Diabolist Nukes

[W.R.Xavier1]

So one of my players feels he has found a loophole in the Diabolist creation of wards. Outside of throwing down the heavy hand of the GM I'd figure I'd get some educated responses on here.

Scenario: Diabolist gets a stick/log and inscribes it with a series of interlinked wards. Goes through all the necessary motions of creation but holds off on charging any of them. Once the inscription is done carries said piece of wood around until a combat situation arises and then charges them all at one time. As they are immune to their own ward effect they drop said stick at their feet and/or toss it slightly ahead of them and wait for the areas effects to go off on their enemies.

Thoughs if this is stretching and/or breaking the ward use creation rules. I'm of the opnion that it does not work that way, but made the mistake when I was not brushed up on my ward creation rules as GM to allow it once as I did not want to stop a large scale combat to research and made a snap judgement call.

[kiralon]

Page 125 of the second ed book helps here. Just above ward limitations.

But remember empowered wards can be set off by jostling/throwing on the ground.

[Library Ogre]

What you can do instead is inscribe them, along with an area effect symbol. In combat, power them, then set them off. Gotta be away from your friends (or not care about them all that much), but if you've got a long enough ward chain, you're going to rip people apart.

[foilfodder]

On the chance that you are using 1st edition the information on Diablist wards is on page 107.

If the Area Effect Ward was what your player diabolist was attempting to use it would not work as key words in the section of Area of Affect Wards are "placed on large immobile object". Thus he can not have it on a stick and drop the warded item when he wants to actviate/use it.

Any other combination of Wards may have worked; depending on the description of each.

[kiralon]

2nd ed book mentions that the diabolist can do it as it's their ward arsenal.

However I would make the wards go off if thrown or even placed on the ground as movement can set them off. They would have to be placed in location and then empowered.
And remember only 1 ward/phrase per PE point per 24 hrs can be activated.

[The Beast]

So one of my players feels he has found a loophole in the Diabolist creation of wards. Outside of throwing down the heavy hand of the GM I'd figure I'd get some educated responses on here.

Scenario: Diabolist gets a stick/log and inscribes it with a series of interlinked wards. Goes through all the necessary motions of creation but holds off on charging any of them. Once the inscription is done carries said piece of wood around until a combat situation arises and then charges them all at one time. As they are immune to their own ward effect they drop said stick at their feet and/or toss it slightly ahead of them and wait for the areas effects to go off on their enemies.

Thoughs if this is stretching and/or breaking the ward use creation rules. I'm of the opnion that it does not work that way, but made the mistake when I was not brushed up on my ward creation rules as GM to allow it once as I did not want to stop a large scale combat to research and made a snap judgement call.

Wards cannot be painted on a fabric to be unrolled at a moment of crisis, nor can they be inscribed on discs, stones, arrows, weapons or objects and used as hand grenades; setting off a magic ward the moment it strikes somebody, is stepped on, or touched.

Based on that part, I'd say tossing the object with the ward on it is certainly out. I'm leaning toward agreeing with kiralon that any movement would set them off.

[Library Ogre]

On the chance that you are using 1st edition the information on Diablist wards is on page 107.

If the Area Effect Ward was what your player diabolist was attempting to use it would not work as key words in the section of Area of Affect Wards are "placed on large immobile object". Thus he can not have it on a stick and drop the warded item when he wants to actviate/use it.

Any other combination of Wards may have worked; depending on the description of each.

You omit a clause that change that significantly.

"Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself. If the warded object is moved, it goes off instantly, affecting that area." Additionally, there is "Only the Diabolist who made the wards can move the object without causing them to go off."

You may scribe the ward, but do not immediately activate it; this is covered in "The Ward Phrase". That you can carry unenergized wards is stated repeatedly, but check "The Ward Arsenal". So, if you scribe a ward phrase with Area Affect, but do not energize it, you can carry it around. When needed, you then take a moment to energize the ward, then another moment to force its activation (since, as the diabolist, you can move an energized area affect ward without setting it off).

[foilfodder]

Back to the original poster, there is also additional rules beyond page 107 which I did not feel was necessary to quote as the case the original poster had presented was already identified as a misuse. Specifically third paragraph under heading AREA AFFECT on page 108,

"However, an item in use, such as articles of clothing, weapons, tools, utensils, armour, etc. cannot have an area affect ward placed on them."

