
If they did, then one of the Conversion Books would likely mention it, or it'd be mentioned elsewhere.
Technically it's up for debate though, because particle beams (as of the HUGMG iirc) inflict partial damage to Invulnerable characters. The explanation given by the author (iirc) was "particle beams are basically disintegration."
Depending on the specifics of how vibro-blades in Palladium's games work, it's possible that the energy field that does the vibro damage would count as a particle beam or something close to it.

I can understand why Particle Beams (and other energy weapons that operate similarly in point of technicality) could circumvent energy immunity because they are a stream of physical particles impacting at high speeds making them essentially a projectile weapon.

As for the Vibro-Blades I do think its a GM call. While there is an energywww field involved, I know of no Vibro-Blade weapon w/o the physical blade*, in fact its hard to say if the "energy field" is doing the damage directly or is doing something to the physical "blades" that allow them to cut w/MD force (RUE description pg259). And looking at DB8: Naruni Wave 2 (pg23) with the Ripper Vibro-Blade variation, it suggests it isn't an energy field at all but rather the physical blade being vibrated by the field (in the case of the Ripper it randomly changes direction, they even call it a "Vibration Field"). But basically it will boil down to how the GM see the technical aspect of the weapon working, is this "field" doing the damage directly or is it altering the physical blade.

*Wilks Laser Sword/Knives (MercOps/NW), and Naruni's energy sword (Mecha Knight in Mercenaries) come to mind, but these aren't presented as vibro-blades. And the Wilks invents its own "laser field" thing.

[Killer Cyborg]

Vibro Blades shouldn't hurt an invulnerable character.
If they did, then one of the Conversion Books would likely mention it, or it'd be mentioned elsewhere.
Technically it's up for debate though, because particle beams (as of the HUGMG iirc) inflict partial damage to Invulnerable characters. The explanation given by the author (iirc) was "particle beams are basically disintegration."
Depending on the specifics of how vibro-blades in Palladium's games work, it's possible that the energy field that does the vibro damage would count as a particle beam or something close to it.

I can understand why Particle Beams (and other energy weapons that operate similarly in point of technicality) could circumvent energy immunity because they are a stream of physical particles impacting at high speeds making them essentially a projectile weapon.

I don't get it.
Particle beams are energy weapons, and Invulnerable characters aren't hurt by energy attacks.
Particle beams could arguably be kinetic attacks too, but Invulnerable characters aren't hurt by kinetic attacks either.
I think it really comes down to Palladium not taking a hard line when it comes to their own rules; they will rule that something is "impervious to all attacks" except a handful of vulnerabilities, then say stuff along the lines of "but obviously a nuke would kill a vampire" even though it doesn't fit the rules they've laid out.

As for the Vibro-Blades I do think its a GM call. While there is an energywww field involved, I know of no Vibro-Blade weapon w/o the physical blade*, in fact its hard to say if the "energy field" is doing the damage directly or is doing something to the physical "blades" that allow them to cut w/MD force (RUE description pg259). And looking at DB8: Naruni Wave 2 (pg23) with the Ripper Vibro-Blade variation, it suggests it isn't an energy field at all but rather the physical blade being vibrated by the field (in the case of the Ripper it randomly changes direction, they even call it a "Vibration Field"). But basically it will boil down to how the GM see the technical aspect of the weapon working, is this "field" doing the damage directly or is it altering the physical blade.

Palladium is inconsistent at best in how they represent vibro blades, but generally in science fiction the "energy field" is what does the cutting, and even though Rifts does not seem to include vibro blades as a kind of energy weapon, they do seem to support that idea more often than not.
How exactly vibro-blades work in various kinds of fiction vary quite a bit, and range from "electric turkey carver on steroids" to "sonic cutting tool" to "vibrates so fast there's a particle field surrounding the blade that makes it both nigh-indestructible and quite damaging."
Many sources seem to have trouble keeping straight how it works, and often the "turkey-carver" or "sonic cutting tool" variants have the same kind of nigh-indestructibility as the latter version for some reason.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Many sources seem to have trouble keeping straight how it works, and often the "turkey-carver" or "sonic cutting tool" variants have the same kind of nigh-indestructibility as the latter version for some reason.

That reason being "Tracking how and under what circumstances melee weapons take damage is a royal pain, so most game systems make them functionally indestructable by not assigning them damage: even AoE attacks that in theory hit everything in the radius equally damage everyone's armor but leave weapons unhurt, and saying they're nigh indestructable both formalizes this and makes it clear you can use them to parry big attacks"

[Killer Cyborg]

Many sources seem to have trouble keeping straight how it works, and often the "turkey-carver" or "sonic cutting tool" variants have the same kind of nigh-indestructibility as the latter version for some reason.

