Anyone else prefer the first edition robotech setting?

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:22 pm

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Why Dana was left behind in the Sentinels OVA is addressed IIRC.

No, it is not. That was never animated and its a rather idiotic line of reasoning anyway that imagines this firewall between the UEF and its forces in deep space that is NOWHERE in Robotech. Again, they have demonstrably FTL-comm on ships as small as the Pegasus-class Assault Shuttle and FTL-travel capable ships in Robotech. Why would this firewall exist?

Maybe as a safety precaution in case things went bad on Tirol, so the Masters couldn't track the signals to Earth?

I agree that it is a POSIBILITY for Dana's hometown to be a colony somewhere, but that is all it is a possibility.

And yet people cling to the absolute NO PROOF that Max and Miriya abandoned 2 of their kids to go off gallivanting into the universe.

I've never heard of anyone claiming that. I am sure that Dana did feel abandoned on occasion but I've never heard of anyone claiming Max and Miriya abandoned her. It's clear that they made arrangements for her, and her brother if they had more than one child, while they were deployed.

xunk16 · Unread post by **xunk16** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:03 am

Sambot wrote:I don't remember any of that in the novels, or artificial wombs. Although artificial wombs do make sense. Rapid grow them and they don't go through puberty and get curious. You also don't have to rely on the females getting pregnant when they could be fighting. I do remember that the Invid were more fluid. They were also happy that way until their planet was defoliated.

I'm the one using "artificial wombs" here. Mostly what we get from the RNU and comics are the tubes / coffin / protoculture chambers in which they are often stored in line. Then we have Seloy and Myria "being from the same batch" suggesting industrial production similar to the masters - in Genesis - which do use what is more or less "artificial wombs" to produce their own clones. (In fact tubes filled with liquid and growing clones. If that does not fulfill "life support and amniotic functions"... well who am I to explain extra-terrestrial technologies? I'm just assuming it makes sense somewhat.)

As for the shapings and favouring the human morphology and evolution through dimorphism, that is my own comprehension of the relation to the human shape in robotechnology and the migrations of the Flower of Life as a multi-dimensional entity, Zand Vs Lang theories, and finally an attempted analysis of why the flower of life is more compatible with certain worlds rather than others.

It can grow only on worlds where there is sentient life.
It mutates on any world where an evolution plateau happens; where one gender is repressed or non-existent.
Technically, poor conditions for life might also be a factor. Doomed planets seems to also be (more in the 2E RPG).

Mutated flower of life is less potent in terms of technological developments and pushed expansionism. This suggests, at least to me, that the flower is trying to solve the compatibility with the species before anything else. For example, in the novels, it took some time to adapt the invid to its need without influencing planet hopping. While with the masters and humans, the change was "almost immediate" in historic times measurements. (Both already of an "ideal shape", and with the flower originally from Earth... I think it was in "End of the Circle".
Apparently, the comic version also makes the allusion : with Worlds Of Robotech: Cyber World 1: Secrets of Haydon IV. Which brought me to consider a plausible link to Mo religion, but that's just another fan theory.)

The "sex changes the world" phrase is also just my way of highlighting the obvious flower power influence for the different productions of the original shows, which were embraced as a dichotomy in the RNU and old comics. One could also go simpler by saying that "loves conquers all" and that "rejection is the source of all wars". I'm simply going a step further noticing that friendship was not included as a secondary theme to achieve this (in fact the reverse is true, with the direct instrumentation of babies), which in turns plays with the theme of evolution and the humanoid shape (including sexual dimorphism) being influenced by the flower. That last part being amongst the explanations Lang gives of the Shapings in... please don't make me fetch the book (RNU continuity). XD
But more seriously, it comes with the explanation of why the VF-1s and the SDF-1 both share a humanoid shape (said to be working better that way of technology using protoculture), and later is related to the shape taken by the Invid Regess and the other sentinel races. Also the source of Invids eventually coming to humanoid mecha themselves.

While on the other front, one can consider that true peace was achieved only with the Zentraedi at first, with an actual baby being made. Originally, the relationship with the tiresians (ex-master clones) is described as doomed to fail in the Novels, since the clones are dying. (Too far on the war path.) And complicated everywhere else. As for the invid, it did get from bad to worst, with Scott turning into a major bigot for the RNU and Comics, but that was eventually redeemed for the end of the anime with "Love Live Alive" through Yellow Dancer and Sera.

The comics and novels also get one step further, saying that the ultimate goal of the Flower is to jump toward a new universe and begin again the process of elevating sentient races able to cross universal boundaries. This multiversal concern is also preserved with the Titan comics continuity, but this time alluding to many precedent versions : where there was rather an empty void welcoming the Regess jump in the Novels, and the comics had the Gotruzello and Monte Yarrow before the main universe.

So, as for why I believe the zentraedi might need fertility; not much more basis than my background in literary analysis I'm afraid. Seems consistent with what the authors made though. (For RT. I have no idea why they would have made that possible in Macross, outside of humanity's plot armour and a moral that "nature will always take back its path" or something.) I do hope this helps getting my comment in context.

Sambot wrote:Drying up their protoculture is a new one. I suppose that could be happening although the novels would talk about micronized Zentaedi and Dana having protoculture would seem that not all is removed. I do think the person is being taken apart and reassembled some how. Like a Transporter Pad set to reenergize people in a different size. Zentraedi resisting micronization would effect the numbers of hybrids. And I suppose there could be genetic defects which could effect fertility. I don't know if either would be enough to say there weren't more hybrids though.

ShadowLogan wrote:Source.

I've just taken novel #19 because the few comics I flipped hadn't clear enough references. I'm sure, however, there are many others that could be taken into account in the RNU and comics, since the process is generally consistent from one continuity to the other... to the exclusion of the animated and unfinished first draft. Keep in mind this is more deduced and implied rather that straightly given as for the "how" though.

Interestingly enough, it's more a question of knowing mass should come and go somewhere during the process. Furthermore, the sizing chamber is also often called a "Protoculture Chamber" as per at least the RPG (1st & 2E) and the comics, and is generally illustrated filled with a fluid more or less consistent with representation of liquid protoculture in a container.
But that's not the only source though, in fact, the relationship of the Zentraedi with protoculture goes much deeper than just the changing of sizes. Be it a crude form of hermetic magic, as used in Aftermath by Hohsq, or apparently in the RNU : an increase in aggression which would be consistent with the "war shapings" hypothesis from Zand. (Though denied by Exedore as bigotry, the novels also relates the giant shape with a sentiment of empowerment. Not only because of size, but also of communion with protoculture. It is also underlined as a food supplement for the troops and present in their blood, much consistently with the appellation of "protoculture addicts" later reused by even Shadow Chronicle. Even going so far as mentioning what could be detox symptoms becoming an obstacle to micronization.)

Furthermore "Robotech II, Sentinels Book II #5 - The Invid Must Die!" clearly shows the size changing happening without two shapes being present.
And "Malcontent Uprising #4 Prisoner of War" gives us the "drying up" effect during micronization.

Spoiler:

Sambot wrote:That would make for a good adventure.

Thanks! ^^

Xunk16 wrote:The reverse should be technically more likely as for pairings, male zentraedi with human female, but the occurrences of such would be culturally close to none. Male zentraedi are culturally shown to be even more disgusted by physical contacts at first, and thus wouldn't possibly think of dating in general, even less cross-species. Their feelings for Minmei are shown to be more awe than desire, and such could be of human females in general, due to the special status of females in their own fleets. A human girl might try to hunt for that big chunk of a man, but she might also have difficulties passing through the ethnic bias.

Sambot wrote: I don't know if male Zentraedi would have such a difficult time. Generally, maybe but generally a lot of Human males get grossed out by female bodily functions. I think it depends on the person. Kyron seemed grossed out but he also kissed Azonia. More could have been going on off screen. If they'd lived and she'd gotten pregnant, I wouldn't have been surprised.
I do think there was a lot of ethnic bias, which I think would be a reason to keep a child's parentage a secret. And it isn't as if that kind of thing hasn't happened before.

[...]

I don't know about elite status but I can see how Zentraedi would presume Human Females would know more about the entire process. That sadly isn't always true. I can also sadly see infant mortality rates going up with parents (male and female) not knowing what to do or how to care for the child. I do think that the Zentraedi who chose to be micronized early on would have an easier time of being fathers. Not that its easy but they'd be more willing to participate and learn.

Well that is made more manifest by the RPG itself maybe, but I think Khyron is mostly different and more enterprising for being himself an Officer. Furthermore, Azonia is Meltran, and thus not a cross-specie relationship, which might be considered more T'sen-like (the use of your own comrade as a weapon, in that case a psychological counter-measure).

But mostly I pointed to the more numerous lower caste males, which generally would have had a poor experience of being bullied during their rare contacts with females of their own specie. Being proud warriors, most might find the idea of female companionship distasteful, and might develop a subpar mating rate. In much the same way as we can see diminished numbers of young couples in human societies, where young males have been intimidated into feeling inadequate, or at risk of being judged legally for expressing courtship poorly. This fear could become panic if approached by a human lady; which isn't afraid of showing desires, and emotions for which the warrior has no preconceived answers.

Spoiler:

But you might also be right into saying that to the contrary, some Troodi males might also consider human females as natural officers to receive orders from. Thus a human Girl that want to make the first step might find it surprisingly easy to get involved with male T'sen. Not sure how long these relationships would hold though, since the consent might be particularly shady.
And of course, I would also agree that willing subjects of early micronization might have been more ready or apt to socially adapt to human culture.

...

I've just realized but, we all speak of the hybrids only from the human point of view. We might see so few of them because they could be raised inside the zentraedi ranks as full zentraedi kids. There might be less discrimination this side of the story in some cases.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:16 am

Sambot wrote:
Males having an aversion to mushy stuff could be because they'd never been exposed to it before. Same with females. Some just got over it faster than others.

I agree to a point that they likely aren't exposed to it and will eventually get over it, but it could indicate that they are not in what could be considered adult or adolescent bodies (which would rule out reproduction).

Sambot wrote:We don't know the range of that sensor. It's possible they just didn't detect any. Do we know what tests they ran on the civilians they captured? I know they probed them to see if they knew about the Protoculture Matrix and to see if they could be turned into Bioroid pilots but if they scanned for Zentraedi genes it was off screen.

True on the sensor, though it appears to be tied into ZP's hearing and visual senses (possibly other senses as well). So whatever is giving Dana away is something that can be percieved potentially (the alternate is ZP overheard a comment about her parantage off scene).

We don't know what other tests (other than what is shown), but we know that some of the Masters as early as Ep37 wanted to capture specimens for study as part of the initial probing attack.

Sambot wrote:Without testing it's that person's word or eye witnesses, they wouldn't know. A human could claim to be Zentraedi and no one could say otherwise. And yes, there could be racist medical personnel who would out Zentraedi patients. For all we know there were racist doctors sterilizing Zentraedi patients.

The point is that racisim still exists and the Zentreadi would not be immune. While some Zentreadi might be able to costmetically pass for human and get away with it, others are not going to be so lucky. You might have racists also develop "tells" to spot a Zentreadi, weather those "tells" are accurate or not. Other than to hide something embrassing I really can't see a reason to lie to medical staff if you are seeking treatment, nor can I see a reason a human would want to pass themself off as a Zentreadi (for medical purpose, well aside from psycological).

Sambot wrote:Doctors can also write papers without mentioning names. Even then, if they'd have to be careful not to out the patient without putting their patients at risk, or violating their confidentiality, possibly even laws. Intentionally or not, if they go blabbing Human and Zentraedi patients would stop coming to them. They may get their name on a paper but they'd lose their business. Plus they could be putting not just Zentraedi but even Human female and every child at risk. Plus it'd put a hard won peace at risk. Which could mean the paper never gets published.

I'm not saying that a Doctor would write a paper to out Zentreadi directly, and even if they tried the publisher might also take steps to mask the identity. However they could out them indirectly either by a stakeout observation (watching the coming and goings at their facilitiy) or steal information by some means (break-in, extortion of a staff member, etc) because the doctor is known.

Sambot wrote:Then again, nothing says that Dana's brother has to be biological. He could be a foster brother. Or the line about him could be an error.

True, but I seriously doubt the brother was not intended to be biological given the dialogue and the way it was said.

I don't know how we would determine if it was an error when the TV show was done given there isn't another line concerning him. I know there are a few lines that seem out of place in TRM saga that make more sense in the OSM version of the dialogue, but this isn't one of them.

Sambot wrote:As for Rolf's being Dana's guardian or not. He did seem to look after her, although most of his attention was on Bowie who seemed to need it more.

I do not dispute that he could be looking after her, but the question is in what capacity and why.

Sambot wrote:I've just taken novel #19 because the few comics I flipped hadn't clear enough references.

Yeah I'm aware of what is in N#19, but they do not talk about any type of body compression process during micronization. DNA allowing "reconfiguration" would be necessaery I would think if you had multiple sets of Biological "plans" stored in a subjects DNA for whatever predetermined size you wanted them at.

What is seen in the comics I can't say. I've never been into comics really, so it's possible something is being presented out of context. Still do they actually describe the micronization process that way as "body compression" with all the techno-babble, or is that your attempt to explain what might be going on? Plus said depiction of the process may only apply to the old comics and not other versions of RT.

xunk16 · Unread post by **xunk16** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:56 am

ShadowLogan wrote:
xunk16 wrote:I've just taken novel #19 because the few comics I flipped hadn't clear enough references.

What is seen in the comics I can't say. I've never been into comics really, so it's possible something is being presented out of context. Still do they actually describe the micronization process that way as "body compression" with all the techno-babble, or is that your attempt to explain what might be going on? Plus said depiction of the process may only apply to the old comics and not other versions of RT.

As previously stated, they do not in so much words for the examples given. Not anywhere that I would know where to look outside of painstakingly re-read the whole. It just seems clear to me that where there once was protoculture that could be harvested for science, there is no longer under a mobile form once micronized (though some form persists). This after having gone through a bath of liquid which visibly exchange mass / volume with the growing or shrinking clone in every depiction we get (no level drop, no pressure build to crack the glass). And one dying zentraedi which seems to dehydrate / mummify into said liquid. We also have very improbable giants needing a substance to maintain themselves in that state.

I am apparently assuming that a machine which kills by extracting something from a body would be in fact built with the capacity to extract something from a body as intended. This at least from the death being explained as resulting, at least in part, by "sloppy technique" in the use of the machines.

So while I think these were enough to substantiate that protoculture does indeed get in or out of zentraedi in sizing / protoculture chambers, I don't think we have the finer details of their cells being sponges or gifted of an inflatable interstitium if that is what you are looking for. It is named "proportional system" and we know it exists. We also know over many sources that the process isn't without adverse effects. As also previously said, the "how" is left to the interpretation of the reader despite the "what" being detailed in mostly the same manner everywhere. Possibly because that novel series and its related comic weren't total strangers to one another as for their production bible. I'm not sure there would be any satisfying bio-babel as to how such a thing would happen into a organism so fast, and this is probably why the authors avoided the faux-pas of detailing more than necessary.
The novels add exposure to some form of radiation, which seems to imply the cells / particles must be excited for the transfer to take place.
I will not presume to know what a Zentraedi is made out of outside of protoculture and chemical structures similar to human DNA.