I would say that a stick or log the player carries with them qualfies as similar to a tool under the "etc" clause, thus is prohibited from carrying the AREA AFFECT.

[foilfodder]

On the chance that you are using 1st edition the information on Diablist wards is on page 107.

If the Area Effect Ward was what your player diabolist was attempting to use it would not work as key words in the section of Area of Affect Wards are "placed on large immobile object". Thus he can not have it on a stick and drop the warded item when he wants to actviate/use it.

Any other combination of Wards may have worked; depending on the description of each.

You omit a clause that change that significantly.

"Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself. If the warded object is moved, it goes off instantly, affecting that area." Additionally, there is "Only the Diabolist who made the wards can move the object without causing them to go off."

You may scribe the ward, but do not immediately activate it; this is covered in "The Ward Phrase". That you can carry unenergized wards is stated repeatedly, but check "The Ward Arsenal". So, if you scribe a ward phrase with Area Affect, but do not energize it, you can carry it around. When needed, you then take a moment to energize the ward, then another moment to force its activation (since, as the diabolist, you can move an energized area affect ward without setting it off).

Mark, I am extremely confused by your statement to me "You omit a clause that change that significantly" and the text you put in quotes:

1) The section I identified in my post, AREA AFFECT WARDS is located on page 107. It deals specifically with AREA AFFECT wards.
2) The sections you quoted seem to be paraphase rather than direct quotes, thus I am having trouble identifying your sources which seem to be paraphrasing of TRIGGERING (SPECIAL ALARM) as well as IMMUNITY and AUTHORIATION which are also locationed on page 107
3) TRIGGERING relates only to ALARM WARD use, which can be connected a AREA AFFECT ward, or any other ward per normal rules. But ALARM WARDS do not carry the same limitations as AREA WARDS which is why I was very specific in identifying the case I presented as involving AREA AFFECT ward specifically.

Could you please clarify your arguement that I "omit a clause that change that significantly" relating specifically to AREA AFFECT ward types rather than parapharsing from unrelated sections and ALARM WARDS?

[kiralon]

1st ed also had ward errata in adventures on the high seas page 27

16. The Diabolist: Can wards be placed on weapons to do more damage?
NO!!! Wards are sensitive to physical pressure and movement and will go
off instantly when touched, jostled or moved. Again, the gun analogy
comes to mind. Wards are a mystic device which can not think or react.
At best, they can be somewhat directed, like pointing a gun at a specific
target, by runes, numbers, trigger wards, protection wards, infliction
wards and area affect wards. Once directed (and activated), the ward
is a loaded gun with a hair-trigger, ready to go off.
If a ward is placed on a weapon, it will go off the instant it is drawn or
moved, or bumped. If the ward is the usual type, designed to affect the
person touching it, it will have no affect on its creator who has just drawn
it. If it's an area affect, it will afflict everybody in the area, friend or foe.
Imagine the consequences of an area affect ward going off because the
person with the warded object stumbled or the object is bumped or jerked.
Boom. It goes off, and people all around it are hit. Placing active wards
on weapons or objects that are being used or moved just can not be done.
However , the diabolist can place a ward on a weapon, book, tool, statue,
etc, that is not being used. Meaning an item that is placed on a shelf or
put in a drawer and so on, because it is stationary . If somebody picks it
up or touches it, then the ward goes off affecting that person.

22. The Diabolist: What do you mean by "ward arsenal" if the wards can't be used on weapons?
The diabolist can carve, mould, prepare and draw ward symbols in advance,
without activating them with power words. The creation of a particular ward
symbol and its proper affixing can take as little as one melee/minute or
several hours. If the symbol, or substances for making a particular symbol, is already
prepared, the diabolist can activate it immediately after affixing it. Speed can be a crucial
factor in many situations. There is no limit, save time requirements and weight, as to how
many inactivated wards can be prepared in advance and carried by the mage.
These prepared, but unactivated, wards and components constitute the ward arsenal.

[Library Ogre]

Could you please clarify your arguement that I "omit a clause that change that significantly" relating specifically to AREA AFFECT ward types rather than parapharsing from unrelated sections and ALARM WARDS?

