Petrification Spell Details

[darthauthor]

So I have a magic user who wants to use the petrification spell

If successful, they want to disarm their victim, shackle them or carry them to a prison cell. Then convert them back to flesh the next day.

Questions are:

1. Does Petrification Spell "just" turn the victims flesh to stone? Leaving all their weapons, armor, and goodies up for grabs.

2. If they drop or hit the petrified victim and a finger or arms breaks off, can they put him back together with "Mend Stone?"

3. Does the statue have an aura?
Specifically, what will it be? Same as the character or just solid stone.
Are they detectable using detect psionics?
Sense Magic?
Sense PPE?
Sense Evil?
Presense Sense?
Telepathy/Empathy?
Object Reading?
Does Remote Viewing show the psychic their statue?
Detect Concealment spell?
Can the petrified astrally project?
Are they aware of what anyone says around them? Or taps on them, like morse code?
Are bionics/cybernetic still attached (in stone mode)?
IF removed and restored to flesh are they in pain/dead?
As an alternative method of healing or body alteration could a Stone Mage or Earth Warlock alter their phycial features (change their face, make them thinner, taller, hair cut, bearrd trim)?
In the extreme, can an Earth Warlock add clay shaped as the hand (or other body part using art/whittling/sculpting, etc) they lost, turn it to stone (maybe a Stone Mage alters it from here) and then restore the entire figure to flesh so that the Ley Line Walker who lost his hand in Tolkeen war prison camp?

My imagination is running wild with the possibilities because if magic can do this, Magic Rocks!

[darthauthor]

Me attempting to answer my own post:

1. Does Petrification Spell "just" turn the victims flesh to stone?

It "ONLY" changes living organic matter leaving clothes, boots, armor, weapons, TW items, equipment, etc NOT stone.

IF it worked that way then a magic user could turn ANYTHING into stone.

2. If they drop or hit the petrified victim and a finger or arms breaks off, can they put him back together with "Mend Stone?"

YES. Broken stone can be mended magically, no problem. Conventional construction techniques, I'd say no but its the GM's call. They should consider the amount of damage to the original pieces. Of course, this means robots can not be turned to stone along with Atlanteans.

3. Does the statue have an aura?

Everything has an aura, so yes, the statue has an aura. Nothing in the spell Petrification suggest the stone is magical so it ought to have the aura one would expect of stone or a stone statue.

4. Are they detectable using detect psionics?

Stone is not psionic so NO.

5. Sense Magic.

Stone is not magical so NO.
I'd say the GM should decide if the Sense Magic spell or Lore: Magic could determine if, by studying a statue if it was once a living being.

6. Senes PPE

Living things generate PPE. Stone is not alive so it has no PPE.

7. Empathy, Presense Sense, Sense Evil, Telepathy.

A stone statue feels nothig, is not a supernatural or evil being, and has no thoughts. These means will detect nothing about a statue.

8. Object Reading?

I'd say YES. A psychic Object Reading the statue may see the moment they were petrified. While the possessions of the petrified may reveal they state as well.

9. Remote Viewing - show their statue.

10. Detect Concealment - reveals nothing but the stone statue that it is.

11. Can the petrified astrally project?

Two (2) parts to this:
(A) if stoned they cannot meditate to astral project.
(B) IF they were astral projecting when they were petrified, the GM may rule that they are either stuck astrally and will "die" since they can't get back to their body. The character might go into the astral domain where they can last longer as a temporary escape though. They need friends to help them orchastrate a new body to inhabit or have their original one transformed back into flesh.

12. Are they aware of what anyone says around them?

No awareness while being a ordinary stone statue so no perception or memories.

13. Are bionics/cybernetic still attached (in stone mode)?

NO but they are still attached like boots and clothes. To remove them would require great skill if they did NOT want to brake stone. If removed and the petrofied person is restored to flesh, they would lose the benefits of their bionics but not bleed out or be in pain unless their stone was damaged and went unmended. They would not die unless the they needed the bionics to live.

14. As an alternative method of healing or body alteration could a Stone Mage or Earth Warlock alter their phycial features (change their face, make them thinner, taller, hair cut, bearrd trim)?

YES. With limitations and conditions, an Earth Warlock's spells and/or Stone Mage could use the petrofied person's original stone and reshape it and move it around. I think of it as somewhat like a shapeshifter or Necromancer. However, once the changes have been made the changes stay permanently or until magically changed back.

I'd allow a magic user to restore missing fingers and limbs and holes in their body but this would not cure disease, poison, cancer, etc.

What if the head was cut off? It can be put back on.

What if the head was shattered? If the pieces can be collect and mended back together, then yes. If not, NO!

