Training Unlimited?

[gaby]

They can wokr it a Golden age and Plup setting.

[zerombr]

I'd take it. Granted its meant to be the Gotham to Century Station's Metropolis.

[Omegavs]

You could just copy/paste the needed material from the PDF files into a new document (for personal use) but that sounds expensive and time consuming.

[gaby]

Love the Super training types,What do you think the best abilities for each from Rifter?

[Sambot]

Would anyone buy a book that's made up of the Physical Training, Stage Magician, and Super Sleuth articles from the Rifter, along with similar upgrades for the other Special Training types (Ancient Master, Hunter/Vigilante, and Special Operative), the Ancient Weapon Master from Powers Unlimited 2 (unless that gets folded into the Ancient Master), possibly a few new ones (e.g., Professional Thief), and maybe even something like the Natural Genius from Heroes Unlimited 2 (as a sort of complement to the Physical Training upgrade)? Basically, a book dedicated to heroes who are extraordinary not because of any powers or exotic equipment, but because of the training they've undergone.

I would

[Rogerd]

The whole things needs expanding upon, and streamlining.

For instance there are too many powers that are essentially mind over matter. They need cutting into three or four core ones.

Various minor superpowers need adding.

Stage Magician is fine for 80's games, but has no place in a cuurent game.

Weapon Master needs some extra abilities, some xan be stolen from Pal Fantasy and needs adding to again. You could probably include the Shih from Mystic China too, sans chi powers. They should contrast with ancient master, but be different.

[zerombr]

the stage mage is a tough sell, I admit, its great for a Leverage/heist/covert/social kinda game, but even on its best day its not going to handle the Hulk.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think the categories are meant to emulate those things that are in comics. Magician characters are in comics, thus they are in the book.

[Regularguy]

the stage mage is a tough sell, I admit, its great for a Leverage/heist/covert/social kinda game, but even on its best day its not going to handle the Hulk.

You know, arguably the only smart tactic for any Special Training type in that kind of situation would involve Leverage/heist/covert/social stuff...

[Rogerd]

I think the categories are meant to emulate those things that are in comics. Magician characters are in comics, thus they are in the book.

Absolutely, but most magician type characters are actual mages like John Constantine. Pitting a Stage Magician against Batman will go very badly for the stage mage.

Now if you took out Chi powers from Ninjas and Superspies, put in Stage Magician to replicate that 80's feel, that would totally work.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think it depends on the type of game you are playing. The Special Training Categories were meant to be on the level of minor heroes.

[Rogerd]

I think it depends on the type of game you are playing. The Special Training Categories were meant to be on the level of minor heroes.

Absolutely, I agree.

But the Stage Magician is just rubbish and not on their level. Look at Arrow, the League of Asassins, or the League of Shadows from Batman trilogy. All have basic ninja type stage tricks. You chuck a SM against one they would get butchered.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think that's why there have been a couple attempts to improve the Stage Magician in the Rifter.

[Rogerd]

I think that's why there have been a couple attempts to improve the Stage Magician in the Rifter.

Aah I see, that would explain things. Although it seems too 80's for modern day., but YMMV I guess.

In a Ninja's and Superspies, retro game, where you have a Ninja Master, Bionic man and James Bond, and Stage Magician could work really good as a set of cast members. No one has any powers really, you could have a good adventure as everyone woukd bring sonething to the table.

[Stone Gargoyle]

A lot of Heroes Unlimited is dated. Why does that surprise you? If you play only from the core rulebook, all you have is a retro game. None of the bionics or robotics are up to modern day ability.

[Rogerd]

A lot of Heroes Unlimited is dated. Why does that surprise you? If you play only from the core rulebook, all you have is a retro game. None of the bionics or robotics are up to modern day ability.

No, I absolutely get that.
I just do not see any way to update a stage magician to make them useful. They are a total joke of a hero.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I just do not see any way to update a stage magician to make them useful. They are a total joke of a hero.