Now I might have used a shortcut by writing it as "dried out", but the consistency remains the same over each iterations, outside of the anime which depicted two bodies during the process. This however would barely change the physics implied of what fills the space or shape. "Distilled" or "evaporated" might have been as good, I just thought it wouldn't be as clear. Not that it mattered in the end.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:26 pm

Sambot wrote:Or the line about him could be an error.

Quite literally, it cannot BE an error because everything else that has been done is an ADAPTATION of the Tv series. The Tv series establishes she has a younger brother.

As for Rolf's being Dana's guardian or not. He did seem to look after her, although most of his attention was on Bowie who seemed to need it more.

Episode #42 Danger Zone
DANA: Professor Cochrane agrees we're the only ones with a chance to knock that thing out of the sky. Bowie, General Emerson is a very reasonable man and he was a friend of your father's. He'll understand.

BOWIE: But that was years ago.

DANA: I know you resent the fact your dad asked him to keep an eye on you, but why take that out on us?

Nowhere, and I do mean quite literally NOWHERE, in Robotech does it EVER imply Rolf was Dana's guardian. And Bowie's statements clearly indicate that his being Emerson's ward wasn't something recent. The fact is that this whole line of nonsense is COMPLETELY irrational when its absolutely 100% proven true that there is FTL-comm on vehicles as small as the Assault Shuttle and FTL-propulsion on everything AT LEAST Binary-class Battlecruiser-sized and above (and YMMV if it its on the smaller Pulsar-class Light Cruiser depending on if you think the Garfish, which is much smaller than the Pulsar, is FTL capable). At most you'd have Bowie's parents gone for a few years instead of like "Well, Bowie, have a nice life with Uncle Rolf. See ya around kid!" and noping off to points unknown (let alone Max and Miriya joining Vince and Jean for being the biggest Dirtbag Parents Award).

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:25 pm

xunk16 wrote:
Sambot wrote:I don't remember any of that in the novels, or artificial wombs. Although artificial wombs do make sense. Rapid grow them and they don't go through puberty and get curious. You also don't have to rely on the females getting pregnant when they could be fighting. I do remember that the Invid were more fluid. They were also happy that way until their planet was defoliated.

I'm the one using "artificial wombs" here. Mostly what we get from the RNU and comics are the tubes / coffin / protoculture chambers in which they are often stored in line. Then we have Seloy and Myria "being from the same batch" suggesting industrial production similar to the masters - in Genesis - which do use what is more or less "artificial wombs" to produce their own clones. (In fact tubes filled with liquid and growing clones. If that does not fulfill "life support and amniotic functions"... well who am I to explain extra-terrestrial technologies? I'm just assuming it makes sense somewhat.)

The Masters did have cloning technology but I'm don't think it was present on Zentraedi ships. If it was, the technology on the Masters' ship wouldn't have been a surprise. It also seemed mostly for regrowing lost limbs given the presence of just body parts in the liquid. Full bodies seemed rare, mostly with Zor but probably other high ranking/important people. It wouldn't surprise me if they did have artificial wombs to grow the Zentraedi. Outside of Zor, clones don't seem to mass produced. He's the only mass produced clone I can think of. I think they used more genetic engineering by paring partners. Musica refused to mate with the male chosen for her after meeting Bowie. Plus none of the triplet clones were identical. Also, didn't Nova rescue a Tirolean infant? That tells me there was still some "natural" activities happening. Activities the Masters didn't want the Zentraedi to know about or they could go rogue on them.

As for the shapings and favouring the human morphology and evolution through dimorphism, that is my own comprehension of the relation to the human shape in robotechnology and the migrations of the Flower of Life as a multi-dimensional entity, Zand Vs Lang theories, and finally an attempted analysis of why the flower of life is more compatible with certain worlds rather than others.

(snip)

But more seriously, it comes with the explanation of why the VF-1s and the SDF-1 both share a humanoid shape (said to be working better that way of technology using protoculture), and later is related to the shape taken by the Invid Regess and the other sentinel races. Also the source of Invids eventually coming to humanoid mecha themselves.

I never got too deep into the "shapings" and I don't have all the comics so I don't know what happens in them, so I don't know about the flowers being interdimensional. I thought that was Hydon thing. He wanted to go to another dimension and used the Regis mating with the Flower to do it. And the Regis wanted to Transend herself so kept evolving herself and her race. There's also a very practical reason for the Flowers to mutate. The planetary conditions were different.
I also thought the Battloids were to be able to fight the Zentraedi hand to hand if needed. There's lot's of other non humanoid shaped mecha. The SDF-1 reconfigured because it needed certain components to meet to activate the main gun. Why it was built like that I don't know but it wouldn't have had a humanoid shape without the carriers forming arms. So I don't thing protoculture required a human shape. There's definitely advantages to that shape but I don't think it's a protoculture thing.

Scott did have a problem with Marlene/Ariel but seemed to get over it by the end of the show. Then he went off the deep end in the novel before coming back.

The comics and novels also get one step further, saying that the ultimate goal of the Flower is to jump toward a new universe and begin again the process of elevating sentient races able to cross universal boundaries. This multiversal concern is also preserved with the Titan comics continuity, but this time alluding to many precedent versions : where there was rather an empty void welcoming the Regess jump in the Novels, and the comics had the Gotruzello and Monte Yarrow before the main universe.

Yeah, never heard of those. I did pick up a few Robotech comics after Eternity, when I could find them, but I never got into them as they were too weird. And those were the good ones.

So, as for why I believe the zentraedi might need fertility; not much more basis than my background in literary analysis I'm afraid. Seems consistent with what the authors made though. (For RT. I have no idea why they would have made that possible in Macross, outside of humanity's plot armour and a moral that "nature will always take back its path" or something.) I do hope this helps getting my comment in context.

The only thing I can think of is that they wanted Dana to be special and the apparent xenophobia among members of the ASC. Other than that, I don't know why there couldn't have been more Zentraedi as adults, children, or hybrids.

Sambot wrote:Drying up their protoculture is a new one. I suppose that could be happening although the novels would talk about micronized Zentaedi and Dana having protoculture would seem that not all is removed. I do think the person is being taken apart and reassembled some how. Like a Transporter Pad set to reenergize people in a different size. Zentraedi resisting micronization would effect the numbers of hybrids. And I suppose there could be genetic defects which could effect fertility. I don't know if either would be enough to say there weren't more hybrids though.

I've just taken novel #19 because the few comics I flipped hadn't clear enough references. I'm sure, however, there are many others that could be taken into account in the RNU and comics, since the process is generally consistent from one continuity to the other... to the exclusion of the animated and unfinished first draft. Keep in mind this is more deduced and implied rather that straightly given as for the "how" though.
(Snip)

I don't know if being full size makes Zentraedi more aggressive. There were quite a few full size Zentraedi who refused to fight and tried to talk others into giving peace a chance.

Full size Zentraedi would have needed to eat more than a micronized one. I suppose they could have used supplements to help but we do see Kyron eating food so I'm not sure about it. Where would they have gotten those supplements later on when the Zentraedi became full size again?

Reuniting with the protoculture and being one with mecha... I think that's taking the shaping thing too far. We don't see any of that in the show.

Sambot wrote:That would make for a good adventure.

Thanks! ^^

Sambot wrote:
I don't know about elite status but I can see how Zentraedi would presume Human Females would know more about the entire process. That sadly isn't always true. I can also sadly see infant mortality rates going up with parents (male and female) not knowing what to do or how to care for the child. I do think that the Zentraedi who chose to be micronized early on would have an easier time of being fathers. Not that its easy but they'd be more willing to participate and learn.

Well that is made more manifest by the RPG itself maybe, but I think Khyron is mostly different and more enterprising for being himself an Officer. Furthermore, Azonia is Meltran, and thus not a cross-specie relationship, which might be considered more T'sen-like (the use of your own comrade as a weapon, in that case a psychological counter-measure).

No a child from Kyron and Azonia wouldn't be e hybrid but it'd still be a child born from a Zentraedi union. If they hadn't been killed, or their deaths happened later, I could see her getting pregnant and them using her pregnancy and their child against the Humans. "See! We don't need these weak micronians! We can have culture all on our own!"

But mostly I pointed to the more numerous lower caste males, which generally would have had a poor experience of being bullied during their rare contacts with females of their own specie. Being proud warriors, most might find the idea of female companionship distasteful, and might develop a subpar mating rate. In much the same way as we can see diminished numbers of young couples in human societies, where young males have been intimidated into feeling inadequate, or at risk of being judged legally for expressing courtship poorly. This fear could become panic if approached by a human lady; which isn't afraid of showing desires, and emotions for which the warrior has no preconceived answers.

Spoiler:
RPG 2E, Macross Sourcebook :

Female Zentraedi, conditioned by the masters to be smarter and quicker than the males, are strictly conditioned to be officers and high command as their intelligence is considered wasted on the lower caste work.This generally makes females cold and arrogant, and gives them a tendency to look down on their male counterparts.

I think that's more a RPG thing as we do see female crewmembers on the ship. One reports about Kyron's attack and the other to Miriya about her mecha. They may have deep voices but I'm not convinced they're males. It would go against keeping the sexes separate. Plus Azonia was one of Dolza's best commanders and Miriya the top Zentraedi Ace. They would and did look down on others do to their rank and abilities. We can presume other officers and pilots in Azonia's fleet would also. Maybe regular crewmembers might as they served in one of the best fleets but that's a maybe. Members of other fleets may not feel as superior.

But you might also be right into saying that to the contrary, some Troodi males might also consider human females as natural officers to receive orders from. Thus a human Girl that want to make the first step might find it surprisingly easy to get involved with male T'sen. Not sure how long these relationships would hold though, since the consent might be particularly shady.
And of course, I would also agree that willing subjects of early micronization might have been more ready or apt to socially adapt to human culture.

I certainly could be easier for a Human female to get a Zentraedi Male partner than a Human one. How fair the relationship would be would depend on the girl. I can easily see some girls taking advantage of male Zentraedi. Human males get taken advantage of and Zentraedi would be easier as it's all new to them. Then again, the relationship could be just fine too.

I've just realized but, we all speak of the hybrids only from the human point of view. We might see so few of them because they could be raised inside the zentraedi ranks as full zentraedi kids. There might be less discrimination this side of the story in some cases.

Seloy's son was raised Zentraedi so that is possible. Like I've said, without coming out and saying they're Zentraedi or a DNA test, who would know? It's possible people could be Zentraedi or a hybrid and not know it.

edit
About the picture from the comic.
I don't think sizing chambers were meant to operate 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Pushing machines beyond their operational limits could result in deaths or other health problems. Also that first chamber looks like something humans built. It could have flaws that resulted in deaths and health problems too.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:31 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Males having an aversion to mushy stuff could be because they'd never been exposed to it before. Same with females. Some just got over it faster than others.

I agree to a point that they likely aren't exposed to it and will eventually get over it, but it could indicate that they are not in what could be considered adult or adolescent bodies (which would rule out reproduction).

Adolescents would be capable of reproduction so even if Zentraedi had Adolescent bodies they could get pregnant or impregnate someone. Their bodies do appear fully grown though. What isn't is their mental and emotional levels when it comes to sex. They've had zero sex ed other than not to mix.

Sambot wrote:We don't know the range of that sensor. It's possible they just didn't detect any. Do we know what tests they ran on the civilians they captured? I know they probed them to see if they knew about the Protoculture Matrix and to see if they could be turned into Bioroid pilots but if they scanned for Zentraedi genes it was off screen.

True on the sensor, though it appears to be tied into ZP's hearing and visual senses (possibly other senses as well). So whatever is giving Dana away is something that can be percieved potentially (the alternate is ZP overheard a comment about her parantage off scene).

We don't know what other tests (other than what is shown), but we know that some of the Masters as early as Ep37 wanted to capture specimens for study as part of the initial probing attack.

That could be but there could still be a range on things. He might be able to see or hear at a distance but identification would require him to be closer. Him hearing a comment off scene could have happened too. Her parentage wasn't a secret.

True. They could have found more hybrids and even full Zentraedi or they didn't find any more. In the novel they call Max and Miriya's paring odd. It's more like they were surprised that a human and Zentraedi would pair up than that it could be done.

Sambot wrote:Without testing it's that person's word or eye witnesses, they wouldn't know. A human could claim to be Zentraedi and no one could say otherwise. And yes, there could be racist medical personnel who would out Zentraedi patients. For all we know there were racist doctors sterilizing Zentraedi patients.

The point is that racisim still exists and the Zentreadi would not be immune. While some Zentreadi might be able to costmetically pass for human and get away with it, others are not going to be so lucky. You might have racists also develop "tells" to spot a Zentreadi, weather those "tells" are accurate or not. Other than to hide something embrassing I really can't see a reason to lie to medical staff if you are seeking treatment, nor can I see a reason a human would want to pass themself off as a Zentreadi (for medical purpose, well aside from psycological).

True. Zentraedi can be racist too. And yes, there could be tells, but I think a lot of Humans would get caught in them. As for hiding something, it doesn't have to be hiding. A doctor doesn't need family history to stitch a cut or set a broken limb. Its only for certain illnesses where that information becomes more important and that isn't always known now. I don't see why it would be easier after the war. And the Human pretending to be Zentraedi would either be undercover, have issues, or be trying to take advantage of something.

Sambot wrote:Doctors can also write papers without mentioning names. Even then, if they'd have to be careful not to out the patient without putting their patients at risk, or violating their confidentiality, possibly even laws. Intentionally or not, if they go blabbing Human and Zentraedi patients would stop coming to them. They may get their name on a paper but they'd lose their business. Plus they could be putting not just Zentraedi but even Human female and every child at risk. Plus it'd put a hard won peace at risk. Which could mean the paper never gets published.

I'm not saying that a Doctor would write a paper to out Zentreadi directly, and even if they tried the publisher might also take steps to mask the identity. However they could out them indirectly either by a stakeout observation (watching the coming and goings at their facilitiy) or steal information by some means (break-in, extortion of a staff member, etc) because the doctor is known.

Sure. Those things can happen and might have. But just going and coming doesn't meant they're Zentraedi and if that information isn't written down they still couldn't tell. The best they could do is suspect. Not that people always need more reason than that.

Sambot wrote:Then again, nothing says that Dana's brother has to be biological. He could be a foster brother. Or the line about him could be an error.

True, but I seriously doubt the brother was not intended to be biological given the dialogue and the way it was said.

I don't know how we would determine if it was an error when the TV show was done given there isn't another line concerning him. I know there are a few lines that seem out of place in TRM saga that make more sense in the OSM version of the dialogue, but this isn't one of them.

Just a younger brother doesn't mean he was biological. He could be a foster brother or an adopted brother. There's no way of knowing from that statement alone. Given that he's never discussed anywhere else, I have to think he's a foster brother.