I see the confusion; you were referencing the 1st edition text; I had taken the change in paragraph to indicate returning to the original context, and was quoting from those sections.

However, the restrictions on area affect in 1e are somewhat inconsistent. If you look at page 108, under "Area Affect" you find

An area affect ward symbol can be placed on items not being used as well as floors, walls, ceiling, so that if that item is touched or disturbed everybody within the area will be affected. However, an item in use, such as articles of clothing, weapons, tools, utensils, armour, etc. cannot have an area affect ward placed on them.

So, an area affect ward can be placed on non-massive items, explicitly. For the diabolist to use them, we have, on page 107 under Immunity:

The diabolist who created the wards is immune to their affects and cannot trigger them by touching or disturbing them. Consequently, he can pick up a book he covered with wards with no reaction but someone else touching it will set off the wards. Even if some unauthorized person sets off an area affect ward the diabolist is not affected if he was the creator of the ward.

Additionally, on page 104, we have an explicit statement that wards can be pre-created, but not energized; "A diabolist can prepare/ create an arsenal of wards all awaiting activation."

So, the basic premise that I worked under remains possible in 1e; it is explicit in the text, in much the same fashion I described. It is, in fact, easier to accomplish, as there is no need (or ability) to force activate the ward, but the ward will still activate if touched by another person. The diabolist creates, but does not activate an area affect ward, on some object that will be touched by others (a shield, for example)*. Upon entering combat, the diabolist activates the ward and, when the object is struck, the ward discharges.

As I often say, Palladium Books are not closely written or edited. They often contain discrepancies, such as stating that area affect can only be placed on stationary objects, but also saying it can be placed on objects not in use (not in use by the diabolist, at least).

*Shields are preferred for several reasons. First of all, they provide a fairly large, relatively flat surface on which to create the ward; ideally, the diabolist will create the ward on the inside surface of the shield, to allow easy activation. Secondly, they are an object likely to be struck in combat, ensuring that the ward discharges. Lastly, they are protective gear, and a diabolist can become proficient in the small shield.

[foilfodder]

Could you please clarify your arguement that I "omit a clause that change that significantly" relating specifically to AREA AFFECT ward types rather than parapharsing from unrelated sections and ALARM WARDS?

I see the confusion; you were referencing the 1st edition text; I had taken the change in paragraph to indicate returning to the original context, and was quoting from those sections.

So, the basic premise that I worked under remains possible in 1e; it is explicit in the text, in much the same fashion I described. It is, in fact, easier to accomplish, as there is no need (or ability) to force activate the ward, but the ward will still activate if touched by another person. The diabolist creates, but does not activate an area affect ward, on some object that will be touched by others (a shield, for example)*. Upon entering combat, the diabolist activates the ward and, when the object is struck, the ward discharges.

As I often say, Palladium Books are not closely written or edited. They often contain discrepancies, such as stating that area affect can only be placed on stationary objects, but also saying it can be placed on objects not in use (not in use by the diabolist, at least).

Okay, I see where you are coming from now that you have been more specific. Your statements do not change my interuptation of the rules however. Additionally, you have put your own paraphrasing rather than a direct quote of the rules, "So, an area affect ward can be placed on non-massive items, explicitly" regarding the rules on page 108 rather than citing the actual text.

To avoid confusing the rules-as-written with personal interpretation I have listed and properly quoted the three sections we have been discussing from the Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game 1st edition:

(1) AREA AFFECT p. 107

All area affect wards must have the area affect symbol. They can be placed on large immobile objects such as floors, walls, doors ways, ceilings, etc., but not portable items...

(2) IMMUNITY p. 107

The diabloist who created the wards is immune to their affects and cannot trigger them by touching to distrubing them. Consquently, he can pick up a book he covered with wards with no reaction but someone else touching it will set off the wards. Even if some unauthorized person sets off an area affect ward the diabloist is not affected if he was the creator of the ward.

(3) AREA AFFECT p. 108

An area affect ward symbol can be placed on items not being used as well as floors, walls, ceiling, so that if that item is touched or disturbed everybody within the area will be affected. However, an item in use, such as articles of clothing, weapons, tools, utensils, armour, etc. cannot have an area affect ward placed on them.