That reason being "Tracking how and under what circumstances melee weapons take damage is a royal pain, so most game systems make them functionally indestructable by not assigning them damage: even AoE attacks that in theory hit everything in the radius equally damage everyone's armor but leave weapons unhurt, and saying they're nigh indestructable both formalizes this and makes it clear you can use them to parry big attacks"

Definitely.
You see it not only in games, though, but in written stories and TV/movies because audiences generally don't want to deal with weapons breaking; they want to see a light saber/vibro-blade battle, not just a light saber cutting a sword/axe/whatever in half then killing somebody.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Many sources seem to have trouble keeping straight how it works, and often the "turkey-carver" or "sonic cutting tool" variants have the same kind of nigh-indestructibility as the latter version for some reason.

That reason being "Tracking how and under what circumstances melee weapons take damage is a royal pain, so most game systems make them functionally indestructable by not assigning them damage: even AoE attacks that in theory hit everything in the radius equally damage everyone's armor but leave weapons unhurt, and saying they're nigh indestructable both formalizes this and makes it clear you can use them to parry big attacks"

Definitely.
You see it not only in games, though, but in written stories and TV/movies because audiences generally don't want to deal with weapons breaking; they want to see a light saber/vibro-blade battle, not just a light saber cutting a sword/axe/whatever in half then killing somebody.

And yet weapons breaking was a major part of historical warfare, and if you read older epics and stories such things happened fairly reguarlly: Bronze is expensive, iron is brittle, spears are mostly wood, and good steel is really hard to make

[Killer Cyborg]

Many sources seem to have trouble keeping straight how it works, and often the "turkey-carver" or "sonic cutting tool" variants have the same kind of nigh-indestructibility as the latter version for some reason.

That reason being "Tracking how and under what circumstances melee weapons take damage is a royal pain, so most game systems make them functionally indestructable by not assigning them damage: even AoE attacks that in theory hit everything in the radius equally damage everyone's armor but leave weapons unhurt, and saying they're nigh indestructable both formalizes this and makes it clear you can use them to parry big attacks"

Definitely.
You see it not only in games, though, but in written stories and TV/movies because audiences generally don't want to deal with weapons breaking; they want to see a light saber/vibro-blade battle, not just a light saber cutting a sword/axe/whatever in half then killing somebody.

And yet weapons breaking was a major part of historical warfare, and if you read older epics and stories such things happened fairly reguarlly: Bronze is expensive, iron is brittle, spears are mostly wood, and good steel is really hard to make

Indeed!
Also, bladed weapons dull, and iron/steel gear rusts.
While I wouldn't want all or most game time to be occupied with that kind of thing, it would be interesting if it were all represented a bit more.
Along with other stuff, like potential charisma penalties after a battle, when the PCs are covered with blood and/or whatever various monsters have in the place of that.

[guardiandashi]

most of the "vibroblade" weapons I have read fall into the electric knife, or the "chainsaw" versions where the "field" either modifies the blade or causes it to move in a way that makes it cut more effectively.

one version would be effectively an electric knife, but most of the vibro versions would be more like a serrated knife that oscillates really fast.
another version is the projected energy field where either the field effectively acts like a chainsaw chain, or a serrated edge and then somehow "cuts or burns through material

[Dustin Fireblade]

Don't believe it was mentioned, but the rocket weapons from South America 1 might be handy. Getting ammo might be more difficult.

[taalismn]

Don't believe it was mentioned, but the rocket weapons from South America 1 might be handy. Getting ammo might be more difficult.

Big honking' gyrojets before Wellington started putting out smaller ramjet rounds.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the Invulnerable would still be impervious, but I like the idea of an acid attack.
Depending on how much spray it takes to inflict that damage, maybe it could be put in a paintball and fired from an airgun.

The main drawback is I really can't find precedent for an acid weapon. I know some creatures have acid attacks, and the Necrol in PW do have a few acid weapons but those are still creatures. But as far as tech, acid attacks are presented as an "improvised" attack of a tool.

Another spitball idea that I've been knocking around for a long time would be to create "vibro-blade bullets". Either by use of disposable vibro-blade generators as part of the bullet (if you can pack explosives into a bullet...) or temporarily imparting the vibro-blade "field" to the bullet as it is fired. Both likely require purpose-built guns (or modification kits for an existing gun), and one would require specialized ammo on top of it so there is some room for a GM to play with the idea. The only major stumbling block is if Vibro-weapons would be subject to Impervious to Energy or Invulnerability.

maybe in aliens unlimited.

[Curbludgeon]

For an non-magical acid gun I'd maybe start with the T'Zee Piranha weapons (DB3pg63), dial back the damage, and change out what can stop continuing damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

most of the "vibroblade" weapons I have read fall into the electric knife, or the "chainsaw" versions where the "field" either modifies the blade or causes it to move in a way that makes it cut more effectively.

one version would be effectively an electric knife, but most of the vibro versions would be more like a serrated knife that oscillates really fast.
another version is the projected energy field where either the field effectively acts like a chainsaw chain, or a serrated edge and then somehow "cuts or burns through material

The general description of Rifts vibro-blades refers to the "high frequency energy field" allowing them to inflict mega-damage, and I'm pretty sure there's a place somewhere that refers again to this field in the context of parrying MD attacks with a vibro blade, stating that the field protects the vibro-blade from taking damage in such a situation. But I can't recall where the latter is.