The only way we could know for sure is to ask Macek but that's not possible.

Sambot wrote:As for Rolf's being Dana's guardian or not. He did seem to look after her, although most of his attention was on Bowie who seemed to need it more.

I do not dispute that he could be looking after her, but the question is in what capacity and why.

If we go strictly be the animation, true. However, the novels clearly have Max and Miriya asking Rolf to look after her.

Sambot wrote:I've just taken novel #19 because the few comics I flipped hadn't clear enough references.

Yeah I'm aware of what is in N#19, but they do not talk about any type of body compression process during micronization. DNA allowing "reconfiguration" would be necessaery I would think if you had multiple sets of Biological "plans" stored in a subjects DNA for whatever predetermined size you wanted them at.

What is seen in the comics I can't say. I've never been into comics really, so it's possible something is being presented out of context. Still do they actually describe the micronization process that way as "body compression" with all the techno-babble, or is that your attempt to explain what might be going on? Plus said depiction of the process may only apply to the old comics and not other versions of RT.

Not my quote. I was replying to someone else. It is clear that the sizing chamber reduces and enlarges what's put in it. Whether or not that's because of what's written in Zentraedi DNA or in the machine's programming I don't know.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:39 pm

xunk16 wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
xunk16 wrote:I've just taken novel #19 because the few comics I flipped hadn't clear enough references.

What is seen in the comics I can't say. I've never been into comics really, so it's possible something is being presented out of context. Still do they actually describe the micronization process that way as "body compression" with all the techno-babble, or is that your attempt to explain what might be going on? Plus said depiction of the process may only apply to the old comics and not other versions of RT.

As previously stated, they do not in so much words for the examples given. Not anywhere that I would know where to look outside of painstakingly re-read the whole. It just seems clear to me that where there once was protoculture that could be harvested for science, there is no longer under a mobile form once micronized (though some form persists). This after having gone through a bath of liquid which visibly exchange mass / volume with the growing or shrinking clone in every depiction we get (no level drop, no pressure build to crack the glass). And one dying zentraedi which seems to dehydrate / mummify into said liquid. We also have very improbable giants needing a substance to maintain themselves in that state.

I am apparently assuming that a machine which kills by extracting something from a body would be in fact built with the capacity to extract something from a body as intended. This at least from the death being explained as resulting, at least in part, by "sloppy technique" in the use of the machines.

So while I think these were enough to substantiate that protoculture does indeed get in or out of zentraedi in sizing / protoculture chambers, I don't think we have the finer details of their cells being sponges or gifted of an inflatable interstitium if that is what you are looking for. It is named "proportional system" and we know it exists. We also know over many sources that the process isn't without adverse effects. As also previously said, the "how" is left to the interpretation of the reader despite the "what" being detailed in mostly the same manner everywhere. Possibly because that novel series and its related comic weren't total strangers to one another as for their production bible. I'm not sure there would be any satisfying bio-babel as to how such a thing would happen into a organism so fast, and this is probably why the authors avoided the faux-pas of detailing more than necessary.
The novels add exposure to some form of radiation, which seems to imply the cells / particles must be excited for the transfer to take place.
I will not presume to know what a Zentraedi is made out of outside of protoculture and chemical structures similar to human DNA.

Now I might have used a shortcut by writing it as "dried out", but the consistency remains the same over each iterations, outside of the anime which depicted two bodies during the process. This however would barely change the physics implied of what fills the space or shape. "Distilled" or "evaporated" might have been as good, I just thought it wouldn't be as clear. Not that it mattered in the end.

I'm not sure about there being liquid in the chamber. They'd have a difficult time breathing and we don't see that. There would also be problems with pressure and we don't see that either.

As for the Zentraedi that died, I mentioned this above, that pod looks to be human made as doesn't match the others seen in the same pic or animation. It could be they needed more so Humans built some which could have contained a flaw that resulted in the Zentraedi's death. It could also be that the machines were overworked. I doubt they were meant to operate 24/7.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:45 pm

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Sambot wrote:Or the line about him could be an error.

Quite literally, it cannot BE an error because everything else that has been done is an ADAPTATION of the Tv series. The Tv series establishes she has a younger brother.

Actually, the series does not say how said brother was related to her. Biological sibling, adopted sibling, foster sibling, or just very close friend. Furthermore, the series is itself an adaptation, one that has been remastered since, so the statement could very well be an error. Plus, the series does not end with the animation. That he is never mentioned in additional material leads me to believe that the statement is either an error or he is a foster brother.

As for Rolf's being Dana's guardian or not. He did seem to look after her, although most of his attention was on Bowie who seemed to need it more.

Episode #42 Danger Zone
DANA: Professor Cochrane agrees we're the only ones with a chance to knock that thing out of the sky. Bowie, General Emerson is a very reasonable man and he was a friend of your father's. He'll understand.

BOWIE: But that was years ago.

DANA: I know you resent the fact your dad asked him to keep an eye on you, but why take that out on us?

Nowhere, and I do mean quite literally NOWHERE, in Robotech does it EVER imply Rolf was Dana's guardian. And Bowie's statements clearly indicate that his being Emerson's ward wasn't something recent. The fact is that this whole line of nonsense is COMPLETELY irrational when its absolutely 100% proven true that there is FTL-comm on vehicles as small as the Assault Shuttle and FTL-propulsion on everything AT LEAST Binary-class Battlecruiser-sized and above (and YMMV if it its on the smaller Pulsar-class Light Cruiser depending on if you think the Garfish, which is much smaller than the Pulsar, is FTL capable). At most you'd have Bowie's parents gone for a few years instead of like "Well, Bowie, have a nice life with Uncle Rolf. See ya around kid!" and noping off to points unknown (let alone Max and Miriya joining Vince and Jean for being the biggest Dirtbag Parents Award).

If we go strictly be the animation, no it doesn't say he's her guardian. It also doesn't say he isn't. And like I said above, Robotech does continue beyond what was animated. The novels clearly have Max and Miriya asking Rolf to be Dana's guardian.

It also doesn't matter if FTL communication exists or not if the REF and Sentinels are operating under radio silence. Not passing on personal messages could also be restricted because if intercepted it would not only inform their enemies of whom was where but that information could be used against them. That kind of thing happen now. How often did the Master intercept ASC transmissions? Just think about what would have happened if Carpenter had sent a message ahead informing the ASC of his arrival. The Masters would have been waiting for him instead of being surprised. What would have happened if the Masters learned the REF had Tirol? Sent someone back to see if the REF had the Protoculture Matrix? Try to blackmail the REF into surrendering? So there are very good reasons for them to maintain radio silence.

And again, FTL does not mean instantaneous. It would still take time for the message to travel. Presuming they even had time to send one which we saw from the novels and comics that they didn't. They arrived at Tirol and were plunged into another war. Also, the Masters aren't the only enemies the REF had so again, they have very good reasons to maintain communications silence.

Also being deployed and leaving a child behind doesn't mean that they they don't care about their children. We clearly see them agonizing over the decision to leave their children behind. That is not the behavior of dirtbag parents. That's the behavior of parents who love their children and don't want them brought up in the horrors of war. Besides, if we go strictly by the animation, would Max and Miriya and Vince and Jean even be alive? Would Vince and Jean even exist? I know Rick Hunter was mentioned by the narrator in later episodes but I don't recall the others ever being mentioned again after Dana's Story.

xunk16 · Unread post by **xunk16** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 3:02 am

Sambot wrote:The Masters did have cloning technology but I'm don't think it was present on Zentraedi ships. If it was, the technology on the Masters' ship wouldn't have been a surprise. It also seemed mostly for regrowing lost limbs given the presence of just body parts in the liquid. Full bodies seemed rare, mostly with Zor but probably other high ranking/important people. It wouldn't surprise me if they did have artificial wombs to grow the Zentraedi. Outside of Zor, clones don't seem to mass produced. He's the only mass produced clone I can think of. I think they used more genetic engineering by paring partners. Musica refused to mate with the male chosen for her after meeting Bowie. Plus none of the triplet clones were identical. Also, didn't Nova rescue a Tirolean infant? That tells me there was still some "natural" activities happening. Activities the Masters didn't want the Zentraedi to know about or they could go rogue on them.

Genesis #4, at the very least, hint that there was an industrial scale production at first. That capability ensured the takeover of the Masters upon their ancient regime. It doesn't mean it was continued, but it could have been in times of need, such as the Invid invasion of the empire. Now that production may well not have been done on zentraedi ships, but that doesn't change the idea of Zentraedi batches that might then have been shipped in their stasis / protoculture chamber unto ships; to be decanted as needed.

Genesis #4 -1 : Industrial production of the first Master Clones to strengthen the regime.
Genesis #4 - 2 : Hints of the Zentraedi being not so much different in terms of production or design.

As Zentraedi are produced in large batches, this is not the case of the later Master culture, which does encourage certain paring between selected individuals. This is good on many levels if one does want to protect genetic diversity and a capacity for betterment. I guess artificial indoctrination might also not fly very well with the high society of the regime, and they might very well educate them normally once the vat grown copies are made. Even if only to differentiate themselves from their slaves. I still think most of the pregnancy happens in a controlled environment though, considering the ideal of genetic perfection / eugenics they demonstrate. Possibly only viable fetuses up to specification are kept. Pairings could be done in order that their genetic makeup would be extracted at once and used up as needed after.
The few babies or full clones grown on board on their last voyage might be the result of a population cap and limited protoculture.
Furthermore, there was a notion of not every tiresians / tiroleans agreeing with this new mode of reproduction. Those left behind were activist for the normal birthing process / advocate of natural reproduction, and there might have been special dispenses for the triumvirate of high ranking clones.

Thus I can't say where that infant came from. It could well have been born before the departure from Tirol for all we know, and thus could be of either origins. A young clone seems more probable though, since that last voyage's population was very select and taken amongst those more loyal to the regime.

Sambot wrote:About the picture from the comic.
I don't think sizing chambers were meant to operate 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Pushing machines beyond their operational limits could result in deaths or other health problems. Also that first chamber looks like something humans built. It could have flaws that resulted in deaths and health problems too.

[...]

I'm not sure about there being liquid in the chamber. They'd have a difficult time breathing and we don't see that. There would also be problems with pressure and we don't see that either.

As for the Zentraedi that died, I mentioned this above, that pod looks to be human made as doesn't match the others seen in the same pic or animation. It could be they needed more so Humans built some which could have contained a flaw that resulted in the Zentraedi's death. It could also be that the machines were overworked. I doubt they were meant to operate 24/7.

Sizing chambers are not meant to operate for that sustained amount of time, especially not if one is trying to rush the process. That is confirmed by both editions of the RPG, the RNU and the comics. The death and other health problems are mostly said to be the result of wrongful operation, yes. But there are also those that would be sure to die or develop symptoms according to the RNU - See quotes above. (The continuity mostly interested by the concept of "protoculture addicts" to begin with.)
Now the death was not the issue as the mean of death. A machine will generally not kill of being wrongly operated by doing something entirely alien to the way it is supposed to function.

------

I'm mostly assuming at this point, but these bubbles would be consistent with all the other clone growing tube's bubbles and similar transparent tanks of liquids in these comics. If these aren't bubbles, then I have no idea what they are and that would be never explained. Furthermore, liquid would be consistent with the animation of sizing chambers that are shown with animated bubbles AND bubbling liquid sounds in "#12 The Big Escape! - around 8:00 running time" (In fact, if we are to take this into account, then the RDF knew about master cloning technology, they just had no idea how that lead to the development of the triumvirate and bioroid enhancements. At least suggesting that the technology did evolve separately from their inception. The tech might have to be adapted for the particular Zentraedi biology... but we just have no information on that.)

The problems with pressure wouldn't happen if the mass / volume is displaced correctly from in and out of the t'sen, or at least that was part of the general idea behind my deduction.
Now that wouldn't mean there couldn't be any problems with it being wrongly operated. It might be said then that one zentraedi might be crushed if wrongly grown back; but I'm certain this wasn't the case for the picture of the "mummified" zentraedi since we know they were getting micronized. Protuberance from pressure damage would thus appear as convex and not concave, not possibly confused with a look of extreme decomposition / dehydration. At the very least according to my limited knowledge of compression / decompression damages on living tissues.

That protoculture chamber could be human made for that scene in the comics. I don't remember this particular detail being mentioned in #19 either. While this could explain parts of the failures, it is never suggested as one of the possible problems / atrocities committed during the forceful micronization. Rather "sloppy technique" and "rushed micronization cycles" are given as the reasons. I would think such a crime / willfull negligence would have been a good idea to be mentioned by the authors at least once, considering the importance given to tarnish the ASC's actions during that time. I must then assume that the Zentraedi in the room would recognize a sizing chamber for what it is, and that visual differences for that particular model are negligible. The human construction part might just be the pumps and power supplies needed to make it work outside of a ship. Remember this scene is taking place in an outdoor concentration camp on earth.

We are certain the machine was overworked, but the important part is how that overwork did affect the victim. This appearance of "crushed / dehydrated" body is consistent with something that would either be crushed or squeezed or siphoned too hard. We know there is a mass / volume change, that the matter taken / gone must come / go somewhere. We can make a pretty good educated guess that even if liquid would be problematic to breathe in most cases... it can be done if the life-form is adapted to it. (perfluorocarbon) And Zentraedi aren't anything if not made to order.
We can also know that there is mobile protoculture in giant zentraedi, while it might not be so easily harvested from micronized ones. We also know that the sizing chambers are also called protoculture chambers, that tirolian cloning technologies uses copious amount of protoculture to make said clones (as literal raw materials according to genesis), and that protoculture can be a liquid. Living bodies also tend to be made out of copious amount of liquids and other mediums. Furthermore, the sizing chambers are confused for cloning chamber (or assumed to be related material) when first seen by Lisa in the anime.

While I can't tell the mechanism by which it is added / extracted from a warrior, I remain surprised that this idea would seem new to anyone here.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:03 am

xunk16 wrote:
Sambot wrote:

Genesis #4, at the very least, hint that there was an industrial scale production at first. That capability ensured the takeover of the Masters upon their ancient regime. It doesn't mean it was continued, but it could have been in times of need, such as the Invid invasion of the empire. Now that production may well not have been done on zentraedi ships, but that doesn't change the idea of Zentraedi batches that might then have been shipped in their stasis / protoculture chamber unto ships; to be decanted as needed.

(snip)

Thus I can't say where that infant came from. It could well have been born before the departure from Tirol for all we know, and thus could be of either origins. A young clone seems more probable though, since that last voyage's population was very select and taken amongst those more loyal to the regime.

I'm sure that mass creation of life forms happened at one point but not on the Zentraedi ships. I'm also not sure they were clones. Yes, they were genetically engineered but they weren't exact copies of each other the way Zor was. Zor was a clone, a copy. The others were genetically engineered life forms. The Master's triumvirates could have started off as genetically tweaked clones but they do seem to go with more natural processes. How far that goes though I don't know. Maybe they give birth to triplets or the embryo gets harvest, split and genetically tweaked in a artificial womb. I don't know. I do think that infant was born on the ship though. Musica and a guard were supposed to start the process with mating. There no reason another woman couldn't have finish the process with birth shortly before or after reaching Earth's orbit. Maybe even while the ship was on Earth?