I get that too. I guess you just have to pick and choose among the categories what works for you in your game.

[zerombr]

I disagree on one front. in his own comic, a good stage mage would work with Batman. Bats would win of course, but it'd be a good villain archetype. One of my favorite pictures shows Carmen Sandiego having infiltrated the Batcave and was making moves to steal his fake dinosaur, with Bats caught a bit offguard by it. In everything except showmanship, I do envision Carmen as being a stage mage. She's into impossible heists and misdirection all over the place, a cunning antihero/villain. I decided the Stage Mage had to be considered as an infiltrator and thief of legendary ability to even have a chance. Granted though the Secret Operative is still the better infiltrator

[Regularguy]

I disagree on one front. in his own comic, a good stage mage would work with Batman. Bats would win of course, but it'd be a good villain archetype.

Heck, in Batman’s own title, isn’t his archenemy a makeup-and-disguise expert with a knack for showmanship and a knowledge of chemistry? (And second place goes to a tuxedoed smuggler who conceals interesting stuff in an umbrella and hangs out with his nightclub contacts?)

I decided the Stage Mage had to be considered as an infiltrator and thief of legendary ability to even have a chance. Granted though the Secret Operative is still the better infiltrator

Is the Secret Operative better at pretending to be someone else?

[Rogerd]

I disagree on one front. in his own comic, a good stage mage would work with Batman. Bats would win of course, but it'd be a good villain archetype.

Heck, in Batman’s own title, isn’t his archenemy a makeup-and-disguise expert with a knack for showmanship and a knowledge of chemistry? (And second place goes to a tuxedoed smuggler who conceals interesting stuff in an umbrella and hangs out with his nightclub contacts?)

Lets not under sell either the Penguin, or the Joker. Neither are just this, or just that. Trying to say so is being massively disingenuous. Both are criminal masterminds, and the Joker is utterly psychotic that you could easily also give him the Crazy template too.

In essence Batman's enemies all heavily multiclass, just like the Bat. In fact there was an older comic in which Martian Manhunter (could gave been the Spectre) entered the Joker's mind. Expecting to find a chaotic wasteland finds an orderly white void. Also there was one Batman comic where he is assaulted by ninjas. In order to stop the bad guy who was a student of the same ninja master removes his glove - using vibrating palm to knock him out.

All because Batman would not kill him. It is this no-kill policy that has led to scores of online debates whether Batman is responsible, by default, of all the deaths on the Joker's hands. Had he chosen to kill the Joker, scores of people would still be alive.

[Regularguy]

Lets not under sell either the Penguin, or the Joker. Neither are just this, or just that. Trying to say so is being massively disingenuous. Both are criminal masterminds, and the Joker is utterly psychotic that you could easily also give him the Crazy template too.

...so what? Seems to me that being a criminal mastermind is a matter of how a character is played instead of category or powers; and that being utterly psychotic can be, too. And then you undercut your point, here:

All because Batman would not kill him. It is this no-kill policy that has led to scores of online debates whether Batman is responsible, by default, of all the deaths on the Joker's hands. Had he chosen to kill the Joker, scores of people would still be alive.

You’d said that pitting “a Stage Magician against Batman will go very badly for the stage mage.” But, as you point out here, Batman’s policy means the Stage Magician goes in with, as it were, an ace up his sleeve.

[Rogerd]

Lets not under sell either the Penguin, or the Joker. Neither are just this, or just that. Trying to say so is being massively disingenuous. Both are criminal masterminds, and the Joker is utterly psychotic that you could easily also give him the Crazy template too.

...so what? Seems to me that being a criminal mastermind is a matter of how a character is played instead of category or powers; and that being utterly psychotic can be, too. And then you undercut your point, here:

All because Batman would not kill him. It is this no-kill policy that has led to scores of online debates whether Batman is responsible, by default, of all the deaths on the Joker's hands. Had he chosen to kill the Joker, scores of people would still be alive.