[ShadowLogan]

@KC
Re: PBC v ItE/Inv
Honestly, I think it's a case of Palladium Editing and slipping in the continuity being focused on the more common stuff and not always considering exotic situations (as in the Nuke vs Vampire).

Re: Vibro-Blades
Honestly, I think it's just going to come down to a GM call in how they have the Vibro-Blade "field" work in terms of damage give/soak.

@Dustin Fireblade
I mentioned them in my initial post.

@Blue_Lion
Aliens Unlimited isn't a book I have, most of my library is Rifts or Robotech (1E/2E).

@Curbludgeon
The T'Zee Piranha weapons are certainly an option for ItE, not sure about Invulnerability. Not sure if I'd consider them a baseline for an Acid weapon, though they are only 1 or 2 powers that use nanomachine warheads IIRC (the other being the Republic of Japan in WB8, but they are a "secret" weapon).

[ShadowLogan]

Found an interesting tidbit for magical enchantment for a projectile weapon: the Defic Power known as "Weaponwright" (D&G pg95). This enchants/reformats a weapon (which can be a technological device) to be more effective against a specific enemy (the cost is only PPE) for x2 damage, but for a bit more PPE for x3. The main drawback is finding someone with Defic Powers to enchant/reformat the weapon.

[RockJock]

Most of this has already been covered, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

Big Bore Magnum from Black Market. It is common enough in NA, and the knockdown(at least against Human sized targets) can be a nice addition.

The Triax Pump Revolver in the second NGR book is a good one as well.
A bit harder to get the gun, but the ammo is findable in NA.

A bit more exotic is the Cyborg Grenade Revolver in New Sovenski. 12 shots, option to do more damage by grenade type, and options for non lethal rounds like smoke and tear gas. No clue how you would get ammo for this in a NA campaign....

You can go more and more exotic from there.

[Borast]

Another spitball idea that I've been knocking around for a long time would be to create "vibro-blade bullets". Either by use of disposable vibro-blade generators as part of the bullet (if you can pack explosives into a bullet...) or temporarily imparting the vibro-blade "field" to the bullet as it is fired. Both likely require purpose-built guns (or modification kits for an existing gun), and one would require specialized ammo on top of it so there is some room for a GM to play with the idea. The only major stumbling block is if Vibro-weapons would be subject to Impervious to Energy or Invulnerability.

I can see that they would be as inaccurate as all get-out too...
After all, if the round is vibrating violently as it flys, it will fail to follow a true ballistic trajectory, and likely start tumbling.
Kinda like a musket...the old joke where muskets were concerned essentially was: "Where's the safest place to stand when a musket is fired?... In front of it." That's why you had a firing line. You fire at the guy straight across the field and immediately in front of you. The guy you hit (if you hit) is four to the right, and in the second rank.
If it is surrounded by a "chainsaw" field, the energy is likely going to cause the round to be pushed or pulled off target. For best effect, you'd have to have it on a contact trigger, and overload on activation. The drawback would be a 50/50 chance of the field causing the round to deflect off a slanted surface...in otherwise, you'd have to hit an essentially perpendicular surface.

Versus ItE...technically the Naruni plasma weapons would still do damage, since they are converting the contents of the cartrige to plasma, which is a semi-sold form of energy. Call it half kinetic, half energy (heat). That I can think of, they are the only real plasma weapons in the game. The rest are just "flamethrowers." (Unfortunately, that would be a home brew ruling.)

In any case, remember, whether invulnerable or ItE, overwhelming effect would still kill. (Black letter in HU under Invulnerability...a fall from orbit would technically kill the character due to friction, or the impact...although, given that something de-orbiting still has to obey terminal velocity...you're technically taking the same impact damage from 100,000 metres as from 30 metres.)

[Blue_Lion]

Most of this has already been covered, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

Big Bore Magnum from Black Market. It is common enough in NA, and the knockdown(at least against Human sized targets) can be a nice addition.

The Triax Pump Revolver in the second NGR book is a good one as well.
A bit harder to get the gun, but the ammo is findable in NA.

A bit more exotic is the Cyborg Grenade Revolver in New Sovenski. 12 shots, option to do more damage by grenade type, and options for non lethal rounds like smoke and tear gas. No clue how you would get ammo for this in a NA campaign....

You can go more and more exotic from there.

Well currently most armies around the world use the same general size for grenade launcher so they may be NA compatible rounds.

As the weapon in question most likely uses modern 40mm grenades size go talk to golden age armory.

[RockJock]

BL, in my head these were more like 12 gauge shotgun shells, say 16-20mm vs 40mm, but I can buy the standardized sizes. There are several mentions of various ballistic guns/grenade launchers using 12 gauge shells, Triax Pump Rounds, grenades etc., not all mention using all the choices, but there is at least some overlap.

[Shorty Lickens]

those rocket assisted bullets from a normal gun.
I cant recall where I saw it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

those rocket assisted bullets from a normal gun.
I cant recall where I saw it.

Ramjet. Rifts Mercenaries.