Keeping masses of people in stasis until needed and for transport makes sense. However, that seems to be an RPG thing. The stasis chamber seen on the Master's ship is nothing like the sizing chambers. And with only one person being inside the thing I don't think they were used for copying. Just changing size.

Sambot wrote:About the picture from the comic.
I don't think sizing chambers were meant to operate 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Pushing machines beyond their operational limits could result in deaths or other health problems. Also that first chamber looks like something humans built. It could have flaws that resulted in deaths and health problems too.

Sizing chambers are not meant to operate for that sustained amount of time, especially not if one is trying to rush the process. That is confirmed by both editions of the RPG, the RNU and the comics. The death and other health problems are mostly said to be the result of wrongful operation, yes. But there are also those that would be sure to die or develop symptoms according to the RNU - See quotes above. (The continuity mostly interested by the concept of "protoculture addicts" to begin with.)
Now the death was not the issue as the mean of death. A machine will generally not kill of being wrongly operated by doing something entirely alien to the way it is supposed to function.
------

I'm still not sure about some of those quotes as they seem to contradict the show.

I'm mostly assuming at this point, but these bubbles would be consistent with all the other clone growing tube's bubbles and similar transparent tanks of liquids in these comics. If these aren't bubbles, then I have no idea what they are and that would be never explained. Furthermore, liquid would be consistent with the animation of sizing chambers that are shown with animated bubbles AND bubbling liquid sounds in "#12 The Big Escape! - around 8:00 running time" (In fact, if we are to take this into account, then the RDF knew about master cloning technology, they just had no idea how that lead to the development of the triumvirate and bioroid enhancements. At least suggesting that the technology did evolve separately from their inception. The tech might have to be adapted for the particular Zentraedi biology... but we just have no information on that.)

(snip)

Okay. Saw and heard them that time but I'm not sure which version I saw. We also don't see them in Miriya's chamber. There's also the problem of breathing. That one Zentraedi who did didn't seem wet and I'm not sure he could scream with his lungs full of liquid. Then again, maybe that's why he died?

They would have to be very careful about pressures if there was a liquid in it.

That protoculture chamber could be human made for that scene in the comics. I don't remember this particular detail being mentioned in #19 either. While this could explain parts of the failures, it is never suggested as one of the possible problems / atrocities committed during the forceful micronization. Rather "sloppy technique" and "rushed micronization cycles" are given as the reasons. I would think such a crime / willfull negligence would have been a good idea to be mentioned by the authors at least once, considering the importance given to tarnish the ASC's actions during that time. I must then assume that the Zentraedi in the room would recognize a sizing chamber for what it is, and that visual differences for that particular model are negligible. The human construction part might just be the pumps and power supplies needed to make it work outside of a ship. Remember this scene is taking place in an outdoor concentration camp on earth.

We are certain the machine was overworked, but the important part is how that overwork did affect the victim. This appearance of "crushed / dehydrated" body is consistent with something that would either be crushed or squeezed or siphoned too hard. We know there is a mass / volume change, that the matter taken / gone must come / go somewhere. We can make a pretty good educated guess that even if liquid would be problematic to breathe in most cases... it can be done if the life-form is adapted to it. (perfluorocarbon) And Zentraedi aren't anything if not made to order.

The one seen in the top left is vastly different than the one on the bottom right. Those look like the ones in the show. That makes me think that Humans built their own sizing chambers.

As for matter I figured the one body was broken down and rebuilt in the smaller chamber and the consciousness transferred. Leftover material would be stored in a tank for the enlargement process.

We can also know that there is mobile protoculture in giant zentraedi, while it might not be so easily harvested from micronized ones. We also know that the sizing chambers are also called protoculture chambers, that tirolian cloning technologies uses copious amount of protoculture to make said clones (as literal raw materials according to genesis), and that protoculture can be a liquid. Living bodies also tend to be made out of copious amount of liquids and other mediums. Furthermore, the sizing chambers are confused for cloning chamber (or assumed to be related material) when first seen by Lisa in the anime.

While I can't tell the mechanism by which it is added / extracted from a warrior, I remain surprised that this idea would seem new to anyone here.

Protoculture and clones are two terms that get thrown about a lot. The machine Kyron took was called a Protoculture Chamber but looked nothing like a sizing chamber.

Protoculture being in Zentraedi seems iffy to me. I suppose it could be used to make Zentraedi but if the Masters were running out, why didn't they micronize their Zentraedi and take the left over protoculture? They could have outfitted them with new mecha and kept the imperative of not messing with micron cultures. Plus the wouldn't have needed those supplements we never hear about again.

PS thank you for posting the pictures

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:41 am

Sambot wrote:Actually, the series does not say how said brother was related to her. Biological sibling, adopted sibling, foster sibling, or just very close friend.

She says she has a younger brother. You have yet to provide a shred of proof of anything to the contrary. She didn't say "adopted younger brother". She didn't say "boy who was like a younger brother". She didn't say "I'm lying cause I wanna get in your trousers, so I'm faking having a younger brother, Zor". She said she has a younger brother.

Furthermore, the series is itself an adaptation, one that has been remastered since, so the statement could very well be an error.

NO. IT. CAN'T.

Plus, the series does not end with the animation. That he is never mentioned in additional material leads me to believe that the statement is either an error or he is a foster brother.

Just because the "other materials" were written by idiots that didn't pay attention the freaking show doesn't mean jack squat. The series DOES end with the animation cause everything else to date: novels, RPGs, comics and the like have IGNORED large swaths.

To quote Peter Walker:

"Robotech is unique in that everyone (including HG) treats, and has always treated, the original show as defective, like it's 85 episodes of cinematic leprosy, that need to be "fixed" by the licensees."

What is so wrong with treating the 85 episodes, AS IS, as being correct? Fans of Star Wars don't act as if A New Hope was "defective" and in need of "fixing".

If we go strictly be the animation, no it doesn't say he's her guardian.

Well the animation is what came first. That makes it the sole canon.

It also doesn't say he isn't.

Appeal to ignorance is not going to win this argument.

And like I said above, Robotech does continue beyond what was animated.

Utterly and totally beside the point.

The novels clearly have Max and Miriya asking Rolf to be Dana's guardian.

I, quite frankly, don't give a d@mn what the novels say or don't say. They are utterly and totally irrelevant to this discussion.

It also doesn't matter if FTL communication exists or not if the REF and Sentinels are operating under radio silence.

Except we KNOW they're not operating under radio silence. FFS, how can you be THIS ignorant of the series?

Episode #54 Mind Games
NARRATOR: The Earth forces were enhanced by reinforcements from hyper-space, responding to a mayday from the original attack on Space Station Liberty. With the Southern Cross forces in tatters and the fate of the Earth hanging in the balance, an important rendezvous is called at the newly armored Moonbase ALuCE

BINARY-CLASS BATTLECRUISER PILOT: Retro rockets. All clear.

MOONBASE CONTROL: On behalf of United Earth Defense forces and mission Commander Rolf Emerson, welcome back!

EARTH CONTROLLER: Moonbase, we are tele-monitoring the arrival of Transport Squadron 85. Get ready for a message from the Mission Commander.

ROCHELLE: The entire armada is waiting for your transmission General

EMERSON: Attention: This is General Rolf Emerson transmitting from Earth. You have been brought back here from your mission in deep space because we have a plan which can turn this war around and bring us victory against the alien invaders. After you have loaded your ship, you will orbit Earth, where I will join you to personally take command.

And before you EVEN START, YES Transport Squadron 85 is 100% REF. There are no ifs, ands, or buts in this regard because (again) the Tv series plainly states what is and is not.

Episode #68 Eulogy
SCOTT: He's the greatest ace ever to come out of the Robotech Military Academy.

RAND: Ohhhh..

ROOK: I heard he's supposed to be a real ladies man too.

ANNIE: Really? I'd like to meet him.

SCOTT: Yep, graduated number one in his class and then volunteered for Special Forces duty when Admiral Hunter sent in the first wave against The Robotech Masters.

Carpenter is not the first wave cause they didn't even know who the alien fleet that was blockading Earth belonged to and the orders came from General Reinhardt. Hunter is later placed in command of what is called the Earth Reclamation Forces and sends troops back to fight against (first) The Masters and (later) the Invid. And, btw, if there was a First Wave, there had to be at least a Second Wave.

Not passing on personal messages could also be restricted because if intercepted it would not only inform their enemies of whom was where but that information could be used against them. That kind of thing happen now.

Which is also irrelevant cause they have FTL transportation.

How often did the Master intercept ASC transmissions?

Well, in the opening gambit, The Masters severed the links to all of Earth's orbital resources including Moon Base Luna (they bombed it), Space Station TS 25 (they cut it in half) and jammed transmissions cause Moon Base Luna could not contact Space Station Liberty.

Episode #37 Dana's Story
MOON BASE COMTROLLER: Liberty, this is Moon Base. Space Station Liberty, come in at once. (Thought filter) Why won't they answer? (Radio Filter) Space Station Liberty come in. Emergency!

Episode #40 Volunteers
GENERAL: I'll begin by telling you that the prime objective is to regain our communications link with Liberty and its Moon base counterpart.
.....................
SPACE STATION LIBERTY COMMS: This is Space Station Liberty calling Earth. This is Space Station Liberty calling Earth. We are receiving your messages, do you copy? Liberty calling Moon Base. Liberty calling Moon Base. Moon Base, we're getting through to GHQ again.

Just think about what would have happened if Carpenter had sent a message ahead informing the ASC of his arrival.

Well, it wouldn't have gotten through since The Masters were jamming the comms of the entire Solar System in a way that the UEF was only able to get through a few times (Volunteers and Clone Chamber being the two times shown).

Episode #51 Clone Chamber
ROCHELLE: That's the end of the message. We received this transmission from the moon 24 hours ago.

SEWARD: That's the first transmission from the moon that's gotten through the enemy's sub-space interference. We, should be happy about that, I suppose. Hmm?

What would have happened if the Masters learned the REF had Tirol?

Well, for one thing, the REF weren't at Tirol. Wherever they were, they hadn't encountered The Masters or their technology AT ALL.

Episode #47 Outsiders
NARRATOR: At that very moment, a battlefortress from SDF-3 Pioneer Mission is approaching the Robotech Masters ship after defolding from hyperspace.

TECH: Sir, we've locked onto an unidentified warship. Distance 799 and closing. Its definitely of alien origin.

Sent someone back to see if the REF had the Protoculture Matrix?

How? They could ill-afford spacefolding another time. Heck, they approached Earth under impulse for ~15 years before making one final jump.

Episode #31 Khyron's Revenge
SCIENCE MASTER 1: Alright, but one more thing. Why don't we check the Matrix figures on the remaining Protoculture?

ROBOTECH MASTER 2: But why? They've been rechecked. We don't even have enough left to make the hyperspace jump to Earth's solar system.

SCIENCE MASTER 2: If that's correct, then we have no choice but to proceed with your new plan.

ROBOTECH MASTER 1: So then, we begin the trip under impulse power and rely on the cell tissue to complete our mission.

Episode #38 False Start
BILL MORRISON: This is a Special Bulletin from Channel 3, your Macross Broadcasting Station. Good evening, I'm Bill Morrison, with this late breaking story. Just in from United Earth Command Headquarters, United Earth Government revealed today that at 11PM last night a huge spacecraft of unknown origin was detected as it entered our quadrant from hyperspace. After tampering with, and possibly destroying one of our communications satellites, it has settled into a stationary orbit 36,000 kilometers above our planet. All troops have been mobilized and put on Red Alert.

So there are very good reasons for them to maintain radio silence.

There are quite literally none. Again, if the REF is supposed to be the tip of the spear, how the hell is Earth supposed to know what's going on with ITS OWN DEFENSE if the expedition just noped off to points unknown and never comm'd at all. And besides which, we KNOW that's untrue:

Episode #38 False Start
NARRATOR: Dana accompanies the Military Police to the brig, resigned to spending the next few weeks in solitary confinement while in another section of Command Headquarters, Operation Central monitors and controls the tremendous flow of information vital to the security of the planet from every conceivable outpost on the Earth and beyond.
............................
NARRATOR: Space Station Liberty, Earth's only link to the Robotech Defenders who have gone out into the cosmos searching for answers to the puzzling riddle of Protoculture.

And again, FTL does not mean instantaneous. It would still take time for the message to travel.

The time lag is at least 10 days given what is established in episode #11 First Contact. Which still doesn't mean there was no constant rotation of troops, materiel and the like between Earth and the REF.

Also, the Masters aren't the only enemies the REF had so again, they have very good reasons to maintain communications silence.

Why the hell would they maintain permanent radio silence? They would need to request reinforcements, supplies, MONEY and everything under the sun if they were in a war.

Also being deployed and leaving a child behind doesn't mean that they they don't care about their children.

Well it does if they're gone for nearly half their child's life. Again, there is literally NO PROOF of this massive firewall between the UEF and its forces serving deep space and a crapload of dialogue to indicate otherwise. Also the Earth forces clearly have the technology to keep in touch.

Besides, if we go strictly by the animation, would Max and Miriya and Vince and Jean even be alive?

Dana doesn't say anything about her parents being "in the past tense". Nor does anyone else like Colonel Fredricks when he dresses her down.

Would Vince and Jean even exist?

Well, it would be kinda difficult for him to exist otherwise. But, like I provided in my LAST POST, Bowie's father is mentioned and its NOT Rolf Emerson.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:20 am

Xunk16 wrote:As previously stated, they do not in so much words for the examples given.

In other words it is your own techno-babble explanation for how the process works. Moving on.

Sambot wrote:Sure. Those things can happen and might have. But just going and coming doesn't meant they're Zentraedi and if that information isn't written down they still couldn't tell. The best they could do is suspect. Not that people always need more reason than that.

While coming/going isn't likely to out you as a Zentreadi immediately, it could still serve as a starting point.

Sambot wrote:Just a younger brother doesn't mean he was biological. He could be a foster brother or an adopted brother. There's no way of knowing from that statement alone. Given that he's never discussed anywhere else, I have to think he's a foster brother.

Which is jumping to conclusions that he is a foster brother. Nothing from the show indicates their status is other than simple biological brother-sister relationship. We don't know anything about him.

Sambot wrote:The only way we could know for sure is to ask Macek but that's not possible.

Or ask the writer(s) for the episode in question.

Sambot wrote:If we go strictly be the animation, true. However, the novels clearly have Max and Miriya asking Rolf to look after her.