You’d said that pitting “a Stage Magician against Batman will go very badly for the stage mage.” But, as you point out here, Batman’s policy means the Stage Magician goes in with, as it were, an ace up his sleeve.

1. Crminal mastermind would not be how it is played. They would have Crazy OCC, plus likely Genius. So multiclassing. And it is this ability to keep Batman on his toes, that shows they are not chumps.

2. Your last comnent is like you have never read Batman, and utterly wrong. Batman regularly puts the Joker behind bars, who then escapes to kill by the bucketload. Plus there is no trick a stage magician can do to make Bruce / Batman impressed, or not know how it is performed. Batman is a fully trained ninja, plus innumerable other martial arts, and fields of expertise.

There is a reason he is part of the trinity in DC, despite gaving zero powers. He did not get there by being easily fooler with parlour tricks. Coupled with in one comic having a contingency against every hero if they go bad. The man is paranoid, and runs risk analysis on everything. In addition to this, most of the fights he gets into, his opponents are more than happy to kill without remorse. So thinking this is an ace up a SM sleeve is laughable.

[Regularguy]

Lets not under sell either the Penguin, or the Joker. Neither are just this, or just that. Trying to say so is being massively disingenuous. Both are criminal masterminds, and the Joker is utterly psychotic that you could easily also give him the Crazy template too.

...so what? Seems to me that being a criminal mastermind is a matter of how a character is played instead of category or powers; and that being utterly psychotic can be, too. And then you undercut your point, here:

All because Batman would not kill him. It is this no-kill policy that has led to scores of online debates whether Batman is responsible, by default, of all the deaths on the Joker's hands. Had he chosen to kill the Joker, scores of people would still be alive.

You’d said that pitting “a Stage Magician against Batman will go very badly for the stage mage.” But, as you point out here, Batman’s policy means the Stage Magician goes in with, as it were, an ace up his sleeve.

1. Crminal mastermind would not be how it is played. They would have Crazy OCC, plus likely Genius. So multiclassing. And it is this ability to keep Batman on his toes, that shows they are not chumps.

I don’t see it that way. If you’re capable of playing a character like the Joker or the Penguin as a criminal mastermind, and possibly as crazy, then I figure I could hand you a character that’s a bulletproof alien with x-ray vision or whatever and you could play him like a criminal mastermind and possibly as crazy; you should likewise be able to take a mutant who can turn invisible, or a super sleuth with psionic powers, and say “I’ll play him like he’s a criminal mastermind, and possibly as crazy.”

2. Your last comnent is like you have never read Batman, and utterly wrong. Batman regularly puts the Joker behind bars, who then escapes to kill by the bucketload. Plus there is no trick a stage magician can do to make Bruce / Batman impressed, or not know how it is performed. Batman is a fully trained ninja, plus innumerable other martial arts, and fields of expertise.

The point is, as you say, that the Joker keeps managing to escape and kill people. He keeps escaping from locked rooms, and then lethally tricking people with his gimmicked joy buzzer or squirting flower or whatever, after which Batman keeps (a) showing up too late, and then (b) choosing to put him back in a now-escape-from-this scenario. Choosing to keep putting a successful killer back in a now-escape-from-this scenario is how you could play pretty much any character — Alien, Mutant, Super Sleuth, even a Stage Magician — because that’s a choice that’s up to the player.

Maybe if he were played as being impressed, he’d stop making that mistake.

[Rogerd]

I don’t see it that way. If you’re capable of playing a character like the Joker or the Penguin as a criminal mastermind, and possibly as crazy, then I figure I could hand you a character that’s a bulletproof alien with x-ray vision or whatever and you could play him like a criminal mastermind and possibly as crazy; you should likewise be able to take a mutant who can turn invisible, or a super sleuth with psionic powers, and say “I’ll play him like he’s a criminal mastermind, and possibly as crazy.”

These posts have always been about templates, or OOC. At no point have I mentioned how a character was being played, so where you got that idea I have no idea, heck you even quoted me saying Crazy OOC and Genius in my previous posts when referring to the Joker.

