Order of Battle for CCW & TGE

[Warshield73]

While I was trying to calculate how powerful a Dominator Star Fortress is compared to Three Galaxies ships I ran into a familiar problem, we have no idea how big any of the fleets are in the Phase World setting. For me this leads to a lot of world building issues but the two biggest are: 1-How many ships from a given fleet are you going to encounter (ex. when you are in TGE space how often do you see a Smasher Flotilla or in CCW space when pirates attack a station or colony how many ships show up to help) 2-How big are the battles and what is the scale from normal to disaster in terms of ship losses.

For the purposes of this discussion I want to focus on the CCW and the TGE. We have numbers for some of the others. It says the UWW has 30,000, The Altess 2,500 and the Golgan 50,000. These numbers are all vague and we don’t know how that breaks down by type for most of them. But, without Knowing the numbers for the CCW and TGE we really can’t evaluate these. Also, it will get confusing if we start throwing around numbers for four or five different groups.

I went through all the books and these are the numbers I was able to find, for both individual ship classes and fleets for what we might call rated ships so Corvettes and up or Sub-capital and capital only, not worried about fighters and shuttles.

CAF Fleet

Spoiler:

Capital (DB 13, pg. 37) 19,000
Sub-Capital 193,000
Discovery Corp Sub-Capital 200,000 (approx.)

This means that the CAF fleet is about 9% Capital ships if you don’t count the discovery, which you kind of have to so it is really about 4.6% Capital Ships

Scimitars (DB 2, pg.168) - 10,000
Hunters(DB 3, pg.86) - 8,000 (2,000 in IDFs)
Warshield - thousands
Explorer - ?
Interdictor - ?
Protector - ?
Pakmasters (DB 3, pg. 100) - 90
Emancipator (DB 13, pg. 18) - 12

The biggest issue with this number is we don’t know if it includes the IDFs (Independent Defence Forces). I assume it doesn’t, as that would make that Discovery Corp number really ridiculous. If the IDF number is not included then how many ships are we talking and what is the breakdown?


CAF Fleet Organization

Spoiler:

We get the three following, contradictory organizations

DB 2, pag. 168
20 fleets

DB 3, page 98
8 Fleets
4 Corkscrew
2 Thundercloud
2 Anvil

Each Fleet has:
1-2 BB
1-4 CV
6-24 CA
24-60 DD/F

DB 13, page 37
3 Task Forces, 1 per galaxy

1 Battle Group per sector
240 Corkscrew
48 Thundercloud
13 Anvil

We also know that the system of Goldielox has
Emancipators - 2
Protectors - 42
Warshields - 300

TGE Fleet

Spoiler:

I couldn’t find any actual numbers for the TGE in Fleets, it simply says

Capital & Super Capital (DB 13, pg. 79) 5% of the fleet
Which means
Sub Capital 95%

Berserker - ?
Etherium (DB 13, pg. 82) - 1
Smasher - ?
Executioners (DB 13, pg. 84) - 17,000
Doombringers (DB 3, pg.102) - 23

Now this means that if the only Capital ships in the fleet are Executioners and Doombringers the TGE fleet has:
Capital & Super Capital 17,023
Sub Capital 340,460
Which puts them on level with the CCW

Now it seems unlikely that those are the only Capital ships so in addition to the TGE having a higher percentage of their fleet as Capital ships they probably have a serious quantitative advantage in sub-capital as well.

TGE Fleet Organization

Spoiler:

Smasher Flotillas (DB 3, pg.94)
Smashers - 3
Berserkers - 6

The actual fleets (DB 13, pg. 79)
6 Fleets - 2 Corkscrew, 2 Thundercloud, 2 Anvil

4 Battle Groups Each, each one centered on a Doombringer

24 total Battle Groups

So two questions:

First, did I miss any numbers for these two in any of the books? If so, please provide a reference.

Second, if you created your own Order of Battle that contradicts the books, as I did, what were those numbers and how did you come up with them? If not, what do you think of mine in the next post compared to what we get from the books?

[Warshield73]

Years ago, before even the Anvil Galaxy book came out, I sat down and created a general map of the Three Galaxies based off the information it the first two books. At that point a few friends of mine helped me come up with a OoB based largely on the US Navy, circa 2000, and the Honor Harrington novels.

I started with the CCW as I decided the CCW fleet and overall military would be smaller than the TGE but have more capital grade ships. So I came up with my CCW numbers and just made the TGE numbers a certain percentage greater.

From this I was able to create a basic chart, military personnel and ship numbers by general type, based on the population, economic power and militarization of a given group.

All my numbers come from a comparison to the US Navy based on size of population

CCW

Spoiler:

The CCW Military is 0.83% of its population, which was smaller than the 0.88% of the US at the time.

Total number 58 Billion military personnel
I put 75% of that into the IDFs,, 66% of that was reserves

CAF 15 billion (for context that is enough to crew 707,000 Emancipator Class Dreadnoughts
Marines 6 billion

The CAF and CAF Marines had a reserve as well but it was about 5%

Based again on Population I gave the CAF the following

Total Hulls 762,625
Escort (Corvettes to Light Cruisers) 65%
Sub-Capital (Cruisers to Battle Cruisers with Escort Carriers of the same size range) 25%
Capital (BBs and CVs) 10%
Dreadnoughts 50 total ships across 4 classes all smaller than the Doombringer, so less than a hundredth of a percent

25% of these ships were assigned to IDFs. I always assumed IDFs made greater use of fixed fortifications as well as fighters, patrol ships, torpedo ships and gunships which are all smaller than a Corvette.

For organization I combined what was in DB 2 and 3.
8 Fleets, divided into 20 divisions
4 Corkscrew, 11 divisions
2 Thundercloud, 5 divisions
2 Anvil, 4 divisions
Fleets had at least 2 divisions but no more than 4. Divisions were further broken down into Battle Groups which were the smallest administrative unit.

Fleets and then Divisions covered a specific area. The size of the area as well as the numbers and types of ships varied wildly. I also had the Discovery corp mixed in. 6 of those divisions were Discovery, 1 each in Thundercloud and Anvil with 4 in the Corkscrew.

A friend of mine pointed out that the Fleets, given the number of ships, people, and total cubic lightyears, would largely be administrative and would probably remain static while the number and territory of Divisions might change over time as the CCW expanded.

TGE

Spoiler:

I gave the TGE a 30% advantage in personnel and a 20% advantage in ships

Total Hulls 915,150
Escort (Corvettes to Light Cruisers) 70%
Sub-Capital (Cruisers to Battle Cruisers with Escort Carriers of the same size range) 20%
Capital (BBs and CVs) 5%
Dreadnoughts 1,000 total ships across 5 classes with the Doombringer being the largest but I did have one class as newer it was just smaller

As for Fleets I was less specific with the TGE
I gave them 4 Fleets. One for each galaxy with the 4th dedicated to the area surrounding the FWC. Fleets were broken into Battle Groups which were assigned to specific areas and could only leave those areas with permission of the Emperor or his council.

To clarify in DB 3, pg. 98 & 102, it says that the CCW favored BBs and CVs with the TGE favoring Dreadnoughts and that the Doombringer was the largest ship in the Three Galaxies but it never said it was the only Dreadnought. As I said all my numbers were created before Anvil Galaxy. I saw nothing in DB 5 or 6 that altered my numbers and by the time 12, 13 and 14 came out I was too set in my system to change anything.