The Animation. I am aware of the Novels. The thing is the Novels (along with the pre-2001 Comics) and Show-Canon are now officially considered separate entities (from a continuity POV, though the older stuff is left in a single mess IINM) and have been for like 2-decades now (if not longer), just because the Novels retell the story from the show does not mean they take precedence over the other when differences arise. So please stop trying to cram the Novels into the Show-Canon. The novels have Zand turning into a FoL at the end of the TRM arc, and events of NG taking place in early-mid 2030s (much like the 1E RPG), the animation doesn't have Zand appear at all in TRM (so he could not turn into a FoL) and HG's current timeline places NG main animation events as taking place in 2042-4 just to name a few inconsistencies between the Novels and the show. I do not have a problem with the novels per say either, I know there are fans that do, but the events of the Novels do not apply to the Show (either TY's version or the old Macek version). I have no problem discussing either the Novels or the Show, but I do not use one to apply to the other to address issues given the list of inconsistencies between the two as I treat them as alternate universes to each other.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:56 pm

Show Canon is all well and good but quite literally irrelevant to the now off the rail subject of this thread.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:42 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:As previously stated, they do not in so much words for the examples given.

In other words it is your own techno-babble explanation for how the process works. Moving on.

That isn't my quote. Are mine posts getting messed up?

Sambot wrote:Sure. Those things can happen and might have. But just going and coming doesn't meant they're Zentraedi and if that information isn't written down they still couldn't tell. The best they could do is suspect. Not that people always need more reason than that.

While coming/going isn't likely to out you as a Zentreadi immediately, it could still serve as a starting point.

Very true. Which I think will lead to a lot of false assumptions and people getting hurt. Well, people would any way but even more would be hurt.

Sambot wrote:Just a younger brother doesn't mean he was biological. He could be a foster brother or an adopted brother. There's no way of knowing from that statement alone. Given that he's never discussed anywhere else, I have to think he's a foster brother.

Which is jumping to conclusions that he is a foster brother. Nothing from the show indicates their status is other than simple biological brother-sister relationship. We don't know anything about him.

I'm not jumping to conclusions. We only have that one statement of Dana having brother. Nothing from that statement indicates what type of brother he is. There are different types. There's also the fact that he's never mentioned anywhere else. Those things lead me to believe he's a foster brother. Sure there could be a universe where he is a child of Max and Miriya but from the one's I know about, at best he's a foster brother.

Sambot wrote:The only way we could know for sure is to ask Macek but that's not possible.

Or ask the writer(s) for the episode in question.

True. They might know what he was thinking.

Sambot wrote:If we go strictly be the animation, true. However, the novels clearly have Max and Miriya asking Rolf to look after her.

The Animation. I am aware of the Novels. The thing is the Novels (along with the pre-2001 Comics) and Show-Canon are now officially considered separate entities (from a continuity POV, though the older stuff is left in a single mess IINM) and have been for like 2-decades now (if not longer), just because the Novels retell the story from the show does not mean they take precedence over the other when differences arise. So please stop trying to cram the Novels into the Show-Canon. The novels have Zand turning into a FoL at the end of the TRM arc, and events of NG taking place in early-mid 2030s (much like the 1E RPG), the animation doesn't have Zand appear at all in TRM (so he could not turn into a FoL) and HG's current timeline places NG main animation events as taking place in 2042-4 just to name a few inconsistencies between the Novels and the show. I do not have a problem with the novels per say either, I know there are fans that do, but the events of the Novels do not apply to the Show (either TY's version or the old Macek version). I have no problem discussing either the Novels or the Show, but I do not use one to apply to the other to address issues given the list of inconsistencies between the two as I treat them as alternate universes to each other.

Yes, canon has changed. The show itself has been redubbed and reedited so we can't even go by the original show. Which version is he mentioned in? If you told me, I missed it. If we go just by the show, are Max and Miriya even alive? We see Leonard addressing the graduates talking about paying tribute to those who didn't survive and then we see Max and Miriya. If I didn't know anything about sequels, the novels or comics, I would think they're dead. Maybe in a different universe they are. In the canon I remember though, the show took precedence. If there was a conflict the show won but canon itself did not end with the show. And while canon has changed, I believe the same still holds true. Show first, beyond second. Otherwise Shadow Chronicles isn't canon. Live Love Alive isn't canon.

So going just by the show, Dana mentions a brother. Okay. She has a brother. There's nothing that beyond the show that says she can't have a brother. That he's never mentioned again, in any material, could limit what type of brother her is. Maybe he's biological. Maybe he isn't. Why isn't Maia called the youngest child of Max and Miriya instead of youngest daughter? Granted both are correct but if there was a brother youngest child would be more accurate.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:12 am

jaymz wrote:Show Canon is all well and good but quite literally irrelevant to the now off the rail subject of this thread.

Quite true. To get back on subject I think I said that since there's things in both that I like, I use both. I also ignore things I don't like in both. I'm sorry but the Veritech ATV is the wrong size to use Cyclone forearm weapons. There's also no way some of the aliens are capable of using Human mecha because they're too big. So I ignore those things. I also bring in things from the comics or online. I also bring in things from Macross and Macross II depending on the game.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:17 am

Sambot wrote:I'm not jumping to conclusions. We only have that one statement of Dana having brother. Nothing from that statement indicates what type of brother he is. There are different types. There's also the fact that he's never mentioned anywhere else. Those things lead me to believe he's a foster brother. Sure there could be a universe where he is a child of Max and Miriya but from the one's I know about, at best he's a foster brother.

Yes you are jumping to conclusions.

The statement puts no adjectives to describe the brother. The DEFAULT for when someone tells you they have a Sibling is for them to be a biological sibling.

It is jumping to conclusions that Dana's brother has to be some type of non-biological brother based on lack of details or revisiting him either in TRM arc or another arc but it could still be explainable based on his age, which we don't know:
-Sentinels OVA he might not even be born yet, which would explain his lack of mention
-NG/TSC he might be dead by this point if he was on Earth (and in TSC IIRC most of Mia's family is supposed to be on the SDF-3)
-TRM Dana and him might have had a falling out of some kind which is why she doesn't talk about him (heck she barely talks about her Parents).

Sambot wrote:Which version is he mentioned in? If you told me, I missed it. If we go just by the show, are Max and Miriya even alive?

He is mentioned in the Legacy/TV edit of Robotech in Ep50. I haven't sprung for the any of the newer remaster releases of RT but AFAIK they didn't alter any dialog. I do have the remastered original series for SDC:SC (TRM arc) and GCM (NG arc) on DVD, and in the original version of RT Ep50 (which is SDC:SC Ep13) she still references a brother ("kid brother" specifically) being back in the named community she grew up in on another planet (Librte, she's on Glorie). So I don't know of any animated form that doesn't include the necessary line.

Sambot wrote:We see Leonard addressing the graduates talking about paying tribute to those who didn't survive and then we see Max and Miriya.

Except that in the scene in question in Ep37 Leonard is listing the fallen, which doesn't include Max and Miriya, and the listing in the dialogue has been suggested could be used to have one of the Terrible Trio (Vanessa) survive since the list seems focused on the names viewers would recognize.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:43 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:I'm not jumping to conclusions. We only have that one statement of Dana having brother. Nothing from that statement indicates what type of brother he is. There are different types. There's also the fact that he's never mentioned anywhere else. Those things lead me to believe he's a foster brother. Sure there could be a universe where he is a child of Max and Miriya but from the one's I know about, at best he's a foster brother.

Yes you are jumping to conclusions.

The statement puts no adjectives to describe the brother. The DEFAULT for when someone tells you they have a Sibling is for them to be a biological sibling.

It is jumping to conclusions that Dana's brother has to be some type of non-biological brother based on lack of details or revisiting him either in TRM arc or another arc but it could still be explainable based on his age, which we don't know:
-Sentinels OVA he might not even be born yet, which would explain his lack of mention
-NG/TSC he might be dead by this point if he was on Earth (and in TSC IIRC most of Mia's family is supposed to be on the SDF-3)
-TRM Dana and him might have had a falling out of some kind which is why she doesn't talk about him (heck she barely talks about her Parents).

No, I'm not jumping to conclusions. My conclusions are based that he's never mentioned else where. Ever.

Looking at all the universes we know of.
If he was born before the SDF-3 left he would have been mentioned when the Sterlings were debating on whether or not to bring Dana with them or leave her behind with Rolf Emerson because it wouldn't just be a single child they'd have to make arrangements for.
If he was born after the SDF-3 left, how would Dana know about him when she hasn't heard from her parents?

The only ways his not being mentioned makes sense are
- He died as a child before the SDF-3 left. That would make it a sensitive subject none would be wanting to talk about. The problem is I believe that would make Max and Miriya more reluctant to leave Dana behind.
- He's a foster or adopted brother. Someone she grew up with after the SDF-3 left but before Novel 20. He could still have died later or had a falling out which would make Dana reluctant to talk about him.
- There's a completely different universe and in that universe the boy came into and left Dana's life before the SDF-3's launch or he was born in space and she knows about him from communications with her parents. Whatever the reason, he isn't there and it would be a sore point for her.

Right now, I'm leaning towards foster or adopted brother. Dana and Bowie may not be the only ones the Emersons, or whomever, fostered. I'm sure that happened often with parents in the REF. The Emerson's, or guardian may have and even lost a son of their own. We don't know because we're not told. Personally, I think it would be great if the Sentinels was completed and we did are introduced to Dana's brother.

Sambot wrote:Which version is he mentioned in? If you told me, I missed it. If we go just by the show, are Max and Miriya even alive?

He is mentioned in the Legacy/TV edit of Robotech in Ep50. I haven't sprung for the any of the newer remaster releases of RT but AFAIK they didn't alter any dialog. I do have the remastered original series for SDC:SC (TRM arc) and GCM (NG arc) on DVD, and in the original version of RT Ep50 (which is SDC:SC Ep13) she still references a brother ("kid brother" specifically) being back in the named community she grew up in on another planet (Librte, she's on Glorie). So I don't know of any animated form that doesn't include the necessary line.

Thank you. Since it's in the original version of Robotech, I would say that the line about her brother is either a mistake, by translating too close to the original Japanese dialog and not caught when creating the Sentinels, or she's referring to a non biological sibling. Or with all the retcons, a brother from a different version of the Sentinels.

Sambot wrote:We see Leonard addressing the graduates talking about paying tribute to those who didn't survive and then we see Max and Miriya.

Except that in the scene in question in Ep37 Leonard is listing the fallen, which doesn't include Max and Miriya, and the listing in the dialogue has been suggested could be used to have one of the Terrible Trio (Vanessa) survive since the list seems focused on the names viewers would recognize.

Yes, Leonard does say some names but the bridge crew surely weren't the only ones who were killed on the SDF-1, the SDF-2, or in New Macross City during Kyron's final attack. Many others died too. Also, when I hear about people making a sacrifice and then being shown pictures, I'm going to think the people in the pictures were the ones making that sacrifice.

It would be nice if more of the Bridge Crew survived.

xunk16 · Unread post by **xunk16** » Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:08 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:The DEFAULT for when someone tells you they have a Sibling is for them to be a biological sibling.

I wouldn't say the DEFAULT to be the same for everyone on every subjects. At the time the show was first on the air, I would tend to concede you that point. But personal experience would also push me to accept half-siblings in that default. Given that is still part biological, but it might give a good reason why it would never be spoken about in most situations.
For all we know, Max and Myria are both very happily wed and monogamous. So it's either a bastard from Max which Myria might have pardoned but still resent; or - the most probable - some scientists made test on Myria to know if the feat of making a hybrid child could be repeated using her genetic material.

Now both these occurrences doesn't seem to float with any established cannon outside of that one line you keep speaking of, but which I don't remember. It especially would clash with the Dana / Zand relationship in the RNU... since she was the one living through all the tests. For the anime or other though? I wouldn't put it outside of speculation that Myria might have had an in-vitro test kid of which she had nothing to do afterwards; leaving it with the docs who asked for it to manage. Seems like the kind of things that would be of no import to a Zentraedi but might be to an half human child.
Still sounds wrong with all the other stuff in the series though. For every reasons already mentioned above.

But mostly because such a statement, even if entirely biological, would normally be too loaded to ignore.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:07 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
ZerO Kay wrote: I'd even have respected CRPG for Classic RPG but this idea of table top or even using pen/pencil and paper is pretentious, assuming that we play RPGs at a table or with pen and paper...

PnP and TT are more accurate than "classic" though. "Classic" IMHO conjures up childhood pretending to be X-character, possibly with certain types of toys (and the toy industry does have a category it considers "role play"), basically LARP before you'd think of it as LARP. That the PnP and TT are now digitally virtualized to some extent isn't in question, but even with that digital virtualization you can still play it the traditional expected way and it might also be a bit pretentious to assume everyone (or even the majority) has moved to the digital virtualization approach as you can still buy real minis (which you don't actually have to use) and do printouts and forgo the entire digital aspect.

I've never heard of a child playing pretend as role-playing even if it technically is. Bet you that category of toy role-play came out after and probably doesnt have the G after it. It would be pretentious to assume that everyone has digitalized and moved away from the table... that is why I didn't say it should be tablet rpg or virtual rpg, Classic only assumes that it came first and your arguements only hold up if I suggested CRP not CRPG.

RobotechMaster · Sat Jan 07, 2023 8:27 am

mech798 wrote:Now granted, Shadow Chronicles suffered from A. HG doing very little with it, B. evidently having a lot more editorial control, and C. the license getting pulled.

But for all that it gave us such "gems" as Lancer's Rockers, I cannot help but feel that the first edition had a lot more room for stories that weren't focused solely on the primary storyline. Sure the EBSISI was invented whole cloth (and would probably need to be changed now) complete with mechs taken from the Southern Cross power armor, but it let you do more that wasn't directly tied to the main storyline. There was a lot more room for "a gang of PCs get into adventures that will never involve the big issue of the day."

What say you?

I'd only say this, I LIKED the 2nd Ed Robotech RPG by Palladium Books. As of 1st Ed Robotech RPG, it could be easily shoehorned into 2nd Ed. Robotech RPG by adjusting Timeline & editing the lore to conform to 2nd Edition settings.

OTOH, recently I am more into SMG's & Battlefield Press' Robotech RPG. The settings included elements from the novels, comics & yes even previous 2nd Ed Robotech RPG by Palladium. While I am no RPG player, but I loved Robotech RPG attempts to pad the Robotech lore.

As for GMs, you have creative freedom either to follow Purist guidelines, OR basically free for all inclusive of adapting official Robotech elements from novels, comics & yes, even shoehorned elements of other "transforming mecha" anime series into your campaigns.

For me, I followed Universalist approach by adapting all official (either Canon & Secondary continuity) Robotech materials plus OSM, even selectively adapting Macross sequels (SDF Macross / Flashback 2012 / Macross Zero / Macross II) & adapting elements from other mecha anime series (Zillion, Orguss, Megazone 23, Gallforce, Bubblegum Crisis).

Heck, I am slowly incorporating Mechanoids, Three Galaxies & certain things from RIFTS to pad alien factions in Robotech.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:09 pm

Sambot wrote:No, I'm not jumping to conclusions. My conclusions are based that he's never mentioned else where. Ever.

Looking at all the universes we know of.