The head has to be the original. If not the GM decides if he's dead or has no memories of their life before they were petrofied. Maybe, roll for coma recovery

Bonus Answers to Questions NOT asked:

Can the stone statue of the petrofied character be animated?
Yes.

If restored to flesh would this give the spell caster control over the character? NO. It frees them.

Can it be worked on to be made into a Stone Golem?
Yes. However, if restored to flesh and their eyes have not be made whole again they would be blind. Heart restored too or they are having a stroke.
Also, GM's permission, changing a character from a stone statue to a stone Golem may be considered the same as level eight spell Transference of Essence & Intellect for the character.

[Prysus]

So I have a magic user who wants to use the petrification spell

If successful, they want to disarm their victim, shackle them or carry them to a prison cell. Then convert them back to flesh the next day.

Greetings and Salutations. You summoned me here, so I'll do my best to answer these with my best opinion. With that said, most of these will be judgment calls.

Questions are:

1. Does Petrification Spell "just" turn the victims flesh to stone? Leaving all their weapons, armor, and goodies up for grabs.

As a G.M., I'd say everything they're wearing will be turned to stone as well. This includes clothes, armor, weapons, and backpack. If it's not on them though, it won't be affected. Magical Items might get a Saving Throw (or G.M. Fiat be safe, depending on).

Why? First, classic visuals of people turning to stone tends to include things like their clothes. Beyond that (and more importantly for me), I don't want to get into the situations of someone turning to Flesh having to walk around naked because someone stole their gear and/or so much time has passed their clothes have worn away over time. I've had stories with things like people being returned to flesh after thousands of years. I prefer my games to be PG-13 (or even more kid friendly), so keeping people with their clothes on is my preference. Also, by making this ruling, it avoids other questions like bionics and other factors and where do you draw the line?

The logic of why clothes would also turn to stone? The magic will ultimately affect the character's aura. The items they're holding are contained within that aura. I use this aura premise for things as well, such as Saving Throws for Telekinesis (not an official thing for note, but I do NOT allow Telekinesis to work automatically and with no ability to resist against living people ... and by extension what they're wearing, because that would be just a quick work around).

Now why would I give a possible exception to magic items? Well, magic items can already fall under different rules sometimes. But, more importantly, this could be a way to prevent the character carrying the MacGuffin to stop the evil overlord's death ray from being petrified and the party just lost the way to save the day because ... well, one person turned to stone, and they were carrying the essential item. Now, I probably wouldn't actually have a story set up in quite that way, but I try to think of stuff like that the best I can and work in fail safes.

2. If they drop or hit the petrified victim and a finger or arms breaks off, can they put him back together with "Mend Stone?"

Interesting question. I'd say yes. While Petrified the person is effectively stone, and the Mend Stone can repair it without any trace of damage. I like this idea and am all for it.

3. Does the statue have an aura?
Specifically, what will it be? Same as the character or just solid stone.

My gut instinct response: The character will read as stone, but I'd be willing to say the stone would register an unusual aberration.

However, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that maybe the character's aura would still be the same, but read an usual aberration. Because as I think about the questions and the answers to the various questions, I suppose my thoughts are the person is still there, just in an altered state. However, the book mentions the person is "in stasis" and that you can destroy the "life essence inside." My thinking now is that this is closer to a cryogenic sleep. The person is unaware of anything going on and can be killed, but still technically there. As such, with further thought, I'd say the person would register their normal aura, only with an unusual aberration added on.

Are they detectable using detect psionics?

Perhaps, depending on the psionic. But, in most cases, no.

Sense Magic?
Sense PPE?
Sense Evil?
Presense Sense?
Telepathy/Empathy?

In most of these cases, I'd say no. Sense Evil and Presence Sense, for instance, usually only pick-up Supernatural Entities and Creatures of Magic, but if the Petrified individual fell into one of these categories ... maybe?

For things like Telepathy and Empathy though, the person is in stasis and unaware of anything. Also, they're stone. So I'm going to say no brain activity. However, their "essence" is still there. So, with that in mind, if you Petrified a demon, for instance, then that essence would still be there. So something like Sense Evil I suppose would still detect it. Of course, if we're using the updated rules of supernatural beings going back to their native dimension when slain ... this might count as being killed. I'd have to give that one some thought, and probably depends on the story I want to tell.

Note: I don't actually know the Sense P.P.E. power, so I can't comment on those specifics.

Object Reading?
Does Remote Viewing show the psychic their statue?

I'd say yes to both of these working. Object Read would of course require a successful check (requires % rolls), and if you're reading the stone or something else they owned. But, ultimately, I'd say it has the potential with just the details changing.