Maybe if he were played as being impressed, he’d stop making that mistake.

Maybe you should have a clue about the character you're commenting on - as this is utter rubbish. Batman regularly deals with individuals well out of his weight class.

http://pm1.narvii.com/7202/2e2c4b6e8815 ... v2_uhq.jpg

This is Batman talking about what the New Gods actually are. Why the heck would he even be impressed about a flimflam man like a stage magician. Answer, he wouldn't. Batman has helped deal with multiverse ending forces from the Dark Multiverse and the Batman Who Laughs. Sure he will deal with street level - but they're not really going to impress him very much, except for the amount of damage some of them can take and stay standing.

Hence Crazy OOC which has mind over matter pain abilities.

Now the comic series The Authority was very much Justice League, but they kill their opponents. Most panels end with the villain begging, or offering information. The next usually has a foot over them and the comment "We're the Authority". The next panel covered in blood. Then we have Injustice League where they take a decided turn for the worse. In this case the Joker killing Lois Lane which sends Superman into a frenzy.

We also have something in the Amazon series, Invulnerable, death and blood galore.

So while this taking on a tangent, the point really is about OOC classes, and how the Stage Magician does not belong in a modern comic, unless retro in some way.

[Regularguy]

These posts have always been about templates, or OOC. At no point have I mentioned how a character was being played, so where you got that idea I have no idea, heck you even quoted me saying Crazy OOC and Genius in my previous posts when referring to the Joker.

I didn’t miss that you said it; it’s just that I think you’re wrong. I think playing a character as a mastermind, or as crazy, is simply a thing that you or I could do whether the character happens to be a Stage Magician or a Super Sleuth or a Mutant or an Alien or whatever; it’s not that I’m getting that idea from you, it’s that I’m bringing it up.

Maybe you should have a clue about the character you're commenting on - as this is utter rubbish. Batman regularly deals with individuals well out of his weight class.

And regularly gets foiled by mundane crooks who have no special powers.

Why the heck would he even be impressed about a flimflam man like a stage magician. Answer, he wouldn't. Batman has helped deal with multiverse ending forces from the Dark Multiverse and the Batman Who Laughs. Sure he will deal with street level - but they're not really going to impress him very much except for the amount of damage some of them can take.

Which possibly explains why they keep escaping to pull off yet more crimes, as if they’d been underestimated by the unimpressed.

(Come to think of it, there was one comic where, in a room full of super-powered people and Batman, the Joker managed to work a sleight-of-hand substitution to get his hands on the wondrous Philosopher’s Stone and promptly started wreaking havoc with it; IIRC, they needed the Martian Manhunter to save the day. And there was another one where he flimflammed Mxyzptlk out of maybe 99% of his powers; Superman had to save the day that time. And so on.)

[Rogerd]

These posts have always been about templates, or OOC. At no point have I mentioned how a character was being played, so where you got that idea I have no idea, heck you even quoted me saying Crazy OOC and Genius in my previous posts when referring to the Joker.

I didn’t miss that you said it; it’s just that I think you’re wrong. I think playing a character as a mastermind, or as crazy, is simply a thing that you or I could do whether the character happens to be a Stage Magician or a Super Sleuth or a Mutant or an Alien or whatever; it’s not that I’m getting that idea from you, it’s that I’m bringing it up.

Maybe you should have a clue about the character you're commenting on - as this is utter rubbish. Batman regularly deals with individuals well out of his weight class.

And regularly gets foiled by mundane crooks who have no special powers.

Why the heck would he even be impressed about a flimflam man like a stage magician. Answer, he wouldn't. Batman has helped deal with multiverse ending forces from the Dark Multiverse and the Batman Who Laughs. Sure he will deal with street level - but they're not really going to impress him very much except for the amount of damage some of them can take.

Which possibly explains why they keep escaping to pull off yet more crimes, as if they’d been underestimated.

