Psychics and use of Mind Bond

[darthauthor]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

[Library Ogre]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

I tend towards "no", partially coming from a BTS background.

In BTS, psychic powers aren't just skills you have learned... they are bought and paid for with PPE, which, to me, makes them somewhat beyond a skill and more part of the person... it's akin to asking if Mind Bond will let me have nightvision if I mind bond an elf.

Not something I feel strongly about, but that's my take.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

No. Psionics are not skills.

[darthauthor]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

No. Psionics are not skills.

What if it was invocation spells?

If the psychic who used mind bond successfully on a magic user would they be able to cast one of their spells (provided the psychic had the PPE requirement)?

[Library Ogre]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

No. Psionics are not skills.

What if it was invocation spells?

If the psychic who used mind bond successfully on a magic user would they be able to cast one of their spells (provided the psychic had the PPE requirement)?

My take on this is "Yes, if the psychic knows how to use magic."

A mystic, for example, who binds with a wizard, can use the wizard spells, because the mystic knows how to cast spells. A mind mage, however, does not know how to cast spells, and so cannot use the knowledge that way.

(He might, though, steal the wizards spells, and insert them into a friend's mind using Insert Memory; see Mysteries of Magic, page 55 & 56; it goes into this, at least with regards to spellcasting.)

[darthauthor]

First, I will say thanks for the reply.

2nd. I agree that mind bonding with another does not give them abilities based on biology, bionics, or supernatural powers. So, for example, mind bonding with a Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker would not give them a greater sense of smell or the ability to be a PPE vampire or either of their natural ISP-less ability to sense the supernatural and PPE. The position made "here" is that psionics are not skills. To which I will reply, they don't have the label of skills.

I re-read the description of Mind Bond again and again. Put simply, you know the one you Mind Bonded with. You know what they know. You have their mind. NOT their body. So if they know magic you know that same magic but you don't have their PPE. If you get nick picky, let us say you bond with a singer, so you know how to sing the songs they sing but when you do it sounds like you and not them. You don't get their voice. You get their proficiency.

Psychic character classes gain new psionics of choice as they level up and the player gets to choose them. In my mind, it means they learn psionics that are new to them. The description of the Mind Melter is that they don't have as many OCC and OCC related skills because they spent their time learning and practicing their psionics.

Regardless of whether a Mind Melter or such gets to use the psionics of another they bonded with they would know the one they bonded with. So they would have the memories of the person's psionics and practice using them and the times they did. I agree with you that it would NOT give anyone gills to breath water, wings to fly, a nose that can track by scent or eyes that can see in the dark. And that even if psionics, new to the one doing the Mind Bond, could be temporarily acquired, would not give them more ISP.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you consider psionics something that an OCC (or psychic character class) learns. Classes learn "New" OCC related skill and secondary skills as they level up. The question in my mind is, "Do Psychic Character Classes 'LEARN' the new psionics the character picks when they level up?

So, what do you think?

[ShadowLogan]

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

No.

The CK-Psi-Sword especially is a no. The text flat out states "The creation of the Psi-Sword is a very personal thing and requires years of training, study, and conviction" (RUE pg64, likely SoT4 and RMB). Because it is a "very personal thing" and "conviction" it cannot be duplicated via Mind Bond. It is also not strictly a psionic weapon IMHO either (it isn't strictly using ISP, which is a good sign it isn't a psionic power or could be considered a psionic power). Due to the nature of the power, I could see a CK's ability to manifest one disrupted (as their mind is a bit of jumble w/another person's memories inside their head disrupting their conviction).

I do not think you can "learn" Psionic Powers or Magic in this way. It is true that both are generally similar to "skills", but the process IMHO is "personal" for each individual in how they are able to perform key aspects of it and it isn't as simple as dropping the memories into place.

It's also worth noting you only get the knowledge for 3d4hrs, and after that it drops down to 15% chance for a month. Which really makes it unreliable for use.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

No. Psionics are not skills.

What if it was invocation spells?

If the psychic who used mind bond successfully on a magic user would they be able to cast one of their spells (provided the psychic had the PPE requirement)?

No. Invocation spells are also not skills.

[thorr-kan]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

No. Psionics are not skills.

What if it was invocation spells?

If the psychic who used mind bond successfully on a magic user would they be able to cast one of their spells (provided the psychic had the PPE requirement)?