Detect Concealment spell?

There's nothing being concealed here. This just isn't a relevant spell to the situation. Note: I also don't think it would reveal a Changeling or any other type of shape changer.

Can the petrified astrally project?
Are they aware of what anyone says around them? Or taps on them, like morse code?

Palladium Fantasy, Second Edition; page 232: "A character who becomes petrified is placed in stasis and remembers nothing of the time he was turned to stone ..."

So, if they're in stasis, then they cannot astral project. Also, as they're in stasis and will remember nothing, then I'd say they're unaware of anything going on around them. This one feels clear cut from what's written in the book.

Are bionics/cybernetic still attached (in stone mode)?
IF removed and restored to flesh are they in pain/dead?

I'd say yes, and see my first response to how it affects clothing and equipment as well.

As an alternative method of healing or body alteration could a Stone Mage or Earth Warlock alter their phycial features (change their face, make them thinner, taller, hair cut, bearrd trim)?
In the extreme, can an Earth Warlock add clay shaped as the hand (or other body part using art/whittling/sculpting, etc) they lost, turn it to stone (maybe a Stone Mage alters it from here) and then restore the entire figure to flesh so that the Ley Line Walker who lost his hand in Tolkeen war prison camp?

I find this idea interesting, but I'd go with a hard no. Well, technically, I guess you could cut their hair or beard without too much trouble. Anyways, explanation for my answer.

First, Stone to Flesh has 2 applications. 1: Turn stone to flesh. 2: Restore someone who has been petrified. So when using the second application, you're "restoring" the person, and not just turning stone into a flesh (which is ultimately different, and important).

Second, we're told that if the statue had a limb broken, then it will still be missing and require medical attention. Now, I already admitted to allowing Mend Stone to be a work around, but this does provide some indications to me. Not only is the person being restored, the broken limb is likely bleeding (and why the person needs medical attention). So, if you go into a coma, can I cut parts of your stomach off to make you thinner without harm or will you just start bleeding has I hack parts of your body off?

With the above two thoughts in mind, I'll apply this logic to the mage who lost a limb during the war. We petrify him. We then craft a new stone limb and attach it to the statue. We then cast Stone to Flesh to restore the person. The person is restored, a nice stone carving of a limb likely falls to the floor, and there may be the need for medical attention (depending if part of the mage had to be modified to fit the new stone arm while in statue form). Maybe not the most ideal answer but ... well, not everything has a simple solution, and while magic is powerful it can't always just undo consequences of actions.

Hopefully some of that helped. I tried to stay fairly consistent in my logic, and provide my thought process (which sometimes may come off as rambling). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Library Ogre]

I am basing this off the Earth Warlock spell in Palladium Fantasy... the Rifts Book of Magic version has worse formatting, but appears pretty much the same.

1. Does Petrification Spell "just" turn the victims flesh to stone? Leaving all their weapons, armor, and goodies up for grabs.

IMO, it turns everything within the character's aura to stone... that will include most equipment and magical weapons, but really powerful stuff, like rune weapons, will probably be unaffected.

2. If they drop or hit the petrified victim and a finger or arms breaks off, can they put him back together with "Mend Stone?"

In the extreme, can an Earth Warlock add clay shaped as the hand (or other body part using art/whittling/sculpting, etc) they lost, turn it to stone (maybe a Stone Mage alters it from here) and then restore the entire figure to flesh so that the Ley Line Walker who lost his hand in Tolkeen war prison camp?

Second is relevant, so added out of sequence.

IMO, yes. If you take a look at the Warlock spell Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals, you'll see that you can create flesh-golem like creatures with that spell, plus a couple others. You don't have to sculpt them such that they have bones and muscles and organs... you create a clay creature, cast a few spells on them, and you have a living creature. The magic takes care of the rest.

Note that if you create a stone body from regular stone, then turn it to flesh and use breath of life, it will be alive, but it won't have a mind. Good for creating a body for something to possess, or, in Rifts, a Haban II-like cyborg but you need some way to give the corpse a mind.

3. Does the statue have an aura?
Specifically, what will it be? Same as the character or just solid stone.
Are they detectable using detect psionics?
Sense Magic?
Sense PPE?
Sense Evil?
Presense Sense?
Telepathy/Empathy?
Object Reading?
Does Remote Viewing show the psychic their statue?
Detect Concealment spell?
Can the petrified astrally project?
Are they aware of what anyone says around them? Or taps on them, like morse code?

No. The spell (at least, in PF) states that they are placed in stasis; they have no mental or physical actions possible, they are completely unaware of the passage of time, or anything that happens around them. They would have an aura, but it would be of stone. Object Read would tell you what they are, Clairvoyance might give you flashes, but those don't operate on the mind of petrified, just on reality.