So per (1) and (3) special rules applying to AREA AFFECT symbol/ward but not all symbols/ward. There are no special limitations presented in the section regarding (2) IMMUNITY
#1) not portable items (per AREA AFFECT(1) p. 107)
#2) item cannot be "in use" (per AREA AFFECT(3) p. 108)

The original poster raising was if " they [meaning the player diabloist] drop said stick at their feet and/or toss it slightly ahead of them and wait for the areas effects to go off " was a valid use of wards.

Scenario: Diabolist gets a stick/log and inscribes it with a series of interlinked wards. Goes through all the necessary motions of creation but holds off on charging any of them. Once the inscription is done carries said piece of wood around until a combat situation arises and then charges them all at one time. As they are immune to their own ward effect they drop said stick at their feet and/or toss it slightly ahead of them and wait for the areas effects to go off on their enemies.

Again, the AREA AFFECT ward/symbol (and only that ward) carries special conditions not restricting other wards/symbols. The diabloist can carry and throw objects with charged symbols/wards, but not the AREA AFFECT ward. The events above would be a violation of rule #1 as the "stick/log" in the original posters example is a portable item the diabloist charges the AREA AFFECT ward while carrying then throwing/dropping said item.

Per your reply Mark, it seems you have decided that the text on page 107 "AREA AFFECT"(1) regarding but not portable items conflicts with your interpretation of page 107 "IMMUNITY"(2) and page 108 "AREA AFFECT"(3) regarding Items not being used so you choose to ignore rules regarding but not portable items. You are free to make your choice to ignore text which conflicts with your point of view. I would choose to find an interpretation which satisfies all rules as written which I believe my previous answer did. Thus, I suggest that rather Items not being used could be an immensely large immobile object such as a throne or podium afixed to the ground or structure. Thus, the rules on page 107 regarding not portable items remain valid with my interpretation.

I am not debating this with you trying to sway you from your point of view, which you have obviously done considerable reading, thinking and posting. I am defending my stance and earlier statements from your interpretation which stated I had "ommited" important rules. I do agree with you that Palladium rules are sometimes very subject to personal interpretation. You are free to keep yours but I believe that the view I previously presented is accurate and does not omit relevent clauses.

Obviously, the original poster and each player/game master will have their own opinions which may not agree with either of us.

[kiralon]

I find that portable is too subjective to be a useful limiter as the meaning is different for different people/creatures.
What if the ward maker is only 6 inches tall, the portable list is now different from the 20ft tall ward maker.
Someone with a strength of 3 has a different list of portable items than someone with a strength of 24.
What if you put the aoe ward on a plank and then glue or nail the plank to the floor when you want to activate.
Or your resident mage increases the weight of whatever the ward sequence is on to 600kg, definitely not portable now.
Can you have area affect on a wagon, a ship, how about a flying castle, an elevator, a moving wall in a maze, do they work on doors.

The book does say it can be put on items and walls but also not on portable things (and i think this bit is supposed to say when active), so I feel the meaning here is once activated you can't use it as a hand grenade, but can as a mine.
and they do contradict each other and the portable part makes the least sense to me.

[Hotrod]

So one of my players feels he has found a loophole in the Diabolist creation of wards. Outside of throwing down the heavy hand of the GM I'd figure I'd get some educated responses on here.

Scenario: Diabolist gets a stick/log and inscribes it with a series of interlinked wards. Goes through all the necessary motions of creation but holds off on charging any of them. Once the inscription is done carries said piece of wood around until a combat situation arises and then charges them all at one time. As they are immune to their own ward effect they drop said stick at their feet and/or toss it slightly ahead of them and wait for the areas effects to go off on their enemies.

Thoughs if this is stretching and/or breaking the ward use creation rules. I'm of the opnion that it does not work that way, but made the mistake when I was not brushed up on my ward creation rules as GM to allow it once as I did not want to stop a large scale combat to research and made a snap judgement call.