No. Invocation spells are also not skills.

And yet, psionics can be bought with skill (Acolyte OCC, Through the Glass Darkly), and so can invocations (Sorcerous Proficiencies, Through the Glass Darkly). Additionally, Cyber-Knight Training, Rifts Ultimate Edition, installs psionic abilities through training. For real fun, the Principles of Magic skill (TtGD, again) exists, which allows one to "utter incantations correctly." Now, you can say those are setting-specific, and you'd be right. They might not apply to all games.

But the precedent exists.

Maybe your Mind Bonded psychic HAS learned new psionics or spellcasting. He/She tries to use them, and everything goes perfectly well. Even outside observers agree that should have worked. But it doesn't.

I think psionic abilities and magical abilities can be learned, in-game, with skills. But doing so is a "state-change" for the character. It's tied inexorably to who they are. They've *changed* on a fundamental level. The Mind Bondend psychic understands this, but *has not changed.*

But they could. It's an opportunity to introduce new things for the character, an excuse if you will.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

No. Psionics are not skills.

What if it was invocation spells?

If the psychic who used mind bond successfully on a magic user would they be able to cast one of their spells (provided the psychic had the PPE requirement)?

No. Invocation spells are also not skills.

And yet, psionics can be bought with skill (Acolyte OCC, Through the Glass Darkly), and so can invocations (Sorcerous Proficiencies, Through the Glass Darkly). Additionally, Cyber-Knight Training, Rifts Ultimate Edition, installs psionic abilities through training. For real fun, the Principles of Magic skill (TtGD, again) exists, which allows one to "utter incantations correctly." Now, you can say those are setting-specific, and you'd be right. They might not apply to all games.

But the precedent exists.

Maybe your Mind Bonded psychic HAS learned new psionics or spellcasting. He/She tries to use them, and everything goes perfectly well. Even outside observers agree that should have worked. But it doesn't.

I think psionic abilities and magical abilities can be learned, in-game, with skills. But doing so is a "state-change" for the character. It's tied inexorably to who they are. They've *changed* on a fundamental level. The Mind Bondend psychic understands this, but *has not changed.*

But they could. It's an opportunity to introduce new things for the character, an excuse if you will.

Certain classes being able to trade skills for class features does not make those class features skills.

If it did, every class could buy psionics with skills, not just acolytes.

That in certain cases you can exchange one character resource for another does not mean they are the same.

And it doesn't mean you can pick them up with Mind Bond.

[darthauthor]

Would the use of mind bond temporarily grant the psychic special abilities from OCC adventurer classes?

For example, the Wilderness Scout's abilities cross country pacing or map making?

The Vagabounds "Eyeball a Fella" skill?

The Rogue Scientist's ability to "Analyze?"

The Rogue Scholars ability to "Recognize Authenticity"?

That sort of thing?

Also, could they speak Elemental if they bonded with a Warlock or Fusionist?

[thorr-kan]

I think you can also trade chi-powers for extra skills or something along those lines in Ninjas and Superspies?

One Martial Art Power for one N&SS Skill Program, except the Physical Skill Program. Another equivalency I had forgotten.

Isn't that only rolled against when first teaching yourself a new spell, like if you're inventing a new one, creating a variant on an existing one, learning it from a teacher, extrapolating it from a tome, etc?

Imagine if a % roll was needed every time you cast a spell that'd be hilarious and GURPSy

Not by the skill description. Though the description is always expanded for the various magic OCCs. (That's not how GURPS works, at all...)

Certain classes being able to trade skills for class features does not make those class features skills.

If it did, every class could buy psionics with skills, not just acolytes.

It is a precedent for one skill being equal to one non-Super psionic power.

[Prysus]

I re-read the description of Mind Bond again and again. Put simply, you know the one you Mind Bonded with. You know what they know. You have their mind. NOT their body. So if they know magic you know that same magic but you don't have their PPE. If you get nick picky, let us say you bond with a singer, so you know how to sing the songs they sing but when you do it sounds like you and not them. You don't get their voice. You get their proficiency.
[snip]
I guess it comes down to whether or not you consider psionics something that an OCC (or psychic character class) learns. Classes learn "New" OCC related skill and secondary skills as they level up. The question in my mind is, "Do Psychic Character Classes 'LEARN' the new psionics the character picks when they level up?