Yes, you are since there are so many questions, we don't know the answer to. The simplest explanation for what little we know would be that he is her biological brother. Anything more would require jumping to conclusions to explain away his absence or lack of additional reference or reading more into what was said than exists.

And if you are trying to bring in other universes to answer the question that doesn't mean what works in one universe will work or apply to another. As an example, using the Marvel property, Ultron is the creation of Hank Pyrm in some continuities I am familiar with, but not in the MCU (Stark/Banner w/an Infinity Stone), by your logic we should be able to apply those other continuities and say that Ultron will have a thing for Janet Van Dyme (sp?) in the MCU.

Sambot wrote:If he was born before the SDF-3 left he would have been mentioned when the Sterlings were debating on whether or not to bring Dana with them or leave her behind with Rolf Emerson because it wouldn't just be a single child they'd have to make arrangements for.

That assumes the Sterlings had not already come to a consensus on her brother if he existed at that point. His age and/or health might be a factors that would make such a choice easier and explain his absence in the Sentinels OVA than a healthy Dana at ~10yo. We know children were being taken onboard the SDF-3 (and presumably other Pioneer Mission ships), but we do not know what requirements they might have had for age/health in 2022.

Sambot wrote:If he was born after the SDF-3 left, how would Dana know about him when she hasn't heard from her parents?

That though raises the question of how long they have not been talking and why. Which within the animated continuity cannot be done.

Sambot wrote:Thank you. Since it's in the original version of Robotech, I would say that the line about her brother is either a mistake, by translating too close to the original Japanese dialog and not caught when creating the Sentinels, or she's referring to a non biological sibling. Or with all the retcons, a brother from a different version of the Sentinels.

In all likelihood it just was forgotten about BTPTB (HG) when doing Sentinels and has just continued since then for the animated continuity (it also doesn't help that HG has a bias against TRM saga).

Sambot wrote:Yes, Leonard does say some names but the bridge crew surely weren't the only ones who were killed on the SDF-1, the SDF-2, or in New Macross City during Kyron's final attack. Many others died too. Also, when I hear about people making a sacrifice and then being shown pictures, I'm going to think the people in the pictures were the ones making that sacrifice.

I agree there where likely more individuals killed in that last battle, both human and Zentreadi between the SDFs, the city, and Khyron's ship, however if the name doesn't get said they perished in the battle we cannot say they did without some other indicator (we can't even use absence due to the time jump between Ep36 and Ep37 which is established to be 15years, Khyron and Azonia are implied to perish in the animation so they are out).

Xunk16 wrote:It especially would clash with the Dana / Zand relationship in the RNU... since she was the one living through all the tests.

And as I've said previously the entire Zand arc seen in the RNU doesn't happen in the animated universe, all of those scenes in the TRM novels involving Zand are creations of the Novels for the TRM arc. Zand is nowhere to be seen in the animation in this arc and doesn't get any reference at all (in this time frame) which is easy to explain since he wasn't in the original animation. Mixing and Matching the Animation/Show with the Novels (and likely the comics) is a recipe for a headache due to inconsistencies between the adaptions.

Zer0 Kay wrote:I've never heard of a child playing pretend as role-playing even if it technically is.

It is an industry term the producers use AFAIK and not used at the consumer level (Pretend is) though an online search (@ Amazon) for "role play toys" does turn up results (and in general search using google gets linked back to Pretend Play).

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:11 pm

And we're still off the rails....

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:21 am

RobotechMaster wrote:
I'd only say this, I LIKED the 2nd Ed Robotech RPG by Palladium Books. As of 1st Ed Robotech RPG, it could be easily shoehorned into 2nd Ed. Robotech RPG by adjusting Timeline & editing the lore to conform to 2nd Edition settings.

OTOH, recently I am more into SMG's & Battlefield Press' Robotech RPG. The settings included elements from the novels, comics & yes even previous 2nd Ed Robotech RPG by Palladium. While I am no RPG player, but I loved Robotech RPG attempts to pad the Robotech lore.

Which RPG is that one? What kinds of things does it include?

As for GMs, you have creative freedom either to follow Purist guidelines, OR basically free for all inclusive of adapting official Robotech elements from novels, comics & yes, even shoehorned elements of other "transforming mecha" anime series into your campaigns.

For me, I followed Universalist approach by adapting all official (either Canon & Secondary continuity) Robotech materials plus OSM, even selectively adapting Macross sequels (SDF Macross / Flashback 2012 / Macross Zero / Macross II) & adapting elements from other mecha anime series (Zillion, Orguss, Megazone 23, Gallforce, Bubblegum Crisis).

Heck, I am slowly incorporating Mechanoids, Three Galaxies & certain things from RIFTS to pad alien factions in Robotech.

Pulling from other sources can be fun and expand your games. :ok:

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:02 am

ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:No, I'm not jumping to conclusions. My conclusions are based that he's never mentioned else where. Ever.

Looking at all the universes we know of.

Yes, you are since there are so many questions, we don't know the answer to. The simplest explanation for what little we know would be that he is her biological brother. Anything more would require jumping to conclusions to explain away his absence or lack of additional reference or reading more into what was said than exists.

On the contrary. I am basing my decision on what few facts are available. Simply saying that he is her biological brother is the simplest explanation but it is jumping to conclusions. It's a natural jump and often right but it is still a jump. Without her or some other character stating his relationship to her, there is no knowing what type of brother he is.

And if you are trying to bring in other universes to answer the question that doesn't mean what works in one universe will work or apply to another. As an example, using the Marvel property, Ultron is the creation of Hank Pyrm in some continuities I am familiar with, but not in the MCU (Stark/Banner w/an Infinity Stone), by your logic we should be able to apply those other continuities and say that Ultron will have a thing for Janet Van Dyme (sp?) in the MCU.

There's a difference in looking to an acknowledged separate universe and what used to be canon in one universe.

Sambot wrote:If he was born before the SDF-3 left he would have been mentioned when the Sterlings were debating on whether or not to bring Dana with them or leave her behind with Rolf Emerson because it wouldn't just be a single child they'd have to make arrangements for.

That assumes the Sterlings had not already come to a consensus on her brother if he existed at that point. His age and/or health might be a factors that would make such a choice easier and explain his absence in the Sentinels OVA than a healthy Dana at ~10yo. We know children were being taken onboard the SDF-3 (and presumably other Pioneer Mission ships), but we do not know what requirements they might have had for age/health in 2022.

All the reasons to leave Dana behind would apply to any other sibling. It makes no sense to leave one and take another. Yes, other children went onboard the SDF-3 but I don't believe there were age/health restrictions. Unless they're going to ban pregnant women, and keep women from getting pregnant, there's going to be babies born. Some of those may be preemies or have other health problems. And health problems can occur at any age. Even if there were, they'd still have to arrange for his care. Presuming they didn't decide to stay to be with him. There would also be Dana's feelings. I seriously doubt she wouldn't be very upset at being left behind when her brother gets to go.

There is the possibility of his having died before the Sentinels OVA. That would make him a sensitive topic. It would also make Max's and Miriya's decision to leave Dana that much harder to do.

Sambot wrote:If he was born after the SDF-3 left, how would Dana know about him when she hasn't heard from her parents?

That though raises the question of how long they have not been talking and why. Which within the animated continuity cannot be done.

Nope. The universe does continue past what has been animated though. Unfortunately, current canon gives us even fewer answer than past canon. It would be great if that time period were officially filled in.

Sambot wrote:Thank you. Since it's in the original version of Robotech, I would say that the line about her brother is either a mistake, by translating too close to the original Japanese dialog and not caught when creating the Sentinels, or she's referring to a non biological sibling. Or with all the retcons, a brother from a different version of the Sentinels.

In all likelihood it just was forgotten about BTPTB (HG) when doing Sentinels and has just continued since then for the animated continuity (it also doesn't help that HG has a bias against TRM saga).

I don't think they care much about Robotech except squeezing what they can out of it. Southern Cross does seem to get the short end of things though. I think that's a shame but it didn't do to well originally either or it would have had more episodes.

Sambot wrote:Yes, Leonard does say some names but the bridge crew surely weren't the only ones who were killed on the SDF-1, the SDF-2, or in New Macross City during Kyron's final attack. Many others died too. Also, when I hear about people making a sacrifice and then being shown pictures, I'm going to think the people in the pictures were the ones making that sacrifice.

I agree there where likely more individuals killed in that last battle, both human and Zentreadi between the SDFs, the city, and Khyron's ship, however if the name doesn't get said they perished in the battle we cannot say they did without some other indicator (we can't even use absence due to the time jump between Ep36 and Ep37 which is established to be 15years, Khyron and Azonia are implied to perish in the animation so they are out).

It's hard to list names when those killed were nameless extras. And there's still an implication, intended or not, by showing their pictures after talking about sacrifices. If they didn't survive that battle maybe their son didn't either? Or maybe they did and the son didn't?

Xunk16 wrote:It especially would clash with the Dana / Zand relationship in the RNU... since she was the one living through all the tests.

And as I've said previously the entire Zand arc seen in the RNU doesn't happen in the animated universe, all of those scenes in the TRM novels involving Zand are creations of the Novels for the TRM arc. Zand is nowhere to be seen in the animation in this arc and doesn't get any reference at all (in this time frame) which is easy to explain since he wasn't in the original animation. Mixing and Matching the Animation/Show with the Novels (and likely the comics) is a recipe for a headache due to inconsistencies between the adaptions.

It doesn't help that the animated universe has been edited and redubbed and had entire segments dropped or never finished.

jaymz wrote:And we're still off the rails....

Astrotrain doesn't always use rails. Maybe that's a good thing? Or not?

RobotechMaster · Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:01 am

Sambot wrote:Which RPG is that one? What kinds of things does it include?

Strange Machine Games:
1. Robotech: The Macross Saga The Roleplaying Game (released in 2019)
2. Robotech Homefront (covers 2nd - 3rd Robotech War, expected release 2023)
3. Robotech Among The Stars supplement (still in draft format, covers Robotech II The Sentinels & Robotech The Shadow Chronicles era)

Battlefield Press:
1. Robotech: A Macross Saga Role Playing Game (released in 2019 based on Savage Worlds rules)
2. Robotech: Return to Earth, A Masters & Invid Invasion expansion. (Not yet released)
3. Robotech - Into the Void, A Sentinels & Shadow Chronicles Saga Expansion. (Not yet released)

Pulling from other sources can be fun and expand your games.

Yep.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:46 am

Sambot wrote:On the contrary. I am basing my decision on what few facts are available. Simply saying that he is her biological brother is the simplest explanation but it is jumping to conclusions. It's a natural jump and often right but it is still a jump. Without her or some other character stating his relationship to her, there is no knowing what type of brother he is.

Nothing indicates her "brother" is anything but biological, to claim otherwise is jumping to conclusions that require information we do not have and there is no contradictory information to even suggest he is anything but biological. If you've got a quote from the show that establishes this individual is not her "biological" brother than please provide it, otherwise drop it as we are just going around in circles.

Sambot wrote:It's hard to list names when those killed were nameless extras. And there's still an implication, intended or not, by showing their pictures after talking about sacrifices. If they didn't survive that battle maybe their son didn't either? Or maybe they did and the son didn't?

Dana is no more than 2 years old in Ep36, which is the rough time span between the end of FoA episode and the start of the Reconstruction Period Episdoes, tack on a few more months to get to Ep36 and subtract 9month gestation period (since we don't count gestation period toward age, otherwise we'd all be 9months older). There is no indication that M&M had more than 1 kid in this time frame either.

While M&M are in the footage, it is possible that they are shown due to editing demands, and you might be taking them out of context even w/n the dialogue. We do see (at least one of) M&M's VTs in the formation that flees Khyron's ship before it gets blasted by the SDF-1 maingun, and we also know that group contained Rick who we know survived and makes no mention of the loss of either M&M (which you'd think there would be some indication of given Ben).

Sambot wrote:It doesn't help that the animated universe has been edited and redubbed and had entire segments dropped or never finished.

At its core the Robotech TV Show IS a re-edited and dubbed version of three separate shows brought together to make one new show. There is no way around that. Everything else came after that (well aside from Revell's version of RT* which actually predates the show).

*Revell's version of Robotech in Spoiler

Spoiler:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:54 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:We know children were being taken onboard the SDF-3

Untrue. The only people the OAV says is going on the SDF-3 are in the military.

The Sentinels OAV
LANG: Greetings fellow members of the Robotech Defense Force. I am Doctor Lang, leader of this mission. The process for assembling the crew to man the rebuilt SDF-3 has already begun. By tomorrow we will have selected most of the crewmembers and additional personnel who will be coming with us on this attempt to reach a very distant planet, the homeworld of the Robotech Masters. Many of you were brought to this repair station specifically to become a part of this expedition to deep space. Welcome. Others may need to prove they've acquired the discipline and flexibility that will make them valuable to us as support personnel or fighter pilots to operate the Robotech weapons. We have no way of knowing what sort of reception awaits on the homeworld of these alien beings, but we are ready for any eventuality.

Sambot wrote:If he was born after the SDF-3 left, how would Dana know about him when she hasn't heard from her parents?

Please provide proof that Dana says she's been incommunicado with her parents before the Robotech Masters invaded in 2029. Episode and timestamp.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:45 am

RobotechMaster wrote:
Sambot wrote:Which RPG is that one? What kinds of things does it include?

Strange Machine Games:
1. Robotech: The Macross Saga The Roleplaying Game (released in 2019)
2. Robotech Homefront (covers 2nd - 3rd Robotech War, expected release 2023)
3. Robotech Among The Stars supplement (still in draft format, covers Robotech II The Sentinels & Robotech The Shadow Chronicles era)

Battlefield Press:
1. Robotech: A Macross Saga Role Playing Game (released in 2019 based on Savage Worlds rules)
2. Robotech: Return to Earth, A Masters & Invid Invasion expansion. (Not yet released)
3. Robotech - Into the Void, A Sentinels & Shadow Chronicles Saga Expansion. (Not yet released)

Pulling from other sources can be fun and expand your games.

Yep.

Thanks. I've heard of Strange Machine Games was doing a Robotech RPG but I didn't know about Battlefield Press's version. Is it a problem having two different companies making competing versions of the same game?

ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:On the contrary. I am basing my decision on what few facts are available. Simply saying that he is her biological brother is the simplest explanation but it is jumping to conclusions. It's a natural jump and often right but it is still a jump. Without her or some other character stating his relationship to her, there is no knowing what type of brother he is.

Nothing indicates her "brother" is anything but biological, to claim otherwise is jumping to conclusions that require information we do not have and there is no contradictory information to even suggest he is anything but biological. If you've got a quote from the show that establishes this individual is not her "biological" brother than please provide it, otherwise drop it as we are just going around in circles.

Sorry. That's wrong. Defining what type of brother he is, without any evidence is jumping to conclusions. If we just go by the animation, there's no saying what kind of brother he is. If we go by other sources he isn't. If you have a quote that says he is a biological brother please provide it.