Are bionics/cybernetic still attached (in stone mode)?
IF removed and restored to flesh are they in pain/dead?

As they are part of the character and within their aura, yes, the cybernetics, bionics, even symbiotes turn to stone.

As an alternative method of healing or body alteration could a Stone Mage or Earth Warlock alter their phycial features (change their face, make them thinner, taller, hair cut, bearrd trim)?
In the extreme, can an Earth Warlock add clay shaped as the hand (or other body part using art/whittling/sculpting, etc) they lost, turn it to stone (maybe a Stone Mage alters it from here) and then restore the entire figure to flesh so that the Ley Line Walker who lost his hand in Tolkeen war prison camp?

Yes, but I would say they would have some limits. I would say that making good ones would require some sort of Art skill... and pretty advanced, since everyone knows that doing hands is hard. Exactly what those limits might be, I am not positive, but "I'll know it when I see it." However, I would say a simple replacement (a Stone Master adding some rock and shaping it into a regular hand) wouldn't require near as much work as giving him claws. For giving them wings (which lots of folks want to do, I am sure), I would not have the wings allow flight... some of monster flight abilities are magic, since it allows them to fly when their bodies should not be able to (i.e. wings can't generate the lift to keep a body that heavy up). A petrified then restored creation would not have that.

[darthauthor]

Thank you for your feedback and ideas.

We seem to agree on most of these, like astral projection and and mending the stone of broken limbs back onto the victims statue.

I can see some of your points, like how the stone of the statue of a petrified person would have an aberration to their aura. Re-reading the spell it does say the statue contains the life essence of the person and if destoyed their essence is destoyed with it.

Our biggest differences of opinion are in whether or not the persons items are turned to stone as well. Also, the healing application of turn people to stone.

I admit, its a game. I imagine the authors never imagine people like us would debate things like these and would leave it up to us to decide for ourselves and the people we play with if we made a "fair" ruling.

In the section on items turning to stone also, you wrote, "where do you draw the line?"
My intent was, good guys (or villians) turn their advisaries to stone. Why? To end combat and capture them alive. To continue the game without fighting or killing them (plus they might need information from them they can't get from asking a statue) so they can turn them back to ask them questions and bring them to justice. NOT humiliate them like a jerk.
Good guys or bad guys, they don't want the guys they capture to be armed with guns and armor and such.
Where do you draw the line?
One of the expectations of us playing a game is FUN. Another is a level of maturity not to be a jerk in or out of game.

Most players it takes a long time (7th level ) to get the petrification spell. I imagine those who have it would use it as often as it is advantagous. Why not? Isn't that the point of having magic spells?
I feel that just because movies have the characters clothes turn to stone along with the character doesn't mean it has to be that way in our games. For the filming of a movie the directer probably found it was easier for the audience to see the character was petrifed if their whole being was stone. That and it looked like a cheesy cheap manikin if they left clothes on a manikin.
The point of the spells use was never to make the characters naked. The players intent is to disarm the bad guy without kill. That's being a goodie two shoes, not a jerk.
Besides, isn't it realistic, I mean if you are playing a cop and you make an arrest, your going to search the guy you arrested for weapons. Later on, in jail or prison or such, the prisoner will probably be strip searched for concealed weapons, lock picks, etc. It is not really mentioned beyond we search them for "stuff." We NEVER leave them naked.
Its never about embarressing anyone or seeing them naked.

A lot of my players are MD beings (in battle at least, due to spells) when the damage goes over their Armor of Ithon and/or body armor it then damages them. We never get hung up on how their clothes are. Its not mentioned because we know "we don't go there." It's not why we play.
If it had to come up, I'd say its like the Incredible Hulks and how his pants always stay on and intact.

From my point of view, I'm going to rule that the petrification spell only changes living organic material. Although I like your aura idea, I want the characters to have the ability to make their opponents unconscious and disarm them without violence or killing anyone. The same as a Pyschics use of Biomanipulation to paralyize someone or using a spell like sleep or cloud of slumber or the use of a neuro-mace to knock a guy out.

I draw the line at being a jerk.

Players (especially magic users) need to feel they can get creative and imaginative with their powers or the game gets boring. And let's face it, the true enemy of every GM and player is boredom.
I've messed up on details and rules when it came to the game as long as I wan't boring and the players felt like they had a fair chance.