Greetings and Salutations. While there is some truth to the statements, much of what's missing is the mentally of these actions.

Magic, for example, requires belief. Not just belief that magic exists, but "100% conviction" in its power, your ability to control it, and a few other things. So, let's take a look at a different class. Let's say you Mind Bond with a Priest of Light (or other type of priestly class). If you worship one god and the person you Mind Bond with worships a different god, do you instantly convert to their god? Do you instantly gain all their priestly powers? Having their knowledge and having their belief system are not the same thing. You may understand magic, you may know the words to say to cast a spell, but that doesn't mean you can cast magic because knowledge and belief are not the same thing. So, theoretically, a character who was already studying to be a magic user might be able to cast spells. Of course, this would be the exception, not the rule. For most, if they had such belief and conviction in magic already, then they'd already be a magic user.

As for psionics, let me ask a different question, can a Mind Mage/Mind Melter spend extra skills to pick up extra psionics as they level up? The answer, by the rules, is no. Yes, psionics take time and training to properly develop. We use to see this with Major Psionics, and we see this in a variety of other psychic classes and writing. However, training/skill, in and of itself, is not enough. A non-psychic can't spend skills to become psychic, a minor psychic can't spend more skills to be a major psychic, and even Mind Mages/Melters cannot spend skills to learn more psionics. Why? Potential. Psychic Potential is something is born with. It can be cultivated and shaped, but that potential doesn't change.

So let's look at the Mind Mage/Melter, who is supposed to have more potential than any other class (at least per the main books). Why can't they spend skills to learn more psionics? Maybe someone would have a different theory, but for me it would be the potential. With experience they may further expand that potential (or unlock more of the potential already there), which allows them to learn more as they level up. So, let's think of this like a human body (instead of an other worldly psychic ability which is harder for many to grasp). Some people will be able to lift more than others. With time and training, you can strengthen your muscles. However, you can only develop so much in a limited time, and no matter how much you train you'll always have some built-in limits. Mind Bond with someone who has the skill Body Building and you don't get a P.S. increase. So Mind Bond someone with different psionics is nice, but it hasn't really practiced your psychic muscle (so to speak).

I'll expand on this further below ...

And yet, psionics can be bought with skill (Acolyte OCC, Through the Glass Darkly), and so can invocations (Sorcerous Proficiencies, Through the Glass Darkly). Additionally, Cyber-Knight Training, Rifts Ultimate Edition, installs psionic abilities through training. For real fun, the Principles of Magic skill (TtGD, again) exists, which allows one to "utter incantations correctly." Now, you can say those are setting-specific, and you'd be right. They might not apply to all games.

An Acolyte, who is already psychic, can spend skills to develop their psionic potential. At level 1, they can spend up to 6 skills to develop an equal amount of minor psioincs. As they level up, they may spend additional skills for additional psionics. Why a cap at 6 psionics though? Simply spending skills is not enough. The character has a cap to their current psychic potential. Much like a master psychic, as they level up their potential further expands, allowing them to spend more skills. However, much like the classic version of the Major Psychic (random roll during Character Creation), psionics are NOT the skills, but the time the character spends to develop that potential. Basically, instead of spending time to learn a skill, they've been spending that time developing their psionics.

So, theoretically, if a character had untapped psychic potential, the character might be able to gain the use of a minor psionic or two during the Mind Mond. Keep in mind, this type of character would be the rare exception. Any character who already developed their potential (basically, anyone with psionics already), their current potential would be capped, and unable to learn more at this time.

Anyways, that's just my take on the situation. Hopefully some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[darthauthor]

Really brilliant insight Champion Prysus.

"Psionics are NOT the skills, but the time the character spends to develop that potential. Basically, instead of spending time to learn a skill, they've been spending that time developing their psionics."

I get it at different levels of understanding now.
A P.C.C. (psychic character class) can Mind Bond with another character who has the Body Building skill. If they did, they would NOT get any increase to the Physical Strength or S.D.C.

I agree.

Mind Bond shares the skills, so the memories of experiences and practice, not the physical changes that came from the practise of those skills.

Psionics powers are the result of the physical changes that developed after the psychic has put in the time practicing them.