(Come to think of it, there was one comic where, in a room full of super-powered people and Batman, the Joker managed to work a sleight-of-hand substitution to get his hands on the wondrous Philosopher’s Stone and promptly started wreaking havoc with it; IIRC, they needed the Martian Manhunter to save the day. And there was another one where he flimflammed Mxyzptlk out of maybe 99% of his powers; Superman had to save the day that time. And so on.)

1. Anyone can play a character how they like, but I particularly talking about about certain templates.

2. Well, no. He doesn't, except in really old comics. Things that cause him problems are so far above regular crooks it isn't funny. Bane, Ra's Al Ghul being two notables.

3. They are not underestimated by Batman, but by the authorities. The two are not the same. And yes the Joker got most of Mxy's powers. As to some sleight of hand showing a stage mages usefulness, it totally does the exact opposite as it showcases that others can do what a SM can.

[Regularguy]

1. Anyone can play a character how they like, but I particularly talking about about certain templates.

2. Well, no. He doesn't, except in really old comics. Things that cause him problems are so far above regular crooks it isn't funny. Bane, Ra's Al Ghul being two notables.

I already mentioned the Joker and the Penguin; how about the Riddler? What about Two-Face? How many notables are just — guys?

They are not underestimated by Batman, but by the authorities. The two are not the same. And yes the Joker got most of Mxy's powers. As to some sleight of hand showing a stage mages usefulness, it totally does the exact opposite as it showcases that others can do what a SM can.

Well, sure; and others, not just the Super Sleuth, can hack computers; and others, not just the Hunter/Vigilante, can stealth around and use guns. They each just specialize in something that others can also do; if you want to talk about ways to make the SM even better at stuff the SM specializes in, that might be worth looking into. (That said: again, IIRC Batman was right there when the Joker worked a sleight-of-hand trick to get the Philosopher’s Stone; like everyone else in the room, he apparently missed it, as if underestimating the guy.)

[zerombr]

i think this has gotten way off topic, can we just agree that in his own comic Batman generally fights low power characters and tells far more street level stories than his JLU version which has freaking power armor that has the powers of the entire justice league?

[gaby]

All the Abilities from Rifter are Not only Great for Updated Special Training types for HU but for Non-powered characters of PFrpg and BtS too,I may give abilities that fit thier OCC as a reward get to level 5 or higher.

What do you think is the 5 Best Abilities for Each of Special Training types from Rifter 74,Rifter 79,Rifter 81,Rifter 82 and Rifter 83?

Well for exmple from Super-SleuthI think it,s Brutal Interrogation,Capitalizer,,Contacts,Disarm Expertise,Edetic memory.


Do You Want Palladium books to make them can in Training Unlimited?

P.S I do!

[gaby]

All the Special Training type from Rifter are Great,I hope they and the abilities they get will be in Training Unlimited if Palladium books make it.

[matt.reed]

All the Special Training type from Rifter are Great,I hope they and the abilities they get will be in Training Unlimited if Palladium books make it.

Thank you!

[Grammarsalad]

Would anyone buy a book that's made up of the Physical Training, Stage Magician, and Super Sleuth articles from the Rifter, along with similar upgrades for the other Special Training types (Ancient Master, Hunter/Vigilante, and Special Operative), the Ancient Weapon Master from Powers Unlimited 2 (unless that gets folded into the Ancient Master), possibly a few new ones (e.g., Professional Thief), and maybe even something like the Natural Genius from Heroes Unlimited 2 (as a sort of complement to the Physical Training upgrade)? Basically, a book dedicated to heroes who are extraordinary not because of any powers or exotic equipment, but because of the training they've undergone.

Oh, I would. Am I seeing non-superpower related stuff in powers unlimited 2? Ok, I didn't know that wss a thing. I naively assumed it was just superpowers and so never got it. Maybe I should reconsider...

[dataweaver]

Am I seeing non-superpower related stuff in powers unlimited 2? Ok, I didn't know that wss a thing. I naively assumed it was just superpowers and so never got it. Maybe I should reconsider...