The second matter about using stone magic for healing.
Basically, its an 7th level healing spell. The intent is for the player to have a chance at restoring a limb. In my mind this is the same result of allowing Cyber Doc attaching a bionic limb or Bio-system. Except its not bionic so they don't have to run back to the city to buy one or wait for the character to heal and recover. I like my characters having the choice to DIY skill and magic solutions; any excuse for them to use their non-combat skills to roleplay and build/invent things.

I could be worng but Petrification only appears as a 7th level spell for an Earth Warlock. So its RARE! So is bringing people back from the dead to the living. An enemy being dead never stopped my players from going through their pockets and taking their possessions. The way I see it, the characters could defend themselves. Kill their enemy. Search them and remove everything but the clothes. Take the dead body to a jail cell and go through a lot of PPE and the right spells (restore limb, etc) to bring the dead body back to life, make them whole again and the results are the same. Have a body doc or fleshscupter work on them to change their appearance.
One use of the petrification spell and one use of stone to flesh is just fewer steps. Ops, I skipped the part about with the stone mage or Earth Warlock does the stone to clay molds it and turns it back to stone thing but you get the idea.

And I feel like I "get" your ideas. I want to read new ideas. Smarter ideas then mine. That is the point of posting and sharing. My ideas are not the only tool in the shed or even the sharpest but that's the great thing about forums like this. It lets use share our tools. Test them. In the end, we leave enlighted and our games get to run with the best ideas even if they are not our own.

Very Respectfully,

[Library Ogre]

I admit, its a game. I imagine the authors never imagine people like us would debate things like these and would leave it up to us to decide for ourselves and the people we play with if we made a "fair" ruling.

Palladium books, in general, are not closely written.

From my point of view, I'm going to rule that the petrification spell only changes living organic material. Although I like your aura idea, I want the characters to have the ability to make their opponents unconscious and disarm them without violence or killing anyone. The same as a Pyschics use of Biomanipulation to paralyize someone or using a spell like sleep or cloud of slumber or the use of a neuro-mace to knock a guy out.

*shrug* So long as it's fairly applied at the table. My players in the past have mostly used Petrification (if they had it), to make people into something easy to smash... if they want to capture people, there are better options.

[darthauthor]

*shrug* So long as it's fairly applied at the table. My players in the past have mostly used Petrification (if they had it), to make people into something easy to smash... if they want to capture people, there are better options.[/quote]

Please share some of those options.

How did your group cuff and transfer a prisoner with Supernatural strength, a MD body and regeneration without them escaping, killing the characters or being killed. I've read about "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" but they all have a duration. After they wear off heroes or villains still have to deal with them.

I'm talking about a baby dragon, Cyberknight and a Grackle Tooth.

Very Respectfully

[ShadowLogan]

Re: Just what is Petrified
If the Basilisk Dragon's Petrification writeup (Dragons & Gods pg21) works the same as other examples of the power (I looked at Gorgon and the Warlock Spell), then non-body artificats (metal armor in the example) can be turned to stone.

Re: how to fix a Petrified victim if they become damaged.
Per the Warlock discription in Rifts Book of Magic (pg72) as the most detailed version I've seen, it would suggest the damage is permanent and than something like "Mend Stone" would not fix the damage.

There is an alternative option though, after being turned back to normal, you could cast the "Restoration" Spell (Book of Magic pg151) which would fix things provided the break happened less than 48hrs ago

This also rules out doing something like replacement limbs, but would allow for external "cosmetic" surgery .

Now a GM could rule otherwise here as a house rule and say "Mend Stone" and replacement limbs could be done if they choose.

Re: Aura
Everything has an aura.

The person(s) that have been petrified are placed in stasis, so they can not use any power/ability while turned to stone. That will impact how other powers/abilities can interact with them.

[Library Ogre]

How did your group cuff and transfer a prisoner with Supernatural strength, a MD body and regeneration without them escaping, killing the characters or being killed. I've read about "Carpet of Adhesion" and "Magic Net" but they all have a duration. After they wear off heroes or villains still have to deal with them.

Usually? They didn't, or they brought along tools to do the job. Magic net, then teleport them. Restraints that could be applied, at least to the cyber-knight (and maybe the grackle tooth; I don't remember them well). Petrification is a long-term strategy, sure, but it's not one that disarms people... it stops them from doing things. So when you wake them up, you make sure they're in another magic net, and surrounded by enough aimed weapons that they know that they can't win. Or with a bomb collar.

Two of those you're talking about (the dragon and the cyberknight) simply cannot be disarmed... you might take off their equipment, but the dragon is armor and weapons, and the cyberknight only loses them if you sap their ability to do psionics. Petrification saps that, but it wasn't a method we used to transport prisoners with the intention of disarming them, because I didn't use it in a way that allows disarmament.