As you write, "Basically, instead of spending time to learn a skill, they've been spending that time developing their psionics." So the psychic powers one does NOT already have they could not use any more than if they gained the Body Building skill would not be granted to the Mind Bonding psychic extra strength. The psychic has to put the work in.

I believe it would however, open the mind of the psychic to the knowledge of the psychic power and how to learn/practice for it to have it after they level up.

The same with innvocation spells.

What about special abilities such as, "Eye ball a Fella" or "Cartagraphy?"

[Prysus]

What about special abilities such as, "Eye ball a Fella" or "Cartagraphy?"

Greetings and Salutations. Cartography (at least the version I looked at) states it can be taken as a Technical skill for the cost of 2 O.C.C. Related skills, so I'd say yes. Eye Ball a Fella ... I'd probably also say yes, but opinions may vary.

Basically I have to ask myself: Is it purely knowledge based, or is there something else to it?

So, something like the Rogue Scholars ability to storytell might not be something you can replicate perfectly. As an example, if I was able to Mind Bond with an inventor (or famous writer, etc.), I might be able to understand how a machine goes together and I may be able to replicate (or take apart) something they already made, but I don't think I could make something new. I don't have the talent, even if I have the knowledge.

Now, going back to Eye Ball a Fella ... How does it work? I get the mechanic, but does the experience of the Vagabond give them insight into other people through observed evidence (more Sherlock Holmes), or does the person have more of an intuition? I can see an argument either way.

As a game designer, I think I like the idea of each O.C.C. having their own talents, and not just letting the psychic replicate them. With that said, if you ask me how Eye Ball a Fella works, I'd probably say it's noticing things like the way someone pronounced a certain word indicates education, and other observable details. As such, I'd probably say the psychic can use the ability.

Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think you can also trade chi-powers for extra skills or something along those lines in Ninjas and Superspies?

One Martial Art Power for one N&SS Skill Program, except the Physical Skill Program. Another equivalency I had forgotten.

Isn't that only rolled against when first teaching yourself a new spell, like if you're inventing a new one, creating a variant on an existing one, learning it from a teacher, extrapolating it from a tome, etc?

Imagine if a % roll was needed every time you cast a spell that'd be hilarious and GURPSy

Not by the skill description. Though the description is always expanded for the various magic OCCs. (That's not how GURPS works, at all...)

Certain classes being able to trade skills for class features does not make those class features skills.

If it did, every class could buy psionics with skills, not just acolytes.

It is a precedent for one skill being equal to one non-Super psionic power.

It's a class feature for one specific class that does not establish equality. Acolytes can choose to take some additional psionics in place of skills. This does not make them skills, nor equate them to each-other.

[killgore444]

If a psychic uses mind bond on another psychic will they be able to use the psionic power known the the psychic on who they have bonded?

For example. if a Mind Melter bonded with a Cyber Knight would they be able to create a Psi-Shield and Psi Sword if they did not already have that Super Psionic power?

Yes. I am of the opinion that psi powers are just skills that are restricted to certain OCCs. If you are a member of said OCC, then you get the 'Skill' in question.
He'd have to be third level though since he's not actually a cyber-knight. And any OCC/PCC would actually have to be able to learn Psi-Sword as part of their normal class abilities. Likewise, he wouldn't be able to use the special abilities/skills of, say the burster, since those are restricted to only Bursters, nor would the burster gain the ability to use Psi-sword (remember, mind-meld works both ways) but he would gain all the powers from categories he was allowed to learn.
Minor psychics would be restricted to learning what powers they had as options as well.

My take on this is "Yes, if the psychic knows how to use magic."

A mystic, for example, who binds with a wizard, can use the wizard spells, because the mystic knows how to cast spells. A mind mage, however, does not know how to cast spells, and so cannot use the knowledge that way.

(He might, though, steal the wizards spells, and insert them into a friend's mind using Insert Memory; see Mysteries of Magic, page 55 & 56; it goes into this, at least with regards to spellcasting.)

Not a Mystic.
They have as part of their OCC a restriction preventing them from learning additional magic. The LLW or Shifter who he merged with however, does not, and would gain all of said Mystics spell knowledge (at least for a while) since they have unrestricted access to learning new magic.

But then again, as a GM, I allow all psychics to spend skills learning new powers as I allow a spell caster to spend skills on extra spells and OCC skills on sorcerous proficiencies fro TtGD and Rifter.