With the caveat that using wards in an immediate and controlled way requires force activation (dropping them would be less reliable), this is 100% legal per canon, and it is one of several tricks I used in creating the best villain N.P.C. I've ever made. Diabolist area effect wards are crazy potent. However, there are limits:

Diabolists can only activate a certain number of wards per day, and an area-effect death ward is going to be at least 2 per phrase.
P.P.E. is also a limitation. Diabolists don't have a particularly big pool, charging them is done on the spot, and force-activating them costs a little extra. This is especially limiting at lower levels, when the ward strength is lower (more saves) and the potency/damage is lower, as the diabolist will need to iterate more ward phrases to subdue/kill foes.
Time is also a factor. Wards require power words. Try timing how long it takes to say the phrase activation words and make an estimate of the number of attacks required to say that. Then add one more for the force-activation. Doing this while getting attacked is going to require no interruptions.
Materials can be a factor, depending on the phrases he's planning.
Fratricide is also a problem; you may well drop your teammates too, unless you inscribe their true names on the ward phrase (more materials, more space required)
This approach is very gear-dependent. If you lose your ward arsenal or it gets destroyed (dissolved in water, burned, rubbed/scratched off), you're powerless. Most other mages can work naked if they have to.
Finally, ward magic just isn't as flexible as spell magic. You start with your full bag of tricks, and they get more powerful as you level, but you'll never be as versatile as a mage with a good array of spells.

[Reagren Wright]

I still have the letter I wrote to Kevin in 1990 where I asked him many of these questions as to why wards function as they do. He responded or Alex did
to see rules as to why you cannot make ward grenades. I understand why Kevin made wards function as they do in the game, the intent is clear, but the
implementation did not come out clear. He didn't want you making a permanent agony power area effect ward on your sword so you walk around zapping
everyone who comes near you. He didn't want magic throwing grenades. Wards are meant to be used in a non-offensive manner. Diabolist are scholars
able to write magical effects. One of the reasons I made Mosaic Mages as I did was to make a magic character class do somethings that I wish diabolists
and wizards could do.

[Hotrod]

That's a good point. Even with the power that Diabolists have to empower and force-activate a ward phrase on the fly, it's not a directed thing; it's an effect created around the Diabolist. The diabolist has to carry the ward phrase to the enemy, then empower and force-activate it. That's not impossible, but it's not exactly optimal when doing a charge or assault.

[Library Ogre]

Diabolists can only activate a certain number of wards per day, and an area-effect death ward is going to be at least 2 per phrase.

That's not the case. 2e, page 122, they can only activate a number of "wards or 'ward phrases' per day", meaning a complete ward (inflict fire area affect, for example) is one "ward phrase", and someone with a PE of 10 could activate 10 of those per day. However, they'd have to pay for all three.. and Wards are pretty cheap, PPE wise. That ward phrase is 3 PPE; with a 10 PPE, you could do 10 of those in a day, and are definitely going to have enough PPE to do them all in a few rounds.

[Hotrod]

Diabolists can only activate a certain number of wards per day, and an area-effect death ward is going to be at least 2 per phrase.

That's not the case. 2e, page 122, they can only activate a number of "wards or 'ward phrases' per day", meaning a complete ward (inflict fire area affect, for example) is one "ward phrase", and someone with a PE of 10 could activate 10 of those per day. However, they'd have to pay for all three.. and Wards are pretty cheap, PPE wise. That ward phrase is 3 PPE; with a 10 PPE, you could do 10 of those in a day, and are definitely going to have enough PPE to do them all in a few rounds.

Ah, you're quite right, thanks for clearing that up about the wards per day.

I hadn't looked at P.P.E. costs for wards in a while. Here's what I found when I looked today:

To make the "Diabolist Nuke" work, you need, at a minimum,
Inflict (1 P.P.E.)
Area Effect (1 P.P.E.)
Condition (1 P.P.E.)
Force-Activation (2 P.P.E.)

For a total of 5 P.P.E. Yeah, that's fairly cheap, though other wards might also be needed/appropriate for a given situation (the basic version would be indiscriminate).

Diabolists start with 2D4x10 P.P.E. at level 1, so they have a median of 50 P.P.E. An average diabolist could thus do 10 of these basic, indiscriminate ward phrases per day. A diabolist with an unlucky roll on P.P.E. could do four of these per day.

All in all, this isn't quite as limiting as I thought it might be, but its P.P.E. and ward activation limitations are such that players who want to use this trick can't just let fly with it in every encounter, either.