Sambot wrote:It's hard to list names when those killed were nameless extras. And there's still an implication, intended or not, by showing their pictures after talking about sacrifices. If they didn't survive that battle maybe their son didn't either? Or maybe they did and the son didn't?

Dana is no more than 2 years old in Ep36, which is the rough time span between the end of FoA episode and the start of the Reconstruction Period Episdoes, tack on a few more months to get to Ep36 and subtract 9month gestation period (since we don't count gestation period toward age, otherwise we'd all be 9months older). There is no indication that M&M had more than 1 kid in this time frame either.

Uh huh. Which means any brother would have to come later so unless he's dead, why isn't he mentioned as his loss would effect their considering leaving Dana?

While M&M are in the footage, it is possible that they are shown due to editing demands, and you might be taking them out of context even w/n the dialogue. We do see (at least one of) M&M's VTs in the formation that flees Khyron's ship before it gets blasted by the SDF-1 maingun, and we also know that group contained Rick who we know survived and makes no mention of the loss of either M&M (which you'd think there would be some indication of given Ben).

Possibly, thought I never got that feeling with the other version. The change in dialog makes a different there. And maybe Rick didn't get a chance to tell Lisa about their loss? He's busy being relieved she's alive and comforting her then being interrupted by Minmay.

Sambot wrote:It doesn't help that the animated universe has been edited and redubbed and had entire segments dropped or never finished.

At its core the Robotech TV Show IS a re-edited and dubbed version of three separate shows brought together to make one new show. There is no way around that. Everything else came after that (well aside from Revell's version of RT* which actually predates the show).

Yes but that isn't what I was referring too. Robotech has been redubbed at least once. Scenes that were cut out or edited for TV have been put back in. We also have Robotech's pilot, Codename Robotech which is often forgotten about. Then there's Robotech the movie which was dropped from canon. Not that it should have been canon to start since it contradicted TMS. And of course there's the Sentinels. At one time the official sequel that was never finished and then dropped from canon. At least all known versions, including what was animated, were dropped. The concept is still canon even if the details are vague. So the animated universe has changed quite a bit over the years.

*Revell's version of Robotech in Spoiler

Spoiler:

Yep. I remember then. I've got a couple of the models and the comics. The comic is nothing like Robotech or any of the other anime. It's been ages but the plot was something like a group of friends have to find some ancient hidden robots to defend their world. Kind of reminded me of Voltron in a way.

I have wondered how Robotech would be if Orguss and Dougram were added to it. I can see some stuff being used but I think most wouldn't be.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:19 am

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:We know children were being taken onboard the SDF-3

Untrue. The only people the OAV says is going on the SDF-3 are in the military.

The Sentinels OAV
LANG: Greetings fellow members of the Robotech Defense Force. I am Doctor Lang, leader of this mission. The process for assembling the crew to man the rebuilt SDF-3 has already begun. By tomorrow we will have selected most of the crewmembers and additional personnel who will be coming with us on this attempt to reach a very distant planet, the homeworld of the Robotech Masters. Many of you were brought to this repair station specifically to become a part of this expedition to deep space. Welcome. Others may need to prove they've acquired the discipline and flexibility that will make them valuable to us as support personnel or fighter pilots to operate the Robotech weapons. We have no way of knowing what sort of reception awaits on the homeworld of these alien beings, but we are ready for any eventuality.
.

That does not say that everyone is in the military. Children would come under "other personnel".

Sambot wrote:If he was born after the SDF-3 left, how would Dana know about him when she hasn't heard from her parents?

Please provide proof that Dana says she's been incommunicado with her parents before the Robotech Masters invaded in 2029. Episode and timestamp

Weren't you the one calling Max, Miriya, Jean, and Grant dirtbag parents because they hadn't communicated with their children?

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:30 am

Sambot wrote:
Yep. I remember then. I've got a couple of the models and the comics. The comic is nothing like Robotech or any of the other anime. It's been ages but the plot was something like a group of friends have to find some ancient hidden robots to defend their world. Kind of reminded me of Voltron in a way.

I have wondered how Robotech would be if Orguss and Dougram were added to it. I can see some stuff being used but I think most wouldn't be.

Orguss was originally suppose to be the middle chapter but they couldn't secure the rights so had to settle for southern cross which itself was always a mess.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:33 am

Sambot wrote:
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:We know children were being taken onboard the SDF-3

Untrue. The only people the OAV says is going on the SDF-3 are in the military.

The Sentinels OAV
LANG: Greetings fellow members of the Robotech Defense Force. I am Doctor Lang, leader of this mission. The process for assembling the crew to man the rebuilt SDF-3 has already begun. By tomorrow we will have selected most of the crewmembers and additional personnel who will be coming with us on this attempt to reach a very distant planet, the homeworld of the Robotech Masters. Many of you were brought to this repair station specifically to become a part of this expedition to deep space. Welcome. Others may need to prove they've acquired the discipline and flexibility that will make them valuable to us as support personnel or fighter pilots to operate the Robotech weapons. We have no way of knowing what sort of reception awaits on the homeworld of these alien beings, but we are ready for any eventuality.
.

That does not say that everyone is in the military. Children would be "other personnel"

Funny how with all the tossing around about Canon a non Canon source, unless hg has changed the definition yet again, being used a proof of something....funny that isn't it?

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:43 am

RSCF wrote:Untrue. The only people the OAV says is going on the SDF-3 are in the military.

Granted, but then you have comments from the show itself (ep61 and ep47). Which leads me to think they had to have made allowances for family on the bigger ship(s) of the fleet. You'd also need to make allowances for onboard "activities" that could result in children, possibly even other missions the ship(s) could undertake. And it isn't like the bigger ships don't have the room (per AotSC the SDF-3 and Tok.-class can support over 100,000 people, but only have a crew of a few thousand or so leaving plenty of margin for children).

And I do agree that the UEEF had the infrastructure to do crew rotations, but we do not know how often those crews are rotated Or how long a given ship was expected to operate before returning to base Or interact with resupply vessels, etc.

Sambot wrote:Sorry. That's wrong. Defining what type of brother he is, without any evidence is jumping to conclusions. If we just go by the animation, there's no saying what kind of brother he is. If we go by other sources he isn't. If you have a quote that says he is a biological brother please provide it.

As I've said before, the default declaration when someone says they have a sibling would be for that sibling to be biological. There is nothing to contradict that she is not referring to a biological sibling.

I am done with this sideline of discussion.

Sambot wrote:Which means any brother would have to come later so unless he's dead, why isn't he mentioned as his loss would effect their considering leaving Dana?

When would he be mentioned and why? We do not know how old he is in 2029-30 when Dana makes the statement of a brother. That means he may not even be born in 2022 (Sentinels OVA), and the NG arc doesn't have any reference to any Sterling IIRC. That leaves TSC (2044) where we meet Dana's other sister, with IIRC that the rest of (or most of) her family is on the SDF-3 being established.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:19 pm

Sambot wrote:That does not say that everyone is in the military. Children would come under "other personnel".

Since when does Lang get to decide which "children" come along?

Weren't you the one calling Max, Miriya, Jean, and Grant dirtbag parents because they hadn't communicated with their children?

Can you really not read? I said they're dirtbags if they just noped off to points unknown and left their kids, instead of maybe it being a temporary thing cause of a deployment. There is literally no proof that BOTH Max and Miriya were on the SDF-3 at the same time. People ONLY have some conjecture from the novels/comics and not a single thing from the Tv series other than relying on a hallucination.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:31 pm

jaymz wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Yep. I remember then. I've got a couple of the models and the comics. The comic is nothing like Robotech or any of the other anime. It's been ages but the plot was something like a group of friends have to find some ancient hidden robots to defend their world. Kind of reminded me of Voltron in a way.

I have wondered how Robotech would be if Orguss and Dougram were added to it. I can see some stuff being used but I think most wouldn't be.

Orguss was originally suppose to be the middle chapter but they couldn't secure the rights so had to settle for southern cross which itself was always a mess.

That's cool. I wonder how they would have made it fit in.

jaymz wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:We know children were being taken onboard the SDF-3

Untrue. The only people the OAV says is going on the SDF-3 are in the military.

The Sentinels OAV
LANG: Greetings fellow members of the Robotech Defense Force. I am Doctor Lang, leader of this mission. The process for assembling the crew to man the rebuilt SDF-3 has already begun. By tomorrow we will have selected most of the crewmembers and additional personnel who will be coming with us on this attempt to reach a very distant planet, the homeworld of the Robotech Masters. Many of you were brought to this repair station specifically to become a part of this expedition to deep space. Welcome. Others may need to prove they've acquired the discipline and flexibility that will make them valuable to us as support personnel or fighter pilots to operate the Robotech weapons. We have no way of knowing what sort of reception awaits on the homeworld of these alien beings, but we are ready for any eventuality.
.

That does not say that everyone is in the military. Children would be "other personnel"

Funny how with all the tossing around about Canon a non Canon source, unless hg has changed the definition yet again, being used a proof of something....funny that isn't it?

It is funny how canon changes so much.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:Sorry. That's wrong. Defining what type of brother he is, without any evidence is jumping to conclusions. If we just go by the animation, there's no saying what kind of brother he is. If we go by other sources he isn't. If you have a quote that says he is a biological brother please provide it.

As I've said before, the default declaration when someone says they have a sibling would be for that sibling to be biological. There is nothing to contradict that she is not referring to a biological sibling.

I am done with this sideline of discussion.

And that is jumping to a conclusion. It's a natural one to make but it is not the only one. Many who grow up in the foster system refer to all their siblings as brother or sister unless being specific. It was like that for a guy I used to work with who had foster siblings. Unless he was being specific he just had lots of brothers and sisters. So to say this boy is Dana's biological sibling without any other information is jumping to a conclusion.

Sambot wrote:Which means any brother would have to come later so unless he's dead, why isn't he mentioned as his loss would effect their considering leaving Dana?

When would he be mentioned and why? We do not know how old he is in 2029-30 when Dana makes the statement of a brother. That means he may not even be born in 2022 (Sentinels OVA), and the NG arc doesn't have any reference to any Sterling IIRC. That leaves TSC (2044) where we meet Dana's other sister, with IIRC that the rest of (or most of) her family is on the SDF-3 being established.

How would Dana know about him if he were born later? If there's communications, why didn't she say she had a sister too? Maia is 19 in TSC. She would have been 5 during TRM. If born after the launch of the SDF-3, the oldest her brother could be is 8. Why tell Dana about a brother but not a sister? It makes no sense.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Sambot wrote:That does not say that everyone is in the military. Children would come under "other personnel".

Since when does Lang get to decide which "children" come along?

When does Lang decide if women can get pregnant and give birth or not? Doesn't canon have Scott being born in space? If he was 22 in 2044, he'd of been born the same year the SDF-3 was launched. Depending on the month it was launched, his mother had either just given birth to him, was already pregnant with him, or had gotten pregnant soon after the launch. I don't remember if Marlene Rush's age was stated but presuming she was about the same age as Scott, she was either an infant when the SDF-3 launched or was also born soon after. So children were onboard the SDF-3 at launch. And we know children came after, as there's Maia Sterling, Marcus Rush, Alex Romero and countless others. So why wouldn't there be other civilians?

Weren't you the one calling Max, Miriya, Jean, and Grant dirtbag parents because they hadn't communicated with their children?

Can you really not read? I said they're dirtbags if they just noped off to points unknown and left their kids, instead of maybe it being a temporary thing cause of a deployment. There is literally no proof that BOTH Max and Miriya were on the SDF-3 at the same time. People ONLY have some conjecture from the novels/comics and not a single thing from the Tv series other than relying on a hallucination.

Yes, I can and you said,

Nowhere, and I do mean quite literally NOWHERE, in Robotech does it EVER imply Rolf was Dana's guardian. And Bowie's statements clearly indicate that his being Emerson's ward wasn't something recent. The fact is that this whole line of nonsense is COMPLETELY irrational when its absolutely 100% proven true that there is FTL-comm on vehicles as small as the Assault Shuttle and FTL-propulsion on everything AT LEAST Binary-class Battlecruiser-sized and above (and YMMV if it its on the smaller Pulsar-class Light Cruiser depending on if you think the Garfish, which is much smaller than the Pulsar, is FTL capable). At most you'd have Bowie's parents gone for a few years instead of like "Well, Bowie, have a nice life with Uncle Rolf. See ya around kid!" and noping off to points unknown (let alone Max and Miriya joining Vince and Jean for being the biggest Dirtbag Parents Award).

That's a definitive statement about the Sterlings and the Grant's parenting. Not an If. In fact you've been constantly blasting them about not communicating even the FTL was available. Now you're saying that they were in communication for her to know about her brother. Which is it? And if they were in communication, why not communicate they she has a sister too? And now you're saying that Max and Miriya aren't even on the SDF-3 together? I suppose they could be assigned to different ships but why break up such a great team? And even if serving different assignments they certainly got together or there wouldn't have been more children. But when would they have told Dana about those children?

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:00 am

Sambot wrote:How would Dana know about him if he were born later? If there's communications, why didn't she say she had a sister too? Maia is 19 in TSC. She would have been 5 during TRM. If born after the launch of the SDF-3, the oldest her brother could be is 8. Why tell Dana about a brother but not a sister? It makes no sense.

2044-19=2025 for Mia.

The SDF-3 left in 2022. A 3 year gap for her brother to be born in.

As to the Why no communication about it? I am not going to speculate.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:18 am

Sambot wrote:When does Lang decide if women can get pregnant and give birth or not?

The SDF-3 is a military ship. There are hundreds of other ships in the Interstellar Fleet as well as 3 Factory Satellites where they could give birth. And, again, I have always maintained the REF has FTL-travel across multiple platforms and there is literally no reason for there not to be constant rotation.

Doesn't canon have Scott being born in space?

No, Mars. It was one of the crewmen on the Horizon he was on that said that. And that STILL doesn't mean there was no constant rotation/contact between Earth and deep space until the start of the 2RW.

So children were onboard the SDF-3 at launch.

NO. THERE. WERE. NOT. You're assuming "born on a spaceship out in deep space" = SDF-3 and not the hundreds of other ships in the Interstellar Fleet, but also the Factory Satellites (3 at last count). And that's still IRRELEVANT to the fact the UEF has FTL-comm on everything that can support it, including Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles, and FTL-travel on AT LEAST 4 ship classes used before/during the 2RW: Tokugawa-class Medium Battleship, Tristar-class Large Cruiser, Binary-class Battlecruiser and Ikazuchi-class Cruiser.

And we know children came after, as there's Maia Sterling, Marcus Rush, Alex Romero and countless others. So why wouldn't there be other civilians?

That STILL doesn't mean they're on the SDF-3 at launch.

Yes, I can

No, apparently you can't.

At most you'd have Bowie's parents gone for a few years instead of like "Well, Bowie, have a nice life with Uncle Rolf. See ya around kid!" and noping off to points unknown (let alone Max and Miriya joining Vince and Jean for being the biggest Dirtbag Parents Award).

Read it again.

That's a definitive statement about the Sterlings and the Grant's parenting.

No, its not.