Powers Unlimited 2 is primarily a book that introduces more Power Frameworks.

[NMI]

Am I seeing non-superpower related stuff in powers unlimited 2? Ok, I didn't know that wss a thing. I naively assumed it was just superpowers and so never got it. Maybe I should reconsider...

Powers Unlimited 2 is primarily a book that introduces more Power Frameworks.

ACTUALLY..... Powers Unlimited 2 is primarily Character Classes

[dataweaver]

…which, in Heroes Unlimited, are called Power Frameworks.

[Stone Gargoyle]

…which, in Heroes Unlimited, are called Power Frameworks.

No, that's what they call them in Champions. They call them power categories or character classes in Heroes Unlimited.

[dataweaver]

Sorry; I meant “Power Categories”.

[Grammarsalad]

Would anyone buy a book that's made up of the Physical Training, Stage Magician, and Super Sleuth articles from the Rifter, along with similar upgrades for the other Special Training types (Ancient Master, Hunter/Vigilante, and Special Operative), the Ancient Weapon Master from Powers Unlimited 2 (unless that gets folded into the Ancient Master), possibly a few new ones (e.g., Professional Thief), and maybe even something like the Natural Genius from Heroes Unlimited 2 (as a sort of complement to the Physical Training upgrade)? Basically, a book dedicated to heroes who are extraordinary not because of any powers or exotic equipment, but because of the training they've undergone.

I would like that almost as much as a release of Hardware Unlimited. I _really_ like the rewrites in the Rifter. It would be nice to get those rewritten and expanded. Not that they aren't already great, but nothing is prefect and everything can always be improved and added upon.

Edit: lol. Looks like I already responded. Well, I'm x2 now.

Also, I got pu2, and there is some great stuff in there. I particularly like the natural/genius

[matt.reed]

yeah I've been tempted to go back for another go at those, simplify them up a bit, and ensure all mechanics work across all the characters for consistency.

[Grammarsalad]

yeah I've been tempted to go back for another go at those, simplify them up a bit, and ensure all mechanics work across all the characters for consistency.

Exactly! Maybe you should put something together and present it to KS?

[Sambot]

If it's okay to go back to the Stage Magician for a bit.

I think the Stage Magician still works. He, or she, doesn't have to be a great fighter. That isn't where their strength is. It's in misdirection and escapes. If they're getting into fist fights, something went very wrong.

Batman is human. He may have a lot of training and experience but he also has a whole batcave filled with batequipment to help him figure things out. So a Stage Magician, especially a good one, could fool Batman a time or two before Batman catches on. How long will the Stage Magician be operating before even coming to Batman's attention? How long before he sees through all the misdirection to focus on the Stage Magician? Plus not every hero is Batman. If they were, criminals would never break out of prison or the asylum. How long before the Stage Magician escapes to restart his criminal empire?

And why is the Stage Magician always a criminal? Why can't he, or she, be a hero working with Batman to see through other's tricks? Why can't he use his own tricks and skills to foil the bad guys?

I think if anything might make the Stage Magician a dated character class it'd be modern technology. Then again maybe they can use the same technology to their advantage? And I think it's technology that makes Heroes gets a bit dated, not the characters. The same is true of other games too but not every game has to be an exact match of current day Earth, so they still work.

[dataweaver]

One of the examples of the exams Stage Magician write-up was a catburglar, which makes it a perfect match for Catwoman. Note that's effectively a hero these days.

[matt.reed]

I like to think that Batman is every Special Training category. Stealth and misdirection with sleight of hand, cunning detective, high tech hacker, infiltrator of anywhere, master of martial arts, track down anyone and anticipate their actions.

[NMI]

I like to think that Batman is every Special Training category. Stealth and misdirection with sleight of hand, cunning detective, high tech hacker, infiltrator of anywhere, master of martial arts, track down anyone and anticipate their actions.

LOCKING THIS THREAD DUE TO THE CONVERSION TALK.