In fact you've been constantly blasting them about not communicating even the FTL was available.

YOU are the one saying there was no FTL-comm, inventing every kind of idiotic and inane reasoning to claim there is none when there is not a SINGLE shred of proof of such a statement BEFORE the start of the 2RW.

Now you're saying that they were in communication for her to know about her brother

I have been consistent, from the start, there is no reason for there not to be constant communication and rotation of troops/personnel FROM THE START until the start of the 2RW.

And now you're saying that Max and Miriya aren't even on the SDF-3 together?

What proof do you have that they are assigned to the SDF-3 at the same time?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:35 am

ShadowLogan wrote:Which leads me to think they had to have made allowances for family on the bigger ship(s) of the fleet. You'd also need to make allowances for onboard "activities" that could result in children, possibly even other missions the ship(s) could undertake. And it isn't like the bigger ships don't have the room (per AotSC the SDF-3 and Tok.-class can support over 100,000 people, but only have a crew of a few thousand or so leaving plenty of margin for children).

That still doesn't mean they're aboard those ships during the mission. Why would they be? They can safely give birth at one of the FacSats or back on Earth. Its not like "Well, sir, I got my wife pregnant last night" and BAM, kid pops out the next day.

And I do agree that the UEEF had the infrastructure to do crew rotations, but we do not know how often those crews are rotated Or how long a given ship was expected to operate before returning to base Or interact with resupply vessels, etc.

I agree. That's details that SHOULD be explored instead of hand-waved away as not existing because there is a significant amount of inconvenient dialogue regarding FTL-travel and FTL-comm.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:47 pm

RSCF wrote:That still doesn't mean they're aboard those ships during the mission. Why would they be? They can safely give birth at one of the FacSats or back on Earth. Its not like "Well, sir, I got my wife pregnant last night" and BAM, kid pops out the next day.

As far as getting pregnant yeah, I know it takes 9months to gestate. Though there could still be complications they would have to plan for on just the medical front (pre-natal, pre-mature birth, etc) that could result in children being present on the ship (unlikely at departure from this front).

The Horizon-T crewmember does say they were all born out in deep space aboard a robotech ship, which unfortunately leaves a lot of flexibility in how that works for the UEEF. Even if it requires them to do something stupid like putting children on a warship.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:08 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:Even if it requires them to do something stupid like putting children on a warship.

Even if the statement is flexible doesn't mean it HAS to be that babies are born on warships. And since I envision a constant rotation in/out of Earth with all manner of ships, such as using the Roc-class Multipurpose Shuttle in the same manner it was in SDC: Southern Cross opening reel: moving civilains, there is no reason say those babies can't be born on such trips. And again, a constant rotation means a number of things: mail from home, discharge/mustering out and returning to Earth, etc.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:37 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:How would Dana know about him if he were born later? If there's communications, why didn't she say she had a sister too? Maia is 19 in TSC. She would have been 5 during TRM. If born after the launch of the SDF-3, the oldest her brother could be is 8. Why tell Dana about a brother but not a sister? It makes no sense.

2044-19=2025 for Mia.

The SDF-3 left in 2022. A 3 year gap for her brother to be born in.

As to the Why no communication about it? I am not going to speculate.

Mai was born in 2025. That episode took place in 2029 or 2030. That's 7-8 years in which the son could have been born. Maia is the youngest daughter. She may not be the youngest child. For all we know she could be a twin and she was born first. There's lots of things we're not told, or have been changed over the years. If there's communications, it makes no sense to mention one and not the other.

Sambot · Unread post by **Sambot** » Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:23 pm

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Sambot wrote:When does Lang decide if women can get pregnant and give birth or not?

The SDF-3 is a military ship. There are hundreds of other ships in the Interstellar Fleet as well as 3 Factory Satellites where they could give birth. And, again, I have always maintained the REF has FTL-travel across multiple platforms and there is literally no reason for there not to be constant rotation.

That doesn't answer my question. In fact it brings up others. What interstellar fleet? Where are these hundreds of ships? Of those ship classes you've mentioned, they were all military. Why can women give birth on them but not the SDF-3? Where's the other two factory satellites?

Also, FTL travel was never in question. However, FTL is not instantaneous as seen in Macross. How long does it take to get to Tirol? Maybe going to Earth would take too long so troops vacation on Tirol or some other planet? If troops were rotating back to Earth, why wouldn't the ASC know what's going on with the REF?

Doesn't canon have Scott being born in space?

No, Mars. It was one of the crewmen on the Horizon he was on that said that. And that STILL doesn't mean there was no constant rotation/contact between Earth and deep space until the start of the 2RW.

Mars isn't space. And yes, troops from Mars could rotate to and from Earth. Although, I thought Scott hadn't been to Earth before. Still, the distance and travel time to and from Earth to Mars is far less than it is between Earth and Tirol.

So children were onboard the SDF-3 at launch.

NO. THERE. WERE. NOT. You're assuming "born on a spaceship out in deep space" = SDF-3 and not the hundreds of other ships in the Interstellar Fleet, but also the Factory Satellites (3 at last count). And that's still IRRELEVANT to the fact the UEF has FTL-comm on everything that can support it, including Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles, and FTL-travel on AT LEAST 4 ship classes used before/during the 2RW: Tokugawa-class Medium Battleship, Tristar-class Large Cruiser, Binary-class Battlecruiser and Ikazuchi-class Cruiser.

No, I'm not. You are however assuming that pregnant women could not give birth on the SDF-3. That can happen where a pregnant woman goes into labor. That could be the SDF-3 or that could be on one of these hundreds of other ships we don't see. And where are the other two factory satellites? I know of one from Viva Miriya that was remodeled for The Sentinels. Where's the other two? And where are those classes of ships? I didn't see them in the Sentinels. Not that ship classes are relevant to a woman giving birth. That'll happen on whatever class of ship the baby decides to come out on.

I didn't know having FTL com systems was a requirement to giving birth either. I thought women had been giving birth long before there was electricity. What happens if FTL Com systems aren't available when a woman goes into labor? I better make sure my OBGYN has a FTL com system available just in case. I wouldn't want to break any telecommunications laws. Are they transportable for women who want a home birth or can't get to the hospital?

And we know children came after, as there's Maia Sterling, Marcus Rush, Alex Romero and countless others. So why wouldn't there be other civilians?

That STILL doesn't mean they're on the SDF-3 at launch.

That doesn't mean there weren't either.

Yes, I can

No, apparently you can't.

At most you'd have Bowie's parents gone for a few years instead of like "Well, Bowie, have a nice life with Uncle Rolf. See ya around kid!" and noping off to points unknown (let alone Max and Miriya joining Vince and Jean for being the biggest Dirtbag Parents Award).

Read it again.

That's a definitive statement about the Sterlings and the Grant's parenting.

No, its not.

I don't need to. You clearly have Vince, Jean, Max, and Miriya as recipients of the biggest Dirtbag Parents Award. There is no if, no nomination. You have Max and Miriya joining Vince and Jean in receiving the award.

In fact you've been constantly blasting them about not communicating even the FTL was available.

YOU are the one saying there was no FTL-comm, inventing every kind of idiotic and inane reasoning to claim there is none when there is not a SINGLE shred of proof of such a statement BEFORE the start of the 2RW.

Wrong. I never said there wasn't FTL Communications. I said that there were valid reasons for them not using such systems.

Now you're saying that they were in communication for her to know about her brother

I have been consistent, from the start, there is no reason for there not to be constant communication and rotation of troops/personnel FROM THE START until the start of the 2RW.

You've been complaining that there was no communication but you say there was communication for Dana to know about her brother. That is a contradiction. Now you're adding in troop rotation. Even FTL travel takes time. That is clearly seen in Macross. Tirol is pretty dang far from Earth. It's a whole lot further from the Earth than Mars is. A lot of troops aren't going to spend their entire leave traveling back to Earth. They're sure not going to try when the travel time is longer than their leave. And that presumes there was constant travel to and from. Travel we do not see in the series. If there was, the ASC would have been up to date on events with the REF. Which we know didn't happen from the series with Carpenter's arrival.

And now you're saying that Max and Miriya aren't even on the SDF-3 together?

What proof do you have that they are assigned to the SDF-3 at the same time?

What other ship was available when the SDF-3 was launched?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Which leads me to think they had to have made allowances for family on the bigger ship(s) of the fleet. You'd also need to make allowances for onboard "activities" that could result in children, possibly even other missions the ship(s) could undertake. And it isn't like the bigger ships don't have the room (per AotSC the SDF-3 and Tok.-class can support over 100,000 people, but only have a crew of a few thousand or so leaving plenty of margin for children).

That still doesn't mean they're aboard those ships during the mission. Why would they be? They can safely give birth at one of the FacSats or back on Earth. Its not like "Well, sir, I got my wife pregnant last night" and BAM, kid pops out the next day.

Why wouldn't you put the best pilots on the ship going towards a planet with unknown but presumed highly advanced defenses, just in case hostilities do break out?

And pregnancies do happen. Birth control isn't 100% effective. Not every baby waits 9 months to be born either. Not that she needs to be on the ship for all 9 months. She could have been pregnant when she boarded the ship. Premature births also happen. I would hope that facilities to care for children would be present on any ship women served on.

And I do agree that the UEEF had the infrastructure to do crew rotations, but we do not know how often those crews are rotated Or how long a given ship was expected to operate before returning to base Or interact with resupply vessels, etc.

I agree. That's details that SHOULD be explored instead of hand-waved away as not existing because there is a significant amount of inconvenient dialogue regarding FTL-travel and FTL-comm.

It would be nice if crew rotations were discussed. Not just how long they're on duty but where they'd spend their leave. Wasn't Carpenter and his crew on their ship for years? A child born early in the mission could be a toddler or older at the end. And with such long service times, I wouldn't think they'd go too far from the ship. Presuming they had some where to go. Like a crew from a cruise ship going ashore at an island stop for a day or so instead of spending a day or two flying home and back. Only in this case the ship would be orbiting a friendly planet or space station. It would also be a good reason for the really big ships to have a civilian block on board. It would boost the crew's moral, and something to do when on leave and give them someplace to care for children born along the way.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Even if it requires them to do something stupid like putting children on a warship.

Even if the statement is flexible doesn't mean it HAS to be that babies are born on warships. And since I envision a constant rotation in/out of Earth with all manner of ships, such as using the Roc-class Multipurpose Shuttle in the same manner it was in SDC: Southern Cross opening reel: moving civilains, there is no reason say those babies can't be born on such trips. And again, a constant rotation means a number of things: mail from home, discharge/mustering out and returning to Earth, etc.

What you envision would be nice but doesn't match up with the series. I could see ships and bases close by rotating personnel to and from Earth but the REF seems to be too far away for that to be practical. Again, it took Carpenter arriving for the ASC to know what was going on. That says there isn't routine ship traffic to and from by the REF. It's probable that such a trip just takes too long to be practical. That leaves keeping the pregnant women and children onboard ship unless there were someplace closer they could be offloaded.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:11 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:I've never heard of a child playing pretend as role-playing even if it technically is.

It is an industry term the producers use AFAIK and not used at the consumer level (Pretend is) though an online search (@ Amazon) for "role play toys" does turn up results (and in general search using google gets linked back to Pretend Play).

And yet still again it is Role Playing (RP) not Role Playing Games (RPG).

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:08 am

Sambot wrote:What interstellar fleet?

The one that is shown in the Tv series. Part of it came back in Mind Games. Another is seen before the start of the Final Offensive in Catastrophe.

Where are these hundreds of ships?

If you actually BOTHERED to watch the series, you WOULD SEE THEM.

Of those ship classes you've mentioned, they were all military. Why can women give birth on them but not the SDF-3?

Why would the REF have pregnant women on a ship that almost certainly was going into combat?

Where's the other two factory satellites?

The ones captured in Viva Miriya (Little Luna, aka The Automated Factory), the one captured later seen in The Sentinels (and yes, it IS a different one because Max says they had to sneak aboard it, so it can't be Little Luna as Max and Miriya were only aboard Reno's flagship) and finally Space Station Liberty (which is shown in Shadow Chronicles to be a Factory Satellite).

However, FTL is not instantaneous as seen in Macross.

The minimum lag time is 10 days. However, as I've said TWICE NOW, the time lag from False Start (when Earth is completely interdicted) to Outsiders (when Carpenter arrives back at Earth) is 5 weeks MAXIMUM because the dialogue says "a few weeks", which is considered a number between 3 and 5.

How long does it take to get to Tirol?

Don't know, because they REF is NOT AT Tirol before the Invid Invasion. Otherwise, Carpenter's crew would have identified The Masters ships and Hunter would have known who the Invid were.

Maybe going to Earth would take too long so troops vacation on Tirol or some other planet? If troops were rotating back to Earth, why wouldn't the ASC know what's going on with the REF?

God almighty, the REF HAD NOT FOUND TIROL BY THE 2RW/THE INVID INVASION! Carpenter's crew CANNOT IDENTIFY TIROLIAN SHIPS. ADMIRAL HUNTER DID NOT KNOW WHO THE INVID WERE!

No, I'm not. You are however assuming that pregnant women could not give birth on the SDF-3. That can happen where a pregnant woman goes into labor.

WHY WOULD THERE BE PREGNANT WOMEN ON A WARSHIP?

I know of one from Viva Miriya that was remodeled for The Sentinels. Where's the other two?

Its not remodeled. Its a different one. Max's dialogue establishes that.

And where are those classes of ships? I didn't see them in the Sentinels.

The big red shell being put over the SDF-3 in The Sentinels video IS NOT THE SDF-3 ITSELF. Its the exoskeleton of a Zentraedi Battlecruiser. You can also see in scenes that its HOLLOW under the outer armor. The real SDF-3 is underneath. And Robotech Art 3, in the series outline, clearly states on page 65 that inside the shell is an armada of Earth warships.

I don't need to. You clearly have Vince, Jean, Max, and Miriya as recipients of the biggest Dirtbag Parents Award. There is no if, no nomination. You have Max and Miriya joining Vince and Jean in receiving the award.

IF THEY NOPED OFF FOREVER AND LEFT THEIR KID BEHIND.

I said that there were valid reasons for them not using such systems.

NO THERE ISN'T. The REF is SUPPOSED to be for the defense of the Earth. How the hell is the Earth SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING with the REF if they are operating under complete radio silence?

You've been complaining that there was no communication

DURING THE 2RW BECAUSE THE MASTERS INTERDICTED COMMS!

Now you're adding in troop rotation. Even FTL travel takes time. That is clearly seen in Macross. Tirol is pretty dang far from Earth. It's a whole lot further from the Earth than Mars is. A lot of troops aren't going to spend their entire leave traveling back to Earth. They're sure not going to try when the travel time is longer than their leave. And that presumes there was constant travel to and from. Travel we do not see in the series. If there was, the ASC would have been up to date on events with the REF. Which we know didn't happen from the series with Carpenter's arrival.

Are you drunk posting or something? Because its reading like you haven't actually read a thing I've written.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:24 am

I think it's time for a cool down.